high dans

[TLH3rdDan]

ok ive been thinking about this for a while... so i thought i would ask this on here to see what kind of answers it got...

Do we really need to have so many different dan levels?

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique... so do the arts really need to have 10 different dan levels or in the case of ninjutsu do they really need 15 dan levels? I for one think we dont... the only real reason i can see for so many different levels is simply to identify the "masters" to the uninformed everyday person who has never trained or has simply just begun training... wouldnt it be nice to go back to when it was simply a black belt and not 1st thru 10th dan black belt?

[JTA]

I think it's more of an ego thing than anything else. People like to see themselves progress.

A lot of schools have orange, blue, green, red, purple, etc. IMO there's no need for so many belts, but a lot of people would get discouraged if it took them 3-4 years to go up in rank.

[roryneil]

I totally agree. It's like having your amp that goes to eleven. With so many Black levels, it makes having a black not so special, like a mid-level belt.

[dearnis.com]

With so many Black levels, it makes having a black not so special, like a mid-level belt

Part of me really agrees with this, but part of me really wants to stay with the idea that a shodan is merely a beginning.

I would say the problem is not so much the existence of the higher levels, but the fact that high dan ranks are a dime a dozen.

Chad

[Bob Hubbard]

I think part of it is the differences between eastern and western ideals on grading. I've heard it said that in say Japan, blackbelt is only the first step, like graduating from high school, where as here in the US, we see it as the 'goal', like a masters degree.

I don't have a big issue with the 'time in' promotions, as long as the one being promoted was active. I do have a problem with the guy who hasn't been on the floor in years who thinks he deserveres a bump though.

I'm less thrilled with the 'political' promotions. The "Oh, youre a 3rd with them, well, join us and we'll give you a 4th" crap.

Lets not even get into the multi-level jumps, or the couple of weeks between promotions.



Cost of a Black Belt : $3 + S/H
Printing of the cert indicating you are 43rd dan : $2
Watching you get your ass kicked by a white belt: Priceless.

For everything else, theres "Uki-Card".
:asian:

[tshadowchaser]

I like the idea of white and black belts withthehead of the system wearing whatever belt color he chooses but I also think that intodays world many people must have goals and a way to visably tell who is who.
With no rank defferation after black many today would might have difficulty telling who was senior in a class. The ranks also give us a perspective of order and accomplishment.
In truth if you take all the belts throw them in a corner and have calss, by the end of class you should be able to tell the ranking order by knowledge, performance, ability to do techniques. and whom the instructor has help onadvanced ideas.

[MJS]

In my opinion, I think that alot of people have let the belt ranking go to their head. I mean, it doesn't matter what belt level you are, that is important, it should be how well you know your material and how well you can apply it.

Being a black belt, regardless if it is a 1st degree or 10th degree, does NOT make you into a superman. I've been training for 17 yrs. I'm a 3rd degree black in Kenpo. I've also trained in a few other arts as well. At this point in my training, I could really care less about another level. To me, like I said in the beginning, it is more important to be good at what you know, and be sure that you can make what you know work in a real situation.

Mike

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
ok ive been thinking about this for a while... so i thought i would ask this on here to see what kind of answers it got...

Do we really need to have so many different dan levels?

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique... so do the arts really need to have 10 different dan levels or in the case of ninjutsu do they really need 15 dan levels? I for one think we dont... the only real reason i can see for so many different levels is simply to identify the "masters" to the uninformed everyday person who has never trained or has simply just begun training... wouldnt it be nice to go back to when it was simply a black belt and not 1st thru 10th dan black belt?
Experience

There is no substitute for experience. Experience can mean wisdom. Not only that, but what come on, mastery? I don't think that you can necessarily master a technique. Rather, just get a good understanding of it. Why have higher dans? Well, at one time, it meant you had much more time to practice the technique. I've spent decades working on the simplest techniques, but who can say that I can't better it? It's a never-ending process.

Not even McDojos usually award high level dans unless they start a new organization. Producing high level dan levels is very difficult to do from legit organizations and will be under scrutiny.

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
ok ive been thinking about this for a while... so i thought i would ask this on here to see what kind of answers it got...

Do we really need to have so many different dan levels?

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique... so do the arts really need to have 10 different dan levels or in the case of ninjutsu do they really need 15 dan levels? I for one think we dont... the only real reason i can see for so many different levels is simply to identify the "masters" to the uninformed everyday person who has never trained or has simply just begun training... wouldnt it be nice to go back to when it was simply a black belt and not 1st thru 10th dan black belt?

We have a martial arts organisationn here in Australia where the founder never actually got his blackbelt (he got his brown) from anyone and a few years back his students graded him to 7th dan. Also after 10th dan in Ninjitsu the grades are awarded by the old fashioned buddy system. If 2 or three higher ranks say its good then its good.

Cheers
Sammy

[Shuri-te]

This is not meant to be critical in any way, but the truth is that our ranking system is firmly embedded, and I can't imagine it changing in any way. There are pros and cons. Regarding the pros, I think the idea of rewarding time in rank has merit. One of the best things we can have in karate is lots of old masters who have consistently practiced throughout their lives. Their years of training can bring wisdom, so I wouldn't want to lump together everyone at say 5th dan, because that would not recognize the lifetime achievement of these old masters. If they have achieved great skill in their life, and are good, decent human beings with the character and demeanor befitting a master, then we should hold a place of special respect for them since that, IMO, is their due. High rank accomplishes this goal admirably.

