Ph.D. program!?

[dbell]

I am a strong user of LinkedIn, which is a business "network" of connections. (It has actually helped build my non-martial arts businesses in the past.

I had a person connect with me today that had Dr. attached to his name, and his business history was martial arts related or security (retail) related. So, I went to his profile to see what was there. He had a Ph.D. in University of Asian "Martial Arts Studies".

In tracking that down, as it sounded interesting to me, I found this site http://www.usnmat.net/UOAMAS.htm (I searched here, and found nothing on it, so I'm posting now.) In order to move forward with their program, you must be nominated to be a Inductee in their Hall of Fame, then you can proceed forward with writing a small (apparently) paper for review and "diploma".

I have two Ph.Ds. One in Business Administration, and one in Computer Science from the University of Texas, SA. These two degrees took time, a long dissertation process and a successful defense of the dissertation. It appears here they just read over your "life history" (for the most part, the list of "graduates" consists of a document that is from 20 to 80 pages long that is reviewed and approved (or disapproved)).

What is your take on this process?

[Xue Sheng]

Well other than I can't find and address for the "University" and I doubt any possibility of accreditation so academically it is likely meaning less all I can say is ehh whatever

Xue Sheng Ph.D - from Xuefu Universal University of Xuefu

[Bester]

I delete that spam all the time. Not worth the paper it's not printed on.

[seasoned]

First of all congratulations on your accomplishments in life. Secondly, it seems in life there is a path emerging that implies there is an easier way then the prescribed way to achieve. Sadly, if the roots get deeper, it will hasten the spiraling down that appears to be happening.

[dbell]

First of all congratulations on your accomplishments in life. Secondly, it seems in life there is a path emerging that implies there is an easier way then the prescribed way to achieve. Sadly, if the roots get deeper, it will hasten the spiraling down that appears to be happening.

Thank you! (I didn't post about my Ph.D.s other than to say I know the process as it "was"...)

I would have to agree, and the roots are not all that deep, but the spiral down sure seems to be deep!

[terryl965]

Sound like nothing, I can give you a PH. D in ******** http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Brandon Fisher]

Having academic Ph.D's you will understand when I say this. If a legit university is not backing it then I am very skeptical of it. There some groups who claim they have backing from a university but recipients don't have any classroom or course work for the most part. Let's see why people would think it’s a fraud.

As far as names on the list I recognize a few but some of those few throw all sorts of red flags for me.

If there truly was a legitimate academic program on the martial arts I would pursue it but I have yet to find such a thing.

[dbell]

If there truly was a legitimate academic program on the martial arts I would pursue it but I have yet to find such a thing.

If you do find one, please let me know!! I'd be interested as well!!

[ap Oweyn]

Out of curiosity, what's the appeal of an academic program on martial arts? I mean, there's nothing stopping you from doing the research now, if that's the appeal. It's not like there are exclusive research libraries you can only access with an academic "in." And you don't need academic credentials to get a job 1) teaching or 2) fighting. So where's the advantage?

I know Radford University, in Virginia, has degree programs for martial arts. And the idea was appealing in my late teens (when I had my self-identity neatly tied up in this stuff). But I would feel that someone had really squandered a university education if they came out with a degree in martial arts.


Stuart

[Ken Morgan]

If there truly was a legitimate academic program on the martial arts I would pursue it but I have yet to find such a thing.

It would probably be as part of a Phys Ed program, no? Get a Phd in Phys Ed, with your dissertation MA related.

All these places that "give" away undergrad and graduate degrees can devalue the real ones. When I use to be involved in hiring at my last last place of business, I would always google schools I had never heard of before or sound "odd".

[dbell]

Out of curiosity, what's the appeal of an academic program on martial arts? I mean, there's nothing stopping you from doing the research now, if that's the appeal. It's not like there are exclusive research libraries you can only access with an academic "in." And you don't need academic credentials to get a job 1) teaching or 2) fighting. So where's the advantage?

I know Radford University, in Virginia, has degree programs for martial arts. And the idea was appealing in my late teens (when I had my self-identity neatly tied up in this stuff). But I would feel that someone had really squandered a university education if they came out with a degree in martial arts.


