Could be I'm old and been at this too long

[Xue Sheng]

Am I missing something, have I been at MA to long, am I a dinosaur or is it just that I have trained Traditional Chinese Martial Arts to long.

I see a lot of posts about how many times you go to class or how often does your teacher work on that in class or I’m to lazy to get to class to train.

Most of your time training on any thing in TCMA is by yourself you should not need to see your teacher everyday to work on basics, you should do those on your own. And if you can see your teacher everyday that is great but if you can’t you really should be working on what he/she has shown you outside of class as often as possible.

[ATC]

Xue Sheng - I agree with everything you stated but I see no wrong in also going to class and getting that feed back that is so needed to correct your techniques that you should be also practicing at home.

Easier to creat good habits rather than break them.

[Xinglu]

It's very much a TCMA thing, however, I agree with you. Even in TJMA they expect you to train outside of class as often as possible. However with the popularization of the arts, you're seeing more and more instructors who seem to not be as pushy about it, thus students who don't do it.

[chrispillertkd]

Heh. I remember being a yellow belt and my instructor asking the class how many people trained on the days they weren't in class. She was very surprised when not everyone raised their hand (well, she acted surprised, anyway).

She then asked us why we all weren't practicing on "off" days, to which I had no good answer. I "tie my belt" everyday even if just figuratively. As you get higher in rank in ITF Taekwon-Do there's just too many things that need to be practicedd on a consistent basis if you want to keep a good level of skill. My Master Instructor turned 60 last year and he trains daily (and is more powerful now than he was a few years ago and can still do all sorts of crazy flying multiple kicks).

Pax,

Chris

[Blade96]

Am I missing something, have I been at MA to long, am I a dinosaur or is it just that I have trained Traditional Chinese Martial Arts to long.

I see a lot of posts about how many times you go to class or how often does your teacher work on that in class or I’m to lazy to get to class to train.

Most of your time training on any thing in TCMA is by yourself you should not need to see your teacher everyday to work on basics, you should do those on your own. And if you can see your teacher everyday that is great but if you can’t you really should be working on what he/she has shown you outside of class as often as possible.

AMEN to that. There isnt a day goes by that i dont do something shotokanny. Today I practiced my ushiro geri that I learned last night.


Heh. I remember being a yellow belt and my instructor asking the class how many people trained on the days they weren't in class. She was very surprised when not everyone raised their hand (well, she acted surprised, anyway).

She then asked us why we all weren't practicing on "off" days, to which I had no good answer. I "tie my belt" everyday even if just figuratively. As you get higher in rank in ITF Taekwon-Do there's just too many things that need to be practicedd on a consistent basis if you want to keep a good level of skill. My Master Instructor turned 60 last year and he trains daily (and is more powerful now than he was a few years ago and can still do all sorts of crazy flying multiple kicks).

Pax,

Chris

Ha! On jan 8, first day back from Christmas, sensei asked how many trained over the holidays? I was the only one who raised a hand. and the fact that they didnt train did show up in class because they were rusty - even black and brown belts! and sensei said to me after, "Buncha wusses, slackin' off" LOL.

[Stonecold]

If you want to get better and really know your art you train on your own, if you go to martial arts class so you can brag to your friends that you do, there no need for extra training, till one day you really need your skill.
The effort pay's for itself, the choice is yours !!!!

[MA-Caver]

Sometimes we can end up getting the feeling of being burnt out... doing it for years and years and thus nothing new seems to come in. This is with almost everything else. So perhaps it's not that you're too old or been doing it TOO long ... just need a change. You do cross train don't you? If not then maybe try something radically different from TCMA. Or take up a new hobby/activity and get into that for a while. You can still practice at home your art but now you got something different to compare it to.
Even trying to incorporate your art into something else. I apply many of my MA techs to caving... not fighting techs but flowing movement, energy conservation, balance, concentrating, etc.
I know you got your knee to think about, so find something that is less strenuous on your knee or something that will help BUILD UP that knee strength...
Change is good when you get started feeling like you are right now.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Xue like you I am often amazed that more people do not practice in some form every day. I know personally for myself and the close people I train with it is an every day thing. Constantly on our minds and constantly making the time to train and try to polish that stone and get better. At the core of that is of course constant attention to those basics and trying to keep them sharp and ready to go if needed. Still, throughout the years I have noticed that not everyone has this mind set. I guess we are just the lucky ones! :) The older dinosaurs!!!

