on pukulan....

[krys]

Hormat

I just have a question on the so called Pukulan
styles.

I heard some peoples in the West say that there exists some Pukulan silat styles mostly based on heavy strikes to the limbs or striking into the coming attack....

Back in Asia the two GM I train(ed) with explained me that Pukulan just means the way to punch...

So I wonder, are the Pukulan silat styles just made up by some foreigners? Is Pukulan another martial art, different from Silat?

I do not mean any disrespect,

Salamat.

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by krys
Hormat

I just have a question on the so called Pukulan
styles.

I heard some peoples in the West say that there exists some Pukulan silat styles mostly based on heavy strikes to the limbs or striking into the coming attack....

Back in Asia the two GM I train(ed) with explained me that Pukulan just means the way to punch...

So I wonder, are the Pukulan silat styles just made up by some foreigners? Is Pukulan another martial art, different from Silat?

I do not mean any disrespect,

Salamat.

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.


The way that I've heard it explained is simply that "pukul" = "punch" ... "pukulan" = "science of punching; method of punching" (just as your GMs have explained).

The "pukulan" systems that I'm familiar with simply use the term "pukulan" as a descriptor to indicate that they use a lot of striking.

I'm not sure if I answered your question or not. The people that I've heard using the term "pukulan" are Dutch or Dutch-Indonesian. As I understand it, the term "pukul" was originally a Dutch word ("poekoel") ... so it stands to reason that the Dutch and Dutch-Indonesians would use it as a descriptive term for systems that use a lot of striking.

Mike

[Seigi]

From what Silat i have trained in & from my instructors knowledge,
The term Pukulan can be found in the Pencak Silat taught by Pendekar William Sanders, Full name Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.

Pukulan = Hitting, Cimande = Flowing, Pusaka = Rare or Old.

So one translation is that his Style of Silat is: Continuous or Flowing strikes & contains old or Rare techniques of Indonesia.

Checkm out their website at www.Cimande.com


Hope this helps.

Peace & Harmony Always
Enoch

[krys]

Seigi, pesilat,
what kind of conditioning do you practice in your pukulan training?

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by krys
Seigi, pesilat,
what kind of conditioning do you practice in your pukulan training?

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

Part of the Silat that I do is from Cimande as taught in Mande Muda by Pak Herman Suwanda (RIP). There are some traditional conditioning methods (involving sugar cane beatings and such) that I'm aware of but wasn't subjected to. The primary conditioning we did came from the jurus which are all 2 man jurus. The first 5 jurus really focus on the conditioning of the forearms. My forearms are pretty well conditioned (though pale in comparison to my instructor's forearms - he went through a lot more rigorous conditioning while training in Indonesia with Pak Herman). That's the only conditioning that I've formally worked on. My shins are reasonably well conditioned, but not from any concerted effort ... just from years of bashing shins with other people in sparring and training.

Mike

[krys]

I used to do a lot of body conditioning while learning indonesian setia-hati-terare silat, this was done in coordination with breathing techniques. There were also a mental conditioning forms (also using breathing- hitting some parts of the body) to developp agressivity-power and to ignore pain.....



I just wonder if you guys use some special ointment-lotion for your conditioning.....
Somebody I trust on the matter told me that there is some really amazing chinese lotions used by people training the Iron Palm...

If you have knowledge of some ointments and you want to share i would be interested
to hear more about it.


By the way the Indochinese threads are not really active.....:confused:

Thanks,
Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by krys
I just wonder if you guys use some special ointment-lotion for your conditioning.....
Somebody I trust on the matter told me that there is some really amazing chinese lotions used by people training the Iron Palm...

In Cimande Silat, they traditionally use an liniment called "balur." My instructor has some that he got while he was in Indonesia. I don't know where to get any, though, or what's in it.

The Chinese liniment to which you're referring is dit da jao. I have some that one of my instructors gave me. I don't have a recipe for jao, but I know they can be found.

There are some recipes on the internet and, I think, a lot of Chinese herb shops sell kits with all the herbs and such in it with directions for making it.

