Who is Who in Modern Arnis? [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

DoctorB

06-26-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Ok, I'm thinking on this, and started wondering.

I know Remy gave a number of people titles over the years, but I can't think on who they all are. Seeing as we've got a number of folks from various eras here, and with the interest and research thats gone on recently (Symposium, lineage searches, etc) I figured I'd ask.

This is what I've got:

6 Datus:
- Shishir Inocalla
- Kelly Worden
- Dieter Knüttel
- David Hoffman
- Bong Jornales
- Tim Hartman

7 Masters of TapiTapi:
- Randi Schea
- James Ladis
- Chuck Gauss
- Gaby Roloff
- Ken Smith
- Brian Zawilinski
- Jeff Delaney

Senior Master:
- Dan Anderson (only SM I can recall)

Punong-Guro
- Tim Hartman (only RP PG I'm aware of)

I think Bram Frank had one, but can't recall it off hand.

I know theres also been a number of other titles. Can anyone shed some light on what they were and who has/had them? Also, if I've missed someone, or mislabled someone, please correct me.

Thanks!

(PS - no politics please. Much thanks! :) )

PG Tom Bolden - not an appointment by Professor Presas, HOWEVER, recognized by Professor as a legitimate tile and head of his own system The American Modern Arnis Associates. At a seimar in NYC, araound 1997 or 1998, Professor introduced PG Bolden to GM Cacoy Canete by title and called him a Grand Master.

All of this was predicated on Professor's long association with professor Wally Jay, who was raised in Hawaii and crossed trained with GM Ardiano Emperado, GM Maraino Tiwanak, GM Florintino Pancipanci, GM Willian Chow and GM James Mitose.
Thus Professor Presas became very well informed about the Filipino- Hawaiian martail arts traditions of Jiu-jitsu, Kenpo and Eskrima. PG Bolden's linage is excellent! He is the inheritor or the Pancipanci Family System of Eskrima, which also has a very strong influence of the Filipino version of Silat. Professor Presas was acknowledging that background and skill level when he introduced PG Bolden to GM Canete by title.

the PG title translates into English as Senior Teacher. It is used to signify someone whoi is either the heir apparent to the grand mastership of a system or is actually the head of the system and for whatever reason chooses not to be called GM. Note that the late Rdgar Suluite (sp) of the Lamaco System used the PG title.

When Professor used the PG title and gave it's meaning as "teacher of teachers" he was down playing the true meaning
for his own reasons.

Other titles that have been used in Modern Arnis are "commissioner", "guardian", "protege", "datu", "motts" and
"technical assistants". He also giave out martial arts titles such as Jr. Master, Senior Master, and Jr. Professor.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-26-2003, 12:50 PM

If anyone has a copy of the Filipino Martial Arts Magazine, Volume 4, Number 4, you can see the full page re-print of the MAFP certificate awarded to Tom Carnes, by Professor with the designation of Guardian and Master.

There is a tendency on the part of some people to totally dismiss Master Carnes and his statements regarding Modern Arnis and his association with the Presas, however, I have seen some of the footage that he has of Jose Presas, the father of Professor, Ernesto and Roberto. Master Carnes is the real deal! He might be difficult for some people to accept and his path is and continues to be different from most current Modern Arnis people, but Master Carnes knows what he is talking about from personal training experience with the Presas' in the Philippines.

One of the purposes of the Symposium is to discuss matters like this and to show documentation where it exists to support the claims. The fun behind the Sympopsium is that we all get to talk face to face, show our variations on the art and learn from others. It takes an open mind and a willingness to learn to be at this event. The closer it get the more I am looking forward to being a participant.

There will be some extras at the Symposium - as people make their final travel plans and get their wares ready for sale, the structure is developing very nicely. The espada y daga training sets are going to be beautiful and the live blade Master Instructor Sets are awesome.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Dan Anderson

06-26-2003, 01:16 PM

Tom Carnes? Yeow! How many of the Professor's students did we never hear about?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard

06-26-2003, 03:51 PM

I apreciate the info.

For the sake of my inquiry, I have to limit the focus to those titles verifiably awarded by Remy.

Dr. B - What was the year that magazine article came out? I'm sadly not familiar with the publication.

Dr. B mentioned several other titles I don't recall seeing before.
"commissioner", "guardian", "protege", and "technical assistants". Also, "Jr. Master" Who were these given to?

:asian:

Rich Parsons

06-26-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by DoctorB
. . .

One of the purposes of the Symposium is to discuss matters like this and to show documentation where it exists to support the claims. The fun behind the Sympopsium is that we all get to talk face to face, show our variations on the art and learn from others. It takes an open mind and a willingness to learn to be at this event. The closer it get the more I am looking forward to being a participant.

. . .
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome,

NOt trying to derail this thread, I have a question though?

Are the aprticipants, to bring their Paperwork with them? just to participate? I could see it for testing though.

. . .

:confused:

Dieter

06-27-2003, 03:12 AM

Hi,

in the Philippines there are of course some more Modern Arnis players with high degrees and titles.

As a matter of fact, the status is sometimes not very clear. I for myself would regard anything from 8th Dan and above as Grandmaster. But we had this discussion already in another thread I think.

Anyway, here are a few names with degrees and/or titles, that I saw being used.

Roberto Presas - 10th Dan/Grandmaster (in the Philippines elected as the successor of Professor Remy Presas)
Cristino Vasquez - 9th Dan/Senior Master/Grandmaster (I heared both being used)
Rene Tongson - 8th Dan/Senior Master
Rodel Dagooc - 8th Dan/Senior Master
Jerry de la Cruz - 8th Dan/Grandmaster
Victor Sanchez - 8th Dan/Grandmaster
Roland Dantes - 8th Dan/Senior Master
Pepito Robas - 8th Dan (not 100% sure)
Professor Armando Soteco - 7th Dan
Samuel Dulay - 7th Dan

As you can see, the use of titles with 8th and 9th Dans not consitsent in the Philppines. But why shoud this be different than in the US?
Jerry de la Cruz heads his own System "Arnis Cruzada", which is Modern Arnis based and Victror Sanchez is much into Lightning Scientific Arnis.

If you read the MARPPIO homepage carefully ad compare the described rimming of the belts with the pictures shown on the homepage you can only come to the following conclusion, even though it in not written anywhere:

Dr. Remy Presas Jr. - 9th Dan - Punong Guro
Mary Ann Presas 9th Dan/Punong Guro
Demetrio Presas - 9th Dan/Punong Guro

If you wonder, why Ernesto Presas is not in there, he is not regarded as part of the Modern Arnis family any more, because he strictly goes his Kombatan way. At least this is what I understood from many discussions with the different Masters in Manila.

This list is made out of observation and analyze from what I have seen, heared and read. It is most probably not complete and may even have mistakes, but this is what I think is correct with the knowledge I have up to now.

Best regards from Germany

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Anris

Dan Anderson

06-27-2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Dieter

If you wonder, why Ernesto Presas is not in there, he is not regarded as part of the Modern Arnis family any more, because he strictly goes his Kombatan way. At least this is what I understood from many discussions with the different Masters in Manila.

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Anris

Hi Dieter,
I think this is so. I had a conversation with him a little over a year ago where he told me that Modern Arnis was a part of Kombatan.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

DoctorB

06-27-2003, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Tom Carnes? Yeow! How many of the Professor's students did we never hear about?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Hi Dan,

That is and has been my point is so many of the discussions that have gone down on this forum - there are many more people, titles and credentials with regard to Modern Arnis under Professor than any single person can know. It is not a matter of right and wrong, it is matter of having or not having certin pieces of information.

I have learned several things from reading posts by Rocky about some of the orginal Mid-western Modern Arnis players. Instead of getting upset and say in some manner or other that Rocky does not know what he's talking about, my position is THANKS for the information and names. That often fills in a hole or two in my knowledge base. Rocky is not going to lie about this stuff! Nor will I!

Tom Carnes can be difficult to communicate with, but his information is accurate. He verified for me that Bruce Juncnik, of Kosho Ryu Kempo fame, was one of the orginal commissioners of Modern Arnis in the late 1970's. I remembered an article in which that was mentioned, but I had lost the copy. Tom also named the other three people who held the title.

If people got into the art in the 1990's how can anyopne expect them to know about who was involved in the 1970's or early 1980's especially if those people dropped out and went in a dirfferent direction from Professor? The flip side of that is if people got into the art in the 1990's how can they tell us longer term people what the truth is or was in the 1970's and 1980's?

The Symposium is our chance to talk and share information. Who knows what else might come to light as we play together in Buffalo?

And yes, people, there are a couple of surprises in the offering.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-27-2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Jerome,

NOt trying to derail this thread, I have a question though?

Are the aprticipants, to bring their Paperwork with them? just to participate? I could see it for testing though.

. . .

:confused:

Not a problem, Rich. There is no need to bring documents except for people testing. The documents are to verify the last testing date and rank earned. If the testing were to be done within an organization the records would be available, but the Symposium presents a different set of problems.

Leave you paper at home.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-27-2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I apreciate the info.

For the sake of my inquiry, I have to limit the focus to those titles verifiably awarded by Remy.

