RE: RyuShiKan - Hero or Zero?

[D.Cobb]

Mr. Hubbard you are a spanker. If it wasn't for the limited amount of good info I can find here, I would quit. Unfortunately, I was too late to put in my vote, but as a moderator you have crossed the line. As you said in your thread you are entitled to your opinion, but as an administrator, you don't have the right to publicise it.

Yes Robert is blunt and to the point, but if that is a problem for you, then why didn't you just kick him out? You continually tell us all to show respect to each other and then you come out with this bull$hit poll.

I think maybe you should quit. Admin/ moderator is obviously tooooo hard a job for you.

And that is all I have to say to you!
Good day sir.
--Dave
:soapbox:

[MartialArtist]

I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was deleted and/or locked so somebody has to get the last word in.

[Bob Hubbard]

Daves entitled to his opinion.

So is MA.

Why don't one of you 2 put up a poll and see who wants me to step down. Actually, I'll do it for ya.

1 question...

If I do quit....

Who gets the website?

[MartialArtist]

Did I state that I wanted to oust you out? Nah. You're doing a good job as it is.

However, one suggestion that I have for the website is... I'll PM it

[Bob Hubbard]

MA.
Got it. I'll reread it in the AM. Been a long day, so I'm a little loopy. Thanks! :)

[D.Cobb]

Maybe you didn't get the point I was trying to make, and that was for all your blustering about respect and doing the right thing, you are as ego driven as anybody else on this board.

You don't even carry out your disciplinary actions according to your own rules, and have shown that time and again with numerous posters, not just RSK.

It wasn't that I wanted you to quit, I was trying to say that as an Administrator/ moderator, your opinions aren't/ or shouldn't be public knowledge. It is just one of the many down sides to your job. Even if it were ok to publicise your opinion, then surely you could have done it with a little more civility and decorum.

You have posted that you wanted this site to be like someones loungeroom, with no huffing puffing or inflating of chests, and without anyone having to duck unfair attacks. Then you start this ridiculous post against RSK.

Ok I admit I am a bit biased, I do tend to look upon Robert as a friend, even though we have never met. I originally found him hard to deal with too, but I guess by examining his motives, I have found him to be both honest and respectful. You may not think so and that is your right. But I must say, if you were sitting in my lounge room and started something like that poll, I would personally turf you. This is your lounge room, but I still think you are wrong.

--Dave

[Zepp]

I don't come to this site to pick fights, so this will be my only post on this thread.


Originally posted by D.Cobb
Yes Robert is blunt and to the point, but if that is a problem for you, then why didn't you just kick him out? You continually tell us all to show respect to each other and then you come out with this bull$hit poll.

:soapbox: Maybe the poll on Ryushikan was mean-spirited, but he had it coming. Maybe finding out how others see him will encourage him to get the help he needs. Alright, so it probably won't. But banning him outright would have been much less fair. Ryushikan worked very hard to create the environment of persecution that he became a victim of. His being blunt and to the point was never an issue. (MartialArtist is blunt and to the point, but we like him.) His being a tactless keyboard warrior who went out of his way to pick fights was the issue. Leaving was his choice.

Bob Hubbard is a Martial Talk administrator, not a judge or arbitrator. Impartiality is not a trait that is required of administrators. Especially not when when they administrate for free.
:soapbox:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Zepp
I don't come to this site to pick fights, so this will be my only post on this thread.



:soapbox: Maybe the poll on Ryushikan was mean-spirited, but he had it coming. Maybe finding out how others see him will encourage him to get the help he needs. Alright, so it probably won't. But banning him outright would have been much less fair. Ryushikan worked very hard to create the environment of persecution that he became a victim of. His being blunt and to the point was never an issue. (MartialArtist is blunt and to the point, but we like him.) His being a tactless keyboard warrior who went out of his way to pick fights was the issue. Leaving was his choice.

Bob Hubbard is a Martial Talk administrator, not a judge or arbitrator. Impartiality is not a trait that is required of administrators. Especially not when when they administrate for free.
:soapbox:


So you consider it to be OK for frauds, liars and cheats to spread their wares via these forums? If it wasn't for guys like Robert, then guys like me would never find out. Or we'd find out the hard way. I never saw him go out of his way to pick fights, he just seemed to insist on honest answers to insightful questions.

