Does anyone know to what extent the books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Echanis%2C%20Michael%20D./102-4447365-8711356) on knife and stick fighting by Michael Echanis (http://www.drearic.com/echanis.html) were actually used by the military, to whayt extent and for how long?

I believe they were used to a large degree in the past, but Combatives things in the Military is really geographical. We saw that when discussing Datu Worden.

Michael D. Echanis was and still is, a rather controversial figure in Martial Arts Circles...

There are alot of people in Military Special Forces, of all branches with Special Operations Units, that were exposed to Echanis Material.

I was looking through these books the other night--they remain some of the clearest, easiest-to-follow, best produced martial arts books I've ever seen. I found the arrows on the photos in Knife Fighting most helpful and wish more books did this.

I saw the local USMCR doing CQC training a couple of weekends ago. (They were practicing outside.) I watched for some while. Elbows and knees practiced on a shield held by another Marine, plus shin kicks. In addition I saw them practicing a sideways hammerfist to the body which surprised me a bit. I don't know if this is an approved curriculum or just what the local group is doing.

Originally posted by arnisador

I was looking through these books the other night--they remain some of the clearest, easiest-to-follow, best produced martial arts books I've ever seen. I found the arrows on the photos in Knife Fighting most helpful and wish more books did this.

I enjoyed his books as well. It took me forever to finally come across the deadly "black book" and when I did I found the picture style to be the same as Dr. LaTourrette's Knife fighters book.

The part of the book that was really surprising was the knife throwing out of a front roll (if I remember correctly).

Regards, jb

Originally posted by jbkenpo


Dr. LaTourrette's Knife fighters book.


I have that book--what did you think of it?


The part of the book that was really surprising was the knife throwing out of a front roll (if I remember correctly).


I remember thinking that that was cool too.

I loved it. I'm a little bias of course because my instructor is in it. He's the only Black guy doing the techs with Doc.

But seriously, I thought the techniques were represented well from the pictures although there is some loss in the interpretation when you go from a book as I found out going over them with my instructor. Otherwise it was a good example of how basic and not so basic Kenpo techniques were adapted to the knife.

jb

RE: what the military is doing now with HTH training and blade fighting..
The military simply picks what is in vogue at that time in regards to the popularly "effective" martial arts....lately it's been filipino martial arts and brazilian Jujutsu! So we'll see what time and battle tested technique yeild in regards to answers! Although, i'd hate to be in the mount of the guard when another enemy stabs me!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOEKENPOJOE's Web site (http://meembers.aol.com/KENPOJOE/)
or
REBELO'S KENPO KARATE (http://www.rebeloskenpokarate.com)
:::Getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:

Hi folks!
I started reading this thread and i thought I'd add fuel to the fire!
As many of you already know from his books, Micheal Enchanis's main art was Hwa Rang Do[ the way of flowering manhood], a hybrid korean hybrid art that was brought to this country by Joo Bang Lee and his brother in the 1960's
The method of knife fighting that Enchanis did is now available on video through individuals like Michael Dealba [although I believe he is now doing his own sub system of knife fighting] and I believe through Joo Bang Lee's own series of tapes on Hwa Rang Do from Panther Productions.
I was fortunate to see some of the "sul sa" knife work at a demonstration of Hwa Rang Do in the 1980's.
The blade work seems to be heavily influenced by Chinese "ring Dagger" in regards to it's large slicing actions and inverted traps and catches.
I enjoyed getting the famous forbidden "Black Book" on knife fighting back in the eighties and it is interesting to say the least!
I still find the knife work a little too ...flowery?
:::Getting off my soapbox::::soapbox:
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:asian:
KENPOJOE's Website
(http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/)
or
REBELO"S KENPO KARATE (http://www.rebelokenpokarate.com)

Originally posted by KENPOJOE


The military simply picks what is in vogue at that time in regards to the popularly "effective" martial arts....lately it's been filipino martial arts and brazilian Jujutsu!

I've seen their BJJ--but I haven't seen where they're using the FMA. Can you be more specific?

I too am so-so on Mr. Echanis' actual techniques.

Originally posted by arnisador



I've seen their BJJ--but I haven't seen where they're using the FMA. Can you be more specific?

I too am so-so on Mr. Echanis' actual techniques.

Hi Arnisador!

Paul Vunak's past work with the Navy seals and Leo Gaje's present work with US marines in the Phillipines immediately come to mind! Did you see the pic the associated Press ran of him teaching troops for "Edged Impact Weapons Tactica Combat Training" for the joint military training exercise "Balikatan 02-2" at Ternate,Cavite.

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

I missed that picture--does anyone have a link?

For those of you who have seen Echanis books and would like to see how the techniques looks like in motion - there's a short knife demo at http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm - Knife Preview

:)

Carsten

I watched Navy SEALs (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/navysealsrbrown_a0adb7.htm) today and the review cited contained this:


A group of former Navy SEALs from the original '62 group sat behind me at a preview screening and had a high time loudly identifying weapons and explosives. They found a few flaws in some technical areas: Some of the splash landings were fudged, and there was apparently "not enough killing with knives."

From what I understand (following an interview some time back with Joo Bang Lee) is that Echanis's Hwarang-Do training was very minimal; in fact, he had almost no training in it at all. He conspired with Lee to do the book and Lee agreed to name him as a high-ranking Hwarang-Do practicioner.

The original text was a bit too gruesome for the publisher and a lot of material was removed or changed. The publisher felt that the public might not respond well to a book that emphasized too much blood and gore.... Time's have changed between then and now!

I agree that some of his techniques were too flowery. On the other hand, some were very practical. The principles they taught were very interesting.

Hello Sifu :-)

The part about Echanis not training for long is NOT from an interview with Joo Bang Lee. It's one of those Internet stories that slowly spreads and people starts believing.

Echanis was taught by Joo Bang Lee, he taught Hwarang Do in LA, and the techniques in the books are Hwarang Do.
"Lee agreed to name him as a high-ranking Hwarang-Do practicioner" - this is also not something Lee does.

As mentioned above in one of the posts, there are a couple of videoclips at http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm which shows how the techniques looks in motion rather than still photos for those interested.

Thanks,
Carsten

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=95448

1. this story is rather complicated, I would not say that he was really learning hwarangdo
2. first knife book (defence) is nothing special - just material from half-black belt
3. I got the black book for 10 years and really don't know what so many people see in it...
4. the real deal in hrd knife techniques is Michael DeAlba's materials, but I suggest rather training personally with Him. Much deeper skills and knowledge than you can imagine.

Paul Vunak's past work with the Navy seals and Leo Gaje's present work with US marines in the Phillipines immediately come to mind!

My understanding is that Tuhon Gaje was training the Filipino Marines, not the U.S. Marines. Is that incorrect?

I saw the local USMCR doing CQC training a couple of weekends ago.

Probably the Marine Corps HTH system, Arnisador. They've been pushing it heavily throughout the Corps...all officers are required to get basic instruction and earn a "tan" belt. I don't know much about the system...other than it is eclectic and progressive.


As for Echanis's books influencing the military...at one point, possibly. My sense is that insofar as the Army goes, the Rangers drive the HTH curriculum as outlined in the FM's (Field Manuals). I have a friend at West Point teaching combatives, and if I ever get a chance to confer with him, I'll ask him if my impression is correct.

The current FM stresses BJJ. It states that a joint lock or choke is the fastest way to disable someone, and it hits a lot of the ground work. I have nothing against BJJ, but I DO have a problem with the preceding statement.

When I was stationed at Camp Pendleton (1980-82) a Hwarang Do instructor was teaching a class to Marines somewhere on base. My understanding was that the government contracted him to do it. I don't think they were Force Recon...(something makes me wants to say it was an infantry regiment). The instructor was that Korean taking Joo Bang Lee's throws in the Hwarando book trilogy by Ohara. By the time I heard about it, the class was defunct.



Regards,


Steve

What is the deal on the infamous "black book" and why is it so hard to get?

PAUL

just because there are few copies. Nothing special.

Originally posted by dohap
just because there are few copies. Nothing special.

Well, it also has a reputation for having secret deadly techniques limited to authorized individuals only. This is propaganda, but even still, that's what excites people.

Originally posted by arnisador
Well, it also has a reputation for having secret deadly techniques limited to authorized individuals only. This is propaganda, but even still, that's what excites people.

lol! figures! :rolleyes:

Well, it also has a reputation for having secret deadly techniques limited to authorized individuals only. This is propaganda, but even still, that's what excites people.
I've noticed that this book is now available if you look in the back of your BB Magazine...but...it costs twice as much there as from the publisher direct.

