Gaseous phase of motion

[ProfessorKenpo]

Just throwing this out for thoughts on this.

1)What do you think it is?

2)When did you first learn it and when would you teach it?

3)How is it so much different fromt the solid and liquid phases?

4)When and how do you employ it?

Anything else you can think of would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Is this for real?

[kenpo12]

Hey Clyde,

I remember you brought this up in a Saturday morning class a couple months ago, so I'll try to put up something remotely correct.

-In a solid state you move in a specific direction regardless off what your opponent does. You bust through anything they might have up and you basically "hard style" though them.
-In a liquid state you move around your opponent for the most part.
-In a gaseous state you take up your opponent’s space. You basically are already everywhere he wants to go, thus canceling all of his zones.

I know these could be elaborated on much more but that is my basic understanding of the above states as it has to do with kenpo.

Matt

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wow. It is for real. Never heard of it before. Learn something new everyday.

[jfarnsworth]

I have always thought that Unfurling Crane was a Gaseous technique. That is just my opinion though. I base this on shuffling in with the hammer to the groin just before exploding out with the instep to the groin, the obscure vert. elbow followed by the palm heel to the chin, as the left hand checks the right shoulder. I don't know if that's exactly correct but I like the technique anyways.:D



Oh and B.T.W. Clyde; thanks for putting something up that we can use, learn, and talk about instead of argueing about.:asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I have always thought that Unfurling Crane was a Gaseous technique. That is just my opinion though. I base this on shuffling in with the hammer to the groin just before exploding out with the instep to the groin, the obscure vert. elbow followed by the palm heel to the chin, as the left hand checks the right shoulder. I don't know if that's exactly correct but I like the technique anyways.:D



Oh and B.T.W. Clyde; thanks for putting something up that we can use, learn, and talk about instead of argueing about.:asian:

Oh yea, I do love that technique as well, and it's a pretty good example of the gaseous phase, now what about the rest of the questions silly LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Just throwing this out for thoughts on this.

1)What do you think it is?

2)When did you first learn it and when would you teach it?

3)How is it so much different fromt the solid and liquid phases?

4)When and how do you employ it?

Anything else you can think of would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

1) I think it is what Kenpo 12 said it is.

2) I just learned it when I read this.

3) In Kenpo 12's explanation you can see the differences (if his explanation is correct).

4) Personally I would WANT to employ the gaseous phase EVERYTIME I had to deal with any opponent, but I am sure there is a time and a place for it though. I will have to think about that one.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Wow. It is for real. Never heard of it before. Learn something new everyday.

OFK, I can't believe you've been around this long and not know of the three phases. Besides solid, liquid, and gas there are


1st, 2nd, 3rd person perspective

past, present, future and how they relate to techniques and forms

primitive, mechanical, & spontaneous stages of motion, what the three tiers on the flame represent

embryonic and sophisticated basics

and hundreds more

Lots of Kenpo terms that never get out are left behind. If we all spoke the same language it would be a bit easier to transfer thoughts via text instead of physical explanations. I'll be happy to explain them to anyone if they ask.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Clyde: Thanks. I'm familiar with all the other concepts you mentioned above. My Instructor split with Parker/Tracy in 1965 and I guess some of the terms never made it into our school.

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
what the three tiers on the flame represent

I want to know, please, what do they represent?

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I want to know, please, what do they represent?



Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
primitive, mechanical, & spontaneous stages of motion, what the three tiers on the flame represent



That's how I took it anyways.

[rmcrobertson]

Axly, I'd argue that Unfurling Crane is a good example of a "liquid," technique that turns "gaseous."

And--to repeat a point Mr. Tatum sometimes makes--none of the phases are inherently superior to the others, any more than "primitive," (strictly, the word means "first") is necessarily inferior to "sophisticated." We just tend to read them as going from "lesser," to "greater."

It's partly that, as Toni still reminds me, you have to respect the level that you're at. It's partly that my experience has been that every belt rank (except for that damn blue) is exactly as difficult as every other one.

And, to harp where I keep harping, too often we confuse fancy technology with sophisticated Fechnology...as I recently discovered, have Clyde work you through Clutching Feathers, and you'll find out just how hard it can be to properly sophisticate an inward block...

[Michael Billings]

Robert, way to go. Hung in despite the criticism. Good job.

Rah, Rah, etc.
Oss

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Axly, I'd argue that Unfurling Crane is a good example of a "liquid," technique that turns "gaseous."

I was only pointing out the spot that I deemed necessary for the example of the gaseous state.:asian:

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Kirk
That's how I took it anyways.

Me too!

[kenpo12]

I feel there are alot of technique's that show examples of a gaseous state but I also feel that you can make most any technique gaseous depending on the way it's executed.
I also believe that the definition of moving in a gaseous state can change depending on the circumstance. For instance, gaseous motion is applied differently in a multi person attack scenerio than it is applied in a one on one scenerio. In a self defense scenerio or in a fight you can go from one state of motion to the next as the fight or situation dictates. As stated before one is not always better than the other, the best state is the one that fits the situation at the time.

that's my 2 cents at the moment.

Matt

[dcence]

Solid is what it is and will not change shape to conform to a container. Liquid seeks a level in the container. Gas fills the volume.

Take a jar and throw in a rock. The rock will sit there and only fill up the space the rock takes up, in or out of the jar. Pour in liquid and it will rise to the level of liquid proportionate to what you put in. Fill the jar with a gas, the gas will expand to fill the volume of the jar.

In relation to Kenpo, techniques can be executed in a solid state, meaning you execute the same way all the time regardless of your environment. The palm heel in Five Swords goes out at the same height regardless of your opponent's height. Your timing is the same regardless of your strikes effectiveness on your opponnet. Your opponent's reactions and peculiarities are not taken into account.

In liquid motion, your movements conform to the dimensions of your attacker. As water wraps around a solid object, your liquid motion smoothly and effortlessly takes shape to match your opponent's dimensions, features, reactions, etc. They rise to the level or sink to the level necessary to optimize your motion. Tailoring, fitting, contouring, contour confinement, etc. apply here. But liquid does not expand. The parts of the equation formula that might apply would be regulating, deleting, anything that alters the prescribed sequence to match your opponent and take his reactions into account.

In a gaseous state, your moves can be expanded beyond the liquid form to serve additional functions such as compounding. For example in a single attack situation, the palm heel in Five Swords might strike the face and then extend to a finger thrust to the eyes as his head whips back, then rip down with a claw. Your right hand chambering may turn into a back elbow or a back hammerfist to hit the guy behind you. Your moves expand to fill the space given to you in all three dimensions. What would otherwise be deemed wasted motion may become economic motion if your larger motion actually hits another target or another opponent. Suffixing, inserting -- anything that expands a technique beyond what is prescribed.