Free or not is beside the point. And like I said, even if it was ok, then he could do it a little more repectfully.

--Dave

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
So you consider it to be OK for frauds, liars and cheats to spread their wares via these forums? If it wasn't for guys like Robert, then guys like me would never find out. Or we'd find out the hard way. I never saw him go out of his way to pick fights, he just seemed to insist on honest answers to insightful questions.



--Dave

I dont get what is wrong with everyone....NO-ONE HAS EVER SAID THEY WANT FRAUDS RUNNING AROUND THIS PLACE! Never, ever! The problem was not that Robert was going around houding them out etc, it was the way he did it and the fact that HE DIDNT STOP! Its the same with Moromoro. He wasnt banned because of what he was saying half the time, it was the WAY he went about it.

[Bob Hubbard]

Couple of points as I said my bit in the 'vote' thread:

Frauds - they will be weeded out eventually. It was never the weeding, just the methods.

Robert - He was not banned. Also, please do not attack him as he is not here to defend himself.

MoroMoro - he was banned due to his attitude, and other issues.

Dave - He, like everyone here, is entitled to their opinions, and is allowed to express that opinion as long as it is within our policies.

Me - Reality check recieved, and I will seek to improve the areas I agree on. 1 thing - I will be being more vocal in my opinions in the future. The key is seperating my opinion from being able to administer from a neutral position. Even if I think someones a major butthead, I try my hardest to give them the benifit of the doubt and chances to 'fit in'. Some boards will boot you if you slam the 'boss'. This board doesn't work like that.

Whenever I am required to administrate this site, I do my best to leave my personal feelings out of the equation. I have in the past refrained from voicing my thoughts until other staff have looked at the issues and given theirs. I do my best to be fair. I am only human though, and at times, my frustrations will show through, esp. in the hotter issues when theres a few hundred posts to review, all parties are burying you in emails, the fights still brewing and everyone involved is screaming 'Do Something".


:asian:

[KanoLives]

:deadhorse


Not this again. :mad:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
So you consider it to be OK for frauds, liars and cheats to spread their wares via these forums? If it wasn't for guys like Robert, then guys like me would never find out. Or we'd find out the hard way. I never saw him go out of his way to pick fights, he just seemed to insist on honest answers to insightful questions.

Free or not is beside the point. And like I said, even if it was ok, then he could do it a little more repectfully.

--Dave


If you don't like it, start your own forum.

[arnisador]

I was away when the poll was done. (I was traveling out of the country on business and was gone for nearly two weeks.) I agree with D. Cobb that administrators must respect the privacy of members--which we try very hard to do--and that the poll regarding RyuShiKan was at best in questionable taste.

On the other hand this was a very special case, and things were spiraling out of control. I am continually shocked and disappointed by how many martial artists refuse to grant us the simple courtesy of applying the same "It's your dojo so I'll follow your rules while in it" attitude they'd take if they were on the floor while I was teaching.

We've discussed the matter internally. It was a tough situation no matter what was done. As always, we hope to improve our procedures and learn from it. Threads like this help us do that, and help keep us honest, and we appreciate it. Mr. Cobb is doing nothing more than asking us to do what we say we do and be what we say we want to be and that is very welcome. There's no sarcasm here--I mean it 100%. Constructive criticism is always welcome. Thank you Mr. Cobb for trying to help us improve and thanks to you and everyone who tries to understand that we're doing our best in what is a more difficult job than people realize.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[MartialArtist]

I don't think RSK started any fights. He didn't say, "Who here claims that they have a high rank" and so forth. He acted after one person made a questionable claim.

[A.R.K.]

Was not there a history of suspensions?

Was there not a history of warnings?

Was there not a history of locked threads only to have a new one started?

Whether the poll was right or wrong is now a mute point. The percentages did indicate overwhelmingly there was a problem in the areas of attitude and approach.

