BLACK Belt

[cali_tkdbruin]

This is just for taekwondoists...
I recently spent time with my nephew who is a 2nd Dan Kukkiwon BLACK, and who was on the all US Army Taekwondo Team. After speaking to him, it really made me feel that my 1st Dan Kukkiwon Black is worthless compared to his rank and stature.

It took my nephew 5+ years to earn his first Dan BLACK, but, I was able to pick mine up in 3 years. It seems that he is so much more advanced as a TKD artist and as a martial artist in general than I am.

It all comes down to the fact that I earned my BLACK though a commercial TKD dojang. I've trained under a 7th Dan Kukkiwon BLACK belt who was born and grew up in Korea. But his dojang is here in the States, so he has had to water down his curriculum.
I know he's the best of the best, but, when I see who he promotes to BLACK, which includes some people who are NOT deserving, then I have come to question my own 1st DAN rank.
It seems after comparing my training, although it was difficult, doesn't match with other MAs.

It makes me think that Americanized dojangs do a diservice to my beloved Korean martial art of Taekwondo. What's your take?

[RCastillo]

In some respects, you're right. There are a list of many as to why it's changed, so I won't bore you with that.

Keep in mind the differences of how the both of you were trained but, you're still a BB, no matter what. However, keep strengthening your TKD as you see fit, as we can always do more.:asian:

[MountainSage]

I don't believe it matter in what forum you recieve your training, it's more about the teacher. If your teacher is a detail demon then you get some details that are left out by sparring schools. My teacher is a former engineer and vietnam vet, as a result, we get a lot of training in the physics of the MA and the reality of the training we are doing. I believe that a teacher who has had a "real" life, outside the MA is a better teacher than those who spend their live emersed in the MA. I will get my BB in about 2 years and have trained 2 1/2 years. I need a lot more than 2 years to get better.


Mountain Sage

[A.R.K.]

cali_tkdbruin,

I understand your concern on this matter. But remember as I've stated numerous times, rank is subjective and relative. You just can't compare yourself to others, and they can't compare themselves to you. There is no 'starting point' or 'base line' to go by really. Quite obviously you pasted your instructor's requirements and he promoted you to where he felt you should be.

Your nephew sounds like he has had the benefit of tremendous pratical experience which is reflected in his ability. This makes a difference, but doesn't take away from your ability even if it is not the equal. You are currently the best YOU can be and that is what matters.

You mentioned...


I know he's the best of the best, but, when I see who he promotes to BLACK, which includes some people who are NOT deserving, then I have come to question my own 1st DAN rank.

Is this because they truly aren't qualified and he is simply passing them through because of $$? Or is it that their ability is not the equal of yours? If the first then you have a legitimate question. If the second, if they are performing at their personal best and passing the requirements then everything sounds like it has been earned.

As a suggestion, tell your instructor that you wish not to be promoted until you feel you have earned it. Or discuss your concern and ask him to work with you on increasing your current level of skill. He should feel honored to do so....if he cares more about you than your $$.

Just some thoughts, but as long as you have given your best, feel confident in what you have accomplished.

:asian:

[tkdcanada]

I may be way off here but a couple of things came to mind. Could it be that your nephew, (I don't know his age or yours but it's a thought) was held back and slowed down because of his young age (if in fact he is/was quite young)? Also, because of that younger age, it may be possible that he was able to perfect on techniques that you may have trouble with and not quite be able to master completely although your instructor was still convinced that you mastered them to the best of your abilities (even though they may not match the abilities of someone else - we all have very unique abilities and limitations). Many times younger people can learn to manipulate their bodies much more efficiently, so it may not be that your nephew got better training than you, just that he was able to do certain things better due to his own natural abilities. One last point, maybe the idea that he seems so much more advanced in TKD than you is due to your perception. We are always harder on ourselves and often don't give ourselves the credit that others easily give us. Just a few things to think about.

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by RCastillo
In some respects, you're right. There are a list of many as to why it's changed, so I won't bore you with that.

Keep in mind the differences of how the both of you were trained but, you're still a BB, no matter what. However, keep strengthening your TKD as you see fit, as we can always do more.:asian:

Thanks for the support Mr. C.
I'll just keep, keepin' on in the MAs.. :asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
cali_tkdbruin,

Is this because they truly aren't qualified and he is simply passing them through because of $$? Or is it that their ability is not the equal of yours?