The challenge we have is that there are often no standards so that many get to high dans at a very young age. We have lots of people starting in the arts as children, and for those that are devoted, by the time they are in their 30's they really do have enormous skill. Some systems wouldn't promote them above 5th or maybe 6th dan, but some would promote them higher, based on their remarkable skill.

In looking at the explosion of high dans, one should be cautious in judging the present by looking at the past. I will keep this to a discussion of the growth of karate, but there are parallels in other arts as well. The primary reason for the growth of karate in the US has its historic roots in the closure of WWII. The US required a large presence in Japan, but the Japanese did not want thousands of troops in the heart of Japan, so a deal was eventually reached where the US would locate its large bases in Okinawa. And today, nearly 60 years later, a rather large percentage of Okinawan soil is part of American air and naval bases.

On Okinawa, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of GIs were exposed to karate. Many studied arduously in Okinawan dojos under some of the very best masters. They took this art home with them. Sometimes they took the masters as well. (Oyata is a case in point who was encouraged to come to the US by a group of his students.)

In some cases, Japanese and Okinawan systems sent out "emissaries" to grow the art abroad. And the case of TKD, this was done on a grand scale and this mass migration of Korean TKD teachers to the US is the foundation for the enormous popularity of this art. But regarding karate, it was the numerous GIs who brought the art to all corners of the US.

If you go back to the 60s, there were just a handful. But they began teaching students in the 60s and 70s, and thousands of those students, now with 25, 30, 35 and 40 years in the arts are still active, training and teaching. The important point is that in the 60s, we had a handful of ex GIs in the US all with perhaps 5 years of training. So of course their rank was relatively low. Fast forward 35-40 years, and now we have these senior masters, and their senior students all with 30+ years in the arts. Should we expect a corresponding explosion of high rank as a result. I am not sure how one would argue we should not.

It has been argued that it doesn't seem appropriate for a master in style A to award a 6th dan to a 5th dan in style B. One of the reasons this is done is purely organizational/financial. If the 5th dan has good schools and students under him, but is not really gaining much from his present organization and teacher, then he is, to some degree, on the market. Although this may sound crass, he is open to the highest bidder. If the master of style A really likes how good this 5th dan and his students are, and thinks his system would benefit from bringing this group into his organization, one of inexpensive ways to do this is to promote the 5th dan to a higher rank. Now some may think that this might be ill-deserved. But perhaps the 5th dan hasn't been promoted in many years, and a promotion might be very appropriate.

You could take this argument a step further. Suppose an instructor has not had good experiences as part of other systems. Let's say that after his many years training in many systems, he has concluded that most karate systems teach a lot of bad fighting concepts, and he doesn't want to be part of an organization the insists that all its sensei teach the same old lousy approach to fighting. So this student of the art might find real value in being independent, and this could go on for many years.

In this case, we should expect that he might not have received any promotion in many years as well. Now let's suppose he meets up with a high ranking master of a large system and finds this group is just what he was looking for and wants to join. It is conceivable that the master would award this student a rank commensurate with his years in the art, skill level, quality of students, and contribution to the art. And that just might qualify a skip in rank.

I bring this up because it happened to me. I had been an independent for many years and remained a 3rd dan as a result. Recently I was invited by a respected American master with 39 years in the arts to teach my ideas at his biannual gathering of his 35 blackbelts from the 9 dojos under him.

It couldn't have gone better. In less than 4 hours, I had given them an introduction to my art by teaching nearly 20 combinations, all with takedowns, from the sequential movements of Pinan Shodan.

But that was just the beginning. After years of searching, I had finally found a master who is not only a great person, but values my approach to the art (few kata, lots of applications) and has no intention of imposing his system on me and my students. We are both Shito Ryu stylists and have the same complaints of a system with 50 kata, and he thinks my teaching of just 5 kata has a lot of merit.

His system has a council made up of his senior students, (several 5th and 4th dans). He asked whether any had any reservations about bringing me in as a 5th dan. He told me they all thought it was a good idea, and given that his senior students were only 5th dan, I should consider it a strong vote of confidence.

Some people, myself included, would say that given my time studying various arts (just shy of 30 years) that 5th dan is nothing special, and therefore the skip in rank shouldn't be considered any big deal. Others might argue that any skip in rank is suspect.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and this is a great forum to share them on, in agreement, and respectful disagreement. I would like to commend the contributors to MT for the respect and friendliness I have found on this forum during my recent posts. It has been great.

[Cthulhu]

Back when I was active in Doversola's Okinawa-te system, there were no dan rankings. You got your black belt, and that was it. After that, everything was based on a combination of seniority and additional kata learned from Doversola or his senior instructors. I'm not sure how they do it now.

I've been training for a year and a half with my FMA instructors and I have no rank. That's just fine with me. I don't have that as a distraction. I just train. Or rather, I just get whomped on and hope to learn something in the process. :D

Cthulhu

[tonbo]

Dan rankings are way too embedded in the western mind to be changed at this point. Too many people would cry if you took away their beloved 9th/10th/15th Dan belts.

