Dimensional Zone Theory

[Dominic Jones]

I�fm trying to teach the Zones of Height, Width, Depth and Obscurity to my students. These are the 4 Zones of the Dimensional Zone Theory- See Ed Parkers "Infinite Insites into Kenpo" for more info.

I can teach my students where the Zones are and tell them that controlling these Zones helps you to:
Cover your targets,
Find targets on your opponent
Reduce their ability to move/kick
Reduce their ability to pivot/strike.
Recognize that it�fs best to attack your opponent from their zone of obscurity.
Recognize which of your weapons are closest to your Opponents targets.
Etc.

I can demonstrate controlling the Width and Height Zones of an opponent. For example, the base move of the Freestyle Techniques provides an Angle of Cancellation as it controls both the Height and Width Zones..

I think that Depth Zones are controlled by/dependant on the Height and Width Zones. That is Height and Width Zones can be varied independently of each other but that Depth Zones cannot be varied without affecting Height and Width Zones (and vice versa).

Zones of Obscurity are easy to demonstrate as well. For example, techniques such as �gDeflecting Hammer�h

I show that Obscurity for one can be the Sanctuary of the other. In fact you should take all three points of view when using the Dimensional Zone Theory

A tricky topic for me to write about. What views do you have, what other advantages can you show students about these Zones?

Cheers Dominic

[Touch Of Death]

The wording we use is that one will work to cancel his H/W/D zones. Thats about the only thing that pops into my mind right now.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Dominic Jones
I�fm trying to teach the Zones of Height, Width, Depth and Obscurity to my students. These are the 4 Zones of the Dimensional Zone Theory- See Ed Parkers "Infinite Insites into Kenpo" for more info.

I can teach my students where the Zones are and tell them that controlling these Zones helps you to:
Cover your targets,
Find targets on your opponent
Reduce their ability to move/kick
Reduce their ability to pivot/strike.
Recognize that it�fs best to attack your opponent from their zone of obscurity.
Recognize which of your weapons are closest to your Opponents targets.
Etc.

I can demonstrate controlling the Width and Height Zones of an opponent. For example, the base move of the Freestyle Techniques provides an Angle of Cancellation as it controls both the Height and Width Zones..

I think that Depth Zones are controlled by/dependant on the Height and Width Zones. That is Height and Width Zones can be varied independently of each other but that Depth Zones cannot be varied without affecting Height and Width Zones (and vice versa).

Zones of Obscurity are easy to demonstrate as well. For example, techniques such as �gDeflecting Hammer�h

I show that Obscurity for one can be the Sanctuary of the other. In fact you should take all three points of view when using the Dimensional Zone Theory

A tricky topic for me to write about. What views do you have, what other advantages can you show students about these Zones?

Cheers Dominic

Cancelling Dimensions cancels weapons


To cancel height take your opponent up or down, it will cancel the lower half of the body or the legs.

To cancel width, push, pull, joint lock, or mirror image, it will cancel one half of the body or one arm and one leg on one side.

to cancel depth, move in or away, it will cancel the range of weapons of your opponent, long, medium, short, and super short (headbutt and bite range).

I really don't use obscurity as a dimension rather I use time, to regulate, adjust and monitor yours and your oppenent's action.

Hope that helped

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Touch Of Death]

Oh Yea, we cancel his zones by effecting his posture or his balance.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Oh Yea, we cancel his zones by effecting his posture or his balance.

cancelling any of the dimensions either singularly or multiple will affect posture and/or balance, you've got it in reverse for the purpose of this thread.

Have a great Kenpo day


Clyde

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
cancelling any of the dimensions either singularly or multiple will affect posture and/or balance, you've got it in reverse for the purpose of this thread.