Dr. B - What was the year that magazine article came out? I'm sadly not familiar with the publication.

Dr. B mentioned several other titles I don't recall seeing before.
"commissioner", "guardian", "protege", and "technical assistants". Also, "Jr. Master" Who were these given to?

:asian:

The FMAM is published by Eliot Scherer (sp) out on Long Island, NY. You can locate the address via a search in google.com and the use the magazine title to get to their web page. The V4 #4 was published at the end of 2002.

I have put this information forward several times before:

Commissioner/guardian - Tom Carnes and Bruce Juncnik 1970's
Technical Assistants - Billy Bryant, Myself - 1991-3
Protege: Tim Hartman, Jim Ladis 1993 -5(?)

Modern Arnis Black Belt Society: Lee Lowery, Richard Roy, Tom Bolden and Rick Mitchell (1992). There is only one other person in this group, but I can not remember who it is.

Others will have to fill in other names for the various titles.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Bob Hubbard

06-27-2003, 11:52 AM

KEWL!:)

Danke! :asian:

Datu Tim Hartman

06-27-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by DoctorB
Protege: Tim Hartman 1993 -5(?)

In 1999 Professor started referring to me at the seminars as ONE of his successors.

Dan Anderson

06-27-2003, 07:04 PM

Prof. mentioned to me in Atlanta, 1997, I was one of ten successors across the US. He did not mention whe the rest were at that time.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

jaybacca72

06-27-2003, 07:22 PM

there were probably 10 like dan said,i heard remy say in Toronto 1999 that there was to be a board to carry on his art and renegade was said to be one of them. looking forward to meeting some of you in buffallo.
later
jay:asian:

Dan Anderson

06-27-2003, 08:22 PM

I personally think the top ten to carry on the art would have been:
1. me - age over beauty
2. Tonya Harding - hubcap specialist
3. Moe Howard - great hair
4. George Michael - teen appeal
5. William Jefferson Clinton - common sense and truthfulness
6. Slim Whitman - pencil thin mustache
7. Marcel Marceau - stealth
8. B.O.B. (body opponent bag) - toughness
9. Renegade (or Rene' to his friends) - subservient attitude
10. Arthur Blythe - blows a mean alto
Which art I'm not sure.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dieter

06-28-2003, 03:20 AM

In 1999 Professor started referring to me at the seminars as ONE of his successors.

He said a similar thing to me in 1996, after I received my 6th Dan and the Datu title. His words were:

"Now you belong to the "group of 10" from which I will choose my successor."

I never had the aim of being the successor of the Professor, but Im felt honored, that he held me in that high regard.

Regards from Germany

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

Cruentus

06-28-2003, 12:20 PM

4. George Michael - teen appeal

Dan your showing your age. George Michael teen idol? Yea, in like 1983! :p

How bout' Justin Timberlake?:D

David Hoffman

06-29-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by jaybacca72
there were probably 10 like dan said,i heard remy say in Toronto 1999 that there was to be a board to carry on his art and renegade was said to be one of them. looking forward to meeting some of you in buffallo.
later
jay:asian:

Hello Dieter and Dan,

You recollection is correct. In fact, there were a total of 30 people nominated to be board members after our teachers passing. As suggested in this thread, Dan, Dieter and Tim were among the nominated players. The same is true for all the present IMAF board members. I personally urged both Dan and Dieter to accept this nomination and "come on board." To date both have chosen to remain independent. Regardless of your choice to refuse the nomination it is still historically significant that you were nominated. The “successor” idea was something entirely different, primarily intended for continuing the seminar series while Professor retired. I was “groomed” for this position, which I resisted, followed by Tim. Professor considered others, such as Dan and Dieter, but no one took the bait. Most of us simply did not have the time to take on all the travel involved. I agree with Dieter, It was a great honour to even be considered. But it is a role that no one could truly live up to.

I think the major thing most people do not understand is: Professor wanted a cooperative board which would show teamwork and diversity and work together to preserve and promote his art. All the "top dog" business, was just that, a business strategy meant to stimulate competition and satisfy egos. Professor never intended to name a singular "top dog", all those now coming out of the near and distant past to advance their claims to this are simply "entertaining themselves". Professor was very blunt in saying, “The BS is over.” When he became ill. The art was intended to outlast individual agendas and egos. Individually, I have never met anyone who was Professor's equal, not even close, no one can ever replace him. Working together as a group, we have the best hope of preserving the teaching for future generations. The "top dogs" are an illusion to whom Professor threw scraps as you would a pack of hungry wolves, they apparently needed this to continue their chase to have their greatness revealed, but in the final analysis, they are just noise in the wilderness. What Professor wanted, intended and clearly named for his legacy and for future generations, was a mature, thoughtful, and cooperative team who would work together to promote the art, not their own agendas and egos.

Datu David Hoffman

norshadow1

06-29-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by David Hoffman

I think the major thing most people do not understand is: Professor wanted a cooperative board which would show teamwork and diversity and work together to preserve and promote his art. All the "top dog" business, was just that, a business strategy meant to stimulate competition and satisfy egos. Professor never intended to name a singular "top dog", all those now coming out of the near and distant past to advance their claims to this are simply "entertaining themselves"... The "top dogs" are an illusion to whom Professor threw scraps as you would a pack of hungry wolves, they apparently needed this to continue their chase to have their greatness revealed, but in the final analysis, they are just noise in the wilderness. What Professor wanted, intended and clearly named for his legacy and for future generations, was a mature, thoughtful, and cooperative team who would work together to promote the art, not their own agendas and egos.

Datu David Hoffman

Well said. Hopefully in time it will come into being.

Lamont

Brian Johns

06-29-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by norshadow1
Well said. Hopefully in time it will come into being.

Lamont

I do believe that the current IMAF, Inc. Board of Directors (Schea group) is what Professor had in mind. What we have is a "mature, thoughtful, and cooperative team who would work together to promote the art, not their own agenda and egos. (quoting Datu Hoffman.)"

Take care,
Brian Johns

Red Blade

06-29-2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by David Hoffman
The “successor” idea was something entirely different, primarily intended for continuing the seminar series while Professor retired. I was “groomed” for this position, which I resisted, followed by Tim. Professor considered others, such as Dan and Dieter, but no one took the bait.

Could you explain this?

David Hoffman

06-30-2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Red Blade
Could you explain this?

Yes, I would be happy to explain further. Can you ask me what specifically you are curious about? This so I don't ramble on without answering what you want. (As I do.) Also 2 things. I know this is a somewhat anonymous forum, but I prefer to only "talk" directly to people I can identify, as some of these matters are very personal and serious to me. If you do not wish to publish your name you can email me privately with your identity and questions and I will do my best to respond, (and respect your anonymity if you wish.)

Additionally, as I am off to my camp in the woods, please understand if I don't reply immediately. Please also consider that there are still many things which I do not feel at liberty to discuss in detail; either because they are personal or for legal reasons.

I have information and documents from our Grand Master, of beloved memory, which I am preparing for publication later this summer, in accordance with written instructions he left concerning how things were to be run after his passing. Very clear, very specific.

While this may do nothing to influence those with a private agenda in conflict with Professor’s wishes and vision, (some of the “complaints and demands for increased recognition and status which I see now on the internet where historical and well known to Professor, myself and numerous others. Professor simply did not agree with some students who in turn felt they had to do their “own thing” and sometimes quit in protest to form their own organizations.

I am not judging them, it is a free country as they say. Perhaps they are right and Professor was wrong or unfair. The time has past when he could speak for himself and past misunderstandings can never be resolved. Only one side of every story can now be argued. I chose to try to follow Professor’s wishes when he was with us, though often I failed out of ignorance or pride; and now I try, even harder, to remain loyal to his wishes and instructions for this, the time after he has left this world. In some cases Professor felt very betrayed: rightly or wrongly.

Knowing how easy misunderstandings and hurt feeling take place, I choose still to side with Professor exclusively, and I’m not that interested or bothered by others justification or arguments to the contrary. It does not make me right or correct, my personal bias is forever with my teacher. Those who also share with me this sincere intent to understand our teacher will, I’m sure, be very interested. Those with their own agendas will, I expect, not be so influenced, as they thought they knew better than Professor when he was alive. I hope those sincere students thirsty for information will bear with me on this and accept my good faith representation that some things must wait a bit longer before being publicly released.

May I offer please, to the Modern Arnis family this one idea; it is still not yet two years since our Grand Masters untimely departure, much understanding will come in the fullness of time. Many things are not yet settled; yet it seems as though sides are already being taken and judgements made. In my opinion, there has been a rush to publish opinions, debate and make and break allegiances, much of this, though perhaps unintentionally, is very premature and damaging to the Modern Arnis family as a whole.

This began even in the last months of Professor’s life and was a source of great pain for him. We owe it to his spirit to take the necessary time to let the story unfold. I expect we will all find much more to mutually endorse and respect than we realize. Myself very much included. There is so much more that includes us than that which divides, or excludes us.

