80%, 90%, 100%

[Kirk]

Knowing a belt at 100%, for the purpose of this thread means
that you are told the tech name, you can quickly spout out what
it's a defense against, and do the tech immediately.

My instructor told us that when you test for a belt, you should
know that belt at 80%. Example .. when you test for yellow,
you should know it at 80%. When you test for orange, you
should know orange at 80%, and now know yellow at 90%.
When you test for purple, it's purple - 80%, orange - 90%, and
yellow - 100%. Your thoughts on this?

[Robbo]

In the strictest sense that you put forward....

"Knowing a belt at 100%, for the purpose of this thread means
that you are told the tech name, you can quickly spout out what
it's a defense against, and do the tech immediately. "

I think that it would be wrong to pass a student at a grading that could only do 80% of the mat'l in the way you prescribed above.

Keep in mind that the ability you've expressed is the result of a little practise and memorization. Take it further down the road, would you pass a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on degree black belt because they knew 80% of what they were supposed to know?

I think that the only forgivable situation is in the early ranks. Up to green or blue you are in your first 2 years of training and trying to assimilate all this knowledge and turn it into muscle memory, restructuring your mindset and so on. So it may be forgivable at these rankings. But I would say blue and up you have to have your stuff together.

[GouRonin]

Are a little slow from all the shots to the melon. I might not remember names but I recognize motion.

:rofl:

[Jim M]

All I know is that I was required to know 100% of the material to be awarded the belt. It never occurred to me that it could be otherwise.

Jim

[Kirk]

All I know is that I was required to know 100% of the material to be awarded the belt. It never occurred to me that it could be otherwise.


So when you first tested for yellow, the one doing the testing
called out the technique, and you executed it without the
slightest hesitation?

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Kirk



So when you first tested for yellow, the one doing the testing
called out the technique, and you executed it without the
slightest hesitation? I think your instructor had a good grasp of the student's understanding process. As the student progresses in ranking they tend to recall more and more of the previous material and are able to even create a variation or 2 of the original techniques learned! This happens from the experience of pondering upon what was previously learned. I teach my students to try for 100% in testing for rank! However, i promote them along the way at 85%. Thus, i teach basically the same promotion methods as your instructor. Orange 95%/Yellow 90%; Advanced Orange 95%,Orange 100%, Yellow 95%; Blue 100%, Adv. Orange,100%,Orange 100% and Yellow 100%! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[Nate_Hoopes]

Originally posted by Jim M
All I know is that I was required to know 100% of the material to be awarded the belt. It never occurred to me that it could be otherwise.

Jim


I made a couple slips on my orange belt tests, I missed id day 3 variations, I still passed, Its hard to remeber everything perfectly, The one thing i was told never to mess up is the forms, alwyas have those down, when your doing your forms is when they are really anaylizing you.

[GouRonin]

I admit to that. I need to get the names etc of everything down more. The ART aspect of it more than the MARTIAL aspect.

That comes from boxing I suppose. You move when being thrown at. Names come later.

That's what I have to work on.

[Rainman]

:soapbox:

AK is infinite. I could not place a percentage on the effectiveness of a students knowledge. I allow for 5 to 10 relatively minor mistakes depending on the volume of material they are tested upon. I really look for solid basics and synoptic response times at yellow through purple. Blue up I really start to get into concepts and the like. The criteria with percentages sounds reasonable to me though.

[donald]

Originally posted by Jim M
All I know is that I was required to know 100% of the material to be awarded the belt.
It never occurred to me that it could be otherwise.

Jim Sir,
Are you telling me at yellow/orange you knew, and could execute 100% of the required material at 100%? Ideally every student/instructor wants to do this, but in reality my guess is very few do! I also understand that there are instructor's who do require this without exception, but I would venture to say they don't teach to eat... It is a somewhat sad fact that the crop of students who come in today. For the most part just don't pocess that type of dedication! I think the 80-90-100% requirement expectation is a realistic goal. At least till the student reaches the advanced blue, green belt level. I know if 100% from the get was a pass or fail situation for me. I woulda been one little sad(see failed) wanna be orange belt. As a matter of personal history. I ABSOLUTELY butchered short1. To this day I have no idea what I did, but it was'nt short1! I did ace the written portion though, if I remember correctly!!!! :D

[AvPKenpo]

Gentlemen,
I feel it is important to remember, that knowing the orange list 100% at orange belt level is almost an impossibility. I will be testing for my black this spring, and I know for a fact that I did not know my orange belt 100% when I tested. Yes.... I did know all my material, and I did not miss anything, but I am forever learning from that first list, and I hope to one day soon have it and all the following belts close to 100%.


:soapbox: Remember..... you can learn much more when you listen, but you learn even more when you can teach.... and listen.

Michael
From a Warrior to Scholars.

