Getting cut

[fist of fury]

I haven't started any knife defenses yet so bare with me if this sounds stupid. But from what I've observed in watching knife defenses it's seems almost certain that you will get cut so you just try and limit the severity. And to limit the amount of damage you take is done by letting the outside of the arm get cut so no major arteries get cut. Is this someahat correct I know there's more to it and you try to avoid getting cut at all.

[tshadowchaser]

Getting cut depends on a few things,like do you train with a live blade or a training blade, the speed you practice at, how competent your training partner is with the blade.
If you train with a live blade Yes you will get cut sooner or later ( if you are realy practicing not just doing moves)
As to how to do the techniques to lessen the chance of a serious cut. Well that is for your instructor to tell you Listen well and pray he knows his stuff.
Shadow

[Despairbear]

One of the problems with getting cut anywhere is not just blood loss but tissue damage. Even a cut to the back of the arm can sever muscule and tendons that will cause you to lose the ablility to use the arm effectivly or even at all.




Despair Bear

[Rubber Ducky]

But sometimes getting cut is a distinct possibility so it's something that is often addressed in bladed arts. At least IME. In Pekiti Tirsia Kali we're taught that the empty hand (how the heck did that happen!) should be presented to the opponent with the back of the hand leading to present a bone shield and the least damaging cut. Cutting the inside of the arm can get arteries severed, and more importantly lead to the loss of the ability to close your hand - how's the knife going to be held? :)

I'm sure that other arts have a different view, but the issue does need to be addressed somehow within the framework being studied - if the art deals with weapons as part of its curriculum.

Pierre

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Rubber Ducky
But sometimes getting cut is a distinct possibility so it's something that is often addressed in bladed arts. At least IME. In Pekiti Tirsia Kali we're taught that the empty hand (how the heck did that happen!) should be presented to the opponent with the back of the hand leading to present a bone shield and the least damaging cut. Cutting the inside of the arm can get arteries severed, and more importantly lead to the loss of the ability to close your hand - how's the knife going to be held? :)

I'm sure that other arts have a different view, but the issue does need to be addressed somehow within the framework being studied - if the art deals with weapons as part of its curriculum.

Pierre

Actually, the system I train in (which has a bit of Pekiti-Tirsia as well as Sayoc Kali) also has us use the 'backside' of the hand/forearm for openhand work against a blade, for example, with the 'live' hand. If the tendons on the top/backside of the hand/arm are cut, that would prevent opening the hand, but would still allow a person to hold on to a weapon.

Of course, I'd prefer not to get into a knife fight in the first place. :D

Cthulhu

[fist of fury]

Ok another question. During your training using whatever types of practice blades you have how often did you get "cut"? was it 30-%40 of the time? how confident do you feel you training will be beneficial in the street?

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by fist of fury
Ok another question. During your training using whatever types of practice blades you have how often did you get "cut"? was it 30-%40 of the time? how confident do you feel you training will be beneficial in the street?

I honestly couldn't say, as I'm still new to FMA training. I'm still trying to get the palisut flow down. The guros I train with always make sure to point out how easy it is to add cuts during the drill, as well as other techniques, but they only show a few so as not to interrupt the flow.

One of them has stated that after knife sparring (training knives, of course) with someone with only about 1 month's worth of FMA training, he still got 'cut' about 50% of the time. This guy is very good with blades, so that was a sobering thought.

And another reason why I don't want to get into a knife fight.

Cthulhu

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Cthulhu


I honestly couldn't say, as I'm still new to FMA training. I'm still trying to get the palisut flow down. The guros I train with always make sure to point out how easy it is to add cuts during the drill, as well as other techniques, but they only show a few so as not to interrupt the flow.

One of them has stated that after knife sparring (training knives, of course) with someone with only about 1 month's worth of FMA training, he still got 'cut' about 50% of the time. This guy is very good with blades, so that was a sobering thought.

And another reason why I don't want to get into a knife fight.

Cthulhu
It doesn't seem like you can avoid getting cut, I've just started my FMA training myself and haven't even gotten to knife defense yet.

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by fist of fury

It doesn't seem like you can avoid getting cut, I've just started my FMA training myself and haven't even gotten to knife defense yet.

It does seem that way. Unless you are incredibly gifted, in both skill and attributes, and your opponent is incredibly stupid, a cut seems inevitable. If ever faced with a knife-wielding opponent, I hope to have some sort of stick on hand, like my ASP baton. This way, I can stay way the hell out in largo range, where it's nice and (relatively) safe. :)

Again, the best prospect is to just not get into a friggin' knife fight. Or any type of fight, for that matter.

Well, water balloon fights are fun...:D

Cthulhu

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Cthulhu


It does seem that way. Unless you are incredibly gifted, in both skill and attributes, and your opponent is incredibly stupid, a cut seems inevitable. If ever faced with a knife-wielding opponent, I hope to have some sort of stick on hand, like my ASP baton. This way, I can stay way the hell out in largo range, where it's nice and (relatively) safe. :)

Again, the best prospect is to just not get into a friggin' knife fight. Or any type of fight, for that matter.

Well, water balloon fights are fun...:D

Cthulhu
The ASP baton is that one of those collapsable ones? If so I was wanting to get one but was curious as to how sturdy they are. It seems to me that thier somewhat hollow and flimsy. How sturdy are they compared to the rattan or solid wood? What kind of metal are they generally made of?

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by fist of fury

The ASP baton is that one of those collapsable ones? If so I was wanting to get one but was curious as to how sturdy they are. It seems to me that thier somewhat hollow and flimsy. How sturdy are they compared to the rattan or solid wood? What kind of metal are they generally made of?

Yep, that's the one.

Mine appears to be made of steel, as it is quite heavy. It is hollow, but it is definitely NOT flimsy!

Since they're collapsable, they end up tapering, but the handle end is thick enough to provide a good grip, and the butt (punyo) end is a steel cap. Abanico strikes may be a bit difficult for some, due to its weight.

If you've seen an ASP that is flimsy, then it either has not been properly maintained, or it's a knockoff. If the baton is has been taken care of, it will lock into place when 'flicked' open and will generally not collapse until it is pounded into a hard surface.

Especially after receiving some FMA training, I feel confident carrying an ASP as a defensive weapon.

