What Considered "legitimate"

[Disco]

I've done a cursory search with no results found on subject topic.

When reviewing several Organizational web sites, they have stipulated that under membership requirements, any "LEGITIMATE" version of the style of Martial Art being practiced was acceptable.

With the vast amount of styles and off shoots, including MMA, how would you define "legitimate"?
:asian:

[DAC..florida]

I dont think there is a right answer to this question!

The person you are trying to convince is the one who decides what they believe is or is not legit.

Unfortunately people could probably go home and print off thier own certificates give a friends name and phone number as thier instructor and recieve whatever rank they want in repitable organizations.
:asian:

[grimfang]

I agree.

[tshadowchaser]

I'll give two examples:
1 An ex student of mine who had studied the grand total of 3 months leaves , the next time I hears of him ( some 4 months latter) he supposedly is a 2nd degree blackbelt. He worked at a print shop and mad his own certificates and business cards.
2 A friend had legit 3rd degree in TKD he left his instructor in a heated personal argument with verry bad feelings on both sides.
He never studies one single system again but practices for years with friends in several styles. Years later he has a son and starts teaching his son. The son brings in a few friends , and lo and behold he has a school. Now as time goes by he has taught for 12 or 13 years and he wants to promote some one to3rd or 4th degree. What he is teaching is what he learnd in TKD and with everyone he leaned from after. IS he wrong to promoted himslef and his student at this point. What he is teaching is now deffenately his own system .
Now in the first example someon used a print shop for his own gain. In the 2nd a person printed his certificates (those he gave to his students ) on a computer. He never printed one for himslef he simply taught and added to his knowledge.

[DAC..florida]

Disco,

I remeber reading an article in Black Belt magazine about a man who had his pet pig promoted to a 7th degree black belt by creating some bogus certificates, if I remember right there over two dozen organizations that recognized his pigs rank, a few of wich were very repitable. The man did this to prove a point.

My opinion is that anyone can claim any rank they want and its hard to prove wether or not they have earned it.

As an instructor I always tell my students and peers not to judge someones abilities by thier rank or title but by what they can do, I have lost in ternaments and sparing to people who were higher ranks as well as lower ranks and I have also won to both sides.

Back to your topic, I feel organizations are at a loss trying to recognize someones rank they have never met or tested and then attaching thier name to that persons credentials, granted it is hard to bust a fraud and if organizations did this they would probably have to hire some full time staff members and all of thier rates in turn would go up.

[Disco]

tshawdowchaser, This ties in indirectly I guess to several other threads that were / are closed.

The guy that prints for his own use, without training or knowledge is in fact a fraud. I see nothing wrong with the fully trained person issuing for his own students. But now here comes the problem. We'll forget the fraud and just deal with the trained person.

We have been indoctrinated into the status that to be accepted by our peers, we should / must belong to a recognized governing body that represents the particular style of Martial Arts we study.
When that trained person has people that are ready to acheive ranking or the same rank as he now holds, if he dosen't try to enlist the aid of an outside Organization to extend his position / rank, then he must do it himself. Does this unto itself now make him non-legitimate in the eyes of his peers? I understand what DAC has presented (what I can do, not what I have), but unless there is a way for everybody to actually see what you can do, all you can really show is what you have (paper). DAC may be right, mabey there is no answer for this question, but I think there is common ground that could be established

There are those that say the heck with everybody. I know what I know and that's good enough for me. But for the larger majority of people, acceptance from their peers is a normal fundamental trait of human nature.
:asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

When you are dealing with an established organization, there are usually rules on who can promote to what level.

When you are independent, its pretty much up to you.

Some schools run multiple levels, promoting in a school-system localy, then, having some students tested at seminars and camps in the parent organization.

1 kenpo school I attended insisted all students be members of their parent organization. Another didn't, but said if you want a black belt, you must belong at the time of testing.

Some organizations revolk your rank if you don't keep paying dues.


Both the kenpo and arnis communities have used grading boards, with members from many organizations sitting on it and evaluating the testees.


The question arises when you start your own 'style'. Since you developed it, who knows it better than you? Some will say those folks are the biggest frauds. I think they are both right and wrong.

The 'dabbler' who holds and held no rank, has minimal formal training, and little time in, but then starts his own style, is probably a fraud.

The guy who worked through an art or 3, earned rank, then goes off on his own, I don't think he is a fraud. I doubt very highly that anyone would call Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, Remy Presas, Prof. Vee and many other notables frauds. They all had legit backgrounds, but went on to add their own ideas to the mix.