As a suggestion, tell your instructor that you wish not to be promoted until you feel you have earned it. Or discuss your concern and ask him to work with you on increasing your current level of skill. He should feel honored to do so....if he cares more about you than your $$.


A.R.K. ,
As much as I hate to admit it, some of the BB promotions at my dojang do come down to the almightly dollar. IMHO the BB testing fee is very high at my dojang, but that money helps keep the dojang afloat.

I had the opportunity to help teach some classes in which some newly promoted BLACK belts participated, I'm referring to kids less than 12 who are BBs, and it really sours me on my school when I see these kids train. They screw around, and waste valuable training time. If I were the SBN I would never promote youngsters unless I was very, very certain that they were mature enough to be a BLACK belt, and I knew that they would comport themselves as the proper role models that they need to be. These BB kids at my dojang are a lost cause, and it disgusts me. :mad:

I hate when some people refer to TKD as a watered down MA because when it's taught correctly it's really not a weak art. It can be effective, but, when your school concerns itself more with the $$$ as opposed to providing quality instruction and promoting only those most deserving, then we just feed the anti-TKD naysayers.

Just my thoughts, and I will take your advice to keep honing my skills, thanks... :asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by tkdcanada
I may be way off here but a couple of things came to mind. Could it be that your nephew, (I don't know his age or yours but it's a thought) was held back and slowed down because of his young age (if in fact he is/was quite young)? Also, because of that younger age, it may be possible that he was able to perfect on techniques that you may have trouble with and not quite be able to master completely although your instructor was still convinced that you mastered them to the best of your abilities (even though they may not match the abilities of someone else - we all have very unique abilities and limitations). Many times younger people can learn to manipulate their bodies much more efficiently, so it may not be that your nephew got better training than you, just that he was able to do certain things better due to his own natural abilities. One last point, maybe the idea that he seems so much more advanced in TKD than you is due to your perception. We are always harder on ourselves and often don't give ourselves the credit that others easily give us. Just a few things to think about.

My nephew is 24, he started in the MAs when he was 6. He began with Karate, and when he was 9 he switched over to TKD. He earned his 1st dan at about 16. He's now a 2nd dan. So, he's been a TKDist for 15 years. The last couple of years he was a member of the All US Army Taekwondo team.

Tonight I invited him to come and train with us at our dojang. I, along with most of the rest of the students at our school were so damn impressed with this kid's skills. Now I know why he was on the all army TKD team! He's so friggin' quick, so strong, he has blinding speed, it was awesome watching him train. :eek:

He is eons advanced in terms of his TKD skills compared to the rest of the students at my dojang. He's on the elite level, while we are just scrubs.

I agree with your point that maybe we are harder on ourselves when we do self-evaluations, but, comparing my commerical TKD training and background to my nephew's is just ludicrous. In my mind, perhaps biased as it is, he's what a TKD artist should always represent. Tonight was the first time I have seen him train in about 8 years and I was so extremely impressed. It was just awesome... :asian:

[tkdcanada]

I can just imagine how good he is, especially if he's been training since the age of six years old! He's lucky to have had such good training!

[MountainSage]

Cali,
It appears to me what you see with your nephew is the effects of having the opportunity to train a lot and have a high repetition rate on individual skills combine with natural talent. It doesn't hurt that he's in a situation were all members are working for the same goal and are highly motivated. I'll bet he's one of those individuals that good at any athletics he tries. As far as promotion in TKD vs. skill level, I won't even go there on this forum because theres not enough memory space for my ranting. I'll leave it at that we, in the US, are getting short changed in the art of TKD.

Mountain Sage

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Cali,
.
.
.
we, in the US, are getting short changed in the art of TKD.

Mountain Sage

Agreed! And that's the whole point of my post... :asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
Agreed! And that's the whole point of my post... :asian:

It's probably wrong for me to do this but I implement some Kenpo into the TKD, as far as the "Self Defense" is concerned because much of it is just blocking/punching/kicking, and has little to offer.

On the other hand, I've used my kicking foundation from TKD, within Kenpo, because, that's what I've been taught, and it's a strong base to work from.

In the katas, I also implement "Sine Wave", because the movements seen from others are not crisp, flat footed, no body torque. Makes for good floor walking exercises as well.:asian:

Guess I'm gonna get jumped on now.:anic:

[celtic bhoy]

I believe that the colour of your belt only signifies what you know and not how good you are.

Someone maybe more physically gifted than yourself, but if you know the syllabus then you have as much right to a black belt as the next man.

