What made Kenpo Grow ??

[ackks10]

http://kenpotalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif
I would like to know from the mass of kenpo people out here what do you think made kenpo grow the way it is today?
by that i mean back in the 60's we had kenpo,but what made the numbers grow in the 70's and to the present

[kaizasosei]

I think it is that special snappy touch and the principles of angles etc. Probably the culture too.

j

[Jenny_in_Chico]

It is my understanding that Ed Parker was an extremely talented promoter and networker, in addition to his skill in martial arts.

[Xinglu]

Grow? If you mean grow in popularity, then I have to attribute Ed Parker with a lot of the credit. He trained a lot of celebrities, had input in hollywood movies (particularly the cult classic Perfect Weapon), and more importantly, he advertised. No other Kenpo school was advertising like him. In fact, I still don't see T.V. commercials for any schools out here.

He put it in the public light unlike anyone else. That went a long ways towards it's popularity.

[LawDog]

The main reasons are, in my opinon,
* SGM Parkers ability to organize, market and deveolp a system,
* The Tracy Brothers ability to recruit,
* Villaries ability to organize and market,
* SGM Cerios ability to organize and develop a system.
All of the above mentioned people decided to "get out of the box" in many different ways and it worked for them.
:ultracool

[Gary Crawford]

everyone's answers are correct,but something else that helped was the popularity of "Enter the Dragon" (1973) and the release of "Tao of Jeet Kune Do". It wasn't just Kenpo,but all styles were hot. It was all timing that I wish we could recreate now to get the popularity up.

[celtic_crippler]

Though some hate the idea of it....

Elvis Presley promoted it quite a bit and provided funds to do so as well.

[punisher73]

I think it helped some too that it was effective and you didn't have to wait a long time to learn self-defense.

If you look at many TMA's, you have a long period of foundation building and moves hidden within the kata that you might be able to decipher (or hope your instructor can decipher). American Kenpo stripped all of that away and gave you what to do in what situation and you knew exactly how to defend yourself.

[Flying Crane]

IIf you look at many TMA's, you have a long period of foundation building and moves hidden within the kata that you might be able to decipher (or hope your instructor can decipher). American Kenpo stripped all of that away and gave you what to do in what situation and you knew exactly how to defend yourself.

I'd hesitate to describe the stripping away of foundation building as a good thing.

[KenpoDave]

I'd hesitate to describe the stripping away of foundation building as a good thing.

I don't think foundation building was stripped away, but rather foundation building without explanation (i.e. endless hours in a horse stance with no apparent reason). Kenpo was the first art I studied where I was taught WHY from the very beginning.

[KenpoDave]

The main reasons are, in my opinon,
* SGM Parkers ability to organize, market and develop a system,
* The Tracy Brothers ability to recruit,
* Villari's ability to organize and market,
* SGM Cerio's ability to organize and develop a system.
All of the above mentioned people decided to "get out of the box" in many different ways and it worked for them.
:ultracool

I have to think in some ways the rivalries and competition created by the successes of the above helped lead to alot of growth.

[punisher73]

I don't think foundation building was stripped away, but rather foundation building without explanation (i.e. endless hours in a horse stance with no apparent reason). Kenpo was the first art I studied where I was taught WHY from the very beginning.


That is what I meant with it. Not that there was not a foundation to build, but that things were explained and a purpose given. Not do this kata for 5 years and I MIGHT share with you what it means if you are worthy of it.

[Flying Crane]

That is what I meant with it. Not that there was not a foundation to build, but that things were explained and a purpose given. Not do this kata for 5 years and I MIGHT share with you what it means if you are worthy of it.

Thanks for the clarification.

I will say this tho, based on some things I've seen on youtube and such, I think foundation-building actually WAS stripped away from at least some kenpo schools.

I get the impression that students get shown their stances, for example, and then very little attention is given to that down the road. If the student hits the stance in a sort-of-recognizable way, then it's seen as good enough. I think there is sort of an American attitude in a lot of kenpo that says, I can do this however I want, and it'll be great. People sometimes don't want to recognize that basics and foundation take a lot of attention, and in the end it really really does matter if you didn't get it right. It makes a huge difference in delivery of the techs.

I think Americans can have a resistance to being corrected. People want to feel good about what they are doing, and they don't want to hear that it needs improvement, especially if they've been doing it for a number of years. i think a lot of people could benefit from relearning and rebuilding their foundation, but for a lot of people their ego won't allow them to even consider it.

I'm not saying this is the case across the board. But I've seen a lot of things on youtube that just make me cringe, especially because people post it up with the attitude of, "hey, look at the great stuff I'm doing", and their foundation is barely existant.

As far as the main question of the thread, what made kenpo grow? I dunno, I didn't witness the growth. I grew up in a small town in Wisconsin, that was devoid of martial arts schools. Finally, I discovered a guy teaching a few students in his living room, and I enrolled. It was 1984, and he was teaching Tracy system kenpo.

