SD/Traditional TKD and Sport Training!!!

[Gorilla]

The last 2 years we have seen an influx of students from traditional/SD TKD schools attempt to train with us after the US Open. Some of them have talent but they almost never have the Cardio to last one class. We have had one or two last a week but none ever stay longer. They always leave. I hope with a great appreciation for the hard work it takes to compete at a high level in Sport TKD.

[dancingalone]

Gorilla, you must be bored and trying to get a rise out of some people.

[ATC]

The last 2 years we have seen an influx of students from traditional/SD TKD schools attempt to train with us after the US Open. Some of them have talent but they almost never have the Cardio to last one class. We have had one or two last a week but none ever stay longer. They always leave. I hope with a great appreciation for the hard work it takes to compete at a high level in Sport TKD.
I understand what you are saying Gorilla.

Even our students from our SD and regular classes can't hang with our comp team classes when it comes to endurance. We had to make two comp team classes due to the kids in the original comp team being so far advanced endurance and skills wise, that you could not just simply add a new student into the class. They just could not handle it. They would eventually quit.

So now when new students join the comp team they join what we call the pre comp team class. Then after some time they move up to the comp team class. This pre comp class is really toned down endurance wise and ramps up. Seem to be working as we started with 8 students and we still have the same 8 students 8 weeks later.

[ATC]

Gorilla, you must be bored and trying to get a rise out of some people.I just think he was trying to show that even though what many are doing is only a sport it still takes a high level of endurance and training to do the sport, explaining his last sentance.


They always leave, I hope with a great appreciation for the hard work it takes to compete at a high level in Sport TKD.
It may be the period that should have been a comma that threw you off.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[d1jinx]

while training in general has always been physical, competition has always been heavily dependent on cardio. The MAIN reason I stopped competing is I started loosing because I got tired, not becasue the other person was the better fighter. But I found as I got older, I had to work even harder to maintain enough stamina to compete at the level I had before. And because I have a career that does not allow for the daily conditioning needed, I just couldn't keep up.

Oh how I wish , I could spend the days just training and working out. Why cant i be rich and not have to work for money. Why cant my job be exercising myself?????????????????

even if i could spare 2 hours in the morning, and 2 hours in the evening.... I would be better.

Life sux.

[JWLuiza]

I wish I had the discipline to build cardio. I barely have enough time for keeping my technique from completely falling apart.

[dancingalone]

I just think he was trying to show that even though what many are doing is only a sport it still takes a high level of endurance and training to do the sport, explaining his last sentance.


No one disputes that. The way in which Gorilla chose to say it seemed like it was a gratuitous dig to me though. Not sure what the purpose of it was other than to rekindle the sport vs. traditional wars around here which I would think most of us are tired of.

Look at it this way. If I or someone else wrote a post about how some sport guys came to our class and couldn't even last a week because they didn't know how to fall, didn't know how to punch a makiwara, didn't understand form applications beyond a child's conception.... wouldn't some take it as a dig?

I've got nothing against Gorilla or anyone else here. Just tired of the silly bickering and would suggest to all that some moderation in thought and writing would go a far ways to keeping a peaceful TKD forum as Bob suggested with that sticky post at the top.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Another sport vs. art thread?

Please. We have like five hundred of these things. You have been in on enough of them recently that you cannot say that you didn't know.

Fine.

Hard training in preparation for a timed athletic event that is 99% mid to high kicking techniques and may require to fight in several matches will almost always produce superior cardio results to training for a violent encounter.

Hard training in preparation for a violent encounter that is mostly hands and mental fortitude will almost always produce superior skills specifically geared towards ending the fight quickly (either via escape or incapacitation of the attacker) as compared for training for a timed athletic event.

So long as your attacker is unarmed and alone, either student will likely fare well in a violent encounter, though if the former isn't careful with those high kicks, he or she may find themselves in serious trouble if the leg is grabbed.

If the attacker has a knife, my money is on the latter, but in all seriousness, the best defense against a lone guy with a knife is distance. Thus the track star is superior to both.

If the attacker has buddies, chances are that both are equally equipped (or ill equipped) unless the latter has involved a solid amount of hard training against multiple opponents.

If the attacker and buddies have knives, both are equally screwed.

If the attacker is alone and has a gun, both are equally screwed.

If you want to do well in tournaments, train your backside off and get good at it.

If you want to survive violent encounters, train your backside off and most importantly, develop your common sense, awareness and verbal skills. They will serve you far better than either athletic prowess or SD techniques.

One last note: the guy or gal who knows his or her personal limitations, who exercises common sense, and acts accordingly will fare the best overall. Best of all, no martial training is really needed for that.

Daniel

[StudentCarl]

Funny you should toss this out.

In the more hardcore self-defense forums one common discussion is the issue of "attributes vs. skills"--whether one's physical attibutes are more decisive than skills in deciding real fights where there aren't weight classes and equal initiative.

I think some traditional martial arts students overrate the value of technical skills and underrate fitness, particularly endurance. Those who have been in real fights lasting more than 30 seconds can get completely gassed. Lack of endurance destroys agility, quickness and eventually will.
"Fatigue makes cowards of us all."