Run a search on google.com for "dit da jao" ... don't know how authentic any of them are, but they might be worth looking at :)

Mike

[krys]

Thanks Mike,

Yes the ointment I was referring is dit da jao, I just could not remember the name although I didn't know it was so famous....


Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[Seigi]

I have also used this ointment alot.

The main type of conditioning our instructor has us do is, strike each othe with fists, palms, feet, shins, elbows, knees, etc... at different targets with different degrees of force, To assist in giving & receiving strikes.

& yes this thread is not very active.

Peace

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Seigi
The main type of conditioning our instructor has us do is, strike each othe with fists, palms, feet, shins, elbows, knees, etc... at different targets with different degrees of force, To assist in giving & receiving strikes.


What are the targets of these strikes?

[Trent]

Interesting,

My instructor(s) have stated that pukulan is equivalant to "to collide" not necessarily "punch." I believe that the westerners who have learned to call some silat and kuntao arts "Pukulan" do so mainly because of the teacher's background, the language barrier and cultural differences.

Here in the west is we are used to the "spoon fed approach" or the the anal retentive, but much easier to digest, tendency to standardize everything to the smallest detail. Many southeastern asian arts simply do not do that. Much of what a guru does may not even have a formal name (as in kenpo and karate), the instructor tells you we are doing "xxxxxx" and their local dialect gives it a name for reference. Someone else may call it something else.

All of this has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the system or principles of motion involved, nor does it speak to the validity of the system and the teacher.

Oh, and the targets of those shins, knees, elbows, palms, punchs, feet, shoulders, head, hips depend upon what you're training or drilling and the level of the student. :)

[OULobo]

Originally posted by Trent
Interesting,

My instructor(s) have stated that pukulan is equivalant to "to collide" not necessarily "punch."

I heard it meant crashing bodies or colliding objects. I had always thought that this system would be a lot like Pak Suwanda's Cimande, but of the styles of Pukulan I have seen they didn't really emphasize hard striking although some had an lot of fast whip-like strikes.

I think that the Indo systems generally lack the structure that you find in many other arts. They seem to be peicemeal because there is so much crosspollination from other villages/arts/cultures. Obviously this makes them no less effective.

[bustr]

Pukulan = Pugilism

It's just a pronunciation. The Pukulan I've seen looks just like 19th century Western bare knuckle boxing with some low kicks. My guess is that the term Pukulan indicates a Dutch/Indo strain.

[Trent]

While there are certainly some, no many, similarities to classic bare knuckle boxing and pukulan, if they looked just alike except for some low kicks I would say that there were some things definitely missing.

I've done both extensively, and bare knuckle boxing is very sophisticated, no doubt, but the approach, method and mindset is decidedly different than a pukulan based art.

Like a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Pugilism could be considered an aspect of pukulan, but pukulan is not pugilism. There are more defining qualities to squares and pukulan.

[unterlich]

hahhaa pukulan is not a style

if u hit something with ur hand it's called pukulan !!!
its from the
verb pukul=hit and imbuhan -an so pukulan= the noun form of pukul/hit

thank you
terima kasih yaaa

[OULobo]

hahhaa pukulan is not a style

if u hit something with ur hand it's called pukulan !!!
its from the
verb pukul=hit and imbuhan -an so pukulan= the noun form of pukul/hit

thank you
terima kasih yaaa

Not necessarily. That would be like saying that Boxing is not a style. The word describes a verb and the specific noun also.

[unterlich]

uhm boxing is a modern style from the word box that i dont really know what that mean :(

when u say pukulan in indonesia, people here wont recognized it as a fighting style,
the culture here never make pukulan as fighting style.
Its just a regular activity.

[Trent]

uhm boxing is a modern style from the word box that i dont really know what that mean :(

when u say pukulan in indonesia, people here wont recognized it as a fighting style,
the culture here never make pukulan as fighting style.
Its just a regular activity.

And since what is done in Indonesia not a "regular activity" for the United States, we call it pukulan. If two boys are tussling in the playground for fun we would probably call it wrestling. But it is a regular activity.

Further, "Ninpo" is a method or way of endurance. I think there is nothing wrong with it, but some would think it odd.

Why are you bringing this up and implying it's a problem?