I was 13 years old and I had wanted to learn "karate" since I was five, and that was the first opportunity that I had to do so, so I jumped in. It was the only instruction available in the area, so that's what I did. I hadn't really heard of it much before, and if I had a choice I probably would have done TKD or Shotokan instead because those things were more widely known at the time, at least from what I could glean from the magazines and stuff.

So for me, there was no real choice involved. No weighing of the pros and cons of the curriculum or training methods or applicability or anything like that. It was just the only option available to a 13 year-old kid, so that's what I did.

I suspect that for the masses, it was the same thing. It probably was the nearest thing available or something, so that's where they went. Maybe some people had trained in other schools first and later found something in kenpo that was lacking in their prior training. I won't discount that possibility in some cases. But I doubt there was any real organized movement of experienced people moving over into kenpo. I just have a hard time believing that.

[chaos1551]

I get the impression that students get shown their stances, for example, and then very little attention is given to that down the road. If the student hits the stance in a sort-of-recognizable way, then it's seen as good enough.

That's too bad. One of my favorite strikes is attacking with a stance.



Seems to me from what I've read that I could loosely equate the growth of kenpo to the predominance of the IBM-clone.

It was legally possible to reverse engineer IBM technology, so it grew and became everywhere. It was well-marketed and supported by a large amount of software.

Kenpo was also well-marketed and the style was spread across the U.S. relatively quickly. Since it was accessible, it spread more and grew more. Like IBM technology, it was purposefully made accessible and marketed aggressively.

I would even say that TKD had the same type of expansion in the U.S. However, TKD didn't have the marketing and networking skills of Mr. Parker to fan the flames.

[Flying Crane]

That's too bad. One of my favorite strikes is attacking with a stance.



Seems to me from what I've read that I could loosely equate the growth of kenpo to the predominance of the IBM-clone.

It was legally possible to reverse engineer IBM technology, so it grew and became everywhere. It was well-marketed and supported by a large amount of software.

Kenpo was also well-marketed and the style was spread across the U.S. relatively quickly. Since it was accessible, it spread more and grew more. Like IBM technology, it was purposefully made accessible and marketed aggressively.

I would even say that TKD had the same type of expansion in the U.S. However, TKD didn't have the marketing and networking skills of Mr. Parker to fan the flames.

Interesting analogy.

I gotta say tho, I don't see the huge growth in kenpo that a lot of people are talking about. Maybe in certain parts of the country, like LA, it's very popular, but I just don't see it elsewhere. I do not see kenpo schools on every street corner. I think TKD is still much much much more popular on that level. Every small town seems to have at least one TKD teacher, but I don't seen kenpo schools everywhere.

Maybe people are talking about an era of growth that happened in the past, and I wasn't there to see it. But currently, I don't see it, certainly now out of proportion to all the other martial arts out there. They've all become much more popular in the last 25 years or so, the industry as a whole has grown tremendously. But I don't see kenpo at the pinnacle of that growth. I just haven't seen it.

[shaolinmonkmark]

i would concur with ed parker as the main spread,second maybe perhaps cerio to villari to mattera/demasco, and also Walter Godin, and alot of the rest, like pesare, Castro, etc...
Parker has to be the #1 main spreader of kempo thoogh.

[chaos1551]

Interesting analogy.

I gotta say tho, I don't see the huge growth in kenpo that a lot of people are talking about. Maybe in certain parts of the country, like LA, it's very popular, but I just don't see it elsewhere. I do not see kenpo schools on every street corner. I think TKD is still much much much more popular on that level. Every small town seems to have at least one TKD teacher, but I don't seen kenpo schools everywhere.

Maybe people are talking about an era of growth that happened in the past, and I wasn't there to see it. But currently, I don't see it, certainly now out of proportion to all the other martial arts out there. They've all become much more popular in the last 25 years or so, the industry as a whole has grown tremendously. But I don't see kenpo at the pinnacle of that growth. I just haven't seen it.

You make a good point. It's not like kenpo is a part of the Olympics or anything. Makes me wonder what style is the most popular in the U.S. Likely a subject for another thread.

[LawDog]

No disrespect here towards these two,(I know them), but Mattera and Demasco just took what was already in place and called it by another name. So, in my opinon, they are not responsable with the large growth of Kenpo/Kempo.

[DBZ]

I have takin TKD for many years and I started taking kenpo because the art was affective. I think Kenpo speaks for itself. The self defence is wonderfull. It is one of the most well rounded martial arts out there I think

[DBZ]

P.S. My instructor is thru Tracys kenpo

[Tom Bleecker]

All martial arts styles grew during that period, not just Kenpo. That said, Kenpo flourished because of: (1) the Long Beach Internationals, (2) Bruce Lee's movies, (3) the huge success of the syndicated TV show "Kung Fu," (4) Ed Parker's charisma, (5) a tough team of Kenpo fighters who were winning on the tournament circuit, and (6) the Vietnam War, to name a half dozen. Salute

[dianhsuhe]

What made it grow? Ed Parker and his relationships with Elvis, Bruce Lee and others...

I think a better question would be "What made Kenpo/Kempo worthy of soo much growth in the first place?"

The short answer:
Professor William Kwai Sun Chow of Hawaii.