I also think that those who lack experience with the full-contact nature of our sport have less experience with fighting hurt, an essential part of developing mental toughness.

Carl

[dancingalone]

I also think that those who lack experience with the full-contact nature of our sport have less experience with fighting hurt, an essential part of developing mental toughness.


I hope you don't mean to suggest that Olympic style sparring is the only full-contact type of sparring available in TKD. People from my TKD lineage (Rhee/Steen) would decidedly disagree.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I understand what you are saying Gorilla.

Even our students from our SD and regular classes can't hang with our comp team classes when it comes to endurance. We had to make two comp team classes due to the kids in the original comp team being so far advanced endurance and skills wise, that you could not just simply add a new student into the class. They just could not handle it. They would eventually quit.
Not to point out the obvious, but of course they can't.

Comp teams, good ones at least, train as much in cardio as they do in technique. It all has to do with how much training you do and what you are training in. Spend three hours a day four days a week training in competition techniques and cardio and you should be better than the guys transitioning in. If you are not, then you're doing something wrong.

There is a huge difference between training for an almost all kicking athletic event and training to handle yourself in case you're mugged. Different tools for different jobs.

Daniel

[StudentCarl]

If I or someone else wrote a post about how some sport guys came to our class and couldn't even last a week because they didn't know how to fall, didn't know how to punch a makiwara, didn't understand form applications beyond a child's conception.... wouldn't some take it as a dig?

I like the diversity of opinion here. Endurance and toughness are built over time. I hope that the guests at Gorilla's school were welcomed, treated with respect, and encouraged to return. I hope that Gorilla's master encourages further sharing with the other school (perhaps a visit there), as the other master likely has new teachings to offer Gorilla and his peers. These other students are to be praised for taking the risk to try something new for them.

Please share more from the perspective of the hardcore traditional training perspective--I'd like to know what I might be missing so I can learn more about it and perhaps incorporate more of it into my training.

I think we're all limited in some ways because we are like kids in families--what we learn depends on who brings us up, our small town or our neighborhood. It's great that we all have identity, but maturing requires us to see how we are common with others, not just the differences.

Carl

[Daniel Sullivan]

I also think that those who lack experience with the full-contact nature of our sport have less experience with fighting hurt, an essential part of developing mental toughness.
I realize that it is full contact, but really, it isn't. Your padded up in all legal areas of contact and hand techniques, which are generally faster and harder to defend against, are practically nonexistent and illegal to the head or face. Want real full contact? Try Kyokushin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdV2tvv1u3I

Or better yet,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrD5WadBtUI&feature=related

I agree that mental toughness is definitely a quality in competitive athletes, at least as it relates to competition. Likely, it overlaps many areas outside of competition as well.

I also 100% agree with you regarding the lack of emphasis on fitness, and this is not confined to traditional schools.

Having done both "our sport" and been in real fights, I will say hands down that there is little, if any correlation between WTF sport taekwondo and a fight.

Daniel

[StudentCarl]

I hope you don't mean to suggest that Olympic style sparring is the only full-contact type of sparring available in TKD. People from my TKD lineage (Rhee/Steen) would decidedly disagree.

No, not at all. I see full contact training as essential to the development of a martial artist. There is challenge to do it in a way that minimizes major damage so the cost isn't prohibitive.

Carl

[StudentCarl]

having done both "our sport" and been in real fights, i will say hands down that there is little, if any correlation between wtf sport taekwondo and a fight.

Daniel

+1

[dortiz]

I would bet if your top students came to my Hapkido class and instead of easing them in I went full throttle on them they would run away as well.
On the other hand I would not do that as I know they need to ramp up to the level of training at what I am doing.
You may not mean it to sound this way but it sure paints a bad picture about your program.
My sons TKD school took 13 meddles in Texas. They have some top players yet offer an open program and a great learning environment. I am proud to teach there and have my son be part of their team.

Dave O.

[Gorilla]

Gorilla, you must be bored and trying to get a rise out of some people.

Yea...the BBS has not been interesting as of late!

The people who come to our Comp Team to train because they decided to watch @ the US Open and now think that they can do Sport TKD @ a High Level get a dose of reality.

I love self defense and traditional Martial Arts and so do all the people that we train with! I have never heard a Sport TKD person say a bad word about self def.

And for an update one of the New Students came back for his second week. Our Master did an hour of Self Defense Training. The team really likes it. A good change of pace!

[Manny]

I wish I had the discipline to build cardio. I barely have enough time for keeping my technique from completely falling apart.

Man..... you took the words out of my mouth.

Manny

[ATC]

Not to point out the obvious, but of course they can't.

Comp teams, good ones at least, train as much in cardio as they do in technique. It all has to do with how much training you do and what you are training in. Spend three hours a day four days a week training in competition techniques and cardio and you should be better than the guys transitioning in. If you are not, then you're doing something wrong.

There is a huge difference between training for an almost all kicking athletic event and training to handle yourself in case you're mugged. Different tools for different jobs.

DanielYes that is exactly what I was saying. That is why we started the pre comp team, so new members could transition in. Had to open the dojan a couple of hours earlier for this but it sure helped.

