Conform to My Style or Else!

[dancingalone]

Well, not really in my case, but the thread title was meant to be provocative.

I have a new adult student who has been training with us with 3 classes now. He catches on quickly, as he's trained before in boxing and wrestling. Obviously he has well developed punches, albeit of the boxing type. He tends to rise up on his toes on most of the punches and he also leans into the blows. Which is fine to me. I studied Jhoon Rhee TKD which had quite a bit of boxing influence itself.

His personal style seems to bother the other instructors a bit however. And I noticed they're trying to straighten his back and eliminate the lean when he is learning/practicing Chon-Ji, the first hyung. My inclination is to leave him alone.

Your thoughts? Again as with most of my topics, although the discussion usually involves a personal anecdote, please don't assume necessarily that this is a request for personal advice. Instead, I'd like for this to be more of a general back and forth discussion about the advantages of style conformity vs. individual preference.

[Tez3]

I think it would depend on whether what he was doing was effective or notas to whethr you tried to change it. We have a new guy in our MMA class who stands on his toes all the time to punch, it's not effective at all so we are trying to change it, as you know in MMA we are fairly fluid about style, it tends to be what works for you. This isn't working for him, his punching is very weak so he needs to change it.

It may be an argument of substance over style or a chicken/egg one lol! How important is it to the instructor that the student mirrors each move exactly as he or an instruction book tells them to? Is it the look of the movements that's important or the effectiveness of the technique? Of course this is assuming that the technique is being done correctly despite small variations such as you mention. The instructor could state that he is teaching a precise movement and you have to do it precisely to make it work.

Perhaps it matters more on some techniques than others?

[jks9199]

Balance between the "let it all go" and "must match exactly" approach. Is what he's doing technically sound and does it conform to the principles of your style? Is it simply that he's doing something that comes out in more advanced students and just isn't taught at a beginner level? Or is it against your principles?

When he's doing forms/kata, he has to conform; that's what they're about, of course.

[granfire]

Somewhere in the madness that is a form, there is some system to it.

In Chong-Ji leaning or not is of little consequence. It's a straight forward beginner form.

But the rest builds on it, and sometimes leaning can make it difficult to do the next move.

Some stuff is cosmetic, some stuff is important even though it looks like the former. Kind of hard to tell.

But I don't think most instructors pick on the unimportant things just to picking, after a while in the style, especially with no prior experience it's the thing to do. In grained, like breathing.

I did find myself noticing the differences instructors can develop in the same form.
the tournaments were a fun thing for that.

[miguksaram]

It seems when it comes to you forms, he should adhere to proper body positioning and movement. Remember he is learning a different style of fighting so he should be prepared to make some adjustments in how he executes techniques. This doesn't mean a total overhaul on how he does things, but, as I mentioned, when it comes to the forms, he needs to do it the way you teach.

It would equivalent to me going into my karate class and executing everything in a taekwondo style, including my forms. Why bother joining another system if you are not willing to make some changes in what you do?

[Daniel Sullivan]

His personal style seems to bother the other instructors a bit however. And I noticed they're trying to straighten his back and eliminate the lean when he is learning/practicing Chon-Ji, the first hyung. My inclination is to leave him alone.
Tough call. I'd say that while he is training taekwondo, he should learn to punch according to the style. I was a proficient epee fencer prior to my study of kumdo. But part of learning kumdo was learning kumdo, not doing epee techniques with a bamboo sword.

In this case, rather than change the punches in his arsenal, he needs to add taekwondo punches to his arsenal.

Daniel

[StudentCarl]

I think it's possible to try to correct too many things at once, which can be overwhelming. It does take time to adjust one's movement to a different system. With beginners we focus on the core (critical few) ideas and coach the details over time as the student learns. If posture is a core idea, then emphasize it earlier. If it's more a matter of fine-tuning, then let the student get more reps with the core ideas first. Maybe the discussion to have is what is core vs. fine tuning at this student's experience level.

[ForeverStudent]

Taekwondo tuls is fully - defined, in centimeters. Other Taekwondo disciplines are less, but still defined (breaking,self defense, sparring..). There as i was learned is necessary to add personality.