When do you learn it? On the first punch where the opposite hand chambers to the hip, as it is executing a back elbow. I tell people to think of it as such so that they will execute the opposing force with as much effort and focus as the forward motion.

Sometimes, gaseous motion is less something you do, but more a way you analyze the move(s) and the context in which it can be used.

I disagree that one form is not practically superior than the other. Gaseous is more functional than liquid or solid. The only time solid might be better is when you are learning a new specific technique sequence or practicing by yourself; you won't want to move like a gas because you have no boundaries -- no jar to fill.

Solid movement is to know how, Liquid is knowing why, when and where. Gas is knowing there is more.

To say one technique or another is gaseous, another is liquid and another is solid, is missing the point. Any technique, move can be executed in a solid, liquid or gaseous state, from Delayed Sword to whatever, from a punch to a kick.

If I execute even the mass attack techniques exactly as prescribed without making necessary adjustments I am still moving in the solid state.

That is the way I look at it. There are people that know a lot more than I do, so take my opinion for the worth of what was paid for it.

Derek

[Michael Billings]

I like the way you have described the 3 States of Motion in a technique.

The only thing I would add is that paths of motion, by becoming more economical, may find additional targets, minor moves, reduce wasted motion, and in-fact, find new methods of execution that fill the available space between you and an opponent, limiting or eliminating "Dead Space".

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by dcence
Derek

Sir,
Thanks for a fine example.:asian:

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by dcence
Sometimes, gaseous motion is less something you do, but more a way you analyze the move(s) and the context in which it can be used.

I disagree that one form is not practically superior than the other. Gaseous is more functional than liquid or solid. The only time solid might be better is when you are learning a new specific technique sequence or practicing by yourself; you won't want to move like a gas because you have no boundaries -- no jar to fill.

Solid movement is to know how, Liquid is knowing why, when and where. Gas is knowing there is more.


Derek

Basically, this was the gist of what I was going to say, but you explained it much better and went into a lot more detail than I could have.
Salute :asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
Solid is what it is and will not change shape to conform to a container. Liquid seeks a level in the container. Gas fills the volume.

Take a jar and throw in a rock. The rock will sit there and only fill up the space the rock takes up, in or out of the jar. Pour in liquid and it will rise to the level of liquid proportionate to what you put in. Fill the jar with a gas, the gas will expand to fill the volume of the jar.

In relation to Kenpo, techniques can be executed in a solid state, meaning you execute the same way all the time regardless of your environment. The palm heel in Five Swords goes out at the same height regardless of your opponent's height. Your timing is the same regardless of your strikes effectiveness on your opponnet. Your opponent's reactions and peculiarities are not taken into account.

In liquid motion, your movements conform to the dimensions of your attacker. As water wraps around a solid object, your liquid motion smoothly and effortlessly takes shape to match your opponent's dimensions, features, reactions, etc. They rise to the level or sink to the level necessary to optimize your motion. Tailoring, fitting, contouring, contour confinement, etc. apply here. But liquid does not expand. The parts of the equation formula that might apply would be regulating, deleting, anything that alters the prescribed sequence to match your opponent and take his reactions into account.

In a gaseous state, your moves can be expanded beyond the liquid form to serve additional functions such as compounding. For example in a single attack situation, the palm heel in Five Swords might strike the face and then extend to a finger thrust to the eyes as his head whips back, then rip down with a claw. Your right hand chambering may turn into a back elbow or a back hammerfist to hit the guy behind you. Your moves expand to fill the space given to you in all three dimensions. What would otherwise be deemed wasted motion may become economic motion if your larger motion actually hits another target or another opponent. Suffixing, inserting -- anything that expands a technique beyond what is prescribed.

When do you learn it? On the first punch where the opposite hand chambers to the hip, as it is executing a back elbow. I tell people to think of it as such so that they will execute the opposing force with as much effort and focus as the forward motion.

Sometimes, gaseous motion is less something you do, but more a way you analyze the move(s) and the context in which it can be used.

I disagree that one form is not practically superior than the other. Gaseous is more functional than liquid or solid. The only time solid might be better is when you are learning a new specific technique sequence or practicing by yourself; you won't want to move like a gas because you have no boundaries -- no jar to fill.

Solid movement is to know how, Liquid is knowing why, when and where. Gas is knowing there is more.

To say one technique or another is gaseous, another is liquid and another is solid, is missing the point. Any technique, move can be executed in a solid, liquid or gaseous state, from Delayed Sword to whatever, from a punch to a kick.

If I execute even the mass attack techniques exactly as prescribed without making necessary adjustments I am still moving in the solid state.

That is the way I look at it. There are people that know a lot more than I do, so take my opinion for the worth of what was paid for it.

Derek

An excellent explanation. I'm moving towards teaching people to become a combo of solid and liquid in their techniques, or gelatinous in nature, especially for beginners. The gaseous phase is definitely something only the more experienced practioners are able to achieve, and some never move at that level.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[rmcrobertson]

Just to add something, the problem that I see, at times, in these discussions lies in mistaking "gaseous," for "more advanced...," and, "more appropriate."

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Just to add something, the problem that I see, at times, in these discussions lies in mistaking "gaseous," for "more advanced...," and, "more appropriate."

Mr. Robertson-
I was just wondering why you feel this is a mistake.
Could you elaborate please?

Thanks
Your Bro.
John

[Brother John]

Thanks for that Great explanation!
Very impressive.
Any chance on there being a seminar on employing these into our training at some upcoming Vegas camp???
PLEASE???

Your Brother
John

[Brother John]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
When did you first learn it and when would you teach it?

When and how do you employ it?
Clyde

I remember learning of it when I was a white belt, 2nd or 3rd class. It was presented to me as a progression that I should strive to work through... each phase having it's own particular objective to work on.
Solid: Good form/alignment.
Liquid: Good form/alignment with a marked reduction in antagonistic muscular tension or "drag" (aka; relaxation), coupled with continuous flow of action.
Gaseous: all of the above with the circles elongated, the corners rounded off and increasing contact manipulation/pressure.

That's a very rough and condenced paraphrase of what my instructor said over a few different lessons.

When we learn of it is one thing, but going through these stages is very different. I recall many many lessons in which the key thing my instructor was wanting me to do was just 'relax'. Having years of experience in other 'hard' systems of Karate... it took a bit to unlearn some motion habits....that's no lie.

How do we employ it?
As a goal to move toward.

Your Brother
John

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by dcence
Solid is what it is and will not change shape to conform to a container. Liquid seeks a level in the container. Gas fills the volume.