Stuart

While I don't care about the paper Ph.D. aspect of it, or the Dr. in front of my name, I would be interested in the criteria behind the degree (my two Ph.D.s have actually hurt me in the job area, as it scares people away, thinking I want too much money, or that I am too academic, I don't need a third Ph.D. in anything, just the knowledge...). The information that would be part of the curriculum making the degree is what intrigues me.

[Carol]

Unaccredited PhD programs and degree programs for "life experience" are all over the place.

Only thing they really do is make the HR departments work harder to determine if a candidare has a degree from an accredited school.

[blindsage]

It would probably be as part of a Phys Ed program, no? Get a Phd in Phys Ed, with your dissertation MA related.

Or a history department, or anthropology, or exercise physiology (actually I know of someone who has done this and written academically about Taijiquan), or a number of other fields. Academics choose their specialties, you can go into whatever relevant field you want and choose an area of MA as your specific research field (MA in general is waaay to broad, but Indonesian martial arts, or Japanese koryu, or western historical fencing are not far fetched), nothing's stopping you.

[blindsage]

Mark V. Wiley (http://www.amazon.com/Mark-V.-Wiley/e/B000APA4HY/ref=sr_tc_img_2) has researched, and trained in a number of Phillipine styles and has written a number of books on their methods and history without a relevant degree.

Don F. Draeger (http://www.amazon.com/Donn-F.-Draeger/e/B001KIJ8EK/ref=sr_tc_2_0) spent his life studying, training in, and writing about Japanese martial arts without a relevant degree and founded a field of study related to it, hoplology.

J. Lowell Lewis is a PhD (from the University of Washington) in Anthropology and Performance Studies and wrote the book 'Ring of Liberation' (http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Liberation-Deceptive-Discourse-Brazilian/dp/0226476839), an antropological study of Capoeira.

Phillip Zarilli is a stage director and theater instructor that has studied and taught Kalaripayyatu extensively and wrote the book 'When The Body Becomes All Eyes' (http://www.amazon.com/When-Body-Becomes-Eyes-Kalarippayattu/dp/0195655389/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263497576&sr=1-1), a studied of Kalaripayyatu theory and practice.

You don't need a graduate degree in MA to do the relevant work.

[Xue Sheng]

You don't need a graduate degree in MA to do the relevant work.

Yes you do... and for $400 I will grant a PhD from Xuefu Universal University of Xuefu on the Toilet paper of your choice... it will look real official and everything... for $1000 I will give you one on cardboard with custom calligraphy :D

[Ken Morgan]

Yes you do... and for $400 I will grant a PhD from Xuefu Universal University of Xuefu on the Toilet paper of your choice... it will look real official and everything... for $1000 I will give you one on cardboard with custom calligraphy :D

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Real or imitation cardboard?

[Xue Sheng]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Real or imitation cardboard?

Why real of course...I use only the finest brown shipping boxes to cut my Diplomas from :D

[Grenadier]

Official, university-issued martial arts degrees? I wouldn't put much faith in such things.

I understand, and support, the use of titles in a dojo that confer the system's equivalence of an advanced degree, such as using Renshi, Kyoshi, or Hanshi, since the requirements of such are style specific. For that matter, each school is free to choose its own, as long as they recognize that the "knowledge" title is valid in their own system, nowhere else.

Others from different systems may choose to call the holder of such a title as such, but that's entirely up to them.

[Brandon Fisher]

If you do find one, please let me know!! I'd be interested as well!!
Will do

[ap Oweyn]

While I don't care about the paper Ph.D. aspect of it, or the Dr. in front of my name, I would be interested in the criteria behind the degree (my two Ph.D.s have actually hurt me in the job area, as it scares people away, thinking I want too much money, or that I am too academic, I don't need a third Ph.D. in anything, just the knowledge...). The information that would be part of the curriculum making the degree is what intrigues me.

I didn't think you were. After all, you already rightly have "Dr." in front of your name. If you're so inclined. But it still seems to me that you already have access to the information that would make up the curriculum. As is likely the case with many degree programs. I could have read The Grapes of Wrath without getting an English degree too.

To my mind, I'd have to be thoroughly convinced that the classroom experience with a particular teacher or set of teachers was going to be so powerful as to make it worth doing. And, in an academic classroom, I'm having a hard time imagining that.