Edit: New members = new competing members not new students. New members on the comp team are people we hand pick that we feel are pretty good and we think they would make good competitors. Even a non competing TKD student has some level of conditioning, just not at the same level as those that compete.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have never heard a Sport TKD person say a bad word about self def.

You'd have to dig through the threads here. There was some pretty strong mudslinging in both directions from a small group of posters.

The biggest gripe that most traditional folks have with the WTF sport is that it does not really resemble any form of taekwondo. It is not that it is bad, but that it really is not, on a technical level, related to Kukki TKD any longer. It is so specialized and so different that it really deserves its own name.

Not a dig at the sport; I happen to enjoy it.:)

Daniel

[dancingalone]

The people who come to our Comp Team to train because they decided to watch @ the US Open and now think that they can do Sport TKD @ a High Level get a dose of reality.

I love self defense and traditional Martial Arts and so do all the people that we train with! I have never heard a Sport TKD person say a bad word about self def.


I think your initial and subsequent posts are ill-guided, and for the sake of peace on this board, we should leave it at that and just let the topic drop.

[Gorilla]

You'd have to dig through the threads here. There was some pretty strong mudslinging in both directions from a small group of posters.

The biggest gripe that most traditional folks have with the WTF sport is that it does not really resemble any form of taekwondo. It is not that it is bad, but that it really is not, on a technical level, related to Kukki TKD any longer. It is so specialized and so different that it really deserves its own name.

Not a dig at the sport; I happen to enjoy it.:)

Daniel

I have not been one of them! I don't think that any of the current posters who do sport tkd have either! I respect SD and would not support anyone who would ridicule it.

I agree with your 2nd point


What should the name be?

[Gorilla]

I think your initial and subsequent posts are ill-guided, and for the sake of peace on this board, we should leave it at that and just let the topic drop.

I don't agree. I can have a civil discussion. What is wrong with healthy debate. It can be entertaining and on occasion good things come from it.

My posts have been civil.

Don't be afraid! I think that we can have a debate on a controversial topic.

[d1jinx]

reqardless of if its Traditional or olympic/sport, cardio training is tough on ANYONE who isnt use to doing it. I think that should be the main point.

How each style physically trains, not for what, but how, is the real topic.

who cares if its for sport or SD. The best self defense is to outrun your attacker.... so does anyone require your students to run?

About once a month, we run 2miles on the track. AND I HATE RUNNING.
If we had access to a pool, that would be a requirement too.

[dancingalone]

I don't agree. I can have a civil discussion. What is wrong with healthy debate. It can be entertaining and on occasion good things come from it.

My posts have been civil.

Don't be afraid! I think that we can have a debate on a controversial topic.

I can be too. The problem is that others can't be so detached from something they obviously love and it always leads to some feathers being ruffled and then the moderators have to come down and clean things up.

Besides, aren't you bored of the sport vs. traditional debates? One can only say the same things over and over again so many times you know. You can search for the ample threads if you want to revisit it.

I'll say it's funny how a sport vs. traditional thread always draws a few hundred views at least, but when someone tries to discuss anything serious about technique, the popularity is much less.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yea...the BBS has not been interesting as of late!

The people who come to our Comp Team to train because they decided to watch @ the US Open and now think that they can do Sport TKD @ a High Level get a dose of reality.
Those who crossed over to the comp team; did they have an attitude that they could 'just do it' or did they simply decide to try it out and were not as good at it as those who had been on the team for a while? Which might I add should not have been a surprise to anyone.

If the latter, then you do them and your school a disservice in presenting it the way that you did in the above quote.

Also, are there tryouts for the competition team or do the instructors just let anyone in who wishes to participate?


I love self defense and traditional Martial Arts and so do all the people that we train with! I have never heard a Sport TKD person say a bad word about self def.
See my previous post regarding this.


And for an update one of the New Students came back for his second week. Our Master did an hour of Self Defense Training. The team really likes it. A good change of pace!
One of the beauties of taekwondo is that it is so multifaceted that it has more than just sport, self defense, or fitness.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't agree. I can have a civil discussion. What is wrong with healthy debate. It can be entertaining and on occasion good things come from it.

My posts have been civil.

Civil, but baiting. If I were intending to begin a healthy debate, I would not have opened it up with such a cocky op. Not to mention the plethora of threads already existing on this topic, any number of which could have been revisited, and most of the recent ones you have been involved with.

Sorry, but your OP comes off as poking at individuals in threads you have participated in previously.


Don't be afraid! I think that we can have a debate on a controversial topic.
If you think that Dancing is afraid of debate on a controversial topic, you don't know Dancing very well.:D

Daniel

[JWLuiza]

I know I love a good argument, but in my old age I'm finding more and more it becomes less important what other people do. But internet forums are a breeding ground for "X vs. Y" threads. But those are SOOOOO uninformative.

Just think of how awesome Reese's Pieces or Peanut Butter Cups are.

Anyway, I think I'll take this thread as a challenge to get better cardio. I know it can only help me!

[Gorilla]

Those who crossed over to the comp team; did they have an attitude that they could 'just do it' or did they simply decide to try it out and were not as good at it as those who had been on the team for a while? Which might I add should not have been a surprise to anyone.

If the latter, then you do them and your school a disservice in presenting it the way that you did in the above quote.

