Why Rank?

[paihequan]

As a reasonably newcomer to MT, I have noticed that several threads ultimately end up in discussions (often heated) reagrding people's rank, who they may have studied with or the title they may use.

Why is this aspect of the martial arts so important?

Rank and title is but a small part of the martial arts yet is given to the most discussion. Why is this. Surely the arts themselves are more important than the belts around the waists of those who practice them? Perhaps it's time for more discussion about the arts and not the personalities inviolved within?

[arnisador]

As per this post (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=133903#post133903), further beatings of the dead horses of credentials and frauds will result in suspensions.

I am not implying that paihequan's post is of that nature but threads like this have consistently led to credential/fraud/etc. issues and we will not tolerate further disruptive posts in that vein.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Bob Hubbard]

The rank issue IMO comes from 2 areas.

1 is the desire to keep score

2 is the desire to have titles.

In the past, there were earls and dukes and princes. Now, we annoint with dan ranks. Some liken rank to educational degrees. The differences however that exist in the systems makes the 'royalty' comparison better, I think.

Many times, rank is awarded not for martial skill, but based on political, financial and personal reasons. One does not goto school for 4 years and automatically get a degree, diploma or award, yet in the martial arts world many organizations will bump you every so many years, provided your dues are up to date. Sadly, just as there are 'diploma mills' that will print anything for anyone for a buck, there are 'rank mills' that do the same.

The reality is that all the rank, all the stripes on your belt mean jack if you can't do 'it' when it counts. I think there are only 3 ranks that count. Student, teacher and teachers teacher. Beyond that, its mostly marketing, and score keeping.

My opinion.
:asian:

[arnisador]

I largely agree with Kaith--esp. that there's little need for rank beyond student (possibly beg./adv.), instructor, and head of system.

I will say that while I think marketing is the big issue, and that the influx of children into the arts is what drives that, that some instructors do use it to recall who knows what amongst underbelts in their large classes. So I think a related question is, How many students is too many? Should an instructor be expected to know off the top of his/her head where each student is at in their training?

[John Bishop]

These questions always seem to be asked by people who either don't have any rank, or have questionable rank.
I never see someone saying it's perfectly fine to have a teacher, lawyer, doctor, etc., who is skilled, but not credentialed. You can't even teach 5 year olds in kindergarden without proper training and credentialing.
But yet some people are always quick to sell the martial arts short and place it on a much lower level. They say things like, "don't worry about paper, it's just for those with big ego's".
The martial arts has always had traditions, requirements, and customs. But yet, people want to bypass requirements, take shortcuts, and still be considered "legitmate".
And then there are people who jump from organization to organization to get their promotions. Or the ones who are promoted by people they have never even met, let alone spent time on the mat with.
To just say that rank is meaningless because some idiots and frauds have bought theirs or self promoted, is very insulting to the men who have spent decades earning theirs.

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by John Bishop
To just say that rank is meaningless because some idiots and frauds have bought theirs or self promoted, is very insulting to the men who have spent decades earning theirs.

I agree. I dont think rank as a whole is meaningless. I do however think that the fixation on it has caused a major devaluation of it. On the surface, you would think a 4th dan is a 4th dan is a 4th dan. The truth is, with a gazillion different grading systems, and requirements, etc, plus all the 'paper tigers', its all different. To the average person, a doctorate is a doctorate. But, Harvard is a better school than the local community college. Both are better than the mailorder mill, and how does the 'honorary doctorate' fit in? Too often, someone just 'knights' someone (or themselves) and the guy thats spent 20-40 years busting his ass is suddenly out'ranked' by some total git.

Now, 'mom' sees you have a 3rd, but he has an 8th. Gee 8 is better than 3, so 'Tommy' goes to the papertigers mcdojo and 4 years later (when he's a 3rd) gets his head handed to him by some streetpunk.

We can discuss setting some standards, but the truth is, the best lobbiests and most $ will set the standards, which is great if you do TKD, or Karate, but what if you do Muay Thai or Escrido? Is a board made up of TKD, Karate and Tai Chi really qualified to know if the JKD instructors legit, or just a hack? Also, the addes expence of organizing such a board, traveling to stand before them and such, would IMO do more damage to the startups who cant afford more than a small spare part of their yard or house as a school. Only those with $$ will be able to start a school then.

Theres no 'easy' answer.

The truth is, anyone can buy a belt and print a cert and drop some names. The average person has no clue whats on the cert. or whats really behind it. Sadly, they also don't know whats behind a doctorate either.

:(

[paihequan]

Thanks to all for sharing your views. Sadly in today's martial arts, rank is a marketing tool and one used to great effect by those who often proclaim that they are above such things.

The real value of rank is in qualifying the relationship that exists between an individual student and their teacher.

It seems so sad to me that rank often is made an issue rather than looking at the total person.

[Shinzu]

if training is your goal and you obtain rank, then good for you. if you train just to obtain rank then you have no idea what the martial arts is all about.

[twinkletoes]

Originally posted by Shinzu
if training is your goal and you obtain rank, then good for you. if you train just to obtain rank then you have no idea what the martial arts is all about.

That is an excellent summation.

Rank is best used as a guide to keep competition fairly even. That is why the colored belt system was adopted. It was a creation of Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo.

The actual idea of "ranks" came about just before that, and was a hot topic among the karate instructors of Japan. I've heard that many of them argued over whether or not they would ever give a rank to a student.

