Re:Parker/Tracy linage [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

donald

02-09-2002, 02:45 PM

To Whom It May Concern,
Just a general observation regarding the abovementioned caption. If you are a student/instructor of "Tracy's Kenpo". Would'nt you ultimately be linked to the "Parker" line? If the Tracy's were trained, and promoted by Mr.Parker this has to hold true. I know that eventually the 2 went their seperate ways, but that does'nt change the facts! The Tracy camp claimed for years that what they taught as kenpo, was what they were originally taught by Mr.Parker. Hence the claims of "traditional" kenpo. It seems to me that people tend to ignore these WELL documented considerations! Some even seem to go out of their way to try, and discredit the opposing camps. When in reality if you attempt to discredit Mr.Parker's skill etc.. You are in effect discrediting YOUR system. On the other hand if you attempt to discredit the Tracy camp. You are again discrediting your own system. Most may try to deny that the 2 systems bear more resemblences than differences. In reality you can not... Although they DO have theoretical, and applicational differences. They come from the same root!!! Are there any who can, or would refute these facts? Lets hear it!!! :asian:

Sanxiawuyi

02-09-2002, 05:39 PM

I am not sure where you are getting your info, but as I have been involved with the martial arts for over seventeen years and been with the Tracy system for at great deal of that time, so I can give my opinion.

The Tracy brother’s, Jim and Al, have always traced their direct lineage back to Mr. Parker. Always. The ongoing debate has been concerning the linage before Mr. Parker, i.e. Chow, Mitose, etc…

It wasn’t the 2; it was three (Al & Jim) that went separate ways. Many have disputed the black belt claims of the Tracy brothers, but they are listed in Mr. Parkers Family Tree (Certificates dated January 7, 1962), Al Tracy was on Mr. Parker’s demo team and did all the breaking, etc…

The Tracy brothers wanted to continue teaching the KKAA curriculum, Mr. Parker wanted the IKKA.

Al Tracy has said nothing but praise about Mr. Parkers martial arts capability, and everything I have heard from him has been pay tribute to what an amazing martial artist Mr. Parker was.

I have never understood why the American Kenpo camps have held so much animosity towards Tracy Kenpoist. I understand most of the grief comes from an old website by another Tracy brother, but that doesn’t reflect all the Kenpoist in the Tracy Kenpo organization!

When I moved to a city that didn’t have any Tracy schools I studied at an American studio for some time. I fit-in perfectly well, had no problems at all and found the techniques and forms practically identical. Most students where amazed as they thought they were entirely different systems, they didn’t realize how closely related we are.

You may not, for whatever reasons you have, to consider Tracy Kenpo a sister/brother system of American Kenpo, but Tracy’s is a Very close relative.

Sincerely,
Sanxiawuyi
The Kenpo Exchange (http://www.freewebz.com/kenpoexchange/)

:asian:

Blindside

02-09-2002, 08:09 PM

"I understand most of the grief comes from an old website by another Tracy brother, but that doesn’t reflect all the Kenpoist in the Tracy Kenpo organization!"

Uh, that "old website" was the official Tracy page. And based off of the #@R@$ that was on it, any American Kenpoist would be justified in being pissed off. There was the "realignment" of Tracy kenpo through Bruce Juchnik to have an offical Mitose link, the "Parker used kenpo as a Morman recruitment tool," the "Tracy's invent the color belt system," and the "where did Ed Parker get his black belt page." I understand that these pages were blamed on Will Tracy, and are now history, but that they were posted on the official page (for years) places the blame squarely on both involved Tracy brothers.

Incidentally, I don't believe that the web page was the instigation of bad feelings between the two systems. The two systems shared a more intense rivalry because of the similarity and their competition for students could only drive a wedge between the two systems. Each system had to say why they were better than the other.

I hate politics.

Lamont

GouRonin

02-09-2002, 08:36 PM

I have a tracy friend I still tease about the tracy sex cult.

But really, who cares?

Over the long run, as long as you are happy with your art the rest can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it up their @ss.

:D

Sanxiawuyi

02-09-2002, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Blindside
I hate politics.

Lamont

I thought you said in an earlier post that your linage went through the Tracy's?! Or is it you just don't agree ith Wilbur Tracy?

Are you still with the Tracy Org.?

:confused:

Blindside

02-09-2002, 09:44 PM

Hi Scott,

The school I study and teach at isn't a part of the Tracy organization, and hasn't been since its founding some 27 years ago. My instructor was promoted to 4th Black under Chris Trujillo and Al Tracy.

Just because my lineage goes back through the Tracy's doesn't mean I agree with everything that they have done. I have been impressed with what Mr. (Al) Tracy has done in the past couple of years with the GOEs.

"Or is it you just don't agree with Wilbur Tracy?"