To a degree (no pun intended), I think that the western idea has merit. It is nice to know who is the senior student in a school, and who has put in the most time. However, a Dan ranking doesn't necessarily indicate *experience*, as has been pointed out. There are folks that I know who are not Black in any style, yet possess quite a wealth of martial knowledge, and I wouldn't want to tangle with them when they are pissed off.

I figure, leave it as it is. Those who value the rank system and measure their skill or worth by it will continue to puff themselves up, and those who are unaffected by it will continue walking their own path.

Black is just the beginning. By achieving that rank, I consider myself as having earned the right to not worry about rank anymore. That is now in the hands of my instructor. I know generally what I can handle and what I can't. At this point, trying to put myself in a category against most others is just pointless. All I know is that I have passed off the basics well enough to start learning the "good stuff". :)

Hey....it's a *belt*. It doesn't define who you are. As a friend of mine once said, upon observing a college boy trying to look real cool in his brand-new leather biker jacket: "The leather don't make the man....the man makes the leather".

As always, your mileage may vary.

Peace--

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by tonbo
Dan rankings are way too embedded in the western mind to be changed at this point. Too many people would cry if you took away their beloved 9th/10th/15th Dan belts.

To a degree (no pun intended), I think that the western idea has merit. It is nice to know who is the senior student in a school, and who has put in the most time. However, a Dan ranking doesn't necessarily indicate *experience*, as has been pointed out. There are folks that I know who are not Black in any style, yet possess quite a wealth of martial knowledge, and I wouldn't want to tangle with them when they are pissed off.

I figure, leave it as it is. Those who value the rank system and measure their skill or worth by it will continue to puff themselves up, and those who are unaffected by it will continue walking their own path.

Black is just the beginning. By achieving that rank, I consider myself as having earned the right to not worry about rank anymore. That is now in the hands of my instructor. I know generally what I can handle and what I can't. At this point, trying to put myself in a category against most others is just pointless. All I know is that I have passed off the basics well enough to start learning the "good stuff". :)

Hey....it's a *belt*. It doesn't define who you are. As a friend of mine once said, upon observing a college boy trying to look real cool in his brand-new leather biker jacket: "The leather don't make the man....the man makes the leather".

As always, your mileage may vary.

Peace--
That's only if people are too lenient with giving out ranks. Ranking systems did at one point meant skill, experience, and power. If you put in 5000 hours and have 500 fights under your belt but still aren't able to do this, then you won't be promoted. There is absolutely no room for the liberal feel-good society.

[tonbo]

If you go back far enough, there was only white and black, when it came to rank. You were either a student or an advanced student. It was because of the western need to measure progress that all the pretty colored belts came in. (At least, that is the version of MA history that I have heard).

I have no quarrel with legitimate, hard-earned rank. I *do* have a problem with people who are more concerned with their rank and showing it off, as opposed to people who are more concerned with what they can do with their knowledge.

I also have a real problem with schools that grade you by video, for the most part. Yeah, it can benefit some that have no other way to train, but.......I mean, really.....even *I* can look good on video, given enough time and rehearsal.

Ah, well.

Peace--

[A.R.K.]

From a business aspect you almost need the various levels, unfortunately.

From a training aspect, different levels are a nicety not a necessity.

I've never been asked prior to an altercation what my rank was :D

:asian:

[Seig]

Originally posted by sammy3170
We have a martial arts organisationn here in Australia where the founder never actually got his blackbelt (he got his brown) from anyone There are more than a few of those around.......

[tonbo]

I've never been asked prior to an altercation what my rank was

You mean, bad guys don't immediately break into a sweat and run when you assume your "I'm a bad mutha" MA stance before an altercation?

Are you implying, then, that the bad guys aren't civil, and don't defer to higher ranks before getting in a fight? Say it ain't so!!

Next, you'll tell me that I really didn't have to register myself as a lethal weapon after earning my Black Belt.......:eek:

:asian:

Peace--

[A.R.K.]

You only have to register the dreaded Black belt judo chop.

:D

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Seig
There are more than a few of those around.......

Its reallt the only major one in Australia at one time having 1000 schools teaching the style. Im not saying 100 full time schools but a black belt instructor teaching a a hall would be considered 1 school. I believe its very segregated now and no where near as strong in numbers.

Cheers
Sammy

[OULobo]

I like to think that the skill level that you demonstrate should speak over and above what belt color you wear. The only other reason to where different forms of identification is to let less experienced students know who to ask questions to. I don't know how many times I have seen people with instructor rank and they couldn't even apply what they "knew" realistically. :rolleyes: I came to believe in the idea that if they don't know by watching me that I am of higher rank, then I shouldn't be wearing that rank afterall. So I don't wear any belt/sash/patch/ect. in training, only at a formal event. Part of being a martial artist is being humble and part of being a warrior is deception.

[Shinzu]

after a while it gets kind of blase blah. i know i am at the beginning of my training. it is a life long goal. not just for the belt. in my system the belt changes at 4th degree. i would be happy if it were just one belt all the time. i dont think it is necessary to set yourself apart all the time.

there will always be MA's that know more than you, and there will always be MA's that know less. we should concentrate more on the value of things than the materialistic aspects.

just my 2cents

[KenpoBruce2006]

Two quotes,

The Karte Kid: Daniel: "What color belt do you have?"