Take a jar and throw in a rock. The rock will sit there and only fill up the space the rock takes up, in or out of the jar. Pour in liquid and it will rise to the level of liquid proportionate to what you put in. Fill the jar with a gas, the gas will expand to fill the volume of the jar.

In relation to Kenpo, techniques can be executed in a solid state, meaning you execute the same way all the time regardless of your environment. The palm heel in Five Swords goes out at the same height regardless of your opponent's height. Your timing is the same regardless of your strikes effectiveness on your opponnet. Your opponent's reactions and peculiarities are not taken into account.

In liquid motion, your movements conform to the dimensions of your attacker. As water wraps around a solid object, your liquid motion smoothly and effortlessly takes shape to match your opponent's dimensions, features, reactions, etc. They rise to the level or sink to the level necessary to optimize your motion. Tailoring, fitting, contouring, contour confinement, etc. apply here. But liquid does not expand. The parts of the equation formula that might apply would be regulating, deleting, anything that alters the prescribed sequence to match your opponent and take his reactions into account.

In a gaseous state, your moves can be expanded beyond the liquid form to serve additional functions such as compounding. For example in a single attack situation, the palm heel in Five Swords might strike the face and then extend to a finger thrust to the eyes as his head whips back, then rip down with a claw. Your right hand chambering may turn into a back elbow or a back hammerfist to hit the guy behind you. Your moves expand to fill the space given to you in all three dimensions. What would otherwise be deemed wasted motion may become economic motion if your larger motion actually hits another target or another opponent. Suffixing, inserting -- anything that expands a technique beyond what is prescribed.


Derek


Where solid moves without regard to your opponents movements.
And liquid moves to take shape according to your opponents moves.
Then, wouldn't the gaseous state, also be where your moves, decide what your opponents next move will be?
Eg. When I hit him here and here, he WILL BE in this position blah, blah, blah, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.

Just a thought.
--Dave

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

As usual an excellent post from Mr. Ence!


Originally posted by dcence
Solid is what it is and will not change shape to conform to a container. Liquid seeks a level in the container. Gas fills the volume.
Derek


Originally posted by dcence
In relation to Kenpo, techniques can be executed in a solid state, meaning you execute the same way all the time regardless of your environment.
Derek

Much like a beginner student in the art working hard on achieving the base to the system with little expansion at this level.


Originally posted by dcence
In liquid motion, your movements conform to the dimensions of your attacker.
Derek

More like the intermediate student that now has a working usage of the system and is not so mechanical but can flow to the targets much easier than the beginner...


Originally posted by dcence
In a gaseous state, your moves can be expanded beyond the liquid form to serve additional functions such as compounding or anything that expands a technique beyond what is prescribed.
Derek

The way all advanced students should be able to move. This state is usually an automatic by-product of the hard work and training during the solid and liquid sates.


Originally posted by dcence
To say one technique or another is gaseous, another is liquid and another is solid, is missing the point. Any technique, move can be executed in a solid, liquid or gaseous state.
Derek

Absolutely.......... Depending upon ones abilities and present State in the Art!~

:asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Three States of Motion
Parker looks at kenpo much like the three states of matter: solids, liquids and gases. You can freeze water and turn it into ice; water will be liquid at room temperature; or you can heat it to the point where it turns into vapor. "Solid is solid," Parker says, "and whatever shape you solidify something in, that's the shape in which it will remain. Liquid seeks its level and flows down the path of least resistance, but gas seeks its volume.
"And this is the way I look at kenpo," continues Parker. "The end result is that I can kick one opponent and back knuckle two other guys off to my side. That's using kenpo in a vapor state, where I'm seeking my volume. But unfortunately, a lot of people haven't thought of this analogy; yet, it applies to the martial arts. There's a place for all three types of motion in kenpo."

This quote was taken right from a BB magazine article.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[dcence]

I am glad my post was positively met by people that I hold in high esteem. That is not always the case.

Heck, I remember going to a seminar in Vegas with Mr. Conatser where we went over Short One and he basically said (paraphrasing), "Okay, step back into your right neutral bow, buckling the person behind you and hitting him with a back elbow, and, of coourse, do the right inward block/and/or strike." I said to myself, "Now this guy understands the gaseous state of motion."

It is usually a matter of changing perspective, as opposed to changing something you do, though sometimes altering something you do will add that gaseous element.

Now, Clyde, I have heard of moving in many states, including the flatulent state, but I like your "gelatinous state" idea. It conveys the idea of moving fluidly at times, but solidifying for that brief moment of impact with real structural integrity.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
I am glad my post was positively met by people that I hold in high esteem. That is not always the case.

Heck, I remember going to a seminar in Vegas with Mr. Conatser where we went over Short One and he basically said (paraphrasing), "Okay, step back into your right neutral bow, buckling the person behind you and hitting him with a back elbow, and, of coourse, do the right inward block/and/or strike." I said to myself, "Now this guy understands the gaseous state of motion."

It is usually a matter of changing perspective, as opposed to changing something you do, though sometimes altering something you do will add that gaseous element.

Now, Clyde, I have heard of moving in many states, including the flatulent state, but I like your "gelatinous state" idea. It conveys the idea of moving fluidly at times, but solidifying for that brief moment of impact with real structural integrity.

Yep, I kinda like the idea myself being as it was my idea LOL. It's a hard concept to grasp for most as they like to either be too fluid or too solid. Moving with a happy medium is the Kenpo way. I tell people all the time that Kenpo is an art based on mediocrity but in no way a mediocre art.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[dcence]

I was just glad to see you stopped using a photo of your mug next to your posts.

[Touch Of Death]

BAM!

[jeffkyle]

Where did that come from????

[Bill Lear]

The Yoda Quote is:

"Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering."

Just thought I throw that out there... :D

Now onto the topic of interest:

I'm tripping out on this Jelly Phase... it defines motion at a critical point in a practitioners development. I believe it is a valuable term because it sure has helped me out a lot.

:D

[dcence]

The more I think about it, I don't think I want to move like a bowl of jello. LOL.

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
The Yoda Quote is:

"Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering."

Just thought I throw that out there... :D

Now onto the topic of interest:

I'm tripping out on this Jelly Phase... it defines motion at a critical point in a practitioners development. I believe it is a valuable term because it sure has helped me out a lot.

:D

I know i have heard it the way i quoted it, before. I think now that maybe Obi One said it in one of the first 3 trilogy. Now I will have to watch them all again. :(

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
I know i have heard it the way i quoted it, before. I think now that maybe Obi One said it in one of the first 3 trilogy. Now I will have to watch them all again. :(

Yes... that's the way Obi Wan said it. :D

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
Yes... that's the way Obi Wan said it. :D

Obi Wan! I should have known better....I have never seen his name spelled out! :( :)

[Bill Lear]

Check out George Lucas' Star Wars Web Site (http://www.starwars.com/databank/). I think you might like it.