I can't even begin to talk about how many things I disagree with Will Tracy about (thinking about the sex cult here), and if that old website was his opinions on kenpo, then I disagree with him there also.

Lamont

Sanxiawuyi

02-09-2002, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Blindside
The school I study and teach at isn't a part of the Tracy organization, and hasn't been since its founding some 27 years ago. My instructor was promoted to 4th Black under Chris Trujillo and Al Tracy.

Hey Lamont,

What organization, if any, are you with now? What curriculum are teaching? Do you use Tracy Tech’s as a base, or American (terminology)?

Sorry for all the questions, just curious.
:asian:

Blindside

02-10-2002, 12:27 AM

Hi Scott,

We use a very similar curriculum as to what was used by Chris Trujillo when he taught my instructor. This was already different than the original Tracy technique requirements. Most of the variations have been dropped, except for where they show true difference in the tech. The nomenclature is still based off of the Tracy lineage. We have had alot of input of Parker's later concepts from one of our instructors who was an AK black belt student under Paul Mills. We don't use alot of AK terminology, except for some of the big one's (Marriage with Gravity, etc.)

Some techniques have been modified to make them work better. Forms are pretty much standard, but we still have Tiger and Crane, Mass Attack, and bookset. (It sounds like our Tiger and Crane is an older variation to what is currently taught. In our T&C there are two series of jump spinning outward inward crescent kicks that apparently used to be in the Tracy version, but has since been swapped out.) Our Long 5, short 5, and short 4 are from the American Kenpo systems. I think we now have two Long 6's, one from each system. (Our head instructor is also studying under an AK instructor in Salt Lake City.)

We are not affiliated with any organization, just one of those many independents making our way in this world.

No worries about the questions.

Lamont

vincefuess

02-10-2002, 02:54 AM

The Tracy/ Parker BS has gone on for a long time, and it is really nothing more than individual immaturities that keep it alive. Both camps have turned out incredible martial artists.

I am a Parker Kenpo practitioner. I know a great many Tracy Kenpo practitioners. I may have my own personal disagreements with the way the tracys promoted their art for awhile there, and they hurt a good many people in the process. We all make mistakes. Sometimes we make big ones.

I personally find all of the "lineage" claims to be a bunch of BS- but who cares? If Al and Jim get their rocks off claiming to be the new generation of the Kosho-Ryu and tell everybody that their modern-day roots are 300 years deep that is their business. Where the rubber meets the road is DOES THE SYSTEM WORK? YES it does. Does it work any better than Parkers or anyone else's? NO. It all comes down to you the individual- for YOU are the one studying Kenpo for YOUR own reasons.

Either system has what you are looking for, if you are "Kenpo inclined" as I call it. They are both very complete systems, and it would take a lifetime commitment to master either one. We all have one head (not counting the purple helmet), two arms and two legs- there is only so much you can do with them.

I no longer waste time with the debate, I choose to absorb what is offered.

Vince

donald

02-11-2002, 08:20 PM

[Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi I am not sure where you are getting your info, but as I have been involved with the martial arts for over seventeen years and been with the Tracy system for at great deal of that time, so I can give my opinion.

Sir,
Did you have a problem with my information? What portion? What I stated as fact, is fact! Who of the Tracy's left when to where is'nt a large part of the equation. The facts as I know them to be are in my original post. I agree that there seems to be more resemblances than differences between I.K.K.A. kenpo, and Tracy kenpo. That was the primary point of my post. Which was directed for the most part towards those who continue to shout about being tied to Tracy as opposed to Parker. If they knew their facts. They would close their mouths, and train...
Salute in Christ:asian:

vincefuess

02-11-2002, 09:42 PM

Well, it seems to me we are on the same page! I was speaking strictly in reference to the aspect of training in either Parker or Tracy Kenpo.

Sanxiawuyi

02-12-2002, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by donald
Sir,
Did you have a problem with my information? What portion?

I am so sorry. I just re-read your original post and I must have read it wrong the first time. We are in agreement on that topic. I responded to hastily and with heavy eyelids. Just goes to show that I shouldn’t open my mouth until I have paused and thought.

My apologize again
:asian:

Chiduce

02-20-2002, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by vincefuess
Well, it seems to me we are on the same page! I was speaking strictly in reference to the aspect of training in either Parker or Tracy Kenpo. I'am trying to understand this. I thought the better system would be based on the abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself! One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that kenpo is based on the study of creative motion. On this basis would make all kenpo similar, yet different in creative methodologies. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Goldendragon7

02-20-2002, 02:06 AM

Hi Chiduce, :)

You stated............
"I thought the better system would be based on the
abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself!"

Well, the style doesn't make the man, the man makes the style...... however if you are comparing 2 individuals that study different systems....... then you are comparing apples and tangerines.

While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". In the last 25
years of Ed Parker's Life ...... dont you think he made several adjustments and advances to HIS
system?!! Oh course he did, NOW was Al Tracy involved in these developments........ Answer ...
NO he was not.

