Religion VS.Art

[terryl965]

In the thread Christian Martial Arts somebody said should religion be a part of TKD, well leys go a head and ask this question should any religion really be a part of any art? I know for me religion should not be in the Dojaang, my beliefs are just that mine and should not be dictated to my students. I know alot people believe it should be, but lets ask why? What give you the right to pearch your views about religion to the student you are training? I do talk about Tenets but do not fell them being the same.

[dancingalone]

It's surely up the individual. Both one's practice of religion and art (even the drawing type) are very personal expressions. So there is no right or wrong answer.

That said, the idea that martial arts and religion are separated to begin might be a fallacious statement to start with. As stated in the other thread, many martial arts/physical exercise forms were either designed by their creator to have religious aspects to them or they acquired them over time.

aikido: Omoto
Japanese karate: Zen Buddhism
Shorinji kempo: Buddhism
yoga: Hinduism

Granted, many today practice these arts without the religious aspects, which indicates it is a personal thing as I first stated.

[FearlessFreep]

I've often said that people train in martial arts for one or more of five reasons

1) Self Defense
2) Fitness
3) Sport
4) Spirituality
5) Art

Each person has their own reason or reasons and all that really matters is that your school meets your needs in that area.

I happen to be a Christian. I happen to train with a Christian instructor. A lot but not all of the students happen to be Christian, but it doesn't really come up in the class

[Carol]

Religion can be something that brings people together at a gathering place, I don't have much of an issue with adding martial arts to the mix any more than I would have an issue with a sightseeing tour.

However, there are some aspects to such an arrangement that bother me. Many churches have been talking about attracting men and bringing men back to the church...some are doing so in a way that excludes, or even denigrates women. I do not care for exclusionary practices.

If the martial arts group was outside of a church environment, personally I am fine with how openly a person practices their faith, as long as everyone's expectations are set in the beginning. If the MA school is just a front for a hard-sell in to the instructor's religion, then I have an issue with that. If the instructor is devout and says people of all faiths and backgrounds are welcome that is fine with me. If the instructor's actions don't match the words, that's not so fine with me.

Its not a big concern of mine. I think most people are quite reasonable with this kind of thing.

[StudentCarl]

Whether you like your art straight or with a side of spirituality and/or religion should be up to you, and the menu should specify how the art is offered at each school.

Some people mix their religion into their academic education by choosing religious schools, and many attend public schools where religion is separate. I don't have a problem with either as long as the religion-free version is available. I don't believe in compulsory religion.

[granfire]

Personally, I like to think Religion is private. But I have been burned by the fakes abound.

Unlike most religions bhuddism does not exclude other teachings. It is more spiritual. Now spiritual, that I can dig.

Martial arts are just not born out of religious spirit - of the Western type.
IMHO, to inject that into the Arts is really overdoing it.

[tellner]

Granfire, that depends entirely on which version of Buddhism you're talking about. Some are very doctrinaire and exclusive.

[Gorilla]

In the thread Christian Martial Arts somebody said should religion be a part of TKD, well leys go a head and ask this question should any religion really be a part of any art? I know for me religion should not be in the Dojaang, my beliefs are just that mine and should not be dictated to my students. I know alot people believe it should be, but lets ask why? What give you the right to pearch your views about religion to the student you are training? I do talk about Tenets but do not fell them being the same.

Terry,

If a Master wants to have a Christian Oriented Dojang that is his/her right. I am a firm believer that everyone has the right to choose and attend a Dojang that exposes certain religious beliefs. This is a personal choice. My personal choice would be not to attend a religious based Dojang. I agree with you! I do not want to push my religious beliefs on people and I really don't like it when they push their beliefs on me.

[AndrewKFM]

As I said in that thread,

"The Sell Team of the USCDKA teaches the importance of developing into a “Whole Man.” This “Whole Man” consists of strength in body, mind, and spirit. The Sell Team philosophy is that when a person becomes enraptured in the conditioning of their mind and body, they grow much stronger than by training just one or the other. However, with all of their strength they will soon notice a void in their lives, an emptiness that all the physical conditioning and education in the world cannot fill. This is where the strength in spirit comes into play. The only thing that can fill the spiritual void in our lives is Jesus Christ. To reach our full potential in any area, we must condition our body and mind, as well as our spirit."

Sr. GM Sell says no one in his classes are forced to believe anything, but the teaching is a part of it.

[igillman]

As long as they advertise what they are I see no problem with it. If someone wants to be a Tae Kwon Do, Knitting and Ditch Digging school I have no issue with it just as long as I know before I sign up what we will be doing.

Mixing religion with anything is always touchy, you tend to turn off more people than you turn on and I would worry about where the focus of the class lies. Is it Tae Kwon Do with Religion or is it Religion with Tae Kwon Do. You could call it the "Kick to Prayer Ratio".