Clyde

Respectfully,
I think choosing your method of canceling these zones is a descision that needs to be made first. Its a tripping arrow idea or a delayed sword idea. Deciding which method will carry out your plan of action is more imprtant than compiling a list of moves that effect the zones one way or the other.
Sean

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Respectfully,
I think choosing your method of canceling these zones is a descision that needs to be made first. Its a tripping arrow idea or a delayed sword idea. Deciding which method will carry out your plan of action is more imprtant than compiling a list of moves that effect the zones one way or the other.
Sean

I will agree with that, but nevertheless, if I kick his leg in order to affect a height change it will inadverdently affect a width change as well as affect his balance and posture. The same could be said of stepping back in let's say, Thrusting Prongs. You step back in order to establish a base and prevent them from lifting you, but the residual effect is you've now cancelled height and depth with that motion. If you are aware of the factors that determine the cancellation of dimensions then the method you use is irellevant to the anatomical alignment of your opponent as long as the desired effect is achieved. Hmm, that sounds a bit too technical but true.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Handsword]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Cancelling Dimensions cancels weapons


To cancel height take your opponent up or down, it will cancel the lower half of the body or the legs.

To cancel width, push, pull, joint lock, or mirror image, it will cancel one half of the body or one arm and one leg on one side.

to cancel depth, move in or away, it will cancel the range of weapons of your opponent, long, medium, short, and super short (headbutt and bite range).



I was just wondering how mirror imaging your opponent cancels width? Won't this place you equally close to his/her natural weapons on either side of the body?

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Handsword
I was just wondering how mirror imaging your opponent cancels width? Won't this place you equally close to his/her natural weapons on either side of the body?

I suppose it comes down to what perspective you're taking. When I refer to mirror imaging I mean true mirror. If they are in a right neutral you'd be in a left. Yes it does keep you both in a width ck however. Hope that helped


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
I will agree with that, but nevertheless, if I kick his leg in order to affect a height change it will inadverdently affect...

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
Let me ask you this. Why do you kick with the inent of effecting heighth? Do you feel that is part of a balance/ posture catagory?
Curious

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Let me ask you this. Why do you kick with the inent of effecting heighth? Do you feel that is part of a balance/ posture catagory?
Curious

Seems reasonable to expect that when you extend their base you've put them in a position where they have to readjust their weight distribution in order to effectively kick you, cancelling height/legs as I've added weight to the kicked appendage. The residual effect is an out of balance position and more possibly a more advantageous position to strike with arms, elbows, and knees as well as working through the their depth zones.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Touch Of Death]

I feel we are talking about the same thing; however, we approach it from a posture or balance method of attack and the cancelation of zones is a residual effect of controling his position. Incidently we change the techs based on that desire; so, on a glancing salute idea we may forgo the knee to the groin in favor of continuing a tripping arrow after the heel palm or we might work his posture only. Obviously some techs work both ideas so that leaves "us" with some choices to make... every time.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I feel we are talking about the same thing; however, we approach it from a posture or balance method of attack and the cancelation of zones is a residual effect of controling his position. Incidently we change the techs based on that desire; so, on a glancing salute idea we may forgo the knee to the groin in favor of continuing a tripping arrow after the heel palm or we might work his posture only. Obviously some techs work both ideas so that leaves "us" with some choices to make... every time.

Controlling position is controlling dimensions & controlling dimensions is controlling position. I don't think I could grok learning it the other way around, I'd be confused all the time trying to figure out if I wanted to disturb balance or posture. I'm stuck on cancelling a dimension.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Touch Of Death]

Hey, I understand. I do feel however that you should at least keep it in the back of your mind. That is the way I've learned the art in my upper belts so I don't have an alternative way of thinking about it. Oh well.

[Dominic Jones]

Thanks for all the replies! I think the mist is clearing.

So to check height zones, you alter the height of your attacker by raising them up or bringing them down. The benefits are: Reducing their ability to move their lower body and kick.
Possibly exposing different target areas

To check width zones, you alter the width of your attacker by pushing, pulling, joint locking or mirror imagining them. The benefits are:
Reducing their ability to move their upper body and punch/strike.
Expose different target areas. Be careful because you can only control one side of your attackers body (weapons) at a time.

To check depth zones, you move closer or further away from your attacker by moving yourself, moving your attacker and/or checking their height or width zones. The benefits are protecting your targets and moving their targets into range of your weapons (remember the reverse is also true exposing your targets and moving their targets out of range).

The other benefit of visualizing depth zones is that they allow you to choose the closest targets to attack and so allow you to move through the depth zones to get to arguably more major targets.

Cheers Dominic :asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Dominic Jones
Thanks for all the replies! I think the mist is clearing.