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
One of them has stated that after knife sparring (training knives, of course) with someone with only about 1 month's worth of FMA training, he still got 'cut' about 50% of the time. This guy is very good with blades, so that was a sobering thought.

I think that that estimate isn't far off. It is sobering. I wouldn't want to fight anyone who had a knife now--when I knew less FMA I was much more confident in my ability to defend myself against the knife.

[no fefe]

Sparring with a training knife can certainly be a humbling experience. Sometimes I think I am doing alright and getting decent then we do some knife sparring and end up thinking man do I know anything at all? I think it is good to have a healthy fear of the knife and that you keep yourself based on reality possibly of getting cut.

Dont forget to use your other tools when sparring like low line kicking. Often I do not try to stab in the chest, if my sparring partners hand is there I go for it I always try to take the FMA's Defang the Snake principle to heart when it comes to utilizing a knife.

Robert K.

[fist of fury]

Well I think I'll invest in one of those batons. I avoid confrontations as much as possible but if I had no other choice I'd rather have something I could use to defend myself with against a knife wielding opponent.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by fist of fury
Well I think I'll invest in one of those batons.

Cthulhu, can you post a link to the one you have and like? I have a cheap one that I wouldn't carry.

[fist of fury]

Yeah a link would be good I want to make sure I get a high quality one

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador


Cthulhu, can you post a link to the one you have and like? I have a cheap one that I wouldn't carry.

Here's a random supplier. Couldn't find their homepage, but at least you get an idea of price:

http://www.uws.com/ASPBATONS/HomePage.html

Cthulhu

[fist of fury]

Thanks:)

[Don Rearic]

After hitting someone with a MagLite on the street and not wanting to break all of my flashlights on people, I purchased an ASP-21 Baton. The number following ASP is usually the length when opened. I've owned the shorter [can't remember the open length of it! 16 sounds right!] and longer, 26-Inch Model. I carried the 21 for work, for approximately 7 years and never had a failure with it.

Looking back, I should have purchased two of them because I eventually had Taper Lock failure on the 21 to the point it would not stay open on a thrust into an Everlast Heavy Bag...I just beat the bag with no mercy back then with it. The shafts will eventually wear out. I never had a problem on the street though and used them on several occasions.

The funny thing about an ASP or any Telescoping Baton is, they are alot like a folding knife that you snap open using inertia, or a Switchblade or Balisong...it's usually dark when bad things happen and it appears you have nothing. All of the sudden with a sliding-snapping sound, you have a 21 inch piece of steel in your hand and I've had more people back-off immediately from that and that alone, then I had to hit. Although some of them did not get the message until they got hit. Such is life...

It's a great weapon for Street-level Self-defense where you can carry them legally. Most people on the street, not all - but most, use very cheap knives and if you hit their wrist with an ASP, you're going to break the bones, you hit the hands or fingers, they're going to break. If you hit most folding knives with one that street criminals would carry, the knife is either going to go flying or it is going to break.

I can tell you about three altercations with them that I was involved in. One, a fellow outside of a bar was hanging with some friends/miscreants...and I had to secure a building across the street and they came over and it all began very badly. Alcohol does not promote rational thought in many people. He ended up having a Budweiser bottle broke in his hand. That's a hint. That was a good shot too. I'm proud of that one. :D

Another, ASP hit knife hand, knife flew every bit of 15 feet out into the street. Guy turned and ran holding his hand.

Another, I thought I was going to have a problem with a critter and I smacked him low on the outside of the thigh...hit the nerve perfect. Leg buckled, down he went.

All were on the job, legal and justified, no "Barney Badass" stories or Walt Disney Tales.

The ASP, where you can carry it without it being a Felony, is an excellent weapon. It can be a first line before you resort to swimming in bodily fluids. This is a time for smart fighting and like I always tell people who say, "God, you carry a KNIFE!!?!" I simply say, I never want to cut anyone, Hep and AIDS will kill you. I'd do it if I had to, I'd prefer not to be soaked and you will be soaked in alot of cases...it's not a sterile form of Combat. Neither are firearms...

To those of you that carry an ASP Baton, I would give you the following advice...

1. Work the heavybag with it. Alot.

2. Use dumbells, solid steel bars...VERY SLOWLY, without weights being on the small bar, rotate the wrist for Abanico movements, it will strengthen your wrist and forearm because an ASP is steel and it is totally different from the rattan you may be used to. It has different dynamics in almost every way you can imagine.

That would be, holding the arm out with the bar in your hand, palm towards the floor, rotate the palm to the right, palm up, go back and then go left. Do it until you want to croak. You can slowly add weights to that, VERY SMALL AMOUNTS and ADD SLOWLY so you do not damage yourself. Soon, you will see when you use the real deal on the heavy bag, you will fly and hit harder.

3. Hang a tennis ball from a tree outside, etc. Practice Abanico on that. Get it going and focus on using the tip of the ASP and not the length. Get your targeting down.

4. Unless it is a situation where you would be legally justified in using a firearm or an edged weapon for Self-defense, do NOT hit people in the head, neck or clavicles with the ASP. All of which ASP has down as lethal areas. Try to work within those parameters and you can always say, "Even though I'm not a Police Officer, I followed the Manufacturer's advice and did not target areas that carried with them the possibility of death."

If the guy has a knife and you have to hit him in those areas, that, in most cases, would probably be justified. .

If the guy is already in medium range and you do a double Abanico to the hand and head...I think you would be justified as long as you did not turn his head into a plate of lasagna after he hit the ground.

Because of some people just being very tough, the presence of alcohol and many other things that can [i]Chemically Fuel an attacker, you may have to hit them more than once. In a situation where you are legally justified in hitting them in a lethal area, you might have to hit them more than once to put them down for the count.

Just be careful and realize you need to train with the ASP and not just rattan if you are carrying one.

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
If the guy is already in medium range and you do a double Abanico to the hand and head...I think you would be justified as long as you did not turn his head into a plate of lasagna after he hit the ground.


mmmm I like lasagna :D
Even if I was confronted with a knife I don't I would strike any of those areas I would perfer to severly disable if I could since criminals can now sue victims and get away with it. But if it came down to my life or the criminals his life would be forefit.

