The Ease...Or Difficulty Of Hitting Targets

[MJS]

I was reading an article in the Mar. 2010 issue of Black Belt recently. It was written by a martial artist from California, named Stephen Tyler. His article was focusing on hitting the eyes. Of course, for the sake of this discussion, any target, ie: face, groin, etc., could be put in, in place of the eyes.

He bases his defense/set up, off of the fence, meaning that his hands are up, in a non-threatening manner, and then he fires off a shot to the eyes, which is usually followed up with other strikes. Now, in every scenario that he shows, he's not necessarily hitting the eyes, per se, but momentarily imparing the vision, to set up other strikes. For example, in one setting, again, from the fence position, he fires off a left palm strike followed by a right cross.

So, upon reading this article, I thought it was pretty interesting, and made sense. So, this brings me to the purpose of this thread. The author is talking about disrupting the vision of the bad guy, either by actually striking the eyes, or by throwing a hit towards the eyes to set up something else, and he makes it seem pretty simple. On the flip side, you have people who say that hitting something such as the eyes, isn't as easy as people claim and its not a fight ender.

IMO, I dont think its as hard as some make it out to be, because if you can hit the face with a punch, it shouldn't take much to target the eyes. In the cases listed, the defense is taking place in a pre-emptive fashion, or before the fight actually starts. Additionally, I will agree with the detractors of the eye shots, in saying that I too, cringe, when I hear people talk about a particular shot, whatever it may be, as a fight ender. Now, I'm not saying that 1 hit KOs dont happen, because we all know they do. However, I'm not going to put all my money on me definately being able to take the guy out with 1 hit. Instead, I use the distraction, hit, etc, to set up other shots. I like to use a series of hits, not just one, to take out the attacker.

I'm interested in hearing other opinions as well. :)

[KenpoTex]

I really like the eye-jab, particularly as a preemptive strike off a "fence" position as you mentioned. One reason is that it is a technique that does not require you to generate power via your base so you can throw it while moving in a manner that would make other shots ineffective. It is also extremely fast because the hand can remain almost totally relaxed throughout the complete technique.

Another reason is that it does not necessarily have to make contact to achieve the desired effect. Obviously if we make contact, we're going to get a reaction. However, the flinch response being what it is, even a near miss will probably cause some distraction and open the door for a power shot with another weapon.

[tshadowchaser]

I like the eye shot. Even if it dose not hit directly into the eye the effect can usually be a distraction to your opponent. Anything that takes his mind or focus off you for a moment must be considered a of vital importance in a fight.

[seasoned]

You are correct, eye strikes are not the end all. But, if done right, as you have said, it allows us time to follow up. As opposed to a finger thrust, which can damage our own fingers, by jamming them, I teach and prefer 2 other ways. (1), The finger flick, used like a jab off of the front hand. (2), Or, in a grappling situation I prefer, and have used thumbs to the eyes. With the thumbs, once contact is made you are close enough while grappling, to grab their head. In the heat of battle, whether standing, on the way to the ground, or on the ground, stabilize their head by grabbing their ear, hair or back of their head and strike with your other open hand. Once you strike the side of their head, your thumb is right in position to stab their eye. You won't kill them, but you can buy valuable time to run or continue the fight. As a final note, a palm heel to the nose puts our fingers close to their eyes, all while supporting their head with the other hand. Just some thoughts to add to this awesome self defense thread starter. :asian:

[repz]

Sounds good, i had a similar lesson like that once.

My instructor was telling me that not many people cant ignore pain. So you can rock someones ribs to the left, and shoot out kick to his face, and chances are hes so fixiated on the pain and the sudden explosion of vunerability from the rib shot that his reaction would be divided. No surprise there, but its so simple its scary.

Also, positioning, clinching, can obstruct the enemies vision. Like shooting a high hook punch on the right side can obstruct the immediate follow up with a right roundhouse to the legs, especially if you are shorter, and do it under the eyes of the enemy. I used to hold my hand to the chest of the enemy, while my right leg followed immediately afterwards on that same side, by the time i pulled my hand back my leg is up halfway to say hello to the face. This is my tactic, since im not a tall guy (under his vision sometimes), but im muscled enough to work inside.

