sure signs of a mcdojo and other schools to watch out for...

[wushuguy]

For those looking to start martial arts for the first time, and those questioning the school they're in now, here's a few things to look out for:

1. the "grandmaster" who promises that you will gain forever happiness if you follow him
2. monthly school activities, admission is charged, discounts may be provided if you bring a friend
3. monthly testing which costs a lump of money, trophies and certificates are provided, students pass even when obvious they don't perform well
4. payment plans where the real price is difficult to figure out
5. when signing up, you have to sign up today or this week to take advantage of the "special deal" which the salesman/instructor is giving you because he "likes" you
6. the instructors/masters/grandmaster says you will solve all problems by practicing martial arts
7. master/grandmaster who says he can teach you to travel vast distances during meditation and enter new worlds...
8. places where instructors/office workers, don't last long
9. places where students are unsure if they can defend them self even after some years of practice
10. places where you hear high ranking students stuck in a contract mumbling amongst themselves how they're paying the big bucks to learn how to get their asses kicked
11. any place or mc-chain school that bomb rushes you to sign up for a contract as soon as you enter the door
12. places where you can only "upgrade" your contract and not renew your existing contract (why need a contract anyway?)
13. if looking for practical self-defense, avoid places where the majority of students are children or "pee wee" and which have adult students but never seem to practice anything reliable for modern considerations, or where their self-defense consists of 1 step style sparing where attacker leave limb out and defender assumes a horse stance or forward stance to execute a block and do a reverse punch which he leaves his arm out also... thinking this was perfect self-defense
14. places where you learn to throw multi-colored ki/chi/qi balls
15. places where you learn "secret ultra deadly" techniques after a month or two of classes
16. the master/grandmaster who forces you to pledge your loyalty and/or life to him

Anyway, this is just a short list. Just some things to watch out for, because in this world, people are often thinking of their pocket books first rather than thinking of the student's needs. And some places are a little wacky that might affect one's sanity or may be potentially harmful.

[Xue Sheng]

And don't forget, if this guy (http://www.mediabistro.com/unbeige/original/Ronald%20McDonald.jpg)is the sansei it is likely a McDojos

[Tensei85]

And don't forget, if this guy (http://www.mediabistro.com/unbeige/original/Ronald%20McDonald.jpg)is the sansei it is likely a McDojos

Where did you find that picture of my "old" Seefu?

[Tensei85]

For those looking to start martial arts for the first time, and those questioning the school they're in now, here's a few things to look out for:

1. the "grandmaster" who promises that you will gain forever happiness if you follow him
2. monthly school activities, admission is charged, discounts may be provided if you bring a friend
3. monthly testing which costs a lump of money, trophies and certificates are provided, students pass even when obvious they don't perform well
4. payment plans where the real price is difficult to figure out
5. when signing up, you have to sign up today or this week to take advantage of the "special deal" which the salesman/instructor is giving you because he "likes" you
6. the instructors/masters/grandmaster says you will solve all problems by practicing martial arts
7. master/grandmaster who says he can teach you to travel vast distances during meditation and enter new worlds...
8. places where instructors/office workers, don't last long
9. places where students are unsure if they can defend them self even after some years of practice
10. places where you hear high ranking students stuck in a contract mumbling amongst themselves how they're paying the big bucks to learn how to get their asses kicked
11. any place or mc-chain school that bomb rushes you to sign up for a contract as soon as you enter the door
12. places where you can only "upgrade" your contract and not renew your existing contract (why need a contract anyway?)
13. if looking for practical self-defense, avoid places where the majority of students are children or "pee wee" and which have adult students but never seem to practice anything reliable for modern considerations, or where their self-defense consists of 1 step style sparing where attacker leave limb out and defender assumes a horse stance or forward stance to execute a block and do a reverse punch which he leaves his arm out also... thinking this was perfect self-defense
14. places where you learn to throw multi-colored ki/chi/qi balls
15. places where you learn "secret ultra deadly" techniques after a month or two of classes
16. the master/grandmaster who forces you to pledge your loyalty and/or life to him

Anyway, this is just a short list. Just some things to watch out for, because in this world, people are often thinking of their pocket books first rather than thinking of the student's needs. And some places are a little wacky that might affect one's sanity or may be potentially harmful.

Experienced all thee above, except color qi balls... do you know who would teach that? so my arsenal will be complete.

[wushuguy]

wow, you met all those kinds of people too! good experience for both of us then. perhaps others have experienced some questionable instructors of these types or other types also?

the ki ball guy i met, he was in southern CA, somewhat demented TKD guy.... I know he moved overseas, England I think. Anyway I won't name names here, but gosh, some people really need to learn to draw the line between reality and DBZ! but maybe he matured a bit and out grew the ki blasts?

[masurai]

And don't forget, if this guy (http://www.mediabistro.com/unbeige/original/Ronald%20McDonald.jpg)is the sansei it is likely a McDojos

I have to disagree, Guro Ronald has many things to offer. For example weapons such as the spurting flower of death, hiding twenty of your buddies in your car. and lets not forget the shoes. And my favorite how to make your attacker laugh his self to death. But we don't teach that to just anyone, you have to join the super secret ninja samurai club first :-),

[SahBumNimRush]

I TOTALLY agree with your list! However, #13 shouldn't be an immediate disqualifier.. . Our dojang is VERY traditional, but our branch school has seen fluctuations in age diversity.. . Right now there are only a dozen adults and 40 children! Talk about a handful as an instructor! I would love to bring in more adults/teenagers, but our demos over the past year seem to bring parents in wanting their children to sign up.. .

However, I don't think that is what you meant by #13, we don't offer "lil dragons" or other shinanigans like that.. .

[wushuguy]

I TOTALLY agree with your list! However, #13 shouldn't be an immediate disqualifier.. . Our dojang is VERY traditional, but our branch school has seen fluctuations in age diversity.. . Right now there are only a dozen adults and 40 children! Talk about a handful as an instructor! I would love to bring in more adults/teenagers, but our demos over the past year seem to bring parents in wanting their children to sign up.. .

However, I don't think that is what you meant by #13, we don't offer "lil dragons" or other shinanigans like that.. .

Yeah, that isn't what I was meaning, I'm sorry for not being clear on that aspect.

Having many children in class is good, because if you can get them started off right at a young age it's better for the long run.

But for adults, they need to have something geared for adults. And children need curriculum geared for their age. There was a school I've seen and visited where the kids as young as 3, and adults have exactly same cirriculum and the place is run more like a daycare with "cute uniforms" rather than a serious martial arts school... the adults who went to the classes were mostly the parents of the kids who were looking for family style class where they can work out with the kids, rather than the adults learning what adults should learn for a martial art... because in my opinion, there will be needed difference between adult and child curriculum. And for the most part I don't think very young children and adults should partner with each other during class, because the adult loses out on actual class instruction and becomes like a babysitter for the young one.

[Xue Sheng]

If this (http://www.edwardsamuels.com/ILLUSTRATEDSTORY/chapter%207/mccheese2.jpg) is one of the senior students it might be a McDojos


I have to disagree, Guro Ronald has many things to offer. For example weapons such as the spurting flower of death, hiding twenty of your buddies in your car. and lets not forget the shoes. And my favorite how to make your attacker laugh his self to death. But we don't teach that to just anyone, you have to join the super secret ninja samurai club first :-),

I forgot about that... I guess I could be wrong :D


But if this (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WgVQ68GZSqw/SP0KNA9WlnI/AAAAAAAAABc/boO5uKjMtdQ/s400/hamburglar.jpg) guy is there its a McDojos for sure

[Tensei85]

I have to disagree, Guro Ronald has many things to offer. For example weapons such as the spurting flower of death, hiding twenty of your buddies in your car. and lets not forget the shoes. And my favorite how to make your attacker laugh his self to death. But we don't teach that to just anyone, you have to join the super secret ninja samurai club first :-),

Ah, so Ronald was a Shinobi after all. I always wondered...

[Xue Sheng]

If this is part of the school uniform.. you might be at a McDojos
http://rivalfightgear.com/store/tshirts/mcdojo/1.jpg
By the way there is a Wikipeida def of McDojos here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDojo)

[Tensei85]

If this is part of the school uniform.. you might be at a McDojos
http://rivalfightgear.com/store/tshirts/mcdojo/1.jpg
By the way there is a Wikipeida def of McDojos here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDojo)

Holy Crap! That was our School uniform! We also had belt ranking from as followed, white, yellow, green, blue, purple, pink, orange, brown, red, beige, teal, & a special one for paying 50K generally up front... no refunds.

[terryl965]

man thee is truely a real master out there

[masurai]

If this (http://www.edwardsamuels.com/ILLUSTRATEDSTORY/chapter%207/mccheese2.jpg) is one of the senior students it might be a McDojos



I forgot about that... I guess I could be wrong :D


But if this (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WgVQ68GZSqw/SP0KNA9WlnI/AAAAAAAAABc/boO5uKjMtdQ/s400/hamburglar.jpg) guy is there its a McDojos for sure

Sorry, but again you have been misinformed. Let us not forget about the damage caused by a overcooked burger when used as a thrown weapon, or a regular burger can be used to cause heart attack, also there is the deadly spatula. And of course his favorite tactic, stealing food. It's hard to fight on a empty belly.

[grydth]

Sorry, but again you have been misinformed. Let us not forget about the damage caused by a overcooked burger when used as a thrown weapon, or a regular burger can be used to cause heart attack, also there is the deadly spatula. And of course his favorite tactic, stealing food. It's hard to fight on a empty belly.

The one true form of this art is actually Western European, not Asian. The grand masters are known as "burgermeisters" and are so esteemed that they get to be the mayor, too! (In Germany, the place where politicians gather is known as the Rathouse.... a title which should be used in the USA as a matter of consumer protection)

[SahBumNimRush]

Having many children in class is good, because if you can get them started off right at a young age it's better for the long run.

But for adults, they need to have something geared for adults. And children need curriculum geared for their age. There was a school I've seen and visited where the kids as young as 3, and adults have exactly same cirriculum and the place is run more like a daycare with "cute uniforms" rather than a serious martial arts school... the adults who went to the classes were mostly the parents of the kids who were looking for family style class where they can work out with the kids, rather than the adults learning what adults should learn for a martial art... because in my opinion, there will be needed difference between adult and child curriculum. And for the most part I don't think very young children and adults should partner with each other during class, because the adult loses out on actual class instruction and becomes like a babysitter for the young one.

Yes I totally agree, EVERYONE in the class must be challenged, by age, skill and rank.. . It erks me to see/hear students of various ages and skill levels not being challenged in day to day class. Adults don't start class to become better babysitters! Self-defense, weight loss, etc.. . but not babysitting. I know this is getting a bit off topic, but the other thing that gets me is the variance in skill level. If a higher rank only works out with a lower rank in class and is never challenged themselves, what keeps them interested???

As long as EVERYONE in class is challenged to push their own envelope physically and mentally, everyone should leave satisfied that night.

BTW, I know what you were saying about #13 and I agree with you 100%, just putting in my 2 cents about age variation in class.

[Grendel308]

The one true form of this art is actually Western European, not Asian. The grand masters are known as "burgermeisters" and are so esteemed that they get to be the mayor, too! (In Germany, the place where politicians gather is known as the Rathouse.... a title which should be used in the USA as a matter of consumer protection)

So the house specialty being the "Ratburger" would mean that the Grand Master would be G. Gordon Liddy? Well we can all learn about headshots.

[romaj]

There's also a camo belt...

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry, but again you have been misinformed. Let us not forget about the damage caused by a overcooked burger when used as a thrown weapon, or a regular burger can be used to cause heart attack, also there is the deadly spatula. And of course his favorite tactic, stealing food. It's hard to fight on a empty belly.

DAMN!!!!

I didn't know that :D

[masurai]

DAMN!!!!

I didn't know that :D

Blame not yourself, after all you were up againest a master of Random-Fact-Do

[MA-Caver]

Joking aside here, I think probably one of the other "red flags" is where the GM or senior instructor cannot provide a linage when asked. If you get a dumb look, RUN. If they say oh our GM was directly taught by Bruce Lee, Dan Isanto, Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Segal, Richard "Dick" Marcinko and so on... RUN.
If the GM says there is no other linage beyond him... RUN
If the senior instructor says they have a BB in more than 3 arts and they're in their late 20's or early 30's RUN! (think about how long it would take to get a BB in a single art and do the math... true some folks have crossed trained to obtain BB's in different arts but when they got belts in more than 3 ... to me that has a whiff of something coming out of a bull's butt).

My fiancee and I are planning to take MA together (depending where we live and what is available... we are in a LDR at the moment so our choice of places to live is still up in the air), and thanks to MT I know more about what to watch out for when we finally decide upon our chosen art so to not get bent over the fence.
I plan on taking a couple of days to get to know the school and the instructors and the students before finally signing on... and I'll definitely gather information on the instructor and post them here and inquire about their linage, hoping that someone will recognize someone along that line, chances should be pretty good.

I am a bit leery of schools that offer more than one art. I understand that sometimes different instructors with different arts, will join up together to help pay the rent/space and have alternating days for their respective classes... still it's something I'll be looking out for.

[Grendel308]

Some arts are just so closely related though. Judo ( older school) and jujitsui. A shodan in one can quickly translate to a BB in the other. To pick up a third in another related art ( related in techniques and methodology) wouldn't be that hard for someone who started Judo as a child. I kind of expect some one who is competative in Judo to be studying Jujitsui with a specialist and have ranking in that as well. You kind of need to toss Sambo in there as well these days.
lori

[blindsage]

11. any place or mc-chain school that bomb rushes you to sign up for a contract as soon as you enter the door

bumrushes

(Takes slang corrector hat back off)

[Twin Fist]

because in my opinion, there will be needed difference between adult and child curriculum. And for the most part I don't think very young children and adults should partner with each other during class,


You wouldnt like my school then, because i have ONE curriculum, and it is the same for the kids as it is for the adults

and i MAKE kids work with adults, since that is who, in all reality, they will need to defend themselves against in the real world.

[Teufel Hunden]

I am a bit leery of schools that offer more than one art. I understand that sometimes different instructors with different arts, will join up together to help pay the rent/space and have alternating days for their respective classes... still it's something I'll be looking out for.


I wouldn't be automatically leery of multi-art schools, depending on what they are. My BJJ school also has Thai Boxing incorporated with the training, and it's an excellent school. Their main focus is still the BJJ though. With the increasing popularity of Mixed Martial Arts, I've seen more and more schools offer a "well rounded" curriculum, and shift slightly from the traditional single-art style.

[Blade96]

Joking aside here, I think probably one of the other "red flags" is where the GM or senior instructor cannot provide a linage when asked. If you get a dumb look, RUN. If they say oh our GM was directly taught by Bruce Lee, Dan Isanto, Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Segal, Richard "Dick" Marcinko and so on... RUN.
If the GM says there is no other linage beyond him... RUN to me that has a whiff of something coming out of a bull's butt).

.

I did kenpo karate for 2 months where the school had some mcdojo characteristics though it might not have been a mcdojo. like the schools prices especially for beginners are insane. I went in as beginner little white belt and for 2 months of training at 2 classes per week for sometimes not even one full hour, you had to pay $225 canadian plus the cost of a black gi which was about 50 bucks o total about $300 for 2 months for a white belt! (course t was a family business where they actually made a living off ma so maybe the price had to be up a bit.) also half the class wasnt even kenpo stuff, it was running skipping, jumping jacks, etc. I was paying to do pushups? Wtf. Also, there was a guy of 17 who earned his black belt at age 12. So, kid black belts. In addition, the sensei would sometimes have his son teach the class. The son was only a green belt! go figure! Also even if you knew every bit of Kenpo stuff and could do it with power and grace perfectly, and had flexibility and so on, you still wouldnt be able to pass a belt test unless you could pass a physical. For white belts in order to get your yellow belt you had to be able to do 50 pushups (and I dunno how many situps) I believe it COULD be a ruse to keep students who loved kenpo there longer because if you were there longer you paid them more money and it would take you longer to earn belts if you couldnt pass the physical. and I didnt wait to find out. as soon as my ten weeks were up, I left. (well i was really looking for shotokan, not Kenpo. But I tried a kenpo school anyway.)

I'd be interested to hear what Kenpokas have to say about this though.

None of this would happen with the Shotokan Karate-Do organization I am part of now. In addition to having none of the characteristics above or no mcdojo characteristics mentioned in this thread, the association and its senseis have their lineage going back to Funakoshi himself (since my senseis knew and were testing by guys like Masami Tsuruoka and Hidetaka Nishiyama (who was an actual student of Funakoshi)

[Carol]

If this is part of the school uniform.. you might be at a McDojos
http://rivalfightgear.com/store/tshirts/mcdojo/1.jpg
By the way there is a Wikipeida def of McDojos here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDojo)

If you're at one in Canada, is it called a MacDojo? :D

[Carol]

I did kenpo karate for 2 months where the school had some mcdojo characteristics though it might not have been a mcdojo. like the schools prices especially for beginners are insane. I went in as beginner little white belt and for 2 months of training at 2 classes per week for sometimes not even one full hour, you had to pay $225 canadian plus the cost of a black gi which was about 50 bucks o total about $300 for 2 months for a white belt! (course t was a family business where they actually made a living off ma so maybe the price had to be up a bit.) also half the class wasnt even kenpo stuff, it was running skipping, jumping jacks, etc. I was paying to do pushups? Wtf. Also, there was a guy of 17 who earned his black belt at age 12. So, kid black belts. In addition, the sensei would sometimes have his son teach the class. The son was only a green belt! go figure! Also even if you knew every bit of Kenpo stuff and could do it with power and grace perfectly, and had flexibility and so on, you still wouldnt be able to pass a belt test unless you could pass a physical. For white belts in order to get your yellow belt you had to be able to do 50 pushups (and I dunno how many situps) I believe it COULD be a ruse to keep students who loved kenpo there longer because if you were there longer you paid them more money and it would take you longer to earn belts if you couldnt pass the physical. and I didnt wait to find out. as soon as my ten weeks were up, I left. (well i was really looking for shotokan, not Kenpo. But I tried a kenpo school anyway.)

I'd be interested to hear what Kenpokas have to say about this though.

None of this would happen with the Shotokan Karate-Do organization I am part of now. In addition to having none of the characteristics above or no mcdojo characteristics mentioned in this thread, the association and its senseis have their lineage going back to Funakoshi himself (since my senseis knew and were testing by guys like Masami Tsuruoka and Hidetaka Nishiyama (who was an actual student of Funakoshi)

To be honest, the Kenpo school doesn't sound horrible as I think you're trying to make it ;)

I think fitness is one of the most important things a martial arts school can emphasize. I also think its up to the consumer to make a wise choice. If you don't want pushups, fitness tests, etc., then don't go to a school where they are offered. They definitely benefited me, and I think they would benefit a lot of Kenpoists as well.

Earning a junior black belt at 12 or 13 is fairly common. The subject of child black belts is a debate of its own, but that doesn't make the school out of bounds. Having a green belt lead class is not unusual either. Remember, in many arts, green is a beginner's rank, but in Kenpo, green is a more advanced rank (4th kyu). This is a good time for students to begin leading instructing others and leading class.

The biggest issue to me is that many of the folks I met of the folks that I have met in a similar situation...when they want to be in "Style A" but instead are in "Style B." Frankly speaking, it really doesn't matter what the styles in question are, the end result is the same. The student is unhappy, it is not what they want, and they speak as though they were personally insulted by the style and were quite bitter about it.

Glad to hear you enjoying the Shotokan. Its a wonderful thing to find a great fit with the school. :)

[Blade96]

To be honest, the Kenpo school doesn't sound horrible as I think you're trying to make it ;)

I think fitness is one of the most important things a martial arts school can emphasize. I also think its up to the consumer to make a wise choice. If you don't want pushups, fitness tests, etc., then don't go to a school where they are offered. They definitely benefited me, and I think they would benefit a lot of Kenpoists as well.

Earning a junior black belt at 12 or 13 is fairly common. The subject of child black belts is a debate of its own, but that doesn't make the school out of bounds. Having a green belt lead class is not unusual either. Remember, in many arts, green is a beginner's rank, but in Kenpo, green is a more advanced rank (4th kyu). This is a good time for students to begin leading instructing others and leading class.

The biggest issue to me is that many of the folks I met of the folks that I have met in a similar situation...when they want to be in "Style A" but instead are in "Style B." Frankly speaking, it really doesn't matter what the styles in question are, the end result is the same. The student is unhappy, it is not what they want, and they speak as though they were personally insulted by the style and were quite bitter about it.

Must be different with kenpo then. at my shotokan school a green belt leading class - the senseis would be shocked at the idea! Cause only blacks and brown belts actually teach as part of their training.

and no, the kenpo school wasnt HORRIBLE, pe se. lots of people loved to train there, and they love their Sensei and he them. I think with me it was mostly just a case of horses for courses and the fact that I really was looking for a Shotokan school. I know people say 'its the teacher not the art' but I really was looking for a certain art. shotokan. and also why i said I didnt necessarily believe the school is a mcdojo.

also want to add that the Kenpo school taught several arts: kenpo, BJJ, kickboxing, thai boxing, and gracie ju jitsu.


Glad to hear you enjoying the Shotokan. Its a wonderful thing to find a great fit with the school. :)

Thanks. I lucked into it pretty much. The first shotokan school I found....is exactly what a shotokan school should be. =] and I stayed. Been there ever since.

[Shawn]

Joking aside here, I think probably one of the other "red flags" is where the GM or senior instructor cannot provide a linage when asked. If you get a dumb look, RUN. If they say oh our GM was directly taught by Bruce Lee, Dan Isanto, Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Segal, Richard "Dick" Marcinko and so on... RUN. .

There are quite a few legitimate instructors out there who were trained directly by Guro Inosanto, and those ranked under him can also truthfully say "our GM was directly taught by Bruce Lee" - and very few of those people (if any) would fall under the McDojo lable.

Shawn

[wushuguy]

To compete against the numerous Mcdojos I'm going to start a franchise... I'll open up a Dojo King across the street from the nearest Mcdojo.

:ultracool

[matrixman]

Sorry, amigo, I already built a Jack in the Dojo there (or was that dojo in a box? I forget) But you can open up catty corner...

[Draven]

Places where you learn "secret ultra deadly" techniques after a month or two of classes.

Hey leave me out of this... :D

Actually I'm not too worried about people teaching you the "secret ultra deadly" techniques because its the schools that wait 10 years to teach realistic SD training that make the schools who make the claim so effective for marketting. Good post BTW...

[JWLuiza]

That's a really good point. I sometimes think some training methods are the SLOWEST way to learn SD.

:)

[Draven]

That's a really good point. I sometimes think some training methods are the SLOWEST way to learn SD.

:)

Well there are two ugly facts about MA, 1) All MA schools are businesses and have a bottom line to reach & 2) Most (not all but most) either fast track unworthy students to get more students or slow track students to keep them paying the bills. I teach SD effect with the basics that way you are aware of the effective SD applications while practicing the basics.