Suffice to say that while the Tracy System is an Ed Parker break~away system with Tracys
modifications.. It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system.
After all we have had 25 good years of adjustments to the system and many new insights, drills,
advanced technique applications and variable expansions of all sorts on all levels.

Al Tracy has done a wonderful job of maintaining what he had 40 years ago with little modification.
He also should be credited with the expansion movement of the Kenpo System throughout the US and
the several portions of the World. This does not however mean that he should be credited as one
who is knowledgeable on the Principles and Concepts and other invaluable material found in the Architecture of the American Kenpo System of Today.

You went on to state.................

"One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that
kenpo is based on the study of creative motion."

Yes, the lineage to a point - specifically when the separation happened..... at that point they were more or less of the same mindset.... but as I have stated the Buck Stops here!! Tracy is missing an important 25 years of advanced material that Ed Parker has developed.

No Kenpo is not based on the study of creative motion....... what is that? Kenpo is based upon
LOGIC. It is the analytical study of motion that is the key as well as the individuals commitment to what is available to him and his personal application of said material.

If you take a putz and put him in the "BEST" system in the world you still have a Great Putz!

If you take a putz and put him in the "WORST" system in the world you still have an Awful Putz!

You take a hard working person that digs and studies, researches and trains guided by a good
instructor and armed with a complete system..... you have a great practitioner.
:asian:

Chiduce

02-20-2002, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Hi Chiduce, :)

You stated............
"I thought the better system would be based on the
abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself!"

Well, the style doesn't make the man, the man makes the style...... however if you are comparing 2 individuals that study different systems....... then you are comparing apples and tangerines.

While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". In the last 25
years of Ed Parker's Life ...... dont you think he made several adjustments and advances to HIS
system?!! Oh course he did, NOW was Al Tracy involved in these developments........ Answer ...
NO he was not.

Suffice to say that while the Tracy System is an Ed Parker break~away system with Tracys
modifications.. It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system.
After all we have had 25 good years of adjustments to the system and many new insights, drills,
advanced technique applications and variable expansions of all sorts on all levels.

Al Tracy has done a wonderful job of maintaining what he had 40 years ago with little modification.
He also should be credited with the expansion movement of the Kenpo System throughout the US and
the several portions of the World. This does not however mean that he should be credited as one
who is knowledgeable on the Principles and Concepts and other invaluable material found in the Architecture of the American Kenpo System of Today.

You went on to state.................

"One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that
kenpo is based on the study of creative motion."

Yes, the lineage to a point - specifically when the separation happened..... at that point they were more or less of the same mindset.... but as I have stated the Buck Stops here!! Tracy is missing an important 25 years of advanced material that Ed Parker has developed.

No Kenpo is not based on the study of creative motion....... what is that? Kenpo is based upon
LOGIC. It is the analytical study of motion that is the key as well as the individuals commitment to what is available to him and his personal application of said material.

If you take a putz and put him in the "BEST" system in the world you still have a Great Putz!

If you take a putz and put him in the "WORST" system in the world you still have an Awful Putz!

You take a hard working person that digs and studies, researches and trains guided by a good
instructor and armed with a complete system..... you have a great practitioner.
:asian: Sir to my knowledge, Logic is an ever changing concept of what is accepted as workable in any infinite time variable. In the study of the science of motion, this logic is the creative motion studies themselves. This is true for all motion, (molecular, liquid, and solid). Thus, any analytical analogy of motion, (in this case physical) is still based on the physical bio-molecuar content or(the individual/person), which includes the latter three combined. Since motion involves work, this work is analysed as potential in it's kinetic and kinematic mobilities. Therefore, Logic or Analytical Logic in physical motion is infinitely creative! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Goldendragon7

02-21-2002, 01:52 AM

I'll vote for that!

:asian:

Dave Simmons

03-06-2002, 02:30 PM

Although I agree with Dennis on the "differences" now between the Parker system and the Tracy system. However I feel that Tracy's System is also different now. Although Al doesn't openly admit it, he knows that some of his Black Belts have changed techniques, improved them and "modernized" them. The same goes with what is taught and when... Al himself has changed or modified certain areas of his system!

Of course, I know there are some Tracy folks out there who would not change anything without Al's approval. However there are those like me that have been encouraged to expand their Kenpo knowledge.

We all agree, I believe, as long as Kenpo is practiced and taught it will evolve and always improve. No matter if its SGM Parker or AL Tracy's advocates.

Regards,

Dave Simmons:soapbox:
www.mnkenpo.com

Goldendragon7

03-06-2002, 06:09 PM

Dave,

You are one of the few that have the courage and intelligence to admit that. We all know what happened and now the Tracy folks little by little are learning more of the factual details regarding the "Art" and really want to learn anything that will enhance what they already have invested much blood, sweat and tears in. The political reasons, or for that matter ANY reasons for the separation take a back seat. The Tracy folks must put aside differences and the Parker folks must do the same so that both can share experiences and examine the Art factors (curriculum advancements, drills, exercises etc.) so as to move forward.