Rank's best purpose is to separate competitors. Beyond that it is over-used by many. I think it has value 1) as a means of goal setting and 2) as a means of quality control.

For goal setting, as Shinzu said so well, the skill should be the goal, not the rank.

For quality control, it is worthwhile if everyone participates. As others have said, once a rank is not equivalent to equal rank somewhere else, this purpose is gone.

~TT

"Let's throw the belts in the river and just train." ~Brian, friend and instructor of mine.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by John Bishop
These questions always seem to be asked by people who either don't have any rank, or have questionable rank.
I never see someone saying it's perfectly fine to have a teacher, lawyer, doctor, etc., who is skilled, but not credentialed. You can't even teach 5 year olds in kindergarden without proper training and credentialing.
But yet some people are always quick to sell the martial arts short and place it on a much lower level. They say things like, "don't worry about paper, it's just for those with big ego's".
The martial arts has always had traditions, requirements, and customs. But yet, people want to bypass requirements, take shortcuts, and still be considered "legitmate".
And then there are people who jump from organization to organization to get their promotions. Or the ones who are promoted by people they have never even met, let alone spent time on the mat with.
To just say that rank is meaningless because some idiots and frauds have bought theirs or self promoted, is very insulting to the men who have spent decades earning theirs.

First my former Sifu does not certify, so I would think that there may be reasons for jumping organizations. Whether he would of certified me is a another discussion. Anyone can ask him if they choose to.
http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

Second Sijo Emperado was certified up to %th Dan by his Sifu William Chow BUT his 10th Dan came from an OUTSIDE organization, a Chinese Athletic Association. This information I received from you!

So did Sijo TRAIN to earn his 10th Dan? And considering he Promoted Ed Parker to 8th Dan. What affect does this have on all the high ranking Kenpo and Kajukenbo MA'ists out there?






:asian:

[wakinaguri]

You are right. The ranking is getting too watered down. You will see a lot of self ranking going on out there. They see another person who had studied with their instructor and they say he is a 5th degree black belt. Well I studied with my instructor longer than he did, I am at least a 6th degree black belt and they promote themselves. This happens a lot after the instructor is dead.

[tshadowchaser]

Ranking is BIG money these days. Many schools make their bank acounts lage by chaing vast amounts of money or testing and ranking. Some organizations demand a portion of testing fees go to the Home country. So rank has a monatary value to some.
To others it is a guide as to how well they have learned and how close they are to their goals. Some must test every time they gain another rank Some are handed their rank for political reasons, some are ranked simply to give an inner structure to the organization and to show where the knowledge is (to outsiders).
The rank on the door, in the phone book, on a web site, may attract students. The quality of instruction Keeps students. I agree with those that say that rank sometimes has nothing to do with knowledge.
Beginner/ student, disciple, instructor/head instructor between these given stations are many years of practice and oh so much knowledge
I prefer to be a student (always learning) My instructor says Im a disciple and instructor (his choice and I follow what he says) In my mind I'll always be a student

[A.R.K.]

These questions always seem to be asked by people who either don't have any rank, or have questionable rank.

John, with respect I disagree. I see people who have 'rank' that is 'valid' that question the direction it has taken in the MA world. No one wears their belt outside of the school, at least I hope they don't :D . I isn't worn in a real fight. And the attacker isn't going to ask you about it ahead of time either.

Kaith mentioned

On the surface, you would think a 4th dan is a 4th dan is a 4th dan. The truth is, with a gazillion different grading systems, and requirements,

I have talked about this before. Even in the same discipline there will be differences many times. A belt color or Dan degree doesn't mean anything. Let me repeat this...neither means anything as far as ability or skill. Time in and money paid yes. There are white belts that can beat the snot out of 5th Dans. In fact lets be honest, there are NO belts that can beat the snot out of BB's.

It is the heart and the skill that are of value not the paper and certainly not what is around the waist.


The martial arts has always had traditions, requirements, and customs

No, not originally. They were a means to an end. All the fluff was added later and is totally uneeded in training for it's intented purpose.

Credentials are fine and in today's society often needed. But a MA cert, even from the most 'reputable' organization is not even close in terms of importance with other items such as a medical or legal degree. It is only meaningfull in a very small segment of society that are familar with such things. In other words, a X Dan registered with the YYY federation isn't going to get you a job anywhere, except MAYBE at a school belonging to the same group.

And then there are people who jump from organization to organization to get their promotions.

Nothing new there John. It permeates the industry. Lets be honest again, it is all a game for grown ups. We don't NEED any organization in order to train hard and protect ourselves. Look at all the people who protected themselves BEFORE those organizations ever existed. Look at all the instructors who successfully taught before there where any organizations to say they were 'legitimate'. There were some bad apples then, there are some now..that's life.



To just say that rank is meaningless because some idiots and frauds have bought theirs or self promoted, is very insulting to the men who have spent decades earning theirs.

Depends on what you mean by 'earn'. It is my personal opinion that even if you have faithfully trained hard for years and decades and excelled in every aspect....you haven't earned anything if you are untested in a real life altercation. That may sound harsh, but once again, lets look at the bottom line. MA is to defend yourself. No fluff, no feathers, no esoteric pholosophy. It is to hurt someone so you don't get hurt. If you've never actually used it to protect yourself [not you personally, it is a general comment] then how have you 'earned' anything other than a piece of cloth and something to put on your wall?