[Brother John]

What allows an "art" to exist?
It's artists that give it expression.
Should religion be a part of the 'art'? No.
But every facet of the individual need not be truncated from their every endeavor. So I think at times we see religious sentiment or beliefs expressed within the expression of the artist's art. ( hope that made sense )

I don't think that religion should be an integral part of any martial art.
But with many people, religion IS an integral part of THEM...so you may find shades of it in their art.

Good thing to think about though.

your Brother
John

[Miles]

But with many people, religion IS an integral part of THEM...so you may find shades of it in their art.

Wonderful way of expressing how I feel about this topic. Thanks!

[granfire]

I don't think that religion should be an integral part of any martial art.
But with many people, religion IS an integral part of THEM...so you may find shades of it in their art.


There are many things that are an integral part of me but you won't find broadcast in a Dojang.
They might find an expression in what I do there. But it won't make me a 'soandso' martial artist, I'd still be a TKD person.

But as experiences vary so does one's expression...

[Brother John]

There are many things that are an integral part of me but you won't find broadcast in a Dojang.
They might find an expression in what I do there. But it won't make me a 'soandso' martial artist, I'd still be a TKD person.

But as experiences vary so does one's expression...

I think I understand where you're coming from granfire..
but I'm not saying the by finding shades of ones religious beliefs w/in their art that anything gets 'broadcast' persay...
but as a for instance, I know a fine martial artist who declined to train with bladed weaponry based on their religious beliefs. He said "As a Christian, I don't believe I should take another person's life. Blades make it difficult to avoid death as a result, so I choose not to train in or use them."

So if anyone asked why THEY don't participate in the 'knives' section of the training time and instead use that time to hone their empty hand OR blunt weapons...they would learn their 'Christian" rationale. It's not that anything was broadcast, but neither is anything 'hidden' or removed. It's just a fact that his religious beliefs play a large role in what he chooses to do. I don't think that's too uncommon. The congruity is refreshing.

It doesn't make him a "Christian-Martial Artist" or his art a "Christian Martial Art"...but it does make him a Christian who is a martial artist.

Hope you see what I'm saying.
Have a GREAT day...

your Brother
John

[granfire]

I think I understand where you're coming from granfire..
but I'm not saying the by finding shades of ones religious beliefs w/in their art that anything gets 'broadcast' persay...
but as a for instance, I know a fine martial artist who declined to train with bladed weaponry based on their religious beliefs. He said "As a Christian, I don't believe I should take another person's life. Blades make it difficult to avoid death as a result, so I choose not to train in or use them."

So if anyone asked why THEY don't participate in the 'knives' section of the training time and instead use that time to hone their empty hand OR blunt weapons...they would learn their 'Christian" rationale. It's not that anything was broadcast, but neither is anything 'hidden' or removed. It's just a fact that his religious beliefs play a large role in what he chooses to do. I don't think that's too uncommon. The congruity is refreshing.

It doesn't make him a "Christian-Martial Artist" or his art a "Christian Martial Art"...but it does make him a Christian who is a martial artist.

Hope you see what I'm saying.
Have a GREAT day...

your Brother
John

You make a great point.

I realized after readin and re-reading what I wrote that I might need to practice more discipline with myself when I am tired and irritated and maybe step away from the keyboard.

I really think my believes have been tainted by living in the Bible Belt and being bombarded with 'good Christian people' everyday. Sometimes the gag reflex is really close by.

Now on the other hand, in other areas you let somebody know you are a Christian, where it not as common as shopping at Walmart, it carries more weight IMHO, somewhat of the warrior spirit, to do what you think is right even if it's not mainstream or easy.

But I guess I just need to excuse myself from discussions were my rebel urges to light a bonfire and dance around it under the light of the Full Moon just because it would cause a shock in my dear neighbors. ;)


I really don't mean to offend people (not here in this context, anyhow) but some people just don't get it how sticking their religious believes into other peoples' faces is rude and offensive. Not to mention they decry it when others do it, but see nothing wrong with themselves now...

[terryl965]

One thing is I do not believe religion belongs in TKD, with that being said G.M.Sells does incoporate alot of religion into his art and that is fine it works for him and his people. I have meet him and can appreciate what he brings to his brand of TKD. I believe religion belongs in Church and you home, no job or receational events should have that as part of it. Yes I am very religous but know where and when it should be.

Let the comments begain.

[SahBumNimRush]

I believe, that many of the aspects of most TMA's parallel aspects of many religions. The tenants, principles, virtues, and personal development create room for a spiritual spark. I think that from this aspect, some are drawn to make parallels from their own religions. Albeit that many of these TMA's were originally taught with Asian religious overtones (Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, etc.. .), ALL religions strive for a similar 3 goals: 1. resolution of grief over ones past 2. understanding how to live ones life in the present 3. Overcoming FEAR of death. The principles of TMA's lead a person towards an honorable path to deal with #2, which IMHO, is where many people draw this parallel.