Also, are there tryouts for the competition team or do the instructors just let anyone in who wishes to participate?


See my previous post regarding this.


One of the beauties of taekwondo is that it is so multifaceted that it has more than just sport, self defense, or fitness.

Daniel

They came in off the streets (Black Belts). They are from other schools and they went to the US Open(to watch). They watch the fights. Think that Sport TKD is Easy and want to train with us "it can't be that hard". We just had one come back for the second week!!! We are very happy about this. He is very unusual. We usually have 5-10 people do this every year.

[Daniel Sullivan]

So were they put into training with the competition team right away? You indicated that they came over to train with the comp team. Were they allowed to actually train with the comp team or join it?

That is why I asked about the policy for getting onto the comp team. Guys coming in off of the street should be evaluated in normal classes to determine if they should even be wearing a black belt and then trained accordingly.

This probably is not the case, but from your post, it sounds like they came in and signed up and were training with the comp team from day one.

So the question that then begs to be asked is why they were showing up at your door to begin with? I train at a school and hold a black belt. Why would I head down the road to another school that teaches the same art when I already have commitments where I am?

What answers come to mind lead me to the conclusion that they are not a good indicator of quality students from an SD school, while I can only assume that your comp team is the best of your sport school.

Daniel

[Gorilla]

So were they put into training with the competition team right away? You indicated that they came over to train with the comp team. Were they allowed to actually train with the comp team or join it?

That is why I asked about the policy for getting onto the comp team. Guys coming in off of the street should be evaluated in normal classes to determine if they should even be wearing a black belt and then trained accordingly.

This probably is not the case, but from your post, it sounds like they came in and signed up and were training with the comp team from day one.

So the question that then begs to be asked is why they were showing up at your door to begin with? I train at a school and hold a black belt. Why would I head down the road to another school that teaches the same art when I already have commitments where I am?

What answers come to mind lead me to the conclusion that they are not a good indicator of quality students from an SD school, while I can only assume that your comp team is the best of your sport school.

Daniel

We don't have Normal Classes! We are a Comp Team Only. We don't have a sign up process you come you train if you make it you start paying it is very informal. We get students by word of mouth and referrals from other instructors. If the student stays they must get the OK from their instructor to train with us. The 5 people that came this time all came from the US Open. They watched our students fight discovered that we are from Vegas got our location and showed up. Of the 5... 1 has stayed for a second week...we hope he sticks seems to be a nice guy.

Mostly the people that stay are referrals from other instructors.

Our team seems to always be at about 20 athletes. Ranging from National Team Members to State level athletes.

[Gorilla]

I would bet if your top students came to my Hapkido class and instead of easing them in I went full throttle on them they would run away as well.
On the other hand I would not do that as I know they need to ramp up to the level of training at what I am doing.
You may not mean it to sound this way but it sure paints a bad picture about your program.
My sons TKD school took 13 meddles in Texas. They have some top players yet offer an open program and a great learning environment. I am proud to teach there and have my son be part of their team.

Dave O.

What is the name of your school.

We are a Comp Team only. We don't have the time to ease people in. We let people know up front most don't believe it. Our team is only willing to grow with people who are totally committed. It is a great environment for those who want to work very hard and excel.

[Daniel Sullivan]

What is the name of your school.

We are a Comp Team only. We don't have the time to ease people in. We let people know up front most don't believe it. Our team is only willing to grow with people who are totally committed. It is a great environment for those who want to work very hard and excel.
Then your thread is based on a false premise. You don't train anybody. Not up from beginner at least. You aren't a school. You don't teach. You don't have instructors, not in the sense that a regular studio does. You have coaches (you may call them 'master' or instructor, but on a team, a coach is really their function, regardless of title). The goal of a competition team is to win competitions, not teach, again, at least not in the same sense that a regular studio does.

Blackbelts off the street are not a fair representation of SD training. Who's to say that they were even really black belts? And if so, who's to say that they were not from some McDojo that claims to do SD but really is just a glorified after-school program? And your team is hardly representative of the typical KKW school that does WTF sparring and how they train.

As the details come out, it becomes clear that the healthy debate you mentioned is not what you were really after. You presented the details in a less than up front way in your op for the sole purpose of poking at one member or a small group of members on this site.

And that, sir is trolling.

Daniel

[Manny]

You'd have to dig through the threads here. There was some pretty strong mudslinging in both directions from a small group of posters.

The biggest gripe that most traditional folks have with the WTF sport is that it does not really resemble any form of taekwondo. It is not that it is bad, but that it really is not, on a technical level, related to Kukki TKD any longer. It is so specialized and so different that it really deserves its own name.

Not a dig at the sport; I happen to enjoy it.:)

Daniel

I think there is something about this, I think WTF TKD would be called WTF Tae Kwon Do or Sport Tae Kwon Do and The Martial TKD would be called TKD Kukiwon or Traditional TKD.

If I had my own dojang it will be advertized as Traditional TKD cause this is the thing I want to teach, yes WTF TKD can be a small part of the curriculum but my dojang would have MA/SD aproach mostly.