Mr. Miyagi: "JC Penny, $3.98."

The Next Karate Kid: "Mr. Miyagi, I did it, that was great, I did it. Don't I I get a belt or something. Brown Belt, Black Belt.

Mr. Miyagi: Why need belt?"

"Come on, even Elvis had a black belt."

Mr. Miyagi: "Borrow from Elvis, next time you see him."

The way I was taught, the belt is your report card. It indicates what you have learned, not what you are "willing" to do.

Ciao
KenpoBruce2006

[rmclain]

Two quotes,


The Next Karate Kid: "Mr. Miyagi, I did it, that was great, I did it. Don't I I get a belt or something. Brown Belt, Black Belt.

Mr. Miyagi: Why need belt?"

"Come on, even Elvis had a black belt."

Mr. Miyagi: "Borrow from Elvis, next time you see him."



That quote is priceless and cracks me up every time!

R. McLain

[AceHBK]

Two quotes,

The Karte Kid: Daniel: "What color belt do you have?"

Mr. Miyagi: "JC Penny, $3.98."

The Next Karate Kid: "Mr. Miyagi, I did it, that was great, I did it. Don't I I get a belt or something. Brown Belt, Black Belt.

Mr. Miyagi: Why need belt?"

"Come on, even Elvis had a black belt."

Mr. Miyagi: "Borrow from Elvis, next time you see him."

KenpoBruce2006

LOL!!
Well put

[IcemanSK]

Two quotes,

The Karte Kid: Daniel: "What color belt do you have?"

Mr. Miyagi: "JC Penny, $3.98."

The Next Karate Kid: "Mr. Miyagi, I did it, that was great, I did it. Don't I I get a belt or something. Brown Belt, Black Belt.

Mr. Miyagi: Why need belt?"

"Come on, even Elvis had a black belt."

Mr. Miyagi: "Borrow from Elvis, next time you see him."




That's right. Elvis did have a belt, Baby:redcaptur

[Robert Lee]

Used to be that a blackbelt really meant something. And that person did represent the belt. But now days money buys belts 400 600 dollars tests yearly fees on and on. Higher ranks the same. Used to take about 15 years of constent training And improvement to make 5th dan. Now at some schools you almost get a blackbelt a year 5 years 5th dan. respect goes out the window for profit and then people wonder why less people today think very little of the M/A People have seen many so called black belts get into a street fight and loose badly because they really did not represent what that belt required to achive. Then there are still schools that promote slower and better represent the M/A .But have to fight to stay open because down the road is a school that runs the blue light special on time and belts. A little respect needs to return to M/A schools this means less students and less money But better students and less frauds.

[bushidomartialarts]

i think there's great value in continuing to rank and grade students after black belt. provides motivation and recognition and gives the sense that forward progress is possible and necessary.

i dislike how high grade (especially 5+) is handed out in most systems these days: time in grade regardless of experience, political promotions, honorary promotions. that stuff devalues the whole system and makes me suspicious of anybody who uses the word 'master' to describe themselves.

[Henderson]

Our system only promotes up to Yodan (4th). Everything beyond that is a teaching level (Renshi, Shihan, Kyoshi, etc.) and is all based on your ability to teach students, and what you've given back to the art.

:asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

200 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a grade-school education. 100 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a high-school education. 40 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a college degree. Now, there are millions of Americans with Masters and Doctorate degrees.

Martial Arts Dan rankings are the same. 40 years ago, Black Belt was rare. Now, we have almost as many 10th Dans as 7-11 stores. I think there can only be one solution to this situation.

Is it because the critera has gotten easier -- or is it because Martial Artists have gotten better. As I've never met a 10th degree who wasn't more knowledgeable and proficient than I, I conclude that Martial Artists have in fact gotten better.

So, I harken back to my first post on Martial Talk 3 years ago where I proposed the following solution for the problem of recognizing these accomplishments within the Kenpo community:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067


Since the passing of Ed Parker more than a few of the most-senior Kenpo grandmasters have ascended to 10th Dan. Some in the Kenpo community believe that only Mr. Parker deserves 10th Dan and that any other 10th Dan promotions are disrespectful of Mr. Parker's great achievements.

As all who wear the two large red-bands upon their belt are far above me in skill, achievement, experience, and contribution, I am unable and unwilling to dispute any of these promotions. Certainly, these Senior Kenpoists are now and have been making significant contributions to keeping the Kenpo flame going. Certainly these Seniors are continuing to improve their skill, knowledge, and teaching and deserve recognition for this.

As our grandmasters continue to grow in the art, certainly their rank must grow as well. So what do we do to recognize the likes of Mr. Larry Tatum and Mr. Frank Trejo and their peers 10 or 20 years from now if they continue to innovate, contribute and grow at their current pace? It seems that the best way to do this is to bestow additonal rank. I strongly urge the Kenpo community to establish an 11th Dan ranking for the future recognition and promotion of the leaders of our style.

But that brings me back to the point that many Kenpoists believe that only Mr. Parker deserves 10th Dan and that no others can achieve his greatness within Kenpo. If you accept this, and accept my earlier proposition that our current grandmasters need recognition for their future growth, then you must also agree that Mr. Parker should immediately be promoted to 12th Dan.