I believe this parallel between the principles of TMA and #2 are great, and they may bolster ones faith. However, it is entirely different to draw conclusions of #1 and #3 from martial arts, that is overstepping what TMA is, IMHO.

As stated in previous posts, IF a dojang is upfront about how it conducts itself, I see no problem with a "religous dojang," but it is not my cup of tea. I do, however, touch on the Confucian and Buddhist philosophies that alot of the Moo Duk Kwan tenants and traditions are based on in some of my black belt classes. If my students wish to draw comparisons to their own spiritual path, I believe that is a powerful thing (just not my job).

[Balrog]

In the thread Christian Martial Arts somebody said should religion be a part of TKD, well leys go a head and ask this question should any religion really be a part of any art?
I don't think so. That's not based solely on my agnostic, anti-organized religion views, but on practicality.

For example, in my school, I have learned from casual conversations that I have at least one agnostic, two devout Catholics, a family of Muslims, a Protestant and a Baptist, among others. If I tried to throw religion into that mix, I'd have my own version of the Crusades out on the floor and I don't need that.

[Steven Craig]

Personally I like to keep my belief and my TKD separate. I have steered away from other forms of MA that incorporate other beliefs/religions that are different to mine.
I would be happy for religion to be left out of where I train. Even if the person I train under is of other is of a Christian belief, there could be significant differences in practice between say Catholic and Prod. However, if an organization offered it to a youth group or ran it from the Church and was open and honest about incorporation of their beliefs into the teaching, then those who choose that option, particularly if there are clubs that don't incorporate religion into it in their local area, then that is the individuals business when they join-isn't it?

[tellner]

How many people here are completely comfortable with an American school that makes Islam part of its martial arts?

Honest show of hands, please.

[tellner]

For the record, I study with a very devout Christian. The class includes atheists, Pagans, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Catholics and Protestants. Everyone is a grown-up. Nobody uses it as a soapbox, least of all the teacher. That's the way it should be. People do say "Merry Christmas", "Good Yom Tov" and "Eid Mubarak" to students of the appropriate religions on holidays because it's polite.

[dancingalone]

How many people here are completely comfortable with an American school that makes Islam part of its martial arts?


Don't they exist already? I thought some of the Black Kenpo Federation dojos back in the day had some Muslim elements to them or at least they had many Muslim members.

As for the level of ease or unease with them, that really depends on the person asked as well as the context of the school itself. I wouldn't be thrilled about a TKD school that promotes the Taliban's version of Islam, but I would have nothing against a inam teaching TKD at his mosque, similar to how many pastors have the same arrangement at their churches.

[tellner]

Don't they exist already? I thought some of the Black Kenpo Federation dojos back in the day had some Muslim elements to them or at least they had many Muslim members.
The BKF has a lot of Muslim members. But it has at least as many Christians. And the BKF doesn't endorse or espouse any religion.


As for the level of ease or unease with them, that really depends on the person asked as well as the context of the school itself. I wouldn't be thrilled about a TKD school that promotes the Taliban's version of Islam, but I would have nothing against a inam teaching TKD at his mosque, similar to how many pastors have the same arrangement at their churches.

Then you are a much better American than most of the people wrapping themselves the flag and a fair section of the people here on MT who view Islam and all Muslims as terrorists.

[dancingalone]

The BKF has a lot of Muslim members. But it has at least as many Christians. And the BKF doesn't endorse or espouse any religion.


I have heard that some of the dojos back in the day had a strong Muslim recruitment angle along with a empowerment theme. I don't doubt organizationally this might not be an overall goal of the federation itself.

[tellner]

I have heard that some of the dojos back in the day had a strong Muslim recruitment angle along with a empowerment theme. I don't doubt organizationally this might not be an overall goal of the federation itself.

I had an interesting talk with one of the founding members, Cliff Stewart. The BKF was formed for a very simple reason: racism.

Back in the day predominantly White Karate organizations would not accept Black members cf. Men of Steel Discipline. White and Asian racism just wouldn't permit it. And the rules for the big circuits were set up so members of an organization never fought each other in the first round. Guru Cliff recounted that Black competitors could be guaranteed to fight each other for the first round or two, knocking most of them out for the later rounds.

He and a couple friends were sitting around his kitchen table one night and decided "Why don't we form our own organization?" That's how the BKF started. A number of the schools were run by people with strong Nation of Islam ties. A bunch of the mold-breaking first Black anything in those days was run by people connected to the NOI. And yes, the NOI was big on recruiting. Many of them became Orthodox Muslims of one sort or another later on and lost the NOI missionary fervor.