Dave, if you wish to think of him a honest and respectful that is entirely your right. There are many who would respectfully disagree as is our right. The key word is respectfully. I bid you peace.

The RSK chapter is closed, why reopen it? There is a wealth of information on this board and quit a few folks with friendly attitudes in which to converse with.


:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

As a person who was privy to some of the behind the scenes info for a while. I saw how anytime RSK was asked politely to tone it down some he became beligerent with who ever asked him to do so. He incessentaly tried to bullythe moderators and admins into his way of thinking. He drove many beginners away, they were afraid of incurring his wrath. The guy had some very good information but it was noth worth the BS that had to be put up with to get it. Yes hemade friends here, and I know they still communicate on other forums and that is great. But at Martialtalk, he often acted like an ass when dealing with the staff.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Was not there a history of suspensions?

Was there not a history of warnings?

Was there not a history of locked threads only to have a new one started?

Whether the poll was right or wrong is now a mute point. The percentages did indicate overwhelmingly there was a problem in the areas of attitude and approach.

Dave, if you wish to think of him a honest and respectful that is entirely your right. There are many who would respectfully disagree as is our right. The key word is respectfully. I bid you peace.

The RSK chapter is closed, why reopen it? There is a wealth of information on this board and quit a few folks with friendly attitudes in which to converse with.


:asian:


Like you say, RESPECTFULLY, is the key. I was just trying to point out the discrepancies between what Mr. Hubbard wants from us and then what he did in front of us.

Hindsight being what it is, I probably could have worded the thread starter a little better, and would like to apologise for the comment about Mr. Hubbard being a spanker. However for the rest, I don't think I was wrong. It wasn't even so much, that he had an opinion, as I've said before, but how he aired it.


--Dave

[Bob Hubbard]

Just so its clear, as far as I'm concerned, everythings cool between Dave and me.

I try to do the best I can, but I'm only human, so sometimes slip up. When that happens, I expect to be called on it the same as we would call any member.


:asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by arnisador
I was away when the poll was done. (I was traveling out of the country on business and was gone for nearly two weeks.) I agree with D. Cobb that administrators must respect the privacy of members--which we try very hard to do--and that the poll regarding RyuShiKan was at best in questionable taste.

On the other hand this was a very special case, and things were spiraling out of control. I am continually shocked and disappointed by how many martial artists refuse to grant us the simple courtesy of applying the same "It's your dojo so I'll follow your rules while in it" attitude they'd take if they were on the floor while I was teaching.

We've discussed the matter internally. It was a tough situation no matter what was done. As always, we hope to improve our procedures and learn from it. Threads like this help us do that, and help keep us honest, and we appreciate it. Mr. Cobb is doing nothing more than asking us to do what we say we do and be what we say we want to be and that is very welcome. There's no sarcasm here--I mean it 100%. Constructive criticism is always welcome. Thank you Mr. Cobb for trying to help us improve and thanks to you and everyone who tries to understand that we're doing our best in what is a more difficult job than people realize.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Thank you for your kind words sir. But in hindsight, maybe I could have worded my post a little better too.

--Dave
:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Rather have a 100 fraud busters (RSK did not go out of his way to hunt people down unless they made a claim first) or RSKs than one fraud.

[John Bishop]

Well, RSK's gone and some of the frauds and liars are still here. Make's no sense to me.:mad:

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Well, RSK's gone and some of the frauds and liars are still here. Make's no sense to me.:mad:


Maybe it's because they were given protection by the moderator.
I read a few topics on here and it looks like people can say anything and nobody is allowed to ask them about it.

So if that is the way it goes I am a 50th dan and have a magical death touch.........but you can't ask me to back it up because it won't be friendly and I can cry to the moderator that you are being mean to me if you do ask.

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
As a person who was privy to some of the behind the scenes info for a while. I saw how anytime RSK was asked politely to tone it down some he became beligerent with who ever asked him to do so. He incessentaly tried to bullythe moderators and admins into his way of thinking.

Yes and I got to see some of the emails he got from the moderators too.
I wouldn't really call them polite. I was also told by Ryushikan that certain moderators and exmoderators here are not very educated martial arts people and some are obvious fakes.



