Ninutsu Frank Dux!!! [Archive]

KOGA-NINJA

02-08-2002, 06:48 AM

Hi fellow NINJA'S HERE IS THE KOGA NINJA....

Hi i ve bin training for a lot of years in the art of BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU and also in TEW RYU NINJITSU martial sience!
SHOTOKAN karate and jiu jitsu!

What i think is that the bujinkan don't have the right to claim the name of ninjutsu or 'make a lot of use of the word ninja!

The bujinkan art is made out of nine schools and only three of those schools are NINJA or NINPO schools the rest is JU JUTSU, the bujinkan practitioners with its teachers are training most of the time JU JUTSU the japanese are NOT teaching much of those NINJA schools or ninja stuff!

What people think but what is totaly wrong is that BUJINKAN is NINJUTSU this is clearly not the case BUJINKAN and ninjutsu ARE NOT THE SAME!

BUJINKAN is not even training schools as such they only use the flow of a certain school to practise and perform some techniques, so when HATSUMI say's we are training this year TAKAGI YOSHIN RYU (the theme of 2002) we only use the flow and the way of moving they do in the TAKAGI YOSHIN RYU my teacher is very very good at BUJINKAN and his name is SVEN ERIC BOGSAETER 13 th dan BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU!
He is not very often talking about ninjutsu because his words are i am not graded in ninjutsu but in the art of BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU nothing more and nothing less!

Now enough about BUJINKAN!
next SUBJECT!

Frank DUX and the KOGA YAMABUSHI FU YA NINJUTSU

A lot of people very much from BUJINKAN and GENBUKAN are critizising about the treuth surrounding MR FRANK DUX!
Mr FRANK DUX has an own life and an own story, my opinion is that mr FRANK DUX is not getting the credits and respect he deserves!
He is a master of the KOGA YAMABUSHI FU YA NINJUTSU and Fought different fights there are videotapes of this fights in black and white and they are kept in the safe of mr DUX his LAWYER MIKE FRANKLE""

Mr FRank Dux has studied the art of the NINJA (koga yamabushi ninjutsu) by master sensei SENZO TANAKA, but he wasn't the only one there is another person who learned this style art and way of the ninja living in america and he is JAPANESE (for the tradition freaks)
His name is HARUNAKA HOSHINO it was family of Mr TANAKA!
You can find him on the internet on the search engines, HOSHINO also has a student and that is the ENGLISH man STEVEN BARLAAM 4 th dan KOGA YAMABUSHI FU YA NINJUTSU!
E-mail sensei HOSHINO for further questions surrounding DUX!
Dux had also a student his name is RICk TEW he made the traditional art more modern to this times and it WORKS so i train it!
And those **** that people say about Ö dux has hit (following the media) through bulletproof glass thatswhy he is fake!

At first that story is made by the media and wasn't true!
It happend al different but a lot of people just believe that and take it for the treuth!

Second: A family member is a technical engineer and he told me even if you have bulletproof glass and you have a strong force that you can direct on a bigg surface, the force is coming on the glass with a ring or a nuckle even BULLETPROOF GLASS breaks!
Believe what you want.
Styles are not important tradition means nothing if you only know all this THEN you get layed down in 30 seconds in a real fight!
It is al about attitude and confidence!

PEACE and RESPECT the KOGA NINJA!!

Please check out the new video's from JUAn HOMBRE and the traditional KOGA RYU NINJUTSU!

Don Rearic

02-08-2002, 11:16 AM

WOW. Frank Dux and Dux Ryu stuff is not fake, you learn something new every day.

And he really was a Government Agent too, see, all of the people that proved he was B.S., they're really B.S.! :rolleyes:

By the way, is "Ninutsu" a Castration Art? :D

Jay Bell

02-08-2002, 02:07 PM

Anyone have any aspirin?

GouRonin

02-08-2002, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by KOGA-NINJA
Hi fellow NINJA'S HERE IS THE KOGA NINJA....
A lot of people very much from BUJINKAN and GENBUKAN are critizising about the treuth surrounding MR FRANK DUX!
Mr FRANK DUX has an own life and an own story, my opinion is that mr FRANK DUX is not getting the credits and respect he deserves!

Maybe if he didn't lie about the things he's done and the places he's been then more people would take Frank Dux more seriously. Maybe the guy can do some stuff but he's a liar about his history and has puffed up his creditials more than a pillow in your bed.

:rolleyes:

Rubber Ducky

02-08-2002, 04:12 PM

C'mon Gou, it's not unusual for Martial Artists to lie like mattresses about their history.

There's well-respected (ability-wise) martial artist that many people here have stated they have learned much from who has a questionable history as well.

I do Aikido and you can't tell me that the stories floated about Ueshiba Morihei are all true :)

Pierre

GouRonin

02-08-2002, 04:24 PM

Damn you! You KNOW he could shoot lightning out of his ass.

Now don't hold out on us. Who is this questionable person? Is it me?

Ah ha ha ha!:rofl:

Rubber Ducky

02-08-2002, 06:10 PM

Yeah, I knew about the lightning, but it's the part about being the Reincarnation of Bodhi Dharma, Jesus Christ, Mohammad, and L. Ron Hubbard that I don't believe.

Cuz we all know that Hubbard was born way after O Sensei!

As for naming names, my flame retardant suit is in the cleaners so I think I'll refrain. But thanks for the invite. :erg:

Pierre

GouRonin

02-08-2002, 06:56 PM

Damn you and your silly skirt!

:rolleyes:

Cthulhu

02-09-2002, 01:08 AM

Frank Dux = fraud

End of story.

Cthulhu

Chiduce

02-09-2002, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Rubber Ducky
C'mon Gou, it's not unusual for Martial Artists to lie like mattresses about their history.

There's well-respected (ability-wise) martial artist that many people here have stated they have learned much from who has a questionable history as well.

I do Aikido and you can't tell me that the stories floated about Ueshiba Morihei are all true :)

Pierre Sir, i don't mean to interfere with anything here. Yet i cannot in good faith believe that any individual could down another martial artist when they do not know who and what they are really about! We all claim to be about the martial way, practice this way as we may see fit and prove to only ourselves how high and mighty that we are! I think here that there is a presumption of guilty before it can be proven! Is this not bias; yet the dictionary says that ignoring is a sign of intelligence! I guess you can't believe the definition of a word also! I stand enough pain hitting steel with my hands 3 days or more a week than coming to a forum of supposedly, well respected martial arts practitioners, teachers, historians and students to experience negative bias without actual fact! Yet, even if fact did exist to prove the point in question, should it not be expressed in private first and not blurted out like a child crying for attention? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Rubber Ducky

02-10-2002, 03:47 PM

Chiduce, could you translate that into English for me?

I didn't name any names, nor did I make any overt implications. I did this on purpose.

My point was that the instances of inflated and fabricated "histories" of martial arts and martial arts instructors/founders are legion. This does not always reflect on the skill of the martial artist in question.

Pierre

GouRonin

02-10-2002, 09:32 PM

%$#@ the martial way. The martial way can kiss my @ss.

Seriously, who is to tell anyone else what the martial way should be about?

You float your own boat and I'll worry about how seaworthy mine is.

That's what i think.
:asian:

Dennis_Mahon

02-11-2002, 08:53 PM

my teacher is very very good at BUJINKAN and his name is SVEN ERIC BOGSAETER 13 th dan BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU!

Then you must know Peter Carlsson, eh?

Where, exactly, did you say your dojo was located?

GouRonin

02-11-2002, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Dennis_Mahon
Where, exactly, did you say your dojo was located?

You'll never find him. He's a ninja. They're sneaky.
:rofl:

Rubber Ducky

02-12-2002, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by GouRonin

You'll never find him. He's a ninja. They're sneaky.
:rofl:

Careful Gou, I think I hear some guitars wailing...could be a Ninja just waiting to FLIP OUT!

:ninja:

Pierre

Jay Bell

02-12-2002, 02:56 PM

Sven Eric is very good at what he does. He's part of the Shi Tenno, which are four people from Europe/UK that are the models of how things should be done in the Bujinkan.

Gou -- If you have anything of value to add, I'd be glad to hear it. If not...I wouldn't.

Koga Ninja -- If you do your homework on Frank Dux and "Koga ryu", you would soon discover how true it is that it is not in any way traditional or legitemate Ninpo. I'm glad you enjoy your training with Koga ryu....I really am....however that doesn't mean that you aren't being had.

If you enjoy it, by all means have a good time with the training. Yet getting on a board with people that have done their homework on these topics is pretty counter-productive.

GouRonin

02-12-2002, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Rubber Ducky
Careful Gou, I think I hear some guitars wailing...could be a Ninja just waiting to FLIP OUT!

**running away**

Ronin

03-27-2002, 09:16 PM

One should have respect for martial arts however time will always tell who is a fraud and who isnt.

ThuNder_FoOt

03-29-2002, 07:36 AM

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the site and I'm just trying to find out more information on Ninpo, as my knowledge of the art only extends to a few books by Steven Hayes. I love martial arts, but as far as Ninjutsu goes, there isn't much info out there, atleast I haven't found much. I did run into a few guys that studied "Tew-ryu"at the DragonFest convention, and they were able to tell me a little bit more about Ninpo. "Tew-ryu" sounds like a great style, but my personal fascination is with more traditional styles as they told me this was not Tew-ryu's history.

You guys sound really knowledgable of the art, and I apologize if I sound a little ignorant, due to lack of knowledge. Could anyone recommend a good source of information/history on some traditional Ninpo? I hope to study this art in the future, but I first want to know what's available to me. Thanks in advance. :asian:

Jay Bell

03-29-2002, 03:28 PM

Hey Thunder,

Probably the best site for historical information is Matts Hjelm's site.

www.kabuto.nu

Hope that helps some,

Jay

Jay Bell

04-05-2002, 02:09 AM

Here is a thread that was written by M.C. Busman back in 1999 concerning the legitamacy of Frank Dux:

(updated 10/2000)Every once in awhile I get an e-mail from someone
asking about the Dux-Ryu ninja school, or if Frank Dux, the fellow who
claimed to have fought in numerous "secret" kumite (sparring) matches,
fought as a war hero, and set "world records" for things like speed,
number of knockouts in a row, etc. is for real.

If you mean Frank Dux is "real" in the sense that he breaths and takes
up space, I guess that probably comes pretty close to the truth. If you
mean to ask, is he a legitimate martial artist, or has a credible
military career, or is honest and truthful, the answer is a resounding
NO.