[Don Rearic]

Actually, it is not as easy as that. "Severely disabling" someone often means breaking bones and otherwise busting them up, so the possibility of a Civil Suit will always exist and possibly more than if you had killed them justifiably.

Basically, there are no easy answers and you roll the dice every time. You have to remember, a bunch of people are going to Monday Morning Quarterback the whole altercation anyway. There is no way around that, that IS having a Trial. Hindsight is 20/20, always and being Judged by People who were not there in cases of Self-defense is always the worst form of Monday Morning Quarterbacking you can imagine.

Unless you can articulate every single thought, feeling and emotion you had and then entwine that with what you did, why you did it and how you did it...you're basically sunk anyway.

[fist of fury]

Thats true. I would just have to use my mystical jedi mind tricks to sway the jury in my direction.

[Rubber Ducky]

Don, why is the clavicle a lethal area? I'm not saying it's not by any means, I'm just not aware of what's lethal in there.

It's too bad too, because the right clavicle is a beauty target for a number 2 (in Pekiti Tirsia, don't know if the numbering is standard).

Pierre

[Don Rearic]

The Clavicle is an excellent target with a Baton because if you break it, the arm on that side is basically useless...

ASP's Medical Consultants looked at some Baton Injuries involving the Clavicle and there are recorded fatalities due to the Clavicle breaking, directed downward and puncturing the Subclavian Artery and/or Vein.

Being in P.T., you'll know there are certain thrusts done with a knife that cause major medical problems. Thrusting into the armpits, for example, can sever the Axillary...coming off of the aforementioned structure(s) and becoming the Brachial in the upper arm. If completely severed, it can retract into the chest cavity more and flood it.

The Subclavian Target is alot like that, you basically need a pair of hemostats to stop the bleeding, direct pressure won't accomplish it in many cases...

So, ASP, in their research, looked at the potential for that happening with their Baton and placed that in their Guidelines.

I'm not saying I agree that the potential exists to the degree ASP does, quite frankly, if you hit someone in the ribs, you can puncture a lung or the liver with a broken rib, etc. Anything can happen and almost every thing you can imagine has already happened in Close Quarters Combat.

I just put it in there for people who carry them so they know. The last thing you need is to crack someone in the Clavicle with an ASP and you thought you were not going to smoke them and they croak. Then the Prosecutor says, "Well, you went against the Guidelines ASP set forth, didn't you?" And you're sitting their shaking your head, wondering what Prison food tastes like. :D

[Cthulhu]

I was a bit confused about the clavicle/lethality thing until I remembered that the subclavial artery is one of the targets taught by my FCS instructors, which most likely comes from the Sayoc Kali. Every person I know who has had the misfortune of breaking their clavicle has told me it's one of the most painful things they've ever experienced. One told me that the arm on the same side as the broken clavicle was useless. Another told me that he was in so much pain, he couldn't move at all.

I suppose if you had superb control over the strike, it would be a very nice target to go for. However, if you're pumped with adrenaline and really whang it, I can see where the risk of more severe injury and possibly death could occur.

Ah, Applied Anatomy for the Martial Artist 101.

Cthulhu

[DWright]

Intresting about the ASP and the "approved targeting".
PR-24 avoids only the head and neck, and actually trains twin strikes one to each clavicle. Considered a non-lethal tecnique.

Break both of someones clavicles they better have really good friends. (Ever seen how they cast those?)

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by DWright
Intresting about the ASP and the "approved targeting".
PR-24 avoids only the head and neck, and actually trains twin strikes one to each clavicle. Considered a non-lethal tecnique.

It's just two different Companies, Armament Systems and Procedures and Monadnock. It's to be expected really...


Break both of someones clavicles they better have really good friends. (Ever seen how they cast those?)

Break one and they're basically a non-issue unless they have a handgun!

It's pretty ugly, the cast, all up around the shoulder and down to the waist if I remember correctly. :D

[DWright]

Quote:

"It's pretty ugly, the cast, all up around the shoulder and down to the waist if I remember correctly. "


Thats how they cast it. With two broken clavicles the person walks around like Frankenstien. Definitly slows down the knife attack.

[Cthulhu]

I found out one of the FCS guros I train with was former law enforcement, and I mentioned this stuff on target areas with as ASP. For the department he worked for, it pretty much came down to the outside of the thigh being the only allowed target area, since various departments in the state had been getting sued for broken kneecaps, arms, hands, etc.

Cthulhu

[Ms J]

Originally posted by Despairbear
One of the problems with getting cut anywhere is not just blood loss but tissue damage. Even a cut to the back of the arm can sever muscule and tendons that will cause you to lose the ablility to use the arm effectivly or even at all.
Despair Bear

A Larger factor then slices and tissue damage, when facing the knife is the whole concept your trying to defend against, i.e. allowing someone to get the knife into your body, Note Into any part of your body deeper then approximately 1 ½ to 2 inches deep average, all it takes for your body to go into shock is a puncture or stab of that depth into the body, and this is the core concept of why we are defending against the knife, your trying to avoid getting killed or stabbed deeply enough for your body to go into shock, and at that depth the shock happens instantly.

In most cases, once that happens your dog meat and the attacker pushing the blade in deeper tends to follow easily as your body is in shock and your unable to react in time to even stop it from going in further. i.e. you end up dead or critical...

so that’s why we teach that fighting the knife is about minimizing the damage and getting the hell out.... real knife fights are unpredictable and anyone that try’s to tell you that you are not going to get cut is lying...

only a few things that might give you a higher rate of success for not being cut in a knife fight

1) get out before you get into close quarter range with the knife your facing, create a distance, and get the hell out.

2) now if you pack a gun and your really cool you can, before he is in close quarter range, pull out a gun and shoot the dude faster then he can get to you with the knife. now unfortunately that is a hard thing to do if the attacker is running at you full force with the knife and your gun is holstered..

The average attacker can cover:

5 feet in less then a quarter of a second.

10 feet in less then three-quarters of a second.

21 feet in less then one and a half seconds.

now 95 % of the police and military teams tested for this response rate in scenario training were unable to pull their gun out of their holster before the attacker got there with the knife.