Manny

[Gorilla]

Then your thread is based on a false premise. You don't train anybody. Not up from beginner at least. You aren't a school. You don't teach. You don't have instructors, not in the sense that a regular studio does. You have coaches (you may call them 'master' or instructor, but on a team, a coach is really their function, regardless of title). The goal of a competition team is to win competitions, not teach, again, at least not in the same sense that a regular studio does.

Blackbelts off the street are not a fair representation of SD training. Who's to say that they were even really black belts? And if so, who's to say that they were not from some McDojo that claims to do SD but really is just a glorified after-school program? And your team is hardly representative of the typical KKW school that does WTF sparring and how they train.

As the details come out, it becomes clear that the healthy debate you mentioned is not what you were really after. You presented the details in a less than up front way in your op for the sole purpose of poking at one member or a small group of members on this site.

And that, sir is trolling.

Daniel


I never said that we were a school. I have always said that we were a comp team. I did not mislead anyone.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Fair enough, though you did not say at the outset that you are a team only; without qualification from you or knowing about your team (I am sure Terry does because he is very informed and connected in the athletics end of things) it is only natural to assume that you were a school with a competition team. You are, to my knowledge, the only person posting on this subject who is apparently not connected to a school. The fact that you have no tryouts confuses the issue further.

Even so, it is still a disingenuous comparison and it was still done for the sole purpose of poking another member or members. Nor am I the only one to make that observation. That is why I said that what you were doing amounts to trolling.

I suppose I could respond to your OP by saying that you should see how long your comp team guy lasts against a guy from a hard core SD school with minimal rules and full contact, but I think that that would be a silly and childish response.

The whole contention of the SD oriented posters who dislike the sport is that sport taekwondo is not self defense, and in the case of the WTF rule set, really bears no resemblance to the Kukki taekwondo that it is connected to. This is almost never addressed by the folks who press the sport on the board here.

Seeing as healthy debate is what you said you are after, how do you address this?

Daniel

[Gorilla]

1. I suppose I could respond to your OP by saying that you should see how long your comp team guy lasts against a guy from a hard core SD school with minimal rules and full contact, but I think that that would be a silly and childish response.

2. The whole contention of the SD oriented posters who dislike the sport is that sport taekwondo is not self defense, and in the case of the WTF rule set, really bears no resemblance to the Kukki taekwondo that it is connected to. This is almost never addressed by the folks who press the sport on the board here.

Seeing as healthy debate is what you said you are after, how do you address this?

My response

1. Some would do well others not so well. We do some SD training but it is limited. Most of our students come from tough backgrounds so they learned to fight out of need.


2. I agree with you! Most of what is done in sport tkd is not applicable in SD. The cardio it develops and the ability to adjust to an attacker can be of help. I have said this many times in multiple posts. Sport TKD and SD are for the most part Apples and Oranges. I respect both.

I hope that you will give me the benefit of the doubt in the future.

[MSUTKD]

Gas on the fire.......

If you are not in shape YOU CANNOT FIGHT......PERIOD'

[Daniel Sullivan]

Gas on the fire.......

If you are not in shape YOU CANNOT FIGHT......PERIOD'
Not gas on fire, but this definitely has some truth to it.

I would not go so far as to say 'period', though I would say that being out of shape will definitely hamper one's ability to fight.

The degree to which the person is out of shape will determine the degree to which it hampers them, as well as how 'in shape' they were before losing that tone.

I have no doubt that Seagal can still fight. But he is also out of shape and certainly would fight better if he were in shape.

Daniel

[MSUTKD]

Well said Dan......well said.

[Daniel Sullivan]

1. I suppose I could respond to your OP by saying that you should see how long your comp team guy lasts against a guy from a hard core SD school with minimal rules and full contact, but I think that that would be a silly and childish response.

2. The whole contention of the SD oriented posters who dislike the sport is that sport taekwondo is not self defense, and in the case of the WTF rule set, really bears no resemblance to the Kukki taekwondo that it is connected to. This is almost never addressed by the folks who press the sport on the board here.

Seeing as healthy debate is what you said you are after, how do you address this?

My response

1. Some would do well others not so well. We do some SD training but it is limited. Most of our students come from tough backgrounds so they learned to fight out of need.
Fair answer. While I do not subscribe to the idea that a guy who does sport taekwondo will somehow try to make a self defense scenario into a sporting event (as some do maintain), I do think that the person who trains towards a specific goal consistently will be the best suited to achieve that goal. Thus the guys and gals who train sport TKD as their main or only program I would expect to excel and to do better than a guy or gal from a traditional school. On the other hand, if you spend all of your classes training to deal with a less constricted attack scenario, you will be better equipped to do so than the 80-100% sport trained athlete. This is assuming that both the traditional and the sport student meeting or exceeding an acceptable level of fitness, including cardio.

Of course as the saying goes, on any given Sunday....


2. I agree with you! Most of what is done in sport tkd is not applicable in SD. The cardio it develops and the ability to adjust to an attacker can be of help. I have said this many times in multiple posts. Sport TKD and SD are for the most part Apples and Oranges. I respect both.
Given that taekwondo was developed as a martial art for use protecting one's self and is actually more hands heavy in terms of technique count and does not resemble in any meaningful way WTF sport taekwondo, and given that it came first, do you think that WTF sport taekwondo should even be labeled taekwondo?

No right or wrong answer; I have no investment in the answer, though I do personally think that it should be called something else.

My reason is that Kukki taekwondo has a much, much larger curriculum set than WTF sport, most of which is inapplicable in WTF sport. Chang Hon resembles WTF sport even less and is older than Kukki TKD. I would assume that Songham TKD has the same dichotomy with ATA and WTF sport.

Thoughts?

Daniel

[dancingalone]

Gas on the fire.......

If you are not in shape YOU CANNOT FIGHT......PERIOD'

I'll echo Daniel's thought. Some of the toughest guys out there have no cardio endurance at all, but they can take a punch and they can end a fight in seconds. Obviously, being in great shape is preferable however, especially if you're a competitor in the sporting arena.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Mentioning Seagal again, compare Seagal now to Dolph Lundgren now. Seagal can likely still fight, but really, he is not anything close to what he was back in his heyday.

Lundgren, on the other hand, is still about eighty percent there.

Both men can still fight, but Lundgren can certainly fight for a sustained period that is likely on par with most younger guys. Seagal I would gather would be spent fairly quickly against an opponent that he couldn't dispatch in less than a minute.

Daniel

[dancingalone]

Mentioning Seagal again, compare Seagal now to Dolph Lundgren now. Seagal can likely still fight, but really, he is not anything close to what he was back in his heyday.

Lundgren, on the other hand, is still about eighty percent there.

Both men can still fight, but Lundgren can certainly fight for a sustained period that is likely on par with most younger guys. Seagal I would gather would be spent fairly quickly against an opponent that he couldn't dispatch in less than a minute.

Daniel

Good examples. Think too about the street fighters who became famous through MMA like Tank Abbott or Kimbo Slice. Both guys have questionable cardio but if they catch you at the beginning of a fight with a solid punch, you're out.

It's a bad idea to underestimate the fat guy in a violent altercation just because he's carrying around some extra weight. Hmm, come to think of it, I've seen many a bouncer with a spare tire on his waist too.

[ATC]

Good examples. Think too about the street fighters who became famous through MMA like Tank Abbott or Kimbo Slice. Both guys have questionable cardio but if they catch you at the beginning of a fight with a solid punch, you're out.

It's a bad idea to underestimate the fat guy in a violent altercation just because he's carrying around some extra weight. Hmm, come to think of it, I've seen many a bouncer with a spare tire on his waist too.I agree to some extent. Most of the people they faught were not the best fighters nor in the best of shape either. That is why their endurance got exposed once they faced off with better competition. Both are strong men so yes againt less experienced and weaker fighters they look good. But once they got someone with even just better endurance they looked pretty bad quite soon.

[dortiz]

Still talking ring and rules versus real life minute or two of exchanging blows.

There is no arguing that the better fit you are the better you can fight.
The better fit you are the better you can fight in the ring. (you must be!!)

What is out there and worth considering is that a 275lb big boy that cant make three rounds, can beat the crap out of most folks in under tow minutes in a room or an alley.

Just saying...

[ATC]

Still talking ring and rules versus real life minute or two of exchanging blows.

There is no arguing that the better fit you are the better you can fight.
The better fit you are the better you can fight in the ring. (you must be!!)

What is out there and worth considering is that a 275lb big boy that cant make three rounds, can beat the crap out of most folks in under tow minutes in a room or an alley.

Just saying...I don't know about that. I have had my share of high school and college bar fights in my day and the big boys (really over weight) were some of the easiest fights.

Now I am sure that there are some big boys that are in pretty decent shape. I have seen them, but again they are in shape, just big but in good cardio shape.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Kind of a mixed bag. Most overweight people are just overweight and in general, out of shape in terms of strength and agility as well. There are those exceptions though, and unfortunately, for the most part they just look like any other out of shape person.

Daniel

[Gorilla]

Given that taekwondo was developed as a martial art for use protecting one's self and is actually more hands heavy in terms of technique count and does not resemble in any meaningful way WTF sport taekwondo, and given that it came first, do you think that WTF sport taekwondo should even be labeled taekwondo?

No right or wrong answer; I have no investment in the answer, though I do personally think that it should be called something else.

My reason is that Kukki taekwondo has a much, much larger curriculum set than WTF sport, most of which is inapplicable in WTF sport. Chang Hon resembles WTF sport even less and is older than Kukki TKD. I would assume that Songham TKD has the same dichotomy with ATA and WTF sport.

Thoughts?

Daniel[/QUOTE]

What it is called is of no concern to me. If they wanted to change the name I would be fine with it.

What should the name be?

[ATC]

Given that taekwondo was developed as a martial art for use protecting one's self and is actually more hands heavy in terms of technique count and does not resemble in any meaningful way WTF sport taekwondo, and given that it came first, do you think that WTF sport taekwondo should even be labeled taekwondo?

No right or wrong answer; I have no investment in the answer, though I do personally think that it should be called something else.

My reason is that Kukki taekwondo has a much, much larger curriculum set than WTF sport, most of which is inapplicable in WTF sport. Chang Hon resembles WTF sport even less and is older than Kukki TKD. I would assume that Songham TKD has the same dichotomy with ATA and WTF sport.