Furthermore, as our current grandmasters progress further and their disciples eclipse their achievments in the future, additional room needs to be created at the top. As our style continues to prosper, grow and improve, we should see new pinnacles of proficiency. Perhaps every 10 years, we create another Dan level such as 13th, 14th, 15th etc. and continue to posthumously promote Mr. Parker so that he remains one level above the current seniors. By this method, Mr. Parker would be say a 22nd Dan in the year 2100 and maybe a 30th Dan by the year 2200.

I welcome your thoughts on this.

[Flying Crane]

200 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a grade-school education. 100 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a high-school education. 40 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a college degree. Now, there are millions of Americans with Masters and Doctorate degrees.

Martial Arts Dan rankings are the same. 40 years ago, Black Belt was rare. Now, we have almost as many 10th Dans as 7-11 stores. I think there can only be one solution to this situation.

Is it because the critera has gotten easier -- or is it because Martial Artists have gotten better. As I've never met a 10th degree who wasn't more knowledgeable and proficient than I, I conclude that Martial Artists have in fact gotten better.

So, I harken back to my first post on Martial Talk 3 years ago where I proposed the following solution for the problem of recognizing these accomplishments within the Kenpo community:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067

My biggest issue is how quickly these higher dan grades get handed out, or seized, by many of the seniors. Their skill, I am sure, is far far above my own, but I think one needs a little more than 2 or 3 years to jump from 7th to 8th, then to 9th, and 10th, as so often happens. In my opinion, one at these levels should expect 10 or more years per level before they could even consider another promotion, and that promotion should be far from guaranteed. But I think everyone who has been training for 30 or 40 years or more, just expects to be 10th dan at some point, so they give themselves the rank, or get their buddies to bestow it upon them for treatment in kind, and I think that is just stupid.

Personally, I think all dan grades should be eliminated. There should only be two levels: Black Belt Non Instructor, and Black Belt Instructor. Once you reach instructor, there should be no further need to dangle carrots in front of your face, or you really don't deserve the rank you have.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

My biggest issue is how quickly these higher dan grades get handed out, or seized, by many of the seniors. Their skill, I am sure, is far far above my own, but I think one needs a little more than 2 or 3 years to jump from 7th to 8th, then to 9th, and 10th, as so often happens. In my opinion, one at these levels should expect 10 or more years per level before they could even consider another promotion, and that promotion should be far from guaranteed. But I think everyone who has been training for 30 or 40 years or more, just expects to be 10th dan at some point, so they give themselves the rank, or get their buddies to bestow it upon them for treatment in kind, and I think that is just stupid.

Personally, I think all dan grades should be eliminated. There should only be two levels: Black Belt Non Instructor, and Black Belt Instructor. Once you reach instructor, there should be no further need to dangle carrots in front of your face, or you really don't deserve the rank you have.

And that was exactly the hidden message in my ridiculous suggestion.

[Flying Crane]

And that was exactly the hidden message in my ridiculous suggestion.

Damn, dude, I actually thought you were serious. I thought to myself "who is this nutball here on Martial Talk, who gets so wrapped up in rank?" Well, you have restored my respect for you, I am happy to say. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Damn, dude, I actually thought you were serious. I thought to myself "who is this nutball here on Martial Talk, who gets so wrapped up in rank?" Well, you have restored my respect for you, I am happy to say. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Yes, my suggestion was so over-the-top that it had to be rejected. After all... I was suggesting a posthumous 30th Dan...

[Brandon Fisher]

Its not always time in grade but waht you do to promote the arts and better them that gets you higher dan grades.

[Robert Lee]

Its not always time in grade but waht you do to promote the arts and better them that gets you higher dan grades. After 5th dan that becomes true in most arts. But still respect in rank has to return to validate the M/A better. to many 5 and higher ranks that have few years training. Kind of cracker jack promoted ranks. Bad for the M/A But I never worry about belts any more as they do not show skill

[Flying Crane]

I agree with this. Even if higher ranks are given in recognition of what one has done to promote and better the arts, I find it hard to believe that even the hardest working teachers could do enough to better the arts to earn another stripe every 2-3 years. This kind of work typically takes many years of dedication, and someone else should recognize the work and award the rank, rather than seizing it for yourself.

Check out some of the senior people around. Typically, after about 30 years or so of training, they have about a 10th degree. Seems like a long time, but do the math. That's one degree every three years. Maybe if one is dedicated, somewhat gifted, and has a good instructor this could be appropriate for maybe 1st and 2nd degree, (and for most people this would be too quick) but beyond that the time should get longer and longer or it is just kind of a bad joke.

I am not advocating a specific time requirement for rank, but it does give an indication of what is realistic and what is not.

[Brandon Fisher]

After 5th dan that becomes true in most arts. But still respect in rank has to return to validate the M/A better. to many 5 and higher ranks that have few years training. Kind of cracker jack promoted ranks. Bad for the M/A But I never worry about belts any more as they do not show skill
I was at an event a few years back where one instructor had brought several 14-17 year 4th, 5th and 6th Dan black belts. All wearing name tags that said master on them. I refused to call them master as I had more years training than they had been alive.