As far as Knife disarms, in a realty based fight, yeah well…. That’s what long term training is for, until your willing to spend a large amount of your life facing the knife daily and training in it realistically, just learn to block, avoid, get out of dodge, create a distance anyway you can, take min cuts when you have to but only to avoid the worst case scenario…..

do I have a choice of defenses that can be used for defending against a knife? Yeah I do, but I make damn well sure my students understand that they better flat out expect to bleed and they better prepare for it or they will be facing the shock of being stabbed or the shock from being cut because someone told them that a defense would save them from getting cut did not work…

seriously, I have seen this instance with some traditional long term martial arts practitioners, that have trained in long term traditional martial arts for 25 years plus, when they end up on the streets for the first time facing a real knife attack, and get a little cut, they go into this freezing up type of shock because they cant believe they got cut….. the realty of everything they have learned for 25 years plus was just wiped out. and they just sort of stand there dazed for a second, that second is when they will eat it hard....

that is not a good place to be when you are seriously defending your life. Granted though, that’s the core thing that a knife fighter is counting on when going after you….. keep cutting until the shock sets in or they get the opening to stick you deeply enough to end the fight.

Note: a number of years ago I had a 30 year old man show up to take classes, came in and braged about how he had trained for a good 10 years taking a karate based art and he had spent a few hours training at some knife seminar. huge dude at least 6 foot 5 220 lbs.

Half way though the class i was teaching we moved from blunts to knife flow drills, at this point he piped up and stated that he had the prefect knife fighting tactic and that he no longer need to learn anymore.

I looked at him and said so what is it? he proceeds to tell me he learned this cool knife fighting technique in this weekend seminar he took once, he said when your fighting with the knife your suppose to take your knife and cut the attackers forehead so that the blood runs down the face into there eyes.

I asked him so wile your focusing all your less then level one knife fighting skills, and intent on aiming for the slice to the forehead, what are you doing to keep them from finding the opening you just made and the wide target to your gut that your leaving them?


Flat out, nothing is 100% because no knife fight is predictable….

Ms. J……

PS. Bear... as far as what are you going to do when you cant use your hand anymore if its been cut?

ummmmm well thats why you train both sides......

i had to teach my Saber teacher this lol... i messed with him sort of hard when i frist started taking saber, whenever he would turn his back on me i would switch hands, he would turn around and watch me then ask me if i was left handed... i said no, he goes well in saber we only use the doment hand...

i looked at him and said ok so what happens with my doment hand gets cut or cant be used? do i just put down the sword and say ooooooooo sorry buddy i cant fight you anymore because i cant hold my weapon in my right hand?

haha he started training his level one fencing students to train both hands though minumaly, but at least they now work them both in his class....

[Don Rearic]

The forehead cut is a good one, but for anyone to focus on that would be a mistake. It's still a fight but some people will focus on one or a half dozen things with a knife and won't let go. Basically, you want to be able to fight with a knife instead of "knifefight" per se. But anything you get that would blind them would be a great thing indeed. Vision impairment is a big plus but as you stated, you should never put yourself into a position to where you leave yourself completely open to get anything.

That can also be done on a thrust as well, with the same effect.

[Ms J]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
The forehead cut is a good one, but for anyone to focus on that would be a mistake. It's still a fight but some people will focus on one or a half dozen things with a knife and won't let go. Basically, you want to be able to fight with a knife instead of "knifefight" per se. But anything you get that would blind them would be a great thing indeed. Vision impairment is a big plus but as you stated, you should never put yourself into a position to where you leave yourself completely open to get anything.

That can also be done on a thrust as well, with the same effect.

Agreed, but i am not teaching knife fighting, especially in level one training...:) actually i dont teach knife fighting at all, i teach combat eskrima and gun and knife defensive tactics...

and i guess the largest point i am making is, unless someone is intending on spending their life studying and training in the blade and training in the realtys of the blade on the street, including the mind set of an attacker and all the differant mentaltys that you will face in a real knife fight, one tech is not going to be enough to save you...

Ms. J...

[Don Rearic]

That's why I said focusing on any one thing would be a mistake.

[Mao]

I think that we should also remember the psychological aspect of getting cut. When it's your own blood it's a little different. A gaping wound on the front OR back of the arm will have a strong psych. effect. Funny story, I was an a call where two guys were in a knife fight and were both laying on the ground, well diced, upon our arrival. The story they told the police was that they were NOT fighting with each other but that it was another guy who jumped them, both, cut them up and then fled. A different story came from witnesses. :rolleyes:

[Don Rearic]

I have been a fencesitter for quite some time on the psychological aspect of, "expect to get cut" and the other mindset...

And after alot of thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that you should realize there is a possibility that might indeed happen, but if you expect it to happen, it is probably going to happen. The mind is a powerful thing and the possibility of a Self-fulfilling prophecy should not be discounted or casually dismissed. Words mean things, positivity and negativity do have an effect on the mind.

I'm of the mindset that I fully realize I might be cut but my goal is to not be cut. Period.

I can damned well cut myself and don't have to get into it with a street hoodlum to have it happen, I can sit at home and do it myself.

The statements made about shock developing with various depths of penetration is part conjecture and part myth. I've seen people stabbed a half dozen times in the gut and they never even knew it, they were standing there, running their mouth and then, someone pointed it out to them and they crumpled.

That's shock. Having your arm instantly amputated in a car accident may or may not cause shock, looking down and seeing it usually will bring it on quickly. This is why people who are Military Corpsmen, Medics, etc., are told never to be "negative" to the patient because the negativity can kill them in seconds, they lose hope.

If you go into something and you already have it in your head that it is inevitable you are going to be cut...God help you.

In some cases, you won't even feel the cut, it depends on the weapon, the area hit and even the outside temperature. The colder it is, the less likely you will feel it as well.

Some of this comes from real world interviews on "Surviving Edged Weapons" and some of it comes from my own personal experience and that of friends who are active duty Law Enforcement and EMTs.

It's not so simple as is being typed out here.

