Any Sulsa out there?

[Shadow Hunter]

:asian:

Anyone practice the art of the Sulsa? I was hoping to exchange notes and comments with other students.

[arnisador]

Isn't this part of Hwa Rang Do?

[Ender]

I like salsa and chips..:D

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by arnisador
Isn't this part of Hwa Rang Do?

It was part of the Hwarang warriors, but there were some who specialized in the darker aspects. Sulsa learn what a Hwarang warrior would, but they learn more about the art of the sulsa than most students would need to know.

Remember, Hwa Rang Do is a modern name for an ancient art. The person who made it famous only knew of the teacher he was taught by. He was not aware of every teacher or how anyone other than his teacher did things. Yet much of what the west knows about this art comes from him. There is still a lot yet to be discovered because the ancient masters in Korea are not eager to reveal their secrets to people that will go out and make a profit out of it.

[TLH3rdDan]

ok what exactly is Sulsa? can you give a brief description?

[Mithios]

I have heard that sulsa has a lot in common with ninjitsu! If that is true,who knows ??

[arnisador]

Is that mostly from Michael Echanis' writings, including the three-volume HRD series attributed to Joo Bang Lee but that I understand was largely written by Michael Echanis?

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by arnisador
Is that mostly from Michael Echanis' writings, including the three-volume HRD series attributed to Joo Bang Lee but that I understand was largely written by Michael Echanis?

Joo Bang Lee is the best known person to have learned the older forms. But I don't think he ever claimed to have been the only person who learned them. In fact, how would he know if there were other teachers out there?

The sulsa were a lot like the ninja. They were part of the Hwarang tradition, but the normal- looking Hwarang tended to be assighned to espionage work and specialized in behind the lines aspects of the art. A Hwarang learned many things, but it was impossible for him to master all the aspects they studied so there was some specialization that went on.

[Hwarang]

>> There is still a lot yet to be discovered because the ancient masters in Korea are not eager to reveal their secrets to people that will go out and make a profit out of it. <<

Curious to know who you learned from?

>> ok what exactly is Sulsa? can you give a brief description? <<

There are a couple of articles online at http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/articlesbysubject.htm#sulsa

>> Is that mostly from Michael Echanis' writings, including the three-volume HRD series attributed to Joo Bang Lee but that I understand was largely written by Michael Echanis? <<

Joo Bang Lee wrote the books in Korean (1967 - http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/archivepics/manual2.jpg)
The English series follows the original 100% chapter by chapter, but the text is not the same. Joo Bang Lee did not speak that much English that he could write the books in English, so the the American students wrote the text. This means that some chapters are much longer in the English verison, and some much shorter. For instance, most of the advanced breathing/visualization is not in the English books.

[Buffy]

Joo Bang Lee wrote the books in Korean

Can those books be purchased?

[Hwarang]

Hi Buffy,

No the books are not for sale. The book was originally handwritten, with drawings instead of photos, and later stenciled by the Korean Hwarang Do HQ.
The cover was the same on all volumes (7 or 8 I think):
http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/archivepics/manual1.jpg, only only difference was a handwritten number of the volume.

Since it was stenciled, only few copies were ever made, and the people who have one are not selling. And of course you'd have to understand Korean to read it :cool:

[arnisador]

I edited the post to make the URL clickable (a comma had gotten inside the url tags).

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Bob D.]

>> There is still a lot yet to be discovered because the ancient masters in Korea are not eager to reveal their secrets to people that will go out and make a profit out of it. <<

There are no "ancient masters" of Hwa Rang Do in Korea. Joo Bong Lee founded it in the 60's. Based on his knowledge of Hapkido, and what ever else he studied there.


Joo Bang Lee wrote the books in Korean.....

The books where done in the early '70's after JBL came to the U.S. and the logo on the cover you linked was designed in the 60's in Korea.

The original question was about Sulsa. The word is a loose translation of "technician". The idea was to have a sub-group or training geared toward military applications. Weapons, stalking, camo-concealment, espionage, and the like are tought. Some liken it to Ninpo or ninjutsu.

[Hwarang]

>> There are no "ancient masters" of Hwa Rang Do in Korea. <<

I didn't read it as Hwarang Do masters?

>> Joo Bong Lee founded it in the 60's. >>

Sure, 1960.

>> The books where done in the early '70's after JBL came to the U.S. and the logo on the cover you linked was designed in the 60's in Korea. <<

No, the book was written in Korean in 1967, and the English books were done in the 70'ies after Joo Bang Lee came to America.
The link shows the cover of the Korean books. The volume was written by hand inside the " ( )". It is correct though that the logo itself was designed in the 60ies in Korea.

>> The original question was about Sulsa. The word is a loose translation of "technician". <<

Yes, "sul" = technique, "sa" = teacher, master.

[Bob D.]

I did not ask for your verification and don't need it. It's silly that you only referance the WHRD web site when it is written by JBL. Also your apparent need to defend HRD is interesting.

[Hwarang]

:confused:

[dohap]

Dear Hwarang,
the archives at the site (WHRDA) are not showing Korean version of "The ancient....", they are from different book, I got more sites' copies at home, and it's NOT this book for sure.
If You say it was written in Korea, I agree, but where the photos were made? In US, right? So American version is totally new book on the same subject.
Good to hear from You that American students wrote some chapters in the book, I know it for many years, but always heard from DoJooNim that he was the author.
Some more about this: maybe You will tell who is the "dummy" for JBLee on almost every page?

sulsa is very controversial question, I would get some more info from guys not connected with WHRDA. In other sources I coldn't find ANYONE who new sulsa... so I'm close to opinion it was made as a marketing "counter" for ninjutsu, when JBLee came to US.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by dohap
sulsa is very controversial question, I would get some more info from guys not connected with WHRDA. In other sources I coldn't find ANYONE who new sulsa... so I'm close to opinion it was made as a marketing "counter" for ninjutsu, when JBLee came to US.

This was always my suspicion, but I have no actual knowledge of the matter.

[dohap]

of course in every country there were "special" groups. It was the same in Asia, Middle East and Europe. All these groups were trained in what we all call "ninja stuff", so there is nothing wrong in claiming that these kind of groups could exist also in Korea.
Totally different story is how old special groups connects with modern hwarangdo. In my opinion there is no connection.

Seems like the story with grappling. Q:"Do You have grappling in HRD?" A: "Of course, we got very old, traditional grappling coming out from Korean Ssirum." And after that they show you some submission/bjj stuff done in very poor way. The point: of course there is ssirum part, but have nothing in common with ground fighting as we know today.
greetings to all:)

[Hwarang]

so I'm close to opinion it was made as a marketing "counter" for ninjutsu, when JBLee came to US.

Well, as far as I known the Ninja boom was in the 80ies?
Funny enough there are lot's of Sulsa articles from the 70ies (black belt Magazine and Soldier of Fortune) which shows Michael Echanis in full Sulsa gear (I know at least 7 articles from the 70ies). But maybe this was early Hwarang Do advertising just in case Ninjutsu suddenly would take off ? :shrug:

Sample article here:
June 77: http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/BBMagJune77.htm - "Sulsa training in the US-military"

But I certainly do agree that Sulsa was pushed by Hwarang Do during the 80ies. There were lot's of Ninja magazines, so why not show that Hwarang Do has something similar? BTW, there were never Sulsa classes, only seminars. The curriculum did not change and Sulsa is still part of the Hwarang Do curriculum today.

Oh before I forget, anyone claiming that GM Lee did not teach Sulsa, such as stealth, silent walking, sentry removal etc while in Korea certainly knows nothing about Hwarang Do history.



the archives at the site (WHRDA) are not showing Korean version of "The ancient....", they are from different book, I got more sites' copies at home, and it's NOT this book for sure.

Apparently this is very interesting. So let me sum up in great detail what I already said above...

There are 3 versions of the Hwarang Do books

1. The original. GM Lee wrote it in the late 60ies. This version was handwritten, in Korean (duh!) and signed .
Since it was handwritten naturally there were no pictures, only drawings. A few copies of this still exists in Korea, and I'm sure GM Lee also has a copy.

2. The English version. In the early 70ies, after GM Lee went to America, O'hara Publications published the second version. This version follows the original chapter by chapter: History, theory etc and the techniques follows the exact same pattern (meditation and ki-development, stances, falling etc, etc. finishing with pressurepoints and charts).
It is not a translation of the original from the 60ies however. The English is a lot more chatty, and there are many things in the original Korean book not in the English version. For instance the advanced meditation and visualization stuff is not in the English books, most likely because GM Lee's english vere not good enough to explain it.

3. After the English books came out, the Korean Hwarang Do schools took the pictures and put them together with the original handwritten text. This version was stenciled (handprinted) and only sold to people in Hwarang Do and therefore quite rare. This is the version with the cover I posted. Original Korean text from the 60ies and new photos from America.

So who wrote the books, GM Lee or his American students?
GM Lee wrote the books. But the English text were certainly written by his students since GM Lee's English were not good enough to write the text. But the students didn't sit down and said "let's write a book - how about a chapter on Um-yang". The students followed the original as instructed.

Hope this is clear, at least it's pretty clear to me who did what.


maybe You will tell who is the "dummy" for JBLee on almost every page?

Not you I think

[dohap]

also not You to be honest...
so the book is different than this from Korea... only main schema is the same.

about ninjutsu: boom was in 80s, but it was not the beginning of ninja in US.

Every nation got its own "special" squads, some ninja clans came to Japan from outside, so I would really be glad if there were any evidences of sulsa in history. Any other than WHRDA. If You got any, please post it here.

[Hwarang]

Not sure if I should laugh or cry :rolleyes:

[dohap]

none of these, please..
just put some stuff not from whrda.
any old book? manual? writtings? quotes from old books? well-known national tales?

if You do this, nobody anymore will threat Your posts as whrda's, but as historian's.
so neither cry nor laugh.

BTW: Echanis is in Sulsa gear? What makes it "sulsa's"? black boots? black uniform (I thought it should be dark blue...)? black hat? or black glasses? or black cloth? or ninja suit?
And what about the title: "brothers of the ninja,warriors of the night"? Still claim ninja were unknown in US in 70s?

[arnisador]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=286340

Sulsa in Michael DeAlba's Farang Mu Sul (http://www.farangmusul.com/). If I understand correctly, Mr. DeAlba is a HRD instructor who left the organization and started his own system. He may have been asked to leave. There's more on his and the HRD web sites.

[dohap]

yes, but it's still the same source about sulsa.
I try to get sth from older documents, tales et c.

[Hwarang]

>> just put some stuff not from whrda.
any old book? manual? writtings? quotes from old books? well-known national tales?
if You do this, nobody anymore will threat Your posts as whrda's, but as historian's. <<

I think I have posted this in some post already, I have actually seen a reference to Sulsa. I think it was in Koryo Sa, but I'm not sure I never wrote it down. It was very short, and was not a 'ninja-tale', just a short note. I'm not going to go through the sources again though. If that's a problem for you you'll have to try to live with it.

>> BTW: Echanis is in Sulsa gear? What makes it "sulsa's"? <<

The text? For instance
"Specialist Echanis has been given permission by our very pragmatic military to instruct a portion of our vital fighting forces in the ancient ways of hwa rang do. More exactly, he shows them the secrets of the hwarang sul sa, the "magical" technicians of Hwa rang do, whose prime counterparts in the Asian world of long ago were the famed ninja of Japan." etc, etc...
The Sulsa mask is very different from the Ninja mask, you don't know? We don't use the Japanese shoes with the big toe - don't you know?

>> And what about the title: "brothers of the ninja,warriors of the night"? Still claim ninja were unknown in US in 70s? <<

How old are you Dohap? Of course Ninja was known in America in the 70ies.
My point is that if Hwarang Do started teaching Sulsa during the Ninja boom in the 80ies, then you could suspect it was a marketing counter ("people wants Ninja, ok our Shotokan Karate is Ninja" etc). But Hwarang Do was already teaching Sulsa in the military in 1977, so how do you see Sulsa as a "marketing "counter" for ninjutsu"?

[dohap]

the point is when the ninja boom happened... I believe before sulsa, but You can remember better, of course.

I know sulsa wear: do You see any of these in Echanis military uniform?
So he is in whatever "special black" gear... these glasses also don't look like sulsa's.

if You can put here some links to sulsa history I will be really greateful, no joking.

[shesulsa]

... so I would really be glad if there were any evidences of sulsa in history. Any other than WHRDA. If You got any, please post it here.
It is nearly impossible to obtain verifiable, factual history about anything anywhere - especially in Asia where, when state governments changed, historical documents were ordered destroyed (and sometimes rewritten) by new regimes and dynasties. All any of us can rely on is "his story" ( aka history, get it?) and the INTENTIONS of those who bring us stealth and hand-to-hand knowledge, technique and art.

Appreciating history is one thing - honoring it is another. Now...do you have the spirit?

[dohap]

You are young and obviously don't remember the facts connected with creating so-called "sulsa".
Don't mix spirit with "creative history".
It was enough to say "I created this whole art" instead of writing BS.

[dosandojang]

I am with Master Bob D. on this one.

[dohap]

exactly.

[shesulsa]

You are young and obviously don't remember the facts connected with creating so-called "sulsa".
Don't mix spirit with "creative history".
It was enough to say "I created this whole art" instead of writing BS.
My point was to encourage people who love HRD but are not affiliated with WHRDA to fight on and continue. And I'm not as young as you think, thanks all the same.

[sojobow]

My point was to encourage people who love HRD but are not affiliated with WHRDA to fight on and continue. And I'm not as young as you think, thanks all the same.
Looking into the relationship between China, Korea and Japan between 300b.c. and 1400 a.d.. Trying to make sense of the early development of Sulsa, Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu, chinese Ninjutsu, Sun Tsu etc. Do you think Sulsa/Ninjutsu etc came about in these countries/regions due to imagration or development unique to each region with no relationship to either?

Also, what / where is the better sources of Sulsa's early history on the WWW/web. Thanks.

Basic ongoing discussion here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16833

Thanx.