History as well should be examined to give answers to the WHY we are here at this point so a greater understanding and healing can begin or in some cases continue and be reckoned with.

It is Tracy folks like you and I that can help mend fences between the two "KENPO" groups. You see I don't see the Tracy group any different than Paul Mills group or Joe Palanzo's group or Mike Picks group or any other group for that matter. We are all different groups (organizations if you will) that all were students or former students of the "one and only" SGM Edmund K. Parker. Yes, some broke away for what ever reasons..... (like Tracy was the only one to leave.... come on! lol) all these separate groups still utilize the basic fundamental structure that Ed Parker developed. Advancements and updates are the key issues that separate or are a main focal point or stumbling block of today. As we come to accept our true roots this will enable us to start to share with all these groups and thus create an environment of unity.

Or at least that's my take.

:asian:

Klondike93

03-06-2002, 07:38 PM

Well said by both Mr. Simmons and GD7. Now, will anybody understand it, or will the bickering continue?

:asian:

Chuck

GouRonin

03-06-2002, 10:38 PM

I find that if I hate everyone equally then it all seems to work out nicely.
:rolleyes:

Klondike93

03-07-2002, 12:34 AM

:boing1: :rofl:

you funny!!

:asian:

Chuck

Zoran

03-07-2002, 02:09 AM

...let sleeping dogs lie, stop beating a dead horse....and so on. There will always be people who will not be able to let go the Parker/Tracy debate. It's done, move on!!!

Dennis and Dave, great posts!

Gou, you crack me up.

Don't move or I'll shoot
........^...................................Please don't hurt me!!!
........^......................................... ........^...................
....:armed:....................................... ...:waah:

What was that? I didn't hear you.
.............^.................................... Come closer so you can
.............^.................................... ............^
.........:armed:.................................. .........:EG:

...................................!?!argh!?!
....................................:boxing:

................Officer I have no idea what happened,
..............................He just fell down
.....................................:angel:

Goldendragon7

03-07-2002, 03:31 AM

Someone has to answer the constant re-occuring questions on the multi million forums that keep popping up everywhere! lol

:armed:

Zoran

03-07-2002, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Someone has to answer the constant re-occuring questions on the multi million forums that keep popping up everywhere! lol

:armed:

Your right. Someone does have to answer that question. It's just that I've heard it so often that it's starting to drive me looney. That gives me an idea, what do you think of a collaboration, yourself, Mr. Simmons, and whoever else, on an article about this subject. I can post it on my site and other sites. Then when the question comes up, we can say; "read this first". Do you think will it help, or is it a pipe dream?

Rob_Broad

03-07-2002, 09:13 AM

Yes there are many similarities in the two styles, but there is just as many differences. The tracy method is more is better, where the parker method became more tailored to fit the individual. The Tracy's had techniques like Crash of the eagle Part 1 and 2 with umpteen variations while the Parker believed in grafting. Neither method is wrong, one just has more ability to be tailored to fit the individual.

Dave Simmons

03-07-2002, 09:46 AM

Normally I think your idea would benefit and perhaps correct the confusion. The Parker vs Tracy issue has reached mythical heights. What I mean is exactly what is truth and fantasy it is hard to tell anymore.

The Kenpo Community must move forward. If people would interact and participate at more gatherings, seminars and informal workout mutual understandings would surface. Those who want to be alone (affiliations) will do it no matter what is done or who is involved.

Al Tracy is actually trying to give back history and knowledge to the Kenpo Community via The Gathering of Eagles. He has told me a number of times that many Kenpo folks just don't care. What he meant is the history of the practitioners struggle what it means to us today and for the future of Kenpo.

No I am not saying Al is the only one but he is not afraid to try. There are others too! Yourself for instance, Dennis Conatsner, Steve LaBounty, Larry Tatum, GM McSweeney(God bless him) Tom Savianno. The key ingredient is, Kenpo and what it means is bigger than all of us combined. There is one statement that I think is the starting point, "Check your Ego's at the door". If we could practice that at all times we could become more understanding.

Peace,

Dave Simmons:asian:

Kirk

03-07-2002, 10:16 AM

What's the story with the sex cult? Why is it avoided so hard
on forums?

Rob_Broad

03-07-2002, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Kirk

What's the story with the sex cult? Why is it avoided so hard
on forums?

It is not polite to discuss naked grappling.

Goldendragon7

03-07-2002, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Kirk
"What's the story with the sex cult? Why is it avoided?"

COME ON..............