Always Kenpo,
Billy

[cdhall]

Well done sirs.

As much as I hate to post "Yep. Ditto. Me too." I thought I should do it here.

Thanks for posting. This is the type of stuff I visit this website for.
:asian:

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

... but is there a "plasma" state?

What if your movements are "viscous" -- is that like Jelly or Jell-o?


You know once I went from solid to liguid state, with a lot of gaseous state in between. But it served me right, eating what I did earlier that day.

[Seig]

Before I have to go and make it official, let's keep it polite, respectfull and back on topic.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
... but is there a "plasma" state?

What if your movements are "viscous" -- is that like Jelly or Jell-o?


You know once I went from solid to liguid state, with a lot of gaseous state in between. But it served me right, eating what I did earlier that day.


Plasmas are conductive assemblies of charged
particles, neutrals and fields that exhibit collective effects. Further, plasmas carry electrical currents and generate magnetic fields. Plasmas are the most common form of matter, comprising more than 99% of the visible universe.

Plasmas are radically multiscale in two senses
(1) most plasma systems involve electrodynamics coupling across micro-, meso- and macroscale and (2) plasma systems occur over most of the physically possible ranges in space, energy and density scales. The figure here illustrates where many plasma systems occur in terms of typical density and temperature conditions.


However, the full range of possible plasma density, energy(temperature) and spatial scales go far beyond this illustration. For example, some space plasmas have been measured to be less than 10 to the power -10 /m3 (13 orders of magnitude less than the scale shown in the figure!). On one extreme, quark-gluon plasmas (although mediated via the strong force field versus the electromagnetic field) are extremely dense nuclear states of matter. For temperature (or energy), some plasma crystal states produced in the laboratory have temperatures close to absolute zero. On the other extreme, space plasmas have been measured with thermal temperatures above 10+9 degrees Kelvin and cosmic rays (a type of plasma with very large gyroradii) are observed at energies well above those produced in any man-made accelerator laboratory. Considering Powers of 10 is useful for grasping the unique way in which plasmas are radically multi-scale in space, energy and density.



States of Matter* Primary Natural Systems
Spherical Torus at Culham, UK
solids condensed matter, compact (nuclear)
liquids, neutral gas fluid (Navier-Stokes)** systems
plasmas electromagnetic (Maxwell-Boltzmann)** systems
*There are only four dominant naturally-occurring states of matter although many other states of matter exist when considered broadly (see A. Barton, States of Matter, States of Mind, IOP Press, 1997).
X-rays fromYohkoh
ISAS, NASA

**The Navier-Stokes equations are basic equations for studies of fluids and neutral gas systems. The Maxwell equations for electromagnetism and the plasma Boltzmann equation are the basic equations for studies of electromagnetic systems of which plasmas are a prime example
- see references.

Be a little hard to hit a plasma state wouldn't ya think?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Michael Billings]

... we can only try:D

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
... Be a little hard to hit a plasma state wouldn't ya think?


I once dreamt up a futuristic "creature" called a plasmoid ... A programmable AI, hovering, shmoo-like mass that could extend out a temporarily dense pseudopod to hit you, and yet would yield and absorb your kenetic energy if you hit it, or even allow you pass through it or trap you.

It would suck to fight one of those, wouldn't it?

[cdhall]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
primitive, mechanical, & spontaneous stages of motion, what the three tiers on the flame represent

Someone else asked about this after ProfessorKenpo wrote it. I looked it up and it is in Infinite Insights Book 1. Page 66 I think.

It "might" be Book 2 now that I think again, but there is an illustration of the patch on the page and it is hard to miss if you are skimming to look for it.
:asian:

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Micheal Billings

The only thing I would add is that paths of motion, by becoming more economical, may find additional targets, minor moves, reduce wasted motion, and in-fact, find new methods of execution that fill the available space between you and an opponent, limiting or eliminating "Dead Space".




Clyde aka ProfessorKenpo

"And this is the way I look at kenpo," continues Parker. "The end result is that I can kick one opponent and back knuckle two other guys off to my side. That's using kenpo in a vapor state, where I'm seeking my volume. But unfortunately, a lot of people haven't thought of this analogy


Paul Mills Video Clip (http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_backknuckle.htm)

The above clip may take a while depending on your download speed.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Paul Mills Video Clip (http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_backknuckle.htm)

The above clip may take a while depending on your download speed.

And this represents what exactly?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Paul Mills Video Clip (http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_backknuckle.htm)

The above clip may take a while depending on your download speed.

I'm not sure where this fits in... perhaps you could elaborate a bit?

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

... that bulky people can do pattycake REALLY fast if they want to.

Seriously, I think it has something to do with "filling the space" like gas as responding to your environment as a whole, including multiple attackers.

However, anyone counting on a couple of quick hand jabs against two people at once better either hope the opponents are total wusses or be heavily insured. Now BLOCKING two people at once is a far more procatical skill, then you can strike at will. But practicing hitting two people at once (or in rapid succession) does not impress me. Especially since the angle necessary for such would mean poor placement in relation to defense.

[Michael Billings]

... the fastest hands in the West, and a champion quick draw handgun champ ... no fooling. He really does knock people down, I have not seen him in a decade, but from what I remember, he had the "heavy" Kenpo hands, we all know and love (OK - so not everyone knows what I am talking about) Feeling is believing.

-MB

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
And this represents what exactly?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


Why do you need to draw your weapon so far back; like John Wayne, to develope power? Lets talk about point of orgin and were it fits into Kenpo.

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Why do you need to draw your weapon so far back; like John Wayne, to develope power? Lets talk about point of orgin and were it fits into Kenpo.

How long did that guy stand there before Mr. Mills hit him? Let's talk about non-static attacks too. :eek:

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Ken JP Stuczynski
... that bulky people can do pattycake REALLY fast if they want to.
However, anyone counting on a couple of quick hand jabs against two people at once better either hope the opponents are total wusses or be heavily insured. Now BLOCKING two people at once is a far more procatical skill, then you can strike at will.


Funny that little "pattycake quick hand jab" that Mr. Mills did to the guy directly in front of him was the exact same shot that he crushed Larry Kongaika and Ron Boswell with, oh but I'm sure your right they are probably just big wusses!:shrug:

This particular demonstration was done with a large amount of control producing very minimal surface contact, however with a little penetration your "pattycake jab" becomes a little sledgehammer.

Two final comments before I leave here.
1) Mr. Parker could hit you a number of times at speed without making penetration, but I guess all he could do was play patty cake too, huh?
2) If you are trying to block incoming attacks from two attackers you are screwed. This also means your Environmental awareness is off. It's not like the movies, if you are about to be attacked by more than one guy don't be reactionary go on the offensive.

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Funny that little "pattycake quick hand jab" that Mr. Mills did to the guy directly in front of him was the exact same shot that he crushed Larry Kongaika and Ron Boswell with, oh but I'm sure your right they are probably just big wusses!:shrug:

This particular demonstration was done with a large amount of control producing very minimal surface contact, however with a little penetration your "pattycake jab" becomes a little sledgehammer.

Two final comments before I leave here.
1) Mr. Parker could hit you a number of times at speed without making penetration, but I guess all he could do was play patty cake too, huh?
2) If you are trying to block incoming attacks from two attackers you are screwed. This also means your Environmental awareness is off. It's not like the movies, if you are about to be attacked by more than one guy don't be reactionary go on the offensive.

What Mr. Mills does works for Mr. Mills and someone with his build, but a 90lb. woman needs to do more to generate power... Larry Kongaika was my instructor for a long time, and I am very familiar with the rythmic timing you guys use. It just doesn't work for everyone. Sorry.

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Paul Mills Parting Wings (Bernie Drakes) (http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_partingwings.htm)


Where's his forward bow? Maybe Paul Mills doesn't need to transition into a forward bow, but what about his students? Maybe the forward bow is out dated? :(

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Larry Kongaika was my instructor for a long time, and I am very familiar with the rythmic timing you guys use. It just doesn't work for everyone. Sorry.


It's worked for everyone I know, that understands it.



What Mr. Mills does works for Mr. Mills and someone with his build, but a 90lb. woman needs to do more to generate power


While these topics are addressed, one could argue that if a 90 lb guy or girl is in a fight they are in trouble. However, it seems that your point was people of smaller stature can't generate power the same way. There are always little tricks that can be used while the individual is learning to generate the power they need, but I'm not even sure I want to fight a 300 to 350lb lineman either. There are limitations in ANY ART based solely on the ratio of each participants size to their opponent(s). To claim otherwise is a lie.


Bill Lear
Where's his forward bow? Maybe Paul Mills doesn't need to transition into a forward bow, but what about his students? Maybe the forward bow is out dated?


The forward bow is not outdated, and you are correct Mr. Mill's stance change is minimal, but it's still there. The reason it is minimal is because he knows how to use the body mechanics from the toes up to the head in order to create and deliver the power for his strikes. This doesn't mean that the stance changes aren't used or aren't taught. Rather the students are taught to maximize the effectiveness of their movements from day one. I.e. each day they should be getting more proficient, and effecient. Day one everyone is taught the Neutral bow to Forward bow from here things get modified as the student continues. At some point you don't need the full forward bow because the summation of your bodies movement can create the same effect with less movement. You never see a boxer hit a forward bow, do you?

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
... This particular demonstration was done with a large amount of control producing very minimal surface contact, however with a little penetration your "pattycake jab" becomes a little sledgehammer. ... Mr. Parker could hit you a number of times at speed without making penetration, but I guess all he could do was play patty cake too, huh?



Yeah, if they're not both moving irratically and you hit them just right while having trained properly for penetrating power and the moon is in correct phase ...

I'm not doubting penetrating power ... it's the use of those techniques in that circumstance if it was real life.




... If you are trying to block incoming attacks from two attackers you are screwed. This also means your Environmental awareness is off. It's not like the movies, if you are about to be attacked by more than one guy don't be reactionary go on the offensive.

Sorry. If I'm in range for attacking both I can be attacked by both. I'm not saying not to go on the offensive, but to hope you are skilled enough under a fluidly-changing circumstance to take out both with a couple of penetrating blows is either overconfidence for most people, or just plain stupid.

So Parker et alia can do it. In real life? Perhaps, but I'd like to see THAT video, which MIGHT have a positive outcome but would look totally different IMO. Even if they could do it this way with any repeatability, it doesn't make it the first option for a sane person defending themselves. If the demonstator in the video was in a real situation, I would hope he would respond much differently, as placing himself sqared off against two people within arm-striking distance shows NO AWARENESS environmentally.

It is far easier to make people get in the way of eachother, and slip from one into the other as you go. Defending against two people can be harder than one (CAN be), but very few are trained to fight coordinatively. I would NEVER stand where he did in the video unless I was dumb enough to be cornered there.

Think of it ... if the dice rolls wrong and your penetrating power doesnt hit right on both at the same time, you'll be caught waiting for your arse to be handed to you.

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

It's worked for everyone I know, that understands it.


For a non-staic attack? Really? How many people end up understanding it? And does their understanding of it change from situation to situation?


Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

While these topics are addressed, one could argue that if a 90 lb guy or girl is in a fight they are in trouble. However, it seems that your point was people of smaller stature can't generate power the same way. There are always little tricks that can be used while the individual is learning to generate the power they need, but I'm not even sure I want to fight a 300 to 350lb lineman either. There are limitations in ANY ART based solely on the ratio of each participants size to their opponent(s). To claim otherwise is a lie.

It's called Self-Defense... It is feasable that someone with that build could have to defend themselves right? I think those tricks are called proper body mechanics... (i.e. properly executed forward bows).


Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

The forward bow is not outdated, and you are correct Mr. Mill's stance change is minimal, but it's still there. The reason it is minimal is because he knows how to use the body mechanics from the toes up to the head in order to create and deliver the power for his strikes. This doesn't mean that the stance changes aren't used or aren't taught. Rather the students are taught to maximize the effectiveness of their movements from day one. I.e. each day they should be getting more proficient, and effecient. Day one everyone is taught the Neutral bow to Forward bow from here things get modified as the student continues. At some point you don't need the full forward bow because the summation of your bodies movement can create the same effect with less movement. You never see a boxer hit a forward bow, do you?

I've never seen a Boxer have to do "Parting Wings" in the Ring. :rolleyes:

[Bill Lear]

By the way... this is turning into a good debate... Lets not try and take anything personal here... I think we can all learn something from this dialogue... :cool:

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
For a non-staic attack? Really? How many people end up understanding it? And does their understanding of it change from situation to situation?



I understand it and love it. It works great for me!!! Go down to Dillians Bar and Saloon in Vegas and youll see the bouncers working the material nightly with success. Personally the timing patterns has added alot of flavor and excitement to my motion and lll bet if you ask Mr. Kongaika he would say the same thing. So would countless others who have learned it from Mr. Mills.
Do keep in mind that Larry hasnt worked with Mr Mills in years and many things are different today then when he was learning it.

I understand it is not for everyone and I can accept that.

But....Please dont confuse your idea and understanding of the material with that of mine or others.

The timing patterns are not a stand alone technique, they are a tool to help you move more explossively. The hands and the body must work together or you will not get the desired results, end of story! I think as an individual developes their body mechanics and become more skilled, they are able to accomplish the same if not more with less effort.

By the way for what is worth, I have never seen a boxer do a complete forward Bow in a fight.

Be Good,

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Thanks Fastmover, that was a great explanation.

Mr. Lear are you saying that someone who learns self defense is unbeatable? I don't think you are, so what are some of the factors that would keep someone from winning a fight?

Skill
Size
Endurance
Environment
Multiple Attackers
Weapons
Chance

To suggest that any individual will win 100% of the fights they engage in is preposterous. The MA training SHOULD help to increase your odds of winning a fight, but there are many other factors involved.

Without incurring the wrath of the Moderators here for jumping off topic, based on your understanding, What is the purpose of the forward bow? What does it accomplish?

To Stucynkski:
The video was merely a demonstration of possible movements based on opponent location. You stated that "BLOCKING two people at once is a far more procatical skill, then you can strike at will." Well I can only assume you meant practical, but when dealing with a single opponent you must worry about a minimum of four weapons that can be used a number of different ways, not to mention combinations. Now when you add an additional attacker you must now be aware of at least 8 weapons that can be used in the varying ways which include, combinations, and simultaneous attack. I simply don't see how waiting to be attacked by two people is more practical than being offensive. That might work in Tai Chi but not in Kenpo. Oh yeah, by the way Mr. Mills owns a nightclub which he bounced in back during Evanstons oil boom years. He's had enough experience cracking heads to know what will work and what won't work.

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Fastmover

By the way for what is worth, I have never seen a boxer do a complete forward Bow in a fight.

Be Good,

I've seen Mike Tyson do it... He used to hit on stepthroughs too...


Originally posted by Fastmover

The timing patterns are not a stand alone technique, they are a tool to help you move more explossively. The hands and the body must work together or you will not get the desired results, end of story! I think as an individual developes their body mechanics and become more skilled, they are able to accomplish the same if not more with less effort.


I'd rather prepare for the worst and hope for the best... The timing drills you are referencing can be pulled of with good transitional stances. I don't buy the last sentence of your paragraph above.

Some people (Generally bigger people don't understand when your technique doens't work on them in a fight... at that point their understanding of your basic shape will change after they mash you into mush by stomping on you.


Originally posted by Fastmover

But....Please dont confuse your idea and understanding of the material with that of mine or others.


I didn't think I was.


Originally posted by Fastmover

I understand it and love it. It works great for me!!! Go down to Dillians Bar and Saloon in Vegas and youll see the bouncers working the material nightly with success.


How many people have they killed? :( No seriously? I used to be a bouncer at a local club here in Los Angeles, and nearly killed someone with a forward bow/heel palm strike to the chest. Anyone there have a similar situation occour over at Dillians?

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
I've seen Mike Tyson do it... He used to hit on stepthroughs too...









We are going to have to agree to disagree on many points. Tyson may have used body rotation to hit but it wasnt a forward bow. Was his back heal on the ground? Most boxers do not punch off their rear hand with their rear heal stuck to the floor. Dont get me wrong here, the forwad bow is a great stance and certainly not useless, it has its purpose as you found out in your bouncing days.

As for simlar situations at Dillians? Yes unfortunately some folks have been hurt. If you check out both technique line videos one of the guys works at Dillions and in my opinion very skilled fighter.

Also have you ever trained or studied with Mr. Mills to make such absolute statements about his methods? You can not be absolute about other understanding of the material.

On another note, I have watched the Tatum video many times and It is clear to me that even though the attacker is moving the arms, it is no way at speed or strength. Still I think the intent of helping others in Kenpo through internet video is prety cool.

As for not buying my statement about folks, developing their body mechanics and becoming more skilled, the result of which they are able to accomplish the same if not more with less effort.
How is it that Bruce Lee AND Mr. Parker could hit hard with a 1 inch punch? Could it have anything to do with good body mechanics?

Be Good

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
... You stated that "BLOCKING two people at once is a far more procatical skill, then you can strike at will." ... when dealing with a single opponent you must worry about a minimum of four weapons that can be used a number of different ways, not to mention combinations. Now when you add an additional attacker you must now be aware of at least 8 weapons that can be used in the varying ways which include, combinations, and simultaneous attack. I simply don't see how waiting to be attacked by two people is more practical than being offensive. ...

I consider this primitive thinking. If I fight you, you will NOT actually have "four weapons" IN RANGE at any one time, and doubling the opponents does not double the threat if you use common sense.

Clarification: Not only can I engage you in a way that will not allow you to reach me with half or more of your "weapons", but if you bring a friend along, I will make you hit him and make him block you and vice versa. This is not some Jackie Chan pipe dream or high level technique. If you practice freestyle sparring in groups you learn this quickly.

The point is that moving around more than one person in simple patterns will cause a lot of their "weapons" to not only be out of range, but will cancel each other out and actually mess each other up.

And this is not "Tai Chi thinking". This is fighting, the theory and practice of which I learned from real experience before I really started studying Tai Chi.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I consider this primitive thinking. If I fight you, you will NOT actually have "four weapons" IN RANGE at any one time, and doubling the opponents does not double the threat if you use common sense.


Okay Sport, first off you know nothing about me or how I fight. Second the video was a demonstration of POSSIBLE movements based on a specifc positioning of opponents. It is not a formal technique in the AKKI curriculum, it was simply a demonstration. My statement about opponent weapons was in reference to the relative positions of the participants in the video. Obviously opponent positioning is an important if not vital aspect of dealing with multiple attackers and you would not necessarily want to find yourself in that particular position. However, seeing as it was a demonstration on how a particular movement (in this case a back knuckle) could be expanded to address multiple attackers in close proximity and not a treatise on multiple attacker strategy maybe we could agree to disagree.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

How many people have they killed? No seriously? I used to be a bouncer at a local club here in Los Angeles, and nearly killed someone with a forward bow/heel palm strike to the chest. Anyone there have a similar situation occour over at Dillians?


The guys at Dillans are freaking Raptors, but that's a different story.

Gene the door guy did thrusting salute to some fool who came up to a group of us standing outside the bar. The kick dropped the guys height and the palm heel crushed him. I honestly wasn't concerned about the situation but Gene told the guy to leave and wasn't satisfied with his response.

Josh accented the parking lot with a huge pool of some guys blood after executing Buckling Arrow (similar to Tripping arrow) and I can only imagine what has happened during New Years or Rodeo finals. Just about every employee there is an AKKI student and they seem to do just fine. Seeing John Herman and the rest of the Wrecking Crew is one of the best parts about going to Vegas.