[tkdcanada]

That was pretty much what I was getting at. :)

[MountainSage]

Castillo,
No flame, you have shown how you are approaching the issue of the shortcomings of modern TKD. You feel Kempo will fill the void in the training while I see Shuai Chiao is the way to fill the gap. We as TKDers have a common problem, yet there are a diverse amount of solutions, each tailored to individual needs. If you get flame for your response, then that person doesn't really understand the problem.

Mountain Sage

[DAC..florida]

I have been in TKD since I was 7 years old, I am now 28 you do the math. I am currently ranked at 3rd degree BB, not to be modest but I see some who are ranked higher and dont measure up to me or my level of training, I dont let that bother me or disapoint me in any way, your instructor has placed you where you are because of his standards, not all teachers or dojangs are the same.
If you see someone who is ranked higher and not at your level be thankful that your teacher was strict. If you see someone who is either the same rank or higher and you feel that they are better than you train harder and strive to be in thier shoes.
:asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

For me, it's it was awesome watching somebody of that stature practicing our art of TKD. To even see someone who's on the elite level do any of the martial arts in general is just incredible. But to see somebody practice taekwondo like that is just so,so impressive. :asian:

Straight up, I started beliveing the hype that Taekwondo was a punk ass art. For the record, I'm a 1st dan Kukkiwon BLACK. Anyway, after watching my little nephew, I know now that TKD can be a very mean, effective martial art.

It's just unbelieveable the skills that this kid, my nephew has!!! But, then again, I guess that's why he was chosen to be on the all US-Army Taekwondo team.

To me, he's awesome, just friggin' awesome. As I previously said, I started questioning my beloved TKD art, I really started thinking that my art was worthless, but after seeing my Lil' nephew parctice our art, now I know that we TKDists are capable, and can rank up there among with the rest of the MAs when we're trained correctly... :mst: :ultracool

[A.R.K.]

I understand where your coming from. I often thought in years past that TKD was a joke. And unfortunately, in part it truly is. It has been commercialized, watered down and butchered in the interest of the almighty $. But any discipline can be. TKD can be just as effective as any other discipline and a TKD practitioner that has trained in what I refer to as 'real' TKD have no reason to hang their heads low.

So keep your head high! ;)

:asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
I understand where your coming from. I often thought in years past that TKD was a joke. And unfortunately, in part it truly is. It has been commercialized, watered down and butchered in the interest of the almighty $. But any discipline can be. TKD can be just as effective as any other discipline and a TKD practitioner that has trained in what I refer to as 'real' TKD have no reason to hang their heads low.

So keep your head high! ;)

:asian:

Yes sir! you hit the nail right on the head. Usually when the art becomes too commercialized then its practitioners and the entire art for that matter suffers. When other non-TKD artists see that, they begin believing that Taekwondo is a joke.

TKD really can be an awesome art if we would stay away from the commercialization and the draw of the almighty dollar. Unfortunately, for dojangs here in the States to survive, you almost have to give into the lure of the $$$.

If a TKD practitioner is taught the art the way it should be taught, which is hard core, no frills combat style then TKD artists can rank right up there with any style martial artist...:asian:

[MountainSage]

Not meaning to be disrespectful of you guy, but I think we have hashed and rehashed the problem with modern TKD. Now how about getting some solutuions figured. This is one of those doctor heal they self situation. My first suggestion to solve the problem is remove TKD from the Olympics; second, only US citizen can hold any office in US TKD organizations, citizens by birth or naturalization; thirdly, create a promotion organization similar to Kikkiwon for the USA. There are few individuals in the USA that have any need to be recognized on the international level for other than ego.

Mountain Sage

[MountainSage]

Sorry you Canadian TKDers, I forgot to address you folks. I guess I don't see Canada as being International, but it is. Canadian and American would go to their countries respective organizations for certification and requirements for that country.

Mountian Sage

[A.R.K.]

My first suggestion to solve the problem is remove TKD from the Olympics; second, only US citizen can hold any office in US TKD organizations, citizens by birth or naturalization; thirdly, create a promotion organization similar to Kikkiwon for the USA. There are few individuals in the USA that have any need to be recognized on the international level for other than ego.

You've got some good ideas here that perhaps we can discuss and expand on. First off, I have a Dan in TKD [Han Moo Kwan as well as one in Hapkido [HoShinDo]. Neither are registered with the Kukkiwon, although they could be as my instructor is a registered Kukkiwon Master. And let me stop and say that no disrespect is intended towards those that are Kukkiwon certified. But after long consideration I came to the conclusion...why do I need their approval/recognition?

I'm not going to teach TKD or Hapkido in and of itself. I'm not interested in progressing up their ladder. And I don't want to donate my $ to Korea :D for another piece of paper that says the same thing as the one my instructor presented me with. That is merely my humble opinion on this, and again no disrespect meant towards the Kukkiwon or it's members.

And I think part of the problem is what has already been touched on...the need for a school to generate $$$ to be able to remain open. Could I humbly suggest that the best training might be offered in an environment that does not require the generation of $? It would seem that in years past in places such as Okinawa that karate was passed down through families or selected groups and that what was taught was darn fine. Now that has problems of it's own of course but the concept is sound. A small group meeting wherever - church, park, beach, garage, back yard etc and simply training .

I'm all for kids learning early....but not in a day care setting. That is a business not a passion. A way to dump off the kids instead of parenting. Sorry for the soap box approach ;) It just seems that the discipline suffers when the concern is on pretty colored belts and big test fees and sport competitions and this and that etc etc.

Anyway I'd better stop before I really get on a roll. :rofl: Take care.

:asian:

[Disco]

Sport TKD is a seperate art. To excell you have to be very athletic, boardering on almost a gymnist. Most of us are not blessed with that kind of talent or body. Understand, these people are the exception. That's why they can attain such lofted status, such as the Army team. Remember, TKD is an Olympic SPORT....

In a "commerical" school, you may not undergo the level of training as that of the elite above, but that is due to the fact that very very few can attain that level. If someone should have that ability, they will surely be asked to step up to an Olympic style training camp. But the TKD training that someone receives in the normal commerical school (if it's not a total MacDojo), is more than adequate. It's up to the individual to push him/her self to attain a level of greater proficiency. I like to use this annology. College graduation - Mr. A has a 4.0 in engineering. Mr.B has a 2.8 in same. When it comes to practical application, many times it's Mr. B who excells. Same can hold true for the martial arts. We have fostered the concept within the martial arts world, that only focuses on staged combat - sport, K1, etc. We have lost site of what real training is there for, self protection. You don't have to be an Olympic medalist or caged fighter to overcome the bad guy.

Now for those that feel that what/how they are training is somewhat lacking, I would suggest that you combine Hapkido / JuJitsu to your background. Some TKD schools with ties to older masters incorporate Hapkido self defense techniques. They intertwine with each other most readily.

If you question your training and abilities, that's good in one respect. You are seeking to better yourself. That's one of the things that makes life worth living. Just don't focus on the wrong aspects of athleticism. It's one thing to do a 360 jump spinning hook kick over a table. It's quite another thing to blow somebodies knee out and put an elbow upside their head, without leaving the ground.
:asian:

[MountainSage]

Disco, I believe you and I have had this discussion before. Honestly, a marital art cannot be a sport and a sport cannot be a martial art. The mental and training process needs to be ingrain differently for each one. This can be debated add nausium. Martial arts are about self not self defense, if you go into the martial art with such a narrow vision you will never get the full understanding and effects. It is also difficult to advance in a system that values sport over the martial art. There some random thoughts.

Mountain Sage

[tarabos]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
he has had to water down his curriculum.

he doesn't have to do anything to water down his cirriculum, it was his choice. why he made the choice, that something you would have to ask him.

[Disco]

In all likelyhood, we probably have had this or a similar discussion.
I fully agree on the aspect of a sport not being a martial art and visa versa.

One of the viewpoints I have not commented on in the past but will now, is the ever increasing mindset that the martial arts are for self as you put it. I totally disagree and this is why. Lets go back to the very origins of the arts. Monks were trained for health and self protection. They already knew self, they were monks - spiritial. Martial arts were designed for combat. The farmers invented ways to use their tools as weapons against armed warriors. Now somewhere along the way between then and now, somebody decided to throw into the mix this idea of spiritial enlightenment etc. Perhaps some may / can aspire to that level, but to me that smacks of religion - Buddhism. If the individual should desire to traverse that road, that's their decision and their's alone. Now I'm not saying that the martial arts can't teach you alot about yourself, but almost any sport or physical activity can do that. Run football 2 a day drills, you'll really learn what your made of.

Perhaps the terminology "Martial Arts" is misleading. Arts implies a softer more esoteric value. Mabey it should read "Martial Ways" for: related to or suited for war.