A man that goes to Harvard and gets a law degree but goes out and sells cars instead....is not a lawyer. A man that graduates form med school and completes internship who then goes into real estate....isn't a doctor. A man who trains for X years and 'earns' a 5th Dan in style X but has never ever been in a real fight and used what he has learned, or even found out if what he has learned works......

My humble opinion is that if you wear the belt and hang up the wall candy...that is wear your heart is. If you train just to train in case you need to use it one day [as well as the other benefits] and the belt and the wall candy and the other hoopla really doesn't matter...then you truly have understood what it's all about.

Just some thoughts.

:asian:

[Disco]

As pointed out, rank originated elsewhere (Japan). Modern day students (since ranking originated), have been conditioned mentally that this is the accepted norm.

When we see our teachers, master instructors and grand masters jockey for positions or even create positions, what else are we to think. This is the accepted protocol. We are products of our environment. As also pointed out, credentials are a must in todays society. How do you get these credentials? Hopefully you train and belong to an honest and fair school and parent organization. (Now I'm only addressing people that do train. Anybody with a computer can create anything they desire. Can't stop or regulate them. Their not honorable, but that seems to be the choosen path for many). Back to subject. Now what happens, if you do in fact train and find that what / who you are associated with has put limits (for whatever reasons) on your advancement.
As a society, we dictate that you must show us proof of education. Walk into any dojo/dojang and the first thing that most people look for is what's on the wall. That's the way the general public has been conditioned. So for those who wish to teach and expand their choosen style, rank / certification is a mandate fostered by the guidelines society has laid down. Now you can use any terminology you choose; Dan, Sash, 1st/2nd Level, Instructor/Senior Instructor, etc. They all denote some sort of ranking. It's world wide, but as said above, it's been handed down to us. With this as a concluded fact, we are forced to a great extent to follow or get left behind. I'll use this example: Two schools open up within short distance of each other. One is operated by a 2nd Dan. The other a 5th Dan. Both teach the same style. Now think like the general untrained public. Which school would you most likely go to. With not enough students to stay open, the 2nd Dan will more than likely close up. Now the 5th Dan has it locked up all because of rank.

Point being, Rank is a necessary evil. It's been force generated upon us and it's not going to go away. Accept or reject, it's the individuals choice.

Just my opinion................... :asian:

[twinkletoes]

Originally posted by Disco
Point being, Rank is a necessary evil. It's been force generated upon us and it's not going to go away. Accept or reject, it's the individuals choice.

Disco,

I like what you've written. I agree a lot. The only thing I think is no longer true is that it is a necessary evil. Look at the straight blast gym and their efforts to teach without rank, ritual, or title. The only use of rank in their entire organization is for BJJ competition, and that is begrudgingly adopted. Also, with the rise of MMA and other performance-oriented training methods, instead of the old image-driven paradigm, I think people will start caring a lot less about the belts if we show them it's not necessary.

Best,

~TT

[John Bishop]

Martial arts styles, systems, and methods have grown tremendously over the last century. In the beginning there was no need for ranks because a style or school consisted of a teacher and 5-6 students he trained in his back yard.
Now days several systems consist of hundreds of thousands, or even millions of members. So how do you have a organization this large without some type of hiearchy, organizational chain of command, system of progression, or leadership?

I guess the big question here is what do you consider a martial art? In the old days we considered a martial art a system that taught self defense techniques while teaching the individual how to improve his "body, mind, and spirit".
No one ever said you're not a martial artist unless you've been in a street fight. In fact you were taught to avoid fighting if at all possible.
No one said that your belt was only earned because of your fighting ability. I have been a police officer for 31 years, and have had to use my martial arts training too many times to remember, but I would never consider that something that makes me a better martial artist or more qualified for rank than someone else. It gives me some insights that not everybody may have, but it has nothing to do with what rank I deserve or my position in my system.

I can see it now, we take the 25 year old black belts, have them challenge the 70 year old 9th degrees who have been in the arts over 50 years. If they can't beat the 25 year olds, they don't deserve to wear the 9th degree rank.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by paihequan
As a reasonably newcomer to MT, I have noticed that several threads ultimately end up in discussions (often heated) reagrding people's rank, who they may have studied with or the title they may use.

Why is this aspect of the martial arts so important?

Rank and title is but a small part of the martial arts yet is given to the most discussion. Why is this. Surely the arts themselves are more important than the belts around the waists of those who practice them? Perhaps it's time for more discussion about the arts and not the personalities inviolved within?


My opinion,

In my time in the arts I have seen many frauds or paper champions as I like to call them, these people claim to be somthing they are not and then they try to sell these lies to the public. Sooner or later they all get caught and it puts distrust of the martial arts into the public, they dont know who they can trust and the entire martial arts world takes the hit while the paper champions laugh all the way to the bank. So its no wonder that real martial artists across the globe are trying to catch and expose the paper champions in a attempt to restore the arts image to the public. I agree with those who try to expose the truth, but there is a time and place and most lies always get exposed, thats called irony. I dont dwell on rank but beleive it is important to have promotion levels in the arts that way you can set goals and have a more even match up at tournaments ect.
:asian:

[paihequan]

Twinkletoes wrote:

"I think people will start caring a lot less about the belts if we show them it's not necessary."

Perfect. I could not agree more! :asian:

[A.R.K.]

This has been an excellent thread with very interesting views expressed by everyone. Gives us much to think about. My hats off to everyone who is participating.

:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Martial arts styles, systems, and methods have grown tremendously over the last century. In the beginning there was no need for ranks because a style or school consisted of a teacher and 5-6 students he trained in his back yard.
Now days several systems consist of hundreds of thousands, or even millions of members. So how do you have a organization this large without some type of hiearchy, organizational chain of command, system of progression, or leadership?

I guess the big question here is what do you consider a martial art? In the old days we considered a martial art a system that taught self defense techniques while teaching the individual how to improve his "body, mind, and spirit".
No one ever said you're not a martial artist unless you've been in a street fight. In fact you were taught to avoid fighting if at all possible.
No one said that your belt was only earned because of your fighting ability. I have been a police officer for 31 years, and have had to use my martial arts training too many times to remember, but I would never consider that something that makes me a better martial artist or more qualified for rank than someone else. It gives me some insights that not everybody may have, but it has nothing to do with what rank I deserve or my position in my system.

I can see it now, we take the 25 year old black belts, have them challenge the 70 year old 9th degrees who have been in the arts over 50 years. If they can't beat the 25 year olds, they don't deserve to wear the 9th degree rank.

John, I like your ability to sit back and analyze and for the most part "stay positive!"

I re-read my post and it was a little"harsher" than meant to be. A short version of my point was that we have 1, 2 & 3 year blackbelts coming up and they couldn't put their hands on me in their wildest dreams (for the most part). And today we have 3rd and 4th Dans that only trained in one system and think they can't be beat. And they too would be "very troubled" trying to figure me out as a fighter.

I've trained longer than most before receiving Instructorship and without joining outside organizations would still be teaching illegitimately!

:asian:

[Galvatron]

I don't really have much to add, most of what I'd say concerning this has already been said by other people.
I accept rank as an established part of modern martial arts...
I personally don't place very much value on it, but it serves its purpose...I've been a 2nd Dan since 11/94, because I just haven't bothered testing, I'm sure I will eventually, but I just don't see the need to have another stripe of tape on my belt to tell me I know something.
I sort of get a kick out of meeting other 2nd dan's who's entire martial arts careers span less time than I've been a 2nd dan.

[Rick Tsubota]

I think people claim too mcuh rank they look stupid to real martial arts man, but to beginer they look like big shot.
So maybe they want beginer to think they are big shot.

[paihequan]

Maybe, just maybe there are some people in the martial arts that don't care about rank at all

:asian:

[Brother John]

Many times, rank is awarded not for martial skill, but based on political, financial and personal reasons. One does not goto school for 4 years and automatically get a degree, diploma or award, yet in the martial arts world many organizations will bump you every so many years, provided your dues are up to date. Sadly, just as there are 'diploma mills' that will print anything for anyone for a buck, there are 'rank mills' that do the same.

Rank is important and useful in many ways, but that which is useful/important AND arbitrary/subjective is prone to MUCH abuse... and it has been abused. But that doesn't take away from it's basic usefulness... to the individual. To me it lets me know where I'm at in my art by using both coordinants: where I've been and where I'm going next. It's a gauge, but as the standards of measurement aren't (nor could they be) universal for this guage... it's no more than a point of reference. To me rank has more to do with ME... on MY path in MY art. What others think of it? It's a starting point for what they might be able to expect of me... and little more than that.

As my first instructor told me repeatedly: "Rank is little more than your instructors opinion of you."
Agreed.

Your Brother
John

[Shadow Hunter]

In some arts, you are not considered qualified to teach unless you hit a certain rank. And different ranks are allowed to teach different levels.

I get a giggle out of people that mention their rank, and then immediatly turn around and talk about how rank means nothing. On the one hand, they want people to know just how good they are, and they also want people to be impressed with their humility.

My solution- don't mention rank at all. Don't ask anyone else about their's and don't talk about it either having value or not.

By the same token, I don't mention any groups I belong to or the teachers I have trained with. In some cases, my associations and teachers do not want too much talk about them in open forums.

The people that complain the loudest are usually the worst offenders in the ego game.

[paihequan]

Interesting viewpoints.

Shadow Hunter: I have to agree. All too often it is those who are attached heavily to the concept of rank that will attack others over this verys same issue.

[John Bishop]

Paihequan:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to some previous posts here, aren't you the one who claimed rank and background that was shown to be false?
And now your trying to get people to support your new belief that rank is not important, and has no meaning?

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Paihequan:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to some previous posts here, aren't you the one who claimed rank and background that was shown to be false?
And now your trying to get people to support your new belief that rank is not important, and has no meaning?


John,

not for nothing but why are you trying to start another flame war!

:asian:

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
Maybe, just maybe there are some people in the martial arts that don't care about rank at all

:asian:


Some people maybe dont care about rank. Not many people.
Some people love rank and buy fake rank too.

[Bob Hubbard]

Mod Note: The discussion of rank is ok. The rehashing of old debates surrounding certain members is not. For a clarifiation, please see the rules on 'Fraud Busting'. As long as it doesn't become another rehash, things are ok.

Thank you.

:asian:

[paihequan]

John and Ricky:

With all due respect, how did I know that you'd attempt to go down such a negative path. As stated, those who complain the loudest abour rank are those who try to use it to show their superiority over others. Pretty saddening is it not?

As Bob said, keep on subject please.


:asian:

[Shadow Hunter]

I feel like I have wandered into a minefield without directions.