[Last Fearner]

ok ive been thinking about this for a while... Do we really need to have so many different dan levels?

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique... so do the arts really need to have 10 different dan levels...? I for one think we dont...?

The issue of rank, and the various levels of color belts and degrees has been a controversial one, however I believe it comes mostly from a lack of understanding, rather than an "enlightened insight" to the value of belts. I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone by this, but I have noticed that most people who completely dismiss the use of belts and/or degrees are either novice color belts, low ranking black belts, or those who have studied for a long time in systems that don't use belts.

My question is, how can a person unilaterally denounce something that they have little or no experience with, and do not fully understand. If you have legitimately reached the rank of 9th or 10th Dan, look back at your career and the belt ranking system, and say, "We should do away with belts," then your argument might at least carry some weight. Many people are just agreeing with the "opinions" of other non-high ranking Black Belts who have passed on their limited views on this subject.

Now, before anyone assumes that I am saying this because of my own attachment to rank (currently 6th Dan with the US Chung Do Kwan), I can assure that I have learned the lesson, and agree with the concept that the rank is not the goal, the belt does not make the Master, and too many schools and organizations are handing out belts like candy, or selling them purely for profits with no regard for skill. However, just because many (and I do mean many) are misusing, and abusing the concept of belts, and higer degrees, does not mean that all high ranks are worthless, or that the concept of using degrees should be abandoned. In fact, quite the opposite is true.

For those that have come to the conclusion that the belts (or so many color and degree levels) don't really mean anything, or are not needed, I submit to you that there are subtle lessons to be learned by using them. One of which is this very same "insight" that you have "discovered." By using belts and degrees, we can determine who is in it for that, and who is interested in learning. Without the belts, everyone is forced to focus on one thing, and it becomes more difficult to weed out those who need to learn the lesson of materialism. I can't dangle a carrot in front of someone's nose to find out if they are more interested in the carrot, or the person who can teach them how to plant a garden, if I don't have a carrot to dangle.

On the other hand, belts and degrees serve a purpose greater than stroking one's ego, or even setting goals (which can be useful for those students who need that in the beginning). Those who think that high ranking Dans are only given out for "time" and "teaching" either are not above 5th Dan themselves, or are only familiar with organizations that place no value, or standard of requirements on the higher promotions. There is much more to "earning" a 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th Dan legitimately, for those few who do it right.

I was a much more developed student of the Martial Art at 5th Dan than I was at 4th, and the same is true at 6th Dan than I was at 5th. I am still learning! Although I have seen and understood most, if not all, techniques available to Martial Artists, there are always times of learning new applications, or countless situations and combinations in real-life self defense, not to mention honing your skills to make them better. I expand my knowledge and skills by learning and teaching weapons, Korean language, histiory, culture, philosophy, and other life lessons. The learning does not stop at Black Belt, nor at 4th Dan, and the Martial Art is not just about fighting - - so to think the promotion requirements should be based soley on what "techniques" you know, or your self defense skills, is a limited understanding of what it means to be a Black Belt in the Martial Art . . . any Martial Art!

Teaching is another important issue in that we would not have the high quality students without the skilled masters, and we would not have the skilled masters without the Grandmasters. For those who believe that all these rank variations are the creation of "western" influence, I say that is simply not true. It is a modern developement because of the expansion of Martial Art teaching world wide, but the notion came from the Asians who authorized the rank changes, and implimented them in the first place. They gave themselves higer Dan and "Master" titles to distinguish themselves from the many Westerners who were legitimately earning Black Belts. Then, they become 8th and 9th Dan Grandmasters to distinguish themselves from the dozens, then hundreds of Westerners who were teaching for 20 - 30 years and becoming legitimate Masters at 4th, 5th and 6th Dan.



... wouldnt it be nice to go back to when it was simply a black belt and not 1st thru 10th dan black belt?

Some people do this in small clubs, but then their students, and they themselves are often cut off from higher education and the mainstream of Martial Art benefits. There is no going back. Centuries ago, in Asia, a Martial Art teacher who mastered the skills, survived battles, and taught a handful of students was rare. You did not need to separate rank among them. In the 1800s, a one room school house with one teacher did not need separate rooms for kindergarden through 12th grade. They did not need a principal or superintendant, with a board of teachers to discuss and vote on issues. The one teacher made decisions and knew which students needed what. Today, schools are much more advanced, with too many students for one teacher to teach and assess everyone without written report cards, and grade levels. A teacher's qualifications are identified by their degrees, and titles within the school system.

We need various color belts, and Degrees of the Black Belt for organization, structure, expansion, efficiency, and to verify the qualifications of teachers, and thier seniors as Masters and Grandmasters. Students and Instructors need to be able to walk into a tournament or seminar anywhere and be recognized by their rank because of the legit credentials they produce. Just because some shools don't use proper standards, does not mean the system of standards is wrong. It just means we needs to reach a point where we can recognize which board of examiners actually awards rank to qualified people for the right reasons.

This is my humble opinion! :)
CM D. J. Eisenhart

[Flying Crane]

I was a much more developed student of the Martial Art at 5th Dan than I was at 4th, and the same is true at 6th Dan than I was at 5th. I am still learning!