Thoughts?

Daniel

What it is called is of no concern to me. If they wanted to change the name I would be fine with it.

What should the name be?Tae Do?

[Daniel Sullivan]

What it is called is of no concern to me. If they wanted to change the name I would be fine with it.

What should the name be?

Instead of Taekwondo, how about whatever the Korean term for 'foot fist sport' instead? It would be taekwon-something.

You many not care what it is called, and personally, neither do I. But it is fairly obvious that the two are pretty well divorced from one another. Traditional guys get tired of telling people "that's not what we do" when they hear the jabs at the sport.

And I am sure that the sport guys get tired of hearing, "that won't work on the street" when it is obvious that WTF sport is sport, not some kind of teh deadly SD system.

Nobody confuses Kendo with Kenjutsu. Nobody applies the same value judgments to them because they are different entities.

Unfortunately, not only does the sport and art of taekwondo have the same name, they pretty much have the same organization. Yes, the KKW and WTF are separate orgs, but WTF only recognizes KKW rank and the two organizations are pretty well joined at the hip. Try explaining to someone outside of TKD where one ends and the other begins.

Two different systems with two different names under one org would not be a problem. Nobody confuses Jo-do with kendo, even though both are a part of the FIK. Likewise, Taekwon-sport and Taekwondo could certainly coexist under one organization.

That would eliminate the "that's not real taekwondo and your twelve year old shouldn't have a black belt" comments.

Daniel

[Gorilla]

The Funny/Ironic thing about this is that for the last 3 days we have done nothing but self defense. The Team loves it and I suspect that Master Blackburn is trying to break things up a bit because we have been training pretty hard for quite a while. I will ask him tonight. I am curious about his thought process.

[zDom]

Kick-sport, or the equivalent in Korean, would be an appropriate name.

There is very little "-Do" or punching, for that matter, remaining in sport tkd.

Yea, I think kick-sport is the right name for it.

As for the original post, anyone with any education at all in sports education/science will tell you about the specificity principle, that training is HIGHLY specific.

So this anecdote really doesn't even prove you have better cardio fitness — only that you are performing well in the specific activity you train in, as you should

(Not saying these guys don't have great cardio, because without a doubt they DO. I've played around with the game and have first-hand experience with the demand it places on your cardiovascular system.)

But they were on their home turf.

Have those same competitors play with some equivalent-level competitors from another cardio game they aren't familiar with — racquetball, cross country skiing, judo, even basketball — and they aren't going to do so well.

Training is highly specific.

Let me extend a personal invitation to any of your competition team (heck, to anybody here on MT ;)) to visit us for a free workout in our hapkido class should you ever be Southeast Missouri on a Tuesday or Thursday night.

It would be an eye-opening experience.

I won't, however, imply that we are any better than anyone else. Every single one of us first walked onto that mat not being able to do 1/10 of the workout and realize that all it takes to perform like we do is showing up on a regular basis for a couple of years.

The only special thing about us is we keep showing up: week after week, year after year. And that takes a special kind of strength not of body but of mind, of spirit.

[dancingalone]

That's a great point, Scott. A student once remarked to me how tiring it was just to be thrown over and over again as uke and then having to get up time and time again. You'd think it was easy just to have someone else fling you around....

[Gorilla]

Kick-sport, or the equivalent in Korean, would be an appropriate name.

There is very little "-Do" or punching, for that matter, remaining in sport tkd.

Yea, I think kick-sport is the right name for it.

As for the original post, anyone with any education at all in sports education/science will tell you about the specificity principle, that training is HIGHLY specific.

So this anecdote really doesn't even prove you have better cardio fitness — only that you are performing well in the specific activity you train in, as you should

(Not saying these guys don't have great cardio, because without a doubt they DO. I've played around with the game and have first-hand experience with the demand it places on your cardiovascular system.)

But they were on their home turf.

Have those same competitors play with some equivalent-level competitors from another cardio game they aren't familiar with — racquetball, cross country skiing, judo, even basketball — and they aren't going to do so well.

Training is highly specific.

Let me extend a personal invitation to any of your competition team (heck, to anybody here on MT ;)) to visit us for a free workout in our hapkido class should you ever be Southeast Missouri on a Tuesday or Thursday night.

It would be an eye-opening experience.

I won't, however, imply that we are any better than anyone else. Every single one of us first walked onto that mat not being able to do 1/10 of the workout and realize that all it takes to perform like we do is showing up on a regular basis for a couple of years.

The only special thing about us is we keep showing up: week after week, year after year. And that takes a special kind of strength not of body but of mind, of spirit.

I agree with all of what you said. That is why I have a problem with folks who think that they can do sport tkd because it looks easy to them. That is what I was trying to show. It is not easy!!! I don't think that Sport TKD is superior. The people who walked into our school thought that they were superior and found out that it is not as easy as it seems.

The next time that I go home we will try to stop by. I am from SE Kansas and an Alumni of Pitt State. That is why is use the Screen name Gorilla. What city are you in.

[dancingalone]

I agree with all of what you said. That is why I have a problem with folks who think that they can do sport tkd because it looks easy to them. That is what I was trying to show. It is not easy!!! I don't think that Sport TKD is superior. The people who walked into our school thought that they were superior and found out that it is not as easy as it seems.


