Robert Smith's "Hate List"

[Shadow Hunter]

:asian:

Many of you probably have read Robert Smith's book "Martial Musings." I just read it a while ago but it is halfway across the world at the present time.

Robert Smith takes a lot of time to talk trash about other instructors in Taiji, but he never mentions their names. I think it interesting to see that many people that are well known in the Taiji field are not mentioned by name at all in the book. Makes you wonder, eh?

Can anyone place some names to the descriptions he vents about in his book? I would like hearing some of the dirt of the American Taiji scene. I may start practicing here, instead of travelling to the orient. And it may be nice knowing what teachers are best avoided.

[Taiji fan]

who is Robert Smith?

[arnisador]

He's a well-known author on the CMA.

[Taiji fan]

so well known I hve never heard of him ;) can you give me any info on what he has written?:)

[arnisador]

See the martial arts books here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Smith%2C%20Robert%20W.

(Skip the ones on medicine, finance, etc.)

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
:asian:
Can anyone place some names to the descriptions he vents about in his book? I would like hearing some of the dirt of the American Taiji scene. I may start practicing here, instead of travelling to the orient. And it may be nice knowing what teachers are best avoided.
I'm pretty sure the Chinese chemist from Ohio refers to Dr. Fred M.A. Wu (deceased). If memory serves, "Mr. X" is B.K. Frantzis. This gives me an excuse to reread Martial Musings! Thanks! :asian:

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[Shadow Hunter]

So who is the Irish guy he says did the trick with pushing hands?

And why don't we hear certain names mentioned in his book? I am talking about Doc Fai Wong, Daniel Lee, the guys at YMAA, etc. He talks a lot about good folks by name, and a lot of bad people without giving their names. So when he does not talk abotu someone, I get suspicious.

[Phil Elmore]

So he won't get sued, of course.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
So he won't get sued, of course.

But it's also just more professional to slight the underperformers by omission rather than by identification.

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by arnisador
But it's also just more professional to slight the underperformers by omission rather than by identification.

I can understand that. And I know that even Robert Smith can't know all the taiji people in American and Europe.

But before I buy stuff from Yang Jing Ming or Bif Painter I would like to know if they are some of the frauds he talks about, one of the guys he just does not consider on the same level as Ben Lo or if he does not know of them at all.

As an aside, I heard a few weeks ago that the guy he talks about as being born in 1933 and claiming to be a WWII Ghurka is Dr Gyi.

I will be living in Houston after the new year for a while. I kind of want to know who the Hsing-I teacher he talks about in his book is. I can guess, but I would not want to jump to conclusions.

[7starmantis]

Excuse my ignorance, but what makes Robert Smith the authority on Taiji instructors? Why does his opinion of an instructor hold so much weight?

7sm

[tshadowchaser]

Possibly because he wasstudying Tai chi befor most americans even knew it exsisted

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
Possibly because he wasstudying Tai chi befor most americans even knew it exsisted

So its just simply his years of experience that offer him the authoritive voice. Interesting, I'll have to look up some info on him.
7sm

[Taiji fan]

Possibly because he wasstudying Tai chi befor most americans even knew it exsisted hmmmmmm we have some of 'those' in the UK too. :rolleyes: self proclaimed authorities, just cos they have been around for a while.

[Guro Harold]

I think that he has also studied Hsing-I and Bagua long before it was popular over here as well.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

He also wrote (tongue in cheek) as John F. Gilby. Some may be familiar with one and not the other.
R.W. Smith also studied with Hong Yixiang (mentioned in another thread), T.T. Liang, Yuan Dao, and Wang Shujin

Palusut- Last I heard, he was living in one of the Carolinas. Did you ever run into him? Just wondering how he's doing. ( Yeah, I realize "the Carolinas" covers a lot of territory, but MA people seem to run into each other somehow).

[Guro Harold]

Hi Randy,

North or South Carolina? If he is living in North Carolina, he is keeping a low profile!!!

Best regards,

Palusut

[Randy Strausbaugh]

From "Martial Musings", he seems to indicate that he lives (or lived) in or near Hendersonville, North Carolina.

[Guro Harold]

Okay, he lives in the mountains of NC.

