What is your first response to pain (physical)?

[Supra Vijai]

Hi everyone. We all accept that if we ever end up in a real confrontation (fight/situation), odds are pretty good that the longer you are in it, the better the chances are that you're going to get hit/kicked/taken down/cut etc. In class, we discuss what the effects are going to be, such as the adrenaline and it's effects, and the psychology of getting hit, but in the dojo it's always with a degree of safety. When hard punches are thrown, you typically know beforehand, and you're wearing protective gear or stable and guarding correctly. So my question is, how do you realistically think you'd react to getting hit hard, hard enough to cause pain? I've experienced it once or twice, and found that my immediate reaction was to respond in kind whereas a friend of mine's first response is to freeze and burst out laughing (yes she's a little weird :)), so I was just wondering what everyone else's experiences were, or their thoughts as to how they think they would react.

I find my response tends to change depending on the situation though, in the dojo or with training partners, my brain becomes analytical and I try pinpoint where it hurts and why so I know how the technique is meant to feel, where the targets are etc, with friends and family etc my response is to take it as a joke and playfight back, in any other circumstances though, there is a split second delay while I process what's happened and the cause and then I react hard and fast (not always skilled though). Does this seem fairly normal to everyone?

If anyone can suggest any drills or training methods to better prepare for this, that'd be great too. Thanks!

[altc]

Hi there Supra.

I have actually previously done some research on this matter, particularly as it comes to getting stabbed with a knife. Believe it or not, many people get stabbed with a knife and do not even feel it until after when they notice blood on themselves. One particular person even had a knife sticking out of her back and did not realise until she got home!!!

In a real situation, the human body is under the effects of adrenaline. This is what contributes to things such as slow motion time and tunnel vision. What also happens under this stress is the body pulls the blood away from its extremities to limit bleeding. The side effect of this is that it limits fine motor control. That is partly why only gross motor skills work under pressure.

It is partly due to this pulling of the blood away from the extremities to limit bleeding that contributes to the body feeling very little pain during a real encounter. The pain recepters sending messages to the brain are also ignored as that function does not contribute to surviving the situation.

This ignoring of some functions and enhancement of others also contributes to some combat veterans making messes in their pants. This happened regularly during WW1 and WW11 studiess have found, particularly Grossman has been presenting these findings.

The link to my article I did that pain is not felt even from knife attacks can be found below as well if you are interested,
http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/02/can-you-be-stabbed-with-knife-and-not.html

Hope all that helps.

[oaktree]

Real simple accept it and hit him harder.

[Supra Vijai]

Real simple accept it and hit him harder.

lol not quite what I was asking but thanks :P

[oaktree]

lol not quite what I was asking but thanks


:shrug:

[Chris Parker]

Hi Supra,

I'd simply echo what altc has already said, you'll find that what he says there is also what you hear in class. I'd also agree with Oaktree as well, after all you asked what peoples primary response to "physical" pain is, and his is to hit harder. That's genuinely a very good mindset to have, bearing in mind that the effects of adrenaline means you won't necessarily experience things as "pain" in an encounter, having an attitude of "whatever they do, I come back harder" is a very good mindset for you to explore.

Essentially, it comes down to not getting flustered by being hit, and not letting yourself get "shut down" by it, which happens to many martial artists who are not used to contact. I'd go back and think again about exactly what he was saying....

[Bruno@MT]

I have some idea, but I have no real life real-fight experience, just so you know.

During our first public demo, I was filled with adrenalin. At one point my arm nearly got pulled form the shoulder socket. Both arms actually, but the right even worse than the left. When it happened I knew it was not good but I just kept on going. At that point I didn't feel any pain at all.

I stayed charged with adrenalin right until after the very last part of the demo. I even carried tatami from the demo area. And then I started to unwind and man oh man did my arms hurt. My triceps on both arms were damaged, and when I tried changing out of my keikogi, I discovered that I could not lift my arms above waist height, not with all the will in the world. I could not lift my t-shirt over my head and had to ask someone to help me with that. After getting my arm in a sling, I drove home in 3d gear because I did not want to change gears at all. I spent the couple of hours after that just sitting in the sofa with ice on my arms.