Why do you think it's avoided?! Nobody wants to discuss the skeletons in their closet! lol

Would you want to discuss openly your Uncle that has aids or is a swinger on these cannibalistic forums........ lol (Well Gou might like that, heee hee)

:eek: :asian:

Dutch

03-07-2002, 03:28 PM

Gou would like that alright because he'll sleep with your girlfriend behind your back!

Wil Tracy and his wife had a sex cult. In that if you slept with Wil's wife you were absolved of all your sins. They had it set up like a church. So everyone was banging Wil's wife. They even made the rounds on talk shows talking about it. I think the law caught up with them regarding the money aspect of it because while it's not illegal to have everyone sleep with your wife it is if you do it for money or have your church use funds illegally.

Goldendragon7

03-07-2002, 03:41 PM

I wonder if they still hold service...... last I heard they were developng new princesses on Egyptian Religion

:cool:

Dave Simmons

03-07-2002, 04:06 PM

Never have never will. But I find it curious about your roots! What do you advocate? Mail order primary instructions for Black Belt backed up with a certificate. You sir are misleading the uninformed public! I have checked out your site, well let us say BULL@#$% to your BS. Nice photo's with psuedo captions. What I really like the best is the young lady posing as a professional boxer. That's funny the gloves are not sized to her and physically she looks like she hasn't felt one punch in the ring.LOL! Let alone a professional bout.

Bye, Bye, Con Artist!

Dave Simmons

arnisador

03-07-2002, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Dave Simmons

What I really like the best is the young lady posing as a professional boxer. That's funny the gloves are not sized to her and physically she looks like she hasn't felt one punch in the ring.LOL! Let alone a professional bout.

The site (http://www.dragonkenpo.com/champions.htm) claims that this woman is Jennifer Childers (http://www.ipcress.com/box/childers.html), whose record is 7-0.

Dutch

03-07-2002, 06:59 PM

That isn't MY website. If you look at how many people have done Dragon Combat Kenpo though who are professional fighters you'll understand that it is indeed the deadliest form of Kenpo.

Klondike93

03-07-2002, 07:30 PM

:drink2tha

That sounds like a hell of a way to teach kenpo. You achieve belt rank by the number of orgasams she has. :rofl: :rofl:

:roflmao:

Chuck

Dutch

03-07-2002, 08:42 PM

Is that a crack? I suppose you think it is funny to have your girlfriend stolen by another man! Some people have no honor!

Goldendragon7

03-07-2002, 09:31 PM

are you getting in "Dutch" for this! Whoa!:rofl:

Bob Hubbard

03-08-2002, 01:09 AM

Bad website, stock pictures, poorly edited at that. Questionable system, and an interesting grading system.

All in all, This is deteriorating rapidly.....

Not Important

03-08-2002, 04:40 PM

To Quote Golden Dragon:
"You stated............
"I thought the better system would be based on the
abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself!"

Well, the style doesn't make the man, the man makes the style...... however if you are comparing 2 individuals that study different systems....... then you are comparing apples and tangerines.

While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". In the last 25
years of Ed Parker's Life ...... dont you think he made several adjustments and advances to HIS
system?!! Oh course he did, NOW was Al Tracy involved in these developments........ Answer ...
NO he was not.

Suffice to say that while the Tracy System is an Ed Parker break~away system with Tracys
modifications.. It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system.
After all we have had 25 good years of adjustments to the system and many new insights, drills,
advanced technique applications and variable expansions of all sorts on all levels.

Al Tracy has done a wonderful job of maintaining what he had 40 years ago with little modification.
He also should be credited with the expansion movement of the Kenpo System throughout the US and
the several portions of the World. This does not however mean that he should be credited as one
who is knowledgeable on the Principles and Concepts and other invaluable material found in the Architecture of the American Kenpo System of Today.

You went on to state.................

"One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that
kenpo is based on the study of creative motion."

Yes, the lineage to a point - specifically when the separation happened..... at that point they were more or less of the same mindset.... but as I have stated the Buck Stops here!! Tracy is missing an important 25 years of advanced material that Ed Parker has developed.

No Kenpo is not based on the study of creative motion....... what is that? Kenpo is based upon
LOGIC. It is the analytical study of motion that is the key as well as the individuals commitment to what is available to him and his personal application of said material.

If you take a putz and put him in the "BEST" system in the world you still have a Great Putz!

If you take a putz and put him in the "WORST" system in the world you still have an Awful Putz!

You take a hard working person that digs and studies, researches and trains guided by a good
instructor and armed with a complete system..... you have a great practitioner. "

I agree with what you say, except for this allows people and people take this to mean that Mr. Parker promoted them to Black Belt............:

Golden Dragon wrote:
"While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". "

Mr. Tracy was never promoted to more than a Brown Belt by Mr. Parker, he was given a diploma recognizing his rank, which is something else all together. Lots of people got those small little diplomas like that, and that was part of an amends that they were making at one point that was short lived..............