But tuls are strictly defined set of movements.

I am not so familiar with english, so i don't know what it means "raising the toes". It maybe means that while in long stance (gunnun sogi chumbi) he raises his rear foot from the ground while punching or blocking. In my club it is considered as mistake and completely inproper stance.

My opinnion - there should be no changes to tuls. If he learns it wrong later it will be harder to fix.

[Tez3]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

[granfire]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

Not one bit alike :lol:

[FieldDiscipline]

Remember he is learning a different style of fighting so he should be prepared to make some adjustments in how he executes techniques. This doesn't mean a total overhaul on how he does things, but, as I mentioned, when it comes to the forms, he needs to do it the way you teach.

It would equivalent to me going into my karate class and executing everything in a taekwondo style, including my forms. Why bother joining another system if you are not willing to make some changes in what you do?

I'd be inclined to echo those sentiments.

[miguksaram]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

Hard to say...I hold the belief that if we met up, we would be too busy buying rounds at the nearest bar. Now afterwards...we would all have the same movements. ;)

But in all honesty, I believe those of us who are KKW would have a similar (not exact) type of movement. This would differ due to various body types, age, and other martial art experiences that will creep up no matter how hard you try. This, would hold the same of the ITF people as well. They would have a good base of similarity in their techniques with outside factor supply some of the differences.

[granfire]

Hard to say...I hold the belief that if we met up, we would be too busy buying rounds at the nearest bar. Now afterwards...we would all have the same movements. ;)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I bet!


But in all honesty, I believe those of us who are KKW would have a similar (not exact) type of movement. This would differ due to various body types, age, and other martial art experiences that will creep up no matter how hard you try. This, would hold the same of the ITF people as well. They would have a good base of similarity in their techniques with outside factor supply some of the differences.

Well, I have seen huge differences in the organization, working from the same book, descending supposedly from the same Masters...

[dancingalone]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

If we can take the hyung performances on Youtube as representative samples, I'm afraid the state of TKD is very much fragmented today. I'm not talking about the little kid forms either; I mean the official regional, national, and world championships held by the WTF, ITF, ATA, GTF, etc.

It's quite interesting to see the 'genetic drift' considering the forms pretty much started from the same seed parents. Kind of like watching someone in Shotokan perform Heian Yondan and comparing it with someone from Chito-ryu doing Pinan Yondan.

[FieldDiscipline]

This, would hold the same of the ITF people as well.

To sine wave or not to sine wave?

-- ducks -- .

[ATC]

I would say correct him. TKD is a system that works best if done as the system have been developed.

The best in anything are the ones that understand why it is what they are doing and can do it precisely.

If you do not correct him now he will keep bad habits that seem great when isolated but once he is to fight or defend himself he may find that transitions from one technique to another will leave him out of position, slow, open, and defenseless.

When correcting him I would only fix one, two at most, techniques at a time.

[StudentCarl]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

Two good things would happen:

First we'd have to match techniques to definitions. i.e. "To me this is a roundhouse kick."

Second, we'd have interesting discussions about where and why we agree and disagree. i.e. "I bring the kicking knee straight forward and up when chambering."

The second part would be very interesting if we focus on mechanics and efficiency, and not "this is how my GM taught it so it is the one true way."

[Flying Crane]

Do you believe in your system? Do you believe that it is sound and it works?

He came to you to learn from you. Teach him YOUR system.

If he wants to do it "boxing" style, if that works better for him, then he can go train in a boxing gym. Why then train with you?

[StudentCarl]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

I suspect we'd be more alike than different because I think that we tend over time to adapt to move in more efficient ways.

Two good things would happen:

First we'd have to match techniques to definitions. i.e. "To me this is a roundhouse kick."

Second, we'd have interesting discussions about where and why we agree and disagree. i.e. "I bring the kicking knee straight forward and up when chambering."

The second part would be very interesting if we focus on mechanics and efficiency, and not "this is how my GM taught it so it is the one true way."