[Mao]

To Dons post,
I agree with you completely. I have seen people stabbed who did not know it untill it was pointed out. I was refering to that exactly, the fact that the sight of your own blood has a strong psych. effect. The way I have approached it when teaching is that it's like boxing or playing football, if you play the game , your gonna get hit. However, that is why we train, so as to have the wherewithall to limit the possibility, or at least to have a better chance. I think that if we understand the psych. as well as the phys. aspect of getting cut,we'd be better off. This is where I can benefit my classes, with all the medical training, by sharing the knowledge/experience that I have garnered in the street. I do not think that one should go into it thinking they WILL get cut, but that they MIGHT and they may fare better with more understanding. Of course leaving the seen before anything starts is a wonderful idea. :D It appears that Mr. Rearic is quite insightful. :)

[Don Rearic]

I'm trying, Brother, I'm trying... I just don't want people to think they are immediately a Goner if a certain, arbitrary and magical number of inches is reached in penetration. It really has nothing to do with reality. The reality is, with knives, alot like with guns. People have been shot in the face with a .44 Magnum and survived and when President Reagan was shot, you saw a highly trained Secret Service Agent hit the deck from a .22 long rifle round.

The opposite might happen, you might get righteously pissed beause someone did wound you and instead of passing out at the thought of it, it sometimes pops the tab on an economy sized can of Whoopass. :D

There is an inherent danger in telling people, "You will suffer [or 'probably' either] shock with penetration of..." and then go on. Because that right there, you are programming them as well.

Every person is different, accept the possibility of it and focus on not getting butchered instead of dwelling on, "I know I'm going to get cut, it's inevitable that I get cut."

Believe me, I was in the other "camp" when it comes to this a couple years ago. But then I thought to myself, "WOW, when you got stabbed in the forearm...you didn't go out..." When I got cut with a carpet knife in the upper arm...I never even felt it, it went through the jacket and I never even knew I was cut, I felt like someone tugged on my jacket and that was it. I found out a few minutes later because I was squishy on the left hand side. :D

We cannot on one hand say things like, "Adrenaline makes you stronger and prepares you for battle and Endorphins are the body's natural morphine and will keep you from feeling pain in many instances..."

And then turn right around and suggest everyone is going to feint when they get stuck or cut a couple inches deep. It's a contradiction based in myth.

Ron Goldman sure as hell looks like he was ambulatory for quite some time and he got nailed repeatedly and much deeper than we are talking about in here. But his sad tale is not the only one to draw from...

[Ms J]

Dear Don, i know you have stated that you are basing your theories on experience from others that you know, but its unclear to me if you have been cut or stabbed with a knife before in the middle of a realty based conflict... not in training with the live blade or sparing but on the streets saving your life in a full traumatic event… and if so was it before you got training or after? there is a huge differance.

one of the points to going and getting training is to deal with the shock of the possable stab or cut, is that not part of the mentaly of learning how to deal with the attack? if not for others it is for me and when i teach and why i teach.

Please note i am just asking i am not confronting, or disagreeing with you...

And i agree with you in many instances, i.e. you have to know the realties of being cut, and that seeing the blood and so forth makes a powerful statement, but not only to the victim of the cut but the person doing the slicing and dicing as well...

Note as well though, just because someone does not feel a cut does not mean their body is not going into shock, shock affects people in many many ways, and if you have someone that has seen combat or trained and so forth they understand the realties and mentality’s of facing the knife more then someone that is new and is at a level one student base...

getting cut for them is a totally different physically and mentally, someone that is enraged or drugged and deranged will again have a totally different response to the shock that the body is going through.. Then you have to take into account adrenalin and so forth, again someone that is trained and is an " i.e. " street knife fighter or attacker with a knife... will take the shock to the body differently...

Than we have the totally untrained or a victim of past victimization with the knife...

Some people build a resalntcy to the trauma and others fear more... it totally depends on what took place the first time and how they dealt with the shock of the first encounter...

I agree mostly here that there are huge variables, but…. Remember I don’t teach knife fighting, I teach knife and gun awareness to the untrained and victims of weapons victimization…

So when I teach them I make sure they understand that its about defense and that the chances are they may get cut but that the techniques we are teaching them are to help avoid the death that could happen instead of a small cut here and there…

Again the mind set for these people and for untrained woman in self defense and awareness is what has to be taken into account first, above anything else, no matter what we teach its is catered to the mind set of the students we are teaching at the time…

I will state now, that my experience, training and advocacy of what i teach to others, not only comes form all of my teachers, my realty life based street defense of my own life a number of times dealing with weapons, body guarding experance saving my clinents lives, from the medical community as well as the psychiatric community, 15 years experance counsling victims of abuse, rape, domestic violance, victims of violent crime, Victims of weapons attacks and abuse, and then all of the many people that i have taught and trained on a global bases over the past 22 years in personal self defense and weapons awareness...


Ms. J....:)

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Ms J
Dear Don, i know you have stated that you are basing your theories on experience from others that you know, but its unclear to me if you have been cut or stabbed with a knife before in the middle of a realty based conflict... not in training with the live blade or sparing but on the streets saving your life in a full traumatic event… and if so was it before you got training or after? there is a huge differance.

Both times I was already trained in Jujutsu [not BJJ] and had some TKD [sigh] unfortunately, neither prepared me for this sort of thing.

The one on the upper arm was from a carpet knife, as I said before. When you look at these blades, they are basically just a triangular piece of steel when they are sticking out. It was actually more of a thrust [looking at it years later, scars shrink a bit and it is about two inches in length now], in that, it was very deep then went very shallow, like it went in and was simply dragged out. It must have been a new blade. I never even felt it until after everything was over. Then I got a bit queasy because I had the whole left side of me turning slushy. That was interesting because I was actually paying more attention to another guy who had a baseball bat who was a few feet away. I originally thought his buddy tried to punch me and he glanced off...

The other time was a pass, trying to pick the wrist up and I got stuck in the outside of the forearm. That one hurt, stung a bit, but that was not any sort of "shocking event" either even though I knew what happened and knew what I faced.

These two incidents are actually what led me down the road to learning about edged weapons and I guess in that way, they served their purpose.

I think shock is going to vary so wildly from person to person, like you stated, how will a drunk react? Well, no one knows for sure, but we know alcohol is an anticoagulant, so we know they hemorrhage profusely. Methamphetamine and PCP, all different things going on in the "Street World."

Training can change some things, blade training even more... The point I'm trying to get at is, there is no accurate way of predicting shock.

There is no way you can predict pain. One slash will cut a nerve and you cannot feel anything in that area. Severe hemorrhage can also numb a wound... As we are both agreeing, there are many variables.

I think this sort of goes back to William Fairbairn's "Timetable of Death" when it comes to edged weapons. As right as Fairbairn was on so many things related to Close Quarters Combat, I have shopped that "Timetable" to a Vascular Nurse and an Orthopedic Surgeon at Baltimore's Union Memorial Hospital as well as Shock Trauma Nurses and one Surgeon at Baltimore's Shock Trauma when I have been there on business in the past. Once they got by the "shock" of such an odd request, I think they understood and they, too, stated there were so many variables that one could not possibly predict that one artery being severed, or a combination would cause unconsciousness and/or death in X number of seconds or minutes.

I posted this in a discussion with Darren Laur back a couple of months ago. Dr. Newgard was speaking of Gunshot Wounds [GSWs] but the information is still valid and has some use to those interested in Edged Weapons Combatives.


"For an average 70 kg (155 lb.) male, the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force) his aortic blood flow can reach 11liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume. This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because:

1. Bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood
vessels.

2. As blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows.

3. Surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss.

4. The bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels.

5. Bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood
vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than a rapid bleeding.”

~Ken Newgard, M.D.:”The Physiological Effects of Handgun
Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation.”
Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992

Do you see one contradiction already? I do, but it is not Newgard's fault, it's the way our body is wired. Under stress, you have more blood volume, when the person begins to hemorrhage profusely, the body will adjust to slow the bleeding.

In the Famous "Miami Shootout," which should be familiar to some folks as it was the one incident that made a drastic shift from revolvers to semiautomatic handguns in American Law Enforcement, the one bank robber [Platt] had a severed brachial artery and vein in one arm and actively engaged for quite some time.


As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.
..

...At autopsy, Platt’s right lung was completely collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1300 ml of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Dr. Anderson believes that Platt’s first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death.


Continuing...


Platt then apparently positioned the Mini-14 against his shoulder using his uninjured left hand and manipulated the trigger with a barely functioning finger on his right hand, and fired three shots. One shot was directed at Orrantia and Risner’s location, which hit the steering wheel of their car. Orrantia was injured by flying debris from this bullet. Two shots were fired at McNeill. The first bullet missed McNeill, but the second hit his neck. The second bullet stunned McNeill’s spinal cord causing him to collapse, and he was temporarily paralyzed for several hours afterwards. McNeill recounts that Platt was smiling at him as he was shot.


The FBI Shootout in Miami against Platt & Matix at Firearms Tactical Online. (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm)

Platt was smiling as he was exsanguinating, he had no fear, he did not care what Fairbairn or anyone else had to say about how he should drop when severely wounded and not merely stabbed or slashed.

The reason this information is so incredibly important to people interested in Edged Weapons is, the brachial artery is one of the prime vessels that can be struck in "defanging the snake." Structural targets and vascular, this one being the latter, obviously.

We are told that people will drop in a few seconds after taking such a hit, but that is simply not so.

How we react when shot, stabbed or cut has everything to do with how we program ourselves. Television plays a large role in this. Platt apparently missed the episodes on TV and Movies where people are supposed to die and he most certainly missed Paul Vunak's statements about the brachial being able to cause unconsciousness in a few seconds.

Platt was like an animal, he fell only when his body told him to fall. It's just that simple. No one told him he should have been in shock and even if he was in shock, he still counterattacked with ferocity and determination and even smiled at one Officer before he let him have it with a Mini-14. That's a pretty determined foe.

We all hope we run into someone that thinks they are supposed to instantaneously go into shock! We don't want to run into a criminal like Platt. Makes the job of Self-defense almost a suicidal task. He was a dead man walking. He would not fall because Hollywood told him to, and in point of fact, he did not fall because of exsanguination, he was stopped, finally, by FBI Agent Mireles
who shot him again and again with a .357 Magnum. Platt, almost miraculously, survived and had a heartbeat although he was unconscious while the EMTs worked on the wounded FBI Agents and Police Officers and they then shifted their attention to Platt and Matix. Matix was dead and they started to work on Platt but he died a short time later at the scene. It's all in the report.

The point I am trying to make is, Platt was a survivor when many others would have given up and died. Although we don't want to be a dirtbag, robbing murderer like Platt, if someone shoots, stabs or slashes us, we want to FIGHT LIKE HIM. It's really that simple.

He died because he did not believe he should fall.

This goes to Old Wive's Tales of .45 Autos "knocking people down" or "making them fly backwards..." It's nonsense and easily explained.

The Owner of Second Chance, a Manufacturer of Bullet Resistant Vests, once stated, "It is your reaction to the bullet and not the power of the bullet that makes you jump up in the air or fly backwards. If someone sticks you in the ass with a pin [needle-stick-pin] it is not the power of the pin causing you to go up in the air, it's your reaction to it."

This also goes to Preprogramming, if people think they are supposed to go down, jump up in the air or fly backwards 7 feet into a wall when they are shot, it is quite likely that will happen! It's psychological programming.

That's why I'm against Preprogramming myself or anyone else to believe we are going into shock upon being cut or stabbed. It is, of course, possible...but it does not have to be that way in many cases. Medically speaking, you have not lost enough blood to go out, which means the shock you are in, you are placing yourself into it. It's really that simple.

That's why I don't want to be programmed to "go into shock" as soon as I get hit. If I believe that, it won't matter that my wound(s) were survivable or not, I'll be dying because I think I'm supposed to be in shock.

I know this is alot of information to digest, I just wanted to put my argument on a firm, Medical footing instead of relying on any other thing including my own altercations I have been involved in.

Shock before 20% blood volume loss [Newgard], in my opinion, is more psychological than anything, therefore, why would I want to impact myself in a negative fashion by demanding and preprogramming myself I will go into shock?

Many thanks to Dr. Walter Welch who was an invaluable resource in doing my research from time to time over the past three years. He passed away just a few weeks ago and he is missed.

[arnisador]

This is a fascinating discussion of obvious interest to those in the FMA. I too have long heard it both ways--"If you get cut you'll go into shock" and "People do amazing things on adrenaline and/or drugs" and it is contradictory.

