Side kicks [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Dominic Jones

06-24-2003, 12:53 AM

Zepp

06-24-2003, 05:24 PM

I try to pivot my supporting foot to 6:00. It usually ends up around 7:30 or so, but I try for 6:00. I do the same for roundhouse kicks as well.

A while ago I developed this bad habit of not fully pivoting my foot, and it led to some minor knee problems. Because of that, I can say that you want to pivot as much as possible to keep your body weight over the front of your knee, not the side.

The pivoting foot is also where you generate most of your power for these types of kicks. I think of my supporting foot as a lever that turns my hip.

MJS

06-24-2003, 07:38 PM

Are you doing the kick with your front or rear leg? You should always pivot, even if it is just a little. Of course you will feel pain in your knee. You are turning your body- 95% of it, while your knee- the other 5% is not moving! Your heel does not have to turn all the way, but you should at least go half way.

Mike

Zepp

06-24-2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by MJS
Are you doing the kick with your front or rear leg? You should always pivot, even if it is just a little. Of course you will feel pain in your knee. You are turning your body- 95% of it, while your knee- the other 5% is not moving! Your heel does not have to turn all the way, but you should at least go half way.

Mike, re-read my post. You and I agree with each other. :)

Kenpomachine

06-25-2003, 11:19 AM

I think you are talking about two different kicks here, though quite similar. The first one is the proper side or knife kick /pivoting of foot ending at 9:00) and the other a variation, which in TKD has another name, as the mechanics and timing are different.

But I might be wrong.

Disco

06-25-2003, 02:58 PM

Not really sure what you mean. A side kick can be thrown from several foot positions, depending on the distance between opponents and what situation your in at the time.

You can deliver a sidekick with the foot position at 10:30-45 deg. You are face to face. The call it a sidekick because the striking foot is turned sideways. Target areas are knee, shin and instep.
You don't turn the hips with this kick. Now from the 9:00-90 deg position. The hips turn, you are now facing sideways to opponent. Target areas (depending on flexibility) are knee, groin, hip, stomach, or chest. From these two positions you can still deliver additional hand / elbow strikes and sweeps.

Now going to the 7:30 and 6:00 positions. These two are interchangeable depending on personal preferance. What these positions do is allow you to go much higher with your kick. Also allows you to do multiple kicks - side, roundhouse , hook and turning back kick. You have better balance from these positions. It's kind of hard to follow up with quick hand strikes from these positions. Not saying that it can't be done, but these positions are more athletic in nature and not everybody has the same abilities. They do lend themselves to the spinning backfist though. You also will be able to push off on the supporting leg stronger, thus adding more power to the side kick.

Hope I was able to afford an additional viewpoint

:asian:

Kenpomachine

06-26-2003, 11:44 AM

Disco, thanks for the clarification. :asian: I think you've explained perfectly what Dominic Jones was asking for and being of help for the rest of us.

I still think they have different names in TKD, but I only trained TKD for a short period of time (6 months) as it was the only martial art available at the moment , and I mixed and mess up all the names but two.

But even by your description, they're still variations of the basic kick. At least that's how I see them... and taught them when helping my instructors.

[Note] While practicing it today, it was more of 10 for me for the hips and chest height . Knee doesn't suffer so much as it's best aligned with foot :) Maybe that's also the reason the kick has more power?

Doc

06-26-2003, 03:42 PM

Gentlemen & ladies,

Although the foot position of the supporting leg is an integral part of the execution of the/a "side kick," it is, as pointed out in an earlier post in this string, "activity dedicated."

The more important issue from an anatomical perspective is the position of the contact foot relative to the height of the kick. What is the position of the kicking foot?

MJS

06-26-2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Doc
Gentlemen & ladies,

Although the foot position of the supporting leg is an integral part of the execution of the/a "side kick," it is, as pointed out in an earlier post in this string, "activity dedicated."

The more important issue from an anatomical perspective is the position of the contact foot relative to the height of the kick. What is the position of the kicking foot?

The position of the kicking foot?? If the kick is going to the knee, the side or blade of the foot could be used. To the midsection, I'd use the heel of the foot.

Not sure if I'm reading your question correctly. Is this the answer you were looking for?

Mike

Zepp

06-27-2003, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by Doc
The more important issue from an anatomical perspective is the position of the contact foot relative to the height of the kick. What is the position of the kicking foot?

The kicking foot should generally be parallel to the floor. If the toes of the kicking foot are higher than the heel, it isn't a sidekick anymore.

Our style teaches us to always use the heel for a sidekick. I know some styles teach you to use the "knife edge" of the foot, but I don't understand why that is. It seems to me that using your foot that way could be useful for strikes to soft tissue targets, but the heel works just as well or better.

Doc

06-28-2003, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Zepp
The kicking foot should generally be parallel to the floor. If the toes of the kicking foot are higher than the heel, it isn't a sidekick anymore.

Our style teaches us to always use the heel for a sidekick. I know some styles teach you to use the "knife edge" of the foot, but I don't understand why that is. It seems to me that using your foot that way could be useful for strikes to soft tissue targets, but the heel works just as well or better.

I agree with your assessment and methodology. The knife-edge kick anatomically may only be used properly when executed below the hip flexor. The “side kick” as most understand it, should be executed, as you stated, with the heel and the ankle aligned as if standing. The “side kick” may be executed below the waist, but may not however be used against a vertical target. The "knife-edge sidekick" is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese’s Arts and is not represented in the traditional Chinese Martial Sciences from which "Kenpo" comes from.

Scott Bonner

07-03-2003, 02:09 PM

Hi. I have 2 questions:

"The “side kick” may be executed below the waist, but may not however be used against a vertical target."

I'm assuming you mean the side kick that strikes with the heel of the foot, like a TKD sidekick. If so, it seems that verticle targets would be fine for it -- like kicking the torso or the knee or the inner thigh, but not the groin since their legs get in the way. You couldn't kick a verticle surface turned 90 degrees to you. For that you'd need another weapon, like a hook kick. You couldn't kick a horizontal surface. For that you'd need another weapon, like an axe kick (also called hammer kick?). Essentially, the target has to be verticle, flat to you, and unobstructed on one side. What am I missing here?

"The "knife-edge sidekick" is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese’s Arts and is not represented in the traditional Chinese Martial Sciences from which "Kenpo" comes from."

I've heard you say this before. I had though that the Kenpo of the 50's (Chow's material) was pretty "Okinawan" (meaning hard style but with some circles, and still generating power the hard-style ways). I saw video this past weekend of Mr. Parker doing early stuff with Chuck Sullivan, and it looked awfully Okinawan to me, and I could see early versions of today's techniques in what they were doing. This influence does not seem to have been purged when the Chinese material was brought in (from what my largely untrained eye can see).