So to check height zones, you alter the height of your attacker by raising them up or bringing them down. The benefits are: Reducing their ability to move their lower body and kick.
Possibly exposing different target areas

To check width zones, you alter the width of your attacker by pushing, pulling, joint locking or mirror imagining them. The benefits are:
Reducing their ability to move their upper body and punch/strike.
Expose different target areas. Be careful because you can only control one side of your attackers body (weapons) at a time.

To check depth zones, you move closer or further away from your attacker by moving yourself, moving your attacker and/or checking their height or width zones. The benefits are protecting your targets and moving their targets into range of your weapons (remember the reverse is also true exposing your targets and moving their targets out of range).

The other benefit of visualizing depth zones is that they allow you to choose the closest targets to attack and so allow you to move through the depth zones to get to arguably more major targets.

Cheers Dominic :asian:

I say old chap, I think you've got it LOL., except the width cancelling, you'll cancel one half of your opponents body being one arm and leg so they can use neither of them with effect, but the rest is spot on. With the additional info you added I'm sure you'll be able to teach that to anyone, good job. I'm glad I could be of some help.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[ArnoldLee]

Originally posted by Dominic Jones
To check depth zones, you move closer or further away from your attacker by moving yourself, moving your attacker and/or checking their height or width zones. The benefits are protecting your targets and moving their targets into range of your weapons (remember the reverse is also true exposing your targets and moving their targets out of range).


Another way to check depth zones is by simply hitting your opponent. In seminars Mr. Parker would use a freestyle technique all the time to demonstrate checking. He would yank sideways on an arm to demonstrate checking width then downwards to check height, (then diagonally to check both) then ask how would you check depth (as in the person trying to charge you)? When no answer was forthcoming he would just stuff the person in the face with his massive fist--simple and elegant. :asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by ArnoldLee
Another way to check depth zones is by simply hitting your opponent. In seminars Mr. Parker would use a freestyle technique all the time to demonstrate checking. He would yank sideways on an arm to demonstrate checking width then downwards to check height, (then diagonally to check both) then ask how would you check depth (as in the person trying to charge you)? When no answer was forthcoming he would just stuff the person in the face with his massive fist--simple and elegant. :asian:


You are absolutely correct, a prime example of this principle is in Attacking Mace and Evading the Storm. After the kick you grab the wrist and pull simultaneously thrust punching their kidney. That punch is the depth and height ck of your opponent simply by position. Great designs huh?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[rmcrobertson]

A beautiful illustration of why checking height, width and depth is essential was just vouchsafed (thought I'd use a little of that psuedo-Biblical language common on forums...) to me, as I drove through downtown Redlands...

Waiting at the light, I looked over through the front doors of one of the local dojos...I won't say what style, other than it happened to be a Korean style (yes, I know they all aren't like this) but they were teaching techniques against a) a front two-hand choke, b) a rear two-hand choke, c) a front left-hand hair grab...

The techs used against the chokes front and back amounted to this: do a rear cross with your left foot (raising it off the mat as you step!) and hammer or arm-bar with your right. Against the hair-grab, rear cross with your left foot (again, lifting it off the mat!) and hammer/arm-bar with your right ...

I'm afraid I sat there at the light frozen in horror..."Dude!" I thought (and I'm way too old to be thinking, "Dude!"), "You are so gonna get kicked in the groin...or punched in the face...or kneed...or reversed...." For that matter, I thought, "Why the hell are you expecting them to hang onto you that way?"

No pin of the arms; in fact, no checks at all. No sense at all that they were easily in unchecked range of something nasty: no sense at all that the attacker might react, that a hand/arm might orbit, that they might just shove forward and go right through you...

It's hard to run Twin Kimono, Twirling Wings, and Clutching Feathers sitting in a Jetta. But I tried, and I think the guy teaching the class saw me...not very good manners on my part, and the guy behind me must have been less than thrilled...but damn.

it isn't just the one style either. About three years ago, I worked out with a solid black belt in Lima Lama...same problem. He kept saying, "See, now we have you locked up," I kept looking at his groin and/or kneecap and thinking, "Ah......no ya don't." I recollect he particularly disliked Crossing Talon, because he couldn't see the difference between that and what he was doing...which, again, was to trust to reacting really, really quickly, and slamming an opponent down with the first shot...