[Earl Weiss]

Many Moons ago when the easrth was still cooling and dinasoars roamed, a talented instructor told me about his training with different instructors and their different ways of doing things.

His view which I have adopted was that by being able to do whatever a particular instructor wanted helped him develop and become a good martial artist. So, the student needs to understand this. If he chooses not to try and perform as the instructor dicates, than why is he their in the first place.

I have had transfers students with different oulokks varying from their instructor walks and water and should be followed without question. I think someone on this board expressed a similar sentiment. If someone is visiting for a finite period and will be retuning to their main instructor. I may explain what and why we do something differently but will not suggest that they change.

I have also had excellent transfers who I have told about differences and said that I would not suggest they change and their response was that in my Gym I am their instructor and they will perform as I instruct. IMNSHO that is a good student. That being said, I am always open to questions.

[Tez3]

Do you believe in your system? Do you believe that it is sound and it works?

He came to you to learn from you. Teach him YOUR system.

If he wants to do it "boxing" style, if that works better for him, then he can go train in a boxing gym. Why then train with you?


He may not want to do it boxing style but if he's been boxing for a long while it will be instinctive and not a reflection of how he feels about TKD.

[chrispillertkd]

Well, not really in my case, but the thread title was meant to be provocative.

I have a new adult student who has been training with us with 3 classes now. He catches on quickly, as he's trained before in boxing and wrestling. Obviously he has well developed punches, albeit of the boxing type. He tends to rise up on his toes on most of the punches and he also leans into the blows. Which is fine to me. I studied Jhoon Rhee TKD which had quite a bit of boxing influence itself.

His personal style seems to bother the other instructors a bit however. And I noticed they're trying to straighten his back and eliminate the lean when he is learning/practicing Chon-Ji, the first hyung. My inclination is to leave him alone.

Your thoughts? Again as with most of my topics, although the discussion usually involves a personal anecdote, please don't assume necessarily that this is a request for personal advice. Instead, I'd like for this to be more of a general back and forth discussion about the advantages of style conformity vs. individual preference.

If this gentleman is your student, not someone who's just training with you while on vacation, then I'd think you'd want him conforming to the technical standard you've established for your class. If he's doing something different and the other students see that you're not correcting him why wouldn't they think it's OK for them to do different things, too? Then you'd have to tell them to follow your instruction while at the same time leaving this new student to do what he wants. it might not be a big deal but it is a double standard which some students will see.

He's spending time in class to have you teach him. Why not teach him what you've taught the other students?

Pax,

Chris

[Flying Crane]

He may not want to do it boxing style but if he's been boxing for a long while it will be instinctive and not a reflection of how he feels about TKD.


sure, that's not disputed. But he if he trains in your school, he needs to be correct to do it your way. Not correcting him doesn't do him any favors when trying to learn your system.

[Tez3]

sure, that's not disputed. But he if he trains in your school, he needs to be correct to do it your way. Not correcting him doesn't do him any favors when trying to learn your system.


Isn't it going to be confusing though if some instructors do correct him and others don't? There's going to have to be a consensus among the instructors about what is taught. A meeting perhaps to discuss how training is to go forward? Would the chief instructor over rule the others if he felt it was okay to leave him to his boxing style even though the other instructors would prefer to correct him? Is the training of one person worth risking a rift even a small one among instructors? Perhaps the style comes first?
I'm going here with the OP who says he doesn't want advice so much as discussion.

[Flying Crane]

Isn't it going to be confusing though if some instructors do correct him and others don't?


of course it will. that's an obvious problem.



There's going to have to be a consensus among the instructors about what is taught. A meeting perhaps to discuss how training is to go forward?


sure.




Would the chief instructor over rule the others if he felt it was okay to leave him to his boxing style even though the other instructors would prefer to correct him?


yup, he runs the show. But it runs the danger of making the other staff question just what the hell are we teaching here anyway? If the teaching staff isn't versed in boxing technique, and a student is allowed to use boxing technique, I see a whole list of problems arising. Does he get to practice kata with "boxing" punches in it?



Is the training of one person worth risking a rift even a small one among instructors? Perhaps the style comes first?


I say, Nope, and Yup.

To me, the answer to this discussion is really really obvious. You come to me to learn something, you do it like I tell you even if that means changing what you've been doing before. If you don't want to change, then go elsewhere. Why would you come to learn from me if you don't want to do it like I teach it?

You don't have to throw away what you have already learned. Just file it away and keep it separate. On your own time, do that other stuff, no problem. But when you train with me, when you practice the stuff I'm teaching you, you do it the way I tell you and show you.

I really don't see any wiggle room for that.

honestly, if I started trying to do my White Crane like kenpo, and saying, "hey, this is my old habit, and I'm just gonna do it like this...", I'd be laughed right out the door by Sifu and the other students and that would be the end of my white crane training. Why would I waste everyone's time with something like that?

[Gorilla]

My kids are currently cross training in Shotokan. The approach that the Sensei is taking has been to add Shotokan to their arsenal. He is not changing the way they kick. He has certainly increased their ability to punch. The reverse punch is one Tech that has improved exponentially. His approach is "don't change what they are good at(TKD) add new techniques(Shotokan). When Sensei Hidaharu Igaki evaluated them he agreed with that philosophy. The x training had been excellent. We picked a very good instructor Hiroshi Allen.

[girlbug2]

He may not want to do it boxing style but if he's been boxing for a long while it will be instinctive and not a reflection of how he feels about TKD.

True. It took me forever to retrain from the "forward bow" fighting stance of EPAK to the more boxing style stance of Krav. I'm glad my instructors were both patient and persistent with me.

[Tony49]

I tend to let people keep their old Techniques provide they are done correctly. For example I teach kenpo so our kicks are generally not up to par with TKD kicks. So when I get a TKD practitioner in I tend to leave their kicks alone if done correctly by their standards. However, most of their punches are not up to par so I show them how we punch in Kenpo. the difference is I usually don't tell them to forget their old punch just add a new punch to their arsenal. However, if you can explain you version well enough most people will migrate to what they deem as the better technique. Who knows they might be able to explain there version better causing you to change your technique. An example of this for me was the hook punch. I was taught with the palm of your fist parallel to the ground, however, a boxing guy should me that having the palm perpendicular to the ground prevent the chance of getting a boxing fracture. This caused me to change my hook punch. It still a hook punch but now a safer one in my opinion.

[ForeverStudent]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

Sorry, i spoted this right now. That happens when i don't subscribe :(

I think there would be differences. Under ITF i train (president Choi Jung Hwa) students up to III. degree are categorized as novice, so i think that mistakes and misunderstanding of moves are expectable. At higher levels not so much, if at all.

I have been at seminars at most respected and highest ranked master in my federation, and they all teach the same (except two of them who have some different view at what is the purpose of one move in one tul, but we speaking just about one move.) If everybody just listened to them and disalowed wrong interpretation of moves purpose, there woulnd't by any difference.

I mean, there would be differences, but not beacause taekwondo isn't defined, but because inproper teaching (which will always exist).

But again i think there wouldn't be too much differences if we meet!

[Gorilla]

I tend to let people keep their old Techniques provide they are done correctly. For example I teach kenpo so our kicks are generally not up to par with TKD kicks. So when I get a TKD practitioner in I tend to leave their kicks alone if done correctly by their standards. However, most of their punches are not up to par so I show them how we punch in Kenpo. the difference is I usually don't tell them to forget their old punch just add a new punch to their arsenal. However, if you can explain you version well enough most people will migrate to what they deem as the better technique. Who knows they might be able to explain there version better causing you to change your technique. An example of this for me was the hook punch. I was taught with the palm of your fist parallel to the ground, however, a boxing guy should me that having the palm perpendicular to the ground prevent the chance of getting a boxing fracture. This caused me to change my hook punch. It still a hook punch but now a safer one in my opinion.
Great Post

[miguksaram]

I tend to let people keep their old Techniques provide they are done correctly. For example I teach kenpo so our kicks are generally not up to par with TKD kicks. So when I get a TKD practitioner in I tend to leave their kicks alone if done correctly by their standards.
Do you know what their standards are?