To put it another way, I had thought that early kenpo was from Okinawan/Japanese arts, later greatly modified by Mr. Parker to include elements from Chinese, Phillipine, and Indonesian arts as well as some ideas of his own.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Peace,
Scott

Doc

07-03-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Scott Bonner
[B]Hi. I have 2 questions:

"The “side kick” may be executed below the waist, but may not however be used against a vertical target."

I'm assuming you mean the side kick that strikes with the heel of the foot, like a TKD sidekick.

Well I'm talking about the side kick where the foot is essentially aligned as it would be if you were standing on it, but emphasizing the heel as the weapon. From that alignment to kick a vertical target would be akin to stepping on an uneven surface with your body weight and would have a negative impact on and probably damage the ankle.

If so, it seems that verticle targets would be fine for it -- like kicking the torso or the knee or the inner thigh, but not the groin since their legs get in the way.
[quote]

No not using the guidelines I previously stated.

[quote]
"The "knife-edge sidekick" is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese’s Arts and is not represented in the traditional Chinese Martial Sciences from which "Kenpo" comes from."
I've heard you say this before. I had though that the Kenpo of the 50's (Chow's material) was pretty "Okinawan" (meaning hard style but with some circles, and still generating power the hard-style ways). I saw video this past weekend of Mr. Parker doing early stuff with Chuck Sullivan, and it looked awfully Okinawan to me, and I could see early versions of today's techniques in what they were doing. This influence does not seem to have been purged when the Chinese material was brought in (from what my largely untrained eye can see).

Actually, it was a mixture of all of the influences on Chow in the islands. Lots of Okinawan/Japanese influence for sure, but Chow had Chinese Roots and was only interested in applications and abandoned the usual formal way of Chinese teaching that emphasized forms to teach body mechanics.

To put it another way, I had thought that early kenpo was from Okinawan/Japanese arts, later greatly modified by Mr. Parker to include elements from Chinese, Phillipine, and Indonesian arts as well as some ideas of his own.

Actually all of those elements were there before but, remember people like Chow and Emperado were setting the training which was pretty "loose" and was pretty much as primitive as most arts were outside of China. Of course the Kenpo of the 50's was fairly linear, but was distinct in that in used rapid fire kicks and strikes beyond the traditional "one punch kill" of the Okinawan/Japanese. Parker's first book on Kenpo looks rather tame today but caused a significant stir in its day. He displayed all of these "combinations" and talked about "nerves" and their effect. The key is Ed Parker constantly "evolved," and most kept doing whatever they learned at the time and rarely changed or moved forward as a whole. Of course you could get a black belt easily in a year in those days in ant style if you really committed and were a physical contact person. Norris, Lewis, Ibrao, etc all got their blacks in less than a year. Students got their belts so fast there was no need for different color belts, and "belt tips" actually made more sense. There just wasn't that much Kenpo material until Parker began to expand.

Back to the "sidekick." Parker never did a knife edge sidekick above his waist. Ark Wong (along with "Tiny") stopped that when he first came to Southern California, and he never did it again when he understood why not. He told me that, "... all those guys will have hip surgery one day." Talking about some of the "fancy kickers" as he called them of the day. That came true across all styles. Wallace, Norris, Both Takehashi's, Choi, and a number of significant kenpo names have all had single and double hip surgery. Over time, how and where you kick and stretch has a huge impact on the hip flexor. Kenpo has all the kicks that are anatomically correct and Parker himself did not do any that weren't.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Scott you know you're never wrong, just a tad off target now and then. :)
I haven't forgot you good buddy, I've just been mad busy as a one armed, one legged ninja doing a hand stand in a fight in a Chinese restaurant parking lot.

I'm stuck in la la land doing a thing for my employer.

Scott Bonner

07-03-2003, 05:53 PM

Thanks much!

We must do the side kick differently, as I am not seeing how it would damage the ankle, or how it is akin to stepping on an uneven surface. Whatever the issue is, I'm not visualizing it.

(As reference, for right side kick from right neutral bow, 1) I pick my right knee up and turn hips while pivoting the left foot and pointing my tushy at the bad guy, then 2) launch foot out horizontally, with toes and heel on same plane, and hitting squarely with the heel and not the rest of the foot, then 3) pull leg back into first position, then 4) put right foot down into stance while shifting left foot. I though this was how everyone did it. <shrug>)

I'll ask my brother (a TKD guy) about it and see what he thinks. I know from asking that my brother has no use for the knife-edge kick at all, at any height, though I think he aknowledges it's utility to the back of the knee with the caveat that it's risky.

Thanks for responding.

Peace,
Scott

rmcrobertson

07-04-2003, 12:03 AM

Just to note, I was originally taught a side-kick (by my first and still senior instructor, Toni, who has a certificate to open a school from Mr. Parker, before anybody starts yelllin') as a knife-edge, out of a crane stance with toes down, to ensure that I a) pivoted the supporting foot, b) shaped the weapon.

When she taught it, I thought then--and I think now--that this was as undiluted a kenpo side-kick, as pure an expression of what Mr. Parker thought, as one is likely to find. It's stood me in good stead since.

See Long Form 2, where--I agree--the kick is often done far too high. I was taught this as (at most) a shin-to-knee kick. Specifically, I was taught it's a kick to be used when a bad guy on your flank grabs your shoulder...

And I might add--because of the way Toni taught, I skipped most of the injuries.

The other side-kick's different, of course.

Thanks.

Doc

07-04-2003, 04:42 AM

See Long Form 2, where--I agree--the kick is often done far too high. I was taught this as (at most) a shin-to-knee kick. Specifically, I was taught it's a kick to be used when a bad guy on your flank grabs your shoulder...

You make an excellent point, and I agree most do that "side knife edge" kick too high. From my perspective it is because its application isn't generally taught.

I was taught the kick has almost no chamber, and is aimed at the shin (lots of nerves) to control/stop the forward leg, and it is a set up for the mora beat timing follow strike to a gall bladder point on the rib cage. Executed correctly, it is quite effective.

Michael Billings

07-04-2003, 01:56 PM

No chambering as done in Long Form 2. With no change in height ... A jab with the foot rather than a "chop" in this instance. Same target as Robert and Doc.

I use a knife-edge and a side kick. Both which are clearly defined by others. As my students progress in sparring, I teach a side thrust from point of origin without a "chamber" action. It derives power from the counter-rotation of the hips, amongst a confluence of other factors. This came from Joe Lewis and Raymond McCallum seminars in the 80's, but it still works just fine.

Doc

07-04-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Michael Billings
No chambering as done in Long Form 2. With no change in height ... A jab with the foot rather than a "chop" in this instance. Same target as Robert and Doc.