[unterlich]

And since what is done in Indonesia not a "regular activity" for the United States, we call it pukulan. If two boys are tussling in the playground for fun we would probably call it wrestling. But it is a regular activity.

Further, "Ninpo" is a method or way of endurance. I think there is nothing wrong with it, but some would think it odd.

Why are you bringing this up and implying it's a problem?

oh im sorry then

[wadokai_indo]

And since what is done in Indonesia not a "regular activity" for the United States, we call it pukulan. If two boys are tussling in the playground for fun we would probably call it wrestling. But it is a regular activity.

Further, "Ninpo" is a method or way of endurance. I think there is nothing wrong with it, but some would think it odd.

Why are you bringing this up and implying it's a problem?
Please pardon my friend Unterlich. In Indonesia, we speak Indonesian, and referring to a fighting style as "Pukulan" will be a bit confusing for the natives here. For example, if you talk to an Indonesian Karateka that you study Pukulan, then he will say "Great, I study Pukulan too, my art of Karate contains many Pukulan".. or something like that. Because Pukulan simply means Punching, a generic technique found in almost all martial arts styles.

But off course, outside Indonesia, it is fair enough to refer to a Silat style as Pukulan. You just have to be more specific if you are in Indonesia. That's basically it.

[unterlich]

eh boss, ane kan cuma asal cakap aje nih boss, biar die die pada bingung. ehh kaga taunye pada ngeyel, trus ane males nih boss ngejelasin lagi ke die die ini bro.

[unterlich]

hehe bier diterjemahke nganggo google yo ra iso ketemu kie artine, bahasa campur adukk

[Trent]

Please pardon my friend Unterlich. In Indonesia, we speak Indonesian, and referring to a fighting style as "Pukulan" will be a bit confusing for the natives here. For example, if you talk to an Indonesian Karateka that you study Pukulan, then he will say "Great, I study Pukulan too, my art of Karate contains many Pukulan".. or something like that. Because Pukulan simply means Punching, a generic technique found in almost all martial arts styles.

But off course, outside Indonesia, it is fair enough to refer to a Silat style as Pukulan. You just have to be more specific if you are in Indonesia. That's basically it.

And the Indonesian teachers from Java I studied from spoke pretty good Indonesian, too.

I don't believe anyone was referring to a style as Pukulan, but a manner of striking in Indonesia; therefore, someone outside of Indonesia would ask, "What are you doing?" And the persilat would reply, "Pukulan." Then they would both be happy. To someone from Indonesia there is nothing peculiar about the manner of striking they do. To everyone else there is and they label it as referred to by the Indonesian.

You reported that any old punch is pukulan in Indonesia. My gurus use the term to make a distinct difference from an Indonesian punch from any other type of punch. A guru from Indonesia when teaching westerners must be able to communicate effectively to western students and apply terms that can get across ideas. I've studied several other arts to proficiency and the Indonesian methods are distinctly different. We use terms to acknowledge the difference and help others learn the concepts.

I think we are both correct but looking at it from different cultural perspectives.

Oh, and posting another language to speek discreetly to someone else on an open forum when the language the forum is created in is known is rude. An e-mail or private message would be appropriate. It is also fruitless for many reasons.

Thanks for joining in.

[unterlich]

hmm still on pukulan ck ck ck
well here's what i've got from the dictionary that pukulan is a general form any strike using hand like boxing, slapping, and hitting, or in japanese is all form of shutoken, chinken, shikanken, shakoken, uraken, and *ken. so it's up to u which one would u like to trust

my recomendation is go with ur teacher and stay cool that's it !!!

sorry for the inconvinience

[Silat Student]

Sitting here at the outside of that little discussion it just seemed like a misunderstanding to me. "Where cultures meet allowances should be made for differences in upbringing and language". Glad to see that solved in an adult way (been on too many forums where something like that would degenerate). It's good to have some natives around here.

[wadokai_indo]

I think we are both correct but looking at it from different cultural perspectives.

Oh, and posting another language to speek discreetly to someone else on an open forum when the language the forum is created in is known is rude. An e-mail or private message would be appropriate. It is also fruitless for many reasons.