Of course, the NOI was only doing for Blacks what pretty much every Evangelical Christian sect does for the whole world and what the more reprehensible members do for Whites.

[SahBumNimRush]

Very interesting Tellner, I confess I know little of the Kenpo ciruits of old or of late.. . But I can vouch for the traditional TKD circuit of old and of late. Some of the greatest TKD fighters of the late 60's and 70's were black. Mike Warren, Albert Cheeks, Joseph Hayes, John Holloway, Archie Coles, William Felton, Gerard Robbins, Dennis Robinson, Terrance Watson to name a few.. . These guys were all on either the first or second EVER TKD national team.

I know that digresses from the OP, but just thought I'd throw my .02 in on that comment Tellner. The only overt racism I have ever seen in the my small piece of the TKD world really is Korean vs. ALL us round eyes.. . haha

[Bruno@MT]

I think Religion should be treated just like politics or sexual preference or or things during MA practice: Leave it at the door. You can talk before class and after class, but during class it doesn't exist.

Since we are in a TKD forum let's use that as the example: what differentiates 'Christian' TKD with the regular kind? surely the techniques are the same, as are the rules, grading requirements (if applicable) etc. I really don't see how you could make TKD 'Christian'

The only thing I could see it happen is the teacher using his classroom as a soapbox to spread his personal beliefs which have otherwise nothing to do with the art.

[tellner]

It's not just a soapbox. The teacher who does this is using his authority to encourage people to listen to and share his religious beliefs. People who wouldn't otherwise sit there and listen to the sermon or pray the prayers do so out of politeness and respect for his position as a martial arts teacher.

[SahBumNimRush]

It's not just a soapbox. The teacher who does this is using his authority to encourage people to listen to and share his religious beliefs. People who wouldn't otherwise sit there and listen to the sermon or pray the prayers do so out of politeness and respect for his position as a martial arts teacher.


I want to reiterate that I am not an advocate of mixing the two. That being said, there is a difference, IMHO, how it is conducted. If there is a dojang down the street that doesn't label itself as anything other than a TKD school, and once you sign up, you realize it is religion + TKD.. . Well that would certainly turn my stomach, and I firmly believe the two have no reason to be mixed together in that type of setting.

However, if a mosque, church, synagogue, etc.. . chooses to incorporate a martial arts program, I see the parallels that CAN be made between the code of ethics, moral culture, and self-discipline that is taught in the martial arts and the proper "spiritual" path most religions preach. IMO, that would probably get in the way of good training, but that's why I don't participate in schools like that.

If a school down the street openly labels itself as "kicks for Jesus" or whatever, so be it, who cares? It's pretty obvious it is a mix of MA and Religion before you even step foot through the doorway.

Again, I want to make clear I do not like the idea of mixing the two, but that's my personal belief. I just don't see it as wrong, as long as people know what they are getting into before they sign up.

[Bruno@MT]

It's not just a soapbox. The teacher who does this is using his authority to encourage people to listen to and share his religious beliefs. People who wouldn't otherwise sit there and listen to the sermon or pray the prayers do so out of politeness and respect for his position as a martial arts teacher.

That would be 'abusing' in my book. He is using his authority in an unrelated area to make people listen to / conform to his views in something that has nothing to do with MA.

I respect my teacher(s) a lot, and outside of the dojo I don't mind having long conversations with him to discuss politics, religion or whatnot (though my sensei and I are remarkably like minded) but the second he would assert his MA authority to e.g. make me listen to him or share his religious belief is the second I walk away and don't look back.

It is even in our rules that politics, religion, business etc stay outside the dojo, and IIRC you can get thrown out for bringing them in. Using power over people to foist beliefs on them is low. If people voluntarily sign up for both, then that's ok. More power to them for doing something they feel good about. But if they sign up for one and the sensei abuses his authority to force the other on them, that would be a low thing to do indeed.

And even then, it would NOT be christian TKD. It would be TKD + bible classes.

[Carol]

It may also help to see a bigger picture. There is a significant movement that decries modern church, esp. Protestant services as "too feminized", and therefore to blame for men not attending.

http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/why-men-stay-away-from-the-feminized-church/
http://www.churchformen.com/formen.php
http://pambg.blogspot.com/2009/02/feminized-church-devalues-men.html

And as a result, many are turning to martial arts specifically to attract men, combining that with a message that the man must be the dominant person in the household (and the woman must be the submissive).


“The man should be the overall leader of the household,” said Ryan Dobson, 39, a pastor and fan of mixed martial arts who is the son of James C. Dobson (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/james_c_dobson/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the founder of Focus on the Family (http://www.focusonthefamily.com/), a prominent evangelical group. “We’ve raised a generation of little boys.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/us/02fight.html

IMO its pretty easy to see what is being sold.