I use a knife-edge and a side kick. Both which are clearly defined by others. As my students progress in sparring, I teach a side thrust from point of origin without a "chamber" action. It derives power from the counter-rotation of the hips, amongst a confluence of other factors. This came from Joe Lewis and Raymond McCallum seminars in the 80's, but it still works just fine.
Nasty!

Wes Idol

08-01-2003, 11:54 AM

I agree with both Mr. Chapel and Mr. Billings....no chamber and shoot the kick directly at the shin, with the punch to the ribs. Also, far too many people counter balance. If you ever saw Mr. Parker do this, which I have, he simply used rotation that started from a fully-rotated-neutral-bow and attacked with his mass, as opposed to his strength which would be needed if you shift your axis back for counter balance.

For a "sparring" situation, I offer this application to students as checking someone's side kick, while shooting the punch to their head. Simply giving them other options than the very distructive respiratory meridian target that is attacked in the form.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

rmcrobertson

08-01-2003, 12:39 PM

Actually, the point is...to develop a range of possibilities for the side-kick that fit different situations and applications. The point, also, is that that "chambering," may be useful for other purposes, which is why it's in Long 2.

Another neat side-kick: the knife-edge side out of a wide kneel in Shield and Mace...

kenpo2dabone

08-01-2003, 03:40 PM

In my opinion keeping true to Kenpo principles in any of the variations of this kick is paramount. The supporting foot should not be rotated past the point of the correct position for the neutral bow. This means the 45. The principle where the line ends the circle begins and where the circle ends the line begins coupled with economy of motion explaines this in my opinion. It does not matter if you rotate your foot at the end of the kick (where the line ends the circle begins) or you rotate your foot first such as into a twist stance and then kick (where the circle ends the line begins). Rotating past the 45 only means that the foot will have to be rotated back before engagement can continue (we call this happy feet) and it breaks the economy of motion principle. The only exception that I can think of at the moment might be if you are trying to incorporate a line change before or after the kick. Sparring is a different story because you are basically playing a game of tag I might rotate my foot past the 45 to get that extra 2-3 inches of penetration to close the gap and score a point.

Salute,

Mike Miller UKF

WhiteTiger

09-06-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
The supporting foot should not be rotated past the point of the correct position for the neutral bow. This means the 45. ----I might rotate my foot past the 45 to get that extra 2-3 inches of penetration to close the gap and score a point.

Agreed you must rotate to at least 45 degrees or risk serious knee injury. But going past 45 is an option to gain distance. We use a sliding side kick in which our supporting foot slides toward the target, as the kick is being thrown, borrowing mass from your entire upper body you can easily close up to 24 inches of distance and still deliver a devistating kick.

As for the debate over "side" vs. "knife edge" the knife edge is target based, meaning if you are kicking at a small target such as the knee and don't want to risk missing, then lengthen your weapon. It was taught to me as a completly different kick AKA "Knee Kick" hint hint.

MisterMike

09-17-2003, 02:35 PM

Another neat side-kick: the knife-edge side out of a wide kneel in Shield and Mace

I was wondering how you personally execute this kick, both in the technique and in Form 4.

I run it as a thrusting side kick, pivoting on my base leg to engage my hips. In these kicks, the base leg points it's heel towards the target.

Running this on the right side is pretty easy, but as for left sided kicks, as in the second side in Form 4, I have an awkward time rotating back to end in my horse stance for the beginning of Five Swords.

Thanks!

rmcrobertson

09-26-2003, 12:01 AM

Maybe try a slicing knife-edge side out of the wide kneels, and continue the arc of the kick so that you can balance.

ShaolinWolf

04-16-2004, 08:38 PM

Well, how we teach it in my school is that your toes basically point toward 6 o'clock. Seems it's easier to balance. I find it so, anyway. I can be harder for some I've noticed, but it's great once you get it down.

MisterMike

05-06-2004, 01:52 PM

Wow - this is an oldie..but I think I would have missed Robert's reply if you hadn't revived it, so thanks!

The first side of Shield and Mace is easy to finish because you continue pivoting on your left foot after the kick counter-clockwise into a horse for the second side.

But ending the second side of Shield and Mace, you have to retract your kick to plant back into a horse facing 12:00, and if you run it as a thrust as I was taught, it's a lil' awkward.

It's interesting though, if you run it with a thrust, you must leave the wide-kneel stance to gain height before doing the thrust kick (which is downward, not outward inmy case), but if you stay low like Robert mentioned, the slice would work nicely and compliment the slicing handsword in the previous move.

Lata,

Ceicei

05-30-2004, 09:51 PM

The angle of my supporting foot changes direction depending upon how high my side kick goes....

- Ceicei

TigerWoman

05-30-2004, 10:31 PM

I read this old thread thanks to Ceicei bringing it back. I kept thinking well they always could do that sidekick to the knee or kidney (side), then pivot the supporting foot further -point toes back and sidekick higher to the head.
I have to do that in form. It also lends itself to to a sidekick and immediate high round.

Never heard of this "knife kick"--we don't do it. I would think the heel of a regular sidekick would be much more effective than the side of the foot. I'm sure I could break the knee easy with a low sidekick. I doubt it with a "knife" kick.

Anyone else know if this works as well? It sounds like it is a low crescent.
I don't know how the power could be generated to break the knee. Or is the target lower-the shin? I'm kind of thinking out loud. I'm TKD.

teej

06-04-2004, 11:40 AM

This is very interesting to me as I can't stand when someone tells me they are throwing a side kick and I look at it and it is a round house kick and they don't know. But I have identified a common problem that causes this that I will get into later.

I totally agree with Mr. Billings, that there is no chamber with the lead leg side kick as in Long Two if your intent is to "jab with it. My understanding is that in the early days Kenpo guys on the circuit were known for groin kicks [i did not say or mean to imply side kicks to the groin] and for "jabbing" with their front leg side kick. [Doc, in your opinion, is this historically correct?]

As Mr. Billings pointed out, this lead leg side kick can be devestating, but after the student learns how to use proper body mechanics of pivoting, lining the hip and heel up, and thrusting. So to get to this point, I start at the begining.

I teach beginers front leg side kicks, to the height of waist level or below. For example, in a left neutral bow kicking to 12 with the left leg. [this is teaching beginers to side kick, I'm not talking about the Long 2 kick. This is how I approach getting the body mechanics down for a thrusting side kick, not snapping.]

I have my students chamber their left leg with their knee lifted and pointed to 3 o'clock. Sometimes I'll actually hold a pad at 3 and make them knee it before throwing the side kick to 12. I also have them pick their foot up and keep it flat to the ground, not toes pointed down. The supporting leg foot, r foot, will as they execute the side kick, pivot on the ball and end with their toes pointing to at least 3, but the strong kickers end up pivoting their support foot so their toes point to 6 when side kicking to 12. Again this is developing for the thrusting side kick. A snapping or jabbing front leg side kick does not need the supporting foot to pivot.