The learning does not stop at Black Belt, nor at 4th Dan, and the Martial Art is not just about fighting - - so to think the promotion requirements should be based soley on what "techniques" you know, or your self defense skills, is a limited understanding of what it means to be a Black Belt in the Martial Art . . . any Martial Art!

Some people do this in small clubs, but then their students, and they themselves are often cut off from higher education and the mainstream of Martial Art benefits. :)
CM D. J. Eisenhart

You make some interesting points and I am not here to argue with you over it, but wanted to just make a comment: You feel you are a better martial artist at 6th, than you were at 5th, and 4th, and I am sure that is true. I am also sure that would be true if you didn't count rank, or quit counting rank at 1st. You continue to train and learn and get better, and your rank itself does not influence your skill but rather only reflects it. Lack of a ranking system does not prevent continued learning and growth and improvement.

I myself have never been ranked above 1st degree, and neither have I attempted to pursue higher rank thru instructors who might have granted it. Nevertheless, I have continued to train for almost 22 years, and I know I am far better now than I was when I earned my rank, but I have no higher rank to show for it. I have trained in several arts, some of which use rank, and others that do not. Regardless, I know I have grown and my skills have improved, but rank has had little to do with it. I actually find it to be liberating to not have to think about it.

We all need to respect those who are more experienced and more skilled than we are. We always have more that we can learn. But I don't feel that a big heirarchy of rank is the best way to do that.

[Grenadier]

I was at an event a few years back where one instructor had brought several 14-17 year 4th, 5th and 6th Dan black belts.

For a second, I thought you had typed "bought." :)

Seriously, though, having all of these high dan ranks is not necessarily a bad thing at all. If anything, I consider it a good thing, as long as such ranks are only given out to those who honestly earn them. After all, a given system may very well need to differentiate who, amongst the senior yudansha, have done the most for the system over the years.

I do not approve of handing out high ranks of black belts to those who have not earned them, even in an honorary manner. Even worse, are those who try to claim that those honorary ranks are their actual rank.

Don't get me wrong; I have no problems of giving an honorary shodan ranking to excellent practitioners of the martial arts who come from other styles, and have done something significant to help the style in which I study. If they can truly help advance the system, then they do deserve some commendation for it.

If anything, I would consider such an award to be a great honor. However, that rank would still stay "honorary" (unofficial) until that person had passed all of the requirements. Plain and simple.

[Brandon Fisher]

I have seen my knowledge and ability in teaching and technique grow since I was a shodan now has a godan I look back and I see the improvement in my skills both teaching and training. However I look ahead and see there is so much more. I have an idea of when I will be eligible for 6th dan but if it doesn't happen then thats ok to. I am looking forward to a lifetime of learning. But I am one that even though I have masters rank I hate being called master. I think that the term Shihan comes across better. But Sensei is my choice "teacher" who could be called something better.

Last Fearer,
I agree with your explanation and I think you truly understand it.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

For a second, I thought you had typed "bought." :)

Seriously, though, having all of these high dan ranks is not necessarily a bad thing at all. If anything, I consider it a good thing, as long as such ranks are only given out to those who honestly earn them. After all, a given system may very well need to differentiate who, amongst the senior yudansha, have done the most for the system over the years.

I do not approve of handing out high ranks of black belts to those who have not earned them, even in an honorary manner. Even worse, are those who try to claim that those honorary ranks are their actual rank.

Don't get me wrong; I have no problems of giving an honorary shodan ranking to excellent practitioners of the martial arts who come from other styles, and have done something significant to help the style in which I study. If they can truly help advance the system, then they do deserve some commendation for it.

If anything, I would consider such an award to be a great honor. However, that rank would still stay "honorary" (unofficial) until that person had passed all of the requirements. Plain and simple.

No way Jose! No honorary Shodan's. If your style gives a Shodan without the required work, then the work isn't worth doing and your style isn't worth learning.

[tshadowchaser]

Typically, after about 30 years or so of training, they have about a 10th degree

Damn I must of joined the wrong system :rolleyes: I only went up 1 rank every 5 or so years

[Brandon Fisher]

10th dan after thirty years wow that means I better get a promotion about every year and half. I think most 10th dans have a minimum of 40+ years of training.

[Robert Lee]

Belts really do not mean that much if you look at knowledge. So if you were to show knowledge as a belt level then it may mean something to you or others And is structured to different styles. Its like a grade level no more But someday we are out of schools who cares then about that belt. Knowledge that you have gained means so much more. It goes every wher you go It bleeds into all aspects of your life. It has no rank it has only conviction and meaning to you as to who you have became. If the belt level is to be continued it should be with held until the person can represent its meaning. But then what is its meaning. It means you have put forth the effert that is obtained for that level with in your chosen style or way Of Martial training. So Its a grade. No magic happens when a person puts on a belt. What is known inside that person demonstrates itself with out a belt that skill still shines for others to see in performance. So agin the belt just shows and tell others what rank you hold. BUt a certificate tells the same. When a belt is taken away and the person still learns They are learning not to find a belt as a goal they are free to train and improve without being fixed on the idea of rank but no knowledge and performance. But I can not tell others that what they have wore around there waist for many years nothing more then a symbol and they are the same person with or with out a belt

[Kacey]

True seniors are, in my opinion, those who think that they do not deserve the rank they have, and who spend hours upon hours improving their skills, and, even more, passing those skills on to others. The number of stripes on a person's belt represent knowledge (or should - the point of this thread, of course, being that this is not always so). A belt (of any color) is a piece of cloth; if the instructor and student have integrity, then the belt represents knowledge. Like any other area of endeavour, it is possible to find promotion sources that lack that integrity.

I know, through experience, that my seniors truly deserve their rank; however, I have observed others whom I feel may not deserve the rank they have - but those people are not in my organization, and may well qualify under the rules of the organization they belong to.

My belt rank has meaning to me because it was conferred by people whose opinion I trust - not because of the number stripes on it.

[Last Fearner]

You make some interesting points and I am not here to argue with you over it, but wanted to just make a comment: You feel you are a better martial artist at 6th, than you were at 5th, and 4th, and I am sure that is true. I am also sure that would be true if you didn't count rank, or quit counting rank at 1st. You continue to train and learn and get better, and your rank itself does not influence your skill but rather only reflects it. Lack of a ranking system does not prevent continued learning and growth and improvement.

Crane, I agree with you 100% here. The knowledge and skills are separate from the belts and ranks of recognition, and we absolutely can keep learning if we do not use belts at all. My comment here, of course, was in response to the implication that higher Dans are awarded merely on time and teaching, and have nothing to do with improved skill.


after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique...

This statement is, at minimum, misleading. There might not be "new" techniques, but the "mastery" of the techniques is an improvement in skill that is reflected in the promotion, just as the color belt reflects improvement for learning beginning material. So I agree with you that we learn regardless of Dan recognition, but contrary to TLH's statement, I believe the legitimate promotion of 5th Dan and above requires advanced skills beyond time in rank. Also, I do see subtle, and subliminal benefits to the use of a ranking system that would be absent without it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me; I really appreciate it! :)
CM D. J. Eisenhart

[Ross]

Personally, our system is trying to move away from the need to visually see your dan grade on a belt.

Most of our dan grades now just wear black belts, but are still graded through the system as normal.

However, I was recently at an international seminar where there was a lot of red tape being flashed around and a certain level of elitism when they saw a plain black belt around our waist.

Ironically, when the actual contact started many of these "high" dan grades were technically less proficient than some lower grades. Make of this what you will but it was just an experience to share.

[Hand Sword]

And a great one for all to remember too. It's not about the stripes, it's the work you put into them.

[Flying Crane]

10th dan after thirty years wow that means I better get a promotion about every year and half. I think most 10th dans have a minimum of 40+ years of training.

I don't want to call anyone out publically, but I could PM you the website of a well-known senior who proudly proclaimed that after 30 years he decided it was time to assume the rank of 10th degree. I don't doubt his high level skills, but to just assume the rank, after 30 years (again, 3 years per dan grade) to me is just nonsense.

[Flying Crane]

However, I was recently at an international seminar where there was a lot of red tape being flashed around and a certain level of elitism when they saw a plain black belt around our waist.

Ironically, when the actual contact started many of these "high" dan grades were technically less proficient than some lower grades. Make of this what you will but it was just an experience to share.

Kind of funny how those who speak the loudest are often the ones who know the least.

[green meanie]

Personally, our system is trying to move away from the need to visually see your dan grade on a belt. Most of our dan grades now just wear black belts, but are still graded through the system as normal.

However, I was recently at an international seminar where there was a lot of red tape being flashed around and a certain level of elitism when they saw a plain black belt around our waist.

Ironically, when the actual contact started many of these "high" dan grades were technically less proficient than some lower grades. Make of this what you will but it was just an experience to share.

Nice. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Henderson]

...but I could PM you the website of a well-known senior who proudly proclaimed that after 30 years he decided it was time to assume the rank of 10th degree. I don't doubt his high level skills, but to just assume the rank, after 30 years (again, 3 years per dan grade) to me is just nonsense.

What an arrogant ass!

[Robert Lee]

In some styles black belt time and grade is or was 3to 5 years training to test for shodan 2 years after shodan testing for nidan 2 years after nidan testing for sandan 3 to four years after sandan testing yondan .4 to 5 years after yondan testing for godan That adds up to 14 to17 years of constent training to achive 5th degree black belt. Then most dans after is time in grade and what you have done to promote and build respect in your art. that can be from 3 to 5 years agin for each grade. Now 30 years training in a art you could see maybe 7th or 8 th degree black belt But thats effert and time 10 dan is most often never achived unless you start your own group and become reconized. As most 10 dans are founders of style and now days head of organizations. Plus inheritners of as style And when you look at 1 degree rise in rank in these time tables thats fare if you have put in the training time that means being active. Now the belt may mean some what truthful. I have seen people that have less then 6 years training wearing 5th and 6 dan ranking I met a person promoted to 10th dan in a style he never trained. In these cases rank has no to little respect. Sometimes its better to forget belt levels and promote just by certified grade and because now days for every legit black belt there are maybe a 100 that did not work and test hard for what they ware Kind of the buddy and prestige system of rank.

[Flying Crane]

What an arrogant ass!

That was my thought as well. For many people, thirty years just seems to be a magic number of some sort. That gives me eight years to go, and nine degrees. I guess I better get busy!