Another short answer:
A system that was created to be effective in the streets #1

Another question might be: "Would we be better off if Kenpo was NOT soo popular?"

Jamey

[shaolinmonkmark]

No disrespect here towards these two,(I know them), but Mattera and Demasco just took what was already in place and called it by another name. So, in my opinon, they are not responsable with the large growth of Kenpo/Kempo.



correct, but mattera(west coast) 's style/instructors/USSD helped in creating more students, as did demascos, as did Villari's and Cerios as well.
I look at it like this, if we take all EPAK/Shaolin Kempo/Cerio Kempo/Kempojitsu kai/Kajukembo,karazempo, Kara-Ho, and dumped in all in a bowl, there we have it!

[DocWard]

I might add that Kenpo seemed to show up in both tournements and as a basis for Kickboxing way back when. I can still remember seeing Jay T. Will as a PKA ref.

I remember looking at a Tang Soo Do school and the instructor, instead of spending his time telling me why the art had merit, spent most of his time running down EPAK as only good for tournements and kickboxing. Even though I had no real desire to compete, I ended up in Kenpo, and not Tang Soo Do. He didn't push me toward Kenpo as much as away from Tang Soo Do.

[DocWard]

Another question might be: "Would we be better off if Kenpo was NOT soo popular?"

Jamey

For me, that question is rather vague and brings forth other questions.

Would WHO be better off? Kenpo stylists? The martial arts community?

HOW do you define "better off?"

[Touch Of Death]

I might add that Kenpo seemed to show up in both tournements and as a basis for Kickboxing way back when. I can still remember seeing Jay T. Will as a PKA ref.

I remember looking at a Tang Soo Do school and the instructor, instead of spending his time telling me why the art had merit, spent most of his time running down EPAK as only good for tournements and kickboxing. Even though I had no real desire to compete, I ended up in Kenpo, and not Tang Soo Do. He didn't push me toward Kenpo as much as away from Tang Soo Do.
I would say it was the teacher you had, but welcome anyways.:)
Sean

[DocWard]

I would say it was the teacher you had, but welcome anyways.:)
Sean

Well, that part goes without saying! I would never have gotten as far as I have without the patience of my instructor!

In the interest of full disclosure, I was in San Antonio during Desert Storm, and that was my first real exposure to the martial arts, where I studied for a few months in another art. When I was getting ready to be de-activated and head home, I asked my instructor if he could recommend a style back home. Without hesitation he said "Kenpo."

[dianhsuhe]

For me, that question is rather vague and brings forth other questions.

Would WHO be better off? Kenpo stylists? The martial arts community?

HOW do you define "better off?"

68 Whiskey, thanks for your service!

I am talking about quality vs quantity, if there had not been a kenpo explosion (or at least growth) do you think that the quality of the art (styles, teachers, etc.) would be higher?

Reminds me of Ninjitsu in the 1980's, it became so popular that there were a ton of unqualified people teaching it just to capitalize financially.

Does USSD for example help the overall reputation of Kenpo?

James

[DocWard]

68 Whiskey, thanks for your service!

Thank you, very much.


I am talking about quality vs quantity, if there had not been a kenpo explosion (or at least growth) do you think that the quality of the art (styles, teachers, etc.) would be higher?

Reminds me of Ninjitsu in the 1980's, it became so popular that there were a ton of unqualified people teaching it just to capitalize financially.

I am of the opinion that despite the quantity of instructors, there remain highly proficient and respected instructors who maintain an extremely high level of quality. I would assume you don't disagree with that. So long as that remains true, it seems to me that the quantity doesn't effect the quality of the art at the highest levels.

I believe that where problems occur is when instructors who aren't qualified, either technically, in their ability to teach, or even ethically, begin to give the art a bad name, and their students further dilute the quality of the art.

To me, while it may harm the reputation of the art in the larger community, it doesn't harm the overall quality of the art.

To use an analogy, I remember a professor in law school reminding me that somewhere in the U.S., the worst lawyer in the country was practicing law. Lawyer jokes aside, does this mean the overall quality of the legal practice is low? No, only for those clients of that lawyer. If it assists the analogy, one can use doctors and medicine, or what have you. Since we still have outstanding legal minds (and medical minds), hard at work challenging the limits of our knowledge and striving to keep the highest ideals intact, we continue to have a high quality, and expand our knowledge base.


Does USSD for example help the overall reputation of Kenpo

This is sort of along the lines of what I was discussing above. Certainly, organizations have the ability to enhance or detract from overall reputation, just as individual instructors do. Sadly, it is typically the bad that we hear that is remembered, and past along.

To sum up, I am glad there was an explosion of Kenpo, or I might not have been fortunate to have an instructor in my town whom I could study under. On the other hand, I don't like the thought of someone rolling their eyes or smirking when I say I am a Kenpo stylist, so I can see the logical concern inherent in your questions.

[Flying Crane]

Another question might be: "Would we be better off if Kenpo was NOT soo popular?"

Jamey

I suspect it would be, and not just kenpo. Any art that has become really popular and wide-spread tends to lose quality.