Sometimes people want to make something so complex, but its always good to take the simpler things like i and what the OP mentioned, and study those more intensively to realize the potential of the basics and how you can spice them up a bit.

[MJS]

You are correct, eye strikes are not the end all. But, if done right, as you have said, it allows us time to follow up. As opposed to a finger thrust, which can damage our own fingers, by jamming them, I teach and prefer 2 other ways. (1), The finger flick, used like a jab off of the front hand. (2), Or, in a grappling situation I prefer, and have used thumbs to the eyes. With the thumbs, once contact is made you are close enough while grappling, to grab their head. In the heat of battle, whether standing, on the way to the ground, or on the ground, stabilize their head by grabbing their ear, hair or back of their head and strike with your other open hand. Once you strike the side of their head, your thumb is right in position to stab their eye. You won't kill them, but you can buy valuable time to run or continue the fight. As a final note, a palm heel to the nose puts our fingers close to their eyes, all while supporting their head with the other hand. Just some thoughts to add to this awesome self defense thread starter. :asian:

Great post! Thank you. :) Just wanted to comment on the bold parts.

1) I like the finger flick. In Kenpo, we have a set/form, interestingly enough, called Finger Set. All open hand strikes, consisting of various rakes, whips, flicks, etc., all done with the fingers. Definately some good stuff. :)

2) I've changed the way I do a palm strike, to include just what you said. In the past, I had my fingers curled down, so as to just hit with the palm. However, my teacher does his palm strikes with the fingers out, so as to not only get the effect of the palm, but to also take advantage of the potential hit to the eyes. :D

[Draven]

The eyes are easy target to hit & SD wise can be fight ender. No you won't kill or seriously injure someone but you can mess their vision up for a second or two & that enough to get away. In fact, on the ninjutsu techniques I learn was simply blowing or spitting in someone's face and side stepping at almost the same time. That person flinchs and poof I'm not there anymore. Its hardly a ninjutsu only deal since boxers use the same concept with jabs. SD wise ninjutsu is great in applying that to breaking contact. It basicly falls under that 3Ds methodology; distract (their attention), disrupt (their senses) and distance (yourself from the threat), of classical SD.

Striking the eyes work the same way, although I do believe there are a few ways to "strike eyes" to do some serious and lasting damage. The reason it works so well, even if you don't hit the eyes, is that the closer something is the larger it appears. So then you can snap a fast jab & follow up with powerful cross and ring someone's bell just by jab, step in & cross as a combo.

As far as hitting a small target, we do an exercise at my school where one student puts on swim goggles (the small ones that cover individual eyes) and they have the job of blocking and stopping the attack. The attacker has the fun task of just going for the eye gouge to enter clinch range. So it can and is often done repeatly...

Another thing about the hitting a moving target is that in Karate before its present form & the invention of pads the only way to get a point was the "land" a clean strike to the eyes, temples, nose, chin, throat,solar plexus, kidneys or groin. So if someone wasn't careful they get a broken nose, which is where the light to no contact rules applied. The idea wasn't in developing fighting ability but in having "target practice" at hitting those targets.

My only thing is using any kind of stance, I wouldn't try to be to concerned with the "fence" because I've seen that strategy backfire. I'm more inclided to assume my fighting posture on return from the pre-emptive strike then before it.

[K-man]

My only thing is using any kind of stance, I wouldn't try to be to concerned with the "fence" because I've seen that strategy backfire. I'm more inclined to assume my fighting posture on return from the pre-emptive strike then before it.I'm with you on the fighting posture AFTER the pre-emptive strike but a fighting stance before the pre-emptive strike tells your opponent 'game on'. Before the action commences, particularly if there is a chance to defuse the situation, a neutral stance, with a fence, is what I would be adopting.

[Ironcrane]

The eyes, groin, and knees are targets that I've never had much trouble hitting, but the temple, and liver are targets that I have a hard time getting.

[FearlessFreep]

We're taught that in a fight, you need to take away one of three things: 1) Eyesight, 2) Breathing 3) Balance. You can't fight without all three so in an assault scenario, you seek to eliminate one of those three, depending on what presents itself. *How* you go about doing this depends on the situation and, again, what presents itself.

[Touch Of Death]

When the fight goes to the ground. a handfull of gravel, in the eyes, really seems to get their attention.
Sean

[Deaf Smith]

Guys,

To practice the eye jab till you have it down pat, with very consistant hits, try this:

1. If you have a 'Bob' centry bag, you can use it first! Otherwise any target like a light switch, till you can touch the swich every time.

2. Then mount a rubber ball, like the ones kids used to play 'jacks', on a string and mount it in your garage. Practice the jabs on it. Work your way up till you can hit it moving.

3. Then get friends who wear plactic gogles (and you to) and practice going for each others eyes while the other one practice evasion from those strikes.

But do remember, to use and eye jab you have to be within hand reach. If the other guy has longer arms or can kick well, you might find yourself exposed when trying to use the eye jab.

Deaf

[Bill Mattocks]

I wear glasses. How's that going to work on me? Just curious.

[seasoned]

I wear glasses. How's that going to work on me? Just curious.
(a) Eye jab, (b) reverse punch. If (a) does not work, revert to (b).http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Draven]

I wear glasses. How's that going to work on me? Just curious.

Easy aim for the cheek bones just under the bridge of the nose and use that to guide to the eyes & eye sockets. Just like you can guide spear hand into someone's throat even if they have their chin tucked by guiding the hand up the chest & between the chin and chest.

[Bill Mattocks]

(a) Eye jab, (b) reverse punch. If (a) does not work, revert to (b).http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ah, I get it. Like this?


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bsCjp3NUG2Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bsCjp3NUG2Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

[FearlessFreep]

I wear glasses. How's that going to work on me? Just curious.

Spit

Seriously, that's why I said to remove the eyesight. This *may* take the form of a strike to the eyes, or may take the form of getting something, such as a jacket or sand or spit, into the face. If you are thinking *just* a strike then you are thinking too small.

[MJS]

The eyes are easy target to hit & SD wise can be fight ender. No you won't kill or seriously injure someone but you can mess their vision up for a second or two & that enough to get away. In fact, on the ninjutsu techniques I learn was simply blowing or spitting in someone's face and side stepping at almost the same time. That person flinchs and poof I'm not there anymore. Its hardly a ninjutsu only deal since boxers use the same concept with jabs. SD wise ninjutsu is great in applying that to breaking contact. It basicly falls under that 3Ds methodology; distract (their attention), disrupt (their senses) and distance (yourself from the threat), of classical SD.

Striking the eyes work the same way, although I do believe there are a few ways to "strike eyes" to do some serious and lasting damage. The reason it works so well, even if you don't hit the eyes, is that the closer something is the larger it appears. So then you can snap a fast jab & follow up with powerful cross and ring someone's bell just by jab, step in & cross as a combo.

As far as hitting a small target, we do an exercise at my school where one student puts on swim goggles (the small ones that cover individual eyes) and they have the job of blocking and stopping the attack. The attacker has the fun task of just going for the eye gouge to enter clinch range. So it can and is often done repeatly...

Another thing about the hitting a moving target is that in Karate before its present form & the invention of pads the only way to get a point was the "land" a clean strike to the eyes, temples, nose, chin, throat,solar plexus, kidneys or groin. So if someone wasn't careful they get a broken nose, which is where the light to no contact rules applied. The idea wasn't in developing fighting ability but in having "target practice" at hitting those targets.

Sounds good. :)


My only thing is using any kind of stance, I wouldn't try to be to concerned with the "fence" because I've seen that strategy backfire. I'm more inclided to assume my fighting posture on return from the pre-emptive strike then before it.

Clarify this a bit more please. :) Just so I'm understanding you here...you dont like the idea of a stance before a strike is launched, but instead afterwards. If this is correct, I agree with this. Any aggressive type hand or body posture is a sure fire way to tip off the badguy that you a) want to fight or b) that you're trained in some form of art, be is boxing, karate, etc.

As for the fence...I suggested this because if done right, it slightly blades your body away from the aggressor, it doesnt look like a threatening posture, your hands are open, not clenched, you appear to look like you dont want to fight, your hands are up, and can easily intercept an incoming shot, your hands and arms can easily slam into the badguy, and it gives you a reference as to how close the guy is to you. If he's touching your hands, then you know he's well within your hitting range. Just like that kick that we used to see Royce throw. Wasn't designed to have any effect, but instead he knew that if it could make contact, it would give him the desired result, which was his opponent trying to avoid it, which put them in an awkward position and allowed him to shoot/clinch easily. And it worked. :)

[MJS]

I wear glasses. How's that going to work on me? Just curious.

I do too, when I'm not wearing my contacts. However, IMO, the target doesnt have to make contact to get the desired result. I dont know about you, but prior to getting contacts, any time I saw something coming towards my face, I'd flinch, usually in an effort to protect my glasses. God knows they're not cheap nowadays. :)

So, if I can get a desired result, ie: a flinch, then that may buy me time to follow up with something else. :)

[BLACK LION]

The eyes are a great target even if they are wearing specs.
Now, I only say that in the context of injury. I dont see the point in picking a target such as the eye(or any target for that matter) as a distraction or a time purchase. I personally have a 1 minimum, regardless if its a claw or gouge. If you want an eye, take it but dont tip tap that sheet and expect any good results to come from really band people...

If you take an eye yes you will have time, plenty of time to take other things... but not if what you do to that eye does not mean some sort of medical attention for the person afflicted . If you lacerate a cornea with a thumbnail they will at the least jerk thier head away and reach for that eye...you can wait for his hands to get to the eye before you start breaking other stuff or get there as it happens to make his trip even worse.

[MJS]

The eyes are a great target even if they are wearing specs.
Now, I only say that in the context of injury. I dont see the point in picking a target such as the eye(or any target for that matter) as a distraction or a time purchase. I personally have a 1 minimum, regardless if its a claw or gouge. If you want an eye, take it but dont tip tap that sheet and expect any good results to come from really band people...

If you take an eye yes you will have time, plenty of time to take other things... but not if what you do to that eye does not mean some sort of medical attention for the person afflicted . If you lacerate a cornea with a thumbnail they will at the least jerk thier head away and reach for that eye...you can wait for his hands to get to the eye before you start breaking other stuff or get there as it happens to make his trip even worse.

Agreed. Of course, what I find interesting, is when people say that hitting the eye is a) not easy and b) that people still keep going despite the eye injury. IMHO, if you're training to hit it, it shouldn't be that hard, and second, every hit to the eye that either I've taken or seen someone else take, has stopped them long enough so that if follow up strikes were to be delivered, it would be fairly easy to acomplish that.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Agreed. Of course, what I find interesting, is when people say that hitting the eye is a) not easy and b) that people still keep going despite the eye injury. IMHO, if you're training to hit it, it shouldn't be that hard, and second, every hit to the eye that either I've taken or seen someone else take, has stopped them long enough so that if follow up strikes were to be delivered, it would be fairly easy to acomplish that.

I remember a while back where a mma fighter got a finger in the eye in the octagon. (ufc) He was immediately on the ground and of course unable to continue. Reminds me of the time twenty plus years ago when I was competing in Traverse City and a fellow competitor thumbed me in the eye and I was done and off to the hospital as soon as I got home. I have also personally witnessed a few other blows that hit some ones eyes and they were done as well. (mostly in a fetal position) The target is pretty easy to hit and some times you hit it when you are not even trying. ;)

[BLACK LION]

Agreed. Of course, what I find interesting, is when people say that hitting the eye is a) not easy and b) that people still keep going despite the eye injury. IMHO, if you're training to hit it, it shouldn't be that hard, and second, every hit to the eye that either I've taken or seen someone else take, has stopped them long enough so that if follow up strikes were to be delivered, it would be fairly easy to acomplish that.
Precisely.

Me and my bujinkan buddy went over the eye thing on saturday becuase he brought up the "rake" as a vialble option. I raked his eye(actually, I just shut his eyes for him by suprise)and it bought me a second.
When I stepped in and took his eye by penetrating into the orbital fissures he gave up not just a mere split second, but everything.