I have seen many students that will end up with a perfectly formed side kick foot and think it is a side kick, but when I watch them execute the kick, it comes out as a round house and ends up with side kick foot formation. When I futher examine their execution, the problem usually stems from their chamber. 9 times out of 10 they have chambered the leg with their kicking foot behind the supporting legs knee. From this position the leg arcs out like a round house, their is no thrust. If their is any thrusting motion from this chamber, it comes in the very last part of the kick. I am sure that there are individuals that can pull this off from this chambered position, but to eliminate my constantly correcting this, I teach chambering the foot in front of the supporting leg.

Why not with the toes pointed down? Only because in my limited opinon, it is something else the student has to remember to do, pull the toes up, straighten the foot, thrust out the heel. The foot starts from being flat on the floor, so I have my students keep their foot in that position and just lift it up. As Mr. Robertson pointed out, it can be done from this position. I can do it from this position and I originally learned from this position. But I have corrected so many errors in side kicks and a lot of them were corrected just by having the student pick the foot up flat.

Again referencing the kick in Long Two, you pick the foot up flat and snap or jab it. The ones I have seen picking their leg up with the toes pointed towards the ground in long two, again, usually [not always] end up snapping out a round house that has a the foot formed like a side kick at the end.

After they get this down with the pivots pretty good, then I will introduce rear leg side kicks. They take more time to execute, but set up correctly, they have their application and can be extremely strong.

Some of you may not agree with my methods, but my students throw side kicks that are side kick and round houses when they are suppose to throw round houses. This is my limited experience. I make no claims to "rule of thumb".

After the proper body mechanics are learned and become natural to the individual, they can execute devasting lead leg side kicks with little chambering as Mr. Billings stated. And as previously stated, the targets I also teach are the knee and shin.

Just my perspective, and I'm sticking to it.
Teej

Faye

06-11-2004, 03:47 PM

For me, bad habit of not pivoting all the way hurts my ankle and my left leg (upper portion), but if you fully pivot, it doens't happen.

AvPKenpo

07-11-2004, 10:01 PM

What position is your supporting leg/foot when you do a sidekick. Why do you do this? What do you consider to be correct anatomical alignment of the supporting leg (and why)?

Does Kicking Method effect your foot position (e.g. thrusting, snapping, slicing)?

Does the height of your target effect your supporting leg position?

Cheers Dom :asian:

Kicking method thrusting/snapping is one of the main determining factors on supporting foot position. IMHO.

For example, on a sidesnap kick (targets for this normally are not above the waist except for when the training partner/oppenent are on the ground) the supporting foot does not move, nor should you chamber your kicking foot unless you are dodging a sweep. One of the nice features from this kick is that you are usually following up with an array of attacks from elbows to claws and you are landing forward with this paticular kick.
As for a side thrust kick you will transfer the thrust by turning your hips and pivoting the supporting leg to 6 o'clock. One of the major reasons for the pivot is that you recieve anywhere from 3-6 inches more penetration from this kick to the target.
Also note that usually the sidesnap kick is going in and the sidethrust kick is leaving. The sidethrust has so much more power behind it that it (IMHO) is used more for the final blow, in other words to exit or to incapacitate, whereas the sidesnap kick is used to stun/pause the oppenent/training partner so that you can follow up with your kenpo base.

Michael :asian:

Rob Broad

07-23-2004, 12:27 AM

The only problem I see with sidekicks is that most people end up throwing a roundhouse action into the kick. This is very common in beginners.

OC Kid

07-23-2004, 10:02 AM

very true rob. I keep telling my students over and over repeating and repeating, thrust side kick, **** the leg back weapon (heel) pointing at the target , show him your butt checks straight out with the heel and straight back, its a liner tech. out and back..theyre starting to get it.

But i disagree with the guy who said you dont chamber the snap side kick. I teach the complete movement. But I also teach it useing the knife edge of the foot and not the heel on a snap side. I tell my students its not a power kick its more like a boxers jab to set up another tech.

teej

07-24-2004, 08:07 AM

very true rob. I keep telling my students over and over repeating and repeating, thrust side kick,

"But i disagree with the guy who said you dont chamber the snap side kick. I teach the complete movement. But I also teach it useing the knife edge of the foot and not the heel on a snap side. I tell my students its not a power kick its more like a boxers jab to set up another tech."

I agreee and disagree. The snap side kick in Kenpo is like a jab. This kick should be with the lead leg. I disagree that the kick is chambered. You described it correctly relating it to a boxers jab, but again, a boxed does not chamber their jab. The jab comes from the point of origin from where the lead hand is. The same with the "snap" or jab side kick. The leg comes straight up from the floor and swings out. I may have a different view of chambering than OC does. If by chambering you mean that you bring the kicking foot to the supporting leg knee before you kick as snap kick, that I totally disagree with.

The snap side kick should be done just like it is taught, (maybe I should say how I was taught and how I teach it) in Long 2. You lift the leg straight up from its point of origin from the stance you are in, and the kick hinges out from the knee at that point. You do not chamber the kick to the supporting leg knee before you throw the kick.

I do ask Rob Broad to search back my original reply in this thread where I tried to explain where I have found this problem to originate concerning the leg coming out like a round house, as see if my explaination clears anything up.

Teej

shaolinchi

08-07-2004, 12:07 AM

Actually there are a few different types of side kicks...Please don't take this the wrong way, I am in no way trying to be the be all end all but as I have learned there is a "snap side kick", which has decent power, but is very quick and requires no pivot if thrown like Knee length and lower...then there is the pivoting side kick, which has plenty more power, but isn't nearly as fast. But in all fairness, one can only truly kick with full power as high as one can hold his or her leg unaided...for me, that isn't very high, being I am quite short.

MisterMike

08-31-2004, 12:51 AM

"90 cat" for the side snap, "6:00" for the thrust.

Or if you are facing 12:00, kicking to 3:00, 12:00 for the base leg during a snap and 9:00 for the end position of the thrust.

Blooming Lotus

11-24-2004, 08:00 PM

A side kick can be thrown from several foot positions, depending on the distance between opponents and what situation your in at the time.

:asian:
Agreeing with this and pending the style your side is comming from. You'll be surprised how many variation there actually are.

BL

kensen83

11-25-2004, 01:15 AM

i see everyone discussing the side kick jab which is a wonderfull kick, but i have not seen anyone really adress a full force thrusting side kick to the midsection of the target. when we first learned this type of thrusting side kick, simply called a thrust kick for my style of shaolin kempo, we would cross behind your lead leg with our back leg, back facing the target and then quickly thrust out our front leg pushing it threw the target, effectivly making it a devistating kick, at higher levels the cross behind is subsituted for a shuffle step motion, which is a much faster movement. this kick obviously woudl be hitting with the flat bottom portions of the foot. IN all versions of the thrusting side kick the pivot is of vital importance with your supporting foot always pivoted so that your back heal is pointing to the target, this maximaizes the power and controle you have over your kick. Just to go totaly off topic for a moment my personal favorite kick however will always be the hook kick, always has been my fastest kicking wepon in tornment fighting.

Simon Curran

12-28-2004, 07:27 AM

Hi everyone,

In my personal opinion, although I am no great kicker, and definately not an authority on the subject, I think all techniques should be performed in the most natural and anatomically efficient manner, with respect to the side kick, at least for me personally, I pivot my supporting foot fully and strike with the heel, and again just in my humble opinion, this is where I get the most penetration, but it is not a favoured technique of mine anyway, personally I prefer the thrusting front kick with the rear leg, since this is the exact method one uses in kicking down a door and if it is powerful enough to demolish a door jamb then I reckon it should be good enough to take care of most opponents...
Again, just my inconsequential opinion.

rmcrobertson

02-21-2005, 01:28 PM

In Long Form 2, the snapping side kicks should indeed be "chambered," if by chambered we mean that one transitions back to a cat stance and then to a crane stance (as the hand that just punched pulls back also) before throwing the low (shin-high) knife-edge side and the vertical punch simultaneously. This is also not a bad way to learn/teach a side kick, because it forces students to a) shape the weapon properly (assuming that the low side kick starts with the toe down, then extends the side of the foot), b) rotate the hip, c) pivot on the supporting leg.

The only problem with learning the side kick this way surfaces later, as a strong tendency (in my case, anyway) to chamber the kick and to use the knife-edge of the foot, even when the full chamber and the knife-edge aren't appropriate. But if you consider what I just described to be one extreme and some of the other descriptions on this thread to be the other extreme, we should be learning the full spectrum of choices anyway.

One thing to watch out for, I learned from reading one of Bruce Lee's books--watch out for locking out the knee and the hip, especially when you're not kicking a bag. If I recollect correctly, Mr. Lee actually argued for never doing side-kicks except into a bag, for that reason...

kenpoworks

02-22-2005, 08:26 AM

[QUOTE=teej]I agreee and disagree. The snap side kick in Kenpo is like a jab. This kick should be with the lead leg. I disagree that the kick is chambered. You described it correctly relating it to a boxers jab, but again, a boxed does not chamber their jab. The jab comes from the point of origin from where the lead hand is. The same with the "snap" or jab side kick. The leg comes straight up from the floor and swings out. I may have a different view of chambering than OC does. If by chambering you mean that you bring the kicking foot to the supporting leg knee before you kick as snap kick, that I totally disagree with.

The snap side kick should be done just like it is taught, (maybe I should say how I was taught and how I teach it) in Long 2. You lift the leg straight up from its point of origin from the stance you are in, and the kick hinges out from the knee at that point. You do not chamber the kick to the supporting leg knee before you throw the kick END QUOTE....

On the whole I agree with teej's Idea for teaching and training the side Kick in LF2, before I teach the "kick" I make sure that stance transition from A Neutral to a Horse stance is worked Then introduce the kick.

I am /used to be an OK kicker ( which I brought from my Wado Ryu days) there is a statement which I first heard some 25 years ago in Kenpo, which I had to discard... If you learn to Kick "high" then Kicking "low" will take care of itself.... baloney, there are a different set challenges when kicking effectively below the waist, that's why I like teej's reference to a boxers jab, eliminating chambering, executing the kick and then quickly re-establishing a base.
Rich

rmcrobertson

02-22-2005, 12:51 PM

The problem is that the "chamber," in Long Form 2 has a purpose or three, and they are elided if you don't teach it that way.

teej

02-22-2005, 02:00 PM

Mr. Robertson has pointed out some very good ideas for learning to side kick properly. However, I am not clear of his definition of how the kick is chambered.

If you mean that the side kicking foot is chambered next to the supporting legs knee, then like Kenpoworks, I totally disagree. That is wasted motion for the purpose of this kick in this form. **Notice, I stated for this kicks purpose in this form. Long2.***

It is very possible that you learned it differently and I have no doubt that you know how to side kick and you know how to properly teach a side kick. But keep in mind that SGM Parker taught everything in a methodical and logical order. Students in Parker Kenpo have previously learned 3 forms, Shrt 1, Lng 1, Shrt 2, without doing any kicks. The left side kick is the very first kick in a Parker form that you learn and execute.

Can the side kick be chambered next to the knee? Yes. Is it supposed to be chambered next to the supporting leg knee in Long 2? NO! In Long Form 2, the snapping side kick is taught to show and teach the student the relationship between the hand and foot. That is why the side kick snaps out just like the left verticle punch does.

Like I said, you can change how the leg is chambered, but then that changes the principle Mr. Parker was teaching here. Again, the side kick in Long Form 2, is the very first kick the Parker Kenpo student learns in a FORM. For this side kick in THIS form, the student is suppose to learn, see, realize, understand, the relationship of the hand and the foot. More specifically, the relationship between the SNAPPING verticle punch and the SNAPPING side kick. That is one of the reasons they are executed together. The student should be in a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock. The snapping verticle punch is originating from a position similar to a boxers. The left hand is up by the face and the left elbow is pointed down towards your left hip. (kind of like the verticle outward block postion previously done) The kick should "jab" out from the point of origin. Chambering this particular type of side kick to your supporting legs knee would "telegraph" your intent and change its method of execution. The knee lifts straight up from the neutral bow position and the side kick hinges or snaps out. It is a low kick. It is not a high. It is not even a waiste or belt level kick. Maybe to some, what I described is a type of chamber. I see it differently.

I have used the method described by Mr. Roberston, to help teach side kicks. But not for the kind of side kick employed in Long Form 2.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

rmcrobertson

02-22-2005, 04:33 PM

Sorry, but that side kick in Long 2 is suppoosed to back up a student's education in how to side kick, and is taught with a chamber to emphasize: a) proper shaping of the weapon; b) strong stance/balance; c) pivoting on the support leg and good hip rotation; d) developing the leg's, "return," muscles in the kick.

I don't think that the foot should chamber to knee height, no, but to the calf with the toe down in this form. I'd also point out that while the kick is indeed supposed to be kept in relation with the hand, this relation seems to be enacted as a chambering of upper and lower case at the same time. Yes, it's a low kick--a snapping, knife-edge side-kick to (as one good choice) the shin against an opponent who's fairly close--and it's accompanied with a short, jabbing vertical punch.

It has been my observation that students who don't do the kick that way tend to, "lurch," into it. I don't think "telegraphing," is the issue here--where you consider telegraphing, I consider an erasure of an application or three. I mean, do you also eliminate the, "C," steps that take you into the reverse bows/neutral bows that go to first nine, and then three?

Incidentally, I'd also thought that Kicking Set was taught before Long 2, and that set certainly has a coupla side kicks in it.

Still--as I noted--I did hit a point when I had to redo some side-kicks for very much the reasons you mention. But not in this form, I think.

kenpoworks

02-23-2005, 12:45 AM

teej....Again, the side kick in Long Form 2, is the very first kick the Parker Kenpo student learns in a FORM"...Yeah, I agree again teej, at this level the student is well versed in the various methods of executing side kicks from Kicking Set#1 as well as Techniques, Checking the Storm, Introduces the Side Kick to Kenpoka.

The side kick that you describe is a new challenge takes a bit of work and is a lot harder to try and perfect than it looks, if your posture, basic stances and manoeuvres are poor then this kick could look like an uncontrolled lunge.

Rich

teej

02-23-2005, 07:13 AM

Again Mr. Roberts, you point to execellent aspects that the student needs to know to properly do a side kick. But not in this form, Long 2.

Look at what you posted. quote "c) pivoting on the support leg and good hip rotation" This is for a "thrusting side kick". Completely different power principle. This is not done the way the side kick should be taught in this form. When you pivot the supporting leg and rotate the hips, the side kick becomes a thrusting side kick. Long 2 is a snapping kick. Pivoting and hip rotation is wasted motion if you are doing a snapping kick. That would be like a boxer pulling his hip and shoulder back before jabbing.

The front leg snapping side kicking leg is raised from its point of origin in a neutral bow stance. The foot does need to be properly formed. The student does have to have a strong stance and balance. But the kick leg just hinges outward from the knee in the snapping motion, then comes back and the foot is replaced to the neutral bow position. There is no pivoting of the supporting leg and there is no hip rotation with this type of side kick.

Yes there is a kicking set, but not everyone teaches it these days, and as you know, in EP American Kenpo,there is a difference between a set and a form.

Possibly, if we contacted Doc, he will shed some more light on why SGM Parker made this decision of this being the first kick in a form. The students that you see lurching into it are trying to do the kick properly. Their weight should not be leaning forward into the kick. Again, this is a very fast and quick kick. For the student to lift the leg this way, there is a very minute weight shift to the rear leg. But not the major weight shift you would have doing a thrusting side kick.

It is very possible, especially these days, that you were taught the form differently than I. An instuctor may have been trying to teach you something differently if you learned to pivot and rotate the hip when side kicking in this section of Long 2. Again Mr. Robertson, I agree with your points on a side kick especially when I see so many practitioners doing side kicks that look like round house kicks. (but not my students) I teach all the aspects that you brought up.

But not in Long Form 2. It is a very fast snapping side kick. There is no hip rotation and no supporting leg pivoting here.

Yours in Kenpo, Teej

kenpoworks

02-23-2005, 09:14 AM

I have seen this kick performed numerous times in in Form commpetition at various heights, from the chambered position and while pivoting on the supporting leg which protects the knee joint as well as adding torque, from a performance point of view it is an ok way to execute this kick.
Teej, after the side kick in LF2 you replant the foot into a Neutral Bow?
Rich

rmcrobertson

02-23-2005, 12:33 PM

Sorry, I don't think so.

I happened to have been taught precisely the kick (by someone who knew exactly what she was teaching) I described as a snapping--repeat, snapping--side kick, directed against a close attacker's shin or ankle, well before I'd ever heard of Long Form 2. It may be useful to note that both my first teacher and a pretty-knowledgeable second teacher described the kick this way in Long Form 2.

The issue, however, isn't the kick. It's what you consider to be "waste motion," and what I do not see as a waste.

While of course sets and forms differ, it is worth noting that kenpo seems to me to be of a piece. The first kicking sets have a lot of, "waste motion," in them (at the corners, for example; in the step from a neutral bow to 3:00 to a horse stance towards 12:00, at the end), and yet--the motions aren't wasted. Similarly, I don't think this motion is wasted, any more than the c-step/reverse bow/neutral bow transition is wasted.

I will, of course, think about your argument and ask a question or two elsewhere. But I think you're wrong. As a last point, it may be worth noting that the kick you're describing would seem to be out of synch with the form as a whole, as well as with its, "Chinese," roots.

teej

02-24-2005, 07:03 AM

Yes Rich, a neutral bow. But only for a very brief moment. You finish in a neutral bow facing 9 as you started when begining this sequence. So your foot is at a 45 degree angle. So your left foot is now at the correct angle when you transition into a Right 45 degree cat stance before going and repeating this sequence facing 3 o'clock.

Well Mr. McRobertson, atleast we agree it is some form of a side kick here. I think at this point that we would have to meet to see each other do the kick. I don't know that we can properly make our point typing.

We are also in complete agreement that this is a "snapping side kick". I just don't agree that to snap the kick, you need to chamber the kicking foot next to the supporting knee, or that you need to pivot the leg or rotate your hips. You can snap the side kick out without doing that. That is why I refer to chambering next to the other knee along with hip rotation and pivioting here as wasted motion. Only because the way I execute the kick, you don't need to do these things here.

I also agree with the targets you mention. Exactly as I teach them.

The person that taught me, learned directly from SGM Parker. So as you and I appear to have credible backgrounds, I conclude that possibly you and I have been taught differently. Another possiblility is that Mr. Parker taught our instructors differently.

Also, I very seriously appreciate the fact that we can type and post about this in a civil fashion, where others slash away at each other. Thank you very much.

Yours in Kenpo, Teej

**Rich (Kenpoworks) check your PM. Even though the big pond is between us, I think we have the same lineage. In fact, I am going to be with 2-3 possibly 4 of your friends this weekend.***

teej

02-24-2005, 07:34 AM

Kenpoworks,

I couldn't PM you. It says that your mail box is full. I won't be able to e-mail until next week.

Teej

teej

02-24-2005, 09:40 AM

Robert, I do not follow your thinking on how this way of execution is "out of synch with Kenpo's Chinese roots". I may be wrong, but my understanding is that side kicks are not Chinese in origin anyway. I am pondering your observation though. But that is probably topic for another thread, unless you want to PM or e-mail me about it.

As long as you are going to reference other sources concerning our differences in thinking here. Let me try one more time with a different analogy to get my point across.

Durning the early years of the Internationals, Kenpo fighters developed a reputation for being "groin kickers". This stemmed in part from the way some fighters executed a lead leg front kick. While fighting, some Kenpo fighters would simply lift the front leg up off the ground and quickly snap out the front kick. They did not chamber all the way back to the supporting leg knee. The kick leg was lifted and the kick hinged forward from the knee. In essence, they were jabbing with their leg/foot.

Because this type of execution was not fully chambered back to the supporting leg knee, the front kicks were not very high. They did not have to be to be effective. Because of this, the kick often caught the opponent in the groin. Fast, effective and stunning, again like a boxers jab.

Certainly a lead leg front kick can be chambered back to the supporting legs knee. A lead leg front kick can kick high if chambered right and you can thrust with a lead leg kick. But in this type of situation, the EP Kenpo guys just lifted the leg and shot the foot out in the quickest fashion.

That is the same principle that I was taught to teach for the side kick in Long Form 2. Again, that is how I was taught and my instructor learned from SGM personally. There probably are other 1st generation instructors out there that may have learned and teach it differently. But this is how I was taught. If I recall somewhere else, Doc mentioned that he also taught not to chamber the kick in this form. Possibly, I can not type my wording accurately enough to make my point. But I appreciate the correspondence.

Sincerely your in Kenpo,
Teej

kenpoworks

02-24-2005, 10:29 AM

Teej,
I have "sorted out" my in box, please feel free to try again, I am looking forward to talking to you.
Rich

rmcrobertson

02-24-2005, 01:47 PM

OK, I thought about it, and checked with somebody very much in a position to know.

You've got a point: there isn't an need for that foot to be chambered as far up the leg as I mentioned. And, I have seen tapes in which that kick is thrown right from the ground, no pivot, no nothing.

However, I also have a point. The foot is brought back with the hip pivot towards a cat and crane, precisely to coordinate its movement with that of the upper case hand, which draws back simultaneously.

If you think about it, it would make a lot of sense to start students off with a kick that violate most of the principles of a good kick, but with one that demands some balance, some weight shifting, some hip rotation...

The remark I made about this being, "Un-Chinese," was fairly dumb on my part--just my general sense that none of the China-originated arts I've seen appear to have kicks done the way you're describing.

Thanks, again, for the discussion.

distalero

02-24-2005, 06:47 PM

The way Teej is describing this particular kick is precisely the way it was taught to us ( pre AK, circa 1969). Interesting.

kenpoworks

02-24-2005, 08:20 PM

Hey distalero,
Please tell more, PM or online.
With Respect
Richard

distalero

02-25-2005, 01:13 PM

Teej has covered this in better detail than I would've, partly because it was a kick I never considered actually using (although I used to spar with someone who used it all the time. He was a prison guard, so maybe he had a specific reason). For Long 2 we were taught to lift the forward foot in just the way described. You have to understand that in those days the teaching method was a little different: there was, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, a bit more of a "trickle down" aspect to it. We didn't have manuals to refer to. If you wanted it, you learned by watching everyone, by asking, and by being corrected by seniors or the teacher, and to a lesser extent this applied to a form's content as well. So you could get some "interpretation" from the get go, vs. a strict "this is The Way It's Done". Anyhow, I was told that it was either a shin kick (which at best was really difficult for me to do with enough power to kick through my oponent's adrenaline rush), or a shin check with an implied scrape. The common mistake many of us made was to lift the forward foot higher, hop in the air ala a "chicken kick", and actually chamber, or at least lift, the rear foot as you turned to face the next attacker (showing type of kick and evasive move?). Consequently the whole move ended up feeling less than effective, so in my youthful indiscretion I just glossed it over, not something I'm proud of now. That's why I remember this kick, though. It was problematic, and we were frequently corrected in it, in the way Teej described.

kenpoworks

02-25-2005, 09:30 PM

Thanks.
Rich

rmcrobertson

02-27-2005, 02:28 PM

In Long Form 2, the side-kick should be followed by a, "c-step," with the right foot that takes you to 3:00 in a reverse bow before turning to a right neutral bow, very much in the fashion of a technique such as, "Crushing Hammer."

As already pointed out, the feet should, "drag," along, only being lifted for the kicks.

masherdong

02-28-2005, 12:34 PM

I found that my toes are usually at a 6:00 position most of the time. Sometimes they are at a 7:00 position.

DuneViking

02-28-2005, 09:48 PM

Position of base leg has been proposed to face the rear 6:00 position, supposedly for stability, but I find myself much more stable perpdendicular to the target or 9:00. I prefer to impact flat with the heel keeping maximum surface area of the ankle bones together to diffuse the impact on them as in standing, which was stated earlier. I started out with the knife edge impact and may still do so on occasion when sparring, but it feels like I would twist the joint on a hard target. I am getting old and worry more about that stuff now!

Kenpobuff

03-03-2005, 02:31 PM

I was taught that there are two types of side kicks, Snapping and Thrusting.

The "Snapping" side kick is usually done as a "minor" strike and sets up another major strike. Primarily designed to distract the opponent in order to redirect their attention away from what's coming. This is usually a low kick to the shins or knee. From a forward bow the kicking leg is end up to knee level and snapped out to the opponent usually no more that waist high and then planted back to the neutral bow position for the next strike or another snap kick. The rear base foot will pivot slightly towards 90 degrees from its original 45 degree angle.

The "Thrusting" side kick is a power kick and many times is used as at "major" strike. This is done with more hip rotation and more pivoting of the rear support leg to make sure the toes are positioned toward 6:00 for stability and anchoring. This type of kick is usually finished by a cross over or cover out to regain a fighting position. It can be performed and then returned to the original neutral bow but takes a lot of body control and balance.

That's how I understand the side kick and its use. I would like to hear others.

Kenpobuff

03-03-2005, 02:39 PM

I forgot to mention that the snapping side kick is usually performed with the lead leg for quick response. To use the rear leg takes to long to bring forward unless you use it to set up a series of kicks or want to close the distance to the opponent with a step through movement.

The thrusting side kick can be used by both the front and rear leg. Using the rear leg makes use of momentum and makes for a powerful kick to the torso area for maximum benefit. Again, it is slower and if you don't set it up properly you can telegraph it to a point the opponent will step aside, then you are committed. Good kick for balance and body control work.

eyebeams

05-25-2005, 01:19 PM

From a CMA perspective:

I don't think it's really possible to generalize what Chinese arts (or "martial sciences" if that floats your boat) do. Northern or Southern? Inside or outside of the Jingwu curriculum? Form oriented or sanshou?

The side kick isn't terribly common in strict Southern CMA. It is a common part of composite systems (I currently study Mizong Luohanquan), and there are both low and high variations. For any given high side kick, coiled action at the waist is important; that is, the waist is prepared for action by turning into the direction of the kick, but hip rotates in a crescent at a perpendicular angle. This is difficult to describe but when done correctly, it creates a springing action. When the hip is followed to execution, though, the waist is primed to express power, making this an excellent distance-bridging technique.

Systems with more concern for root prefer lower kicks and to retain the ability to express power from the waist in any mechanically tenable position. You do give up something with a high side kick.

I find metaphors based on walking inherent suspect. Human bodies do more than walk, and the common metaphor is sterile compared to the actual environmental conditions human beings have adapted to, few of which have to do with level ground. Generally, if you could put your hips into pulling at a given height (for example, the way you would naturally align your hips at a tree branch to hook and yank yourself up), you can do it to push/kick. Taekwondo has some excellent drills to test this principle by combining kicks that use opposing hip actions (hook/roundhouse, for instance). Generally, if you cannot maintain hip alignment for both techniques, you are kicking too high.

BruceCalkins

05-28-2005, 04:55 AM

Rotating (Not Spinning Side Kick) 10:00

Side Snap Kick 9:00

Side Thrust Kick 6:00

SK101

02-16-2007, 01:17 AM

The kicking foot should generally be parallel to the floor. If the toes of the kicking foot are higher than the heel, it isn't a sidekick anymore.

Our style teaches us to always use the heel for a sidekick. I know some styles teach you to use the "knife edge" of the foot, but I don't understand why that is. It seems to me that using your foot that way could be useful for strikes to soft tissue targets, but the heel works just as well or better.

The target generally determines the part of the foot that is ideal to hit with.
When hitting the solar plexus the heel fits much better than the blade. When hitting the throat the blade fits better.

Blade - Floating ribs, throat, back of knee.
Heel - Floating ribs(both work here for different reasons), solar plexus, spine, ceribellum, temple.

LawDog

02-16-2007, 11:01 AM

I believe the 06:00 position is the best one.
*With your supporting foot in this position there is no chance of a joint lockup at your hip joint. This will allow proper rotation of your hip to that you can line up the proper leg muscle groups that are to be used for the kick.
*When you extend a leg you must counter balance the weight of your leg. This is usually done by leaning your torso away from the extended leg. For the above the waist kicks with your foot in any other position other then the 06:00 position you will be leaning over the side of your foot. It is easier to maintain control of your balance by leaning over the toes instead of leaning of the side of your foot.
*The ankle joint will not go into lock with the foot in the 06:00 position.
*The lower the thrust kick the less of a body lean you will have so the 06:00 position will not be as critical as the hight, above waist area type kicks.

Josh Oakley

02-17-2007, 06:50 AM

My foot tends to be either at six or nine, depending on the timing, intent, and power of the kick, as well as what I'm following the kick up with, and how I'm choosing to bend my torso. If I'm attempting a high-power sidekick, using my whole bodyweight, my foot's at six. If I'm attempting a quick sidekick leading into some other combo, I place my foot at 9.

IWishToLearn

02-19-2007, 11:05 PM

I don't use side kicks. I only use heel kicks - because side kicks leave the groin vulnerable. When I do - the supporting leg is pointed to 6:00 and it's a thrusting kick.

Jdokan

02-20-2007, 10:24 PM

I try to use side kicks two ways: the blade is used as a snapping strike (no pivoting involved) that stings or stuns the person with the intent to leave them where they are..but manipulated typically a folding type kick...Whereas the thrust kick uses the pivot (putting the hip into the kick) developing greatest power. The intent is to drive the person away...

exile

02-25-2007, 08:59 PM

I use both rear-leg and front-leg side kicks, supporting foot heel always aimed at the target (i.e, 6:00 kick). And my intent (i.e., what I'm training for) is a mid-to-low kick that will damage one of my attacker's limbs so badly that he will be unable to continue. A knee joint blowout or abdominal trauma inflcted on my assailant... that's my training ideal for kicks. I do train high kicks as a balance test, though; but the objective, always, is to inflict severe middle or lower body damage.

Doc

02-25-2007, 10:24 PM

Bill Lear

02-26-2007, 01:12 AM

A "side kick" that utilizes the side of the foot, or knifedge, is anatomically a negative when utilized higher than your own hip flexors. This muscle group (Iliopsoas) has laterally an effective, limited range without damage. This kick, in general, does not exist in the Chinese Arts and is a product of other cultural interpretations of the Chinese Arts.

In your opinion, what is the proper striking surface when utilizing a side kick that is executed higher than one's hip-flexors?

LawDog

03-04-2007, 06:20 PM

exile

03-22-2007, 11:59 AM

A "side kick" that utilizes the side of the foot, or knifedge, is anatomically a negative when utilized higher than your own hip flexors. This muscle group (Iliopsoas) has laterally an effective, limited range without damage. This kick, in general, does not exist in the Chinese Arts and is a product of other cultural interpretations of the Chinese Arts.

There's another thread that's started up on this in the meantime. The overwhelming consensus there seems to be: use the central part of the heel. In terms of both cushioning/density and striking surface alignment to the supporting (skeletal) structure, it seems by far the best impact surface.

zDom

05-01-2007, 01:54 PM

There's another thread that's started up on this in the meantime. The overwhelming consensus there seems to be: use the central part of the heel. In terms of both cushioning/density and striking surface alignment to the supporting (skeletal) structure, it seems by far the best impact surface.

IMO, the calcaneous (heel bone) is THE best part of your body to hit something with — both the bottom of your heel and the back of your heel.

If you ever get a chance to look at a human skeleton, take the time to check it out. The calcaneous looks like rock as compared with the slender sticks and pebbles found elsewhere, AND it is located conveniently at the end of a limb.

Doc

08-13-2007, 04:00 PM

exile

08-13-2007, 04:14 PM

I agree.

(just stumbled upon this thread. No notification again)

Hey Doc, glad to hear we're on the same page—and did you just score your first gold star?

Doc

08-13-2007, 04:18 PM

Doc,
In your discription of a side kick you referenced the hip flexors. From your discription I am getting the impression that the leg action in this side kick utilizes tha same type of leg action that is found in the half round house kick. Is this correct?
The reason that I ask is that in some of the Kenpo systems two types of side kicks are used.
1) The kicking leg uses a round house type action,
2) The kicking leg uses a thrusting type action.
Our teminology is probably different, I hope that you will get the meaning of my question.
Thanks,
Sorry I don't understand. The way I was taught there are several applications of what we call a "side kick." The structural physical support for execution between snapping and thrusting are identical. The primary differences are between the portion of the foot used to make contact, which also dictates "how" it may be used. The "knife-edge" is never used above the waist, and is anatomically dedicated to striking below the waist. The heel is the opposite although it may be used below the waist. The angle of the support foot is critical, especially in thrusting, and is always 45-degree relative.