Its a matter of perspective, I think, and on where you draw the line.

:asian:

[Aegis]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Back to your topic, I feel organizations are at a loss trying to recognize someones rank they have never met or tested and then attaching thier name to that persons credentials, granted it is hard to bust a fraud and if organizations did this they would probably have to hire some full time staff members and all of thier rates in turn would go up.

The only time an orginisation should "recognise" a rank is if it's in the style covered by that orginisation AND if they have tested the candidate themselves to that grade. Other than that, they have no right whatsoever to recognise a grade. I don't ask a karate orginisation to recognise my jujutsu grade. Nor would I expect my own orginisation to grant me rank unless one of the grading instructors issued me that rank personally.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Aegis
The only time an orginisation should "recognise" a rank is if it's in the style covered by that orginisation AND if they have tested the candidate themselves to that grade. Other than that, they have no right whatsoever to recognise a grade. I don't ask a karate orginisation to recognise my jujutsu grade. Nor would I expect my own orginisation to grant me rank unless one of the grading instructors issued me that rank personally.

If this were true we wouldnt be having this conversation:asian:

I do agree with you but unfortunately that is not always the case.

[tshadowchaser]

What about the gentelman I mentioned that never claimed any rank other than what was given to him by the TKD group he belonged to. He went on to develop his own style or sub system from that knowlege and never sought out anyone person or group to ive him rank again. Are his students legit at whatever rank he gives them?
At wht point is his new combination style consider legit, 10 ,20 40 years. How many generation of students mut he have to be legit> or is all that is neededis a good press agent?

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Disco,


Back to your topic, I feel organizations are at a loss trying to recognize someones rank they have never met or tested and then attaching thier name to that persons credentials, granted it is hard to bust a fraud and if organizations did this they would probably have to hire some full time staff members and all of thier rates in turn would go up.

Not all true. If your rank is "recognizable" then there should be no problem at all. The problem is rank that can't be traced.

And even worse are the deceivers that pass off the rank they give out as being something that it isn't. Thats the kind of thing that makes the general public to be distrustful of any new organizations.



:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
Not all true. If your rank is "recognizable" then there should be no problem at all. The problem is rank that can't be traced.

And even worse are the deceivers that pass off the rank they give out as being something that it isn't. Thats the kind of thing that makes the general public to be distrustful of any new organizations.



:asian:
Agreed.

The thing with off-shoot organizations and such isn't relevent. It should still be traceable. Say, an off-shoot of TKD came about. Well, even if you're a 10th generation guy, it should be traced back to Korea. If it can't be traced that far back, I would have questions. Look at MMA, with all the branches and such, it can still be traced back. Ken Shamrock's career can be traced back and my understanding was that he has his own organization from the original Japanese one. The rank should be traceable. If one guy in the chain only earned a 3rd dan, but claims a 9th dan, when only his 3rd dan can be proven and traced, then I would start worrying. Him and all the people that follow him are questionable.

[andurilking2]

they are probably refering to orthadox as legit (kung fu, kenpo, judo, ju juitsu, ect)

[andurilking2]

i study an unorthadox form of martial arts and as a result many organizations refuse to aknowlege my former martial arts experience. Ex: even though i have trained for 3 years in tkd and approximately 10 in ryu metso i still when i go to tournaments am announced as a blue belt in tkd (which insults me very much)

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by akja
Not all true. If your rank is "recognizable" then there should be no problem at all. The problem is rank that can't be traced.

And even worse are the deceivers that pass off the rank they give out as being something that it isn't. Thats the kind of thing that makes the general public to be distrustful of any new organizations.



:asian:

I agree 100% with your above statement, but thats not the topic.
The topic here is about legitimate organizations, my only point is that if someone can get his pig recognized at a 7th dan through some very "legitimate organizations" than are they really legit?

Now sure if anyone questioned that rank there is no lineage so of course its fake! And as you mentioned above there are people who do this and this does give the martial arts a bad name in the eye of the general public, I should know I have actually had this done to me.
:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I agree 100% with your above statement, but thats not the topic.
The topic here is about legitimate organizations, my only point is that if someone can get his pig recognized at a 7th dan through some very "legitimate organizations" than are they really legit?

Now sure if anyone questioned that rank there is no lineage so of course its fake! And as you mentioned above there are people who do this and this does give the martial arts a bad name in the eye of the general public, I should know I have actually had this done to me.
:asian:
The founders of the organization should have a traceable lineage. If they claim this and that, and are just very vague as in "I have a 9th dan in karate awarded to me by a great Asian master", then there's something seriously wrong. If they don't want to give their instructor's name for privacy reasons most of the time meaning that there's also something very wrong. People who won't give their lineage but keep on claiming things that takes more than a lifetime of achievement for most people should either shut up or show the world how wrong we were.

[MartialArtist]

Major Turn-Offs:

Usage of the term "soke", super grand master founder @ the age of 20, other titles

Founder(s) claim ranks in arts all over the place such as 9th in jujutsu, 13th in kar-a-tay, 4th in hapkido, 20th in TKD, 2nd in arnis, etc.

Claims that rank doesn't matter, but are utterly obsessed with advertising their ranks.

Sells certificates

Usage of confused terms such as soke as above, mixing and matching Kanji and Chinese characters, Hiragana, Katakana, Korean, and a whole mess of letters. Logos mix and match. You get the point. Usually uses words that make no meaning together.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by andurilking2
i study an unorthadox form of martial arts and as a result many organizations refuse to aknowlege my former martial arts experience. Ex: even though i have trained for 3 years in tkd and approximately 10 in ryu metso i still when i go to tournaments am announced as a blue belt in tkd (which insults me very much)

Why should it insult you? If you only have a blue belt in TKD, why would you expect to be announced as anything but a blue belt? I've studied Judo and Jujutsu for a combined total of over 10 years, but I would expect to be announced as a brown in Jujutsu (I'm a brown in judo and a green in jujutsu), as I haven't taken the appropriate gradings in jujutsu to allow me to be announced as a brown. Hell, I wouldn't even expect another jujutsu orginisation to recognise my grade. It doesn't bother me: if I have to start over I will, and with any luck I'll be able to fast-track through the grades, as I will be looking for a style similar to my own if I can't find a branch of my current style near wherever I end up....

[tshadowchaser]

Lets put this in another perspective. Every art out htere today started with someone doing something a little different than someone else. A student breaks from his instructor or the instructor dies and the student carries on the teaching adding to them in time.
I dont care what art you study it started with someone who did his/her own thing . So if we go by that logic NO ONE IS LEGIT if we listen to some arguments.
Now do I consider some people phoney YES
Do I consider some who have started there own art legit YES
Peter Urban
Ed Parker
Nick Cerio
Kali Griffin
Professor Emperado
these and many more,
Think about it

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
Lets put this in another perspective. Every art out htere today started with someone doing something a little different than someone else. A student breaks from his instructor or the instructor dies and the student carries on the teaching adding to them in time.
I dont care what art you study it started with someone who did his/her own thing . So if we go by that logic NO ONE IS LEGIT if we listen to some arguments.
Now do I consider some people phoney YES
Do I consider some who have started there own art legit YES
Peter Urban
Ed Parker
Nick Cerio
Kali Griffin
Professor Emperado
these and many more,
Think about it
They are legit but why? They can also be traced back.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Aegis
Why should it insult you? If you only have a blue belt in TKD, why would you expect to be announced as anything but a blue belt? I've studied Judo and Jujutsu for a combined total of over 10 years, but I would expect to be announced as a brown in Jujutsu (I'm a brown in judo and a green in jujutsu), as I haven't taken the appropriate gradings in jujutsu to allow me to be announced as a brown. Hell, I wouldn't even expect another jujutsu orginisation to recognise my grade. It doesn't bother me: if I have to start over I will, and with any luck I'll be able to fast-track through the grades, as I will be looking for a style similar to my own if I can't find a branch of my current style near wherever I end up....

Should be "but I would NOT expect to be announced as a brown in Jujutsu"

If a mod sees this, could they edit my last post and delete this one?

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
Lets put this in another perspective. Every art out htere today started with someone doing something a little different than someone else. A student breaks from his instructor or the instructor dies and the student carries on the teaching adding to them in time.
I dont care what art you study it started with someone who did his/her own thing . So if we go by that logic NO ONE IS LEGIT if we listen to some arguments.
Now do I consider some people phoney YES
Do I consider some who have started there own art legit YES
Peter Urban
Ed Parker
Nick Cerio
Kali Griffin
Professor Emperado
these and many more,
Think about it

You are so right!:asian:

[MartialArtist]

For TKD, the authority is Kukkiwon. Have a rank somewhere else, and it's pretty much considered garbage by 99% of the schools out there.

You don't need to belong to an organization to receive a Kukkiwon-issued rank, there's no problem. Kukkiwon is more WTF, yes, but ITF and many ATA and KTA members get their rank from Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon sets the standards for testing, while the branch organizations and/or the instructor can add requirements or raise the bar or do whatever he wants as long as it does not contradict the set requirements by Kukkiwon. Of course, people lower the bar to give 8 year olds a 3rd dan black belt and such and Kukkiwon will never hear of it 9000 miles away, but by they probably won't progress that much more since high ranks are looked upon with closer scrutiny, and the certificates get more and more complex.

[A.R.K.]

The only time an orginisation should "recognise" a rank is if it's in the style covered by that orginisation AND if they have tested the candidate themselves to that grade.

That pretty much wipes out most major organizations like Kukkiwon. Speaking of Kukkwon...


For TKD, the authority is Kukkiwon.

Perhaps....But you don't need to be a member to be a legitimate practitioner/Instructor. Oh, if you want their recognition, yes. If you want to compete in their venue, yes. But not in REAL life such as in a dark parking lot.

Look at it this way, Fred is a Kukkiwon certified Master [4th or above]. Barney is his student and gets promoted to 1st by the authority of Fred [who does have the authority]. Barney doesn't want to join Kukkiwon. Perhaps he doesn't have the extra money, perhaps he doesn't see the point, perhaps he's seen to much of the TKD/Kukkiwon BS to want to be a part of it...whatever. Is Barney not a legitimate 1st Dan?

He was taught by a Kukkiwon master....

He did earn the promotion by Kukkiwon established minimum guidelines......

What if he wants to join the ATF. ITF, WIF, AAU or whatever instead?

Just thought I'd throw that out there ;)

:asian:

[A.R.K.]

Of course, people lower the bar to give 8 year olds a 3rd dan black belt and such and Kukkiwon will never hear of it 9000 miles away, but by they probably won't progress that much more since high ranks are looked upon with closer scrutiny, and the certificates get more and more complex.

And if Kukkiwon is THE TKD authority...how could they allow 8 yr old 3rd degree black belts? Or Korean born grandmasters of 7-8th Dan....in their early 30's? They do have a age restriction....but don't seem to follow it all that closely at times.

And then there is the whole Dan jumping thing...for the right $$$ but thats another story.


Disco, legitimate ultimately means being able to use what you know in real life and go home safe, end of story. Paper, titles and organizations won't be there to step in harm's way for you.

Peace.

:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
And if Kukkiwon is THE TKD authority...how could they allow 8 yr old 3rd degree black belts? Or Korean born grandmasters of 7-8th Dan....in their early 30's? They do have a age restriction....but don't seem to follow it all that closely at times.

And then there is the whole Dan jumping thing...for the right $$$ but thats another story.


Disco, legitimate ultimately means being able to use what you know in real life and go home safe, end of story. Paper, titles and organizations won't be there to step in harm's way for you.

Peace.

:asian:
:rolleyes:

Have you cared to read anything I have posted? I have posted NUMEROUS times, that dan ranks aren't monitored until the higher ranks in the US.

Korean born 7th and 8th dan in their 30s? From Kukkiwon?

And I'd rather have 7th or 8th dan people in their 30s even if it were from Kukkiwon than from a knock-off organization or a 10th dan in his 30s.

[Bujingodai]

This is a funny topic. I left an org some years ago, a legit one. I moved way too far away to continue the path I was going. I met a man that did a different style, a non legit one. He has taught me much over the years. I have also spent in excess of $5G in so many years travelling to different training camps etc.

Now with all this being said I had ended up with some training partners, it grew into more. Utterly an accident that happened but do I consider what I do and what I get taught illegit. Nope, could care less as I am happy.

But I did re enter the org I left as well. I do still train in it under a different teacher, and have since obtained Yudansha in it. It shouldn't matter to me as I also enjoy and love the style I do, but it does.

Those with the most ## write the rules. I would also argue that even the legit orgs that I speak of, have enough of thier own issues that they should concentrate on them, not the independents that just want to train:soapbox:

[A.R.K.]

And I'd rather have 7th or 8th dan people in their 30s even if it were from Kukkiwon than from a knock-off organization or a 10th dan in his 30s.

I'd rather have the one that actually knows what he's doing in a real fight.

MA, I'm looking for your input to the question I posted just above....