I missed that picture--does anyone have a link?


hi arnisador, i don't know if this is the link you're looking for, but it gives alot of info on pt and the phillipine and us forces, enjoy,

http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/military.php?lang=en&soundsParam=&file=military

also check out this.

http://www.pt-go.com/history_intro.asp

:asian:

Does anyone know to what extent the books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Echanis%2C%20Michael%20D./102-4447365-8711356) on knife and stick fighting by Michael Echanis (http://www.drearic.com/echanis.html) were actually used by the military, to whayt extent and for how long?

hi again, wow, talk about a blast from the past, you have to appreciate the era. rhodesia was hiring foreigners(mercenaries) to help fight, south africa would sign up foreigners who wanted to fight in their national defence force in angola, the situation in central america, nicararagua in particular was a huge concern, regan wasn't in office yet, the soviets were rattling sabres in europe, can't remember if afganistan was invaded yet, iran and iraq were at each others throats, so were the israelis and palestinians,........the more things change the more they stay the same!

anyway, i dusted off my feb. 1979 issue of soldier of fortune, special issue on echanis. apparently, he did teach rangers/sf/and seals as a civilian. he was a viet nam vet,was considered the top student of joo bang lee, and at the time of his death was training and leading(in battle) the commandos of the nicararaguan national guard (he was recruited by samosas son who was an echanis student during his us training). his death was shrouded in mystery as he had many enemies in samosas govt as well as with the sandanistas. so keeping in mind the source(sof), but to me,he was the epitome of the martial warrior. were his principles and philosophies utilized? i'd say yes. hope this helps.

as an aside, at this time i was graduating hs, and wanted to go to either south africa, join the french foreign legion (had the airplane ticket and acceptance papers in hand) or join the canadian military. thank god the can. mil. acceptance came through as i'm pretty sure i wouldn't be here writing this otherwise. who says there aren't guardian angels. :) hope this wasn't too boring.

Thanks for the links and info.

French Foreign Legion! Wow. Who had you killed?

I've noticed that this book is now available if you look in the back of your BB Magazine...but...it costs twice as much there as from the publisher direct.
I have the three books, and occasionally see the knife self-defense one in the bookstore. Rumor is that there are plenty of pictures that were intended for another book(s).

Thanks for the links and info.

French Foreign Legion! Wow. Who had you killed?

i could tell you...but then i'd have to....you know..lmao ;)

Now that Black Belt is republishing the famous "black book", it will finally take some of the mystery surrounding it away. For years now, my copy has been a "no loaner", further reinforcing people's desire to know what "deadly forbidden secrets" are inside. I'll probably get a copy of the reprint just to see if they left anything out.
BTW, I wasn't particularly impressed with the techs presented, either. Rather than fight with two knives, I'd rather have one hand free to check, parry, etc. JMHO, of course. :)

I picked up a copy of the black Echanis book in '96. It was sold in a used bookstore right next to a martial arts school and supply store. I got there about 10 minutes after they put in on the shelf. Picked up that, the 3 vol original hwrangdo books and He-Young Kimm's book, Hapkido (retail price $80+ if you could find it, I got it for $28) and a bunch of other rare MA books. As I was paying for my books, a bunch of students from the MA school came in :lol: . They looked at the stack of my MA books, then ran to the MA section, only to find that I had completely plundered the section already %-} . I had one guy offer the woman at the store $100 for the Kimm book,. I just said "To late, she already charged my credit card." He offered me the money, which I turned down. As I was leaving the store I didn't want to act too cocky. I actually thought they might mug me for those books :uhyeah: . If they had, it would have been pretty embarassing to tell the police.

me: Officer, officer, I was just robbed!
cop: slow down son, how much money did they get?
me: none, they robbed me for my books.
cop: books? What kind of gang is this?
me: It wasn't a gang, it was these kung fu students.

It would have been humiliating, but would have made for a great story 20 years later.

Jon

Now that Black Belt is republishing the famous "black book", it will finally take some of the mystery surrounding it away. For years now, my copy has been a "no loaner", further reinforcing people's desire to know what "deadly forbidden secrets" are inside. I'll probably get a copy of the reprint just to see if they left anything out.
BTW, I wasn't particularly impressed with the techs presented, either. Rather than fight with two knives, I'd rather have one hand free to check, parry, etc. JMHO, of course. :)


I agree with knife dueling, I like a single blade. In mass groups, and being out numbered have a blade in each hand helps to keep people at a distance on more than one side. I know this was not you were going for. Just a different point of view. :asian:

Now that Black Belt is republishing the famous "black book", it will finally take some of the mystery surrounding it away. For years now, my copy has been a "no loaner", further reinforcing people's desire to know what "deadly forbidden secrets" are inside. I'll probably get a copy of the reprint just to see if they left anything out.
BTW, I wasn't particularly impressed with the techs presented, either. Rather than fight with two knives, I'd rather have one hand free to check, parry, etc. JMHO, of course. :)

When will it be released? Do you know? I want to learn the "secrets" too! ;)

When will it be released? Do you know? I want to learn the "secrets" too! ;)
HE HE, Tuli! You can order it now through BB mag, but I don't know if the publisher will release a second edition or what. I want one, though and would like to know what the difference is in what I order soon and what was originally published. Just out of curiosity (got all the techniques from HRD anyway).