Maybe it would be safest to suggest that anyone who feels that rank is meaningless should not complain about it or start threads asking why rank is needed.

Sitting around and complaining about something just sounds like sour grapes in a lot of cases. I know people who have rank and don't think it means anything. They just don't pay anymore attention to it than a guy living in Hawaii pays attention to his defrost button on his car. It is the guys that don't have a rank they feel they deserve that seem to make the most noise.

[A.R.K.]

I haven't seen anyone really complaining about this topic. And I don't see anything wrong with introducing it as a topic of conversation and asking for others input. Thats the whole purpose of this board and a fine way to express yourself and learn from others.

Many people may have at one time desired rank and put it on a high priority list. But at some point changed to regard it as not that important of an item. That shows growth.

Many people may feel the need to present their credentials for an intended purpose. As an example, many here are instructors that have web sites linked to their posts. In this world prospective students wish to see the background of instructors, which is a good thing. Feeling the need to list such credentials in that medium is a necessity from a business standpoint, but the individual instructor may also personally feel that such rank has a less important priority against the much higher priority of what he can teach a student.

However, on the other perspective, if someone feels rank holds an important position in their life no one should look down on that. We are all in different places in live. Some have traveled down the road long ago and some haven't gotten there yet.

Very interesting to see the different opinions here. :)

:asian:

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
John and Ricky:

With all due respect, how did I know that you'd attempt to go down such a negative path. As stated, those who complain the loudest abour rank are those who try to use it to show their superiority over others. Pretty saddening is it not?

As Bob said, keep on subject please.


:asian:

Again nobody said your name.

You make this kind of topic that you know might make trouble and then trouble comes you say "oh it always happens", and try to play like you are innocent.

Nobody try to use rank to show superior level except people that say they are very high rank. They want people think they are great or something because of belt or title.
Its stupid idea and usually done by people who are weak martial arts person. Thats what I think is sad. I feel sad for people who do that because they don't get real meaning from martial arts. Just stupid title and pretty belt.

[paihequan]

Rick,

If your comments are not directed towards me then could you please explain why it is I continue to receive ill-mannered and rather childish e-mails from you on this very subject to my private e-mail address???:rolleyes:

Please adhere to the Moderators request and keep on subject.

:asian:

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
Rick,

If your comments are not directed towards me then could you please explain why it is I continue to receive ill-mannered and rather childish e-mails from you on this very subject to my private e-mail address???:rolleyes:

Please adhere to the Moderators request and keep on subject.

:asian:

You are funny guy.
You always like to twist story and make people think you are innocent guy.

I get email from you first. I never send you email first.

This is your email to me on Thu, 10 Jul 2003

To clarify,_ firstly I find you rude, offensive and ill-mannered for one who
proclaims to be form an Okinawan Karatedo heritage. You are a small minded
individual whose time would be better spent on building yourself as a better
person rather than trying to drag others down to your petty, childish and
unfortunate level.

I spent nine years in total associated with Mr. Yabiku. I spent two weeks
training under him on Okinawa. I never paid for a grade from him!I have had no
association with Mr. Yabiku nor his group for quite a numner of years so your
beating a long dead horse! Stop living in the past and get over it. Dwelling on
this like it's the last scrap of "fact you have is extremely pathetic and sad.
You have my sympathy.

I was unfortunately associated with a group known as_ Juko-Kai prior to Mr.
Yabiku. I did not pay the stated $3000 you mention for a rank. Your "facts" are
incorrect. I made a mistake being associated with this group and am glad to have
left that behind in the past and to have moved on. I claim no rank at all unlike
yourself and your associates.

My direct reply e-mail is tsuruken@austarnet.com.au

I believe in person to person discussions not public boards. If you want to
discuss your issues more then you can reach me care of the above.

In the meantime, I, unlike you, will be moving forward, and enjoying my life and
training.

Best wishes,

Ron

My answer to you.

>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:11 PM
Subject: Re:


> I can email you a copy of the email I got from Ryushikan and Macarthy.
> You want see it?
> I think it said 3,500....you are a fake and a liar.
> I hate both.

(I looked again it was only 1,500 dollar for fake Soke rank)

Your answer.

Ricky. (As you call yourself) ---- What makes you think I care about what
you think!


My question to you.

>
>
> >Ricky. (As you call yourself) -
>
> What does this mean?


Your answer.

> >Ricky,
> >
> >Why does it matter?
> >
> >Ron.
> >

My question.

> You think I am not Rick?
> Maybe you are angry because I think you are stupid gaijin that got rank
from
> fake karate man.
> Funny you make comment about rank means nothing but you get fake rank from
2
> teachers.

your answer.

Ricky,

Again, what makes you think I care for you or your opinion.Grow up!


My answer/

>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: Re:


> No you need to grow up.
> You are a fake and liar.
> Now you don't claim rank because everyone know you teacher is liar and
fake.

Your answer on 16 July email #1.

Ricky, Ricky, Ricky<

First of all your wrong as Mr. Yabiku is NOT my teacher! I have not had any
contact with Mr. Yabiku for quite a number of years.


I do have_ two teachers/advisors. Both are highly respected in the martial
arts. Once again you are acting on the talk of others who like yourself,
have never met me.

You judge someone on the talk of others! How childish is that! No sir, you
need to grow up --- if even for your own sake!