But to each his own. Not trying to talk you out of it. Doubt there was much danger of that, even if I were. :)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Mark V. Wiley (http://www.amazon.com/Mark-V.-Wiley/e/B000APA4HY/ref=sr_tc_img_2) has researched, and trained in a number of Phillipine styles and has written a number of books on their methods and history without a relevant degree.

Don F. Draeger (http://www.amazon.com/Donn-F.-Draeger/e/B001KIJ8EK/ref=sr_tc_2_0) spent his life studying, training in, and writing about Japanese martial arts without a relevant degree and founded a field of study related to it, hoplology.

J. Lowell Lewis is a PhD (from the University of Washington) in Anthropology and Performance Studies and wrote the book 'Ring of Liberation' (http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Liberation-Deceptive-Discourse-Brazilian/dp/0226476839), an antropological study of Capoeira.

Phillip Zarilli is a stage director and theater instructor that has studied and taught Kalaripayyatu extensively and wrote the book 'When The Body Becomes All Eyes' (http://www.amazon.com/When-Body-Becomes-Eyes-Kalarippayattu/dp/0195655389/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263497576&sr=1-1), a studied of Kalaripayyatu theory and practice.

You don't need a graduate degree in MA to do the relevant work.


Because of Draeger, you actually could get a degree in Hopology from the U of Hawaii and some U in Japan for a few years.

[dbell]

I didn't think you were. After all, you already rightly have "Dr." in front of your name. If you're so inclined. But it still seems to me that you already have access to the information that would make up the curriculum. As is likely the case with many degree programs. I could have read The Grapes of Wrath without getting an English degree too.

To my mind, I'd have to be thoroughly convinced that the classroom experience with a particular teacher or set of teachers was going to be so powerful as to make it worth doing. And, in an academic classroom, I'm having a hard time imagining that.

But to each his own. Not trying to talk you out of it. Doubt there was much danger of that, even if I were. :)

I guess what I should have said is, I would like to see what their requirements would be for the degree, what their classes would be like (would they be teaching their DC (Doctoral Candidates) a martial art), how long would the program take, what would be the requirements of the dissertation, WHO would be on the dissertation challenge board (martial artist, Phys Ed Ph.D.s?), etc...?

I've been studying and practicing Judo for 40+ years, Kendo and Aikido for 38+ years, TSD and Hapkido for over 25+ years, and a few other arts (or parts of arts, such as specific weapons, etc) for over 20 or more years. How would that play into a Ph.D. program if one was created at an university?

I guess I am too academic... I love going to school...

[Carol]

It sounds like your LinkedIn contact would have first-hand experience regarding that, yes?

[dbell]

It sounds like your LinkedIn contact would have first-hand experience regarding that, yes?

He does, and I have started contact there, but in looking at the site that gave him the "Ph.D." and reading their listed requirements (Become a Hall of Fame inductey, submit a dissertation (they ranged from 20 pages to 80 pages on average, with a few in a couple hundred pages) and have that dissertation approved by their Board. They are supposedly trying to get accredited, but I have also talked to "Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges" who has said they probably would not accredit this group because they post Ph.D.s which they only accredit up to Masters, and that there appeared to be no set curriculum, and the "North Central Association of Colleges and Schools", which would cover schools HQed in Indiana or Ohio, where this group appears to be centered in, which also says they would probably not accredit this group for what appears to be a lack of a solid curriculum. (That was based on their review of the web site. They have not been petitioned for pre-accreditation or review to either group near as they were able to tell.)

My question to the group here was more, "What is your take on the whole Ph.D. in MA?".

[jks9199]

He does, and I have started contact there, but in looking at the site that gave him the "Ph.D." and reading their listed requirements (Become a Hall of Fame inductey, submit a dissertation (they ranged from 20 pages to 80 pages on average, with a few in a couple hundred pages) and have that dissertation approved by their Board. They are supposedly trying to get accredited, but I have also talked to "Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges" who has said they probably would not accredit this group because they post Ph.D.s which they only accredit up to Masters, and that there appeared to be no set curriculum, and the "North Central Association of Colleges and Schools", which would cover schools HQed in Indiana or Ohio, where this group appears to be centered in, which also says they would probably not accredit this group for what appears to be a lack of a solid curriculum. (That was based on their review of the web site. They have not been petitioned for pre-accreditation or review to either group near as they were able to tell.)