The checking system is your buddy. At least, I've found it so.

Interesting discussion, though: thanks.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by ArnoldLee
Another way to check depth zones is by simply hitting your opponent. In seminars Mr. Parker would use a freestyle technique all the time to demonstrate checking. He would yank sideways on an arm to demonstrate checking width then downwards to check height, (then diagonally to check both) then ask how would you check depth (as in the person trying to charge you)? When no answer was forthcoming he would just stuff the person in the face with his massive fist--simple and elegant. :asian:

A few years ago, I was told by a 1st Black, that he didn't need to use technique to create base diturbance. He told me, "If I punch you in the face, then I know your base is going to be disturbed."

I suppose he was right, but some how I don't think it fits with the different kinds of cancellation described here.:D

--Dave

:asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
A few years ago, I was told by a 1st Black, that he didn't need to use technique to create base diturbance. He told me, "If I punch you in the face, then I know your base is going to be disturbed."

I suppose he was right, but some how I don't think it fits with the different kinds of cancellation described here.:D

--Dave

:asian:

That's not exactly true either as I've seen lots of guys get punched in the face and not have it disturb the base, but it does provide a momentary depth ck. The same action of using a punch to keep a width and depth ck is also seen in the technique Darting Mace, although at a different level on the body, or at least the way I do it.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[ArnoldLee]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
A few years ago, I was told by a 1st Black, that he didn't need to use technique to create base diturbance. He told me, "If I punch you in the face, then I know your base is going to be disturbed."

I suppose he was right, but some how I don't think it fits with the different kinds of cancellation described here.:D

--Dave

:asian:

Actually it is the kind of cancellation I'm describing, but for depth.... I'm sorry I must not have been clear in my first post. When Mr. Parker was doing this he did not JUST punch. He would get into a right to right neutral and, as he pulled downward diagonally with his right hand to cancel width and height he would simultaneously thrust with his left hand. This way the person was completely checked out (and in a lot of pain to boot). But I completely agree with you and Clyde in that just punching and not using technique wouldn't fit in with what is being described.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by ArnoldLee
Actually it is the kind of cancellation I'm describing, but for depth.... I'm sorry I must not have been clear in my first post. When Mr. Parker was doing this he did not JUST punch. He would get into a right to right neutral and, as he pulled downward diagonally with his right hand to cancel width and height he would simultaneously thrust with his left hand. This way the person was completely checked out (and in a lot of pain to boot). But I completely agree with you and Clyde in that just punching and not using technique wouldn't fit in with what is being described.

What you're describing is a version of B1a, one of the more commonly taught freestyle techniques in Kenpo.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[ob2c]

Originally posted by Dominic Jones
To check depth zones, you move closer or further away from your attacker by moving yourself, moving your attacker and/or checking their height or width zones. The benefits are protecting your targets and moving their targets into range of your weapons (remember the reverse is also true exposing your targets and moving their targets out of range).

The other benefit of visualizing depth zones is that they allow you to choose the closest targets to attack and so allow you to move through the depth zones to get to arguably more major targets.

Other ways to check depth are stop hits, jams, and strikes. Examples: Stop hit- the double fist strike to his lower ribs in Hooking Wings which stops his forward momentum. Jam- in Calming the Storm we do a heel palm to the right shoulder immediately after the first move (block and punch), which momentarily disrupts his recovery and prevents him moving either forward or back in ballance. Strikes- the claw to the eyes in Thrusting Wedge will inhibit (but probably not stop) forward momentum. But that next move checks all three dimensions. The pull turns him and brings him forward, the elbow stops him in his tracks and raises him up, checking both height and depth.

Now, I have a question. In the first two examples I gave, momentum was clearly stoped and depth checked momentarily. But in TW the wedge and claw inhibited but did not necessarily stop forward momentum. In fact, you don't want it stoped, your objective is to gain control and use it against him. To me, this is still a check because you have controled a deminsion, though not totally until the next move. How do you see this? Would you classify the first move as a full check?