To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anyone on MT say sport TKD was easy. Some (really only 1 person that I can think of) may have derided it as ineffectual and useless outside of tournaments, but I think everyone here understands how demanding the sport is physically.

[Gorilla]

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anyone on MT say sport TKD was easy. Some (really only 1 person that I can think of) may have derided it as ineffectual and useless outside of tournaments, but I think everyone here understands how demanding the sport is physically.

Great! I am Glad hear that! I understand that people don't like it. I don't like Ice Dancing but I can appreciate the hard work and dedication that it takes to compete at a high level.

Can we all agree? Like the sport or not that it takes allot of hard work and skill to compete in Olympic style TKD at the Highest levels?

[JWLuiza]

Great! I am Glad hear that! I understand that people don't like it. I don't like Ice Dancing but I can appreciate the hard work and dedication that it takes to compete at a high level.

Can we all agree? Like the sport or not that it takes allot of hard work and skill to compete in Olympic style TKD at the Highest levels?


No. I think I could do it. Totally. Just give me 3 months and work out time with Phillip Rhee and James Earl Jones.... gosh, didn't anyone see Best of the Best?!?

Peace of Cake. And they call it an olympic sport.... sheeesh.

(j/k....)

[Daniel Sullivan]

Great! I am Glad hear that! I understand that people don't like it. I don't like Ice Dancing but I can appreciate the hard work and dedication that it takes to compete at a high level.

Can we all agree? Like the sport or not that it takes allot of hard work and skill to compete in Olympic style TKD at the Highest levels?


Since when did we all not agree? With the exception of one or two vocal detractors (who have not posted on this thread), everyone on this board has been saying that since well before you, or for that matter I, joined this site.

Threads specifically designed to take shots at either the sport or the art are just plain silly. One does not compare directly to the other, but because they share the same name, direct comparisons are made and then hotly debated. If we were talking sport TKD and aikido, these topics would never come up.

Really what it comes down to is insecure people who want their blackbelt to be 'the real deal' and feel that a guy with a blackbelt in the the other TKD is a threat to their sense of either athletic accomplishment or their status as a tough guy, depending upon which side of the aisle you happen to be on.

Daniel

[chrispillertkd]

Tae Do?

You drop the "Do" since this type of competition has no more to do with self-improvement than baseball and I think you're on to something.

Pax,

Chris

[zDom]

a high level.

Can we all agree? Like the sport or not that it takes allot of hard work and skill to compete in Olympic style TKD at the Highest levels?


I'll go one better than that: it takes a LOT of hard work to play that game AT ALL without ending up sucking wind and being a wheezing, panting target.

Continuous rounds + full contact (+ wearing that damn hogu and head gear!) = SIGNIFICANTLY increased demand on cardio

than, say, point style sparring with breaking for each point.

[zDom]

You drop the "Do" since this type of competition has no more to do with self-improvement than baseball and I think you're on to something.

Pax,

Chris

I have to agree: from my observation, the "Do" part isn't really stressed among the WTF sport schools.

I'm sure there are exceptions, and I may have just got the wrong impression from the few I have visited, but that IS the impression I came away with.

[ATC]

You drop the "Do" since this type of competition has no more to do with self-improvement than baseball and I think you're on to something.

Pax,

Chris
There is much to be learned through competition, baseball or any other sport.

[Daniel Sullivan]

There is much to be learned through competition, baseball or any other sport.
Sure. But that is not the same as 'do' as it is in Eastern martial arts.

You can learn a lot of good things from many activities, sports, and hobbies, but that does not make them a 'do.'

Daniel

[ATC]

Sure. But that is not the same as 'do' as it is in Eastern martial arts.

You can learn a lot of good things from many activities, sports, and hobbies, but that does not make them a 'do.'

Daniel
True Daniel, but the OP stated that it had nothing to do with self improvement. Sure it does. He also stated that baseball also had nothing to do with self improvement. I beg to differ. Many little league programs are for just that, improving the lives of kids through team work and competition and the spirit of fun.

Competing in sport TKD also develops a work ethic, goal setting, perseverance, integrity, and a few more characteristics that are all apart of self improvement. And for many that can translate into a way of life.

Many people state that they take from sports and apply it to everyday life. That is "Do".

[Daniel Sullivan]

Then the question is whether or not self improvement is 'do', though I do like your illustration with baseball. I still do not consider sports or sport TKD to have 'do' in the traditional sense, but that is of course my opinion.

The main reason that I would advocate calling it TK-Sport instead of TK-Do has nothing to do with that opinion so much as to differentiate the two. What is called "Traditional" by Gorilla came first and is taekwondo. The sport has evolved away from that and should be called something else in my opinion.

Note: this does not denote superiority of one over the other. The two are different tools for different jobs.

Daniel

[dancingalone]

Many of you will know Dave Lowry as a traditional karate man and I believe he does some iaido too. Here is an article he wrote on the Japanese concept of "Do" or Way. http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=82

The writing is a little dense for a numbskull like me, but I get the impression that any type of competitive endeavor would not fit the Way described by Lowry Sensei.