[Rich Parsons]

Am I missing something, have I been at MA to long, am I a dinosaur or is it just that I have trained Traditional Chinese Martial Arts to long.

I see a lot of posts about how many times you go to class or how often does your teacher work on that in class or I’m to lazy to get to class to train.

Most of your time training on any thing in TCMA is by yourself you should not need to see your teacher everyday to work on basics, you should do those on your own. And if you can see your teacher everyday that is great but if you can’t you really should be working on what he/she has shown you outside of class as often as possible.

Xue Sheng,

Yes you are Old. But so am I. ;)

I also find it frustrating to read about there are no clubs near me. Within 1 to 5 miles of their home or to and from work and or school. Those who are serious drive an hour once a week or more and or drive longer to get good training in teh art they want.

People want spoon feeding and to just sit through it and get better. Working out alone is critical, and most people think that they can only learn in class. Do your homework and make it your own. If you do so then you will have a better insight into your training and will ask more insightful questions to your instructors and the time spent will be mroe value added as they will be able to address your questions. But if you cannot practice the basics at home by yourself and get that down then the insturctors have to do it in class and this could seem very boring as they always have to go over the basics. "Why can't they just teach me what I want?"

Well can you integrate the area under the curve if you do not understand basic mathematics? Nope.

But you already know this. :D

[Drac]

When I got into a real dojo full time I had to train everyday..I had just recovered from a serious injury and had to learn how to walk again about a year prior..When I wasnt in class I was at home practicing what I had been shown in the previous lesson..

[kidswarrior]

Most of your time training on any thing in TCMA is by yourself you should not need to see your teacher everyday to work on basics, you should do those on your own. And if you can see your teacher everyday that is great but if you can’t you really should be working on what he/she has shown you outside of class as often as possible.I think maybe the difference is between those of us who can't live without it, and those just passing through.

You don't put in the longevity to become a dinosaur unless you're the former. :D

[kokanut]

Am I missing something, have I been at MA to long, am I a dinosaur or is it just that I have trained Traditional Chinese Martial Arts to long.

I started martial arts about 46 years ago and am still learning every day. l earned shiatsu about 26 years ago and think that it is one of the best things that I have learned. I still practice TCM "shiatsu", don't quit what you have learned and keep on learming.

[xJOHNx]

Practising forms/kata outside of class without a decent knowledge of the basics can cause some bad habits. And getting rid of a bad habit is a long process. So I rather add the nuance: people who already control the basics and have experience with the system. They should do it every day.
White belts too, but they should read up and look up on their art instead of copying things they don't understand and have a chance of doing badly.

But I try to do something each day, even if it is just mental practice while I'm in the car.

[seasoned]

In this busy environment called reality, time is short. Sometimes classes are geared toward expedience. I feel that class time teaches from the outside in, while alone time gives us the opportunity to realize the feeling of our training, from the inside out. Just a thought. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Could be I'm old and been at this too long

I have found that if you reach a certain age, we actually begin to become younger. Well, maybe in mind only.:shrug:

[Xue Sheng]

As I sit here with my leg up with my knee wrapped in ice I am thinking "Like I should talk" :D

I see this at my sifu’s taiji class all the time people come once a week and ask the same questions and make the same mistakes and you can tell they never to any training outside of that hour they are in class. When I taught I saw the same thing.

I have read post after post after post on various pages that give me the impression that they treat MA training like going to the gym. You go you to the gym 2 or 3 times a week lift weights do some aerobics and you’re done until next time. And I guess if your only goal in MA is to exercise or get a good workout then I guess that is fine but if you goal is to actually be a martial artist I do not see how this will work. I do suppose if you can get to your school 5 to 7 days a week you can but I still feel that you are missing a big part of what MA is and can be if that is the only time you do anything MA.

But then I’m a dinosaur. My very first Sensei (Jujitsu) instilled in all of us the need to train outside of class and I have always been grateful for that (and many other) lesson(s)


It's very much a TCMA thing, however, I agree with you. Even in TJMA they expect you to train outside of class as often as possible. However with the popularization of the arts, you're seeing more and more instructors who seem to not be as pushy about it, thus students who don't do it.

Many don’t anymore for various reasons from they have more students if they do not or in the case of my taiji sifu, after what amounts to about 40 years of teaching he just got tired of trying to get students to train outside of class.



Hey Xue like you I am often amazed that more people do not practice in some form every day. I know personally for myself and the close people I train with it is an every day thing. Constantly on our minds and constantly making the time to train and try to polish that stone and get better. At the core of that is of course constant attention to those basics and trying to keep them sharp and ready to go if needed. Still, throughout the years I have noticed that not everyone has this mind set. I guess we are just the lucky ones! The older dinosaurs!!!

It’s good to be a dinosaur

[Xue Sheng]

Yes you are Old. But so am I.


Well at least I’m in good company



I also find it frustrating to read about there are no clubs near me. Within 1 to 5 miles of their home or to and from work and or school. Those who are serious drive an hour once a week or more and or drive longer to get good training in the art they want.

People want spoon feeding and to just sit through it and get better.

I too am rather frustrated about that very same thing I think for the last 10 years a 1 hour drive was the least amount of time I have driven. I am having a hard time adjusting to my new house being only 15 minutes from just about anyplace I have trained or might train…. I’m not sure I can handle being that close :EG:




Working out alone is critical, and most people think that they can only learn in class. Do your homework and make it your own. If you do so then you will have a better insight into your training and will ask more insightful questions to your instructors and the time spent will be mroe value added as they will be able to address your questions.

Exactly… hey… you’ve done this before haven’t you :D



But if you cannot practice the basics at home by yourself and get that down then the insturctors have to do it in class and this could seem very boring as they always have to go over the basics. "Why can't they just teach me what I want?"


I have been through WAAAAAAAY to many of those classes as I am sure you have too. Basics are great but people really need to work on them outside of class, same with forms but time and time again the same people ask the same questions and have the same problems week after week after week.

My sanda sifu made it perfectly clear that MA training could get boring due to repetition but that I needed to work on everything he showed me every single day. And I actually thought it was great when I would see him the following week and he would tell me I was still no good, go train more. At least I knew he was paying attention. But I am sure I am not telling you about anything you do not already know about.

[jks9199]

Practising forms/kata outside of class without a decent knowledge of the basics can cause some bad habits. And getting rid of a bad habit is a long process. So I rather add the nuance: people who already control the basics and have experience with the system. They should do it every day.
White belts too, but they should read up and look up on their art instead of copying things they don't understand and have a chance of doing badly.

But I try to do something each day, even if it is just mental practice while I'm in the car.
I'd take a different angle; a beginner should spend their solo practice time on what they've been taught. I'm assuming regular and frequent (weekly or more) training time with an instructor, of course. So, if I teach a new student a stance, a punch, and a block their first class -- that's what I want them to practice. I don't want them imitating someone doing an advanced form or something else... stick with the basics they've been taught. After several months, they'll have enough basics and enough experience with them to mix and match.

[xJOHNx]

True, very true!
But how many people still have the patience to actually drill the basics without rushing to the more sofisticated techniques?

[jks9199]

True, very true!
But how many people still have the patience to actually drill the basics without rushing to the more sofisticated techniques?
See, to me, for a beginner to read or look up stuff about an art often invites experimentation and developing bad habits when they read something that they're not ready to understand... I'd just rather they practice what they've been taught in class. At least that way, I know the bad habits they're likely to develop! :D

[Blade96]

As I sit here with my leg up with my knee wrapped in ice I am thinking "Like I should talk" :D

I see this at my sifu’s taiji class all the time people come once a week and ask the same questions and make the same mistakes and you can tell they never to any training outside of that hour they are in class. When I taught I saw the same thing.

I have read post after post after post on various pages that give me the impression that they treat MA training like going to the gym. You go you to the gym 2 or 3 times a week lift weights do some aerobics and you’re done until next time. And I guess if your only goal in MA is to exercise or get a good workout then I guess that is fine but if you goal is to actually be a martial artist I do not see how this will work.

common at my dojo as i said.....dont train much outside of class.


True, very true!
But how many people still have the patience to actually drill the basics without rushing to the more sofisticated techniques?

me :) the other white belts got impatient cause they want to sparr. but for obvious reasons our senseis dont let white belts sparr at competitions. they're impatient to go on to new stuff.....easy to tell that.

when im not feeling well and i dont feel like training on a certain day (like today) I still mentally do the training.

[grydth]

Am I missing something, have I been at MA to long, am I a dinosaur or is it just that I have trained Traditional Chinese Martial Arts to long.

I see a lot of posts about how many times you go to class or how often does your teacher work on that in class or I’m to lazy to get to class to train.

Most of your time training on any thing in TCMA is by yourself you should not need to see your teacher everyday to work on basics, you should do those on your own. And if you can see your teacher everyday that is great but if you can’t you really should be working on what he/she has shown you outside of class as often as possible.

You need to look inside of yourself instead of placing too much importance on what you see on the internet. This background noise will always be present, one has to tune it out.

We have both seen Tai Chi masters flow like water, even into their 80's. I watch the 6th dan at my daughters' goju ryu dojo consistently beat young tough kids off the mark - he is in his 50's. At a seminar three of us attended last week, I was hit 4 times solidly by the teacher and dropped to the ground. My friends could hear the thuds in the back of the room and were wondering what ER to take me to.....but such was his superb skill and control that I was up instantly, unhurt. He had to have been in his late 60's.

One of the bad things about the USA is the general disrespect for age... such is not the case in other places I have visited and lived in. This thought that we become 'oldies' is the result of years of corporate advertising. But the rest of the world knows better in this instance. One can become much wiser while getting older. Part of that wisdom is knowing that most MA practice is done outside of class - that way the teacher can focus on correction, refinement and new material in class.

[geezer]

Xue, I often don't train enough when I'm away from my group. I guess I just get lazy about doing forms over and over... especially forms in which I don't have a deep understanding of the applications. I get the feeling that what I'm doing is unproductive. I'm much more motivated to do paired drills, sparring and chi-sau... especially with someone better. Somehow when I'm getting smacked around a bit, I feel like I'm really learning something ...LOL.

How about you? Your knee permitting, wouldn't you rather be doing push-hands with your instructor and really feeling if you've got it right, as compared to endless reps of forms? ...On the other hand, I admit that in CMA the forms actually cause our bodies to change and develop in ways that enable us to peform our skills when matched with a partner or opponent. So there's no way around it.

[Xue Sheng]

You need to look inside of yourself instead of placing too much importance on what you see on the internet. This background noise will always be present, one has to tune it out.

It is not just the internet though, it is in taiji class, it was in Xingyiquan class, and it was in my old Sifu’s school. I see it in schools I visit form time to time, it is people I talk to off of MT. And it is of course on MT.




We have both seen Tai Chi masters flow like water, even into their 80's. I watch the 6th dan at my daughters' goju ryu dojo consistently beat young tough kids off the mark - he is in his 50's. At a seminar three of us attended last week, I was hit 4 times solidly by the teacher and dropped to the ground. My friends could hear the thuds in the back of the room and were wondering what ER to take me to.....but such was his superb skill and control that I was up instantly, unhurt. He had to have been in his late 60's.

Yup, been there, done that, actually took a mental note of where the nearest ER was… and it was INCREDIBLY cool



One of the bad things about the USA is the general disrespect for age... such is not the case in other places I have visited and lived in. This thought that we become 'oldies' is the result of years of corporate advertising. But the rest of the world knows better in this instance. One can become much wiser while getting older. Part of that wisdom is knowing that most MA practice is done outside of class - that way the teacher can focus on correction, refinement and new material in class.

It is that correction (refinement) that is most of my issue. A teacher can never get to that if he/she must continually correct the same things from the same people class after class after class. I will admit, back when I taught, I came seriously close to talking to two of my students and asking them why they bothered to come at all since they were obviously not working on anything outside of class and one of them was not listening much in class either. Bit I stopped teaching and went to train with my Sifu before I lost the restraint.



Xue, I often don't train enough when I'm away from my group. I guess I just get lazy about doing forms over and over... especially forms in which I don't have a deep understanding of the applications. I get the feeling that what I'm doing is unproductive. I'm much more motivated to do paired drills, sparring and chi-sau... especially with someone better. Somehow when I'm getting smacked around a bit, I feel like I'm really learning something ...LOL.

How about you? Your knee permitting, wouldn't you rather be doing push-hands with your instructor and really feeling if you've got it right, as compared to endless reps of forms? ...On the other hand, I admit that in CMA the forms actually cause our bodies to change and develop in ways that enable us to peform our skills when matched with a partner or opponent. So there's no way around it.

We all get lazy from time to time, but could you do sil lum tao, at home, on your own, without correction form your Sifu and be fairly certain it is correct. Or do you have to constantly go back to your Sifu and ask the same questions about sill um tao over and over again because the only time you do (Or did) sill um tao was in class? And I think I already know the answer to that one geezer, I have no doubt you are competent at Sil lum Tao.

And Hell yeah I would much rather to tuishou than forms but here is the kicker. Without someone training the forms they will never do proper tuishou and to get proficient at tuishou you need multiple partners to work with and if you are constantly teaching every single person you do tuishou with it gets on your nerves. And doing tuishou with my Sifu is absolutely incredible and I learn a lot but when I go to work with someone else I end up right back teaching them again and they have absolutely no interest what-so-ever of doing any tuishou outside of class.

[Balrog]

Most of your time training on any thing in TCMA is by yourself you should not need to see your teacher everyday to work on basics, you should do those on your own. And if you can see your teacher everyday that is great but if you can’t you really should be working on what he/she has shown you outside of class as often as possible.
I sort of agree with that.

Beginners do need the daily contact. But as they get higher in rank, they start to understand the complexities and the roles then shift from teacher/student to mentor/disciple. The students have a firm grasp of basics and concepts, so now the instructor doesn't have to teach them new things as much. They can show the students something new a couple of times and then say, "Now you try it". And the students will then go work on it, learn it, internalize it and present it back to the teacher, who then will make some fine-tuning adjustments.

M. A. training, in a way, is a lot like the old apprenticeship system. Let's say you were a woodcrafter. People liked your stuff and you got a lot of orders. You might take on an apprentice to help. They would start out doing the scutwork, like sweeping the shop and carrying things; the real basics. You would then teach them how to sharpen and maintain the tools and how to read the grains of the various woods; advanced stuff, but still basics. You would then eventually teach them techniques, then let them experiment with simple carvings; again, more advanced basics.

As their skill grew, you might take on a new commission, then tell them what you wanted and let them do the majority of the work with you occasionally looking over their shoulder. At this point, they would be considered a journeyman. This would be similar, in a way, to their testing for Black Belt - they gotta show it all to the judges and it's got to be good. But they continue to learn and grow and advance in their craft.

Eventually, they would begin to work on one special piece which would really show their skills and when that piece was finished, they would be acknowledged as a master craftsman (it was their masterpiece, which is where the term comes from). And this is similar to training and testings in the advanced degrees of Black Belt until you are acknowledged as a Master Instructor.