I applaud you, if you have desired and found an alternate value for your training which enhances your outlook on humanity. For all my almost 40yrs within the arts, I have never found anyone that walked into my or other schools seeking spiritial enlightenment or looking to find an understanding of self. I want to learn - teach me self defense, is what they ask.
:asian:

[MountainSage]

Disco I must agree with you points of information, yet do not be mistaken that I am looking for spiritual enlightenment. The need for war skill have become less necessary over time. I agree that most people do come into your and other schools to learn self-defense, yet how many truely need it or do they believe or are lead to believe there is a need. I read or was told that on average a person will need to defend themselves from a true assault twice in a lifetime, that at much. On the other hand life sneak up and slaps you down daily. Why not train for everyday life not the two attacks, ie learn to breath correctly, move correctly, control the inner demon stuff. We're getting of track here and I'm driv'in the train. The issue is how to fix modern TKD not how we as individuals see martial arts training. That is opinion and what we need is concrete and doable solution. Remember Kikkiwon TKD is not recognized as a martial art by the Korean Government.

Mountian Sage

[A.R.K.]

This is why I prefer to call a martial 'self defense' style/system a discipline and a martial 'sport' style/system an art.

:asian:

[Disco]

Training for everyday life as you pointed out is very valid and indeed needed. All the aspects you pointed out are all very desireous. As far as someone being attacked on the average of twice in their lifetime, I have reservations. Statistics are/can be misleading. People who live in not so rural areas are subject to more hostile enviroments.

As for fixing TKD. I'm affraid that there is no fix available. With it's admission to the olympics, it has become big business. Greed has successfully reared it's ugly head. The commerical school owners, especially the Korean's will not submitt to having their income reduced.

As for having an American Kukkiwon, we already have one. The AAU has their own TKD branch and issue's rank certifications. The problem there is that they want way to much money. Right now there is a big power struggle going on between the USTU, the new USTW and the AAU. All centered around the Olympics and money. I just recently found out that my former Korean Grand Master left the USTU and went to the new USTW. I further learned that he has now become attached with the AAU. That unto itself tells me that something very big and political is coming down the pike. But reguardless of who has control of America's TKD, I fear nothing will change except were you get your next promotion from.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and comments......:asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by tarabos
he doesn't have to do anything to water down his cirriculum, it was his choice. why he made the choice, that something you would have to ask him.

You are correct, my SBN didn't have to water down his curriculum at all. However, remember what has been posted around this site many times over, the majority of people don't have the Nads or can stomach really hardcore intense MA training.

If the SBN were to teach our Art the way he was trained, I'd venture to guess that he'd lose the majority of his students and income. At my dojang there are just a few hardcore practitioners who I believe would be able to hack the more difficult and intense, all out balls to the wall self-defense combat TKD training.

I agree with A.R.K. in that ideally, one of the best ways to learn the proper concepts and techniques, especially here, is in a small selected group meeting in a garage, backyard, park, church rec room, etc., etc., without having to worry about paying large overhead fees. IMHO you're better off if you're in a situation where you're training with only those practitioners who want to be there and want to learn the more effective style of our Art.

I better shut this down before I go on a longer rant... ;) :D

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Disco

It's one thing to do a 360 jump spinning hook kick over a table. It's quite another thing to blow somebodies knee out and put an elbow upside their head, without leaving the ground.
:asian:

Yup, and if I were unforntunate enough to become involved in a street scrap, one of the last kicks I'd think about performing would be any type of 360. #1 I'm too damn slow, and #2 I wouldn't want to leave the ground because that makes slow guys like me much more vulnerable to get blasted... :o :(

You do what works best to save your ass in those types of situations... :asian:

[MichiganTKD]

In response to the original post: Do not be fooled into thinking that because someone was born and raised in Korea, and practiced Tae Kwon Do there, he was any good or has legitimate credentials. It all depends on what kind of school and Instructors he had access to. A Korean-born Instructor who practiced at a neighborhood dojang in Korea and entered a few low-level tournaments before coming to America is going to be a crappy Instructor over here.
I was lucky. Our GM trained at the Chung Do Kwan headquarters in Korea under the CDK Head, and part of the elite University-Korean Army team. Our prtactice was hardcore but WTF. Unfortunately, most people will not have access to this type of training. Even he said 95% of Tae Kwon Do in Korea and America is junk, especially around military bases (in Korea).
I don't really know what to say to you. My advice is just keep practicing and maybe look for a different school until you find one you feel comfortable with.