Dux is one of the biggest fakes--if not ~the~ biggest con in the
martial arts community. This isn't just my opinion, it's a fact. Here's
the evidence (see end for references). . .

In May of 1988 (over 10 years ago!), reporter John Johnson of the Los
Angeles Times ran an expose of Frank Dux and his numerous lies. He
showed once and for all that Dux has never been in any international
"Kumite", or any tournament at all, for that matter. His only trophy,
which he had supposedly won in a secret competition in the Bahamas (all
those people, and it stayed secret except for Frank, who blabbed...),
had been manufactured in North Hollywood by the W.R. Moody Co. This is
not far from Dux's home town of Woodland Hills. Dux also claimed that
these supposed secret fights had been hosted by an organization called
the "International Fighting Arts Association", a group which reporter
Johnson said led only back to Dux himself! The most damning thing about
Dux though, even if one were to overlook his lies about having a secret
ninja teacher named Senzo Tanaka (Tanaka, like in James Bond films--no
evidence of such a person in the US or Japan has ever been uncovered),
rescued boatloads of Filipino orphans, or set any kind of martial arts
speed record (he didn't--please notice the only source for this spurius
information is Dux himself! His "knockout" and "speed" records have
never been proven or verified!), is the fact that Dux has ~lied~ about
his military career.

Frank Dux fabricated phony newspaper articles, including one from the
Washington Star, which painted him as some sort of military hero. When
LA Times reporter Johnson checked with the archives of the 'Star, they
told him no such article existed--another bold fake! In Fact, Dux's
records show he never even left the Continental US during his short
time as a RESERVE Marine, and in the words of Johnson, "His only known
war injury occurred when he fell off a truck he was painting in the
motor pool"(1988, 4). Johnson also writes that;

"His military medical file. . .said that on Jan. 22, 1978, he was
referred for psychiatric evaluation for expressing "flighty and
disconnected ideas." Though as a member of the reservs, which meant he
was on active duty only a short time, he reportedly insisted that he
was working for an intelligence agency." (1988:2)

Dux also made the blunder of mixing up Army and Marine awards on his
uniform, ~none~ of which were legitimately his. He even claimed to have
been ~secretly~ awarded the ~~Congressional Medal of Honor~~ by
Congress! Now, if you think hundreds of members of congress can keep
any sort of secret, you're really crazy! But Dux is somehow convinced
people will buy his lies (and surprisingly, many do!!). He doesn't
realize, or denies to himself that his tall tales hurt real veterans,
those who actually paid the price for our nation while he was a
youngster fantasizing about playing spy games and being a ninja master.

Dux's Book, "The Secret Man" is also completely contrived. Soldier of
Fortune did an expose on this fictional work of his, and debunked his
bogus military claims once and for all. The August 1996 issue included
a review called "Full Mental Jacket". The title of the article alone
should let you know what real military men think of his stories. SOF
mentioned this loser again in the Nov. 1998 issue in an article by
Larry Bailey entitled "Stolen Valor: Profiles of a Phony-Hunter". Dux
is shown wearing his incorrectly displayed and mixed Army and Marine
Medals! The book "Stolen Valor" by B.G. Burkett is over 700 pages long,
and is devoted to unmasking military fakes--he devotes 4 pages to Dux's
fakery, debunking his hollow claims once and for all.

If you're still in doubt about this psychopathic clown, check out Court
TV online for a recounting of his exaggerations and subsequent loss in
court to Van Damme in a lawsuit last year.

It is a fact. Frank Dux is a Lying phony who has profited from
gulliability and the sacrifices of truly honorable people. Don't just
take my word--research the sources below for yourself:

Bailey, Larry. (1998). "Stolen Valor: Profiles of a Phony-Hunter", in
Soldier of Fortune. November 1998, 58-61, 73. [SOF backissues available
online from SOF website]

Burkett, B.G. (1998). Stolen Valor. Verity Press, TX. [should be
available online. check www.stolenvalor.com)

Court TV Online. (1999). "Frank Dux v. Jean Claude Van Damme". Link to:
http://www.courttv.com/trials/vandam/index.html

Johnson, John. (1988). "Ninja: Hero or Master Fake?", Los Angeles Times
Valley Edition, Metro Section Part 2, pg 4. May 1, 1988. [call LA Times
archives at 1800-788-8804 for your copy]

Soldier of Fortune. (1996). "Full Mental Jacket". August 1996.

Don't be afraid to check this guy out. Recently his make-believe
empire composed of impressionable CSU students has started falling down
around his head. His students are slowly discovering that "The emperor
wear no clothes", i.e. that Dux has been lying about his past.

One more thing to consider about Frank Dux's claims to have been a
secret military operative, employed by the CIA, etc. Does anybody
think that if Dux were actually telling the truth, and TRUELY had seen
or done anything of value regarding sensative information, that ANY
government would take the chance of letting such a ~blabbermouth~
live?

As for his martial arts tales, NO ONE can verify ANY of Frank Dux's
claims, from secret teachers to secret competitions. There are
numerous skilled NHB fighters making the rounds today who make his
claims look downright fictional (fittingly). We are expected to
believe that even out of all the other supposed competitors and
sponsors, nobody remembers of talks of these events except for Frank
Dux! And--with all of the supposedly consecutive knockouts he did (56,
he claims!), not one was in any public competition, nobody can verify
any of this? With all the fellows he's supposed to have fought, how
did this thing remain a secret--until he "let the cat out of the bag"?
C'mon. The pathology on this guy is unreal. Even the best conditioned
guys today don't go undefeated, or claim 56 knockouts in a row, or have
20 matches or more a day--or go years without being able to show a
shred of proof for any of their claims. The sad thing is that so many
trusting people take him at his word, to extent that one so-called
"Martial Arts Hall of Fame" (Frank Sanchez's Sokeship Council in
Florida) awarded this pathological liar a "Lifetime Achievement
Award"! Too bad it didn't specify "For Fraud" on the plaque!

Frank Dux has a lot of gall. Gall that is neither normal nor a sign of
being rooted in reality.

Caveat Lector.

M.C. Busman

Jay Bell

04-09-2002, 10:13 PM

Update on Frank Dux:

http://www.teemax.com/truth.html

Cthulhu

04-09-2002, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Jay Bell

Update on Frank Dux:

http://www.teemax.com/truth.html

Lots of damning info about Dux. Thanks, Jay.

I don't know about this 'American Ninjitsu', though...

Cthulhu

KumaSan

04-09-2002, 11:45 PM

Personally (and this is just a pet peeve), I'm wary of anything claiming Japanese lineage and using the romanization of -jitsu. Speaks to me of a fundamental lack of understanding of the culture and language. BJJ is a notable exception, and I'm told that -jitsu is an acceptable phonetic expression in Europe, but I still don't like it.

Cthulhu

04-10-2002, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by KumaSan

Personally (and this is just a pet peeve), I'm wary of anything claiming Japanese lineage and using the romanization of -jitsu. Speaks to me of a fundamental lack of understanding of the culture and language. BJJ is a notable exception, and I'm told that -jitsu is an acceptable phonetic expression in Europe, but I still don't like it.

I was the same way, until I found out that it is possible to use the romanization of '-jitsu' as long as the character for 'jitsu' (truth) is used.

So, if they translate their system as the 'art of so-and-so', but spell it with '-jitsu' rather than '-jutsu', I'd say there was a misunderstanding of the language present.

Cthulhu

KumaSan

04-10-2002, 12:38 AM

Good point, and I have seen this, but they are few and far between. I have no problem with people messing this up if they don't know any better (used to do it all the time), but if they are claiming to speak authoritatively for some style or other (usually super-secret hidden in a cave for the last bajillion years), then they should at least know the difference between -jutsu and -jitsu.

ThuNder_FoOt

04-11-2002, 12:19 AM

Thanks for the info everyone. I didn't know that much about Frank Dux, except for van Damme's movie on kickboxer. This kinda had me baffled... why does a movie titled kickboxer, star a ninjitsu master? (is it ninjitsu or ninjutsu??)

Kinda weird to me. Why is Van Damme sueing Dux anyways?

I don't know... it seems as though my quest for a good ninpo school will be a long one. It sounds like there are many frauds out here in the U.S. I mean with fakes like Ashida Kim and Frank Dux... i don't know what I'll do. What does everyone think about Tew-ryu? I'm not sure if its true ninpo.

One more thing... what's the difference between ninpo and ninjistu/ninjutsu?? Sorry for the naivety.

Cthulhu

04-11-2002, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt

Thanks for the info everyone. I didn't know that much about Frank Dux, except for van Damme's movie on kickboxer. This kinda had me baffled... why does a movie titled kickboxer, star a ninjitsu master? (is it ninjitsu or ninjutsu??)

Well, I think the movie you're actually referring to is Bloodsport. Either way, they're both crappy flicks.

I don't know... it seems as though my quest for a good ninpo school will be a long one. It sounds like there are many frauds out here in the U.S. I mean with fakes like Ashida Kim and Frank Dux... i don't know what I'll do. What does everyone think about Tew-ryu? I'm not sure if its true ninpo.

I thought Tew-ryu was created by someone who broke away from Dux-ryu. Unless something else was added or significantly changed, you'd still be practicing fake ninjutsu.

Cthulhu

Jay Bell

04-11-2002, 02:45 AM

is it ninjitsu or ninjutsu?

It's Ninjutsu. Any martial art based discription is "-jutsu".

Why is Van Damme sueing Dux anyways?

I think there's some Court TV documents on their website that explain a lot of the situation...I haven't read it in some time though.

One more thing... what's the difference between ninpo and ninjistu/ninjutsu??

Ninpo is considered the higher order of ninjutsu. Somewhat of taking Ninjutsu beyond physical techniques.

Sorry for the naivety.

Don't ever apologize for trying to expand your knowledge.

If you check out Winjutsu (http://www.winjutsu.com) , there is a list of Bujinkan schools in the Yellow Pages.

Shinzu

04-20-2002, 08:04 PM

i really hate when MA's lie about their knowledge and experience. that really stinks. he's the vanilla ice of martial arts:rofl:

Ronin

05-23-2002, 06:04 PM

Sadly if it smells it stinks! Imagine how many smaller scale martial artists out there are frauds. No wonder there is such a huge gap between a good martial artist and a bad one. Their Instructor doesnt know jack!!