Thank You,

David Hoffman

MJS

06-30-2003, 10:45 AM

That is probably why there are so many problems in Modern Arnis today. Just like any other art, when the head of the systems passes, there are too many chiefs and not enough indians!! Of course everybody wants to be the next in line. The Prof. probably has told so many people that they are the next one, that he lost count. My opinion-- the person who was around him the longest, was able to perform the material the best, and could spread the art the way he did---THAT is the person that should be next in line!

Mike

Cruentus

06-30-2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by WhoopAss
I do believe that the current IMAF, Inc. Board of Directors (Schea group) is what Professor had in mind. What we have is a "mature, thoughtful, and cooperative team who would work together to promote the art, not their own agenda and egos. (quoting Datu Hoffman.)"

Take care,
Brian Johns

I wouldn't be so sure.

What Professor had in mind, what 'works,' and what actually is occuring are totally different things. The IMAF, Inc. is trying to do their best to follow professors wishes, but it is not exactly what professor had in mind.

If I recall (and this backs what Mr. Hoffman is saying) there were about 30 or so people listed to be on a democratic board of directors. Many of these people listed are not even IMAF, Inc. members, let alone IMAF, Inc. Board members.

Besides, even though this is what was detailed, this doesn't discount the fact that Tim Hartman was offered the system when Professor was in Germany. If Tim had taken the promotion instead of worrying about Professors health, then all that was detailed about a "democratic board" would have been obsolete.

So, even though a democratic board was detailed as the way to go, can we even be sure that this was his true "wishes?" I say that it is difficult to be sure of anything at this point.

My point is, what "professor had in mind," whatever that was exactly, will never occur.

This doesn't mean that we can't all continue Professors dream in our own way, and we all do not need the IMAF, Inc. structure to do so.

And out of those who claim leadership, the strong will survive, and the weak will disappear, or be integrated with another stronger group. This will occur, dispite any petty internet objections.

Just my thoughts........ :cool:

Dan Anderson

06-30-2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by David Hoffman
Hello Dieter and Dan,

You recollection is correct. In fact, there were a total of 30 people nominated to be board members after our teachers passing. As suggested in this thread, Dan, Dieter and Tim were among the nominated players. The same is true for all the present IMAF board members. I personally urged both Dan and Dieter to accept this nomination and "come on board." To date both have chosen to remain independent. Regardless of your choice to refuse the nomination it is still historically significant that you were nominated. Datu David Hoffman

David,

Sorry bud, but I have to take issue on this one. Up to and including now, no one from IMAF central (anyone in a decision making position) has either written, telephoned or emailed me requesting or nominating me to be one of the board members of IMAF. The closest thing has been you mentioning it in a forum post or in private email.

I asked Dr. Shea, et al, and got nothing but very general replies as to what my position would be in IMAF, should I affiliate.

But I repeat, no one has approached me. I do not take your mentioning in a private post as any kind of substantial request or urging. I cannot speak for Tim or Dieter.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan Anderson

06-30-2003, 05:20 PM

David,

I am also curious about the documents you mention. One thing for sure, it is very hard to tell "what the Professor wanted" nearly two years after his death. As to the offer of being groomed for the "hot seat," yes, I was one among others. How many others I don't kow but I can certainly claim I wasn't the only one in the last 20+ years. That is truely a moot point in present time. I think what we, collectively (IMAF, WMAA, WMAC, independents, etc.), are doing is the right thing - continuing to train in and promoting Modern Arnis.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Symposium time is rapidly approaching!!

Bob Hubbard

06-30-2003, 05:39 PM

Wasn't all this stuff mentioned in the will? :confused:

Cruentus

06-30-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Wasn't all this stuff mentioned in the will? :confused:

Dan;

I think to answer yours and Mr. Hubbards question: Yes.

It was my understanding that Professors wishes were detailed in his will; which I have not seen. This is what I have heard from others who have seen it.

I believe some where near 30 leaders were supposed to come to agreements, and democratically run the old IMAF. There are inherent problems with this, however. We can't get 30 leaders to agree on anything now, even with seperate orgs., so how the hell would be able to do it by committee?

There were inherent problems with this structure. Plus, Professor had the habit of changing his mind. So depending on when that will was dated, even if it was a week before he passed his wishes could have changed.

You just brought up another issue also, Dan; if you where on this list of 30, then why weren't you contacted? It is a good question, one that I ain't touching with a 10 foot pole.

To further complicate things; people in general are f**king lyers; whether by accident or on purpose. People like to change history to suit their own agenda's. People often like to look at only one side of the story as well; their side.

The fact is, I know a lot about what happend in the past, how ugly it got, and I have made my own logical conclusions as too what Remy's "wishes" were. Problem is, all my information is second hand; remember I took a year off seminars when all the S**t hit the fan.

But at least I'll call it like it is, and at least I'll admit my short comings. I can't say the same for others who are supposedly higher ranked and more experienced, yet have bigger short comings then me. I know all my info regarding the matter at hand is second hand info. So what? I also know that I feel that I should have known more about Remy's condition back then. But I will be the 1st to admit that to my knowledge it wasn't like he was asking, "Where is that Paul Janulis kid?" either. I also know that due to my age (not experience or skill) there is no way I would have been on that list of 30.

And you know what? I am glad that I wasn't on the list, and I am glad I wasn't invited to the @$$ kissing party in Victoria, Canada. Back then I was angry, but now I am not; I am just being blunt here. Because I missed it, this makes the issue NOT MY RESPONSABILITY; and while other leaders may bicker, jocky, or hide behind half-truths and ambiguity, I am training and getting better. So watch out, mother f**kers, because if you don't see me right on your tail right now, it is because I am already ahead of you. And you'll only have the pleasure of finding this out when you someday get shown up by a "junior".

And if it is I who gets "shown up" then I am even happier, because then I just learned something. I already have the mentality that says, "I suck", so I will always learn. It would just be nice if this light bulb would go on for everyone, but that is asking for to much, I think.

Sorry for the rant. Although I have been vocal in the past about certian things, there are a lot of issues that I haven't touched within a mile. The details of the will, and his overall plan and such is one of these issues. I haven't touched these (and won't in a public forum) because I was not there; so my information is second hand.

Dan, if your looking for answers, give me a ring and I can tell you what I know, or at least what I have heard. This might help you in your search.

As for everyone else and for those who like to twist and conceal information; I'll just say that I am glad that I have no skeletons in my closet. So for those of you who have information, yet are hiding it, or twisting it to fit your own agenda, I hope that you someday come clean. And for those of you who are playing the "I know a secret" game, when you really don't have anything but crap on your thumb from sitting on it all day, then I hope you feel real special about yourself.

Just never forget that you are messing around with a dead man's wishes, and if you don't come clean then you are the one who has to wear that black mark on your soul.

I'm just glad that mine is clean, at least in regards to this issue...

Paul Janulis

P.S. To cover myself, this dark and dreary post is not directed at anyone in particular (except in that I answered Dan Anderson and asked him to call me). So, do not take anything as a personal slam. However, for those whom the shoe fits, it is up to you to show it off. Don't come crying to me with your responses because you have much bigger issues to contend with, and it ain't with me.

arnisador

06-30-2003, 08:32 PM

I've been hearing about the will for years. If Mr. Hartman hadn't assured me that it exists I'd be thinking it was just an old wives' tale by now--'a legend used to frighten children' as they say.

When it finally does come out so much will have happened that I fear its impact will be diminished.

Datu Tim Hartman

06-30-2003, 08:41 PM

Mr. Janulis does not speak for the WMAA on this matter. We encourage and support our member’s freedom of speech. However his statement does not reflect the opinion of the WMAA.

:asian:

Brian Johns

06-30-2003, 10:41 PM

Paul said:

To further complicate things; people in general are f**king lyers;

Problem is, all my information is second hand; remember I took a year off seminars when all the S**t hit the fan.

And you know what? I am glad that I wasn't on the list, and I am glad I wasn't invited to the @$$ kissing party in Victoria, Canada. Back then I was angry, but now I am not; I am just being blunt here.

So watch out, mother f**kers, because if you don't see me right on your tail right now, it is because I am already ahead of you.

Just never forget that you are messing around with a dead man's wishes, and if you don't come clean then you are the one who has to wear that black mark on your soul.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow, Paul, judging by the language (see above) in your post, it appears that you still harbor quite a bit of anger, contrary to your assertions. I was under the impression that you wanted to mend things and move forward. At least that's the impression that I got from Mao when he told me that you two had spoken on the phone recently. I hope that you are able to resolve some of these issues and move on.

It was good talking with you at Michigan. I still remember that great meal your mom cooked up after Professor's seminar in May of 2000. Hope that all is well with your mom and your brother.

Take care,
Brian

Datu Tim Hartman

06-30-2003, 10:46 PM

The problem is that there are 3 sides to every story. Yours, Mine and the TRUTH! The problem here is that everyone has a STORY.

I’m curious what you meant when you wrote the following?

The “successor” idea was something entirely different, primarily intended for continuing the seminar series while Professor retired. I was “groomed” for this position, which I resisted, followed by Tim.

Are you saying that I was supposed to take over the seminars? This does make sense. When was this all planned, before or after his retirement?