Originally posted by Rob_Broad
He drove many beginners away, they were afraid of incurring his wrath.

Who did he drive away? Which beginner?
From the looks of it he drove away some fakes too.


Originally posted by Rob_Broad
The guy had some very good information but it was noth worth the BS that had to be put up with to get it. Yes hemade friends here, and I know they shemade friends here, and I know they still communicate on other forums and that is great. But at Martialtalk, he often acted like an ass when dealing with the staff.

He still has more good information too.
It looks like your main dislike for him was you didn't like the way he treated you. I got to see some of the emails and messages that moderators sent him and I think it's a two way street.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
Who did he drive away? Which beginner?
From the looks of it he drove away some fakes too.

That's not a trade we're prepared to make.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
I was also told by Ryushikan that certain moderators and exmoderators here are not very educated martial arts people and some are obvious fakes.

I don't find it hard to believe that he would say such a thing.


He still has more good information too.

You seem quite enamored of him.

[Master of Blades]

Is it me or didnt Robert ASK for his account to be removed? Like he has a few times before.......Doesnt that just kinda END this convo :rolleyes:

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by arnisador
I don't find it hard to believe that he would say such a thing.



You seem quite enamored of him.


He is one of the best teachers I have ever had and also one of the best karateka technicians I have ever seen.

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
Is it me or didnt Robert ASK for his account to be removed? Like he has a few times before.......Doesnt that just kinda END this convo :rolleyes:


He is not here but people keep talking about him on new topics so it doesn't really end the conversation.

[Master of Blades]

Is Robert your teacher or was he before?


Note: Edited the post after being informed that others HAD mentioned RSK before Mr Cobb. My apoligys :asian:

[Master of Blades]

Well looks like I aint getting a reply anytime soon so I just wanna say one more thing before I get taken off stage.

"I can only show you the path, you have to walk down it"

One of my favourite qoutes, and I have no idea who said it. My over all problem with Robert was that he proceeded to walk us down AND give us the guided tour of the path. Thats just my problem with him, but I do know that others felt he didnt do it in the correct way.

And before another person says it NO I DO NOT IN ANYWAY WANT FRAUDS AROUND HERE! I just dont disagree with the lack of respect shown by both sides.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
Yes and I got to see some of the emails he got from the moderators too.
I wouldn't really call them polite. I was also told by Ryushikan that certain moderators and exmoderators here are not very educated martial arts people and some are obvious fakes.




Who did he drive away? Which beginner?
From the looks of it he drove away some fakes too.



He still has more good information too.
It looks like your main dislike for him was you didn't like the way he treated you. I got to see some of the emails and messages that moderators sent him and I think it's a two way street.


First off whats posted on this board for all to see is different than an e-mail or private message.

There were only a chosen few people whom he thought were not fakes.

I have been a member on this board long enough to see quite a few people leave do to the not so friendly manner of wich some did business here RSK being one, but I have yet to see one person who he has attached leave.

I feel that RSK has alot to offer to this board, he just had a bad approach on his "fraud busting campaign" not to say wether those he attached were or were not frauds, there is always a better way to skin a cat.

Last but not least he is not here right now to defend himself and I for one think that D.COBB was wrong to bring up this subject AGAIN without at least having him here to defend himself.
:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:

[Rick Tsubota]

Yes Ryushikan is my teacher since 1990.

In Okinawan we have a saying:

"good medicine always tastes bad"

It means the truth hurts sometimes. So I think a lot of the people that were angry maybe got too much truth for them.

Ryushikan is the same in real life. If someone says something stupid like "I can jump over this building" He will say "OK do it".
Ryushikan is very old style way of doing martial arts, not too much talking just doing.
After seeing some articles here it looks like too much talking and not enough doing by some people here.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
Yes Ryushikan is my teacher since 1990.

In Okinawan we have a saying:

"good medicine always tastes bad"

It means the truth hurts sometimes. So I think a lot of the people that were angry maybe got too much truth for them.

Ryushikan is the same in real life. If someone says something stupid like "I can jump over this building" He will say "OK do it".
Ryushikan is very old style way of doing martial arts, not too much talking just doing.
After seeing some articles here it looks like too much talking and not enough doing by some people here.

You could be right but the way it was done could have been a little different!
:asian:

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
You could be right but the way it was done could have been a little different!
:asian:


I am confused. Why does anyone have to be nice to someone who is lying or saying they can do somerthing or are something when they really aren't?

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
I am confused. Why does anyone have to be nice to someone who is lying or saying they can do somerthing or are something when they really aren't?


Its not that they would have to be nice just post your opinion and proof and or observations then let the readers decide for themselves, dont follow them from one thread to another stalking them and prohibiting them to have discusion with others on unrelated subjects.

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Its not that they would have to be nice just post your opinion and proof and or observations then let the readers decide for themselves, dont follow them from one thread to another stalking them and prohibiting them to have discusion with others on unrelated subjects.


If they lie here and lie there or keep lying shouldn't someone say something?

[Seig]

Ok Rick, let's put it this way, who appointed him the internet/martial arts police? I never said he didn't have good information. I also know he had good intentions in trying to debunk frauds, a noble goal, I also know that I personally got tired of seeing him go after people in EVERY SINGLE thread. It got old, and as a result, just like I do because of certain frauds, I began avoiding that entire forum. Now, you may be asking, "why should I care if people avoid forums?" Let me answer it this way, if it were not for the friendships I have forged on this board with some damned fine martial artists, I woud no longer sponsor or otherwise try to support this board. If all the sponsors started feeling this way, what then? The fact is, there always has been and always be frauds in the martial arts. Which of the moderators or ex-mods are frauds? None, some may have been blow hards, and some may have been beginners but none have been frauds.

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Seig
Ok Rick, let's put it this way, who appointed him the internet/martial arts police?

Nobody. Does someone need to?
I think the same people he questioned never gave a exact answer.
They only seemed to answer the question he asked but not really and used the moderator for a defense weapon when they got in trouble.

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Seig
Which of the moderators or ex-mods are frauds?

Maybe if I answer then I get a poll done on me too.

[tshadowchaser]

I answered him . He may not have liked the answere or he may no have ageed with my answeres but i answered. I was the last one he attackd because he didn't like the fact that I teach japanese stances along with chinese stances and opn "no stance", along with what many call fillipino stances, and showd some of these on a web ite he went balistic.
My history is on my web page and the web page of my insructor gives a background of our system as far as we car to give it. admitedly it only goes back 50 or 60 years on the site. If RSK (Robert ) or anyone else, think I am a phoney for not teaching what he/they like or thinks should be taught in a Fillipino system,so be it, that is/was his/their oppion and he/they is/are entitled to it. My certificates have been around for longer than most have studied.
As I have stated befor every system/style started somewhere at some time with someone doing somethig different than their instructor that is not an indicator of being a phoney but of a difference in teaching methods.
As has been said by more than once it is not faud busting that gets anyone in trouble. It is the stalking from thread to thread and the manner in which it is done. One or two questions asked , then answered or not, then another question is one thing. !1-15 questions thrown out at one time is a diffeent and when every answere to them is questioned it becomes an interagation.
Most people on this forum are tired of the bAD BUDO coming into all the threads and haveing to read dribble . The arguments in the threads outweighs the news and information that is not the way it startd and not what the intention of the forum should be. Hell this thread is has turned into that verry thing.
on a personal note I think there should be a seperate forum called Fraud Busters if anyone you can think of cares to start it

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
Maybe if I answer then I get a poll done on me too.

Actually, I'm interested in the answer to this question myself Rick.

And, no, you won't get a poll done on you......:rolleyes:

[Jill666]

Dave started this thread, and his point was taken and peace made. Robert is no longer here. I truly believe this thread should be locked now, and we should move on.

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I answered him . He may not have liked the answere or he may no have ageed with my answeres but i answered.

I read your answers too.
You gave one answer then a different answer.





Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I was the last one he attackd because he didn't like the fact that I teach japanese stances

I read that too, he asked why you use Japanese style of attacking in a philapine martial art.
You have to admit it seems kind of odd, but I don't care what you teach.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
First off whats posted on this board for all to see is different than an e-mail or private message.

There were only a chosen few people whom he thought were not fakes.

I have been a member on this board long enough to see quite a few people leave do to the not so friendly manner of wich some did business here RSK being one, but I have yet to see one person who he has attached leave.

I feel that RSK has alot to offer to this board, he just had a bad approach on his "fraud busting campaign" not to say wether those he attached were or were not frauds, there is always a better way to skin a cat.

Last but not least he is not here right now to defend himself and I for one think that D.COBB was wrong to bring up this subject AGAIN without at least having him here to defend himself.
:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:
:rolleyes: People use the same tactics over and over again.

He never went on a quest. The incident with you and your instructor, THEY MADE THE CLAIM, and he followed up. He doesn't spend his spare time hunting people down by checking everyone's information and so on. If they made an outlandish claim, like you have, he followed up on it. I'm a bit more familiar with and have more connections in TKD, while he had all the information at hand to him with anything Japanese or Okinawan. And yeah, the pen-and-paper certificate that you've been fooled to getting by another TKD man was not even done by a Korean, the handwriting was like an imitation of hangul, kinda how one starts out when making a switching between writing a Latin-based language with a foreign character-based writing system. If you want more information, you can e-mail me.

[A.R.K.]

Martial Artist,

DAC may have received worthless certificates from a former instructor, but his skill is sound. That is the paramount point. And we are ensuring that he receives the due recognition he has EARNED.

And I have ranked him appropriately in ARK based on his MA training, his experience, his LEO background and his teaching ability. He has used these skills in the lawful performance of his duties. That is the highest 'recognition'...going home at end of the shift as you came in.

:asian:

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Martial Artist,

DAC may have received worthless certificates from a former instructor, but his skill is sound. That is the paramount point. And we are ensuring that he receives the due recognition he has EARNED.

And I have ranked him appropriately in ARK based on his MA training, his experience, his LEO background and his teaching ability. He has used these skills in the lawful performance of his duties. That is the highest 'recognition'...going home at end of the shift as you came in.

:asian:

This is why I am confused.
You call it ranks wall candy and then say something like that.

You rank someone but then say it is wall candy.
I think it's strange you rank them for something you think is not important. This means their rank is not important so why do it.

Maybe this is why some people can't respect what you say.
First you say one thing and then different. It makes people think you are a liar if you do this.

I have read your articles and see you talk about rank most of the time, this is also strange.

[A.R.K.]

This is why I am confused.

You call it ranks wall candy and then say something like that.

Don't understand why you'd be having any difficulty here....

'I' do consider rank as wall candy, interesting you would mention that particular phrase which I've used in the past...but not in the quote you posted. Anyhoo :D the post was in reference to someone else.


I think it's strange you rank them for something you think is not important. This means their rank is not important so why do it.

Just because it is usually unimportant to me doesn't mean it is unimportant to them. I have to respect the consideration of my students. And I can tell you that DAC DOESN'T particuarly care about rank, but as he is an Instructor, many students expect to see credentials in addition to his skill. And I think they should, and Instructor needs to be checked out.

Unfortunately most MA's NEED to air their rank for validation. Case in point, I see you have listed yours in your bio. Nothing wrong with this in and of itself I suppose. I personally don't see why unless a person is trying to validate a certain point. To each his own. I don't care about rank and I down play it as often as possible. I feel skill, REAL skill is what matters. That doesn't mean dojo experience or tourny's but the ability to defeat a violent criminal in order to go home to one's loved ones.

But there are those that need organizations to recognize them to feel they have achieved something. I feel people should train to win not compete or gat promoted etc. But we are all different in our views.


Maybe this is why some people can't respect what you say.

Maybe comments such as this is why you were suspect from day one here :rolleyes: And why would I be concerned about these 'few' folks anyway? Those same folks see only what they want to see most of the time anyway...

I've enjoyed this, what to continue? ;)

[arnisador]

This thread is now closed.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-