[tshadowchaser]

After my workout last night I realised just how often I do eye shots when I am being attacked by someone holding a weapon. Even knowing that I was most likely not going to get cut I found that i instictivly went for eye shots to distract or disable my opponet ( not that I was actualy hitting the eyes but the intent was in the movement even if pulled)
we actualy had to back off on the speed we where woking out at because things started getting a little to real at times

[OzPaul]

The fence can be very good to use. For an in depth look at the application check out these two videos by Geoff Thompson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FGLhlakkUk&feature=related
6:40 onwards on this video is a great speech.
Regards

[chinto]

hay i like strikes to: eyes, groin, throat, neck all the vitals, get in a good one and most fights end, and even if you do not put him down, it will tend to distract and delay him so you can finish.

we have a man who teaches BJJ at our dojo, he said something to me when I commented that I thought he was braver then I am.

I told him i would hesitate to shoot because well i would tend to instinctively put my knee into some ones head who did that to me. ( or at least make a real effort to do so.)

his comment to me in reply was " I would not roll with you as you train for SD. you would gouge my eyes and bite and all kinds of nasty things on instinct!! " so yes they do not let you gouge eyes or strike groin or a lot of things in cage matches for FIGHTER SAFETY. In SD use all the things they don't!!

( we are talking SD here, not sport of course! so no rules but be alive at the end.)

[bushidomartialarts]

I got badly eye-gouged in a wrestling match once. I was unable to continue the match, and pretty much out of it for two days what with the pain.

And it was an accident. The guy's finger was in just the wrong position when I shot for a double-leg.

Eye strikes -- and other precision shots -- are possible and effective. You just have to be experienced enough and have practiced enough to think to use them.

[ATACX GYM]

I really like the eye-jab, particularly as a preemptive strike off a "fence" position as you mentioned. One reason is that it is a technique that does not require you to generate power via your base so you can throw it while moving in a manner that would make other shots ineffective. It is also extremely fast because the hand can remain almost totally relaxed throughout the complete technique.

Another reason is that it does not necessarily have to make contact to achieve the desired effect. Obviously if we make contact, we're going to get a reaction. However, the flinch response being what it is, even a near miss will probably cause some distraction and open the door for a power shot with another weapon.


I teach my students EXACTLY THAT,KenpoTex. It's an extra bad day for the BG when he finds himself on the receiving end of a Snake Strike/finger jab to the eye applied with the unique Kenpo "body whip" method which allows the infamous horrific blizzard of Kenpo strikes blocks checks kicks sweeps etc. to explode into the BG with amazing speed and power...too much speed for 90% of people untrained in the method to HOPE to keep up with it.

[OKenpo942]

Ah, I get it. Like this?


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bsCjp3NUG2Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bsCjp3NUG2Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


Don't think that was quite it Bill. Loved the clip though. Very funny.


I teach my students EXACTLY THAT,KenpoTex. It's an extra bad day for the BG when he finds himself on the receiving end of a Snake Strike/finger jab to the eye applied with the unique Kenpo "body whip" method which allows the infamous horrific blizzard of Kenpo strikes blocks checks kicks sweeps etc. to explode into the BG with amazing speed and power...too much speed for 90% of people untrained in the method to HOPE to keep up with it.

I love striking at the eyes in this way. Very effective even if it misses the target.

I like your explanation... "the infamous horrrific blizzard of Kenpo strikes". Couldn't have said it better myself.

James

[puunui]

If you don't wish to actually poke the eye but rather just want to distract your attacker, then we have a technique from Hapkido that might work for you. What we do is brace the ring and index finger up against the middle finger on the palm side. We then brush the hand across the eyes, the index and middle fingers acting as guides or rails for the middle finger, which actually makes contact with the opponent's eyes. People are very sensitive about their eyes and any sort of contact with the eye ball, no matter how light, is enough to disrupt them for an instant, so you can do something else, joint lock, whatever. The effect is magnified if they are wearing glasses or even contact lenses. You don't have to poke their eye out like White Eyebrow in Kill Bill to make your point. There are other alternatives.