Mao

06-30-2003, 11:30 PM

Paul,
Ouch. What happend with what you and I had talked about on the phone? Did something new happen?
Et all,
I have said before that, for some, the answers won't make much difference because they won't be satisfied with ANY answer.
It would be nice if people with only second hand information would seek information from more places. Paul had guts enough to come to the Mi. camp even after some of the things that he had said regarding the group. It would have been a good time to begin to build, mend, re-establish relationships and move forward. It sounds, though, like there is more to deal with. He still showed up. Kudo's. As David Hoffman has said, it has been but two years since Remy's passing. Many things are not yet settled, personally as well as legally. In the fullness of time they will be. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given US. (how Gandalf, eh?) I have found myself biting my tongue alot lately. I'll do this more, I'm sure. So much of the second guessing, posturing, self promoting and self agrandizing is just so much noise. Who does it really benefit in the end? It won't get you into Heaven.
MAO

Cruentus

07-01-2003, 11:17 AM

My post was kind of my way of throwing a granade into the crowd. I re-read what I wrote, and I sound a lot more pissed then I actually am. Whoops! You know it's bad when Tim has to put up a disclaimer for the WMAA!:o :p

Thing to remember when Paul posts: I write a lot, but I really don't spend a lot of time here. I can read and type fairly quickly; so I often rattle off a post that might have a different tone then I even expect. Oh well....it's more fun that way....hmmm what will I rattle off next? :D

My intention in writing it was to give people a wake up call. As I said previously I wasn't directing my post to any one person or group in particular.

The shoe fits many people across the modern arnis world. Many people have been so fixated on trying to position themselves that they aren't growing. Many others are trying so hard to preserve what they've learned without moving forward, and they aren't growing. There are also many others who are trying to preserve "their version" of the "truth" of Remy's wishes and passing, instead of trying to find out the actual truth (whether it works in their favor or not) and they are not growing either.

I think that their are many people in Modern Arnis who are not growing; and they don't even realize it. Furthermore, it is bad for the art. So for those who are not growing, I can't stop your behavior, but at least you can't say that you weren't told. Meanwhile, their are other people who are considered "juniors" to many of the leaders who are still training and growing, despite the mess. All I am saying is that if the "seniors" who are guilty of the above keep screwing around, they will find many "juniors" (not just me) are going to leave them in the dust.

In terms of unfinished business; there is still a lot of it, especially regarding the infamous "will" and other matters. All I am saying, as I had said before, is that I am damn glad that none of that is my responsability.

MAO and WHOOP:

Hi fella's. Yes, I am moving forward. Please don't take my posts here personally; as I said before I am not directing it at any one group. If we were in the same room having this discussion, I would have said the same thing I said above, cept' you would have seen the smile on my face and the even tone in my voice, so you would have understood that I am just stating how I feel, but I am not an emotional wreck or angry over these feelings. Modern Arnis has moved forward in leaps and bounds in many ways since Remy's passing; but there is still a lot of mess, and unfinished business. Sometimes when the subject comes up, I may say things to try to donk people on the head :hammer: so that they will get a reality check. If by my post I got one person to think outside of the box, then I feel that it was worth it.

There are a lot of issues and unfinished business; I am just glad that it is not my responsability to piece it all together, that's for sure. Since it is not my responsability, I can still move forward, build relationships, visit other peoples events, etc., with a clear conscience.

So don't worry guys; I may have my opinions, and some may be harsh, and different then yours. This doesn't mean that I am going to be a negative nancy :kiss: all the time; or that my opinions are going to effect my progression, or my ability to progress the art.

"And that's all I'm gonna say" :mst:
:D

Dieter

07-01-2003, 11:27 AM

Dan Anderson wrote:
But I repeat, no one has approached me. ...I cannot speak for Tim or Dieter.

Same for me. I was not approached by the IMAF.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

Cruentus

07-01-2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by Dieter
Same for me. I was not approached by the IMAF.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

Either one of two things occured...

1. You, for whatever reason, were not mentioned in the will as one of the 30.

or.....

2. You were mentioned, but you were left out of the loop by those who were left responsable to contact you, whomever "they" actually were.

I don't see any other possible conclusions other then what I have listed above. These conclusions are both very real possabilities. I think that no matter whether the answer is, one or the other, the real question then becomes: WHY????

Guys, I wish I had the answer.....:idunno:

Dan Anderson

07-01-2003, 11:54 AM

As long as we're on the subject of the will, has it ever been made public? The last I heard RP's estate was intestate (not having made a legally valid will - Encarta Dictionary). As to being officially in the top 30, that is news to me although I did know that I was one of the vice presidents in an older incarnation of IMAF.

As to upset about not being contacted, that got handled a while ago. I don't want it said, though, that I formally rejected anythng I didn't formally reject. Those are not the facts.

Paul made a point in a post (I believe in a different thread) which made a lot of sense. He went to the IMAF Michigan Camp and said something to the extent that the flavor of WMAA Modern Arnis was more to his liking. Excellent way of saying it! Brian Johns and Dan McConnell have said the same about IMAF Modern Arnis as well.

This is the way to state it! No making self right and others wrong but merely stating a preference. That's art. Preference of expression whether it is music, painting, drama or martial art.

This is one of the reasons I am so enthusiastic about the Symposium. Preferences will be expressed. This is also why I am now interested in making it to an IMAF camp or two.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - 1. It looks like I won't be making the IMAF Chicago camp after all. I committed to Chad and Sal's camp prior to the invitation to Chicago and I had their date wrong. Rats. I will make it to an IMAF camp in the future. 2. Check out the new MartialTalk e-magazine. Good first issue. DA

wongfeihung

07-01-2003, 11:58 AM

I'll add an additional $.02 to this boiling cauldron. I had an opportunity to visit, hang, and listen to the Professor behind the scenes for a few years. An insider I'm not, but I did get the chance to meet Remy Presas the man and I have a few observations.

The Professor concentrated on working what he called "Magic"; a potent combination of charisma, overwhelming skill, and sensitivity to pushing the right buttons to get people motivated. This has been smartly observed by others in other threads but seems to be forgotten quickly when attempting to nail down some type of systemic, categorized structure the professor may have had for the organization of the art. Pointedly, the Professor said a good number of things to a vast number of people over the course of his teaching history -- there isn't enough room for all the claims! Western management's organizational structure is counter to Remy Presas, the man. He simply did the best he could in a time of extreme stress (and in my OPINION ONLY, chose an excellent organizational leader in Dr Randi Schea).

An example, using myself:
The Professor told me after a session at a camp in 95 or 96 that my forms were excellent and that he'd like to feature me in his next video series for the forms chapters. I took this as a high compliment but I never expected anything -- I thought that given a right-place-right-time situation that I could possibly appear in a video, but mostly I knew that Professor was encouraging me, a shy and often insecure kid that simply doesn't have the spacial intelligence to readily fly with advanced Arnis, by playing to my strengths. I am not in any way discounting what he may or may not have said or wished for any one else -- but the nature of the man was to encourage growth first and foremost. Train hard, respect other players, cherish your teachers, propogate the art -- ultimately that was Professor's vision.

My best,
Travis Roy

Dieter

07-01-2003, 12:05 PM

Well, this is not a problem to me.

Regarding your first guess:
You, for whatever reason, were not mentioned in the will as one of the 30.

I don´t think so,
1) because Remy said to me: You belong to the group of 10 now

2) He said to me word by word: "You are in my will",

3) David said, that I was part of the 30.

Anyway, I think Modern Arnis in the US circles very much around Modern Arnis in the US and don´t really take in account, that there are other countries as well.

I know that Remy liked our group here in Germany and that he was impressed with our approach to Modern Arnis. I have on tape when he said after a blackbelt grsading here in Gemany in front of 80 participant of the seminar, and I quote: "You are doing good. You uplift the standard of Modern Arnis worldwide".
(These are not my words, they were his)

I have no problems with the IMAF, exept of Ken Smith I know them all in person, but I think after the death of Remy, they were very busy to set up the "master of Tapi-Tapi" construct, and then they had to solve the JD problem.
You know, Germany is far away when you are not around when decisions are being made in the US.

The whole IMAF thing is no problem with me because I know they respect me for who I am and what I do, (When Randi Shea was in Germany I think in 1996, he asked me if I the ambitions to be the successor of the Professor, which I denied) and the no matter if I am part of the board of the IMAf or not. I am sure, David Hoffman can confirm this.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

Cruentus

07-01-2003, 12:31 PM

Dieter:

I'll address your #'s by the #'s

1) because Remy said to me: You belong to the group of 10 now

Remy said a lot of things that would often change later. Who were these other 10? How do you know that these other 10 were the same when he passed away as they were when he told you? It is just very difficult to go on what he said because things would often change after he said it. I've discussed this in a different thread, but remember "Remy told me ____ at this event on such-and-such date" doesn't always fly. The situation could have changed within months to make what he "said" invalid.

2) He said to me word by word: "You are in my will",

Once again, things can change. It was my understanding that the Will was often changed, and people who were on it at one time often didn't stay on it. If he told you this more then a few weeks before he passed, it could be questionable.

3) David said, that I was part of the 30.

I like David, but to qoute a famous WWE wrestler, "It Doesn't matter what he said!"

What matters is what it says on that will. Even if David was looking at a copy of it when he said that you were one of the 30, then I would still want to see it in print if I were you.

I am sort of playing Devils advocate here; chances are that you are in the will being that you are a Datu.

All I am saying is I wouldn't be so sure of anything until there is tangable proof. There is too much "assumption" going around, and not enough fact. Like Datu Hartman said: the problem is that everyone has a story.

Don't let yours get in the way of fact; find out the facts first, before you assume.

PAUL

P.S. Don't take any of this as a personal attack, please. I am just saying that there are facts that need to be discovered here, and I am just advising against "assuming" too much.

:asian:

Dieter

07-01-2003, 01:04 PM

Hi paul,

I don´t take it as an attack at all.
I would not even care, if i would not be on that list, because this does not matter regarding the relationship I had with Remy and
I know how Remy stood to me that is enough for me. He made me his 4th Datu and I am sure he had reasons for that.

I don´t have to proove anything, because I am not trying to get in any position in any organisation or so. I don´t want to be respected because I am on some list. I like it, if the people like what I have to offer when I teach.

Regards

Dieter.
I don´t

Cruentus

07-01-2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Dieter
Hi paul,

I don´t take it as an attack at all.
I would not even care, if i would not be on that list, because this does not matter regarding the relationship I had with Remy and
I know how Remy stood to me that is enough for me. He made me his 4th Datu and I am sure he had reasons for that.

I don´t have to proove anything, because I am not trying to get in any position in any organisation or so. I don´t want to be respected because I am on some list. I like it, if the people like what I have to offer when I teach.

Regards

Dieter.
I don´t

That is definatily good to hear. I don't think it should reflect on you either way; and I don't think that at this point the list matters, either.

All that matters is skill, your positive attitude, and your willingness to teach the art! :D

Datu Tim Hartman

07-01-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Dieter
He said to me word by word: "You are in my will",

Dieter-

You and I need to talk about this when you come over to the symposium.

dearnis.com

07-01-2003, 03:54 PM

Wills.....

it is my understanding that Professor's US will is not recognized under Canadian law.

I am also aware of multiple wills. (and no, I will not say more on that topic).

Chad

Datu Tim Hartman

07-01-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Wills.....

it is my understanding that Professor's US will is not recognized under Canadian law.

Chad

What seems funny to me is why do the Canadians have anything to say about an American will for an American citizen!?!?

Now before anyone says anything. Remy may have married a Canadian, but this doesn't make him one.

:confused:

David Hoffman

07-01-2003, 04:27 PM

Hello All,

I am away from my office this week so I can not respond fully. I did ask for a little patience!

Dan, I do not have my emails here but I did exchange several long one's with you, call you with Professor from Victoria and made a big effort to "get you involved" as Professor wished and discussed with me. As I was acting as both an IMAF board member and Vice-President, communicating directly with the Chairman to discuss my efforts to get you involved, I'm not sure what more you needed. There is no specific council for recruitment. There is a steering committee which makes non binding recommendations to a board of director's with voting authority. Randi and Jim handle much of the day to administration, as I am the "senior" board member (in terms of age and time in the art, but with no added authority) and know most all of the other "seniors" it was left to me to contact you and others. If I was not sufficiently clear, then I apologize, but I do point out that you never responded to me, instead, you posted your decision to affiliate with another organization, Renegade as I recall, so you left me hanging without a reply and I was not finished. If I was lacking in my effort in clarity or thoroughness then I apologize.

Also, the list of nominated IMAF Directors I have mentioned was not made while Professor was ill! That is a major, major misconception, it was set to paper years previously, and had been building for over a decade. I was updated periodically, for example, I recall when Doug Pierre was added there were already 17 names. I am not aware that any changes were made after Professor became ill. None at all to my knowledge. There were a few rank and title promotions, nothing else. In fact, nothing at all significant to the Federation, except for the naming of the steering committee. This in itself was not remarkable as all members of the committee were also named directors year prior. The steering committee was added, and made necessary, by the sudden onset of the illness. They are doing a very good job in my opinion.

Paul, I know you as a sincere young person. Your support of your teacher is admirable. But your comments are not in keeping with the maturity I expect of you! There is no need for you to defend Tim Hartman. Tim was one of those named to the board. Professor did not remove Tim's name despite their estrangement during the "renegade" time. If you read my words you will see that, if anything, my post gives status and importance to those I mention, especially Tim so there is no need to be so emotional. What I will have to add about the "successor" idea will likewise, only add confirmation and honor to Tim who was regarded a senior arnistador by Professor and myself. As far as why you were not yourself named Paul. I can not say. Perhaps because you were in your teens when the list was compiled, and about 20 when it was put in writing. I can not say.

But to everyone, please understand, the board was designed for the administration and protection of the art. Not being named does not mean you were not a good student or skillful. I have clearly stated previously that all of Professor's instructors are entitled to teach and spread his art without interference. The IMAF was designated as a collective, legal and formal organization, to help with administration, preservation and promotion of the art so that it would survive. This was consistent to Professor’s vision and ALL of the recollections I have read. Most everyone nominated was told so by Professor over the years, though they may not have understood exactly what he meant or known the whole plan. The directors are not necessarily the most skilled or best fighters, though they are certainly a broad sampling of seniors from around the world. They ARE the people specifically nominated to lead the art within the framework of the International Modern Arnis Federation. It is their individual choice and right to either do so, remain uninvolved. My personal opinion is they have no additional authority to set themselves as King, Supreme master, or compete openly with the Federation. I do, however, realize that much may be the result of misunderstanding and emotions after our tragedy. That is why I am making this effort to set the record straight. I will be ready to publish my research in about six weeks time.

You should be happy, Paul, with the training and advancement that you had. It is very special and unique to you and you should carry it on proudly. Most all nominated board members were more than twenty years older than you and high ranking, I'm sure you would have grown into a role as well with your enthusiasm. I’m am also sure that Professor was very fond of you as you have said. But by putting your opinion above Professor's, and publishing with such ranker, you suggest to me that perhaps you are not yet mature enough for a position as Director. As I have met you and were impressed by you, I am sure that as you age, you will remedy this. I imagine your teacher would be willing to talk to you as well. In the meantime, I do not wish to scold you but please show respect when entering a discussion with seniors. Ok my young friend?

Finally, as I have said, I will make available more information and documents to the people named and concerned, and eventually, to the public. In the meantime, we are nearing the second anniversary of our Grand Master's passing. Could we not, as a family, be a little more patient, and take this time to reflect on the great teacher who has so touched our lives? I humbly propose to our martial arts family, that for these weeks leading up to this sad anniversary, we take a pause from all the griping and status claims, and instead, focus of the great and rich legacy Remy Amador Presas left us. After this anniversary I will publish the documents I have referred to, we can then analyzes them together.

David Hoffman

David Hoffman

07-01-2003, 04:32 PM

Please note, I accidently used my automatic signature with this post. I am not speaking for the IMAF at the present. For the duration of my efforts to help settle Professor's estate, personal business, future structure of the art leadership, etc. I have taken an inactive and non-voting status with the IMAF,inc. I do this, as is customary, to avoid any conflict of interest. The board has been informed of this.

Thank You.

David Hoffman

Datu Tim Hartman

07-01-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by David Hoffman
Tim was one of those named to the board. Professor did not remove Tim's name despite their estrangement during the "renegade" time.

Dave-

maybe you can tell me about this RENEGADE TIME. Like when was this started, and by whom?

Dieter

07-01-2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Dieter: He said to me word by word: "You are in my will",

Originally posted by Tim:
Dieter - You and I need to talk about this when you come over to the symposium.

No problem, any time.

Dieter

Cruentus

07-01-2003, 07:26 PM

(Or rather, because you are my senior....)

Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Hoffman.............

I tryed to clear a few things up from my "beligerent" post, but apparently I didn't do so enough. So let me clear up a few misconceptions that I feel that you may have...

1. Maturity: I resent that you feel that I am being immature. I don't feel that I am, or have been yet. I have not once resorted to slamming anyone on this thread. I have not pointed a finger at anyone in particular here, either. I am only guilty of stating facts, coupled with my opinions.

Yes, I was very blunt. I sounded angry in my one "beligerent" post, when I was not really.

My intent was to verbally "smack" people on the head, particularly my "seniors" to encourage them to see that what many are doing in regards to our art is wrong. And while many continue to "wrong" Modern Arnis, others are doing something right for it. These others, many who may be "juniors", are gaurunteed to bypass the "leaders" who continue to stagnate their version of the art with their behavior.

The sooner we all realize my point, and especially the sooner my "seniors" who are guilty of this realize this, the faster people will start to get their acts together. Yet I speak, and I am misunderstood again. The plight of being me I guess. That's O.K., those of you who don't get it now, you'll get it sooner or later.

But in regards to maturity, Datu Hoffman, when I speak of an art I love, I will speak with passion. Don't confuse passion with immaturity.

2. "No need to defend Tim Hartman"

If I think he needs defending, Datu Hoffman, I will do so. However, I have not really done so here. My point in mentioning that he was offered the system in Germany was only to illustrate professors inconsistancies when making leadership decisions. In other words, asking one man to be the head of the organization and system, however qualified he may be, is quite a bit different then asking a board of 30 to do so democratically. This is hugely inconsistant, as Professor was when making these decisions. Some people are now taking advantage of these inconsistancies. Some just try to do what is best for the art (such as when Tim turned Professor down in Germany, concerning himself over the mans recovery, which did not work in Tims favor but was what he felt was best for the art), despite these inconsistancies. Some are just doing what they were told, as in Brian Zewilinski's (MOTT) case (at least this was my impression, anyhow).

It would be nice if more people did one of the later. Again, not trying to defend Tim, but I did use him to make a point.

3. "why was Paul not named"

COME ON! This should not even be the topic of discussion. I do not claim rank or title of any significance, so why would I even wonder why I wasn't named on the list!?!?!? I don't.

But if you need my confirmation, we both know why I wasn't listed, and it has nothing to do with rank or skill, as you said. I was way too young to take on that responsability. You hit the nail on the head!

But do not think that I, for any reason, implied that I should have been on that list. I never did such a thing. I was only stating that I was glad that I WASN'T, for this means that it is not my responsability to clean up other peoples messes!

4. "Perhaps you are not mature enough for a position as a director"

First of all, yes it is true, I am only 25 years old. However, you do not know me past our little meeting we had years ago. I now run a wealth management group; that's right, I run a business. I understand the importance of professionalism more then you realize.

You don't know even close to enough about me to make your judgements.

I will say that I will not hide behind the ruse of professionalism to mask how I feel, or to be ambigious about the truth of matters. Many others do this, I feel. As I said before, I am passionate about my art. If that means that I am going to speak loudly, and frankly at times, then that is what that means. Do not confuse this with me lacking professionalism. Do not confuse this with an inability to make leadership decisions.

5. "By putting your opinion above professors...."

I AM NOT putting my opinion above Professors! I am putting my opinion on par with Professors other students, whether they are my seniors or juniors. This is where my opinion should be! The fact is, as Tim had said, and I will repeat it many times, "everyone has a story." Peoples "stories" lead to different opinions as to what Professors "opinions," wishes, and intentions were. You see, these are all scewed by individual motives.

I will do what I FEEL professor would want me to do, not what you, or anybody else thinks that professor would have wanted me to do. I think now that I have explained, now you might get the difference. Don't mistaken my questioning of Professors students with questioning Professor himself. You see, I will not blindly follow anyone.

5.
In the meantime, I do not wish to scold you but please show respect when entering a discussion with seniors. Ok my young friend?

Gee, thanks for not scolding me. I am going to give you the benifit of the doubt here. In other words, I am going to pretend for a second that your not trying to be a dick, or talk down to me.

I respect people who are my seniors, but this doesn't mean that I will stand aside and plainly watch my "seniors" do what I believe is wrong, if this is the case. And if my seniors wrong me, my family/friends, my instructor(s), or my descipline severely enough, then they lose my respect, seniors or not. At that point, all is fair game. If that means that I personally put them in their place verbally or physically, then that is what it means.

So pulling the "senior" card with me will only get you so far. Just remember that.

In terms of disrespect: qoute me where I personally attacked or disrespected anyone on this thread, and I will be glad to examine my statement. Outside of bluntness, I do not feel that I have disrespected anyone, senior or junior. If you took anything that I have written as disrespect towards you personally, then please understand that this certainly wasn't my intent.

In terms of the rest of your post; nice job. thanks for the compliments that you did say sparingly through your post. Also, thanks for taking the time for displaying your info. I look forward to hearing more soon.

Respectfully,

Paul Janulis
No Rank, No Title, and Unlisted.

JMP

07-01-2003, 09:14 PM

Hello
I have been reading these Remy said post for a good while.
There is no end to what Remy said. this was a good man, with a good heart, he would say anything to make people happy.
Ask Rocky or Hal what Remy said to them ,in 1977 Remy said to DeMott and Fields and Arnold they were the chosen ones, later after the split up between DeMott and Fields only Fields would be the one here in Mi. Fields had some personal things. Next it was Owens and myself, he had to stop training for awhile so it was my turn, I said no, I was not humble I did not want the job, all others that had it ended up without a teacher I just wanted to train. Remy would come and we had a good time he would test my people then after a short stay away he would go "what is this I will make some money" see you next year Jim.
Don't worry about what everyone is doing or what they have got the best thing we can do for him is train and be happy that is what it is all about.
I do know that Remy tried to have a good and a personal relationship with everyone he would stay with, things said to each of us maybe better kept to ourselves it could cut down on the confusion, or maybe talked about only in person.

Thanks for listening

Jim Power
Flint Mi.
I have

(* Corrected spelling of names of people at request of the poster *)

arnisador

07-01-2003, 09:50 PM

Saying someone is not mature is not the same as saying that they're immature. I took Mr. Hoffman's use of the term to refer to a certain 'ripening' that comes with age and experience--very different from implying that one is immature with respect to their own peers.

David Hoffman

07-01-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
(Or rather, because you are my senior....)

In terms of disrespect: qoute me where I personally attacked or disrespected anyone on this thread, and I will be glad to examine my statement. Outside of bluntness, I do not feel that I have disrespected anyone, senior or junior. If you took anything that I have written as disrespect towards you personally, then please understand that this certainly wasn't my intent.

Paul Janulis

Hello Paul,

As you have asked me to quote what I was protesting, I will do so. Please bear with me as I'm not very experience with using the forum. Before I do so , please understand that I agree with what Arnistador has said. I am not suggesting you are immature, Paul, I am only taking issue with these few statements you have said which do appear insulting. Further, I am not trying to pull seniority on you, it is a simple fact that I was addressing the other nominated "seniors" who all are mature in terms of years with 10 to twenty years or more in the art. That does not make us any better or even more skilled, just older with more experience. You are very intelligent Paul and a good debater, I respectfully submit that my discussion was with the others seniors I was mentioning. For you to debate every point so hotly merits my asking that you remain polite. As you have asked me to quote you I will do so. Not to further upset you, rather so you understand me.

David Hoffman

Dan Anderson

07-01-2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by David Hoffman (in italics):
Dan, I do not have my emails here but I did exchange several long one's with you, call you with Professor from Victoria and made a big effort to "get you involved" as Professor wished and discussed with me.

David,
I remember the call but I was interested I how the Prof's health was at the time.

As I was acting as both an IMAF board member and Vice-President, communicating directly with the Chairman to discuss my efforts to get you involved, I'm not sure what more you needed.

At that point in time the Prof's health was the top issue so to be honest, I don't remember you asking me a thing about IMAF membership or anything else like that. That may be my blind spot then.

...it was left to me to contact you and others.

After I blew up about being left in the dark about what was happening at the time.

If I was not sufficiently clear, then I apologize, but I do point out that you never responded to me, instead, you posted your decision to affiliate with another organization, Renegade as I recall, so you left me hanging without a reply and I was not finished. If I was lacking in my effort in clarity or thoroughness then I apologize.

Apology accepted. Like I said, I was single minded at the time (RP's health) and I may have missed what else you said. Regarding IAMF participation, IMAF Central wouldn't communicate, Renegade did, hence the affiliation.

The directors are not necessarily the most skilled or best fighters, though they are certainly a broad sampling of seniors from around the world. They ARE the people specifically nominated to lead the art within the framework of the International Modern Arnis Federation.

And there are those of us who are more inclined to be independent.

I will be ready to publish my research in about six weeks time.
Finally, as I have said, I will make available more information and documents to the people named and concerned, and eventually, to the public. After this anniversary I will publish the documents I have referred to, we can then analyzes them together.

Excellent!

Yours,
Dan Anderson

David Hoffman

07-01-2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
Dan;

To further complicate things; people in general are f**king lyers; whether by accident or on purpose. People like to change history to suit their own agenda's. People often like to look at only one side of the story as well; their side.

This is one example Paul, as the posts were made by myself, Dan, Dieter and Tim, It is logical to assume one or more of us where the target

Dan Anderson

07-01-2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
So pulling the "senior" card with me will only get you so far. Just remember that.

Paul Janulis
No Rank, No Title, and Unlisted.

Paul,
Will it get me a beer or will you be listed as "Paul Janulis - No Rank, No Title, No Beer?"

Yours,
Dan Anderson
:drinkbeer

David Hoffman

07-01-2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
Dan;

And you know what? I am glad that I wasn't on the list, and I am glad I wasn't invited to the @$$ kissing party in Victoria, Canada. Back then I was angry, but now I am not; I am just being blunt here. Because I missed it, this makes the issue NOT MY RESPONSABILITY; and while other leaders may bicker, jocky, or hide behind half-truths and ambiguity, I am training and getting better. So watch out, mother f**kers, because if you don't see me right on your tail right now, it is because I am already ahead of you. And you'll only have the pleasure of finding this out when you someday get shown up by a "junior".

Paul Janulis

Again, I can not help but find this offensive. I was invited to travel to Victoria by Professor and his wife Yvette. I gave up a position at a clinic in London to be there to help them. I spent my own limited money on hotels for Professor and myself and a rental car to go to the doctors. I never sought or received any personal or political gain.