[Bruno@MT]

And as a result, many are turning to martial arts specifically to attract men, combining that with a message that the man must be the dominant person in the household (and the woman must be the submissive).


Well...

Any man trying to convince my wife that she has to be submissive will probably require good self defense skills :D So learning TKD for such 'men' is probably a necessity.

[Carol]

Well...

Any man trying to convince my wife that she has to be submissive will probably require good self defense skills :D So learning TKD for such 'men' is probably a necessity.

Yes dear.

[Ken Morgan]

Well….being submissive or dominant each has their own time and place, and each has the ability to be fun…. :angel:

[granfire]

Well….being submissive or dominant each has their own time and place, and each has the ability to be fun…. :angel:

oh, grappling......

[Carol]

Just not when the minister is looking. They might not approve of pre-marital grappling.

[granfire]

Just not when the minister is looking. They might not approve of pre-marital grappling.

And now I need a new keyboard....




^_^

[Bruno@MT]

Yes dear.

Usually that is my line...

[Traditionalist]

I am Buddhist and when I was growing up in my grandfather's school we never discussed buddhism during workouts but we did take time to meditate and reflect at the end. And I guess it was there because he would throw a philosophy at us every now and then. We as kids never took it as teaching buddhism we thought he was just giving us a wise lesson. I have noticed that since I've been in the U.S. that many christians are concerned with other religions being taught in classes (including meditation). I have never thought of meditation as religious its just a way to connect to oneself and to reflect. I have even seen schools advertise themself as christian taekwondo or christian martial arts. I guess as long as you let everyone know what you are doing then it okay.

[Tez3]

I think the way we look at religion in the west is vastly different from the way it's look at in the east. Here it tends to be a very separate part of peoples lives so it's possible to 'leave it at the door' of whatever activity you are doing. Religons/beliefs such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc however seem to be much more a way of life than just a religion you pick up and leave when you want. it's inbued in every part of life so there's far less need to make such a big deal of it, it's part of the ebb and flow of life.
Christianity with it's call to convert and spread it's belief system seems to mean people do get themselves tied up into knots perhaps more than religions which don't try to convert. Perhaps there's less anxiety if you don't care what your neighbour believes.
Your beliefs and morals should be with you always, not just when you decide they are useful and dumped when you don't want to abide by them, they should be entwined in your very fabric of being, in every breath you take, this means you can do anything anywhere and still be true to yourself, it doesn't mean however you shout about them and try to persuade everyone to believe in the same as you.
People worry so much about how things 'seem', if they don't go to a Christian TKD class are they going to be less of a Christian? Are they going to be more of a Christian if they go to a religious MA class? Do people have so little faith and so much doubt that they need to constantly reinforce their religious beliefs by talking about it all the time with like minded people? No, this should all be internal, in your bones as it were so there's no need to make such a song and dance about what religion you are ( or not in some cases!) Just train.

Thus said Krishna the Enlightener: " The world is imprisoned in it's own activity, except when actions are performed as actions of G-d, therefore you must perform every action sacramentally, and be free from attachment to results." Bhagavad-Gita

[Kyosanim]

It's surely up the individual. Both one's practice of religion and art (even the drawing type) are very personal expressions. So there is no right or wrong answer.

That said, the idea that martial arts and religion are separated to begin might be a fallacious statement to start with. As stated in the other thread, many martial arts/physical exercise forms were either designed by their creator to have religious aspects to them or they acquired them over time.

aikido: Omoto
Japanese karate: Zen Buddhism
Shorinji kempo: Buddhism
yoga: Hinduism

Granted, many today practice these arts without the religious aspects, which indicates it is a personal thing as I first stated.

This is a GREAT point and a very enlightened attitude.

[The Boar Man]

In the thread Christian Martial Arts somebody said should religion be a part of TKD, well leys go a head and ask this question should any religion really be a part of any art? I know for me religion should not be in the Dojaang, my beliefs are just that mine and should not be dictated to my students. I know alot people believe it should be, but lets ask why? What give you the right to pearch your views about religion to the student you are training? I do talk about Tenets but do not fell them being the same.

Terry

But religion is in the dojan/martial art training halls all over the world.

1) What is sacrificing a chicken and pouring blood over the initiate with the shaman as depicted in the episode of Human Weapon on the FMA but a religious ritual?

2) Ueshiba sensei who created AIKIDO got the idea for his martial art from a religious experience on top of a mountain. And Aikido was his expression of that experience translated into martial or physical techniques and principles. (More on Aikido from the book referenced in point 5.)