Ron


(I don't say Yabiku, but you know I mean him. I think its funny, and its not others talk it is your email you wrote and say you bought fake rank. And you steal Mr. Macarthys website and say bad things about him to other people. Do you want to see? Maybe it can make your memory more clear?)


You extra answer today on email #2

Ricky,

Furthermore, If you don't like me why e-mail me? Go on with your own life
and try to find some happiness!



Funny you email me first then tell me not to email you.
I don't understnad this idea.

[Shadow Hunter]

This was a rather nice thread until someone decided to take offense at the comments about buying rank and proceeded to anounce to the world just how well that particular shoe fit him.

Drop it. Just drop it. Now. No more parting shots, no snide comments and no hinting about e-mails other people have sent you.

We don't care!!!!!

[Shuri-te]

Shadow Hunter:

I did enjoy your post.

It is odd how motivated a "certain poster" is to trash Paihequan. Bringing up tired old issues long ago settled. One wonders if he considers himself the new self-appointed MT fraud-buster-in-chief. Now that Mr. Rousselet is no longer posting under the RyuShiKan ID, it is curious indeed how this void was so quickly filled.

The management and mods have set standards on what is acceptable to post. Over the past few months, a few malcontents have engaged in a major "fraud busting" effort. Many, the management, the mods and the certainly many readers, have commented how utterly useless it his all been, not helpful at all to MT, just detrimental. But some refuse to get the message. Maybe more large type-face might help.

When someone claims that fraud-busting is a good thing, I like to ask: "What is the fraud-buster accomplishing?" It is one thing if some newbie white belt comes on this forum, and writes all sorts of unsupportable statements. Fine, everyone agrees that it is appropriate to let them know that their statements on history, technique, philosophy, or training don't measure up.

And if the "fraud-busting" purpose is to alert MT readers that in a particular seminar or school the instruction was really bad, then that is something else that many posters here think appropriate to comment on.

But that has never been the issue with the recent MT fraud-busting. Skill has never been the issue. Years of training have never been questioned. And perhaps most importantly, teaching ability is never questioned. It all comes down to whether contributors have been awarded high rank from dubious sources. There is an implicit, but false assumption that this has something to do with knowledge, skill, and teaching ability. In fact, they are unrelated.

What is so comical about the whole issue, is that good posting on MT requires no martial arts skill or tenure whatsoever. One can be a complete arm-chair martial artist and make a great contribution here. The speed, power and ability that years of training bring really are all meaningless skills when it comes to posting on the Internet. If someone wants to debate the fine nuances of the use of the words "soke" or "kyoshu" or "atemi", or "you", then one might admit that years of training will have little value.

Let's examine the fraud-buster record of recent. Since mid-February, four have come under intense scrutiny and thousands upon thousands of words have flown across this board. All four individuals are fairly long-term students of the arts, two claiming some 30 years of training in the arts. Of the two others, one was a teacher and one a student to one of these 30-year practitioners.

And what is the issue???? That they have been given high rank from "dubious" sources. There is no mention of their training. No mention of their teaching. No mention of their contribution to the art. And yet they get dragged back and forth through the mud from the moment they post on this board.

And I can just visualize the smug, self-satisfied fraud-buster, shining his nails on his chest saying:

"Yup, just busted me another dang tootin' fraud. How dare these people with a measly 30 years experience come to MT to post."

How about this. How about exposing fraudulent teachers, even ones that have legitimately learned their art but can't teach worth a hoot.

I went to a seminar recently given by a high-ranking Okinawan master who relocated to the US in the 1970's. He comes to the East Coast a few times each year to teach his students here. In four hours, we covered approximately 4 or 5 basic techniques. No combinations. No variations, just a few basic wrist locks and a modified front kick.

His English wasn't great, so he talked through a translator. He droned on and on in Japanese, way past what the translator was capable of remembering. He demoed lots of things we didn't practice. This can be okay, but he did so at a rapid clip, guaranteeing many students would remember little. And he made no effort to even have his techniques seen by many of the attendees. Since the master is not all that tall, most could not even really see through the crowd. And oddly, a stage was behind the master, so he easily could have made himself far more visible. All in all, this seminar was a big ho-hum.

The sad thing is that for many of his students there, this might be all the time they would spend with him that year. And many traveled hours and spent the night in order to attend.

But hey, this guy is headmaster of his own system, and an acknowledged expert. So what if his seminar wasn't all that worthwhile. He was duly accredited, so he is off-limits to the fraud-busters.

Best to go after two or three posters on MT. And go after them again, and again, and again, and again.

[arnisador]

Please bring the discussion back on-topic and away from specific individuals.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[paihequan]

Rick,

As stated, I'll not lower myself nor this board to your rather questionable standards and practices.Your actions show more about you than I or anyone else could. The more you post in such a manner, the more ypu reveal about your true character.

I apologize to all on Martial Talk for allowing this thread to go down the path it has.

:asian:

[Shadow Hunter]

I give up. I just freaking give up. Some people/groups just have to trash the other guy and get the last word in with some snide comment.

Why should I even bother sticking around here? Jesus!

[paihequan]

Shadow Hunter,

Please stay and contribute towards bringing the discussion back on topic.

:asian:

[Shadow Hunter]

Ok, how about you do the same thing and ask your buddies to do the same.

I am getting pretty damn sick of this. Give it up already!

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:

2 suspensions. 1 for beating a dead horse, 1 for getting the last word.

Whose next?