ThuNder_FoOt

05-24-2002, 08:17 AM

It seems though Cthulhu was correct in the fashion that Tew-ryu is a break away from Dux-ryu. Geez, I'm not sure what I was being told about a trip to the mountains for ninja stealth training. The way it was described was really disturbing. Is this typical training regime?

Thank you to Jay Bell on the information on the Bujinkan. Now this is true ninjutsu? I mean who is to say? I just hope I'm not receiving a biased opinion from Bujinkan students... because Dux-ryu students could claim the same thing, right? I guess I must begin my quest for information before I can begin my quest for a school.:asian:

John Bridges

05-27-2002, 05:10 AM

Well I've trained in the Bujinkan for a few years now and yeah some of us can be biased, but thats the same in any art, if looking for a school of ninjutsu just make sure you do your homework and trust your gut feeling. You'll know whats right and whats a crock. :asian:

Jay Bell

05-27-2002, 04:06 PM

I mean who is to say?

Simply put....history

Fitolandia

05-07-2003, 01:14 AM

Amen :)

Hi to everybody

kenmpoka

05-07-2003, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Here is a thread that was written by M.C. Busman back in 1999 concerning the legitamacy of Frank Dux:
I met this guy (Frank Dux) personnally, and have had long conversations with him, and on a few occasions a few beers as well. "if you lie long enough, you'd believe it yourself". He is a typical hollywood made up guy, with some martial arts knowledge picked up from here and there. He surrounds himself with legit Martial artists such as Sifu Wong and others to gain credibility. He was smart enough to jump on the ninja band wagon in the 80's and make a buck or two. For a secret russian/Cia double agent , he sure does not speak a word of russian or any other languages except english. A few years back, he had a brain tumor removed which has effected his speech and sight. He is actually a very mellow and naive guy. He is currently working on another octagon type fighting tournament.

Scooter

05-08-2003, 01:19 PM

As far as Dux goes, I think his matial exploits have been explained (or exposed) on here well...as far as his "military" record, that can be verified or disproved easily due to the recent FOI laws in effect (that weren't when he initially made the claims).

As far as Sensei Hoshino goes....do your homework! His real name isn't Hoshino (at least not originally). He changed it to such years back, and no, he's not even Japanese.

heretic888

05-15-2003, 01:09 AM

I dunno guys, I'm 'a kinda scared to talk about Dux.

He might Real Ultimate Fight me to death, you know. :rolleyes:

Anyways....

What i think is that the bujinkan don't have the right to claim the name of ninjutsu or 'make a lot of use of the word ninja!

Considering Masaaki Hatsumi is the Soke of the ONLY remaining Ninjutsu ryu, and the majority of the other ryuha practiced in the Bujinkan are associated with the Iga ninja, I am inclined to disagree.

The bujinkan art is made out of nine schools and only three of those schools are NINJA or NINPO schools

Actually, Ninpo is taught in almost all of the Bujinkan ryuha (from what I've been told anyway). And most of the schools are closely tied with the Iga ninja to begin with (for example: Tozawa Hakuunsai, 'founder' of Gyokko-ryu Shitojutsu, was also a student of Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu and an Iga-ryu 'jonin' [Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu and Koto-ryu Koppojutsu come from Gyokko-ryu Shitojutsu]. Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru, 'founder' of both Kukishinden-ryu Happo Hikenjutsu and Shinden Fudo-ryu Dakentaijutsu, was also a student of Hakuun-ryu Ninjutsu and the family Izumo was one of the forty five families of the Iga-ryu).

the rest is JU JUTSU, the bujinkan practitioners with its teachers are training most of the time JU JUTSU the japanese are NOT teaching much of those NINJA schools or ninja stuff!

Actually, the only Bujinkan ryuha that I know of that teach 'jujutsu' (or rather, 'jutaijutsu') are Kukishinden-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu, and Takagi Yoshin-ryu. And, with the possible exception of Takagi Yoshin-ryu, those schools all have 'ninja ties' to one degree or another.

What people think but what is totaly wrong is that BUJINKAN is NINJUTSU this is clearly not the case BUJINKAN and ninjutsu ARE NOT THE SAME!

That depends on what you mean by 'ninjutsu'. Context is everything, my friend.

If you mean 'the arts of stealth, espionage, stealing-in, and bein' sneaky', then yes, only a few ryuha in the Bujinkan teach that definition of 'ninjutsu' (four, to be exact).

If you mean 'the martial arts developed and used by the ninja culture in ancient Japan', then almost all the ryuha in the Bujinkan are a form of 'ninjutsu' (most of them were historically part of the collective known as 'Iga-ryu ninjutsu').

Laterz.

suzatru

08-27-2007, 07:12 AM

Hiranaka Hoshino's student Steven Barlaam is not English...he's Italian.

bydand

08-27-2007, 11:21 AM

Hiranaka Hoshino's student Steven Barlaam is not English...he's Italian.

Dude, you jump onto a thread that has been idle for over 4 years. Go over to the meet and greet section and introduce yourself at least. Don't know who dinged you for this post but it isn't very fair for making a statement.

Kunochi

01-14-2008, 07:35 AM

Please forgive me for making my very first post so long. In reviewing the past threads on Frank Dux and Bloodsport I became very disenchanted, as I thought what a "Ninutsu Frank Dux" but then I met Frank Dux, at a seminar. After questioning him about te controversy he politely referred me to some truly credible sources where it became very apparent to me the members whose wisdom I had deferred to are either ill informed or like me, are being mislead.

Frank Dux bona fides became verifiable when he attempted to have his day in court and confront his accusers and the false allegations against him; those same allegations and sources being referred to and repeated in the threads, I had reviewed prior to my meeting him.

In cases of libel and slander, it is incumbent upon the plaintiff, Frank Dux, to prove first and foremost to the court that the allegations made against him were entirely false - which included his proving he is a Kumite champion (as documented by Black belt magazine, Nov. 1980; in fight footage he presented to LA Times editorial staff but the editor and reporter John Johnson refused to view the videos as this killed Johnson's slant on the story; Ed Parker, the founder of American Karate, amongst other Martial Art authorities vouched for the existence of the Kumite and Dux winning it to John Johnson of LA Times whom, it turns out responded by concealing these facts from the reader. Instead, the reporter purposefully juxtaposed statements within his article to render an entirely new meaning. His tone in his article is so venomous he resorts to subliminal and manipulative writing devices of leading the reader and engages in hateful name calling, absent any semblance of journalistic objectivity.

Included in the Dux v SOF case exhibits (available through PACER) were Dux authentic Department of Defense Duty Discharge (DD 214) papers that establish Frank Dux is trained and served in defense of his country, as an intelligence specialist. This is contrary to what was reported by SOF and John Johnson, who claims to have reviewed the same military documents, under FOIA. The majority of actual verifiable facts regarding Frank Dux appeared with his having sued Soldier of Fortune magazine for libel and slander, who promoted the controversy.

FYI - Robert K. Brown who owns SOF had also created at this time another controversy by having portrayed the founder of SEAL Team Six, the secret US anti-terror unit, Dick Marchinko, a fraud, as well. The evidence Dux attorney, Steven Kramer, presented, revealed that Brown used his magazine and the appearance of journalistic objectivity to financial benefit himself as he was competing with Dux and Marchinko to get his SOF TV series project green-lighted with Jerry Brucheimer, over their competing film projects. All the while hiding behind Times v. Sullivan the case law that allows tabloid journalism to exist, as it allows unethical journalists, like John Johnson I believe to be to make false and misleading statements without fear of being sued.

In the Dux v Van Damme case, Dux finally had the opportunity to expose the so called smoking gun evidence and allegations being leveled against Dux by LA Times Reporter John Johnson, with Johnson representing that Dux had bought his trophy. The receipt was removed by the court as evidence when it became revealed on its face to be fabricated by the reporter, John Johnson, and that the only sources of John Johnson and SOF and other detractors all stem from Frank Dux business competitors or disgruntled ex-students expelled from his system, like David Richardson, believed by many of Dux students I conferred with to be hiding behind the name, B.C. Busman. Responsible for originating and manufacturing many of the misleading and libelous statements regarding Dux.

Logan

01-15-2008, 08:19 AM

Geez.... let it die already.... I don't think many people care anymore....I couldn't even finish reading that bollix....

kcs

01-15-2008, 12:47 PM

i agree and the same for ashida kim. i am tired of hearing about these two. mod please delete this thread.Geez.... let it die already.... I don't think many people care anymore....I couldn't even finish reading that bollix....

kaizasosei

01-15-2008, 01:03 PM

if you're so happy doing what you do, then why bother bashing or picking away at others? that goes for people of all arts.

j

kcs

01-15-2008, 02:08 PM

i see threads all the time people bashing the hatsumi and the bujinkan. so it is ok for them to do it?? we can defend ourself. i am not bashing anyone i am agreeing this thread needs to die.if you're so happy doing what you do, then why bother bashing or picking away at others? that goes for people of all arts.

j

Grey Eyed Bandit

01-15-2008, 08:43 PM

You paint an old mansion using mustard, and then you put out a newspaper ad that says "Mansion for sale". And then this guy comes along to look at it, and you tell him "go ahead, taste the mustard", but what he doesn't know is that you've mixed it with some extremely powerful sedatives. So he falls asleep, and then you load him up in a trunk which you load onto an airplane bound for Grand Canyon, and then you bury the trunk at the bottom of Grand Canyon, and then when you come back his relatives are like "where is he, where is he!?!?"

And you're like, "well, you're gonna have to look for him, I can tell you that much."

Brian R. VanCise

01-16-2008, 08:19 AM

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

Brian R. VanCise
MartialTalk Super Moderator-

blood shadow

01-17-2008, 12:36 AM

ah poor koga ninja the first mistake he made was thinking he was a koga ninja.the second was that he is ninja.

Doc_Jude

01-17-2008, 03:10 AM

ah poor koga ninja the first mistake he made was thinking he was a koga ninja.the second was that he is ninja.

I think you have those backwards.

I thought that Dux lost that case with Van Damme over rights to "Bloodsport" and "The Quest" since he totally failed to produce any proof of his Kumite performance, in addition to his hoaxter behavior being revealed. Wasn't that what happened? I thought he got a little money over the script, as far as being the concept originator but wasn't able to prove that it was autobiographical.

Haiookami

02-18-2008, 01:05 PM

Its Tibetan in origin so there is a 5000 year history of peace driving it onward today

benkyoka

02-18-2008, 06:06 PM

Its Tibetan in origin so there is a 5000 year history of peace driving it onward today

Why don't you just post your knowledge here for the benefit of everyone?

JadecloudAlchemist

02-18-2008, 08:19 PM

I thought that Dux lost that case with Van Damme over rights to "Bloodsport" and "The Quest" since he totally failed to produce any proof of his Kumite performance, in addition to his hoaxter behavior being revealed. Wasn't that what happened? I thought he got a little money over the script, as far as being the concept originator but wasn't able to prove that it was autobiographical. Here is one of the links concerning the Hard copy tv report of that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxOvOxM2hMg

Its Tibetan in origin so there is a 5000 year history

I too would like to read about this.

Kunochi

06-04-2008, 06:58 PM

There are always two sides to every story. I came across Frank Dux myspace page:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=346595645

I also came across an impartial objective article he refers to in his About Me section, entitled Frank Dux aka The Secret Man written by award winning investigative journalist, John Stevens, International News Service, in 2008.

John Stevens accuracy and completeness in reporting makes for a good example of the difference to be found between legitimate skilled journalists searching for the truth and people hiding behind pseudonyms trying to pass themselves off as objective investigative reporters, like M.C. Busman on *********.com, that owe Mr. Dux an apology.

I think M.C. Busman didn't really do his homework or is intentionally spinning the facts to serve his own hidden agenda, but then again, Stevens is an award winning real investigative reporter, well known to Oregonians.

Please, take notice of the plethora of sources the International News Service reporter uses and how those sources being referred to regarding Dux on other sites also mysteriously go without mention that they were sued for libel and slander and shown to be serving their own agenda by which to financially gain by way of maligning Dux - YELLOW JOURNALISM ala Randolph Hearst, Enquirer stuff.

FRANK DUX AKA THE SECRET MAN by John Stevens, International News Service, March 7, 2008

Senate Intelligence Oversight/Congressional Hearing witness - Iran-Contra paymaster, Lt. Commander, Alexander Martin, USN, under penalty of perjury, identified Mr. Frank W. Dux as a covert operative who is responsible for having briefed him as one of the architects of Operation Cordoba Harbor.

Lt. Cmdr. Alexander Martin stated: “During my intelligence career, I have met with and been introduced to many covert operatives, whose existence has often been officially denied by the government agencies that these parties have been associated with. One of these covert operatives was one Frank Dux”

Major General Anatoly Korneinko, USSR, acting as an official spokesperson of Ukrainian/Former Soviet Military Authority declared, under penalty of perjury, Frank Dux is one of the world’s finest operatives, dubbed “O’hutnick” trans. “The Hunter.”

Major General Anatoly Korneinko in the forward of Dux book The Secret Man, HarperCollins, 1996, identified Frank Dux as having been trusted to have led a Top Secret operation at the height of the cold war between the USSR and US, that’s success or failure possibly determined the deployment of weapons of mass destruction.

Frank Dux activities are so secret his activities were even concealed from many of the people he served. Thus, it earned him the moniker – The Secret Man.

Kreth

06-04-2008, 10:19 PM

Interesting, googling "john stevens" + "international news service" reveals nothing relevant, other than a link to Dux' Myspace page... I would think a well known journalist would have at least a few more articles online somewhere... :rolleyes:
Now since you're obviously an associate (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=986560#post986560) of Dux', who really has an agenda, especially considering your only two posts here are rants against his critics... :idunno:
Oh, and as for Dux winning his court case against Van Damme, strangely this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUH5WUbikrQ) from Hard Copy says that Dux lost, and in fact his testimony was considered "less than credible."
Maybe MC Busman isn't the one who needs to do his homework.

Obi Wan Shinobi

06-05-2008, 02:30 PM

lol

newtothe dark

06-06-2008, 08:17 AM

Some of these never end him and Kim just wont go away sad.

Brian R. VanCise

06-06-2008, 10:19 AM

Kichigai-no-Okami

06-09-2008, 05:22 AM

Obi Wan Shinobi

06-27-2008, 02:25 PM

Well after doing some investigations of my own it seems that the International News Service ceased to exist after merging in 1958 with United Press Association to become the United Press International ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_News_Service (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_News_Service) ). So obviously anything associated with Frank Dux should be taken with a grain of salt. As far as I can see in reference to Dux there has been alot of evidence presented showing this man to be a:
1. Fake Ninja
2. Fake Military decorations
3. Fake CIA
4. Fake Kumite story
I especially take offense to number 2 on the list being that I was in the Marine Corps myself and have high respect for any member of the U.S. Military especially now with the War on Terror. With that said any award or medals awarded to those warriors are most definitely earned. So for this guy to just come in and wear medals not earned is definitely a disgrace.

orang_baik

07-24-2008, 08:55 AM

No 4. WHere the **** is this kumite right now !!!!

Well after doing some investigations of my own it seems that the International News Service ceased to exist after merging in 1958 with United Press Association to become the United Press International ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_News_Service (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_News_Service) ). So obviously anything associated with Frank Dux should be taken with a grain of salt. As far as I can see in reference to Dux there has been alot of evidence presented showing this man to be a:
1. Fake Ninja
2. Fake Military decorations
3. Fake CIA
4. Fake Kumite story
I especially take offense to number 2 on the list being that I was in the Marine Corps myself and have high respect for any member of the U.S. Military especially now with the War on Terror. With that said any award or medals awarded to those warriors are most definitely earned. So for this guy to just come in and wear medals not earned is definitely a disgrace.

Obi Wan Shinobi

07-25-2008, 12:32 PM

No 4. WHere the **** is this kumite right now !!!!

Good question....

blood shadow

07-26-2008, 04:47 AM

it lives on in the dreams of idiots that watch to many movies by the way the koga ninja are dead and so is their art sad to say.

Josh Oakley

09-30-2008, 07:32 PM

So, I found out Frank Dux lives in my city and I've been doing some cross-training with him. What I'll say is he's an amazing teacher, and I've been doing martial arts for 20 years. Personally, from my association with him, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would make up things about himself. I know there are a lot of people who don't and wont believe he could actually be for real. I've done some research on my own and I haven't seen any claims against him that actually stand up. Naturally, he could STILL be lieing, but I haven't seen enough credible information for or against him. For now, what I see is a teacher who is sincerely interested in my growth, and has given me great results.

I know this is kind of an old thread. I have an article from Harjit Singh Sagoo (sp?) that Frank sent me when i asked him about about some of these things. I don't remember what magazine it's supposed to be in, but it was interesting.

terryl965

09-30-2008, 08:05 PM

If you are learning and are happy that is what is the most important thing. If you also believe the value of his training is good and right for you, I say enjoy and keep training.

ElfTengu

10-03-2008, 06:54 AM

After a quarter of a century of pretending to be a ninja and stealing stuff from other martial arts to make into a mish mash, it would be more worrying if he WASN'T pretty good at generic martial arts, at least enough to convince impressionable young folk, I mean all the fakes can't be as bad as Ron Duncan and Ashida Kim can they?

Even Choson Ninja on Youtube is a pretty good martial artist if you like lots of kicks and fancy clear cut McDojo techniques, and at least he keeps fit and seems to care about people.

But this isn't what makes these people genuine or fake. It is the simple fact that their arts don't have any connection to the historical ninja of Japan, or to Seiko Fujita, with whom the Koga tradition died. The connection with Hoshino also raises red flags, as Hoshino has a known history, mainly Korean.

It is ironic that if any of the 1980s fakes had actually trained with the Bujinkan or another X-Kan, with the same fervour that they promote their fake ninjutsu for the last 25 years, they would be among our top teachers now, shihan in their own right.

George Kohler

10-03-2008, 11:36 AM

The connection with Hoshino also raises red flags, as Hoshino has a known history, mainly Korean.

Hoshino wasn't Korean. He was half Chinese and Japanese with a background in Kendo and Shorinji-ryu karate. One thing that Hoshino had that most didn't was his knowledge on the books Bansenshukai and Shoninki and his ability to read them.

ElfTengu

10-03-2008, 12:40 PM

Hoshino wasn't Korean. He was half Chinese and Japanese with a background in Kendo and Shorinji-ryu karate. One thing that Hoshino had that most didn't was his knowledge on the books Bansenshukai and Shoninki and his ability to read them.

He apparently used a Korean name at some point prior to using Harunaka Hoshino. I can't remember where I heard that but it wasn't the internet. He was claiming to be a 'master' of other stuff before the ninja boom.

I do hope you haven't got a pair of jim jams with big skulls on George!

George Kohler

10-04-2008, 12:27 PM

No, I am not a skull and bones member. :)

I have an article on Kabutowari (helmet splitter) from him prior to the ninja boom and his name was Yuan something and that he taught kendo and Shorinji-ryu (Renshinkan). Dale Seago, who studied under him for a short time, said he was half Chinese and half Japanese, and that he took his mother's last name of Hoshino. I will see if I can find the article when I get home.

Josh Oakley

10-06-2008, 04:49 PM

Josh Oakley

10-06-2008, 04:53 PM

ElfTengu

10-06-2008, 05:43 PM

Why would a whole line die with one guy? Weren't there hundreds of ninja families? Keep in mind I'm a newb when it comes to this history. But it seems this is a historical controversy on two fronts: 1) Whether the Koga line died with one man, and 2) Whether Fujita Seiko ever passed on his skills.

There were many tens of families, if not hundreds, who passed on skills that have since been categorised under the umbrella term 'ninjutsu', but they didn't consider themselves ninja or shinobi or anything like that, it is a name applied later in most cases and many of their skillsets would have been as different as chalk and cheese.

Fujita Seiko may very well have had a successor, but you or I will never know anything about it, nor most Japanese researchers, let alone gaijin wannabe Koga ninjas who are looking for something that requires less hard work than the Takamatsuden arts and is full of karate kicks and other such nonsense. Fujita Seiko stated publicly that his knowledge would die with him which was either A) perfectly true, or B) a smokescreen to hide any successors. What he would not have intended is for Americans and Brits to take his name and the Koga name in vain and dress up silly for the cameras. Modern Koga ninjutsu could not be more obviously made up thousands of miles away from Japan if it came with ketchup and fries. Takamatsu Sensei, on the other hand, made no secret of his history in his final years and named his successor clearly without forbidding him to teach foreigners or claiming to take any secrets with him to the grave.

The only way there could possibly be any 'controversy' over whether Fujita Seiko had a successor would be if he chose a big mouthed incompetent idiot with no integrity who couldn't wait to produce large numbers of hooded weirdos around the world. It also wouldn't explain how all the stuff that people claim is Koga (or Koka or other pointlessly misleading spellings) ninjutsu plainly has no Japanese influences, or bears any resemblance to the written works that were left by Seiko.

Koga is gone forever man, deal with it and get with the real deal.

Cryozombie

10-06-2008, 05:43 PM

jks9199

10-06-2008, 05:56 PM

Is it really so hard to believe that people simply stopped teaching something over time? In many ways, European martial arts died out with the advent of gunpowder and "modern" military tactics. Only because some dedicated martial arts have worked hard to revive and rediscover the treatises do we have an idea about them.

Many traditional crafts have died out over time; countless martial styles have as well when their teachers simply failed to pass them on. Why is it so mind-boggling that Koga (or any other) ryu ninjutsu did, too?

Josh Oakley

10-06-2008, 07:19 PM

Like I said, I'm a ninja history newb. It could be possible that the koga line, but for everyone I've found who says the koga line is dead I've found another that says it's alive and kicking. Some with pictures.

It's more of an intellectual pursuit for me anyway. I care if a person can fight, and more importantly, if they can teach ME to fight. My primary art is Shaolin Kempo. There's doubt as to the veracity of the history of Sho tung kwok, which differentiates SKK from Nick Cerio's Kempo. Quite frankly, I care more that it teaches me to fight better.

James Mitose, who is solely responsible for bringing kempo to Hawaii, used to walk around dressed like a monk, but history has shown that he was definately never a monk. There's doubts to William K.S. Chow's history, but he's a bigger name in Kempo than James Mitose. I tend not to worry myself too much with historical controversy except as an intellectual pursuit.

Having met, trained under, and hung out with Frank Dux, I don't believe He's lying about his past. However, regardless of his past, I'd still train with him for one reason and one reason alone: training with him is sky-rocketting my own martial arts, and in fact helping my Shaolin kempo.

Cryozombie

10-06-2008, 07:49 PM

Josh Oakley

10-07-2008, 01:11 AM

Like I said. For me it's an intellectual pursuit. I have a big drive to learn new things. Do I really NEED to have a bigger drive than mere curiosity?

I love studying history; it's not black and white for most of it. Right now what I'm doing is putting up bits of info I've come across, and seeing what else comes up. I can't remember who said it but someone once said, "If we each have one apple, and we trade our apples, we each still have one apple. If we each have one idea and we trade ideas, now we each have two ideas."

I never go for just one side of a story, as no viewpoint is correct. But the more viewpoints I find, the broader understanding I get. Plus, I rarely learn anything new by not challenging the generally accepted. Whatever version of history I choose to follow, the act of questioning and counter-example are fun for me, and I learn a lot. So I'll say again, what's wrong with mere curiosity? What's wrong with throwing up counter-examples to see what others come up with? That, as I recall, is the process of historical inquiry. I do this with American and Christian history. Why WOULDN'T I do this with ninja history?

Cryozombie

10-07-2008, 04:15 AM

*Shrug*

To me, It sounds more like "Hitler wasn't a Nazi" than challenging the ideas that say "Hitler was evil". Facts are Facts, and refuting them doesnt change them.

But what do I know.

ElfTengu

10-07-2008, 04:28 AM

Look Josh, there's a couple of things.

Firstly, I think Mr Dux is probably believing his own stories by now, and this goes for some of the other long term fakes as well, I mean, would you want to admit that everything your life was based on was a web of lies and deceit? It is too late for Dux and Kim, but it is not too late for their 'supporters'.

The other thing is that if the arts of Mr. Dux have 'skyrocketed' your Shaolin Kempo, then this is probably because the martial skills of Mr. Dux are taken from arts like kempo, rather than ninjutsu. Kempo is a fine art but you can tell from looking at it that its practitioners aren't overly concerned with hiding the techniques from onlookers, whereas taijutsu is somewhat more clandestine. If there were people fighting in a crowd, you would most likely spot the Kempo guy fighting his opponent but probably not the taijutsu guy. I'm not saying one art is better than the other, I'm just saying that taijutsu considers aspects of fighting that kempo does not worry about so much, i.e. a low profile during execution.

And when you look at supposed 'Koga Ryu' footage, it just isn't sneaky, and it clearly draws mainly from non-Japanese sources.

Josh Oakley

10-07-2008, 04:24 PM

Josh Oakley

10-07-2008, 06:17 PM

*Shrug*

To me, It sounds more like "Hitler wasn't a Nazi" than challenging the ideas that say "Hitler was evil". Facts are Facts, and refuting them doesnt change them.

But what do I know.

Go study history in general (and in specific) and you'll find that truth is nuanced. More often than not, we don't have facts when it comes to history, we have testimony. Viewpoints. This is less a matter of "Hitler wasn't a Nazi" and more a matter of "Constantine was a Christian".

Notice both statements are false. However, for over a millennium, it was a broadly accepted FACT that Constantine was a Christian. It's only in the past hundred years or so that it became a broadly accepted FACT that Constantine is NOT a Christian.

You are right that Facts are Facts, and that refuting them doesn't change them. However, continued speculation and healthy skepticism are the kind of scholarship that sheds new light on what we believe to be facts.

SAW67

10-13-2008, 03:24 AM

The allegation Frank Dux lost his breach of contract suit with Van Damme by asserting he failed to prove up his martial art achievements is deceptive, as it is suggesting no substantive evidence existed. Flying in the face of this false allegation is a one hour Court TV documentary special and the Court TV televised trial, itself, having exposed Judge Kaddo; ruled FRANK DUX WAS NOT ALLOWED TO PRESENT HIS SUBSTANTIVE CREDENTIALS AND ACHEIVEMENTS BECAUSE VAN DAMME ATTORNEY MARTIN SINGER HAD SUCCESSFULLY CONVINCED THE JUDGE IT WOULD UNFAIRLY INFLUENCE THE JURY IN FAVOR OF FRANK DUX. [Frank Dux v Jean Claude Van Damme, Case No: SC 046395, Superior Court of California, Los Angeles County: http://lasuperiorcourt.org (http://lasuperiorcourt.org/)]
Judge Kaddo’s ruling stems from Van Damme’s attorney Martin Singer having attempted to introduce into evidence Soldier of Fortune magazine, that had repeated the same libelous and slanderous allegations that appear in a highly inflammatory and unbalanced LA times Editorial and a SELF-PUBLISHED book, Stolen Valor, by B.G. Burkett. The LA Times EDITORIAL deceptively disguised to appear like an article (because you cannot force retraction of opinion) is written by Dux ex-wife’s family acquaintance, John Johnson, at a time Frank Dux and his ex-wife April were in the midst of divorce proceedings and Dux stood to testify at Irangate Contra Hearings. Stolen Valor is written by ultra right wing extremist Swift Boat supporter, B.G. Burkett. All three sources benefit by undermining Frank Dux credibility. Especially, regarding his government whistle-blowing as documented in The Secret Man, HarperCollins, 1996 (pg 64-65). B.G. Burkett, admittedly, never interviewed Dux. Reminiscent of the perception management tactics employed by Joseph McCArthy, B.G. Burkett’s slant (like SOF magazine’s Alexander McColl and Larry Baily) is unmistakably unbalanced with his subversive labeling, accusatory and deceptive reporting style. Just like, John Johnson, B.G. Burkett is selectively citing ONLY Frank Dux business competitors along with other personages and institutions with a motive to not tell the truth. Like Johnson, B.G. Burkett is also presenting as credible, fabricated evidence. Notably, B.G. Burkett making over 600 unsubstantiated false and inflammatory allegations, as documented in the Legal Analysis (http://www.duxryu.8m.com/Analysis) & Breakdown: Stolen Valor by B.G. Burkett/Gleena Whitley in Frank Dux vs. Robert Brown, Alexander McColl, Larry Baily and Soldier Of Fortune Magazine, Case No: BC198883, Superior Court OF California, Los Angeles County [http://www.duxryu.8m.com/controversy.html] Mainstream journalists readily expose B.G. Burkett unethical pattern of behavior is one of engaging in and supporting misinformation for political ends, directly linked to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Soldier Of Fortune magazine Larry Baily. The Lubbock Avalanche-Journal (March 20, 2005) exposed the swift boat lies and identifies Larry Baily as one of the ministers of misinformation

John Kerry pointed out on Imus, September 15, 2004 - his group to John McCain called him "The Manchurian Candidate". They spread rumors that he had a black child when they were down in South Carolina, that his wife was a drug addict. They actually challenged the quality of his service while he was a prisoner of war. They challenged his character. They lied about him again and again. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6009011]
B.G. Burkett deceptively features in his book Stolen Valor a photo of Frank Dux in a military uniform, accompanied by an unsubstantiated and false allegation Dux is part of a public speakers tour profiteering as a phony Vietnam veteran. In actuality, Dux book agent Joel Gotler under oath confirms at the so called time in question Dux has never been part of any Vietnam veteran speaker tour but a short lived sponsored book tour, arranged by HarperCollins. The alleged incriminating photo is in actuality taken of Frank Dux (by his vindictive ex-wife then girlfriend) while still in costume, on his way to attending his college student film class wrap party, a decade earlier. [www.martialarts.jameshom.com (http://martialarts.jameshom.com/) & Declaration of Jeffrey Stromph, Deposition of Joel Gotler, Frank Dux v Jean Claude Van Damme, Case No: SC 046395, Superior Court of California, Los Angeles County; Frank Dux vs. Robert Brown, Alexander McColl, Larry Baily and Soldier Of Fortune Magazine, Case No: BC198883, Superior Court OF California, Los Angeles County: http://lasuperiorcourt.org (http://lasuperiorcourt.org/)].
Likewise, B.G. Burkett followed Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in issuing a series of equally false allegations against presidential candidate John Kerry's heroic military record; Kerry awarded the Purple Heart and Silver Star. Fox channels’ Hannity and Colmes, August 26, 2004 edition, exposed B.G. Burkett underhandedly attempted to diminish and link Kerry's post-Vietnam War service to Jane Fonda by doctoring a photo by which to leave yet another false impression, just like B.G. Burkett did with Dux. Making it appear Kerry was standing alongside Jane Fonda, while B.G. Burkett is making the unsubstantiated and false allegation Kerry had called his fellow Vietnam Veterans rapists and murderers and Kerry had committed war crime atrocities of killing innocent women and children. [http://mediamatters.org/items/200408300005?f=s_search]
Subsequent to Van Damme’s counsel presenting in his Motion for Dismissal these three self serving sources, Soldier of Fortune Magazine, The LA Times Editorial And Stolen Valor as credible only to have backpedaled with the unveiling of the verified facts in a court of law, Frank Dux legal counsel Steven Kramer filed a libel and slander suit against SOF magazine, Robert Brown, Alexander McColl, Larry Baily. Thereby, resulting in publicly exposing all of these sources of being interconnected and misleadingly deceptive and fraudulent - just as in the case of John Kerry, John McCain, or anyone else diametrically opposed to their politically extremist right wing agenda. [Frank Dux v Jean Claude Van Damme, Case No: SC 046395, Superior Court of California, Los Angeles County & Frank Dux vs. Robert Brown, Alexander McColl, Larry Baily and Soldier Of Fortune Magazine, Case No: BC198883, Superior Court Of California, Los Angeles County: http://lasuperiorcourt.org (http://lasuperiorcourt.org/)].

Of course, with Dux being denied the opportunity to present evidence regarding his substantive credentials and achievements this adversely affected the outcome of his case with Van Damme. Nonetheless, this is a false and misleading conclusion this is why he lost his case with Van Damme.

Point Of View magazine that covered the entire Dux v. Van Damme trial points out amongst other unprecedented acts of favoritism (like the judge allowed Van Damme’s witnesses to sit in the courtroom to hear each other testify whereas Dux witnesses are sequestered), columnists Jennie and Terrie Frankel write:

"The judge karate kicked Dux below the belt with a series of unprecedented rulings that precluded the testimony of any rebuttal witnesses, any impeachment witnesses and all actual eyewitnesses to the deal. Kramer (Dux's attorney) argued these witnesses were critical to his case, but to no avail."[www.martialarts.jameshom.com (http://martialarts.jameshom.com/) ]

TimoS

10-13-2008, 03:37 AM

Point Of View magazine that covered the entire Dux v. Van Damme trial

Point of view magazine? Googled it and found this:
http://www.jnjgateway.com/home.jhtml?loc=USENG&page=viewContent&contentId=fc0de00100000779&parentId=fc0de00100000779
POINT OF VIEW Magazine is one of the leading nurse publications in the United States. It has a 40-year history of being a voice for nurses on issues that are pertinent to their needs.

So, a nurse magazine covers the trial of an martial arts "expert"? Why? Of what interest is it to their readers? And even if it did, they hardly sound like experts on legal matters to me :D

Or maybe it's this one http://www.docorg.ca/pov_magazine.html

POV (Point of View) magazine is the premiere journal in Canada about documentaries and independent films made in Canada and abroad. Over the past year, we have explored the differences between documentary film and photography and the changing nature of exhibition in Canada and abroad due to new technologies. We have continued to publish longer essays by filmmakers that describe their philosophy and practice with pieces by Kevin McMahon and Peter Wintonick.

Again, hardly legal experts, I would say

ElfTengu

10-13-2008, 04:54 AM

Not to mention it is wildly off topic.

Other than definitively not being a ninja, or having any genuine qualifications in ninjutsu, I REALLY don't care what else Dux claims to be, and can't see what the point was of the post before last.

Van Damme is a ballet dancer with a bit of martial arts experience. He is hardly Dolph Lundgren, who at least won genuine European full contact tournaments, even if his acting skills are on a par with Jean Claude's.

As for the Dux Damme case, there is nothing funnier than two Hollywood obsessed egocentrics trying to sue each other.

At least Van Damme has never played a ninja, we must be thankful for that.

ElfTengu

10-13-2008, 04:55 AM

Josh Oakley

10-14-2008, 01:01 AM

Point of view magazine? Googled it and found this:
http://www.jnjgateway.com/home.jhtml?loc=USENG&page=viewContent&contentId=fc0de00100000779&parentId=fc0de00100000779

So, a nurse magazine covers the trial of an martial arts "expert"? Why? Of what interest is it to their readers? And even if it did, they hardly sound like experts on legal matters to me :D

Or maybe it's this one http://www.docorg.ca/pov_magazine.html

Again, hardly legal experts, I would say

There was a hollywood magazine called POV. It's not around now, but I found a couple of articles online. I have yet to find the one in question, however. Edward Sussman was the editor of the magazine in question.

Josh Oakley

10-14-2008, 01:35 AM

As far as what saw posted, I'd say it's interesting for sure and it gives me more to reasearch, but it was a bit of a non-sequitor. Frank dux could have been a real spy and a real hero, but still a fake ninja. The two are not interdependant. So proving really was an intelligence agent would not prove he was a ninja. In his defense, however, He's not the first to go off topic. Other people brought up fake military decorations, fake military history, etc.

But I digress.

The point of contention is whether his lineage is Koga Yamabushi Ninjutsu. In my oppinion, the real bone of contention is whether or not Koga Ninjutsu died with Fujita Seiko. Even if Seiko himself says he was the last Koga ninja, which I haven't seen him say, that would not necessarily be the final word.

Now ElfTengu says makes a good point. Not sneaky=not ninjitsu. I feel I should have clarified: I study FASST which is really a training method (Frank uses the term technology) instead of a system. So I can't even claim I've done Dux-Ryu ninjutsu. My best friend, however, was trained in Dux-ryu Ninjutsu. He is a clandestine fighter. What he's shown me looks more like "X-kan" than it looks like Kempo.

Would Dux-ryu Ninjutsu do for me what FASST has done? Don't know. But it's not like he hides the fact that Ninjutsu is not the only art he's studied.

sky

10-14-2008, 10:23 PM

I was one of those eyewitnesses to the Dux and Van Damme transaction and was scheduled to appear in the Dux v. Van Damme trial. I would have provided testimony that proved Van Damme breached his contract to Dux but the judge not only arbitrarily prevented me from testifying but ended the trial on that same day I was to be sworn in, when the trial was scheduled to continue for three more weeks!
The trial was so brazenly biased in favor of Jean Claude Van Damme that this also included Court TV’s coverage, Court TV's Online Bryan Lavietes lunching with Van Damme and his legal counsel and entourage. Whenever Dux side was making headway, the telecast would switch to cover another story.
For example, missing from Court TV's Online blog are substantial material facts. For instance, there is no mention of the pivotal testimony of Jose Bermudez or the revelation Richard Alexander was NOT Dux friend for 20 years (contradicting what Court TV's Online Bryan Lavietes falsely reports on the site) nor was Richard Alexander who he said he was. No mention of cross examination appears on Court TV's Online, that reveals Van Damme’s star witness Richard Alexander is a felon, named Richard Shimer, or that Kramer exposed Van Damme committed 28 separate counts of perjury, etc. The felon discredited to the point Judge Kaddo would not allow Kramer to continue his cross examination, raising eyebrows. [A recidivist, Richard Alexander aka Richard Shimer’s last booking number is 2007070730 and his Ontario county criminal history number is 39966]
I suspect the producers of Court TV took notice of Kramer’s closing arguments and were compelled to have produced a one (1) hour documentary special to protect their credibility, if not shield themselves from civil liability the result of the unfair and unbalanced reporting of Van Damme’s associate, Court TV's Online Bryan Lavietes. I surmise this atmosphere of transparent bias might explain how afterwards, the trial Judge was removed from holding his court in LA Superior Court, in LA, and transferred to holding it in the ghetto, in Compton.
The reason Dux did not prevail is obvious. It had nothing to do with his inability but his being denied his right to present his bona fides and his supporting evidence, in court, where and when it mattered!
If you want to know the real truth about Frank Dux and how I have known him for well over twenty years, visit www.fasstduxryu.com and follow the link to my blog:
http://fasst.blogspot.com

Josh Oakley

10-15-2008, 01:07 AM

Ok Josh... Im gonna sound like a dick here... but I HAVE to ask.

If you dont actually give a **** if someone is lying about their history to you/the world as long as you are happy with what you are doing... why bring it up and get busy trying to refute the facts that are presented?

Also, when it comes to training, I don't care what a guy's lineage is. but when we're talking about history, I don't think he's lying.

Besides, he's not the only ninja (if he is one) that has a little difficulty proving the existence of his instructor.

Isn't Hatsumi still trying to prove that Toda Shinryuken existed?

Cryozombie

10-15-2008, 01:55 AM

Isn't Hatsumi still trying to prove that Toda Shinryuken existed?

Not insofar as I know... It's fairly well established that he existed, I know there were some questions as to whether Takamatsu had trained with him or was born after his death... but these arguments are generally from the same group of people who claim Hatsumi didnt train with Takamatsu, and yet there is filmed footage of them, which, call me wacky... is proof. And even so, In my mind there is a difference between proving the guy who trained you existed and some guy generations back.

Its like the difference between Me saying "My father was a pirate and I learned Pirate'n from him" and you Saying "I'm a decendant from William Kidd"...

If you are missing a step in your lineage but have logical evidence to connect you, but I cant even prove who my daddy was... well... Yeah. Theres a HUGE difference.

But whatever man. I'm glad you are happy with your version of Ninja history and all. I'll stick to the documented evidence, you stick to the rumors and secrets a guy tells you. At the end of the day it makes about as much difference as the guy claiming his Taekwondo School is teaching "Jedi Martial Arts" in another area of the forum... *shrug*

Go Go Power Ranger!

Josh Oakley

10-15-2008, 03:28 AM

Please remember that I am still developing my version of ninja history. I'm still deciding what to believe. And when it comes to history, I'm not going to stick to black and white because history is not cut and dry. But while I'm still researching, I have no problem with training with a guy who has done a lot for my fighting (and the cost was yard work once a week).

What I've read says that Toda was Takamatsu's instructor and Takamatsu was Hatsumi's. So it wouldn't be some guy generations back.

So essentially, if I were a Dux-Ryu Ninjutsu instructor, like Sky, then I would have a vested interest in proving the existance of my instructor's instructor. Just like Hatsumi is doing (again, from what I've read).

And quite frankly, what consists as documented history, I have no problem being skeptical about, for reasons stated earlier. Documented history is what some guy told another guy in written form.

Cryozombie

10-15-2008, 04:05 AM

If you say so.

ElfTengu

10-15-2008, 04:36 AM

JadecloudAlchemist

10-15-2008, 08:52 AM

There is no such thing as a title Koga Yamabushi.

Also just because a sect practices Shugendo does not mean they practice Ninjutsu. It is highly unlikely anyone who practices within the Shugendo sects practices any martial art let alone Ninjutsu. It is highly unlikely that Any Ninjutsu was taught to some foreigner by those in the sect.

Josh Oakley

10-15-2008, 04:28 PM

Again, I'm a newb. What's shugendo?

Josh Oakley

10-15-2008, 04:44 PM

If you say so.

Look, man, I'm researching. If you don't like what I ask or bring up, just don't respond. Shooting me down doesn't help me discover anything. I'm not a Frank Dux Zombie. I'm just a guy with a high level of curiosity.

Yes I train with Frank. Big deal.

When I was in high school dating a Mormon I went to their seminary. I'm not a mormon, and never will I be, and I fully understand why, because I heard things I just can't go with, and I heard it from the source.

Here's the fun thing: Frank encourages me to do my research. I've asked him far more uncomfortable questions than I've asked you. Never once has he even hinted that I should stop asking questions even about his personal life, even if the question is not comfortable for him.

You've discouraged questioning, because you know all the answers.

Where I'm different from you and from Frank is I don't know anything and I'm skeptical of all of you and I don't hide the fact.

This is also why I keep the history separate from the training itself. Is it still possible in this day and age to research critically both sides of a story? Heck, ask Sky. I've told him the same thing.

So again, if you're not interested in helping me, don't respond. The passive agressive response is passe and useless.

Josh Oakley

10-15-2008, 05:04 PM

What you have to bear in mind is that Hatsumi Soke does not care what people think. He does not feel the need to prove anything to curious foreigners on the internet. 'Someone' 'found' Toda Soke's grave recently and it appears that it was never lost, it's just that Hatsumi Soke doesn't want ninja tourists traipsing all round it like what happened with Takamatsu Sensei's grave which upset his widow. We are now requested not to go there and Soke rarely makes such a definitive statement.

Also, Toda Soke was not only Takamatsu Soke's teacher, he was his grandfather, and as far as I know, everyone has two grandfathers, unless their parents are siblings, so he must have existed, as a grandfather at least.

It does get suggested every now and again but if people are really bothered about Hatsumi Soke's authenticity they should go and see him.

It's not like he is some American who mysteriously siddenly airs his own style of ninjutsu coincidentally slap bang in the middle of the ninja boom, and at least Hatsumi Sensei or his own teacher did not have the disrespect or egotism to rename their arts or system after themselves.

The one bonus is that the same thing is less likely to happen with the MMA boom because you have to put your money where your mouth is in MMA.

Thanks for your response, I always find your posts helpful. I didn't know Toda was Takamatsu's grandfather. This is good information.

One thing I'll say however is I don't necessarily think it's disrespectful or egotistical to name an art after yourself. Take Ed Parker, for example. Everyone I've ever met who trained under him thinks the world of him. He wasn't known to have a big ego. He named his art Ed Parker's American Kenpo because it had changed significantly from what he'd learned in Hawaii.

There are many people throught history who have created a style and named it after themselves. Usually it's because they incorporate other knowledge into the style. Some give it their name, and some do not. Why automatically assume ego?

Thing is I've met the guy and he really doesn't seem very egotistical. Maybe he was in the eighties. I wouldn't know, I didn't know him back then. But the people that know him well I don't normally hear talk bad about him.

Brian R. VanCise

10-15-2008, 05:10 PM

Josh people are just trying to help you in your discovery process.
Many people come on here asking about Frank Dux and have to
research to find out if they wish to believe his stories. Your doing
the same so good luck! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

Josh Oakley

10-15-2008, 07:03 PM

Now here's something interesting I found. Frank told me to look up the Kempeitai. I had never heard of it before so I googled it and found out it's a branch of the Japanese military that did counter-intelligence, psy-ops, POW stuff, and provision of "comfort" women and "comfort" houses.

There's a book I found called White Terror: Cossack Warlords of the Transiberian by Jamie Bisher.

It lists one Colonel Tanaka Kushinige as being a member of the Kempeitai, and some of the things that he was involved in when it came to the russians. What's interesting about this was it is the first link I've ever found that did not direct me back to one of the FASST/Dux-Ryu sites.

Here are the things I'll have to check, still:

1. The history of Jamie Bisher. Is he credible? Does he link back to Frank in any substantive way?

If there's any connection to Frank than the question of bias must be asked, whether or not he's a real historian. Is he generally respected as an expert in his own field? If the guy's legit, and has no connection to Frank Dux, than this would be the first time I've seen a link from an outside source.

2. Is this the same Kushinige Tanaka?

That would of course be important. There could have been more than one Tanaka Kushinige in history. What makes this interesting is the guy is cited as a spy in the Kempeitei. Now what Frank has told me is that Tanaka was BRITISH intelligence as well. If this Tanaka was the same Tanaka Frank calls his instructor, he would have had to been at some point in his life a member of each intelligence service. This is not hard to imagine, but even if something can add up logically, it still may not be true in reality.

3. Did this Tanaka know Koga Ninjutsu?

Obviously a deal breaker. He could have been a real spy and really trained Frank Dux, and it STILL may not have been Koga and it STILL may not have been ninjutsu (this, by the way is something Frank doesn't question, but it's something I will).

I have no idea when Tanaka was born or died. but the book I found shows that this Tanaka was Kempeitai in 1919, and the early twenties. From this I can make one of two conclusions: He may have been trained by Seiko OR the Yamabushi.

Neither of those would necessarily be proof. Seiko trained a lot of people, and in his own writings he claimed never to have trained anyone in Ninjutsu. He may be lying or telling a truth, but i can't think of a way to verify it.

From what I've seen, the Yamabushi trained Seiko because essentially he refused to leave them alone, even though he was not one of them.

Why not another? And would Seiko necessarily know about him?

This of course would need more than speculation. It could have occurred, but did it?

4. Did this Tanaka know and train Frank Dux?

The reason i bring this up is because he could have been THE Kushinige Tanaka, could have been a spy in the requisite agencies, and could even have been a true Koga Ninja. He was a spy in 1919. How old was if and when he met Frank? Frank is in his early fifties. He'd have to have been just a kid when he learned.

Granted, that's exactly what Frank claims.

5. Is this account corroborated?

If Kushinige Tanaka was in two countries (three, counting russia), there would be documentation of it. Now if he was a spy, maybe these records are harder to get at. only further research will see.

Obviously these 5 questions I have not answered. It took a month of research just to get to this point. But that's why I like history. It's a wonderful puzzle.

I'm just scratching the surface.

Plus the way i see it, even if I find it wasn't the same tanaka, I'll have a good education on the kempeitai, russian intelligence, British intelligence, and a couple of other topics.

I haven't come with any real conclusions, because conclusions get in the way of research. But I sure am having fun!

Cryozombie

10-15-2008, 08:11 PM

Look, man, I'm researching. If you don't like what I ask or bring up, just don't respond. Shooting me down doesn't help me discover anything. I'm not a Frank Dux Zombie. I'm just a guy with a high level of curiosity.

Nah man, see here's the thing... YOU keep saying, in a nutshell...

"I don't know anything, I'm trying to learn, but I don't care what the evidence from multiple sources say, I have no reason to disbelieve Frank. Everyone else is just giving "their version" of the history, and it's probably wrong."

So... I say... "if you say so". I don't care if you believe or not. I'm not falling for it, but you can enjoy whatever version of history you wanna believe. If you wanna believe that magic Tengu demons created the art in a dream, or secret chinese monks, or some guy who's movements are very Korean in nature claiming its a Japanese art, or some anonymous teacher on a secret mountain in japan that can never be reached, or that ninja never existed, or any other of the variety of the unvireifed/unverifiable stories I have heard ... thats fine with me. I don't care. I pointed out what the most widely accepted history from numerous sources not all connected said, if you choose to ignore all that more power to you.

JadecloudAlchemist

10-15-2008, 10:12 PM

Shugendo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugendo

From the accounts I have read concerning the Yamabushi into modern era
I can not find any info concerning training in any Ninjutsu or any complete martial art. The only martial art aspect may be that used in ritual acts such as Kagura.

Josh Oakley

10-15-2008, 11:16 PM

Nah man, see here's the thing... YOU keep saying, in a nutshell...

"I don't know anything, I'm trying to learn, but I don't care what the evidence from multiple sources say, I have no reason to disbelieve Frank. Everyone else is just giving "their version" of the history, and it's probably wrong."

So... I say... "if you say so". I don't care if you believe or not. I'm not falling for it, but you can enjoy whatever version of history you wanna believe. If you wanna believe that magic Tengu demons created the art in a dream, or secret chinese monks, or some guy who's movements are very Korean in nature claiming its a Japanese art, or some anonymous teacher on a secret mountain in japan that can never be reached, or that ninja never existed, or any other of the variety of the unvireifed/unverifiable stories I have heard ... thats fine with me. I don't care. I pointed out what the most widely accepted history from numerous sources not all connected said, if you choose to ignore all that more power to you.

Who said I'm ignoring it? I'm still finding it all!

ElfTengu

10-16-2008, 04:43 AM

The word 'boom' is the crux here.

Ninjutsu has been around in a recogniseable form for around 1000 years.

Formal Ryu existed for centuries and centuries.

Oriental martial arts became most popular in the rest of the world in the 20th century. Jujutsu and judo were well known early in the century.

Now, if I was an expert in traditional pirate skills, including fighting with cutlasses, hooked poles, flintlock pistols etc, and decided to make my art public, do you not think it would be suspicious if overnight other people popped up, saying "I'm a pirate too". It would be called the 'Pirate Boom'.

It is also called a bandwagon.

Out of all those centuries, what is the likelihood that the most secret of arts would emerge from different places at exactly the same time?

One thing I am sure of, and that is that if there are still other ninjutsu ryuha in existence in Japan other than those handed down to Hatsumi Soke or the fragments remaining in some koryu arts, it would seem they are not eager to jump on any bandwagon and it may be a long time, if ever, before they surface.

p.s. there is another Koga ryu claimant with clips on Youtube, who at least is Japanese, but he too is not authentic according to popular opinion.

Cryozombie

10-16-2008, 01:35 PM

p.s. there is another Koga ryu claimant with clips on Youtube, who at least is Japanese, but he too is not authentic according to popular opinion.

And slightly off topic, but can someone correct me on somthing?

"Koga" was a region, right? Why is it all the "super secret" arts that keep popping up are called "Koga Ryu" instead of a Family name like most Japanese arts have? Is that normal, or suspicious?

Josh Oakley

10-16-2008, 05:04 PM

Frank corrected me. Tanaka wasn't British intelligence as well. He was in London spying on the British. That makes it easier and harder. Would there be a written record of his spying activies? Then again, since there was a Tanaka Kushinige in history that was kempeitai, maybe it's possible.

This is the real problem with trying to credit or discredit Frank's history. Since it's intelligence stuff, it's hard to prove or disprove.

And I know there are people who tried to expose him as a fraud on fronts that are not ninjutsu, but frankly their credibility is dubious as well. B.G. Burkett for example. he tried to say Frank lied about his military history. This is the same guy who contributed to the Swift Boat campaign against John Kerry and the same guy who went after John McCain on his record. He's not the only example.

The ninjutsu thing is different. Almost everything leaves a paper trail, no matter how good someone is about hiding it. I'll find something that shows either this Kushinige Tanake is not the same Kushinige Tanake, or that he was.

jks9199

10-16-2008, 11:36 PM

And slightly off topic, but can someone correct me on somthing?

"Koga" was a region, right? Why is it all the "super secret" arts that keep popping up are called "Koga Ryu" instead of a Family name like most Japanese arts have? Is that normal, or suspicious?
My understanding is that Iga and Koga are mountainous regions of Japan. In the 1700s and 1800s, they were rural and out of the way, so they attracted a lot of "oddball" types avoiding the various governments.

Why does Koga Ryu keep popping up for questionable ninjutsu styles? Because there's some historical documentation of the style -- but enough broken links and questions to leave room for the "mysterious neighbor" or "sneaky hermit" to have taught people. The best accounts and most documentated information that I've read or seen suggests that the Koga Ryu died with Fujita Seiko. It's possible that some family styles have been quietly passed on, and are still taught if you know the right people -- but it's at least equally possible that those sorts of arts died out when someone didn't see a need or place for it in the next generation.

As an aside, traditional Japanese styles acquire their names in various ways. Some are named after families or founders, some after locations where they were taught, and some more colorfully as a guide to their teachings. (And probably other ways I'm not thinking of at the moment.)

Josh Oakley

10-17-2008, 12:14 AM

jks9199

10-17-2008, 01:21 AM

And quite honestly, Fujita Seiko's style could be made up too. That would throw even another wrench into this murky history. The only evidence I've seen for Fujita Seiko being trained by yamabushi are his own words. It would also explain why he never chose to teach it. His own students he taught the other things he knew.
And the moon could actually be made of green cheese, and the 12 men who walked on it are all liars. As are everyone else involved in the moon landings.

Dude, it's simple. You're never going to have 100% positive proof, for lots of reasons. Frank Dux's claims have a lot of holes, which others have pointed out at length and ad nauseum.:deadhorse Nobody's going to satisfy you one way or the other; you're "doing your own research", but apparently have no standard to assess what you find. You don't seem to want to consider what anyone else says, no matter where they're coming from.

I'm stumped on what you're looking for.

ElfTengu

10-17-2008, 04:26 AM

Josh Oakley

10-17-2008, 12:27 PM

Senzo is Japanese for Ancestor.

The name Frank claims is Kushinige.

Josh Oakley

10-17-2008, 12:58 PM

And the moon could actually be made of green cheese, and the 12 men who walked on it are all liars. As are everyone else involved in the moon landings.

Dude, it's simple. You're never going to have 100% positive proof, for lots of reasons. Frank Dux's claims have a lot of holes, which others have pointed out at length and ad nauseum.:deadhorse Nobody's going to satisfy you one way or the other; you're "doing your own research", but apparently have no standard to assess what you find. You don't seem to want to consider what anyone else says, no matter where they're coming from.

I'm stumped on what you're looking for.

What are you talking about? I didn't even know the name Fujita seiko until this website. I DO consider what others say, and then I go research it. I'm still researching. And if Seiko is discredited, it certainly would NOT help Frank's case. You may have researched this, and if you have, Then you know Seiko learned from a band of Yamabushi that originally did not want to teach him, but agreed because he persisted. That kind of falls in with "sneaky hermit", does it not?

I didn't even think of it that way until you posted. How are you going to say I don't take into consideration what anyone else says, when your words helped me talk about something I couldn't put my foot on? Elf Tengu actually has been a big help to my research as well. I've thanked him numerous times.

The only one I've for the most part ignored is cryozombie because he doesn't care, and has said as much.

My standard for history is the same one I had in college: cast nets, gather info, form hypotheses, test those hypotheses, do more research, leave no stone unturned, assess credibility, seek corroboration.

It's not a quick process, and it does a researcher no good to have preconceptions. Because I never went with the main stream oppinion, and I didn't go with Frank's oppinion, I've been able to find things I wouldn't have thought to look for otherwise. But of course I took both sides into consideration or I wouldn't have had a starting point.

Two examples:
1. Anti-Dux Camp: There never was a Kushinige Tanaka.

I found a Kushinige Tanaka.

2. Pro-Dux Camp: Ian Flemming based his character "Tiger Tanaka" on Kushinige Tanaka.

Everything I've found says that character was based on Torao "Tiger" Saito.

But yet I take into consideration what others say on both sides of the fence. That doesn't mean I go along with it. History is not cut and dry, if you're looking for the big picture. If you are looking for the quick answer so you can go about your life that's easy, but it's not history.

But I won't settle for one camp or another because (aside from the fact I haven't been in boy scouts for many years) what people keep giving me keeps bringing up more questions. Since i am curious, and I do not have a life, I plan on exploring it.

But the reason your stumped on what I'm looking for is because there's no one thing I'm looking for. I don't have anything to prove to anybody, and the reason I began researching into this history is pure curiosity, and it's aside from my training. And in the process I'm learning about X-kan, koga, kempeitai, russia, britian, and America.

Honestly, man I just like learning. Frankly I like this history BECAUSE there are so many puzzles. this stuff Will take YEARS to go through! My two big distractions in life are martial arts and history. What am I looking for? anything I can find. What's the harm?

Josh Oakley

10-17-2008, 03:07 PM

A Japanese person in London spying on the British at that time would have stood out like a sore thumb. Sounds a bit dubious, along with the snazzy name Senzo Tanaka.

Nearly as bad as Saija, the supposed ******* grandmaster.

Now Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda, that's a name that an American would never have thought of, or Toshitsugu Takamatsu.

Honestly, you're right, it does sound dubious. But at least according to wikipedia, the Kempeitai did have opperations in great Britain.

And I need to print a retrataction.

The Colonel listed in in White terror was Kunishige not Kushinige. What is interesting, however, is the book references him having contact with the British Army.

Kunishige Tanaka also is pretty well mentioned in Japanese history.

I have to check with Frank and make sure whether it is Kushiniga or kunishige tanaka that trained hi,.

ElfTengu

10-18-2008, 06:24 PM

JadecloudAlchemist

10-18-2008, 08:23 PM

If you are a Japanese ninja master who is going to spill your secrets of ninjutsu, you are going to spill them to your fellow Japanese first and not some gaijin who is going to dress up and make all sorts of strange claims This is very important.

I think it is some what rare to be allowed to learn something being a gaijin(some older Japanese do not like Americans) And even more so to learn some things when you do not speak the language.

I thought the regions of Iga and Koga shared technquies similar but when ever we see Kamae we see a vast difference.

Josh Oakley

10-22-2008, 12:57 AM

Kunishige is the name of a famous swordsmith, as well known as Masamune or Muramasa, a name that a Westerner would come across fairly quickly when researching Japanese martial history. There are also lots of other Kunishiges.

Tanaka is the equivalent of Smith in that it is the most common Japanese surname.

Together they aren't all that convincing.

The other confusing thing is that I believe Kunishige and Tanaka are surnames and most people, even in Japan, tend to have a forename and a surname, although there are exceptions.

Finally, it was Hatsumi Sensei and Takamatsu Sensei who were consulted on the ninja aspects of You Only Live Twice, so why would the character be based on a completely unrelated ninja not known in Japan? And if it was the book character that was supposedly based on Dux's teacher, why did they not go to him for advice when making the movie?

If you are a Japanese ninja master who is going to spill your secrets of ninjutsu, you are going to spill them to your fellow Japanese first and not some gaijin who is going to dress up and make all sorts of strange claims.

If there was Hatsumi and Stephen Hayes and nobody else it would make people question the authenticity of the Bujinkan but there were Japanese shidoshi long before Hayes ever went to Japan and they are still there as shihan today, plus the two who have since founded the Genbukan and Jinenkan.

I can think of no other aspect of Japanese culture or history that has died out in Japan and is now entirely in the hands of an American. It just doesn't happen.

Also, all Japanese arts have a very Japanese flavour, even the Bujinkan, so why do none of the fake schools, Dux included?

For the most part I'll agree. I only have a couple issues:

1. You could be absolutely correct about the words kunishige and tanaka. However, I did find a Kunishige Tanaka who was Kempeitai and did have connection in London.

The name, plus the kempeitai affiliation, plus the London connections all taken as a whole provide too much of a coincidence to ignore. There very wel could have been

Another interesting thing is it puts this tanaka in London around the same time Ian Flemming was involved in the things he eventually wrote about.

Though again, when it comes to physycal description and personality, those all came from Torao "Tiger" Saito. Saito was not a ninja. He was a journalist with whom Flemming shared an affinity. So it makes Frank's case tougher to claim

But again, the name by it self would be unconvincing. The name plus the other factors combined are what make this a tougher case to disprove.

source: White Terror: Cossack Warlords of the Trans-Siberian By Jamie Bisher

I've only read snippets because it's a textbook and it's over $100.

2. As far as Japanese martial arts losing their Japanese flavor, I'd need to more fully understand what you mean by flavor. Because I see it I could reference Kempo, Karate and Jujutsu as having lost a lot of its Japanese flavor not on purpose, but as a natural biproduct of people practicing the art who are not Japanese. Over time it's almost a guarantee that a martial art will take on aspects of the practioners..

But then again that would depend on what we mean by "flavor".