It is a different system that is based on a small part of "what was" American Kenpo at that time in it's life...........

And in most peoples eyes they consider the Tracy's Kenpo a style, not a system.............

Good job Golden Dragon

Dutch

03-08-2002, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Bad website, stock pictures, poorly edited at that. Questionable system, and an interesting grading system.
All in all, This is deteriorating rapidly.....

The website is not mine. It is the national one. The system is only questionable because you do not understand the effectiveness of it. Luckily you study under Tim Hartman in an effective system so that if you ever saw Dragon Kenpo you would immediately see it for what it is.

While some feel that the grading is easy to maintain I am not only a black in Dragin Kenpo I am also a certfied instructor. Which means so much more!

Yes, it IS deteriorating rapidly as these people come to realize that they have been doing busywork all this time.

deadhand31

03-08-2002, 04:58 PM

Yeah! He's certified! It came with the tapes!!!

Dave Simmons

03-08-2002, 05:30 PM

Hey No Name,

I've heard that "Al Tracy was only a Brown Belt" with Parker for to many years. Unfortunately if that were really true that would create a big problem for some big name Kenpo folks.

The first and foremost man would be Sigung Steve LaBounty who do you think promoted him to Black Belt? Al Tracy! The point is you are incorrect about Al Tracy's rank from Parker. If the Kenpo population believed your BS that means that Parker let lower non Black belts run his school(s) and also allowed them to open Parker KKA schools with his blessings. That "little diploma" you are referring to was the offical cert used at the time.

Whenever I hear these same old stories I feel sorry for the people who believe them. All you have to do is check the information out with the people who were there...

Dave Simmons
www.mnkenpo.com

Goldendragon7

03-08-2002, 05:31 PM

Let me clear this post Up a bit..............

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Not Important

[B]To Quote Golden Dragon:
"You stated............
(I didn't quote this... Chiduce did....... I was responding to Him).

Chiduce stated...

"I thought the better system would be based on the
abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself!"

Goldendragon responded.......

Well, the style doesn't make the man, the man makes the style...... however if you are comparing 2 individuals that study different systems....... then you are comparing apples and tangerines.

While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". In the last 25
years of Ed Parker's Life ...... don't you think he made several adjustments and advances to HIS system?!! Oh course he did, NOW was Al Tracy involved in these developments........ Answer ...
NO he was not.

Suffice to say that while the Tracy System is an Ed Parker break~away system with Tracy's modifications.. It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system. After all we have had 25 good years of adjustments to the system and many new insights, drills, advanced technique applications and variable expansions of all sorts on all levels.

Al Tracy has done a wonderful job of maintaining what he had 40 years ago with little modification. He also should be credited with the expansion movement of the Kenpo System throughout the US and the several portions of the World. This does not however mean that he should be credited as one who is knowledgeable on the Principles and Concepts and other invaluable material found in the Architecture of the American Kenpo System of Today.

**********
You went on to state................. (not me, Chiduce...)
Chiduce stated........
"One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that kenpo is based on the study of creative motion."

Goldendragon7 responded.......
Yes, the lineage to a point - specifically when the separation happened..... at that point they were more or less of the same mindset.... but as I have stated the Buck Stops here!! Tracy is missing an important 25 years of advanced material that Ed Parker has developed.

No Kenpo is not based on the study of creative motion....... what is that? Kenpo is based upon LOGIC. It is the analytical study of motion that is the key as well as the individuals commitment to what is available to him and his personal application of said material.

If you take a putz and put him in the "BEST" system in the world you still have a Great Putz!

If you take a putz and put him in the "WORST" system in the world you still have an Awful Putz!

You take a hard working person that digs and studies, researches and trains guided by a good
instructor and armed with a complete system..... you have a great practitioner. "

**********
Not Important now states.........

I agree with what you say, except for this allows people and people take this to mean that Mr. Parker promoted them to Black Belt............:

Golden Dragon wrote:
"While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". "

Yes, Goldendragon7 said that.

**********
Not Important now continues.......
Mr. Tracy was never promoted to more than a Brown Belt by Mr. Parker, he was given a diploma recognizing his rank, which is something else all together. Lots of people got those small little diplomas like that, and that was part of an amends that they were making at one point that was short lived..............

GD7 now informs................
Well, I respectfully disagree with you. There was a rumor that surfaces from time to time saying that Tracy was only a Brown Belt. I have several extremely qualified sources that were there at the time in addition to what Ed Parker told me personally himself (so if you wish to disagree ..... that is ok to do, I just can't agree with you) and I can assure you that Al WAS a Black Belt at that time by that times standards.

**********
Not Important continues.......
It is a different system that is based on a small part of "what was" American Kenpo at that time in it's life...........

And in most peoples eyes they consider the Tracy's Kenpo a style, not a system.............

GD7 responds......
By definition it is a System (Tracy's) no matter how you cut the pie. The "most people" that you speak of, may not understand the difference in terminology that is used. But they can call it what ever they want to or view it how they wish. Style has to do with the personal adaptation of the curriculum. System describes curriculum.

I hope that clears this up.....
:asian:

Goldendragon7

03-08-2002, 05:35 PM

I totally agree with you Dave. I know where this started and was involved with several conversations with Mr. Parker on this very subject. LOL.

We know the truth. So, let the others say what they wish. lol

The Goldendragon...... the Imperial Dragon, king of all the dragons.:D

Dave Simmons

03-08-2002, 05:40 PM

For clearing up who said what and how...

Geez I hate old BS stories.

Dave Simmons

Zoran

03-08-2002, 05:41 PM

...I recognize who "Not Important" is.

Blindside

03-08-2002, 06:07 PM

Sometimes I think that people who are really knowledgable about something see relatively minor differences as big huge glaring changes. I can see the similarities between the kenpo club and FMA sticks and yet others tell me they are completely different. How the silat "puter kepala" occurs in every martial art I've studied. How the inward parry/hammerfist to bicep combination from Spinning Log or Reversing Wind is called a gunting or destruction. How kenpo checks relate to Wing Chun traps. How kenpo kicks really aren't all that different (at all) from those I learned in Isshin-ryu when I was a kid.

From all these examples of similarties between relatively unrelated arts, is it any wonder why I don't see a huge difference between the Tracy and Parker lines? I'm not saying that the Tracy and Parker lines aren't different, but that when you compare them against the bulk of the martial arts world they are much more alike than different.

Posted by Not Important:

"It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system."

So just how different is the American kenpo from Tracy Kenpo? Is it farther apart than TKD and TSD? How about Shotokan and Wado-ryu? Or Cabales Serrada Escrima and Doce Pares? Muay Thai and unarmed Bando? Wing Chun and Choy Li Fut?

My opinion is that the similarity is alot closer than you think.

Salute,

Lamont

Not Important

03-08-2002, 08:12 PM

**********
Not Important now states.........

I agree with what you say, except for this allows people and people take this to mean that Mr. Parker promoted them to Black Belt............:

Golden Dragon wrote:
"While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". "

Yes, Goldendragon7 said that.

**********
Not Important now continues.......
Mr. Tracy was never promoted to more than a Brown Belt by Mr. Parker, he was given a diploma recognizing his rank, which is something else all together. Lots of people got those small little diplomas like that, and that was part of an amends that they were making at one point that was short lived..............

GD7 now informs................
Well, I respectfully disagree with you. There was a rumor that surfaces from time to time saying that Tracy was only a Brown Belt. I have several extremely qualified sources that were there at the time in addition to what Ed Parker told me personally himself (so if you wish to disagree ..... that is ok to do, I just can't agree with you) and I can assure you that Al WAS a Black Belt at that time by that times standards.

*************

I remember Mr. Parker and myself having a conversation after I finished teaching at the Pasadena school one day, (back then Mr. Parker called it a studio though....), and was rather upset because of things going on with the Tracy Brothers, he told me that he had not promoted them, but he had recognized them. Giving a certificate of recognition is much different than promoting, and I have seen the diploma myself from Al Tracy.

I knew all of the brothers, and can say that they were great business men, and have made their mark, but they in Mr. Parkers own words not promoted, and they were never birthed into the rank by him. Mr. Parker giving him the certificate did recognize him and he said so, Mr. Parker said that Al Tracy was at the level of Black Belt by those times standards, just not promoted to that rank by him.

Do you remember when Al Tracy published in a MA magazine that any of his Purple Belts could beat up any of Mr. Parkers Black Belts????? I remember getting a phone call the day it came out....

Enough with this stuff anyway, this why I disappeared before, I hate politics.....

Well, now I know who you are by looking at your profile, I did notice a hint of Mr. Lonny Coots, in your views of expression. He was in many classes that I taught in Pasadena....., and we were in classes together that Mr. Parker taught as well...

I hope all is well with you.....

If we are not to agree, then that is the way it is too be.....If you are still in contact with Mr. Coots, please tell him Mr. B says hello.....

Goldendragon7

03-08-2002, 10:28 PM

Mr. B...

You may be mistaken, Mr. Coots was not from California and did not work out in Pasadena. He was always a student of Gary Swan's in Arizona and Texas. He did take a couple of lessons with Mr. Parker back in the late 70's but not "many" classes.

:asian:

Not Important

03-09-2002, 04:16 PM

That is a subjective term, and I ment it relative to the situation, including the classes that we were in.........

Rob_Broad

03-09-2002, 05:58 PM

Both arts have moved in the directions they have chosen to follow. The Tracy system has tried to traditionalize their kenpo, the one thing Ed Parker never wanted to happen to his art. The American Kenpoists have explore, and delved deeper into their art to make more the for the individual. It all boils down to what the person wants to learn, if they are give a fair, honest choice. In many cases there is only one group or the other. If both styles are available you often only hear about the good from one group while they bash the other, and if you go to the other school it is usually the same. I believe it all comes down to what the indivual student wants. If they want their kenpo dictated with every possible thing already worked out, go to Tracys, if they want to explore and learn for themselves, nad have a clear define language of motion choose American Kenpo.

Zoran

03-09-2002, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Both arts have moved in the directions they have chosen to follow. The Tracy system has tried to traditionalize their kenpo, the one thing Ed Parker never wanted to happen to his art. The American Kenpoists have explore, and delved deeper into their art to make more the for the individual. It all boils down to what the person wants to learn, if they are give a fair, honest choice. In many cases there is only one group or the other. If both styles are available you often only hear about the good from one group while they bash the other, and if you go to the other school it is usually the same. I believe it all comes down to what the indivual student wants. If they want their kenpo dictated with every possible thing already worked out, go to Tracys, if they want to explore and learn for themselves, nad have a clear define language of motion choose American Kenpo.
I feel your statement is too generalized. It really comes down to the school or the intructor. I know Tacy Kenpo instructors that our constantly trying to find new inovations and ideas to their art. On the other hand, I've also found American Kenpo instructors that still teach the curriculum exactly as it was in 1990, with no additions or modification, which makes the system traditionalized. So it really comes down to the instructor, not necesarily the system.

Rule #1, There are exception to every rule, including rule #1.

Rob_Broad

03-10-2002, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Zoran

I feel your statement is too generalized. It really comes down to the school or the intructor. I know Tacy Kenpo instructors that our constantly trying to find new inovations and ideas to their art. On the other hand, I've also found American Kenpo instructors that still teach the curriculum exactly as it was in 1990, with no additions or modification, which makes the system traditionalized. So it really comes down to the instructor, not necesarily the system.

Rule #1, There are exception to every rule, including rule #1.

Or maybe the problem is people try to read too much into what is not there! If I had 2 instructor that were both motivated and at equal rank, one teachng AK the other Tracys I would rather go with the AK material. I was trying to be political correct with my answer but it was pushed so I will say what I feel. The Tracy system preaches cookie cutter kenpo, for this do that, for that do this. The American kenpo allows for more tailoring of your art, and much more growth if the instructor does not fall into the rut of trying to traditionalize it.

Goldendragon7

03-10-2002, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Zoran

I've also found American Kenpo instructors that still teach the curriculum exactly as it was in 1990, with no additions or modification, which makes the system traditionalized. So it really comes down to the instructor, not necessarily the system.

This could be misleading. :( If one really understands American Kenpo, you will realize that there are in fact "layers" of learning expansions. I teach the entire system with all the basics, forms, sets, 154 Self Defense Techniques, Coordination Exercises, Freestyle Techniques, Sayings, Creed and Pledges, drills, and all bells and whistles that are there, but more important is the "method" in which I teach the curriculum and instill in the students the ability to teach so as to learn from the material as well. The initial layer (the Base Way or Ideal Phase as some call it) as the Introduction to the System. As one advances, you must then revisit all the belts once again and rediscover deeper understandings of the curriculum thru the "What if Phase", this can be quite extensive. The work one does in the Ideal and what if Phases may last years due to the endless variable expansions and different areas of the art to examine.... (basics, forms/sets, & sparring, etc.), all these areas of study require skill development and application of material which depends upon ones personal commitment and natural abilities.

Now, if someone views an individual during the "Intro" Phase, that person could be termed as "Traditional Kenpo" in the eyes of the viewer because of where he is on his personal Kenpo Journey at that time. Five years later, you may observe many different options, activities, mental and skill developments that was not present prior.

I agree in part as you say it is the instructor and not the system, but the instructor needs a good system to assist him in his task.

:asian:

Zoran

03-10-2002, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Or maybe the problem is people try to read too much into what is not there! If I had 2 instructor that were both motivated and at equal rank, one teachng AK the other Tracys I would rather go with the AK material. I was trying to be political correct with my answer but it was pushed so I will say what I feel. The Tracy system preaches cookie cutter kenpo, for this do that, for that do this. The American kenpo allows for more tailoring of your art, and much more growth if the instructor does not fall into the rut of trying to traditionalize it.
All I was trying to say is not all Tracy Kenpo instructors teach Kenpo as you describe, just as not all Parker's American Kenpo intructors teach in the way you described. All I'm trying to do is show the other side of the coin. I really was not trying to push you into anyrthing. If that is the way my post came across, you have my apology. All I was trying to do is help generate an interesting discussion. Trust me, I have more than a few not so politicaly correct opinions myself.;)