The rest of the paragraph seems to paint the seniors mentioned in this post, myself, Dan, Tim and Dieter, in a very poor lite and suggests a hostile agenda..

David Hoffman

07-01-2003, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by arnisador
As for everyone else and for those who like to twist and conceal information; I'll just say that I am glad that I have no skeletons in my closet. So for those of you who have information, yet are hiding it, or twisting it to fit your own agenda, I hope that you someday come clean. And for those of you who are playing the "I know a secret" game, when you really don't have anything but crap on your thumb from sitting on it all day, then I hope you feel real special about yourself.

Again Paul, this seem inflamatory

David Hoffman

07-01-2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
Dan;
Sorry for the rant. Although I have been vocal in the past about certian things, there are a lot of issues that I haven't touched within a mile. The details of the will, and his overall plan and such is one of these issues. I haven't touched these (and won't in a public forum) because I was not there; so my information is second hand.

Dan, if your looking for answers, give me a ring and I can tell you what I know, or at least what I have heard. This might help you in your search.

Here Paul you are making my point that your information is not first hand, yet you offer to share heresay with Dan. If your information is not direct, then perhaps, you should wait until the substantiation is published before offering such heated arguments one way or the other

David Hoffman

07-01-2003, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
Dan;

Just never forget that you are messing around with a dead man's wishes, and if you don't come clean then you are the one who has to wear that black mark on your soul.

My point exactly Paul! Who are we, senior, junior whatever, to question Professor's wishes. As I have clearly stated in my post, I will be offering clear evidence of Professor's written wishes as soon as I am legally able. The are issues of a legal and fiduciary nature that must take presidence as I know you understand. I have said to expect this sometime this summer and I have asked for patience.

Perhaps I am being unfair to you Paul, if so I apolagize. I do think very well of you. I am also interested in your opinion and anything you'd like to relate to me either publicly or by private mail. I am just asking you to hold your fire a bit and let us "old men" explore these important issues in a civil fasion.

Again, I am not adding to my earlyer critisism. You did ask me to quote you and justify my words.

David Hoffman

Datu Tim Hartman

07-02-2003, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Renegade
Dave-

maybe you can tell me about this RENEGADE TIME. Like when was this started, and by whom?

Dave-

you didn't answer my question!

arnisador

07-02-2003, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by David Hoffman

Originally posted by arnisador
As for everyone else and for those who like to twist and conceal information; I'll just say that I am glad that I have no skeletons in my closet. So for those of you who have information, yet are hiding it, or twisting it to fit your own agenda, I hope that you someday come clean. And for those of you who are playing the "I know a secret" game, when you really don't have anything but crap on your thumb from sitting on it all day, then I hope you feel real special about yourself.

Again Paul, this seem inflamatory

Although I think it's clear from context, I'd like to emphasize that the original quote is misattributed to me.

David Hoffman

07-02-2003, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Renegade
Dave-

you didn't answer my question!

Hello Tim,

I'm sorry I did not respond yet. I was hit with a lot of questions at once and I'm not always at my office.

I was referring to the period from the time you issued the public letter distancing yourself from the Federation and introducing your World organization as a alternative competitor. You sent me a copy of your announcement and Professor, who received it from someone else discussed it with me. From that time until our teachers passing I was under the impression you had taken the role of, or been nominated as a renegade. As you use this as your online name I thought you were comfortable representing this. I only mention it as it would explain why you may not have been completely in the loop while the board was being set. During normal times you would have had much more direct contact. Professor, I and others were under the impression you had chosen to go it alone.

As far as the full "inside" story, I have never heard your side of that dispute. As I was not involved I felt it was not my business. Professor did ask me to contact you but I chose not to as I thought I would be meddling. Whatever was said to me was said by Professor and others. I think some of the details may be personal, and it was a difficult and emotional time for everyone, so I would only discuss this with you in more depth privately and only at your request. As we have a long and shared history Tim, I prefer to only think of you in terms of our cordial relationship and your many years of active contribution to Modern Arnis. Not to mention, you were the only other person I know of who Professor called his "adopted son," as I was called since 1984. I can remember so many good things Professor said about you over the many long years. I see no need personally, to focus on a period of misunderstanding.

David Hoffman

07-02-2003, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by arnisador
Again Paul, this seem inflamatory

Although I think it's clear from context, I'd like to emphasize that the original quote is misattributed to me. [/B][/QUOTE]

I am sorry about that. Paul had asked me to quote him and, as I mentioned, I'm not very experience with using the forum. The quote was from Paul of course. Also, I note that others posted while I was answering Paul, this and the fact that I was unsure how to use multiple posts gives the impression I am adding emphasis, I am not.

David Hoffman

arnisador

07-02-2003, 12:52 AM

No worries!

These are difficult but important issues we're discussing and everyone must keep a level head and assume the best of others.

Cruentus

07-02-2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by David Hoffman
Here Paul you are making my point that your information is not first hand, yet you offer to share heresay with Dan. If your information is not direct, then perhaps, you should wait until the substantiation is published before offering such heated arguments one way or the other

I'll address this one first.

I'll give an example, as applied to my field. A fundamental analyst can physically go into a company and observe the innerworkings of the company. That analyst is not allowed to get information that is not available to the "public" or to other shareholders (inside information). They can, however, take 4 or 5 bits and peices of information about the company to come up with a logical conclusion; a conclusion which may not be "public" yet, or a conclusion pointing to a future occurance. This is how a a research analyst will be able to determine on a micro level whether the company's stock is good buy or not.

Now, back to Remy's situation. The problem is that the "facts" are not available firsthand. So, people have their own perceptions to suit their own agenda's. "Everyone has a story".

You say you have some facts, but even with that, I doubt your facts are going to clear up everything; they will probably only lead to more unanswered questions, unfortunatily.

So to apply this to my work example, if I talk to 5 different people who were there during Remy's last days, I am going to get 5 different answers. I can put these answers together to come up with a logical conclusion as to what might have really happened. This I have already done, at least to a level. I myself still have unanswered questions.

In terms of talking to Dan about it; it is not to spread "heresay". It is to share with Dan what I have "heard," being clear and HONEST, as I have been, that my information in not firsthand, so that he can work towards finding some answers. It is not fair for Dan to have all of these unanswered questions. So I would not be spreading heresay for the sake of itself, I would be telling him what I have gathered from others so he can move towards finding some answers.

I see nothing wrong with that.

:cool:

Cruentus

07-02-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Paul,
Will it get me a beer or will you be listed as "Paul Janulis - No Rank, No Title, No Beer?"

Yours,
Dan Anderson
:drinkbeer

Yes Dan....

The Senior card may indeed be a beer ticket with me!:cheers:

Cruentus

07-02-2003, 11:59 AM

In terms of my other "inflamatory" comments, those were all contained in one post, which I clearly stated after MAO and Whoopass addressed it that I was mistaken in my "tone".

Again, I intended to wake some people up, but I came off as angry and possibly insulting.

I thought I corrected this in my proceeding post.

I also don't think that Tim or Dieter took my post as an insult directed at them; it seemed that you took what I said as an insult directed at you. Please note, though, that I mention no names in my rants. Trust me, if I want to insult you personally, I will state your name so that there will be no misconceptions.

I will state again, though, if my description in my previous post fits, then it fits. If it doesn't, then don't take it as an insult towards you, please.

I will say that I apoligize for any misunderstanding that my tone may have caused.

I think that the content of what I have said is still very valid, though. There are people who are lying out there, whether accidently or on purpose. For some, seeing Professor in Victoria was an @$$ kissing party for them, plain and simple. And there are people who have stunted their growth due to their petty behavior out there also.

These facts cannot be denied; you know that the shoe fits for some. If it doesn't fit for you, then once again, please do not take it personally.

So, thank you Mr. Hoffman for qouting me where you think that I was personally insulting so we could things clear up. As I have stated before, my tone could have been better. This would have prevented people from taking my comments as personal insult.

Also, I apoligize for mistakening your comment regarding "maturity", and mistakening your post as "pulling the seniority card."

Your only allowed to pull that card very sparringly; I suggest you follow Dan's example, and pull it when you want free beer! :D

Regarding everything else, I value your input here, as I believe many others do. As soon as you are legally able, I look forward to hearing more about what "facts" you may have.

Your friend in the arts.....

Paul Janulis :cheers:

David Hoffman

07-02-2003, 12:50 PM

Hello Paul,

This all sounds very reasonable. You sound sincere in your research. Heresay does have value when properly attributed
and when it's limitations are acknowledged. The most important
factor is a sincere desire for the truth, with no prior agenda.

Originally posted by PAUL
I'll address this one first.

You say you have some facts, but even with that, I doubt your facts are going to clear up everything; they will probably only lead to more unanswered questions, unfortunatily.

On this, I would just ask you to please not pre judge before I release my facts. If one dismisses the value of something before seeing it, then their research is likely to be clouded.

While I questioned some of your recent statements for their emotional content, I do see you as being sincerely interested in the truth. You are skilled at writing and rhetorical analysis, this can be used very positive, or just serve to complicate and confuse. I again ask you, and in fact everyone, to please withhold your judgement and detailed arguments until you have the whole picture.

