how much time on the ground?

[twinkletoes]

This is probably one that comes around a lot, but:

What percentage of time do you devote to groundfighting in Women's Self-Defense seminars?

Now, I'm not talking about long-term classes, here, but one-shot or short series seminars.

I teach 1-shot deals from time to time, and I usually teach *1* technique that covers 90% of rape defense, pushed to the ground, and striking from your back situations. It's basically open guard with gouges and strikes.

I encourage seminar attendees to join my BJJ classes if they want to learn more on the ground, but that's all I cover.

What do you do to address this area?

~TT

[lvwhitebir]

In my traditional self defense class (about 12 weeks long) we devote about 25% to the ground. I teach 4 basic positions:

1. Escape when he's mounted (typical position when he's just got you to the ground)
2. Escape when he's in your guard (typically the position right before the rape occurs)
3. Escape when you're on your knees and he's behind you, with an arm around your waist (he's got you when you're trying to get away by turning around)
4. Escape from what I call the date-rape position (he's in almost a cowboy mount with you on your back, he's leaning down as if to kiss you. IMO the first position most women are likely to encounter in a date-rape scenario.)

For guys, I also throw in 3 ground headlock escapes. They don't need the "date-rape" position defense ([EDIT]) but often find themselves in tighter headlocks.

The other segments I teach are:
25% stand-up strike defenses/attacks
25% stand-up grab defenses
25% weapon defenses

About 25% of each 1-hour class is devoted to discussion topics on attack avoidance, which is where about 80% of self defense is really at (how not to become a victim in the first place).

The problem with "short-term" self defense classes is that they can't provide enough coverage for what the student really needs, IMO. I think they need all 4 areas to adequately start to defend themselves: assaults and spousal abuse needs more standup, rape needs more ground fighting, aggravated assaults and muggings need more weapons defenses.

WhiteBirch

EDITed for content. -Arnisador

[twinkletoes]

The problem with "short-term" self defense classes is that they can't provide enough coverage for what the student really needs, IMO.

I couldn't agree more. While I tend to wind up teaching short-term courses, I try to emphasize a couple things:

#1 All I can teach you in a night or a weekend or a few weeks is your attitude. Attitude is #1! You can begin to develop the right mindset for self-defense pretty quickly--this is the crux of what I aim to teach in "short term" courses.

#2 More trianins is always available, and it doesn't mean you have to sign away your free time for the rest of your life to learn to meditate and wear funny uniforms. I actually recruited people for my BJJ and Krav Maga classes through self-defense workshops. It gave them a taste, and they wanted more. I say this not because it benefitted me financially, but more importantly, because it gave them somewhere to pursue the ideas that I got them started on.

~TT

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

... I always feel like there's nowhere near enough time. If the class is a couple of hours, one class, then I feel like I have to wish them luck. It's an awesome burden if you accept the responsibility.

But the reason I honestly don't bother with ground work in such a situation is because the first and most important areas to teach are being aware of your environment, not ending up on the ground where you have to fight and can't run away, and not having a victim mentality.

If they leave with these three things, they may avoid ever having to use anything else I could teach them.

No offense to anyone out there, but think about it -- if you only have a couple of hours (or less) to improve someone's odds of survival, why would you waste time by focusing the whole class on FIGHTING? If you think quickly covering "fighting skills" is the purpose of such a course instead of common sense, the psychology of confrontation, situational preparedness, and a few grab-releases, you just set up someone for failure -- or far worse.

[arnisador]

What's the "cowboy mount" position?

[arnisador]

I have deleted one post and edited another for inappropriate humour.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
But the reason I honestly don't bother with ground work in such a situation is because the first and most important areas to teach are being aware of your environment, not ending up on the ground where you have to fight and can't run away, and not having a victim mentality.

If they leave with these three things, they may avoid ever having to use anything else I could teach them.

I agree that the mental and preparation portion of self-defense is 80% of the effort. But most of that material can be obtained by reading. There are a ton of books out there on the subject of self defense and most talk about how to avoid trouble. I structure my class like a college course, with a self-defense book as our "text book" in which there is assigned reading that we discuss.

I feel that the class can discuss these things, answer questions and what-not (that's why I spend 25% on topics like this), but the reason they need a class is to be able to practice the more practical side. They can't do that from a book. They need a partner and need to learn how to apply the defenses in an environment that simulates the hostility, so they learn to deal with the adrenaline rush and the uncertainty of what the attacker is going to do next.

Ground fighting is important to me because I think that it's where most women find themselves in a rape scenario. It's far more likely that a woman will be raped by someone she knows. And if that's the case, she'll let get them close to her and won't know to defend herself until it's too late. Too many people worry about rape from the stranger jumping out of the bushes when it happens far less often.

WhiteBirch

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by arnisador
What's the "cowboy mount" position?

Think of holding a headlock on someone on the ground, your laying nearly chest to chest, looking at them, with one arm on the other side of their body (a headlock would have the arm wrapped around their neck).

It's kind of like how you would kiss your girlfriend if she were lying on her back and you were sitting over her.

WhiteBirch

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
... Ground fighting is important to me because I think that it's where most women find themselves in a rape scenario. It's far more likely that a woman will be raped by someone she knows. And if that's the case, she'll let get them close to her and won't know to defend herself until it's too late. Too many people worry about rape from the stranger jumping out of the bushes when it happens far less often.

WhiteBirch

You know, you're absolutely right about this point. I was looking at it too much from a man's perspective, and I stand corrected (and will keep this in mind in future curriculum).

But as for the "book" stuff, people usually take a course INSTEAD of reading a book, and IMO still need someone to talk to them in person about such things for it to sink in.