[Kirk]

Let me remind you, my original topic stated:


Knowing a belt at 100%, for the purpose of this thread
means that you are told the tech name, you can quickly spout out
what it's a defense against, and do the tech immediately.


Everytime my instructor teaches me a technique, I learn
something new. I never meant that knowing a belt level at
100% means that there is nothing of that belt level to learn.
To reiterate, I mean an instant knowledge of the tech, by
immediately being able to execute it, without a moment's
hesitation.

[AvPKenpo]

Everytime my instructor teaches me a technique, I learn
something new. I never meant that knowing a belt level at
100% means that there is nothing of that belt level to learn.
To reiterate, I mean an instant knowledge of the tech, by
immediately being able to execute it, without a moment's
hesitation. [/B][/QUOTE]


I can completely agree with that. I feel that a student should be able to do the material, do it without hesitation, but I do feel at that level (orange) there can me room for mistakes. As the belts progress and the students are more adept, I feel that there should be no mistakes, if not VERY VERY few.

:boing2:

From a Warrior to Scholars

Michael

[Robbo]

I think there is some confusion as to percentages. A student grading should not go to the grading knowing that his instructor will accept 80%. Otherwise why would they try to get 100% of the mat'l down. The average person will always take the path of least resistance. If you teach the student the mat'l, let him know what he is responsible for in the grading then he should prepare himself to know 100% of that mat'l. If nerves or something else come into play during the grading (remember we're really putting these people on a spot during these things) then the grading instructor/board have to be able to determine whether it is due to nerves or due to the fact the student never worked the mat'l in the first place.

[GouRonin]

Water takes the path of least resistence and eventually everything gets worn down by it.

Signed:
Mr. Sm@rt@ss.
:D

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Jim M
All I know is that I was required to know 100% of the material to be awarded the belt. It never occurred to me that it could be otherwise.

Jim

You knew the motions but I doubt anyone who does not teach the material knows it 100%.

We have to look at this in a different manner than percentages. At yellow belt you know the material enough to do it on the test competently, At Orange belt you are better at the material from the previous belt and competent at where you are at. and so on until the gradings become farther apart. But to expect perfection from a 1st degree black is ridiculous. Remember it is at Black Belt that the real learn starts.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
We have to look at this in a different manner than percentages. At yellow belt you know the material enough to do it on the test competently, At Orange belt you are better at the material from the previous belt and competent at where you are at. and so on until the gradings become farther apart. But to expect perfection from a 1st degree black is ridiculous. Remember it is at Black Belt that the real learn starts.

There are days when I wonder if you don't read my mind.
:D

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by GouRonin


There are days when I wonder if you don't read my mind.
:D

It has to be a beer think, the hops allow for minor bouts of ESP

[Jim M]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad


You knew the motions but I doubt anyone who does not teach the material knows it 100%.

We have to look at this in a different manner than percentages. At yellow belt you know the material enough to do it on the test competently, At Orange belt you are better at the material from the previous belt and competent at where you are at. and so on until the gradings become farther apart. But to expect perfection from a 1st degree black is ridiculous. Remember it is at Black Belt that the real learn starts.

Of course a person testing for black belt has a greater understanding of the yellow belt material than the yellow belt does. However, that's true at every level. Hopefully, the 3rd dan has a greater understanding of the yellow belt material (and executes it at a higher level)than the first dan, who in turn has a greater understanding than those of lower rank.

It's turtles all the way down.

My point was mearly and answer to the question (as Kirk pointed out) and that was that to be awarded each belt it seems to me that the person should have an understanding of each technique, what attack it defends against, and be able to demonstrate it and explain it at a level appropriate for the rank. I certainly don't understand techniques as well as my first instructor did, who did not understand them as well as my second instructor (Joe Palanzo), who in turn did not understand them as well as his instructor (Edmund K. Parker).

If we all needed the understanding that Mr Parker had, we'd all still be white belts.

Jim

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Jim M


Of course a person testing for black belt has a greater understanding of the yellow belt material than the yellow belt does. However, that's true at every level. Hopefully, the 3rd dan has a greater understanding of the yellow belt material (and executes it at a higher level)than the first dan, who in turn has a greater understanding than those of lower rank.

It's turtles all the way down.

My point was mearly and answer to the question (as Kirk pointed out) and that was that to be awarded each belt it seems to me that the person should have an understanding of each technique, what attack it defends against, and be able to demonstrate it and explain it at a level appropriate for the rank. I certainly don't understand techniques as well as my first instructor did, who did not understand them as well as my second instructor (Joe Palanzo), who in turn did not understand them as well as his instructor (Edmund K. Parker).

If we all needed the understanding that Mr Parker had, we'd all still be white belts.

Jim

But the material should not be degrading from one generation to the next either. Your analogy sounds like making bad videos. Copying a copy of a copy of a copy......