My guess is that a good cut is very likely to end a fight, shock being just one reason, but there's nothing that says "Please leave me alone" like a broken leg. Structural damage--that's what I've always liked about the karate philosophy. An unarmed man with a broken leg simply cannot fight. As Mr. Rearic points out there's much to be said for vascular damage too especially in a knife fighting context--a man without blood flowing in his veins cannot fight either.

[Don Rearic]

Arnisador,

"A straight leg is a broke leg." :D

[Ms J]

Don, seems like you and i tend to agree and everyone else here mostly, and why i flat out teach newbes in self defense and awareness, and my new students that come for FMA class about the blade being flat out unpredictable, facing it and a realty based deal again is totally un predictable, and if your going to face the knife then get trained so you understand the full scope and realties of what you will face, granted.... this will not save your life necessarily, but for heavens sakes it will give them a little edge when facing it... i make sure to give them all the education, stats and information i can so they can at least understand how unpredictable it is as well... i dont just tell them one sided views to be sure. i tell them all the views and all the odds and all the possable case senerios that i can come up with when educating them.

I like you have faced the bladed weapon and from a very young child, and i like you started training and becoming familiar with the blade so i could deal with it on a level that gave me at least more of a success rate when having to save my life...

The problem i had as a child and no doubts it is what saved me then when i was still scared of the blade is that when i was being threatened with it or cut with it as soon as i would feel the knife touch my skin i would go ballistic, and totally sort of go ott to the point of not remembering a lot of what i did to get away and survive... i did not like either place first being under the knife and then having no control of what my body and mind were doing when facing the shock... when i started getting use to the blade, and then training seriously in self defense and so forth... things changed greatly for me on a long term and positive bases.

I have a number of scars from childhood, but... i thank god that i was smart enough to force myself at the age of ten to learn to face the knife... the last time i actually took a serious cut from the knife in a confrontation or live blade training was when i was 15...
serouse meaning more then slices and nicks...

Since then i have faced it a number of times but i have managed to get the hell out alive and in one piece. And i totally credit the facing of the weapon the first few times untrained to getting some training and becoming familiar with it to saving my life and managing not being cut seriously again since then...

Education and awareness can go a hell of a long way when your smart enough to make the hard knocks count and do something about it...

Now here is the funny thing and you will all laugh, my students laugh all the time as well, i cut myself with a knife at least once a month when cooking or doing dishes...

There is a reason though, i born with rheumatoid arthritis, and my small motor functions in my fingers and joints are not good for very small detail cutting of food... now if i could hold the knife in an ice pick or saber grip to cut food and wash knifes i would not get cut lol....

One of the things i do actually to keep and improve the motor functions i do still have, is work with the balisong, for the past 10 years i have been doing breathing and healing modalities wile working the knife to control the swelling in my fingers and joints each morning... it takes me at least 30 min of morning work with my hands and the Bali to be able to even type, write or hold small things without pain and swelling...

But it works and it helps and i again thank god for it because the Bali is the first knife i took to as a kid of 10... that training and the realties of why i took up that knife has given me a huge positive outcome from the huge positive nasty past now in my life to help me control what is normally a life time debilitating disease...

My FMA students laugh at me hard to be sure but, i do try and explain it to them when they see me coming in with Band-Aids and tape over my hand from being cut cooking and cleaning lol...

At first, they thought that i was training dangerously and getting into knife fights in Philly on the weekends for fun. I was the one laughing then....

Ms. J...

The old fat and slow healer that heals through the arts...

[Don Rearic]

That's funny you mentioned the Balisong, I was just telling a Local Knife Dealer last night that I use Balis to work the knots out of my hands FROM typing. That's rather odd... :D

Download this and see the Trainer I picked up last night, they are relatively new from Benchmade.

[Ms J]

Odd? nawwwwww i think its way cool...

some day if i you want and i am ever down your way i can teach you some very awsome healing breathing methods that i do with the work in the mornings with the bali...

its actully quite amazing this breathing method and was taught to me by one of my master instructors in Austrialia...

its based on a healing method taught in china and used in there hosptials for dying cancer patiotents for pruifacation of blood and for pain controll..

Ms. J...

[arnisador]

...when a fistfight will turn into a knifefight:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2002/06/11/youth_assault_ap/

[arnisador]

In this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12139) at E-budo there are some interesting points being made, plus mention of Bram Frank and the Gunting, Kelly Worden and his knife and videos, and so on.

[Wes Idol]

If you believe you are going to get cut, you are now putting it in your mind to accept a cut. The outcome will be what it will be, but I will always go into altercations (as I have in the past) with the mental decision that I will not get cut. I invite you to read "The Book of Five Rings" by Musashi. It is not a long book, but there is some great teaching about mental preparation and execution.

Respectfully,
Wes Idol

[arnisador]

I understand about the mental preparation. Realistically, though, isn't it very likely that you will get cut?

[Kiwi]

Is it possible to focus on not taking a cut while still knowing that in all probability you will take one (or several) and then... being mentally prepared to continue despite taking it?

Do these concpts go together or do they conflict?

[knifeman.dk]

It all depends on "the unknown" factor. You do not know what will be the outcome of the situation before it is ower. You can prepare your mind and maybe overcome cuts and injuries. But you don´t know for sure unless you try it.
If you teach, train og play with a knife or bladed weapon you also know that it is not possible to practise fully with sharp weapons. It is all in the mind .... which means that the attacker must belive that he/she will cut you up! Do you actually want to play with this mind.
I tried to write some thoughts on this at: http://www.knifeman.dk/Psyko/psykouk.html
I do not consider it fullfilled and would appreciate your opinions also on the spelling/grammar:D

:asian: sincerely knifeman.dk

[ace]

><

[redfive]

If you go into any situation with a poor attitude, then you will most likely perform poorly. The good thing is that you wont be disapointed with a bad outcome becouse you expected the outcome to be bad. If you get into a knife fight and expect to get cut, well that is a bad attitude to me, and the wrong one to have. To me it is more of a possibility then a certainty. Everyone seems to give to much credit to the doped up crack head loosers, who probably did not make it through the seventh grade, who happen to have a knife. Once again if the bad guys are so bad ass, then we need to train with them. If you face a knife or any weapon you should not be thinking about the latest statistics or what the psychologist say you should be or not be thinking. Or if you get cut your going to go into shock and all that other mental crap. Use good timing, close the distance jam him up. And screw the guy up. If your afraid of a knife and afraid of getting cut, then you will loose, and you will hesitate. That will get you killed. You have to engage the knife. If you wont to control it, that means getting close. You should train with live blades as much as possible, and get used to actualy blocking and grabing the opponents arm. Then throwing low kicks and hand strikes. People seem to always say ," I don't wont to train with real knives, I might get cut". Well then you are in the wrong line of training, and need to go take ballroom dancing at the school down the street. You train like you fight and you fight like you train. If you dont have faith in your skills or training, then you need to look elsewhere. And you have to have the servival mindset. If you get cut, then get over it and hurt the guy twice as hard. Or girl for that matter. Pissed off women always seem to find a knife. My father and my best friends father both did two tours in Vietnam and have seen more hand to hand combat then I ever will in my life time. (I hope). Neither one of them had any formal martial arts training or advanced knife fighting training, yet they servived many confrontations. My father was stabed. He still fought and did not go into shock and all that other medical B.S. terminology. My friends father was shot twice and kept fighing. It's all in the mind. If you have the will to live and tap into your true killer self, then you will servive a knife fight. You may not even get cut. But you must be committed in your attack and defence. If running is an option, then do it. Use your environment and throw stuff at him. Gain a little time and distance and pull your knife out. Maybe he reads all the stuff people say about knife fighting, and will piss his pants and run?

Your friend in the Combat Arts, Redfive

[Wes Idol]

I have seen people get shot in the chest with small 20 cal. rounds and continue to leap over a table and pound on the gunman, before getting beating from behind by others. A very close Marine friend of mine shared of man who was stabbed clear through his throat, but still retained the strength and will to pull out a weapon and gun down the stabbing Marine (a platoon member of my friend).

Make no mistake about the severity of your intent, your spirit. It will invade your mental focus and decide the body’s actions. In my mind, I will not get cut, and I am committed to killing you if you come to kill me. Having this commitment and belief has saved my life against knife attacks in the past. As I am committed to the ultimate end (on this physical plane), I not only have a multitude of choices in regards to degrees of actions, I also now know my attacker cannot produce any intent greater than mine.

Once again for anyone who has not, read "Book of Five Rings."

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

[arnisador]

The current issue (#18) of W. Hock Hocheim's CQC Magazine has a story by Mr. Hocheim about the reverse grip. He makes the point that there are numerous cases of the person holding a knife in the reverse grip accidentally stabbing themselves while wrestling for control of the knife. He considers this an advantage of the saber grip but also states that there is a time and a place for each grip.

(See also this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1062).)

[redfive]

Hocks right. Both grips have there place, plusses and negatives. I like the saper grip, even at close quarters. If you have issue #15 of the CQC, I'm the guy on the left, on the front cover. You cant see it on the cover, but my right hand is pinned to my chest by Jeff's left hand. but in the saber grip I still have the tip pointed at him. I could thrust my body forward into him and deliver a real good stab. But in the reverse grip I find that you have better leverage with the blade to deliver a release from a hand grab or pin. and you can us it as a pry bar, hooking and pulling the body in.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

[Shadow Hunter]

Training with a mind set that even if you get cut you will continue on is a good idea.

Training with the idea of letting the other guy cut you so you can get a cut in is a stupid idea.

Training in such a manner that you do not expect the other guy to collapse after you stab or slash him is a great idea. How many scenarios seem to stop as soon as the first cut is made? People don't just collapse after being cut, so why stop at the first cut when you train?

People tend not to feel a lot of pain until after the fight. As Don Rearic pointed out, most folks do not know they have been stabbed until they see their own blood- then they faint. It is a dead issue to deal too much on the subject.

Since this thread touched on ASP batons, I will point out some tips.

If you do not want to destroy your bag, or can't afford a traiingn bag, an old tire lashed to a tree works well.

Don't use cheap copies. Even hitting something lightly with one causes them to bend. Go with quality like the ASP brand and not cheapies made in Taiwan.

ASP batons can and do bend under extreme circumstances. Street fights can generally be considered extreme circumstances. :rolleyes: I have an associate who is in law enfocement who keeps a bent ASP baton on his desk. The guy he used in on was under the influence and trashed an entire store before he went down. I think he was int he hospital for months afterwards, but that did not help my friend who was staring at the bent peice of metal in his hands.

[Wes Idol]

Shadow-,

Your post regarding the reaction of a cut is one that I fully agree with. I have seen cut and slashed attackers keep attacking. I do feel that cuts should be accompanied with strikes.

Certainly there is a train of thought that if you have the extra physical space and security that no one else will attack from your 6:00, one could continue to cut and move until the enemy begins to fade from blood loss. I personally do not fully trust this strategy, but honor it's merit.

As I posted in the begining, I concur with your begining thoughts on the cut.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

[Shadow Hunter]

Thank you Wes.

I have seen people keep going after even increadible amounts of damage. In one of my early jobs a guy got stabbed in the kidney from behind in the classic method of taking out a sentry. Instead of going down, he started running across the field.

So I look at classes where you stab the guy once in the drill and stop with a sneer. I know it looks bad to show people to just go beserk on someone and stab them again and again, but that is what it takes in reality to kill them with a knife. Stab them, take them to the ground, keep pumping the knife in and out of the guy until he stops struggling. Not a pretty picture, but knife fights aren't like the movies.

[Kenpodoc]

This thread contains a lot of good information. The gist of it is that peoples responses to trauma are extremely variable and that in some circumstances people can keep going long after one would expect them to collapse. Human beings are an odd combination of extremely tough and fragile at the same time.

Jeff

[Ric Flair]

You guys forget to mention that when facing multiple opponents with knives and weapons, you stand less of a chance of not getting killed. The chances of you getting stabbed and not just cut are greater. Remember that the knife can be an extention of the users arms and thus, all one has to do is sneak up behind you and jab you in the back with the knife while you are busy dealing with the chaos. The person's reach would be slightly or greaty increased depending on the length of the weapon... Eventually with so many knife jabs from different people in various parts of your body, you WILL feel the effects of their efforts. You may still put up a fight or a struggle but ultimately you stand a good chance of dying of your wounds...

That is why serious training and reality based preperation is important yet, even then you will not always be sure of the outcome.
Expect the possibility of death in such conflict...