[Dan Anderson]

The last I heard he was living in Bethesda, Maryland.
Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Brian Jones]

If you have ever met Dr. Gyi, its obvious that this is who Robert Smith is referring to. Now I have met Dr. Gyi several times and heard the stories, but I was surprised at Smith's vehemence toward Doc. And yes if you ever met Dr. Wu it sounds like Smith is talking about him as well. Hard to know where to go with this. Both Robert Smith and Dr. Gyi are well respected in the arts.

Brian Jones

[rmcrobertson]

I like the couple-three of Smith's books that I've read, maybe because I tend to agree with many of his basic ideas about cutting out the swaggering, don't think you're all that tough, etc.

It strikes me that saying nice things about people that you name, and criticizing people while leaving out their names, is a fairly-good way to proceed. That way, you can more or less have your good vibes and criticism too...

The other thing is that his criticisms seem to be to be a lot better grounded than the usual criticisms, which too often boil down to, "well, they don't do what I do," or, "Well, that's old-fashioned," or, "Well, that's not realistic because they didn't take do this in an airliner into account," or, "Well, this art is no good because it takes too long and that's wrong because quick results are essential."

He also tends to be very hard-headed about what traditionalists in China and Taiwan can and cannot really do, which is nice, I think...

[OULobo]

As an aside, I heard a few weeks ago that the guy he talks about as being born in 1933 and claiming to be a WWII Ghurka is Dr Gyi.


I haven't read and don't own the book, but what does he say about Dr. Gyi?

[Brian Jones]

Basically in Martial Musings he calls Dr. Gyi a charlatan and a sham. That he basiclaly has lied about all of his exploits. In the chapter Wierd and Wild in the section "Our Shaw Desmond" Smith refers to a "small Asian who claims to be a boxing champ and a Gurkha in WWII (but Smith says he is too young to have fought in WWII). He says this person claims to have won a sliver medal in boxing in Melbourne, to have knocked out Buster Douglas (who lives in Columbus, Oh where many of Dr. Gyi's students live). Its obviusly Dr. Gyi. Smith also calls him perhaps a first or second dan in boxing, but a 10th dan in telling tales. By the way this is also the chapter where Smith debunks bruce Lee and says Seagal "claims" to have studied Aikido.
Hope this helps.

Brian Jones

[OULobo]

Basically in Martial Musings he calls Dr. Gyi a charlatan and a sham. That he basiclaly has lied about all of his exploits. In the chapter Wierd and Wild in the section "Our Shaw Desmond" Smith refers to a "small Asian who claims to be a boxing champ and a Gurkha in WWII (but Smith says he is too young to have fought in WWII). He says this person claims to have won a sliver medal in boxing in Melbourne, to have knocked out Buster Douglas (who lives in Columbus, Oh where many of Dr. Gyi's students live). Its obviusly Dr. Gyi. Smith also calls him perhaps a first or second dan in boxing, but a 10th dan in telling tales. By the way this is also the chapter where Smith debunks bruce Lee and says Seagal "claims" to have studied Aikido.
Hope this helps.

Brian Jones

Well, I guess anyone who is smart enough to know that Bruce Lee is bunk and Seagal never studied Aikido must know what he is talking about. I love these "phony hunters", they only research enough to find a flaw, they never finish up to find if the flaw is valid or not, but that is another thread I'm sure.

[Brian Jones]

You can also find somethings against Dr. Gyi on a web site about phony veterans. I think its Phonyveterans.com. But I can't swear to that. It's hard to know what to do with some of this stuff. All I know is that Dr. Gyi has been gracious to me when I have met him, my instructor speaks very high of him and he gives tries to do a lot for Veteran organizations.

Brian Jones

[OULobo]

You can also find somethings against Dr. Gyi on a web site about phony veterans. I think its Phonyveterans.com. But I can't swear to that. It's hard to know what to do with some of this stuff. All I know is that Dr. Gyi has been gracious to me when I have met him, my instructor speaks very high of him and he gives tries to do a lot for Veteran organizations.

Brian Jones

Phoney veterans is a group that has a good motivation, but bad practice. They have the tendancy to attack mad dog fashion without fully exploring the possible explanations. I have my own theories and explanations about the claims made by Fat Mike (RIP) and the rest of the phoey vets people, and I will gladly vent them in IMs. Doc doesn't seem to care what they say, I have never asked him as I think it would be a sign of disrespect, and my guess is that he doesn't think he owes them anything, least of all an explanation, I for one agree. Even if you decline to believe his history, he still has made considerable contributions to the cause of veterans around the world and hie martial arts knowledge is vast.

[Brian Jones]

I agree. Doc doesn't really owe anybody an explanation based on an accusation. And yes I think the same thing, it would be disrespectful to ask him. I was sent a letter by one of my instuctor's Pete Galupo that Dr. Gyi will be teaching a seminar on the internal arts May 8th in New Albany.

Brian Jones <><

[Randy Strausbaugh]

I met Dr. Gyi at Bando Camp back in '77 (yeah, I'm old...) and was very impressed both by him and by the instructors under him. In my mind, his proven ability far overshines any shadows others may place on his background.

In defense of Mr. Smith, however, I believe that he mostly took issue with claims made by unnamed students of Doc's. I guess I'll have to go re-read Martial Musings just to be sure. :ultracool

[Guro_Jeff]

Books can be a source of information and opinion. I always feel that it is best for the student to make up his or her own mind with personal contact and experience.

I always feel there is too much 'authority' granted to someone merely because they write or publish something. Some of the BEST tai chi people i've ever seen, can bounce people off walls and such, but are NOT well-known because they elect to stay low-profile.

Guro Jeff

[Kenpodoc]

Personally I liked "Martial Musings." It was highly idiosyncratic and highly opinionated description of a life in martial arts. He kept it highly personal and it offers much more than any politically correct discussion could ever hope to provide. It is interesting to try to figure out who he is talking about but not terribly important. The book is not really about characters but about the study of martial arts in general.

Jeff

[Patrick Skerry]

Then you really must read: THE HISTORY OF JON BLUMING: From Street Punk to 10th Dan by Jon Bluming, if you want to read some highly opinionated descriptions of martial arts life.




Personally I liked "Martial Musings." It was highly idiosyncratic and highly opinionated description of a life in martial arts. He kept it highly personal and it offers much more than any politically correct discussion could ever hope to provide. It is interesting to try to figure out who he is talking about but not terribly important. The book is not really about characters but about the study of martial arts in general.

Jeff

[Kenpodoc]

Then you really must read: THE HISTORY OF JON BLUMING: From Street Punk to 10th Dan by Jon Bluming, if you want to read some highly opinionated descriptions of martial arts life.
Thanks,

Jeff

[M.C. Busman]

Basically in Martial Musings he calls Dr. Gyi a charlatan and a sham. That he basiclaly has lied about all of his exploits. In the chapter Wierd and Wild in the section "Our Shaw Desmond" Smith refers to a "small Asian who claims to be a boxing champ and a Gurkha in WWII (but Smith says he is too young to have fought in WWII). He says this person claims to have won a sliver medal in boxing in Melbourne, to have knocked out Buster Douglas (who lives in Columbus, Oh where many of Dr. Gyi's students live). Its obviusly Dr. Gyi. Smith also calls him perhaps a first or second dan in boxing, but a 10th dan in telling tales. By the way this is also the chapter where Smith debunks bruce Lee and says Seagal "claims" to have studied Aikido.
Hope this helps.Here are two links to more information on this (the top one has more recent info):

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies117.htm

http://www.phonyveterans.com/Gyi.html

People are free to draw their own conclusions regarding this.


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman

[OULobo]

Here are two links to more information on this (the top one has more recent info):

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies117.htm

http://www.phonyveterans.com/Gyi.html

People are free to draw their own conclusions regarding this.


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman

Neither of those sites spend half the time truely investigating as they do throwing around assumptions and making accusations. They hound their "phonies" mercilessly and then if they find they are wrong, they just remove the exonerated from their lists and rarely apologize. They tarnish what they seek to protect.

[M.C. Busman]

Neither of those sites spend half the time truely investigating as they do throwing around assumptions and making accusations. They hound their "phonies" mercilessly and then if they find they are wrong, they just remove the exonerated from their lists and rarely apologize. They tarnish what they seek to protect.

While the military-phony-hunter websites aren't perfect, they appear to serve more good than harm. Many of the "outed" also seem to be guys who served, and are claiming awards they did not receive.

In the case of Gyi, so many inconsistencies in his tales are presented...and so much of his supposed military experience is blown away as fantasy that it is hard to know where to begin. People checked Gyi's military, academic and police records, and found him to be wanting with regard to his fantastic claims. Greatly so. This wasn't a man "just" lying about one award or one war...like some other "masters" who have been outed recently, Gyi didn't know when to stop. Olympic Medalist...no. POW...no. WWII, Korean War, Vietnam, Gulf War...no. Any known combat action? No. Odd for a man who claimes to have spanned 40-odd years.

Count me among those who will probably never understand what drives any man to build himself into a paper tiger. Now people wonder...who, really, is Maung Gyi? And how have his actions changed the future of Bando? Should he come clean...or is it o.k. for him to pretend that nothing has happened after all these years of war stories? Will Bando folks have to carry this burden forever? I hope not. Maung Gyi has it in his power to come clean and fix this--and save the American Bando Association his pain. It is time to tell the Truth.

On Robert Smith--I have his book next to Bluming's ;)


Take Care,

M.C. Busman

[OULobo]

While the military-phony-hunter websites aren't perfect, they appear to serve more good than harm. Many of the "outed" also seem to be guys who served, and are claiming awards they did not receive.

In the case of Gyi, so many inconsistencies in his tales are presented...and so much of his supposed military experience is blown away as fantasy that it is hard to know where to begin. People checked Gyi's military, academic and police records, and found him to be wanting with regard to his fantastic claims. Greatly so. This wasn't a man "just" lying about one award or one war...like some other "masters" who have been outed recently, Gyi didn't know when to stop. Olympic Medalist...no. POW...no. WWII, Korean War, Vietnam, Gulf War...no. Any known combat action? No. Odd for a man who claimes to have spanned 40-odd years.

Most of this is unverified hearsay. I personally checked Dr. Gyi's academic record and found that he did have a Doctorate of Communications and valid teaching credentials from Ohio University where I attended. None of the so called "offical" record DOBs can be verified because they are all based on an assumed DOB from a village in Burma where they don't give out certificates or official verification when babies are born. I even have a quote from a published interview of a verified Ghurka where he describes how when signing into the British Ghurka Youth Corps during the war they were assigned the day of enlistment as thier official date of birth for British records. That could be up to 16 years after their real date of birth. I have seen pictures and documentation of his non-combat actions in the Gulf War, as a relief worker. Consequently, these are all things I found out without directly investigating Doc. I never bothered to ask him because it doesn't matter to me, and I don't believe he has the desire or necessity to explain it.


Count me among those who will probably never understand what drives any man to build himself into a paper tiger. Now people wonder...who, really, is Maung Gyi? And how have his actions changed the future of Bando? Should he come clean...or is it o.k. for him to pretend that nothing has happened after all these years of war stories? Will Bando folks have to carry this burden forever? I hope not. Maung Gyi has it in his power to come clean and fix this--and save the American Bando Association his pain. It is time to tell the Truth.

On Robert Smith--I have his book next to Bluming's ;)


Take Care,

M.C. Busman

The truth is that the people in the ABA trust in Dr. Gyi's abilities and knowledge and, like Doc himself, don't feel the need or desire to proove anything to anyone, other than themselves. The opinions of the dogs that yip matter least to who they are yipping at. Which truth do you want the real truth or the one that will satisfy you? My guess is that he doesn't care to give you either.

[Buddy]

While I thank Mr. Smith for introducing the west to the internal Chinese martial arts, his latest book is crap. In retrospect he never learned anything about taiji, xingyi, or bagua and his books on those arts reveal that. I suspect he was a fairly good judo player, but I have no experience in that art so my opinion is worthless there. That he considered Cheng Manching the most talented boxer he met is telling. He stated that my grand teacher gave him lineage in Yin Fu style baguazhang. Our lineage comes from the Cheng Tinghua branch and not Yin. While he had no experience in Gaoshi baguazhang, he had the temerity to doubt that Zhang Zhunfeng (my great grand teacher) learned from Gao or Li Cunyi (Masters and Methods). While a colorful read, it is unfortunate that he had to waste his final book on trashing others.

Buddy

[TaiChiTJ]

I think most of us who first became aware of Tai Chi Chuan in the late 1960's and early 70's know of Robert Smith from his first book, "Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods". In it he describes his travels throughout Taiwan, (I think) in the 1950's, and we get a chapter per significant teacher, such as Cheng Man Ching and others. He writes very well and shows you the person in an up close, personal way. I still have my old battered hardboud copy and glance at it now and then. I have seen "Martial Musings", at a friends house but have not read it.