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad


But the material should not be degrading from one generation to the next either. Your analogy sounds like making bad videos. Copying a copy of a copy of a copy......


I agree Rob everything should be getting better not worse.

Michael

[Goldendragon7]

"Ideally" you should know well what you have been shown and be able to preform it well. Again, this is the ideal. We must be realistic tho and remember that the learning of anything is a "Process", and this takes time and energy and much correcting and adjustment.

Strive for perfection but accept progress. We need to instill the thoughts that the student needs to continually focus on the material at hand and constantly strive for betterment and perfection but realize that advancement is awarded for achievement and skill developed as well as attitude. To be 100 % would really be nearly impossible. Just keep focused and continue to learn an be a student.

:asian:

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
"Ideally" you should know well what you have been shown and be able to preform it well. Again, this is the ideal. We must be realistic tho and remember that the learning of anything is a "Process", and this takes time and energy and much correcting and adjustment.

Strive for perfection but accept progress. We need to instill the thoughts that the student needs to continually focus on the material at hand and constantly strive for betterment and perfection but realize that advancement is awarded for achievement and skill developed as well as attitude. To be 100 % would really be nearly impossible. Just keep focused and continue to learn an be a student.

:asian:

Thank you. Thats what I was thinking, just not writing.

Michael

[Goldendragon7]

What I like to see is a good understanding of the material and be shown that you have seriously have been working on it. To have no clue when a movement is asked of you or to be totally blank shows no practice. Now I realize that you can be under the pressure of the test and not recall stuff that you know...... believe me I know the difference.

If you do your homework ..... it shows. Leave it to the testing board to say "how well you have done the material".... be sure to practice what you have been instructed and are familiar with the procedures and protocol.

I want to see sound Basics, crisp movements, and the demonstration of improvement from where you were at your last promotion or starting point. I want to see a desire to "show" the board what you can do and demonstrate a spirited attitude. We will take care of the rest.


:asian:

[Ronin]

Just try to be the best you can be at any rank. My understanding is that you should do your best at at each rank, however as you grow in kenpo some understandings dont become clear until your later ranks. In this case you then begin to refine your beginning material. You eat the elephant one bite at a time. My honest opinion is to do whats best for you and dont get caught up in what other schools do. Just have a good attitude and work hard. Time will tell if you have. Sometimes sites like this can make one feel overwhelmed and second guess things on how they are taught the art, because they read about so many other opinions and styles. Bottom line is train now and chit chat later. No offense if you spent this time working on kenpo instead of posting messages so often you could be one of the best out there. I hope that doesnt sound rude and again no offense. Many people talk but few actually DO. Sorry If I rambled. like I said one by one the penguins steal my sanity.......

[Klondike93]

GD, have you ever had a student throw a fit in the middle of a test and what did you do.

At the school I teach at, we had a yellow belt get mad in the middle of testing, because she was being hit during sparring (not hard either mind you). She was also screwing up some of the requirements and just finally stormed out and went home.
I wanted her gone as I found that disrespectful to the head instructor. They didn't axe her though and she's still there wining every day about something or some one. What do you do?

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

I am not the GoldenDragon but I would have picked the person up by their belt and carried them like a suitcase to the edge of the floor and pointed them to the nearest exit. That type of behaviour is intolerable. Next time try to weed a person like that out before the testing.

Better yet point her to your competitior let him have the headaches!

[tigerstorm]

Mayeb Im to young to know or too stupid to remember the right answers to these things, but I was always told that you were earning the belt that you wear and you had earned it only when the next was given to you. This has nothing to do with knowing material and or techniques it was the philosophy that you earn something once you have passed by it. Passing by not meaning above it. I guess higher ranks are more obvious to point to. Does the Grandmaster ever make a mistake, well I would hope he does, whats different is that he knows his mistake has not ended the situation only changed it. Also in the case of techniques, the 108 combinations (or whatever number you go by) on the day of promotion to grandmaster rank do you always know them all, and for that matter at the age of eighty with grandmaster rank and alzeihmers, you expect someone to rememebr them all? I dont think I can remember 100 percent of mine, so my rank should be taken away because things are not on call at the instant there called out. I thought thats why I spent time in training to get better, if promotion to my next rank gives me gaurentee of knowledge up to two ranks ago life would be great. I think basically there is to much emphasis on specific criteria and not enough on the ability of the person to function when the criteria does not fit the situation.

[Turner]

I remember something my first instructor told me and it is something that I've continued to teach my students... "There is no such thing as a mistake, there is only a missed opportunity."

I'm not a great teacher and I think that it shows often enough. I've taught Goju-ryu Karate, Hapkido, Tang Soo Do, and an Eclectic form of Kenpo. <I'm an American Kenpo wannabe, but there hasn't been any Kenpo instructors near where I live.> No matter how hard I try, I just can't get the order of techniques right. I know all of the information and can perform the techniques, but if you ask me what technique 198 is I'll just look at you with a blank stare. I think I've managed to keep my students coming back because of that one little philosophy. I require my students learn the curriculum and I learn it right along with them as I teach it, but I don't expect them to perform the technique perfectly or even the way it was written. I can show five students a technique and then send them home to practice... The next class session I will have five students all saying "This is the right way, he showed me to do it this way." They're all right.

Each person moves in a unique way. Some people will tend to close in with a person, while others will tend to move away. Some will move their arms and legs in ways that I can't quite understand, but I can use to make the technique effective. Because of the uniqueness of every individual, all of them will make a "mistake" in the course of doing the technique. But I don't believe in mistakes.. There are only missed opportunities. Show I show them how to fold their backfists into elbows because the moved to close or I show them how to turn their roundhouse kicks into side kicks. One student of mine had the habit of lifting one leg up into a crane stance while doing a spinning backfist and he would feel very self conscious about making that mistake until I showed him that he could be proud of it because if altered just a hair it could be used as a knee spike to the inner thigh... Knowing techniques and a curriculum isn't going to do a whole heck of a lot of good in a fight. Developing a flow of techiques that comes from inside each person is what I focus on. Make the art and artless art, springing forth from the unconscious. This is what the martial arts are all about. While there are a lot of scientific principles, its still an art. I would feel like I'm a failure if my student received his black belt and went off to teach and his students visited my class and looked like a bunch of mini-me's running around. I don't want to create clones, one of me is probably too much.

I require my students to bring a notebook with them to class. I have a print out of all the techniques that I provide to them so that they can learn the ideal... But when I review their notebook I want to see each technique torn apart and made into something brand new... something their own. Its wrong to plagerize someones novel, its wrong to copy someone's masterpiece, and its wrong to attempt to do the same with the martial arts. Use me as a template, use me as a guide, but research, develop, experiment, and renovate what I teach you and become better than I am. Use me as a stepping stone to reach greater heights.

I started teaching adults when I was 20 and all of my students had previous experience. One was a Brown Belt in Tae Kwon Do under one of the <many> Grand Masters. One was a Black Belt in karate. One was a student under a Kung-fu guy who was a GrandMaster with black belts in 15 different styles, one trained with a Tracy Kenpo guy in Italy... The list goes on. All of them seemed to be in awe of me even though I was the youngest person in the class and made statements about how I was better than all of the people they had trained with. A constant theme was 'I'll never be as good as you.' And I smiled and told them that they were right... They'd never be as good, they'd be better. I don't want reverence, I don't want to be considered the best. If you think I'm good... Strive to be better. Don't sit there in awe and say "I'll never be as good as you." Because as long as you have that attitude you never will. Treat all of those legendary martial artists how they probably want to be treated... stepping stones to someplace higher. Take their knowledge and run with it. Spend time getting intimate with it. Practice a technique until it is yours and then go practice it with someone who is still stuck on the I'll never be and you'll see them whine "Thats not how he showed me to do it..." and they'll be right because He showed you something different... He showed you how to become better than he.

Ok, I kinda got off subject, but hey... variation.. thats what kenpo is all about.

[Turner]

My apologies for the previous post. It came off sounding arrogant and was, well, inappropriate. I am not a great martial artist, I am not a great instructor. I am nothing special nor do I ever expect/want to be.

My point was, when it comes to teaching our emphasis should be on making the techniques work for the student and not so concerned with them being 90-100% right. I haven't studied with nor do I know Mr. Parker or Mr. Lee, but in reading their writings, these are the points that stood out to me. If I read Infinate Insights correctly and my understanding of Mr. Tatum is correct, one of the reasons that Kenpo is so effective is that it is based upon natural movements that have been enhanced/modified. When I teach beginners this is my point of emphasis. Due to my years as a martial artist I walk and move like a martial artist (I hope, someone else should be the judge of that) and there are times when I watch a beginner move and just can't understand that movement. In doing the most basic techniques I will see 'mistakes' but recalling what my first instructor, Mr. Parker, Mr. Lee, and Mr. Tatum all said I realize that I can take those mistakes and show them that while they missed the opportunity to do the technique as I do it, they have opened opportunities for other techniques to be employed and so using the way their body moves as a beginner and turning that into their weapon I've altered the curriculum a little bit for them, but have given them something that is a little more natural and more likely to be used in the street than having them perform exactly like me. So when it comes to my analysis of the students progress, I judge the individuals ability to turn a mistake into a new opportunity.

[tigerstorm]

I believe that one of the definitions of Kempo/Kenpo that puts it shortest and best is: Adaptability.
Tigerstorm