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Seeing John Herman and the rest of the Wrecking Crew is one of the best parts about going to Vegas.

JOHN HERMAN is a GOOD MAN! :cheers:

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
JOHN HERMAN is a GOOD MAN! :cheers:

Wow it is a small world! :D

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
... it was a demonstration on how a particular movement (in this case a back knuckle) could be expanded to address multiple attackers in close proximity and not a treatise on multiple attacker strategy maybe we could agree to disagree.

You are absoultely right. But still worth the discussion, as I wasn't the only one who inquired for clarification on what the point of the demo was.

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
You are absoultely right. But still worth the discussion, as I wasn't the only one who inquired for clarification on what the point of the demo was.

I think the point of Mr. Mills demonstration was to show that you could strike multiple opponents/targets with increased speed if one was to apply the principle of rebounding in a given situation, but that's just my take on it.

I would say that he was moving in a liquid state (not a gaseous state) in this particular circumstance... Which by the way looked really cool, but could have looked better if the guys in the clip were actually attacking him.

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Paul Mills Video Clip (http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_backknuckle.htm)

The above clip may take a while depending on your download speed.

I couldn't see exactly what he was doing when he sped up, it was a blur to me. Was he still doing two back knuckles in succession when he sped up?

[M F]

I couldn't see exactly what he was doing when he sped up, it was a blur to me. Was he still doing two back knuckles in succession when he sped up?


Yes,
and I believe some elbows as well.

[kenpo_cory]

Ah, ok. I see now he is doing the back knucles, just a lot faster using rebounding.

[dcence]

I would say that he was moving in a liquid state (not a gaseous state) in this particular circumstance... Which by the way looked really cool, but could have looked better if the guys in the clip were actually attacking him.

Actually this is gaseous as well, if one understands the context. This three strike sequence is from one of the AKKI's green belt technique called Swirling Destruction. As taught those three strikes go to one individual attacking from the right flank, grabbing your right shoulder with their left hand, like in Sword and Hammer. At the seminar, Mr. Mills was showing how this three strike combination can be altered to strike two attackers who have approached in a threatening manner.

This leads to the other point of his seminar of not necessarily waiting for an attack before striking. Sometimes preemptive action is appropriate instead of defensive reaction. That is why the individuals are not 'attacking'.

The first back knuckle goes to groin or solar plexus to attacker #1, the second strike can be a backknuckle to face or reverse handsword to neck of attacker #2, with the outward elbow going to the solar plexus of #2. The video clip doesn't show what I remember as a right punch back to #1 reboounding off the outward elbow.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
Actually this is gaseous as well, if one understands the context. This three strike sequence is from one of the AKKI's green belt technique called Swirling Destruction. As taught those three strikes go to one individual attacking from the right flank, grabbing your right shoulder with their left hand, like in Sword and Hammer. At the seminar, Mr. Mills was showing how this three strike combination can be altered to strike two attackers who have approached in a threatening manner.

This leads to the other point of his seminar of not necessarily waiting for an attack before striking. Sometimes preemptive action is appropriate instead of defensive reaction. That is why the individuals are not 'attacking'.

The first back knuckle goes to groin or solar plexus to attacker #1, the second strike can be a backknuckle to face or reverse handsword to neck of attacker #2, with the outward elbow going to the solar plexus of #2. The video clip doesn't show what I remember as a right punch back to #1 reboounding off the outward elbow.

That's still not gaseous to me Derek, critical point maybe but still liquid in nature.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[dcence]

That's still not gaseous to me

Perhaps a matter of point of view. To me it is the essence of gaseous motion to take a technique designed for one person and hit two people with it. You are filling the volume of the space given to you instead of moving mechanically with the set pattern as a solid does, or rounding the corners and elongating circles to fluidly adjust to "what-if" scenarios as in a liquid state. Gaseous action happens when the strike to one person rebounds into a strike to another. That is why Mr. Parker used the term "gaseous", as he explained it to us, because the molecules of a gas repeatedly bounce off eachother and the confines of the container. That is just my personal experience with him.

In fact, an example I've seen used was Delayed Sword against three guys standing to the front. The block went to attacker #1's punch, the kick went to the attacker #2's groin, and the handsword to attacker #3's neck, moving left to right. Any technique can be gaseous.

I would even goes as far to say that you may attain the gaseous state whether it is a single attacker or multiple attacker situation, if your strikes are immediately rebounding off your attacker and yourself into additional strikes to fill the volume of the space between you and attacker.

For example you can mechanically do the a-b-c's of Sword and Hammer like a white belt and move in the solid state. You can begin to elongate the circles and round the corners to move more fluidly and tailor your moves to fit your opponent (like water wraps around an object) as in a liquid state, or you can employ some rebounding, off your opponents and/or yourself, for gaseous. That is the way I look at it.

Though I do believe the gaseous state has most application in multiple attacker situations.

Derek

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by dcence:

"Perhaps a matter of point of view. To me it is the essence of gaseous motion to take a technique designed for one person and hit two people with it. You are filling the volume of the space given to you instead of moving mechanically with the set pattern as a solid does, or rounding the corners and elongating circles to fluidly adjust to "what-if" scenarios as in a liquid state. Gaseous action happens when the strike to one person rebounds into a strike to another. That is why Mr. Parker used the term "gaseous", as he explained it to us, because the molecules of a gas repeatedly bounce off eachother and the confines of the container. That is just my personal experience with him."

It seems to me that Gaseous strikes are simultaneous strikes rather than strikes that are executed within qurarter beat or eighth beat timing sequences. Quarter beat or eighth beat striking sequences are liquid in that these strikes rebound to their next destination like liquid sloshing around in a container. Gas expanding in the same container, on the other hand, meets all the surfaces of the container simultaneously.

This analogy, to me, has more to do with how the liquids and gases move on an asthetic level compared to the human anatomy than how these things move on a molecular level compared to the human anatomy. But, that's just my understanding.
;)

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
It seems to me that Gaseous strikes are simultaneous strikes rather than strikes that are executed within qurarter beat or eighth beat timing sequences. Quarter beat or eighth beat striking sequences are liquid in that these strikes rebound to their next destination like liquid sloshing around in a container. Gas expanding in the same container, on the other hand, meets all the surfaces of the container simultaneously.

This analogy, to me, has more to do with how the liquids and gases move on an asthetic level compared to the human anatomy than how these things move on a molecular level compared to the human anatomy. But, that's just my understanding.
;)


Well, Billy, you have been listening LOL. Good analogy.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Nightingale]

I like your new avatar, Clyde!

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Nightingale
I like your new avatar, Clyde!

Billy made it up for me, I like it too LOL

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Michael Billings]

... are you now LTKKA? Given the new avatar you are using is the same as the one you designed for Clyde?

Just curious? I know you were UKS, but trained with Frank Trejo on and off, and were going to IKKA technique line nights at the Pasadena school. I hate not living in the "Kenpo Mecca" - then again, I hated the smog and TRAFFIC. My dad just sold his house in South Pas so no place close to stay. They kept the West Covina one however.

[dcence]

Thanks for the comments, Zen Dragon.


It seems to me that Gaseous strikes are simultaneous strikes rather than strikes that are executed within qurarter beat or eighth beat timing sequences.

Certainly, simultaneous strikes are part of it, as in say Snakes of Wisdom. Timing applies in liquid and gaseous, but that is not even relevant or the point of my post. The timing is not what you should be focusing on in this discussion because it is a part of both liquid and gaseouos motion. If you understand the mass attack techniques, you will understand that rebounding strikes between multiple opponents and self is in fact a gaseous principle. Take Gathering of the Snakes with the hand and foot strikes that rebound off one opponent to strike another. That is what that technique is teaching with those rebounding strikes. Your weapons are acting like the molecules of a gas colliding with the sides of a jar or another molecule and moving in another direction until it hits something else. (See Newton's laws of physics).


like liquid sloshing around in a container

Avoid sloshing when you can. LOL


This analogy, to me, has more to do with how the liquids and gases move on an asthetic level compared to the human anatomy than how these things move on a molecular level compared to the human anatomy.

Actually it is both. Don't just look at the surface. It certainly has to do with how a liquid and gas move as a whole in a macro sense, but if you stop there, then you miss part of it. It also has to do with what the different states do on a micro, molecular level, as Mr. Parker explained it. There is often more to his analogies than what is on the surface. That is why I said it is a matter of perspective, but sometimes a perrspective is only perceiving half of something.


Well, Billy, you have been listening

If you are listening to Clyde -- be careful. LOL

Thanks for the input. Remember, it is just an analogy. Like Shrek's onion analogy -- many layers. A person will take out of it what his ability to understand allows.

Derek

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

"Billy, off topic but... are you now LTKKA? Given the new avatar you are using is the same as the one you designed for Clyde?"

Yes. I’ve been studying at Mr. Tatum’s school for a little more than a month now. I originally started studying American Kenpo in his studio back in 1994. While some of the faces have changed the studio sure has remained the same.


Originally posted by Michael Billings

"I know you were UKS, but trained with Frank Trejo on and off, and were going to IKKA technique line nights at the Pasadena school."

Yep, I was a member of the UKS. There are many things that contributed to my leaving Bryan Hawkins Studio in West Los Angeles, but nothing personal. Mostly it had to do with the commute.

I still see Frank every once in a while. As for the technique lines in the Pasadena Studio... the last one I attended was at the Homecoming Camp which was a blast.

I don't know if I'll have the opportunity to give you a call tonight, but maybe someltime this weekend?

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by dcence

Thanks for the comments, Zen Dragon.

Oh man! Here we go! :lol:

Derek,

That was an old pseudonym that I posted under on the AKKI board years ago... I think it was back in 1998/1999? Regardless of when... I have since atoned for my sins and reported myself to the proper authorities. :lol: (In other words I haven't posted anonymously in like... uh... er... 4-5 years?, and have apologized for doing what I did back then.)


Originally posted by dcence

[i]Certainly, simultaneous strikes are part of it, as in say Snakes of Wisdom. Timing applies in liquid and gaseous, but that is not even relevant or the point of my post. The timing is not what you should be focusing on in this discussion because it is a part of both liquid and gaseouos motion. If you understand the mass attack techniques, you will understand that rebounding strikes between multiple opponents and self is in fact a gaseous principle. Take Gathering of the Snakes with the hand and foot strikes that rebound off one opponent to strike another. That is what that technique is teaching with those rebounding strikes. Your weapons are acting like the molecules of a gas colliding with the sides of a jar or another molecule and moving in another direction until it hits something else. (See Newton's laws of physics).

Avoid sloshing when you can. LOL

Actually it is both. Don't just look at the surface. It certainly has to do with how a liquid and gas move as a whole in a macro sense, but if you stop there, then you miss part of it. It also has to do with what the different states do on a micro, molecular level, as Mr. Parker explained it. There is often more to his analogies than what is on the surface. That is why I said it is a matter of perspective, but sometimes a perrspective is only perceiving half of something.

If you are listening to Clyde -- be careful. LOL

Thanks for the input. Remember, it is just an analogy. Like Shrek's onion analogy -- many layers. A person will take out of it what his ability to understand allows.

I've read just about every article and book Mr. Parker has written and while I recall him descrbing the gaseous phase of motion in them, I don't recall him ever discussing molecules. I've also seen many video taped seminars he did on the topic... and still no molecules. I understand what you're trying to say, and you obviously understand my view point... Maybe we should agree to disagree?

I don't have to understand the molecular make-up of an onion to know that it makes your eyes water when you cut it. :D You make things so complicated... What happened to sophisticated simplicity? ;)

[dcence]

I've read just about every article and book Mr. Parker has written

Don't think he wrote everything he taught. Don't think he taught everything he knew. I was there when he talked about this. I don't care if it never made it into print. If you think that simultaneous strikes are all that this concept has to offer, you will miss part of it. So you can reject another perspective and miss it, or you can maybe think about it and perhaps find some benefit. That is your choice.

The gaseous state is about expanding your motion to fill the dead space (volume) between you and your opponent or opponents. This can be done in multiple ways, including simultaneous strikes but not to the exclusion of other ways. Don't grab the tail of an elephant and think that is all there is to it.


You make things so complicated

Some things seem complicated to some people. Because one cannot or will not understand, does not make it complicated. Adding is complicated to my 6 year old. To my 9 year old it is easy. That doesn't keep my 6 year old from arguing with the 9 year old about it.

The thing is I don't disagree with your perspective of the concept. But your perspective is only part of it. You are seeing part of a picture, the surface of the concept, and saying that is all there is to it. That is your choice. I am seeing another part, and willing to believe there is more to it than what I see.

Thanks for occupying an otherwise slow Friday.

Derek

[kenpo_cory]

I was wondering, does anyone know if Mr. Parker describes the three states of motion anywhere in the Infinite Insights series? I found a reference to it in The Encyclopedia of Kenpo, but no description.

[Brother John]

I believe he at least touches on it in the first book.
I think.
I'm at work, my books are at home.


I hate that....
:mad:

Your Brother
John

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Brother John
I believe he at least touches on it in the first book.
I think.
I'm at work, my books are at home.


I hate that....
:mad:

Actually he discusses the primitive, mechanical, and spontaneious stages of learning in the first book... I've been doing lots of reading lately. :D