Feel free to contact me my mail if you have information you wish to share with me.

Datu David Hoffman

Rich Parsons

07-02-2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by David Hoffman

. . .

On this, I would just ask you to please not pre judge before I release my facts. If one dismisses the value of something before seeing it, then their research is likely to be clouded.

. . .

Datu David Hoffman

Good Afternoon Mr Hoffman,

Call me Rich.

Interesting information you have presented. I like the history and the knowledge, no matter what the point of view or person it comes from. This is not an insult. Just trying to say I like it.

What I have problems with are the people that say they know something and then taunt others and do not tell people.

So, to prejudge before your information is out is bad. To drag out the release of the information or not to release it after mentioning it is bad. People will ask questions and wonder, and assume and discuss it. And like msot times their own fears will be 100% more wrong then any truth possible. Yet, it is human nature.

Keep the information coming, please.

Thank You
:asian:

David Hoffman

07-02-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
In terms of my other "inflamatory" comments, those were all contained in one post, which I clearly stated after MAO and Whoopass addressed it that I was mistaken in my "tone".

Again, I intended to wake some people up, but I came off as angry and possibly insulting.

I thought I corrected this in my proceeding post.

I also don't think that Tim or Dieter took my post as an insult directed at them; it seemed that you took what I said as an insult directed at you. Please note, though, that I mention no names in my rants. Trust me, if I want to insult you personally, I will state your name so that there will be no misconceptions.

I will state again, though, if my description in my previous post fits, then it fits. If it doesn't, then don't take it as an insult towards you, please.

I will say that I apoligize for any misunderstanding that my tone may have caused.

I think that the content of what I have said is still very valid, though. There are people who are lying out there, whether accidently or on purpose. For some, seeing Professor in Victoria was an @$$ kissing party for them, plain and simple. And there are people who have stunted their growth due to their petty behavior out there also.

These facts cannot be denied; you know that the shoe fits for some. If it doesn't fit for you, then once again, please do not take it personally.

So, thank you Mr. Hoffman for qouting me where you think that I was personally insulting so we could things clear up. As I have stated before, my tone could have been better. This would have prevented people from taking my comments as personal insult.

Also, I apoligize for mistakening your comment regarding "maturity", and mistakening your post as "pulling the seniority card."

Your only allowed to pull that card very sparringly; I suggest you follow Dan's example, and pull it when you want free beer! :D

Regarding everything else, I value your input here, as I believe many others do. As soon as you are legally able, I look forward to hearing more about what "facts" you may have.

Your friend in the arts.....

Paul Janulis :cheers:
Hello Paul,

I am very satisfied with your answer. Please note, I posted my reply before I had seen Dan and Brians comments and your response. I don’t have very good internet/computer access when I am at my camp during the summer. Had I seen their comments and your response I would not have added my voice as they had addressed the same points.

You will note that I almost never use the “senior” card.
I don’t like the term and it was seldom used by Professor.
I do not accept the use of seniority to block others,
Only, as in my words to you, when I see it as appropriate.
Also, I don’t drink beer. (Just kidding!)

Regarding Victoria, I am very unclear as to what you are referring to. Perhaps you are not referencing my stay there. As it diverges from this post and seems an issue you have strong emotions/ideas about, I ask you to contact me by private email with your questions and Concerns. I will do my best to consider and value your ideas and comments and I do value your positive input. I will not take issue with someone for having a different opinion or understanding, but I do ask that people remain positive and respectful. I hold myself to this same standard. Ultimately, our diverse Modern Arnis family, young and old, must unite and establish the truth in a spirit of brotherhood. Otherwise, we and the art will suffer damage.

Thank you for taking the time to reflect and reply.

David Hoffman

David Hoffman

07-02-2003, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

What I have problems with are the people that say they know something and then taunt others and do not tell people.

So, to prejudge before your information is out is bad. To drag out the release of the information or not to release it after mentioning it is bad. People will ask questions and wonder, and assume and discuss it. And like msot times their own fears will be 100% more wrong then any truth possible. Yet, it is human nature.

Thank You
:asian:

Hello Rich,

Yes I agree with you on every point. As I have said, I will be offering more information when legally appropriate. I will be able to establish without doubt that I speak for Professor, with his direct and clear written authority. As most people with time in the art know me as a close confident of Professor without a private agenda, and as I have given a timeline, I ask for the benefit of the doubt in the interim.

My intent in pre releasing some details at this point is to ask for a short pause in all the political disputes as there is more information that those with a sincere desire to follow their teachers wishes will find significant. After this pause, we can all discuss and interpret, and hopefully, find a way to honour the last wishes of Remy Amador Presas and thus unite in the spirit of brotherhood. In this way the art with be strengthened as a legacy for future generations.

Datu David Hoffman

Dan Anderson

07-02-2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by David Hoffman

Also, I don’t drink beer. (Just kidding!)
David Hoffman

David,
Of all the things you could possibly post that would be offensive, this is the worst. I hope you are kidding or it is all over between us. The brotherhood of Modern Arnis will only take so much abuse before it is irrepairably damaged.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
:drinkbeer

David Hoffman

07-02-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
David,
Of all the things you could possibly post that would be offensive, this is the worst. I hope you are kidding or it is all over between us. The brotherhood of Modern Arnis will only take so much abuse before it is irrepairably damaged.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
:drinkbeer

Hello Dan,

You caught me fair.
I retract my offensive statement.
I like Larger (Stella Artois) and Guiness.

David

Cruentus

07-02-2003, 03:48 PM

fair enough. I'll wait for your info, Mr. Hoffman, before I make judgements. I have my doubts, particularly in anyone who at this stage in the game claims to speak for professor who isn't professor himself, but I will not let these stiffle my ability to make a logical assessment of what you are going to present.

In terms of Victoria; I will not say much until after you've presented your info. The problem is, as I have admitted, I was not there.

However, it is clear to me that many people had personal motives for seeing Professor in Victoria; whether it was to attain rank, status, favor, or what have you. I don't think that this can be denied.

Another thing that is clear is that there had to have been foul play somewhere along the line. There are just too many questionable things going on. Things from mixed stories regarding titles, intentions, organization, history, etc., all the way to questions regarding embezzled money, and things of a more serious nature. These things have not been cleared up yet to date.

I know that some pretty sorry things went on; I just can't point my finger at "who" exactly at the moment, and to what extent, if you know what I mean. So I have saved the "blaming" until I know more. However, just because I am not "blaming" specific people yet, that doesn't make it any less fustrating. My fustrations might help to explain why I post in an enflamitory manner sometimes.

So, that's what I mean about the "Victoria party"; not only was there a bit too much @$$ kissing going on for my taste, but there was clearly foul play. Other then that, many questions remain.

So perhaps you will enlighten us. I look forward to hearing your information, when you are ready.

One thing that is for sure; I have already decided that because it is not directly my responsability, whatever "truths" or "untruths" are revealed, none of these will prevent my ability to mend relationships, and to do good work for Modern Arnis. To me, this is what is most important.

PAUL :asian:

David Hoffman

07-02-2003, 07:54 PM

Excellent Paul.

You summed up precisely what I am asking for. Word for word.

Additionally, you have persuaded me to also provide a more detailed account of the period you have so many questions about. This goes well beyond what I was alluding to. Before your post, I had thought to keep most of that private as my recollection of those events is a separate issue from that of written instructions.

I understand better now, however, how there may be some sincere and legitimate interest. Previously I, like yourself, mostly thought of people as having a personal agenda in everything, including their interpretation of events. This is to be expected. I had also considered the events as only really the concern of the people directly involved or named. From reading your above post, and the many prior posts you and others have made on this subject, I’ve come to realize there are many people who feel left in the dark and have a sincere desire to understand better. This is a separate matter, but one which I am now convinced must be attended to. I will undertake it with good intention. But I do not wish to be the source of more divisiveness. Additionally, I do not wish to embarrass or bring pain or blame to anyone. Unfortunately, that may be unavoidable. The truth can hurt. Professor told me in Victoria, “The truth always comes out in the end.” In my case, and perhaps in a few others, there has been too much silence. Please consider for a moment, that there are different reasons one is silent. Personal gain is only one such reason. One may remain silent so as to not cause others to feel hurt, also, it is so easy to become the target of others frustrations and failed aspirations.

But as I’ve said you have convinced me. I will address this directly after the anniversary of our teachers passing. On a personal note, may I add? The distance from your initial posts, with which I took issue, and the above which has influenced me, shows the kind of maturity I am talking about. This shows you have the ability to master your emotions, and present a very balanced, persuasive, fair and well thought out position. This is not a matter of age, most older more “senior” people never gain this ability. Keep it up and I have faith you will in fact pass some of your seniors!

Now I would like to turn my attention back what I am working on. I would like to conclude my contribution to this thread and save my further explanation until after I have provided the documents I have referenced. Perhaps the thread can be either locked or returned to it’s original intent. In the meantime, I am very happy to accept private email from anyone wishing to give me their opinions and more importantly, factual information. I will respect the confidentiality of those who request it. Please send correspondence to David@modernarnis.net Thank you all.

Datu David Hoffman