:soapbox:

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
My opinion,

In my time in the arts I have seen many frauds or paper champions as I like to call them, these people claim to be somthing they are not and then they try to sell these lies to the public. Sooner or later they all get caught and it puts distrust of the martial arts into the public, they dont know who they can trust and the entire martial arts world takes the hit while the paper champions laugh all the way to the bank. So its no wonder that real martial artists across the globe are trying to catch and expose the paper champions in a attempt to restore the arts image to the public. I agree with those who try to expose the truth, but there is a time and place and most lies always get exposed, thats called irony. I dont dwell on rank but beleive it is important to have promotion levels in the arts that way you can set goals and have a more even match up at tournaments ect.
:asian:


:asian: I will attempt to use my earlier quote from page two of this discussion to return this thread to its original topic, I beleive we had a good conversation going here for a while! :asian:


I have Black Belts in three styles and have been sucker punched and knocked out by someone with no training (not somthing I'm proud of) but I learned a valuable lesson, just because someone has martial arts training (rank) does not mean they are a better fighter just that they strive to acomplish they emotional, physical, and mental awards of the martial arts.
HAS MY TRAINING IN THE ARTS TOUGHT ME TO DEFEND MYSELF?yes


DEFINITIONS:
1. rank- level of trainig you have received.
2. black belt- serious student
3. certificate- somthing you hang on your wall or keep in the closet in a box.
4. credentials- your background in the arts, who you have trained with ect. mostly used for instructors to give thier students some idea of who the instructor is and where they came from.

:asian:

Just my opinion!

[GaryM]

Originally posted by John Bishop
[B

I can see it now, we take the 25 year old black belts, have them challenge the 70 year old 9th degrees who have been in the arts over 50 years. If they can't beat the 25 year olds, they don't deserve to wear the 9th degree rank. [/B] I think that this would result in fewer 9th degrees, and FAR fewer 26 year old blackbeats!

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by GaryM
I think that this would result in fewer 9th degrees, and FAR fewer 26 year old blackbeats!

:rofl:

I somehow think you are right.....heh

[Shadow Hunter]

Just thinking and trying to get this conversation on track.

Within certain orginizations, there are chances to train with respected, high ranking teachers that are limited to those that hold a certain level of rank. The teacher quite simply does not want to teach the basics yet again or teach stuff that is above most students.

So, in this case of large orginizations with centralized ranking procedures, there is a good reason for rank. If you want advanced training, you have to prove you are ready for it.

At the same time, because few orginizations have the same standards for rank, letting the public at large know what rank you have does not seem to make much sense IMHO. If you want to impress people with a lofty rank or pretty title, then yes. But I do not feel the need to impress others. Some orginizations do not let people teach unless they are of a certain rank. But if you are teaching, then that is a moot point to tell the students.

I still am of the opinion that telling others what rank you are is a sign of insecurity, but I do not feel that talking about it is anymore appropriate than going into burger joints and lecturing on the evils of eating meat. Some people do it, I don't and I respect their right to do what they want without a lot of preaching.

[A.R.K.]

Shadow,

I would like to add that it is important to remember that we are all at different places in 'life'. Different levels of training, different ages, different backgrounds and certainly different in viewpoints.

As I mentioned, an individual may start out with 'rank' in mind. But over the years realize how little it actually means. We have to allow for others to take their own walk down the martial arts path and come to their own conclusions.

As an example, as an Instructor I need to provide credentials to students when asked. But when I'm with peers we normally don't even wear a belt much less care about what degree each other is. We just train for trainings sake.

:asian:

[Shuri-te]

In all sorts of endeavors, people seek status. And rank, an indicator of status, in all its shapes and forms, has its privileges. It is earned in all different sorts of ways including hard work, luck, scheming, and forming alliances with the right people. The list goes on. And the ways in which we award rank to people are countless. Some are formal, others not. The military and law enforcement are just two examples of organizations that issue formal rank.

There are also many martial arts that award formal rank. I can only comment on those karate systems in the U.S. that I have some familiarity with.

In the arts that were influenced by the Japanese (Okinawan and Japanese Karate as well as Korean systems) we have the concept of black belt with different degrees with the very highest ranks reserved for elder masters that have devoted their lives to the art. I think the idea of rewarding high rank to long term students of the art has great merit. IMO, one of the best things we can have in karate is lots of old masters who have consistently practiced throughout their lives. If they have achieved great skill in their life, and are good, decent human beings with the character and demeanor befitting a master, then we should hold a place of special respect for them. That is their due. In special cases, their years of training and devotion to an art can even bring great wisdom, even more befitting of high rank.

The challenge we have is that in many systems, there are often no standards so that many get to high dans at a relatively young age. We can't ignore that today we do have have lots of people starting in the arts as children or teenagers, and for those that are devoted, by the time they are in their 30's they can achieve extraordinary skill. Many more traditional systems wouldn't promote these dedicated students above 5th dan, certainly not above 6th dan. But some systems, less constrained by the norms of tradition, might reward a student of considerable skill with very high rank regardless of their age.

To prevent the problem of young people prematurely attaining the high rank reserved for the elder masters, the Japanese karate organizations adopted a standard grading system. Many traditional karate systems abide by these rules. Following are the 1971 guidelines of the Federation of All-Japan Karate-Do Organizations (FAJKO) for awarding first through 8th dan.