Sometime later I saw the video footage of that demo, and the expression on the faces of the crowd told me the same thing that I felt afterwards. I also saw myself getting piled into the tatami full force with ganseki nage, and I didn't feel a thing then.

So imo it is perfectly possible to get through the fight and ignoring pain that would have you incapacitated in normal circumstances.

[Rayban]

Hi all,

Post number one. Go me!

Its funny how adrenalin works with the body, but also what it does to the mind. To train the body to cope with adrenalin I've found fairly straight forward (calmed down and pumping up). But training the mind to cope with the stresses of whatever the situation is a bit more difficult.

One aspect of this that I have recently been able to get a grasp of under adrenalin is using my peripheral vision, which I try to use as often as I can.

But following on from Oaktree and Chris' comments, a "fighting philosophy" is needed to keep the mind on track. Focussing is not an issue in a fight, it's what adrenalin does. The issue is trying to not let that focus become tunnel vision because of your emotional state.

My philosophy on this way back in the day was "Fight until you cannot physically move anymore" which relies on the effects of adrenalin.
As was said earlier, you are numb to pain, can move faster and are stronger, meaning you can hold your own in a fight longer so long as it's maintained (or you aren't killed).

After training and a fair bit of growing up I've learned that this philosophy, though poetic and romantic, only really applies in certain situations. But that’s just me speaking from my own experiences.

[Supra Vijai]

I wasn't trying to dismiss or detract from Oaktree's comment in the slightest. I understand the mentality well, as I said in my topic starter, my first response is often to turn and strike back (usually with a soku yaku from experience). My apologies to Oaktree if that was the impression given as well. I guess I was a little ambiguous in my original phrazing of the question. What I guess I am really asking is if people have a set response to pain in every situation (violent or otherwise) or whether the situation dictates the response.

Bruno, that's really quite interesting that not only did you not feel anything during the technique, but it lasted until after you had carried the tatami away and started to unwind! I would have thought you would have been unwinding a lot earlier than that myself but then I have never been in a demonstration or similar situation. Just checking though, did you feel anything or did your concious mind shut down to all levels of pain?

Rayban, how were you the first post if you referenced the others? :| Thanks for your comment though! That's an interesting take on focus and adrenaline. Just checking something though, what do you mean by " Focussing is not an issue in a fight, it's what adrenalin does"? Isn't adrenaline meant to be as debilitating as it is useful in terms of making you stronger, faster, hit harder?

[Supra Vijai]

wait... never mind, you meant it was your first post! Duh!

[Sifu Chambers]

In martial arts we train for self defense, which also means we train to hit back if needed. However, it is equaly important to train your body to take punches or kicks. In Kajukenbo we train for this through Kiya drills or what I like to call contact conditioning drills. It is true that when someone gets hit that is not used to it, then most people will find the pain to have a shocking effect. So if you practice contact conditioning then your body will be coditioned to take a punch or kick. It is also important to work your way up to stronger conditioning. Start off with light contact and work your body to take more contact as you progress. It is also important to insure safety through knowing where to apply ontact conditioning to areas such as the abdomen, forearms and thighs. You do not want to hit ribs, sternum or other vital areas. Another good aspect of Kajukenbo is that when we train in our defensive drills we allow a little contact. Again, not to vital areas, but to areas that allow the student to develope body conditioning without injury. It is Kajukenbo's philosophy to train in the dojo as real as possible to insure that all aspects of self defense is covered for the street, to include getting hit. I hope this helps. Sifu CC

[Master Dan]

In martial arts we train for self defense, which also means we train to hit back if needed. However, it is equaly important to train your body to take punches or kicks. In Kajukenbo we train for this through Kiya drills or what I like to call contact conditioning drills. It is true that when someone gets hit that is not used to it, then most people will find the pain to have a shocking effect. So if you practice contact conditioning then your body will be coditioned to take a punch or kick. It is also important to work your way up to stronger conditioning. Start off with light contact and work your body to take more contact as you progress. It is also important to insure safety through knowing where to apply ontact conditioning to areas such as the abdomen, forearms and thighs. You do not want to hit ribs, sternum or other vital areas. Another good aspect of Kajukenbo is that when we train in our defensive drills we allow a little contact. Again, not to vital areas, but to areas that allow the student to develope body conditioning without injury. It is Kajukenbo's philosophy to train in the dojo as real as possible to insure that all aspects of self defense is covered for the street, to include getting hit. I hope this helps. Sifu CC

I would also like to bring up the issue of people taking contact to areas on the meridians and conception points even in protected sparing or self defense manipulation that people should understand that different areas are more severe in effect on the person being hit based on the time of day or how the body cycles on a 12 hour basis different for each area.

Now some people say this is phooey well today a very good international study was published and people in France are having thier Chemo Theropy adminstered based on thier time cycle of 4am and 4 pm. The results are outstanding with 5 times the number of healthy cells not being killed and twice the number of Cancer cells being killed while at the same time the effects from the theropy on the person is dramatically reduced. So if healing is accomplished by the cycles of energy the reverse is also true for the destructive cycle.

I believe in contact conditioning especially for people to be able to deal with stress related to adrenalin dump in self defense but it does make one consider as a teacher depending on whats planned what are the effects possible a few hours later or even long term related to whats being taught at that particular moment?

[Sifu Chambers]

I would also like to bring up the issue of people taking contact to areas on the meridians and conception points even in protected sparing or self defense manipulation that people should understand that different areas are more severe in effect on the person being hit based on the time of day or how the body cycles on a 12 hour basis different for each area.

Now some people say this is phooey well today a very good international study was published and people in France are having thier Chemo Theropy adminstered based on thier time cycle of 4am and 4 pm. The results are outstanding with 5 times the number of healthy cells not being killed and twice the number of Cancer cells being killed while at the same time the effects from the theropy on the person is dramatically reduced. So if healing is accomplished by the cycles of energy the reverse is also true for the destructive cycle.

I believe in contact conditioning especially for people to be able to deal with stress related to adrenalin dump in self defense but it does make one consider as a teacher depending on whats planned what are the effects possible a few hours later or even long term related to whats being taught at that particular moment? So what you are saying is that it is best to conduct contact conditioning durring certain times of the day?

[Supra Vijai]

....based on the time of day or how the body cycles on a 12 hour basis different for each area.

I believe in contact conditioning especially for people to be able to deal with stress related to adrenalin dump in self defense but it does make one consider as a teacher depending on whats planned what are the effects possible a few hours later or even long term related to whats being taught at that particular moment?

This is really interesting. How would one go about finding out their particular body clock/energy cycle?

[Chris Parker]

The concept of biorythms is pretty well established. The most well known form is the female monthly cycle, but that is just one of many. Other cycles are very common, but so common that they aren't "noticed", such as sleep cycles. Interestingly enough, it was found in a few studies that without external stimulus, people tend to naturally fall into a 25 hour cycle, rather than the expected 24 hour one.

Guys have their own as well, and some theories have cycles within hours, a day, a week, a month, six weeks, and so on. I actually did a little study involving this when studying statistics years ago...

[Supra Vijai]

Yeah I was aware of circadian rythms - mostly in terms of sleep cycles and how they are affected by zeitgebers such as daylight but not in the context of body conditioning training. Where would I find more information on the particular effects that could be had on different parts of the body at different times?

[Chris Parker]

Look to Traditional Chinese Medicine sources, it's a big part of that. Remember, even we recommend doing things like hand conditioning at the same time each day, preferably either early in the morning or late at night (not in the middle of the day).

[Supra Vijai]

Will do with the Chinese medicine reading! I've haven't actually taken up any body conditioning programs as yet so I'm afraid that's a bit of info I didn't have before. I do suppose it's the same principle as going to the gym at the same time each time and the like. Purely out of luck/thanks to my work schedule any training I do with regards to martial arts happens to fall in the same sort of time frame as that of a class so it's not something I've paid conscious attention to in terms of effects from training at different times.

Thanks for that! Something new for me to get into and try expand my knowledge :)

[Sifu Chambers]

Not trying to attack or be disrespectful..but should we not train for contact conditioning at all hours? I mean we train in the dojo as it might happen on the street. We will not be able to tell our attacker "Wait, do'nt attack me, come back at 4PM and we can try this again." Please help me to understand the logic. With humble respect. Sifu CC

[Supra Vijai]

Sifu, I'm taking a guess here as I haven't had the chance to read up on the subject in great amounts of detail yet but it may be a case of some times of the day are better to train than others as you are more receptive to certain stimulus. In a street situation yes you can't "schedule" your attacker to come back at a certain time but hopefully by then you're body will be conditioned enough to handle it.

I may be completely incorrect with this guess so please don't hold me to it.

[Bruno@MT]

Not trying to attack or be disrespectful..but should we not train for contact conditioning at all hours? I mean we train in the dojo as it might happen on the street. We will not be able to tell our attacker "Wait, do'nt attack me, come back at 4PM and we can try this again." Please help me to understand the logic. With humble respect. Sifu CC

Personally, I don't think so. Training for contact is only part of it. You can't do that at every moment of your training or you won't focus on the other things. Learning flow, correct body positioning, position of the feet, etc... we train these with no or light contact, repeatedly, and initially even very slow.

Only when the movements have become natural do we drive up the speed.
If you train for hard contact always, the risk is that people will start cutting corners, just to avoid getting hit. And every time you teach somethign new, there is a higher risk of injury because people will make mistakes and take a full force punch or kick.

[billcihak]

My former Iaido instructor was in the Millitary police in the airforce and was stabbed in the back during a fight. He would hit us with the bottom of his fist in the back and tell us that was what if felt like at the time. He didn't know he had been stabbed right away.

[Supra Vijai]

Thanks for that, again I understand that under adrenaline you feel less pain etc but What is the reaction? Do people tend to freeze with the shock? Do you hit back and lash out? Do you ignore it and keep moving?

[billcihak]

When I talk to someone who has been injured in some way I always ask them about how bad it hurt, and what they did immediately after the injury. I have a guy where I work who tore the tendons in his knee. He said the pain was immediate and he fell down and needed help to deal with the injury. My brother is a cop and during the arrest of a drunk suspect riding a bicycle, he got his foot trapped between the bike and the curb. When he pulled the suspect off the bike it twisted and broke his ankle. They both fell to the ground and my brother said for a second or two he was frozen in reaction. Luckily the guy was not an immediate threat. If he had been I wonder how that may have changed my brothers reaction.

[Supra Vijai]

Thanks, that sort of thing is what I was after. It's interesting that even someone with exposure to the street has the freeze response when experiencing sudden pain

[Cirdan]

Ignore it and focus on the situation. If the situation is threatening I will allow it to fuel my destructive side a bit.

If you get punched hard in the face you will likely freeze for a second, not because of the pain but because the world goes BAM and black.

[Supra Vijai]

Ignore it and focus on the situation. If the situation is threatening I will allow it to fuel my destructive side a bit.

If you get punched hard in the face you will likely freeze for a second, not because of the pain but because the world goes BAM and black.

Dare I ask? :)

In class we talk a lot about the flinch response and also how sometimes you just don't have the time to flinch, we learn that it's inevitable and try work with it. However the freeze response from my understanding is something that you can drill out?

[Rayban]

Hi Supra,

I'm a little "iffy" on drilling out a frozen flinch response to being punched in the face. Yes adrenalin and "flinch conditioning" help heaps but your face contains 4 of your 5 senses.

You hear a loud and stunning thud that lingers
You see a fist then blackness (eyes take time to adjust to the vision-blind-vision again moment)
I'm not too sure on taste and smell but everytime i've been hit sufficiently hard in the face all I can taste is metal (blood) and not smell much.

This all takes a toll on the mind because almost every sense is blanketed. An analogy would be:

"If you remove all the inputs to a computer, the system must restart"

Bear in mind I'm talking about a hard hit; not a disrupter (quick jab). I've found I can wear most disrupters usually because they are so light on power compared to a hard hit.

[Supra Vijai]

Hi Supra,

I'm a little "iffy" on drilling out a frozen flinch response to being punched in the face. Yes adrenalin and "flinch conditioning" help heaps but your face contains 4 of your 5 senses.

You hear a loud and stunning thud that lingers
You see a fist then blackness (eyes take time to adjust to the vision-blind-vision again moment)
I'm not too sure on taste and smell but everytime i've been hit sufficiently hard in the face all I can taste is metal (blood) and not smell much.