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by ob2c
Other ways to check depth are stop hits, jams, and strikes. Examples: Stop hit- the double fist strike to his lower ribs in Hooking Wings which stops his forward momentum. Jam- in Calming the Storm we do a heel palm to the right shoulder immediately after the first move (block and punch), which momentarily disrupts his recovery and prevents him moving either forward or back in ballance. Strikes- the claw to the eyes in Thrusting Wedge will inhibit (but probably not stop) forward momentum. But that next move checks all three dimensions. The pull turns him and brings him forward, the elbow stops him in his tracks and raises him up, checking both height and depth.

Now, I have a question. In the first two examples I gave, momentum was clearly stoped and depth checked momentarily. But in TW the wedge and claw inhibited but did not necessarily stop forward momentum. In fact, you don't want it stoped, your objective is to gain control and use it against him. To me, this is still a check because you have controled a deminsion, though not totally until the next move. How do you see this? Would you classify the first move as a full check?

I don't know which Hooking Wings you're referring to, the only techniques I know that start the way you mentioned are Thrusting Prongs and Fatal Cross.

I've always turned the finger pokes in Thrusting Wedge into double claw heel palms to get a momentary depth ck. This also gives them time to react to the strike, or more importantly, to monitor, time, and adjust your technique. I then use their right arm and pull down and in to utilize opposing forces with the elbow. When done well, you'll notice their groin hit just above your knee (at least when done on someone close to your height).


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[ob2c]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
I don't know which Hooking Wings you're referring to, the only techniques I know that start the way you mentioned are Thrusting Prongs and Fatal Cross.

From my notes:
Hooking Wings i/s defense > 2 hand low push

*Left foot back to 6:00 into a right neutral bow as both hands hook (crane) inside his wrists. The double hook coupled with your backward momentum, and his forward momentum, pulls his arms out, down, and past your hips.

*Immediately pivot into a right forward bow and deliver a double punch to his lower ribs. This stops his forward momentum.

That is how I learned the first part of Hooking Wings. (The technique continues with the groin kick and figure eight strikes, which are not germain to the discussion- so I won't continue). Do you do this technique differently? Also, do you do a double punch in Thrusting Prongs? If so, is that a variation? I'm having trouble visualizing that strike from a front bear hug, arms pined.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by ob2c
From my notes:
Hooking Wings i/s defense > 2 hand low push

*Left foot back to 6:00 into a right neutral bow as both hands hook (crane) inside his wrists. The double hook coupled with your backward momentum, and his forward momentum, pulls his arms out, down, and past your hips.

*Immediately pivot into a right forward bow and deliver a double punch to his lower ribs. This stops his forward momentum.

That is how I learned the first part of Hooking Wings. (The technique continues with the groin kick and figure eight strikes, which are not germain to the discussion- so I won't continue). Do you do this technique differently? Also, do you do a double punch in Thrusting Prongs? If so, is that a variation? I'm having trouble visualizing that strike from a front bear hug, arms pined.

This was taken from the KenpoNet and it's more or less the way I do it.

1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a two-hand low push.

2. Step your left foot back to 6 o'clock as you pull your right back into a cat stance facing 12 o'clock. As you step back, simultaneously execute right and left outward hooking parries, hooking to the inside of your attacker's wrists. Note: This could also be a grab if you wish.

Grafting Flow
Circling Fans
Fatal Cross
3. Execute a right front snap kick to your attacker's groin as you continue the motion of your right arm back and behind you.
4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you utilize marriage of gravity and back-up mass and execute a right inward hammerfist across your attacker's nose.

5. Continue the figure-8 motion as you execute a right outward backfist to your attacker's right temple.

6. Shuffle in a bit as you execute a right upward elbow. Note: This adds back-up mass to the strike.

7. Execute a right outward overhead elbow down onto your attacker's sternum as you execute a right overhead claw to your attacker's face.

8. Cross out towards 7:30.
__________________________________________________ __

Thrusting Prongs (Front- Bear Hug; Arms Pinned)
1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug, and pins your arms.

2. Step back into a left forward bow (dropping your right foot back to 6 o'clock) as you execute simultaneous thumb strikes to your attacker's bladder. (I use Phoenix Eye fists)

3. As your left hand checks your attacker's right arm, have your right hand execute a frictional pull on your attacker's left arm. Simultaneous with this motion, execute a right knee strike to your attacker's groin.

4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's face.

5. Cross out towards 7:30.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde