The Cons of MMA's popularity

[Makalakumu]

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20091229/BREAKING01/91229027/Video+of+fight+between+Lahaina+boys+posted+on+YouT ube


LAHAINA — Police have counseled two Lahaina high school students involved in a mixed martial arts-style fight that was videotaped and posted on the Internet last week.


A video of the fight, on the Web site YouTube, shows the boys wearing shorts and T-shirts and throwing punches and kicks on a basketball court as a crowd of people watch. At the end of the video, which lasts 1 minute and 45 seconds, one boy is shown lying on the ground and cradling his head.


MMA is hugely popular here in Hawaii and I can't tell you how many times students at my school have walked in after participating in rumbles like these. I've got one boy who now has a permanent shoulder injury because some kid whipped an Ude Garame in an impromptu match and wrenched his shoulder out of joint. I realize that this is a popular sport, but in my neck of the woods, there is a dark side.

[Tez3]

I think this has less to do with MMA than the fact that young men will fight, I don't believe there would have been no similiar fights in the past and there are only fights now because of MMA. The only difference now to say fifty years ago is the filming it on mobiles and posting it on the net.
We had fights at my school in Scotland in the 60s that sounded exactly like this.

[sgtmac_46]

Boys will be boys. If we wanted them to be girls, we needed to get them clipped when they were born.

But since we didn't, we have to put up with them running around, banging heads, bloodying each other up, and sometimes getting injured.

[MJS]

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20091229/BREAKING01/91229027/Video+of+fight+between+Lahaina+boys+posted+on+YouT ube



MMA is hugely popular here in Hawaii and I can't tell you how many times students at my school have walked in after participating in rumbles like these. I've got one boy who now has a permanent shoulder injury because some kid whipped an Ude Garame in an impromptu match and wrenched his shoulder out of joint. I realize that this is a popular sport, but in my neck of the woods, there is a dark side.

I think its a combo of the clowns that post their backyard fights on YT, as well as the 'kids' because thats what they are, idolizing their heros so much, that they want to be like them, so rather than get their ass to a school and learn properly, under a qualified teacher, they watch TUF with their friends and then run out to the back yard and try to mimic what they see.

MMA is popular, and there are certainly no shortage of schools. If they really have that desire to do this, rather than play fight in the backyard, they need to train with the proper supervision. I highly doubt there is anyone present at these backyard fights, that has an medical qualifications as well as the common sense to call for help, should something bad happen.

[sgtmac_46]

I think its a combo of the clowns that post their backyard fights on YT, as well as the 'kids' because thats what they are, idolizing their heros so much, that they want to be like them, so rather than get their ass to a school and learn properly, under a qualified teacher, they watch TUF with their friends and then run out to the back yard and try to mimic what they see.

MMA is popular, and there are certainly no shortage of schools. If they really have that desire to do this, rather than play fight in the backyard, they need to train with the proper supervision. I highly doubt there is anyone present at these backyard fights, that has an medical qualifications as well as the common sense to call for help, should something bad happen.

There wasn't any supervision when I was a kid playing full contact backyard football or wrestling, or boxing or fist fighting down the block.

Though perhaps it would have been nice to have had someone point out the fact that cardboard gliders don't fly before we pushed ours out of the barn loft and dropped like a rock........

My personal opinion, though, is that there are too many nannies in this day and age.......quite frankly I think these kids are capable of learning the hard way like I did.......after a few trips to the hospital for stitches.............besides, we all instinctively knew that 'Don't try this at home' was just for the lawyers anyway. ;)

[MJS]

There wasn't any supervision when I was a kid playing full contact backyard football or wrestling, or boxing or fist fighting down the block.

Though perhaps it would have been nice to have had someone point out the fact that cardboard gliders don't fly before we pushed ours out of the barn loft and dropped like a rock........

My personal opinion, though, is that there are too many nannies in this day and age.......quite frankly I think these kids are capable of learning the hard way like I did.......after a few trips to the hospital for stitches.............besides, we all instinctively knew that 'Don't try this at home' was just for the lawyers anyway. ;)

Perhaps its because of what people think. People see nothing wrong with playing the all American game of football, climbing trees, baseball, etc. But mention fighting, martial arts, and the like, and the picture that gets painted is less than pleasing.

Yes, there are times today, as well as in my own life, when I was younger, that the learning the hard way, came into play. :) On the flip side, that can also bite you in the ass. I mean, shouldn't we draw the line somewhere? In other words, I would think there're some instances in which flat out telling the person not to do something, rather than learning the hard way, is much better. That trip to the hospital may end up being a 1 way trip.

[Omar B]

It's no different from the backyard wrestling a decade ago, the backyard karate before that in the 70's and the backyard judo before that. Guys are gonna be dumb teens and fight (not all, but enough). Video cameras, the internet and the idea of people becoming internet celebrities for the dumbest reasons means we just hear about it more.

[Makalakumu]

I think this has less to do with MMA than the fact that young men will fight, I don't believe there would have been no similiar fights in the past and there are only fights now because of MMA. The only difference now to say fifty years ago is the filming it on mobiles and posting it on the net.

We had fights at my school in Scotland in the 60s that sounded exactly like this.

We had our fights in school and I've participated in *ahem* a couple *ahem* myself. We played around with professional wrestling moves and pretended to be like the guys in the male soap operas. Yes, boys will be boys.

MMA steps up that action and had the potential to make it more dangerous though. Many of the jujutsu techniques were designed to maim and kill if they are taken to that point. I've got no problem with people learning MMA or competing, but when I go to the beach and see a couple nine year olds throwing arm bar, knee bars, kimuras, etc, I start to wonder at the wisdom of various parents and of the general hype of MMA in general.

This is a downside to the sport IMO. You could say the same about any sport.

[Makalakumu]

The other thing this brings up is that from a self defense perspective, its a good bet that the thugs are doing this. You better have a high enough skill level that you could defeat someone with some level of training.

[James Kovacich]

It's no different from the backyard wrestling a decade ago, the backyard karate before that in the 70's and the backyard judo before that. Guys are gonna be dumb teens and fight (not all, but enough). Video cameras, the internet and the idea of people becoming internet celebrities for the dumbest reasons means we just hear about it more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i22lvUD1kfU&feature=PlayList&p=7B3BFBC860DF0A50&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=99

[girlbug2]

The other thing this brings up is that from a self defense perspective, its a good bet that the thugs are doing this. You better have a high enough skill level that you could defeat someone with some level of training.

Exactly. Any reality-based SD art had better incorporate defenses against groundfighting into the curriculum...because thugs watch TUF as much as anybody else, I'm sure.

[Makalakumu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i22lvUD1kfU&feature=PlayList&p=7B3BFBC860DF0A50&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=99

Thanks, James, there are a ton of fighting videos from Hawaii. Check youtube for waianae scraps or fights. It's part of the culture. There's a reason kajukenbo grew up here.

[sgtmac_46]

Perhaps its because of what people think. People see nothing wrong with playing the all American game of football, climbing trees, baseball, etc. But mention fighting, martial arts, and the like, and the picture that gets painted is less than pleasing.

Yes, there are times today, as well as in my own life, when I was younger, that the learning the hard way, came into play. :) On the flip side, that can also bite you in the ass. I mean, shouldn't we draw the line somewhere? In other words, I would think there're some instances in which flat out telling the person not to do something, rather than learning the hard way, is much better. That trip to the hospital may end up being a 1 way trip.

Telling them is good.......but if they insist on doing it anyway, that's their business.

[sgtmac_46]

It's no different from the backyard wrestling a decade ago, the backyard karate before that in the 70's and the backyard judo before that. Guys are gonna be dumb teens and fight (not all, but enough). Video cameras, the internet and the idea of people becoming internet celebrities for the dumbest reasons means we just hear about it more.

Exactly! Youtube didn't invent boys acting like boys.......it just records the stupid moments for posterity.......which is like creating the perception that it's happening more, but it's not really.

[Tez3]

Exactly. Any reality-based SD art had better incorporate defenses against groundfighting into the curriculum...because thugs watch TUF as much as anybody else, I'm sure.

Looking at the last series of TUF though they will learn very little, some of the so called fighters didn't and they were there! :uhohh:

[sgtmac_46]

Looking at the last series of TUF though they will learn very little, some of the so called fighters didn't and they were there! :uhohh:

Yeah, there's really not much technique demonstrated on 'TUF'......it's mostly 'The Real World' with testosterone and an occasional fight.

[Tez3]

One of Rampage's team coaches, Tom Blackledge, is English and he was saying that there was no time to coach properly, there were so many fights that they didn't want to risk getting them injured so they just taught them the very basics. He said too that Rampage was slammed as being a bad cornerman but as Tom said how can you shout juijitsu instructions etc to people who didn't even know the basics of juijitsu. On the other team five of them had been training with Rashad at Greg Jacksons camp anyway before the programme started. Tom speaks well of Kimbo, says he is very willing to learn and he thinks he's with America Top Team at the moment. Tom's a pretty mean fighter himself as well as a good coach.
The last TUF did a huge disservice to MMA.

[sgtmac_46]

One of Rampage's team coaches, Tom Blackledge, is English and he was saying that there was no time to coach properly, there were so many fights that they didn't want to risk getting them injured so they just taught them the very basics. He said too that Rampage was slammed as being a bad cornerman but as Tom said how can you shout juijitsu instructions etc to people who didn't even know the basics of juijitsu. On the other team five of them had been training with Rashad at Greg Jacksons camp anyway before the programme started. Tom speaks well of Kimbo, says he is very willing to learn and he thinks he's with America Top Team at the moment. Tom's a pretty mean fighter himself as well as a good coach.
The last TUF did a huge disservice to MMA.

Can't disagree with that.

On the topic of Kimbo, his biggest problem is that he's getting too old. He's at an age where most fighters are looking at retirement in the near future. He's one knee injury away from retiring before starting.

[MJS]

Telling them is good.......but if they insist on doing it anyway, that's their business.

Absolutely, and while I do agree with what you're saying, I was just looking at it from the possibility that should someones 15yo son be engaging in UFC wanna be activity, and God forbid the kid gets injured, I could just imagine the parents getting a lawyer and accusing the family where the incident happened, of neglect and not supervising the kids properly, blah, blah, blah.

I mean, if some careless driver sues McDonalds for coffee being too hot, coffee that SHE spilled on herself, well, I think you know where I'm going with this. :)

[Jenny_in_Chico]

Can't disagree with that.

On the topic of Kimbo, his biggest problem is that he's getting too old. He's at an age where most fighters are looking at retirement in the near future. He's one knee injury away from retiring before starting.

Yeah, when you see the poor guy walk down a short flight of stairs it's painful. He walks like an old man. But he hits like a freight train so I guess it evens out.

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I agree that the adage "boys will be boys" is true. And I believe it is a good thing. Scrapping and wrestling with one another from a very young age enhances fighting ability as adults. The constant use of one's body in a particular way will actually determine the neural connections made as the brain develops. Even when the play fighting is untutored, boys learn to use their bodies in a way that will help them their entire lives. Girls being girls, because of different societal expectations and the absence of the testosterone drive, don't get this mock fighting experience. So when we start to train for self defense as adults, we don't perform at the same level as males do. We have to train much harder and longer to just get up to the same level as males with no formal training. Our brains are wired differently, because most of us lack the childhood mock fighting experience that boys gain by "being boys". So I say that we should continue to encourage boys to fight, supervised and unsupervised, and encourage girls to fight too.

[Tez3]

I agree that the adage "boys will be boys" is true. And I believe it is a good thing. Scrapping and wrestling with one another from a very young age enhances fighting ability as adults. The constant use of one's body in a particular way will actually determine the neural connections made as the brain develops. Even when the play fighting is untutored, boys learn to use their bodies in a way that will help them their entire lives. Girls being girls, because of different societal expectations and the absence of the testosterone drive, don't get this mock fighting experience. So when we start to train for self defense as adults, we don't perform at the same level as males do. We have to train much harder and longer to just get up to the same level as males with no formal training. Our brains are wired differently, because most of us lack the childhood mock fighting experience that boys gain by "being boys". So I say that we should continue to encourage boys to fight, supervised and unsupervised, and encourage girls to fight too.

Spot on there Jenny! I got picked on at school for a couple of reasons and my first reaction was always to attack, quite literally. I would thump anyone who threatened me or my brother, this was probably because my father taught me to box from a very early age. Teaching women to spar is harder than teaching men but if the girls are young enough teaching them is the same as teaching boys, it's a case of teaching girls to let go and go for it, boys rarely have to be taught this.

[sgtmac_46]

Absolutely, and while I do agree with what you're saying, I was just looking at it from the possibility that should someones 15yo son be engaging in UFC wanna be activity, and God forbid the kid gets injured, I could just imagine the parents getting a lawyer and accusing the family where the incident happened, of neglect and not supervising the kids properly, blah, blah, blah.

I mean, if some careless driver sues McDonalds for coffee being too hot, coffee that SHE spilled on herself, well, I think you know where I'm going with this. :)

That's why we need to get rid of all the lawyers.

[Grendel308]

Wait a minute, isn't that King Henry the 6th? " The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers?" :knight2:
lori

[Tez3]

Wait a minute, isn't that King Henry the 6th? " The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers?" :knight2:
lori


Shakespeare has Dick the Butcher say the words.
http://www.william-shakespeare.info/act4-script-text-henry-vi-part2.htm

[Bruno@MT]

That's why we need to get rid of all the lawyers.

We need to get rid of stupid parents.

What we do is a martial art. Keyword being 'martial'. There is always the possibility of getting hurt. The chances may be worse for some than for others (e.g. Muay thai vs iaido) but when all is said and done, a system comes with its set of rules / guidelines and precautions, and you know what to expect. As long as you stay within those constraints, it's a case of '**** happens'.

If a 15 year old breaks something in a regular MMA fight (I have no idea whether kids can even compete) then it sucks to be that kid, but nothing more than that.

[Makalakumu]

If a 15 year old breaks something in a regular MMA fight (I have no idea whether kids can even compete) then it sucks to be that kid, but nothing more than that.

One thing I try to emphasize when talking to kids who participate in these backyard rumbles is that they should go and get some formal training in MMA if they are interested. I try to point them in the direction of this or that studio, whichever one is closest to their home. There's something to be said about having a controlled training environment where the rules are enforced and instruction is guided by an instructor. Sure the backyard fights are fun and exciting, but so is real competition.

If I can help it at all, I would like to dissuade my students from developing the thug mindset like the youtube Kimbo Slice. And I think that the environment is going to be less prone to serious injury inside an actual studio. Yes, boys will be boys and I certainly wouldn't want to stop anyone from doing something that comes naturally to them, however, we are talking about a chance for serious injury that could be avoided simply by a change in environment.

It's this kind of mindset that guides my decision as a caring adult who guides children for a living. And I'm glad someone moved me in a similar direction because it led to me starting Judo in middle school.

[Andrew Green]

Dana White, Kenny Florian & Forrest Griffin on "fight clubs":

PBgtccZgrbc

...unfortunately you also have Dr Phil in there.

[Makalakumu]

Dana White, Kenny Florian & Forrest Griffin on "fight clubs":

PBgtccZgrbc

...unfortunately you also have Dr Phil in there.

Thanks for that clip, Andrew. I'm using it next time I deal with this situation.

[sgtmac_46]

Again, nothing different than a pickup game of tackle football in the backyard.......kids will always do it, no matter how many official announcements of 'Kids, don't try this at home'.

[K831]

Again, nothing different than a pickup game of tackle football in the backyard.......kids will always do it, no matter how many official announcements of 'Kids, don't try this at home'.

Exactly. I did it as a young man, and so did my buddies and my brothers. The real difference, we didn't apply UFC rules, rather, the goal was to kick the crap out of the other guy. He wasn't a buddy, it was a fight against rivals, and the risk (and occurrence) of real injury was much higher than with these kids who are applying MMA competition types of rules in their fight clubs. That's a more positive way to blow off that youthful male aggression, better than a real brawl.

Wouldn't that actually be a positive of MMA's popularity?

[sgtmac_46]

Exactly. I did it as a young man, and so did my buddies and my brothers. The real difference, we didn't apply UFC rules, rather, the goal was to kick the crap out of the other guy. He wasn't a buddy, it was a fight against rivals, and the risk (and occurrence) of real injury was much higher than with these kids who are applying MMA competition types of rules in their fight clubs. That's a more positive way to blow off that youthful male aggression, better than a real brawl.

Wouldn't that actually be a positive of MMA's popularity?

Don't I know it! Two men to a fight, one fight at a time, and when a man taps out, gets knocked out, or the 'ref' sees someone has had enough, the fight is over.

There are worse ways to resolve conflicts..........like the kind of melee's I have been the unfortunate participant in on too many occasions as a youth.

If anything, the UFC seems to have brought a sense of fair play BACK to the kind of neighborhood brawls that will never really go away........everyone knows the rules, and everyone knows it's two to a fight.

[TheArtofDave]

The problem is that these kids see UFC, or maybe even Strike Force. Instead of being educated some of them are full contact hitting each other. Without realizing what kind of damage that can lead to.

However, telling them hey don't do this will make them want to do it even more. Parents should be responsible to talk to their children, and say hey if you've got an interest in Martial Arts like you see on TV. I'll take you to a school, and you can learn the proper training to do it professionally. Or you can learn the actual respect for the art you're taking so you won't continue in reckless activity.

Tackle football was always more competitive. I'd play with friends who would teach me offensive, and defensive plays. Where to stand, routes to run but when you got hit it wasn't to hurt you. You'd be pulled up, and told hey you're tough for taking that hit, and here are some tips to tackle better. Sports have their ups & downs.

What parents have to do is be responsible. Guys are going to be stupid, and impulsive so the right kind of education, along with the proper method of learning is the way to go.