Thanks for joining in.
Ahh... that's it Trent, now we have come into an agreement :D that's what I meant :D glad to know that we understand each other..

Unterlich, please PM me when you have a sudden urge to write something in our languange... don't post it on the open forum, ok?

[wadokai_indo]

It's good to have some natives around here.
Yes, and it's great to know that we're accepted ;)

[pekho]

Hi-

I study white crane silat and our origins are in the Indonesian Chinese community. The arts of that community are called kundao. Kundao means "way of the fist", pukilan may be a reference to the kundao influence in their art. The other part of their name is a regional art "cimandi".

Josh

[GuruJim1]

As a 30 year veteran of Indonesia, and Filipino martial arts I'll share what I was taught about the term Pukulan. Before WWII the old spelling of Pukulan was "Poekoelan" which is still use by many of Wetzel Silat people. Pukulan means to Hit, Strike, or collide. After the fall of the Dutch rule they changed the spellings and the national language "Bahsa". There is over 250 languages in Indonesia. Pukulan is a Eastern Java term. In Western Java they call it Pentjak. Some of the other terms used is Silat, Pentjak-Silat, Sila, or Pencak-Silat.
Whatever term you use, it mean the same as saying Karate, or Kung Fu. But what type of Karate, or Kung Fu. This why the Wetzel Silat says Poekoelan Tjiminde. Pukulan arts are Serak (Decoy), Tiji Monjet (Ape), Petjut (Whiplash), and Kilap (Thunder Style). Tjiminde was developed by Embah Kahir (1760), but there was a Pak Kahir in the 1300's that had a style call Tjiminde before Embah.

Tjiminde, or Cimande means, "Flowing Water". The strikes are in a flowing, quick, and rapid strikes to the arms, legs, and body. Tjiminde strike to pressure point in the arms, and legs to make them useless then follow-up to strike to the body, and using a takedown or throwing technique. Attackers will be thrown, or collapse due to the flowing strikes. However, just because the attacker on the ground doesn't mean the fight is over. This just a little of history of this the art. I hope this as helped your understanding of Pukulan. I am constructing a MSN group with the full histories of my art Pukulan Tjiminde Malay Pentjak-Silat. Check it out...

http://groups.msn.com/PukulanTjimindeMalay/_whatsnew.msnw

[bustr]

GuruJim

What do you know about the origins and history of Raja Hati?

[GuruJim1]

Raja Hati is the Royal Bodyguard style. Raja means Royal, and Hati is style. It was developed to quickly dominate a fight. It is a system of knee and elbow shielding techniques. The system leave very little of your body open to attack. Raja Hati is a system that can be taught quickly to anyone. However, people with limited knowledge of this art will only use it as a defensive art only. Using the elbow and knee shields to defend against punches and kicks. Raja Hati is an effective offensive art, in word to move into an attacker spearing them, and over taking them with knee and elbow strikes. The system look more defensive, but I feel that the decoying part of this system. Raja Hati can disable arms and legs temporary, or even break them. Raja Hati is a Pukulan art like Serak, Putjet, and Tjiminde. Raja Hati developed to fight of bandits, assassins, multiple attackers & weapons. I hope this give you some insight of what Raja Hati is.

http://groups.msn.com/PukulanTjimindeMalay/_whatsnew.msnw

[bustr]

Thanks Guru Jim

Do you know if the style is related to Adimura? I was told it came to Indonesia by way of travelling Hindu Royalty fron India. But, there is very little information out there. My curiousity stems from the fact that it was part of my instructors curriculum. Unfortunately he wasn't really interested in MA history.

[silat]

Thanks Guru Jim

Do you know if the style is related to Adimura? I was told it came to Indonesia by way of travelling Hindu Royalty fron India. But, there is very little information out there. My curiousity stems from the fact that it was part of my instructors curriculum. Unfortunately he wasn't really interested in MA history.
Bustr,

I don't know if it's related to Adimura but it is related to Setia Hati (Serene Heart) and I believe either one was formed from the other or they both came from the same parent company.

There are a lot of similarities and both styles are very effective.


Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=GuruJim1]As a 30 year veteran of Indonesia, and Filipino martial arts I'll share what I was taught about the term Pukulan. Before WWII the old spelling of Pukulan was "Poekoelan" which is still use by many of Wetzel Silat people. Pukulan means to Hit, Strike, or collide. After the fall of the Dutch rule they changed the spellings and the national language "Bahsa". There is over 250 languages in Indonesia. Pukulan is a Eastern Java term. In Western Java they call it Pentjak. Some of the other terms used is Silat, Pentjak-Silat, Sila, or Pencak-Silat. Whatever term you use, it mean the same as saying Karate, or Kung Fu. But what type of Karate, or Kung Fu. This why the Wetzel Silat says Poekoelan Tjiminde. Pukulan arts are Serak (Decoy), Tiji Monjet (Ape), Petjut (Whiplash), and Kilap (Thunder Style). Tjiminde was developed by Embah Kahir (1760), but there was a Pak Kahir in the 1300's that had a style call Tjiminde before Embah. Tjiminde, or Cimande means, "Flowing Water".

Some comments: Pukulan is an Indonesian word from Malay, not from East Jawa where they speak Jawanese. Jawanese has many diferent ways of saying hit, strike, punch, like antem, tonyo, keplak, kampleng, and so on, but not pukul. Pukul is Indonesian from Malay. Pukulan means the punch, the hit. Memukul means to punch. Dipukul means got punched. The Dutch spelling used oe instead of u but the sound is the same as oo in look. All Indonesian words spealt with Dutch spelling are not used anymore in Indonesia, so dj is j, tj is c, oe is u, and j is y.

Pencak, on the other hand is a Jawanese word and not originally used by the Sunda people of West Jawa to name their fighting art. In the past (before nationalisation of the arts) the Sunda people of West Jawa called their arts maenpo or tari kolot, meaning play punch or old dance.

In Sundanese, the word Ci means river. Cimande means the river (that goes through) the village of smiths (pande- smith, mande-to work as a smith)... The stories and legends about Embah (Grandpa) Kahir and the originators of Cimande are legends. Indonesian arts untill very recently were not very concerned with authorship. I suspect that this character Mbah Kahir and the years 17so on and 13 so on are an attempt by a Western mind to create some history.

Serak means scatter, Kilap means unintentional mistake, Kilat means Lightning, Pecut means whip (not whiplash- an injury), sila means to sit cross-legged on the floor, and in Indonesia there has never ever been a style called Cimindie. The national language of Indonesia is bahasa Indonesia, just like the national language of the USA is bahasa Inggris. Bahasa means language not our language.

People born of Dutch fathers during the end of the Dutch colonialism lived in an Indo-culture which was neither Indonesian nor Dutch, although during the Dutch colonial period the Dutch culture (father) would always be the dominant one. During this period there were no Dutch women giving birth to children fathered by an Indonesian. As a group the half-caste Dutch-Indonesians dissapeared after Indonesia's independence because all the Dutch-Indos who had survived the WWII chose to go back to Holland. If you read Pramoedya Ananta Toer's Buru tetralogy you will have a good understanding of the Indo culture and their position in Indonesian society. Generally the Indo-Dutch wanted Indonesia under Dutch rule and fought against Indonesians.

Just for the record, Indonesia proclaimed Independence from the Japanese on August 17 1945, after Sukarno learned of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Indonesian men and women then fought the Japanese (who would not surrender weapons) the British (who began bombing Surabaya in November 1945 because their Brigadier General Mallaby was killed by a daredevil fighter with a grenade) and the Dutch, who attacked three times, in 1945, 47 and 49. In December 1949 Holland recognised Indonesia's independence. Since then Holland has many sweet memories of Indonesia, but Indonesia has still to cope with problems created by the Dutch, for example the race relations between the Chinese and the indigenous people.

Hormat,
Kiai Carita.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Fascinating post! Certainly that dispells many mispronounciations that many people have propogated! However, it does not take away that they are practicing an Indonesian based art just that their teacher may have chosen a name based on his/her experience. Thanks for the brief history lesson!

Brian R. VanCise

[Garuda]

Pukulan is not Pencak Silat.

Pukulan was conceived in urban areas (pukulan betawi, pukulan kemayoran, pukulan surabaya, etc.) in Indonesia during the Dutch time by Dutch and Indo youngsters. In these days just like nowadays youth from one neighbourhood would fight with another one. These youngsters also heard that there were masters (of pencak silat) that were very skilled in martial arts. These youngsters were relatively wealthy and offered these masters money to teach them only the effective part of their art (self defense). They did not care for the rest like the mental spiritual, the music, the kembangan, etc. These excercises they called pukulan.

Later when Indonesia became independent many Dutch and Indo's went to the Netherlands and they brought with them pukulan and some others brought with them pencak silat (but that is another story). And that is why pukulan is practically none existent in Indonesia, but outside Indonesia (mainly the Netherlands) pukulan does exist.

You might ask why is pukulan not pencak silat. Pencak silat is a very diverse MA, but a certain moment in time (I think it was 1948) a few grand masters discussed what made pencak silat, pencak silat. And they came at first to 3 aspects and these aspects were the mental spiritual aspect, the cultural/artistic aspect (seni) and self defense (bela diri). Later in 1973 a fourth aspect was added the sports aspect (olah raga). Since real pukulan lacks the mental spiritual and the cultural aspect you can say that pukulan is not pencak silat.

However what you see also is that some people that practise pukulan are nowadays adding the aspects of the pencak silat that were lacking by integrating kembangan, etc.

Another thing, if the pukulan players that were/are very famous nowadays, then you should ask yourself how good their pencak silat masters must have been.

Garuda...

[Garuda]

Sorry I could not edit the last sentence of my post, so see below the correction:

Another thing, if the pukulan players that were/are very famous nowadays are/were so highly skilled, then you should ask yourself how good their pencak silat masters must have been.

Garuda...

[Mas Nick G]

I can't claim to know anything about Indonesian culture or linguistics. All I know about this comes from my teachers in Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen. What we say in this particular art is that Poekoelan means "a series of blows with returning hands and feet", and refers to the multi-striking and whip-style striking of the art. This is only one interpretaton of many, and I don't claim to be necessarily correct. I hear from my teachers that in Indonesia, you might travel from one village to another and hear something called a completely different word than the same thing back home. Then, you could go to the next village and hear it called something else again. The same with the next ten villages. And by the time you got back to where you started, the original word you learned in the first place would probably have changed! What'cha gonna do?

[orang_baik]

From what Silat i have trained in & from my instructors knowledge,
The term Pukulan can be found in the Pencak Silat taught by Pendekar William Sanders, Full name Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.

Pukulan = Hitting, Cimande = Flowing, Pusaka = Rare or Old.

So one translation is that his Style of Silat is: Continuous or Flowing strikes & contains old or Rare techniques of Indonesia.

Checkm out their website at www.Cimande.com


Hope this helps.

Peace & Harmony Always
Enoch



hmm indonesian is my mother tounge language

pukulan, tonjong, jotos, bogem = hitting, punch
tinju = boxing

cimande is a name of famous village in west java

while pusaka is old/rare but it is only use for thing that is holy, respectful, honored

[orang_baik]

I can't claim to know anything about Indonesian culture or linguistics. All I know about this comes from my teachers in Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen. What we say in this particular art is that Poekoelan means "a series of blows with returning hands and feet", and refers to the multi-striking and whip-style striking of the art. This is only one interpretaton of many, and I don't claim to be necessarily correct. I hear from my teachers that in Indonesia, you might travel from one village to another and hear something called a completely different word than the same thing back home. Then, you could go to the next village and hear it called something else again. The same with the next ten villages. And by the time you got back to where you started, the original word you learned in the first place would probably have changed! What'cha gonna do?

hello, actually poekoelan is same as pukulan

pukulan = single punch
pukulan pukulan = multiple punch

poekoelan is the old way of writing, inherited from Dutch writing style


the new style / ejaan yang disempurnakan/ EYD is pukulan

here is the dictionary

oe = u
tj = c
j = y
ie = i


what you said about different word in each village do exist, but our government has already give standard for that, so dont worry, no blurry word actually still exist :D