Pg 194 "Like Kano, Ueshiba saw obvious problems in propagating a combat-oriented art and decided that the higher ideals of a martial way or -do were better suited to the 20th century Japanese society. In 1938, there fore he began to teach his new "way of divine harmony" or aikido" "A sophisticated understanding of the nature of Ki or vital force, a concept called chi in Chinese...is central to aikido. Indeed the concepts on which Ueshiba drew are directly descended from the great neo-Cofucian schools of Chinese philosophy.....Ueshiba formulated his school of aikido along classic lines. He placed perfection of techniques in conjunction with the sophistication of mind and spirit in the student...


3) What is the the whole theory or belief systems based on dim mak, pressure points etc. etc. but a religious belief system? How often have we taught or heard the terms "Strong conquers weak and hard destroys soft" or "Fire defeats wood, metal defeats wood, Water defeats fire etc. etc." I apologize if I get these out of order but my point is this comes from Taosim thought.

4) The use of the tattoed spells on the Filipino warriors arms or legs to keep them safe in battle and skirmishes.

5) Referring to the Indian martial art Kalaripayit in "The Fighting Arts by Reid and Croucher pg 38 " The are fewer elaborate altars to the HIndu gods in the southern training grounds, although students of both styles must perfrom salutations to both their martial gods and goddesses, and their masters, before training. A whole pantheon of gods is associated with the kalari, but the principle figure is Kali, goddess of war."

6) Same book pg 148 on Bushido "Many centuries after the foundation of the school (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu) Zen Buddist influences affected the Japanese martial arts......the Japanese warrior committing himself to primarily to following a path aimed at spiritual development through martial training. The effectiveness or otherwise of that training in combat became of secondary importance."

7) Same book speaking of Kyudo (way of archery) pg 185 "Today, these customs are practiced in accordance with the teachings of Zen Buddhism....Eventually, even the use of the halberd, various types of staff and other medieval weapons was transformed into quasi-religious activities in which perfection of form rather than function became the ultimate goal."

My point being that much of what is taught today in the TMA is based on religious thought and principles that were brought into the martial arts 100's of years ago and sometimes much more recent like the modern Japanese arts.

Arts that we hand down as martial ways have been corrupted by the influences of Zen Buddism and other Eastern religious thought where form is more important than function, or expressing a way of blending with my opponent or developing KI as a viable method of self defense instead of beating the **** out of the assailant.

Now it seems that some people can bash a Christian instructor who may or may not promote his/her faith to their class, and they not or may not even promote their class as a "Christian" class in TKD and yet the rest of this is totally accepted.

You might say "I'm teaching a martial art not a religion" but are you? I had a pressure point instructor once tell me that as a Christian and he qualified it, that he was a Baptist deacon, that he found no problem with studying the five element theory as it related to pressure points and acupuncture and such to further his study in pressure point application for katas, bunkai etc. etc. So as a Christian I thought well this guys knows what he is doing, and he is a Deacon, and to be a Deacon he must be a knowledgeable guy right? Cool I'm going to learn pressure point fighting YEEHAW. Until I read the material he recommended and a Christian brother and I debated what I was reading against the bible and then well as a believer I couldn't go down that road. But this "Christian Baptist deacon" was promoting another religion under the guise of pressure point study.

For the record I do believe that any instructor should teach martial arts and not martial religion in class. However I believe the Christian who says I'm teaching a martial art based on Christian principles up front is honorable even more so now when I looked into this other stuff. Likewise if I wanted to study Indian martial arts and I had to bow to their gods and goddesses than that is up to me, but no one should tell them that they don't have the right for to have me do it if I want to be their student.

I mean no disrespect here and I know this is a long post, I'm not trying to bash any particular style/system/or religious belief. Dancing alone's post stated basically what I believe and how I started this post out, but with the point being that religious expression is found in all arts across the globe, however as I was looking for back up (references) I kept running across the concepts of the eastern thought and I saw how much of it relates to really what I believe many of us teach but maybe not with that purpose/influence.

Mark

[Brother John]

It's surely up the individual. Both one's practice of religion and art (even the drawing type) are very personal expressions. So there is no right or wrong answer.

That said, the idea that martial arts and religion are separated to begin might be a fallacious statement to start with. As stated in the other thread, many martial arts/physical exercise forms were either designed by their creator to have religious aspects to them or they acquired them over time.

aikido: Omoto
Japanese karate: Zen Buddhism
Shorinji kempo: Buddhism
yoga: Hinduism

Granted, many today practice these arts without the religious aspects, which indicates it is a personal thing as I first stated.
One of those arts you mention stands out to me as different.
Aikido has a strong relationship with Omoto, but one can delve to it's depths and never adhere to Omoto. (MY opinion)
Japanese Karate: I disagree.
Yoga: Not a martial art, but yes...designed not AS a religion, but very much a 'side car' to Hindu-ism.

Shorinji Kempo is the only one (To my knowledge) has religion as an inherent feature. It has Kongo-Zen as it's underpinning and IS itself registered and recognized AS a religion in Japan.

Your Brother
John

[dancingalone]

Aikido has a strong relationship with Omoto, but one can delve to it's depths and never adhere to Omoto. (MY opinion)


Yes, I did say it was a personal decision to practice the religious ideals or not, as one pleases.



Japanese Karate: I disagree.


Not sure how you can. Concepts such as mushin no shin have found their way into many Japanese martial arts including karate and kendo. They came from Zen.

If you want to say the karate YOU are familiar with does not use ideas like mushin or fudoshin or etc., that's fine.

[Tez3]

Yes, I did say it was a personal decision to practice the religious ideals or not, as one pleases.



Not sure how you can. Concepts such as mushin no shin have found their way into many Japanese martial arts including karate and kendo. They came from Zen.

If you want to say the karate YOU are familiar with does not use ideas like mushin or fudoshin or etc., that's fine.

But are they particularly religious ideas or are they more philosophical? The idea of being charitable is mentioned in many religions but is also thought to be something intrinsic in human beings.

I don't believe the martial arts were designed to have religious aspects in them at all, I think those aspects are there because the people creating those arts have the aspects with them all the time.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am neutral to the idea.

Being of a Christian persuasion (Catholic), I would have no problem training at a Christian studio, provided that the primary focus of the studio was the teaching and training of martial arts.

By the same token, I am equally comfortable in non religious studios or studios that have a distinct religious flavor other than that of Christianity. I train for the physical skills. My spirituality is a part of my martial practice, but in an internal, personal way. I do not make overt religious expressions in class as a student and I do not make it a part of my lessons when I teach.

I think that there is a segment of the population that has a need for a "Christian dojo," so such studios meet a legitimate need. There is a segment of the population that enjoys watching golf. I am not part of that segment. I choose not to watch golf, but I think that it is great that the games are broadcast so that those who do enjoy golf can do so.

The only time that I would have an issue with an overtly religious studio (regardless of the religion) is if they were not up front about it. I want to know going in that religion is an integral part of the class. Then I can decide if I want to train there or no.

But so long as everything is up front, I see no problem with it. If you don't like that kind of school, don't train there. I don't see why people see it as an issue.

Daniel

[dancingalone]

But are they particularly religious ideas or are they more philosophical? The idea of being charitable is mentioned in many religions but is also thought to be something intrinsic in human beings.


Everyone wants to dance around it, but Zen is definitely a sect of Buddhism. The goal within Zen like all Mahayana sects is to become a 'living Buddha' through introspection and other means.

Many Westerners like the various meditative ideals and practices within Zen so they've latched onto those aspects while ignoring the rest which are somewhat incompatible with Christianity or other religions. This is perfectly acceptable to me, but I'm always bemused by the idea that Zen itself is not religion. That really depends on how one thinks and practices it. Certainly it was a religion at one point and still is to many.



I don't believe the martial arts were designed to have religious aspects in them at all, I think those aspects are there because the people creating those arts have the aspects with them all the time.

Well as mentioned above, you would be incorrect with respect to aikido and shorinji kempo. They were expressively designed by their creators to have distinct links to the religion their founders follow.

[Brother John]

Not sure how you can. Concepts such as mushin no shin have found their way into many Japanese martial arts including karate and kendo. They came from Zen.

If you want to say the karate YOU are familiar with does not use ideas like mushin or fudoshin or etc., that's fine.Oh, I see what you're saying.
Concepts like you mention do have their origins in Zen, that's true. But I view those things more as very late additions that were brought in by some. Those concepts (and those like them) are much more prevalent in arts like Jujutsu and Kenjutsu, Kyudo...etc. To my way of thinking, the way they're applied in the martial arts is more like "psychology" than as a religious expression. But you are correct, such concepts are found in Karate-Do; and they did originate in Buddhism.

Your Brother
John

[Tez3]

Everyone wants to dance around it, but Zen is definitely a sect of Buddhism. The goal within Zen like all Mahayana sects is to become a 'living Buddha' through introspection and other means.

Many Westerners like the various meditative ideals and practices within Zen so they've latched onto those aspects while ignoring the rest which are somewhat incompatible with Christianity or other religions. This is perfectly acceptable to me, but I'm always bemused by the idea that Zen itself is not religion. That really depends on how one thinks and practices it. Certainly it was a religion at one point and still is to many.



Well as mentioned above, you would be incorrect with respect to aikido and shorinji kempo. They were expressively designed by their creators to have distinct links to the religion their founders follow.


I don't see anyone avoiding the subject and I was just asking!

I believe we are thinking about religions in a western way ( obvious really lol being westerners) with it's separations from everyday life. The reason I think that martials arts weren't formed with religion in mind specifically is because I think religion to the orignators of martial arts would be a far more every day thing. They would no more have left religion out of anything they did than they would have stopped eating or sleeping. They weren't secular peole who said right this martial art is going to be based on this religion, no, I think they naturally enfolded their art with their religon as they would have done everything else.

[dancingalone]

They weren't secular peole who said right this martial art is going to be based on this religion, no, I think they naturally enfolded their art with their religon as they would have done everything else.

That's probably true. At the same time, the various articles and interviews written by people who actually trained with Ueshiba or Doshin Sho show they were very much concerned with promoting their belief systems. Whether you want to call it religion or philosophy, it's still nonetheless true that both men EVANGELIZED to their students and associates.

Here's a quite good article about religion and aikido that may help reconcile the seeming dichotomy. It essentially says something to the same effect you do, but it connects the dots for us too. For Ueshiba, the practice of aikido was very much also one of his own religious experiences. So, the two were irrevocably linked in his conception of the art.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=2

It is sometimes said that aikido is not itself a religion but that aikido practice ‘completes’ or ‘complements’ religious beliefs and practice. I wonder whether this typically Japanese way of thinking does not bear traces of the Omoto-kyo idea described above. The idea that aikido practice complements one’s religious activities is harmless enough, but this is quite different from the notion that a religion like Christianity, for example, or Islam is somehow ‘incomplete’ and that a martial art, albeit one based on love, will somehow bring it to perfection. I would not expect the average Christian or Muslim to take kindly to this way of thinking. There is also a problem of terminology. It might well be true that aikido is not a religion in the strict sense of a body of people united by the same beliefs about the divine, but the Founder clearly considered that he was engaged in an activity which was, to all intents and purposes, religious.

[Tez3]

When you say evangilised though, what religion were the students to start with? May it have been a case of perhaps widening the knowledge students already possessed and clarifying the beliefs they already held?

I suspect that the Japanese don't compartmentalise the different parts of our lives the way we tend to, perhaps seeing life as a whole. It may explain too their very long working day!

[dancingalone]

When you say evangilised though, what religion were the students to start with? May it have been a case of perhaps widening the knowledge students already possessed and clarifying the beliefs they already held?


I'm sure he had students who were Shinto, Buddhist, Christian, and atheist. Omoto is generally considered to be a Shinto off-shoot, and both religions are hard to describe at least for me. Certainly neither are monotheist faiths like Christianity is.

Ueshiba is mentioned in several accounts as quoting or reading frequently to his students from the writings of Onisaburo Deguchi, the Omoto Kyo founder. Evangelism is practice of relaying information about a particular set of beliefs to others who do not hold those beliefs, and I would imagine his instruction included a fair measure of that, particularly because Aikido is more than just physical fighting techniques.

[Tez3]

I'm sure he had students who were Shinto, Buddhist, Christian, and atheist. Omoto is generally considered to be a Shinto off-shoot, and both religions are hard to describe at least for me. Certainly neither are monotheist faiths like Christianity is.

Ueshiba is mentioned in several accounts as quoting or reading frequently to his students from the writings of Onisaburo Deguchi, the Omoto Kyo founder. Evangelism is practice of relaying information about a particular set of beliefs to others who do not hold those beliefs, and I would imagine his instruction included a fair measure of that, particularly because Aikido is more than just physical fighting techniques.



I have visions of students flying through the air, landing heavily on the tatami to the accompanying readings!!

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's probably true. At the same time, the various articles and interviews written by people who actually trained with Ueshiba or Doshin Sho show they were very much concerned with promoting their belief systems. Whether you want to call it religion or philosophy, it's still nonetheless true that both men EVANGELIZED to their students and associates.

Here's a quite good article about religion and aikido that may help reconcile the seeming dichotomy. It essentially says something to the same effect you do, but it connects the dots for us too. For Ueshiba, the practice of aikido was very much also one of his own religious experiences. So, the two were irrevocably linked in his conception of the art.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=2

It is sometimes said that aikido is not itself a religion but that aikido practice ‘completes’ or ‘complements’ religious beliefs and practice. I wonder whether this typically Japanese way of thinking does not bear traces of the Omoto-kyo idea described above. The idea that aikido practice complements one’s religious activities is harmless enough, but this is quite different from the notion that a religion like Christianity, for example, or Islam is somehow ‘incomplete’ and that a martial art, albeit one based on love, will somehow bring it to perfection. I would not expect the average Christian or Muslim to take kindly to this way of thinking. There is also a problem of terminology. It might well be true that aikido is not a religion in the strict sense of a body of people united by the same beliefs about the divine, but the Founder clearly considered that he was engaged in an activity which was, to all intents and purposes, religious.

I don't know. That way of thinking does not bother me at all. The foundational principles of Aikido practice actually mesh quite well with Christianity. On a superficial level, it enables one to 'turn the other cheek' in such a way that one is not just standing there as a punching bag, but is not returning violence with violence.

Daniel