This all takes a toll on the mind because almost every sense is blanketed. An analogy would be:

"If you remove all the inputs to a computer, the system must restart"

Bear in mind I'm talking about a hard hit; not a disrupter (quick jab). I've found I can wear most disrupters usually because they are so light on power compared to a hard hit.

Hi Rayban,

Obviously safe training is implied. Throw on a head guard, a mouth guard and some hand mitts and train with people you know. I'm not talking about getting smacked in the head with a baseball bat till you learn to "deal" with it. I've been in a couple of fights in my time (unfortunately) and with adrenaline I've never blacked out or lost any of my senses. I will agree with the tasting blood thing but aside from that, there's been a time - my 19th birthday when I went to pick up some pizza for the party actually - where I got jumped by a group of guys who thought I looked at one of them wrong and ended up on the ground with my head being stomped on. I'd had no training at that time so my only reaction was to try move away and get up, but I was fully conscious/aware the entire time.

With regards to the analogy, have to say that if you remove the inputs to a computer it just means that you can't type or move your pointer, doesn't cut the power :P

[Cirdan]

Dare I ask? :)

If you are refering to the destructive bit, this is about flicking "the combat switch" in your mind. In order to defend yourself from violent attack you must be willing to cause damage so that person will no longer function. You must want to get home in one piece no matter what the cost. I imagine how you deal with this may be different from person to person.


In class we talk a lot about the flinch response and also how sometimes you just don't have the time to flinch, we learn that it's inevitable and try work with it. However the freeze response from my understanding is something that you can drill out?

The flinch response to getting attacked/swung at, sure.

Dealing with pain I think is just done by focusing your mind. However there are bodily reflexes you can`t drill out because they don`t involve the brain. Like when you burn your finger on a hotplate and pull it away without thinking.

The momentary blackout from a solid punch to the face, nope. What Rayan says describes what it is like very well. Again, it is not about the pain. I have for instance been slapped in the face with belts, something that was quite easy to block out in comparison. Some parts of the head like the back and top are obviously more solid than face front/sides, hits there are more likely to just leave you dizzy.

[Supra Vijai]

Cirdan, that makes sense, it's like in sport where winning or losing is a case of who wants it more.

As you said everyone's reactions will be different hence this thread in the first place :) My reply to Rayban was quite candid as we know each other outside the forum/training quite well for a few years now and was based solely on my own experiences in real fight situations.

[K-man]

Although I'm a little beyond tournament fighting now, and don't believe it to be of benefit in the real world self defence situation, it does give some insight as to how you might react in a live situation. In my first tournament, about thirty years ago, when a fair bit of contact was not only allowed but expected, I fought through to the final without a problem. Only after when I got in the car to drive home did I find the broken toe and quite a number of other painful areas. I have no idea when those injuries occurred as I didn't feel a thing. On another occassion, sparring in the dojo, which was a regular occurrance, an over exhuberant blackbelt slipped one past my guard into my ribs, 'snap'. Boy, did that hurt. No adrenaline present and instant pain.
As to how you can condition. We have certain drills where we stand in a circle and take turns to strike each other (torso obviously) to build a tolerance to firm contact. We also incorporate the hitting conditioning practised by the systema guys where one person is in the middle of a circle and those around hit whatever torso part they can as you keep moving. As you never know where you will be hit next, you just keep moving, defending against any strike you see coming and ignoring the punches that come from behind. This drill helps keep you relaxed, as the last thing you want to be, when hit hard, is tense. Another systema drill is with a partner, walking past each other. As you come in range, in goes a quick jab to the midriff. Trick is again, don't tense up. Just absorb the blow.
It all depends on the schools now as to how much contact is allowed. Those with 'no contact' rules are pretty useless in a self defence sense. :asian:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Fighting hurts.

Suck it up and move on.

If you are training and you get some pain, unless something stops working, keep going.

If you stop or flinch for every boo boo, you will be easy to beat.

[Supra Vijai]

Thanks for the detailed reply K-Man, it remains consistent with the concept/belief that adrenaline makes you stronger, faster and feel less pain (at the time anyway :D)

It also answers the question in a non violent sense in that you covered that while sparring within the dojo, the pain was instant so your reactions would obviously be different.