My question to the group here was more, "What is your take on the whole Ph.D. in MA?".
Don't forget maintain membership in the "Alliance."

An advanced degree in any sort of martial arts is possible, I guess. But probably as a specialization under something like kinesiology or physical education or maybe (depending on the art and kind of a reach) philosophy. To me, it would have to be more interdisciplinary study in the methods of instruction and training, for example, with supporting studies like anatomy & physiology, and the martial art portion be more of a practicum or experiential learning requirement than a specific study in the field. In other words, it shouldn't matter whether it's TKD or aikido or some other art. Probably not a self-invented/self-founded style, unless there's extensive background to support it...

[dbell]

Update about LinkedIn Contact:

So, I asked the guy if I could get a copy of his dissertation, and was immediately challenged with "No one has ever wanted that, including State Farm (no clue why he said State Farm), why do you want it, are you wanting to support my school?" He then demanded to know what National and International organizations supported my MA ranks. My request for a copy of his dissertation, which was named after the style system he created and which was only 22 pages long, was actually because I am in the process of making my "book" for my school, and am wanting to read as many other books/scrolls/dissertations I can to see how others do it.

I replied back listing my belting GM's and any organizations that were involved.. Haven't heard squat back in over two days.....

[Himura Kenshin]

A PhD in martial arts? Really? Is Master just not an illustrious enough title for them?

[terryl965]

People only get defensive when they themself have doubts about there training, sounds like you have enough info to make a good decission.

[ap Oweyn]

Twenty two indefensible pages. That says about as much as you need to know, I expect.

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not a PhD but a 22 page PhD dissertation :lfao:

You'd be better off with my PhD cut from only the finest brown shipping boxes

[Jenny_in_Chico]

A PhD from a school or organization without accreditation is worth nothing. This does not mean that a person who possesses such a degree is not a good MA'ist, or that they are ignorant. It simply means that they have a degree with no "purchasing power", if you will. It may, or may not, represent true knowledge and skill...but because the organization granting it has no outside source verifying the value of their curriculum, they are bestowing degrees upon people which are the equivalent of Monopoly money.

[Em MacIntosh]

I think Ph D. means something along the lines of "doctor of philosophy" on the relevant subject. I think you should have to go through the same grinding process as every other Ph D. student to earn it. There's certainly enough info and history to justify 8 years of study (other than MA training) on the subject but good luck writing an original thesis.

[GreatLakes]

Aren't all McDojo sokes using the fake PhD now? Seems very common.

[dbell]

Aren't all McDojo sokes using the fake PhD now? Seems very common.

I don't know, this is only the second one I've ever seen.... Still haven't heard back from him after answering his questions either...

[Brandon Fisher]

I don't know, this is only the second one I've ever seen.... Still haven't heard back from him after answering his questions either...
From what I have seen there are a lot of them.

[GreatLakes]

I don't know, this is only the second one I've ever seen.... Still haven't heard back from him after answering his questions either...


I was looking at the fraud organization called the International Martial Arts Council (IMAC) and their leader/founder touts a phony Doctorate as well as a LOT of their members.

[Tez3]

I've never seen any here, thjough that doesn't mean there aren't any. Here to earn a PHD one has to have degree first before you can go for a doctorate. I know a few fighters who have degrees and doctorates but not in martial arts lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Philosophy

[Tez3]

I was looking at the fraud organization called the International Martial Arts Council (IMAC) and their leader/founder touts a phony Doctorate as well as a LOT of their members.



I've never heard of this organisation before and I'm not American so it's nothing to me but I had a look at it and I think you seem to have something against them. The founder has an honourary PHD, states quite clearly he was awarded it and clicking on a lot of names at random I can't see any others who have claimed doctorates. A couple have degrees in Phys Ed which is a legitimate degree. There seems to be ex marines, police officers and a lot of high ranking martial artists but not phony PHds.
Others who may know this organisation can say whether the martial arts ranks are okay or not but as for the initial allegation I can't find any proof.