Grade.....Minimum Age...Years After Last Rank
Shodan..........16..............1
Nidan.............18..............2
Sandan..........21..............3
Yondan..........25..............4
Godan............30..............5
Rokudan.........36..............6
Shichidan.......42..............7
Hachidan........50..............8

If one looks at the history of traditional karate in the U.S., one can see an explosion of high dans in the past several decades, and some might think that this is due to lower standards.

But a look at history reveals this can be viewed, in large part, as a normal progression. Over the last 50 years, scores of thousands of GIs were exposed to karate. Many studied arduously in Okinawan dojos under some of the very best masters and then took their newfound art home with them.

Sometimes they took the masters as well. In some cases, Japanese and Okinawan systems sent out "emissaries" to grow the art abroad. And the case of TKD, this was done on a grand scale and this mass migration of Korean TKD teachers to the US is the foundation for the enormous popularity of this art. But regarding karate, it was the numerous GIs who were primarily responsible for bringing the art to all corners of the US.

If you go back to the early 60s, there were just a handful of ex-GIs teaching. But as more returned, and as more Okinawans and Japanese karateka emigrated to the U.S., and more students joined these new dojos, and trained long enough to open their own dojos, the number of karate students with many years training mushroomed.

The important point is that in the early 60s, we had a handful of ex GIs in the US all with perhaps 5 years of training. So of course their rank was relatively low. Fast forward some 40 years, and now these karateka have 35-40 years experience, and many of their senior students 30+ years in the arts. I think we should all expect a corresponding explosion of high rank as a result.

Under this group of senior students is a very large group of students with 15-20 years experience. I would argue that as this group ages, we should anticipate even further growth of high rank.

[John Bishop]

Very Well Said:)

[A.R.K.]

Bravo :asian:

[Shuri-te]

In this era of rank inflation, some might be tempted to look at the old-school Okinawans and think that high ranks are rare in those systems. But many systems, including those that are clearly well-respected, have amassed quite a surprising number of high ranks.

There is probably no system as mainline as Seikichi Iha's Shidokan. His teacher, Katsuya Miyahira, now 85, was one of the top four students of Chosin Chibana, the founder of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu and a protégé of Itosu. Iha is now heir apparent to the system.

Iha moved to LA in 1967 and then to Lansing Michigan in 1976 where most of his students have studied. He also picked up a splinter organization when Robert Herten left Shuguro Nakazato's Shorinkan system a decade ago. (Nakazato was also one of the four senior students of Chibana.)

At www.ihadojo.com, you can find a directory of Iha's current students. Following are the rankings 3rd dan and above.

3rd dan - 40
4th dan - 20
5th dan - 14
6th dan - 12
7th dan - 5

The 6th and 7th dans began training in the late 60s and early 70s. Most all have their own schools and are helping to grow the art.

I doubt anyone who has trained with Iha would ever call his school a McDojo, or accuse him of being a dan factory. He is about as old-school as they come. This guy jumps rope on the knuckles of his toes. And when it comes to integrity and honesty, this great master has it all. He lives to teach his students. And they return the devotion in full.

And these guys are no wimps. His top student, Nakasone, is on video driving his forearm through the lower shaft of a baseball bat. That's just an example of Iha's senior students who are all serious, long-term practitioners of the art.

I bring up this example to show what one might expect regarding rank promotion under a successful, respected Okinawan master in the U.S. Here is just one karate teacher, and one can see how he has grown a fairly large crop of high-dans, and high-dans in the making.

[Shuri-te]

Regarding awarding high rank at young ages, here's something I posted on an earlier thread.


In Japan, there have been young high dans. One example is Shogo Kuniba who reached 7th dan at 31 (http://www.kunibakai.org/history_of_shogo_kuniba.htm). Eizo Shimabukuro, headmaster of Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, was promoted to 10th dan at 34 by Kanken Toyama. (http://www.okinawankarateclub.com/Shorin_Ryu.htm). Oyata was a 7th dan by the time he was 36.

In the system I began in, my sensei had been promoted by Kuniba to 5th dan at age 34 with only 16 years training.

There has been some mention of the dan factories that have existed in Okinawa for the Marines and Airmen stationed there. From my U.S. location, it is hard to differentiate a dan factory from a legitimate traditional Okinawan Karate dojo. But following is an example of a mainstream Okinawan system awarding high rank to a rather young U.S. airman.

On http://www.usashorinryu.org/About/fdrh.cfm, Frank Hargrove describes his ascent under Shuguro Nakazato. After a year he made shodan, and three years later, at the age of 22, he was promoted to 4th dan. Six years later, he was awarded 6th dan.

My guess as that Hargrove was in the dojo pretty much every waking minute he was not on duty, training many hours every day. But even so, his blistering movement through the ranks is an indicator that this issue of rapid promotion is not limited to U.S. dojos, but can been found in mainstream Okinawan schools as well.

[A.R.K.]

Good information. It would seem it is folly to cast judgement [negative or positive] on another individual without having an in-depth and first hand knowledge of their training. Standards vary dramactically as does personal commitments. To base an opinion soley on 'paper' [or lack thereof] is to turn a blind eye to the entire picture.

That might be an interesting topic i.e. the 'big' picture. What should be the guide rod to measure a practitioner? I would suggest;

Total time in training [in terms of months/years].

Amount of time in training [in terms of hours per day/week].

Who the instructor is/was [although this is only a superficial item].

Organizational affiliation[s] [again only a superficial consideration].

Practical experience.

Contribution to the arts.

Interesting topic.

:asian: