Kenpo... On the Ground

[True2Kenpo]

Fellow Kenpoists,

This has been a topic that I am sure has come up before, but I wanted to pose a question to see where anyone has begun with taking Kenpo techniques to the ground? And what techniques they felt grafted well to a ground situation?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts. Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I agree with you that this is a area that needs to be explored/experimented with by more kenpoist. Kenpo is an incomplete system and one of the few areas that needs work is the ground work. I have never meet Mr Parker but I have read everything that he has written as well as what most of the seniors have written. Through all of my reading one of the many things that I have learned about him was that he would want his art to continue to develpoe and grow and not to become one of the traditional arts that he rebelled against.

With the explosion of BJJ and MMA I think that the natural progression of growth and development of kenpo would be to explore the need for grown work. So the question is who is qualified to be the one to lead us into a new erra and how many people would ***** and complain about it. As I see, as long as the rules, principles, concepts and theories of motion are maintaned the you could develope kenpo grappling. I love to grapple but I do not follow the thinking that "all fights go to the groud". However, some do and WHAT IF?

Manny kenpoist including myself are now cross training in BJJ, Judo and other grownd arts to complete there skills. Is there any of the "whos who/seniors" that want to take on a project like this or is the just to taboo to discuss. :asian:

[Seig]

Once again someone has said Kenpo is an incomplete sysytem. Again, this is just not so. Look at what you said closely, you contradicted yourself. Use your principles, etc. on the ground, all that has changed is the angle you are working from.

[Kempojujutsu]

We do Kempojujutsu it is similar to EPK. This is what I require for Blue Belt and above.
Know 3 Escapes for the mount
3 ways to break the guard
5 guard pass
3 counter to headlock from the ground
2 ways to pass the side mount
3 ways to counter the rear guard
3 ways to counter the rear mount
knee on the stomach postion counter
counter to rear guard with a choke
counters to arm bars
Counters to chokes

I hope this helps
Bob
:asian:

[redfang]

I train Tracy kenpo and we do jujitsu add ons to a variety of techniques as well as shootfighting as taught by Bart Vale (a Kenpo practitioner.) Even without this, I agree that certain principles common to kenpo apply standing or on the ground.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Atlanta_kenpo & True2kenpo

Well, there you go stirring up dissension. ;) As you will see most of the kenpo community doesn't like to think of their SUPERIOR art as having any gaps in it. I'm sure if you were to type in kenpo groundfighting, or something similiar, you would find a number of "Groundfighting threads" that were met with a great deal of resistance and intolerance.

The truth of the matter is, that kenpo does lack a ground curriculum. Am I advocating that everyone go train for years in BJJ, No. BJJ is for the most part a sport art, like judo, but anyone who doubts the lethality or brutality of this particular art doesn't understand it one bit. Until you've had someone tie you up like a pretzel and slap you on the side of your face just to show you how they could be beating your brains in to the ground, you really have no idea. Most people think the art is all about armbars and ankle locks, but the individual who has spent time on the mat realizes that it teaches you how to move on the ground. How to manuever yourself to gain an advantageous position. How to escape various holds that even an untrained fighter has seen on TV. Does this mean that your logic becomes linear? If it does then you shouldn't even be in kenpo.

just because you go to the ground doesn't mean that you have to finish with an armbar. When you break the guard incorporate ballistic striking. Neck crank the motha and punch him in the face until you can get back up. No is saying that you should try to fight on the ground, rather that if something should happen you should at least have some idea of what you're doing. Besides, learning how the different styles teach shooting in can help you avoid being taken down.

Just my, very unpopular, opinion.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
The truth of the matter is, Until you've had someone tie you up like a pretzel and slap you on the side of your face just to show you how they could be beating your brains in to the ground, you really have no idea.

No is saying that you should try to fight on the ground, rather that if something should happen you should at least have some idea of what you're doing until you can get back up.


Some wise thoughts Me thinks!

:asian:

[Iron Dog]

Kenpo Yahoo, your opinion may be unpopular, but it is correct IMO. Same for KempoJutsu. I began (then left for some time) what is now called American Kenpo and in it were many escapes and moves from Ju-Jitsu. When I was in Hawaii, the older Kempo people acknowleged the input from JJ, but preferred to do stand up. As I progress back into American Kenpo I DO see a lot of the older techniques applied differently than before and striking being more important almost a "kick boxing" application if you will. I like that though. When I finally purchased The Journey, I was intrigued by the article about Henry Okazaki and the DanZan influence on stand up arts. Once at a seminar with Professor Wally Jay, he spoke of the early days in Hawaii where many of the Island boys who were into martial arts, did Ju-Jitsu as well. \
Whether you like it or not, there are several seniors out there who are doing ground work. I think the curriculum that KempoJujutsu uses is a wise one. It's non- threating to those who are purists, and it has a practical purpose in todays world, where you just might find youself knocked on your keester with a person or persons pounding on you. Good question, good posts..
Patrick I. D.

[Kempojujutsu]

Today class I grappled with some of my Purple belts. They have been with me less than a year, but have study Tkd before joining my school. I have grappled for about 8 years now. They worked my butt off today. I got submissions from 2 of the 3. The other we called a draw ran out of time and I had things to do. My point is these guys have grappled less than a year and are starting to push me, with my techniques. Not every one is going to be a drunk or inexperince grappler. You may run across someone who knows what they are doing from the ground and you need to practice that.
Bob:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo
I agree with you that this is a area that needs to be explored/experimented with by more kenpoist. Kenpo is an incomplete system and one of the few areas that needs work is the ground work. I have never meet Mr Parker but I have read everything that he has written as well as what most of the seniors have written. Through all of my reading one of the many things that I have learned about him was that he would want his art to continue to develpoe and grow and not to become one of the traditional arts that he rebelled against.

With the explosion of BJJ and MMA I think that the natural progression of growth and development of kenpo would be to explore the need for grown work. So the question is who is qualified to be the one to lead us into a new erra and how many people would ***** and complain about it. As I see, as long as the rules, principles, concepts and theories of motion are maintaned the you could develope kenpo grappling. I love to grapple but I do not follow the thinking that "all fights go to the groud". However, some do and WHAT IF?

Manny kenpoist including myself are now cross training in BJJ, Judo and other grownd arts to complete there skills. Is there any of the "whos who/seniors" that want to take on a project like this or is the just to taboo to discuss. :asian:
Try studying a little more...

To say that traditional MAs have had no refinement over the last few decades is crazy talk.

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Actually American Kenpo IS A INCOMPLETE SYSTEM and if you disagree with me then you disagree with Lee Wedlake. If you would like to argue with him then that is fine with me because he is much more informed then I to debate this issue. I have had this discussion with master Wedlake the last time he was at our school here in hotlanta and if you care to here his explaination then read his fist book kenpo 101.

As far as MY experience goes I have not been exposed to anyone who is teaching kenpo on the ground. So, my previous comment only expresses my experience and exposure. I do not mean to offend anyone and that is surely not my intention. I would however be interested is hearing who is teaching American Kenpo/grappling because I would LOVE to learn. I grew up wrestling and I am in the begining stages of BJJ so I feel comfortable grappling. However, I also agree that BJJ in mainly sport and just about all of their techniques end up in a arm bars/locks and that leaves you exposed so that his buddy can somp a big mud hole in your ass.

So, if anyone could help me out and point me in the right direction to a Parker kenpo instructor who is teaching kenpo grappling I would be very thankful.:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

I'm going to stay out of this one. I've stated my position on this many times and I dont' feel like debating this again. :asian:

[Nightingale]

Kenpo works from the ground. I've seen my instructor use it, and I've seen him teach ground stuff to some of his higher ranking students. Groundfighting can be very different from standing up fighting, partly because its damn hard to execute a stance change or drop your weight when you're sitting on your ass. Your center of balance changes, and so do your points of leverage.

However, kenpo, as KenpoDragon stated, doesn't have a groundfighting CURRICULUM. There's no set list of groundfighting techniques. The principles are there, you just have to go deeper into kenpo to find them. Kenpo is much more than just the techniques.

[Kempojujutsu]

What I can't get is kenpo has techniques for multiple attackers, for stick or club, knife and gun attacks but they don't have them for the ground. To me multiple attackers,clubs, knives and gun defense are more unpredicable then grappling on the ground. Sure some of the techniques will work on the ground. But why not have a curriculum dealing with the ground?
Bob :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
What I can't get is kenpo has techniques for multiple attackers, for stick or club, knife and gun attacks but they don't have them for the ground. Why not have a curriculum dealing with the ground? Bob :asian:


Don't think that Ed Parker didn't realize this. With individuals in his world such as championship bodybuilders, Bruce Lee, Wally Jay, Gene LaBelle and others, ground fighting was not overlooked.

However, at the time, in the early development of American Kenpo there was a conscious effort to avoid to some degree "going to the ground". The priority in self defense is NOT to go to the ground and become vulnerable to additional attacks from a difficult posture. This sort of training was designed to be executed and developed by the advanced student.

It was viewed as something that was not wanted by the public at that time (not that it was overlooked as a need) and so there was not a pressing necessity to sculpt out a specific curriculum for wrestling within the current curriculum.

Even the techniques you mention are just hinted upon and by no means are a complete curriculum for guns, knives, clubs or multiple attacks. All these categories have just a few techniques to build upon for the advanced student to continue to develop a better understanding and discover further material to practice.

Several Kenpo Instructors have material that is excellent on the topic of groundwork and IS a part of their organizations framework.

:asian:

[Eggman]

I dont know about anyone else, but here in miami if you end up on the ground during a fight you will be the guest of honor at a boot party. My philosophy is why not practice what will keep you on your feet.

[Ginsu]

I have seen this conversation before and I always find it interesting that people always want to say that Kenpo does not work on the ground or is incomplete.

I do agree that yes there are no set techniques that start in what people would believe is a good ground fighting position, or from a mount position.

I also think that if people want to train in another art to learn more then that is great as you can never learn to much. What I find to be sad however is that many of these people that run off to train in something else say they are doing that because they can't find or make their Kenpo work when putting themselves into this what if position.

Now to explain the reason I find this sad has nothing to do with the people, but that they have not had the opportunity to see or explore Kenpo in what many would consider a ground situation. I have had the opportunity to see my instructor and a handful of senior high level instructors discuss this subject and also work some of this and it is extremely educational.

As for Kenpo being stagnet or needing to grow (yes I know kinda of two subjects) remember as Mr Conatser said ealier I believe the techniques are just a base that we all have to go from. The problem is not that Mr. Parker is gone or there is no one to lead or that Kenpo is stagnet, the problem is that many of us are only looking at one picture now instead of the big one and saying that all the techniques and the system is stagnet and that it is the bible that everything must be done a certain way.

Instead of seeing the system for what it is. A powerful set of basics that give us all a base system to work from and learn and then when you have the system thru Black you then have a base to expand on. What we have in American kenpo is large amount of basics (including our techniques) and when you have that then you can let the animal loose that you have been training and that is how Kenpo will always grow. Not with people saying we need to change this or that technique or alter the basics which give a base to be creative from.

Ok so those are just some thoughts some will agree some will not, some will become angry with me for just some words on a forum. However take it for what is worth to you, if that is something, then great, if that is nothing then at least have a nice day and remember you are only as happy as you allow yourself to be.

Ginsu

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpo Yahoo is right. Kenpo does NOT teach grappling on the ground.

Kenpo's ground techniques work OK when your opponent is up and you are down and want to get up again.

Kenpo ground techniques work OK when both you and your attacker are on the ground and you are both trying to get up.

Kenpo ground techniques do NOT work very well when both you and your opponent are on the ground and your opponent is trying to keep you there. Kenpo has almost no defense against ground grappling where you are pinned and need to escape.

Anyone who believes Kenpo is effective against a grappler when both are on the ground needs to try rolling with an experienced grappler.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Anyone who believes Kenpo is effective against a grappler when both are on the ground needs to try rolling with an experienced grappler.


:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:

[Eggman]

i have had opportunities to grapple some well trained individuals. Realizing that being on the ground is not the place for me, i would pinch nerves, bite arms, poke eyes and carpes testes. No grappler in the world can withstand the old grap, twist, pull on the nether regions. For you non believers that is kenpo. Kenpo has not only taught me to react to situations in the ideal phase but also in the non-ideal situation of being mounted on the ground. It has given me the targets and the weapons to get the job done but not necessarily the means. Training outside of the ideal will give more spontaneous responses irregardless of body position.

[KanoLives]

I don't know everything but I do know this, if I am taken to the ground in a fight or a fight I am in goes to the ground I am doing whatever it takes to get out of the situation and this goes for stand up fighting too. If the guy tries slappin me in an arm lock or choke or whatever on the ground I'm not in the UFC or Pride and I follow no rules, I'm gonna rip at that SOB's eyes, throat, nuts, or whatever I can get a hand or mouth. Yes MOUTH. I'll bite the SOB. And that's what I learn from my training in Kempo YOU DO WHAT YOU NEED TO SURVIVE. I'm lettin the animal in me come out and I'm goin caveman style. So go ahead and take me to the ground but if any part of you is in close on me while you're tryin to slap a arm bar or choke on me I'm gonna do whatever I can and I don't need to study BJJ or whatever to learn how to take a good chunk of flesh outta somebody's body. And that's the way I feel on this subject.

:soapbox:

:asian:

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Eggman
i have had opportunities to grapple some well trained individuals. Realizing that being on the ground is not the place for me, i would pinch nerves, bite arms, poke eyes and carpes testes. No grappler in the world can withstand the old grap, twist, pull on the nether regions. For you non believers that is kenpo. Kenpo has not only taught me to react to situations in the ideal phase but also in the non-ideal situation of being mounted on the ground. It has given me the targets and the weapons to get the job done but not necessarily the means. Training outside of the ideal will give more spontaneous responses irregardless of body position.

Glad to see I'm not the only one that feels this way. LOL I must have been typing when you posted Eggman. Ya know what they say about great minds. :rofl:

[Elfan]

The base of an art for practical self defense should be staying on your feet and striking with your hands.

Does EPAK circa 1991 have a ground curiculm, no.

Do any of the principles of motion, self defense, logic, change on the ground? No.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Chinese Kempo Al:

You make several good points. However, all Kenpo people would benefit by understanding grappling techniques. Many of Kenpo's techniques such as grabbing, striking, biting, etc. can be easily neutralized by a good grappler.

In Kenpo we learn to block and check a variety of strikes to protect ourselves. In grappling, you learn to protect yourself from close-quarter strikes and grabs that are not part of the Kenpo repertoire. You also learn to attack limbs and necks that are not protected from these same close-quarter positions. Many Kenpo strikes and techniques also expose the striker to submission holds. For instance, striking from atop the guard could expose Kenpoists to arm-bars and triangle chokes.

Grappling teaches you to close gaps. Gaps are necessary to execute strikes in Kenpo. Should a Kenpoist miss the opportunity to strike and wind up in a tight grip with no room to strike or bite, then there are no Kenpo techniques that can help.

Kenpoists can only benefit by understanding principles, positions, attacks, and counters in a ground situation that are outside of our standard repertoire and experience.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Elfan:

I suggest that the principles do change on the ground. Please see my post immediately above.

I also suggest that the Universal Pattern could be enhanced to cover ground defenses. There are two areas to enhance:

1) The Universal Pattern only touches the groud at one point. I suggest that the pattern should be pyramid shaped touching the ground in several places. Think about it. You stand on two feet, but your pattern of movement only has one contact point with the ground. Two opponents stand on four feet with four contact points on the ground. If one or more opponents goes to the ground, then there are more than four points on the ground.

2) Many grappling movements are executed by sliding hands or knees across the body. These movements are closer to the center of the pattern than any currently represented. I suggest there should be another circle around the core of the pattern to illustrate these moves.

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Chinese Kempo Al:

You make several good points. However, all Kenpo people would benefit by understanding grappling techniques. Many of Kenpo's techniques such as grabbing, striking, biting, etc. can be easily neutralized by a good grappler.

In Kenpo we learn to block and check a variety of strikes to protect ourselves. In grappling, you learn to protect yourself from close-quarter strikes and grabs that are not part of the Kenpo repertoire. You also learn to attack limbs and necks that are not protected from these same close-quarter positions. Many Kenpo strikes and techniques also expose the striker to submission holds. For instance, striking from atop the guard could expose Kenpoists to arm-bars and triangle chokes.

Grappling teaches you to close gaps. Gaps are necessary to execute strikes in Kenpo. Should a Kenpoist miss the opportunity to strike and wind up in a tight grip with no room to strike or bite, then there are no Kenpo techniques that can help.

Kenpoists can only benefit by understanding principles, positions, attacks, and counters in a ground situation that are outside of our standard repertoire and experience.

I understand your point but please help me a little more. I can't think of any submission move that does not require a grappler to get in close and be open to strikes. Maybe an ankle lock but even still I have a free leg to wheel at the attacker. And I'm aimin' for the attackers knee in that case. I'm not tryin to take away from any art that focuses on grappling because I am open to what all arts have to offer. As far as needing gaps for strikes I study Chinese Kempo and that is an in close quick strike art. I am learning that I do not need much room between me and an attacker to be effective. And honestly I can't speak for other flavors of Kempo/Kenpo but we do learn some ground techs as well as grappling techs but we would rather not go to the ground nor lock someone up. We are about hitting out targets and getting the hell outta there. Not taking someone to the ground and trying to submit them. But I love the fact that grapplers and wrestlers have the ability to control the other person's body and always look for some pointers and techs in that sense.

:asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Chinese Kempo Al:

I'd love to provide some examples, but I don't think I could adequately explain them on this forum. Somethings have to be seen or experienced. I will suggest that you do the following:

Visit the local BJJ school and take a class or two.

Check out some of the popular books or videos on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where you will see SOME of the techniques that would be very hard for a Kenpoist to defend against.

Some of the best books are available are those by Renzo Gracie (especially Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Theory & Technique) available at Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, and Borders; and books by Gene Simco available at www.jiu-jitsu.net

Some of the best videos available are those by Mario Sperry at http://www.groundfighter.com/

www.Subfighter.com also has excellent wrestling techniques available for free download

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Chinese Kempo Al:

I'd love to provide some examples, but I don't think I could adequately explain them on this forum. Somethings have to be seen or experienced. I will suggest that you do the following:

Visit the local BJJ school and take a class or two.

Check out some of the popular books or videos on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where you will see SOME of the techniques that would be very hard for a Kenpoist to defend against.

Some of the best books are available are those by Renzo Gracie (especially Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Theory & Technique) available at Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, and Borders; and books by Gene Simco available at www.jiu-jitsu.net

Some of the best videos available are those by Mario Sperry at http://www.groundfighter.com/

www.Subfighter.com also has excellent wrestling techniques available for free download

Thanks for the info OFK. I appreciate it.

:asian:

[Kalicombat]

My take on the Kenpo on the Ground topic is this: If you get taken to the ground, you've messed up. That is not to say that it cant happen, and you should have some idea about what to expect if you do go to the ground. However, I am not a believer in spending alot of time training ground work. I wrestled at the YMCA in junior high school, so I have the basics, and I've sparred with Jujitsu guys pretty frequently and alot of them cant handle my strength on the ground. I have a story about a training camp I went to about two years ago. Most of the people there were MMA enthusiasts, and alot of the classes were on some aspect of ground work. After being shown some dismounts, locks, etc., the instructor paired us up and told us to go through the material, pretty standard. My partner was quite skilled on the ground, and I had trouble getting out from under him. He had the disadvantage of having a bush of pit hair. After a few unsuccessful tries at bucking him off, I reached up, curled his long pit hair around my index finger, and pulled like hell. He immediately jumped up off of me, and began rubbing his pit. He said it felt like it was on fire. He asked me where I learned that technique because he had never seen it before. I told him it was a Kenpo Secret, common sense.

Gary Catherman

[Michael Billings]

Orig. Posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

1) The Universal Pattern only touches the groud (ground) at one point. I suggest that the pattern should be pyramid shaped touching the ground in several places. Think about it. You stand on two feet, but your pattern of movement only has one contact point with the ground. Two opponents stand on four feet with four contact points on the ground. If one or more opponents goes to the ground, then there are more than four points on the ground.

The Universal Pattern is a 3-dimensional representation with sub-patterns originating from whatever extremity or body part you wish to visualize it. Chose whatever part or piece of the pattern you need, triangle, pyramid (4 triangles) or any other base position you chose, say a sphere or circle on the ground and 3 diminsionally including points of origination for you, your weapons or body parts, and your opponent's.

Just a paradigm to analyze motion, whatever part of it works for you is fine, but I see your suggestion within my visualization of the Universal Pattern.

Oss

[rmcrobertson]

"Gaps are necessary to execute strikes in Kenpo. Should a Kenpoist miss the opportunity to strike and wind up in a tight grip with no room to strike or bite, then there are no Kenpo techniques that can help. "

Sorry, but absolutely not. First off, I was taught that kenpo techniques FILL the gaps, which are classified as "dead space," and generally seen as no-nos. Ask Clyde, who has--shall I write, "pointed this out to me," pointedly--more than twice. Second off, the techniques covering being caught in a "tight grip with no room," start at yellow belt; Grasp of Death, Captured Twigs, would only be the first of very many examples. (Or look at the sequence Scraping Hooves-Repeated Devastation--Twirling Sacrifice.) The trick of course is to prevent the grip, or grasp, or choke or whatever from fully maturing...not always easy, but there is always, always someplace to go short of the moment in which the grip, or grasp or whatever is fully locked in. And then, if that happens, I doubt very much that anything--BJJ specifically included--is gonna help. You're hosed, and that's it.

This is why, where I study at least, there's always been some ground stuff--it's already in the mix. And yes, it gets practiced. Not as much as it should, but then what does?

I also really wonder about the idea behind all this, which I take to be the idea that if I just learn enough different stuff, I'll become invulnerable...

Thanks,
Robert

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: Thanks for the post. I don't believe that if we just learn more stuff we will become invulnerable. Just the opposite. I believe that too many of us feel like we are invulnerable when in fact none of us are. Earlier this year I started training in BJJ and it really fills some gaps in my Kenpo. BJJ has been a real eye opener for me. I love and respect Kenpo, but think that the BJJ folks know some stuff that we don't. I think we all benefit from cross-training and an open mind.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Robert: Thanks for the post. I don't believe that if we just learn more stuff we will become invulnerable. Just the opposite. I believe that too many of us feel like we are invulnerable when in fact none of us are. Earlier this year I started training in BJJ and it really fills some gaps in my Kenpo. BJJ has been a real eye opener for me. I love and respect Kenpo, but think that the BJJ folks know some stuff that we don't. I think we all benefit from cross-training and an open mind.

To be honest, there's nothing in BJJ that we don't have, it's a matter of whether or not you've learned it in the application. They do things on the ground you may not have seen before, they may even apply it differently, but I believe everything I've seen them do, and I've done, is in our curriculum, if you know where to look, and more importantly, who's showing you where. I've been very lucky to have one of Mr. Parker's more brilliant students showing me and feel incredibly silly when he shows me an application standing up that I know works on the ground but was to blind to see it at the time. I don't see the gap myself because I also know the limitations of both arts, at least dimensionally speaking, ie. Height, width, depth, and time, and have taken that into consideration.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[rmcrobertson]

I don't think I'll pursue this very much further, because I think that it'll be enough to make my points clear here:

First, this "closed-mindedness," works in a lot of different ways. One of the ways it works is in the unwillingness to open the mind to what is "in," kenpo already. Sometimes, this is due to--well--inadequate teaching. (I've been lucky: I have lots of folks around who know more than I do, so my screwups as a teacher are often compensated.) Sometimes, it's due to our failures as students--we can't see what's there "in," kenpo until we go somewhere else, and then may very well get so enthused (perhaps because the training situation's better for any number of reasons?) that we never look back.

Those gaps, in other words, come out of teachers and ourselves at least as much as they come out of problems with kenpo itself. But, another argument to get into would concern the politics of kenpo, which do seem to me to be produced in part by a) the system, b) its founders' legacy.

As for the fantasy of invulnerability--basically, what I'm talking about is the constant haring about from system to system to system, each new one jusstified because of its filling gaps, or being superior, or providing something missing. I think that, in the end, this is powered by a dream that some day, all the holes and all the insufficiences (themselves, I suspect, not really there in the curriculum but in ourselves in the first place) are filled. Et voila, l'invulnerabilite.

Yes, I know. Keep the mind open. Sure, fine, OK, absolutely. But does "keep the mind open," really mean, "I've exhausted the knowledge of kenpo, so I need to move on?" Or does it mean, "I think I've exhausted the knowledge of kenpo, so I need to re-examine myself and my training?" Intellectually speaking, anyway, I've stayed "in" kenpo because of its extraordinary complexity and its bottomlessness...

In other words, never keep your mind so open that your brain falls out. Thanks for the discussion, OFK. But I disagree.

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I suggest that the principles do change on the ground. Please see my post immediately above.

Posture... balance... relaxation... hmm those seem the same to me.

Allow me to clarify though. Just because "Joe Kenpo" intellecually understands the larger generalized principle of posture doesn't mean that he is able to to apply it. He needs to train posture when solving problems caused by differnt attitudes, environments, ranges, positions, manuvers, targets, weapons, angles, cover... etc.

Does that make sense?

[M F]

This thread is causing me to think. Good points made by everyone. Thanks guys. To my point.


1) The Universal Pattern only touches the groud at one point.

The Universal pattern that you seem to be speaking of is a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional concept. The UP can be referenced from any part of your body. (or your opponents) Look at the UP only as a circle, as represented in the patch. Lay it flat on the ground. Now it touches the ground in an infinite number of places. Look a little closer at the UP. There is much more than the two dimensions you seem to be aware of.

[Seig]

I've seen and read a lot of comments here, some I agree with, some I don't. To say that to disagree with one individual is to say that I disagree with a master; fine, I disagree with him. The bottom line is this, we all have a similiar base to work from, whether we be 32-24-16 tech systems. Where we go once we have established our base is largely up to the individual practitioner. If you feel you need to go to BJJ, then that may be right for you. Let me ask a simple question, how many of you that teach, teach a break fall to students learning Dance of Death? How many of you see the relevance of that question? Every thing we teach leads into something else. How many of us have learned everything there is to learn in Kenpo? If we have not, then how can we possibly say it is incomplete?:asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

OK. I will admit that I have not learned everything there is in Kenpo. Although, I have been doing Kenpo on and off for 30 years and got my 3rd Black in 1993. However, the belief that there is nothing that is not included in Kenpo is not right.

This is the same belief as people who claim that everything anyone needs to know is in the Bible. While most of us can agree that the Bible is the most important book that will ever be, and that there is more truth and wisdom in the Bible than anywhere else, most of us will not agree that everything that can be known or needs to be known is contained in the Bible. There is no book we should read more often than the Bible, but the Bible is not the only book we should read. In this regard, I feel the same way about Kenpo as I do about the Bible.

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...no, it ain't.

Most of what is in the Bible is by definition incapable of being demonstrated.

So far, I haven't seen anything--again, I specifically include ground fighting--mentioned or discussed that I haven't found "in," kenpo, demonstrated and explained as part of the "system," and its intellectual structure. If your experience is otherwise, well, what can I tell ya?

Sure, I could work this stuff more. Who couldn't? But as far as being a part of the system--yeah, I've seen people in kenpo who've brought out some aspect that's usually left alone, because of some training they've done elsewhere.

But I think Seig's right. Sure, training must be focused--and that means, "leaving out," some things. It doesn't mean they're absent. An example would be gun techs--there're only four in the strict curriculum (in part because you're crazy to use empty hands against guns), but others can be stitched together. And the Seig example was excellent--IF you do the dummying for "Dance of Death," learn to breakfall or learn to get by without some of those memories and motor skills. And if you look at the extension (another reason not to trim out the "useless" extensions), it's a whole little seminar in dealing with somebody on the ground.

It strikes me as an article of faith, also, that somewhere, somehow, if we just try another system, all those holes will magically get filled. And I stick by the idea that if you're training something you like, cool beans...especially if it gives you a way to recognize, from that "outside," what was "inside," kenpo all along. Just don't assume that some of us are idiots because we learn what we want--and need--to learn, within kenpo.

But then too, it's arguable that there is no "outside," kenpo.

Robert

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: We could go on arguing about this forever. But let's not. We've chosen our paths. I hope our paths both take us where we want to go. It seems ultimately that we both really want the same thing.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

i have had opportunities to grapple some well trained individuals. Realizing that being on the ground is not the place for me, i would pinch nerves, bite arms, poke eyes and carpes testes. No grappler in the world can withstand the old grap, twist, pull on the nether regions.


Wow, ignorance abounds. If you can do these things what is to stop your opponent from doing these things back? Grappling is not simply about armbars and leg locks. It is about fighting for and maintaing a superior position. If I can create a superior position and you bite me to get out, sure as God made little green apples, I'm gonna pound your face into the ground. It takes zero skill to poke someone in the eyes or grab the testicles, yet in most instances it requires you to misalign yourself leaving you wide open.

I'm sure everyone has heard the old saying that kenpo has everything if you're just patient and willing to learn. What a croc of crap. So how many years do I need to be AT the art before I learn practical groundfighting? 10, 15, 20, 40? Gimme a break. I'm all about refinement of my art, but MOST of the KENPO groundfighters are incompetent at best and wouldn't last against someone with a true knowledge of grappling. A lot can be said for stopping the initial attack, which in a perfect world is ideal, but it sure would suck to find yourself on your back knowing that you only have to wait 10 more years to unlock the kenpo secrets that could save you today.

I re-submit the live television broadcast of Ed Parker performing a technique on Frank Trejo on some guys T.v. show. Mr. Parker stumbles and inadvertently ends up on the ground. If the father of American kenpo had bad days and ended up on the ground, why would you think you were impervious to this?

just food for thought.

[Kempojujutsu]

Couple of you have mention about striking at the eyes when in a grappling situation. I have roll with a couple of people who have done or tried to do this to me. I just closed my eyes. I can still grapple with my eyes closed. My point is if all you think you need to do is strike some grappler in the eyes, better think again. Grapplers are also very good at controling arms to prevent you from striking at them.
Bob :asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
Couple of you have mention about striking at the eyes when in a grappling situation. I have roll with a couple of people who have done or tried to do this to me. I just closed my eyes. I can still grapple with my eyes closed. My point is if all you think you need to do is strike some grappler in the eyes, better think again. Grapplers are also very good at controling arms to prevent you from striking at them.
Bob :asian:

The one guy I rolled with left himself open to eye
gouges, and bites, big time.

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo


I'm all about refinement of my art, but MOST of the KENPO groundfighters are incompetent at best and wouldn't last against someone with a true knowledge of grappling.


You and I apparently don't know the same kenpoists.

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Wow, ignorance abounds. If you can do these things what is to stop your opponent from doing these things back? Grappling is not simply about armbars and leg locks. It is about fighting for and maintaing a superior position. If I can create a superior position and you bite me to get out, sure as God made little green apples, I'm gonna pound your face into the ground. It takes zero skill to poke someone in the eyes or grab the testicles, yet in most instances it requires you to misalign yourself leaving you wide open.

I'm sure everyone has heard the old saying that kenpo has everything if you're just patient and willing to learn. What a croc of crap. So how many years do I need to be AT the art before I learn practical groundfighting? 10, 15, 20, 40? Gimme a break. I'm all about refinement of my art, but MOST of the KENPO groundfighters are incompetent at best and wouldn't last against someone with a true knowledge of grappling. A lot can be said for stopping the initial attack, which in a perfect world is ideal, but it sure would suck to find yourself on your back knowing that you only have to wait 10 more years to unlock the kenpo secrets that could save you today.

just food for thought.
Although I would try to be more diplomatic (after my brief vacation) I totaly agree with your sentiments. We cross train BJJ in our school ( which the local instructor has decided not to call Kenpo because we just arent fitting the profile anymore ) I used to believe I could minor move my way out of a grappling situation too but Ive been tapped out enough times to rethink that idea. I think that Kenpo compliments BJJ and does not conflict with it. This is just my humble opinion. (no stalkers please)

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpo works on the ground against untrained grapplers. But a guy with 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years Kenpo experience will not win on the ground against someone with similar grappling experience. Most grapplers can strike from the ground as well as Kenpo practitioners.
Kenpo does not make you invulnerable!

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kenpo works on the ground against untrained grapplers. But a guy with 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years Kenpo experience will not win on the ground against someone with similar grappling experience. Most grapplers can strike from the ground as well as Kenpo practitioners.
Kenpo does not make you invulnerable!

OFK... Your Olympian Pontifications are occasionally accurate, but often times ill-founded... The one thing I can agree with however, is that Kenpo does not make you invulnerable. :lol:

J/K Bro! But you probably could have left all of it out except the last sentence. :asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sigung: I am glad you agree with me about the invulnerability thing. I am also glad you agree with my occasionally accurate but often ill-founded olympian pontifications. You know, I never thought of my pontifications as olympian before, but now that you mention it...

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kenpo works on the ground against untrained grapplers. But a guy with 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years Kenpo experience will not win on the ground against someone with similar grappling experience. Most grapplers can strike from the ground as well as Kenpo practitioners.
Kenpo does not make you invulnerable!

No doubt! But by the same token, if he spent all his time working
on grappling, he probably couldn't compete standing up against
the kenpoist. And your example doesn't work if he's not as
conditioned as the kenpoist and it depends on the rules of the
engagement. The UFC is NOT the best example.

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Kirk
No doubt! But by the same token, if he spent all his time working
on grappling, he probably couldn't compete standing up against
the kenpoist. And your example doesn't work if he's not as
conditioned as the kenpoist and it depends on the rules of the
engagement. The UFC is NOT the best example.

Kirk,

The insight here would be to not fight your opponent's fight. If he comes at you to grapple then don't grapple. That is not as easily done as said. However.... Anytime you involve yourself in a confrontation, and do not make the opponent fight against your strengths, then you are probably in trouble almost immediately, if not sooner.

This may, in fact, be the missing part of the equation. :lol:

Dan

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Sigung: I am glad you agree with me about the invulnerability thing. I am also glad you agree with my occasionally accurate but often ill-founded olympian pontifications. You know, I never thought of my pontifications as olympian before, but now that you mention it...

:asian: :lol: :asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk: I agree with you. A BJJ guy who never trains standup is very possibly going to be going to the ground by himself and not getting up!

But let's look at how long it takes to get a Black Belt in Kenpo: 4-5 years if you train daily and have phenomenal talent and athletic ability. 6 - 8 years for most dedicated Kenpoists. 8-10 years to those with less natural talent/athletic ability and/or with less time to commit. You will spend virtually all of your time during those 5-10 years training standup unless your school has gone beyond the Kenpo curriculum to incorporate grappling.

Let's look at how long it takes to get a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: about the same as Kenpo. The difference is that almost all BJJ Black Belts will have spent a small but significant portion of their training on Vale Tudo training including standup strikes, kicks, clinches, takedowns, and strikes on the ground.

Put a Kenpo and BJJ blackbelt of equal size, condition, and ability against each other: The Kenpo guy will likely win standup, but if it goes to the ground, the Kenpo guy will be toast. That is the lesson of the early UFC. Many Kenpo schools have embraced this reality and have supplemented their curriculum with BJJ or submission wrestling.

If you personally rolled with a BJJ guy and thought you could gouge, poke or bite him, then your eyes were open and he could gouge, poke or bite you. He just chose not to just as you choose not to gouge, poke or bite when you spar fellow kenpoists.

[Kempojujutsu]

Point is if you don't practice any ground fighting material at all, because you feel you wouldn't end up on the ground. Then why did you take up martial arts. was it to insure you could defend yourself or be capable of defending yourself. How do you know if you are capable of defending yourself from a stand up position. You practice techniques to enable yourself to defend against any possible stand up attack. Back in the early 50's and 60's Judo and jujutsu had tournaments against each other. Back then Judo was kicking jujutsu ass all over the place. Was it because judo took out all the deadly techniques. No Was it because they had less techniques. No Was it because they grappled No. The reason they live sparred with each other. The exact reason BJJ does so good. Because they practice with a partner who is trying not to let them get a certain technique on them. To me it is easier to get into a standup grappling position, do a takedown, get a superior ground postion and beat the crap out of them. Then it is to try and punch and kick and keep them back away from me.
Bob :asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Right on Kempo Jujitsu.

A real key to this debate is this: Are Kenpo ground techniques and principles effective against BJJ grappling techniques? Those who've never tried BJJ say yes. Those who have say no.

You've hit on the other key to this debate: Your point about live sparring is also lost on those who've never done it. Running techniques in a line is not live sparring. Point sparring with safety gear is not live sparring. Live sparring is indeed the BJJ advantage. That is more important than the specific techniques and whether the fight is vertical or horizontal.

[Touch Of Death]

The problem with kenpoists is that they choose to ignore their own logic. The eight considerations clearly state that position comes before manuever and target; so, the idea that you can work those ideas against a positional fighter is folly. Yea, you can get to him at his critical distance but as any boxer knows when you sick of getting hit you just close the distance. good luck on that single shot knock out fellow kenpoists. I'm working on it myself but I, at least, am developing a plan B.

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
The problem with kenpoists is that they choose to ignore their own logic. The eight considerations clearly state that position comes before manuever and target; so, the idea that you can work those ideas against a positional fighter is folly. Yea, you can get to him at his critical distance but as any boxer knows when you sick of getting hit you just close the distance. good luck on that single shot knock out fellow kenpoists. I'm working on it myself but I, at least, am developing a plan B.

So... You're saying that you can't strike effectively in close? Used to be an old Kenpo axiom... "If you're close enough, there's room enough"... Guess folks aren't teaching that nowadays. We also used to be called the Kings of Phone Booth fighting... Wonder how many can remember phone booths? :rofl:

[rmcrobertson]

First off, let me write it again: the problem I have with all this hooraw about Brazilian jiu-jitsu isn't that it doesn't work. And it isn't that I'm claiming to know absolutely everything I ever need to know. It's that I've no interest in haring off after every new style that comes my way, so that I can fill in the gaps of my skills and someday--mirabile dictu!--reach that point of invulnerability. What'll it be after BJJ? Kali for knives, escrima for sticks, something else for guns? A Star Wars system in the backyard, for those North Korean missile attacks we're all so vulnerable to? All the aluminum foil in the world, in case the sun goes nova?

At some point, ya gotta accept your own vulnerability. Running around to patch every single hole--it just isn't rational, for nearly all of us. What we can reasonably do--beyond keeping water and food and a pipe wrench in the house, in case the Big One hits--is study a strong martial arts system and train hard.

Before position, it's worth noting about those considerations of combat, come a) acceptance, b) environmental awareness, and c) range. Why in the hell am I going to stand in closish and square off against some guy? So I can get slammed on my back? Is grappling supposed to be a common mugger's tactic? Yes, absolutely, Tank Abbott's gonna hand me my lunch. Yes, absolutely--and studying BJJ (I still say, do something about that abbreviation) is not going to change that fact for a second.

I might note that I cannot for the life of me figure out what that, "one hit KO," bidness means. It certainly doesn't fit with any kenpo techniques I've ever seen...which are, philosophically, built around always having a backup approach to self-defense.

I agree with Sigung 86, perhaps because I spent a significant portion of last night working the phone-booth-range aspects of Gift of Destiny in Mr. Tatum's Wednesday night class...the previous week, we'd worked some of the chin na aspects of the outset of Short 3, after working through warm-ups that included some mods/grapplings for Dance of Death...or so I thought, since I guess I couldn't actually have been doing this stuff at all, what with the way kenpo doesn't include any of it...musta been the heat...

Come on, guys. Nobody's putting down your studies--at least, I'm not. But I am getting a little tired of being told that I'm not studying what I am studying, or that I have to run off and study something else because somebody else is, or that I'm being blindly religious...

But anyway, it's at least an interesting argument.

[Touch Of Death]

Oh, they are teaching it all right, it just doesn't seem to work against thos BJJ guys. Go figure. Are you suggesting the eight considerations are wrong or am I just not reading it right?

[rmcrobertson]

If this was a response to what I just wrote, you're not reading it right.

[Touch Of Death]

Actualy I was posting to sigung at the same time you posted and it beat mine. Sorry for the confusion.

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Actualy I was posting to sigung at the same time you posted and it beat mine. Sorry for the confusion.

T.O.D... I don't worry about intellectualizing a fight to death. I don't really know the eight considerations you speak of... I'm old school Tracys from 1972. Or perhaps I know the eight considerations in some other fashion, but the intellectualization that you speak of becomes highly irrelevent in the heat of the combat. If someone grabs, gropes, hugs, chokes or in some other fashion latches on to you and they do not, at some point, draw back a couple of bloody nubs, then you:

A) have not been taught the Jitsu aspects of Kenpo or American Kenpo - They are there... Trust me... Larry Tatum knows them... He hints at them in some of his tapes. LOL! Go look! Many other instructors of both Tracy's and EPAK, alas, do not know enough to teach them.

Or ...

B) are wanting someone to spoon feed you answers. Thus it is easier to go to other people seeking answers that are usually within you, if you have but the patience, and ability to think and visualize and carry to a logical conclusion. No offense to anyone here, most particularly, Doctor Robert, whom I respect, but Edmund K. Parker did not have a corner on that market Bro. Nor did Bruce Lee. If you are looking for Sub-Level 4 goodies, you will need a qualified instructor, for which I would highly recommend Doctor Chapél or one of his protegé, if they are available.

But ... It is there... I am just disappointed that whomsoever is teaching you, is not teaching, at least, the most facile perspective of grappling defense.

No offense is implied or intended by this post, but as a famous detective said, "When you have eliminated all else, what is left must be the truth".

Dan

[Touch Of Death]

Well, you know me. I'm just working off all that outdated information. Dominant position is old news I guess. I had a sneeking suspicion my instructor was giving us bad dope.

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Well, you know me. I'm just working off all that outdated information. Dominant position is old news I guess. I had a sneeking suspicion my instructor was giving us bad dope.

Bro! I think you are taking offense where none was meant. You're the one that said what he was teaching you wasn't working... Not me... I simply drew inference from the data you provided.

Sorry you took offense.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Sigung86
T.O.D... I don't worry about intellectualizing a fight to death. I don't really know the eight considerations you speak of... I'm old school Tracys from 1972. Or perhaps I know the eight considerations in some other fashion, but the intellectualization that you speak of becomes highly irrelevent in the heat of the combat. If someone grabs, gropes, hugs, chokes or in some other fashion latches on to you and they do not, at some point, draw back a couple of bloody nubs, then you:

A) have not been taught the Jitsu aspects of Kenpo or American Kenpo - They are there... Trust me... Larry Tatum knows them... He hints at them in some of his tapes. LOL! Go look! Many other instructors of both Tracy's and EPAK, alas, do not know enough to teach them.

Or ...

B) are wanting someone to spoon feed you answers. Thus it is easier to go to other people seeking answers that are usually within you, if you have but the patience, and ability to think and visualize and carry to a logical conclusion. No offense to anyone here, most particularly, Doctor Robert, whom I respect, but Edmund K. Parker did not have a corner on that market Bro. Nor did Bruce Lee. If you are looking for Sub-Level 4 goodies, you will need a qualified instructor, for which I would highly recommend Doctor Chapél or one of his protegé, if they are available.

But ... It is there... I am just disappointed that whomsoever is teaching you, is not teaching, at least, the most facile perspective of grappling defense.

No offense is implied or intended by this post, but as a famous detective said, "When you have eliminated all else, what is left must be the truth".

Dan

My exposure to David German was a wake up call for me, it was many years ago in Crete at the Gathering of Masters. I was his UKE for his seminars and can say I've only been hit as hard as that with so little effort by Larry. Not only that, his Chi Na skills are impeccable and he had me doing the Kenpo Puppet Show in no time. His grappling skills are beyond reproach as well and I'm looking forward to training with him again in the very near future. Larry does hint at his skills in this realm on the videos, and goes more indepth at the studio with the Wed. nite classes but we don't base our entire art on that aspect, it is but another portion of curriculum. I've found that rolling on the floor grappling has increased my skills in the standup region. I'm no slouch on the ground, but I'd much rather stand up myself.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Bro! I think you are taking offense where none was meant. You're the one that said what he was teaching you wasn't working... Not me... I simply drew inference from the data you provided.

Sorry you took offense.
Actualy I don't take offense. I used to believe exactly what you are preaching( minus the Larry Tatum part) It is just that we wanted to look outside the box and find out what is out there. Lets just pretend that you ended up on the ground because of what ever reason.(it was dark, you slipped, gravel, Ice, snow, uneven terrain) and you got this big guy on your chest and rather than giving you targets he is on you like a slug on a garbage scow. Why not ask the guys that train for this and only this what the best course of action might be? They are not a bunch of idiots waiting to be enlightened by master such and such of the branch devidian sub section level 7 kenpo or what ever. They work this question and only this question, where as the average Kenpo guy spends less than 10% of his time at best working ground techniques ( and thats being generous) All I'm suggesting is that you attend a seminar some time. Yes its all Kenpo on different dimensions but these guys can show you the ins and outs better than just about any one right now and its all easy to learn. Work with me here my brother.:soapbox:

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson


Before position, it's worth noting about those considerations of combat, come a) acceptance, b) environmental awareness, and c) range. Why in the hell am I going to stand in closish and square off against some guy? So I can get slammed on my back? Is grappling supposed to be a common mugger's tactic? Yes, absolutely, Tank Abbott's gonna hand me my lunch. Yes, absolutely--and studying BJJ (I still say, do something about that abbreviation) is not going to change that fact for a second.

I might note that I cannot for the life of me figure out what that, "one hit KO," bidness means. It certainly doesn't fit with any kenpo techniques I've ever seen...which are, philosophically, built around always having a backup approach to self-defense.

I agree with Sigung 86, perhaps because I spent a significant portion of last night working the phone-booth-range aspects of Gift of Destiny in Mr. Tatum's Wednesday night class...the previous week, we'd worked some of the chin na aspects of the outset of Short 3, after working through warm-ups that included some mods/grapplings for Dance of Death...or so I thought, since I guess I couldn't actually have been doing this stuff at all, what with the way kenpo doesn't include any of it...musta been the heat...


But anyway, it's at least an interesting argument. [/B]

Robert,
First of all let me say that up here in Spokane falls we don't have any Tatum schools. We got your Sepulvida guys( en-mass ) we got your T-Dragon guys, we got you Mitchel's Kenpo, and then you have us. We've encorporated Krav Maga, Muiy Thai, Kenpo, and of course BJJ (give me an alternative abrev and I may consider using it.) I thought the whole Idea of Kenpo was to be a dynamic and modern art. With that being said the world seems to be honig up on its positional skills. You owe it to your self to take a look at what developments are taking place. I can't event begin to know what kinds of ground work stuff you know so I won't suggest that Mr. Tatum and his guys haven't fully prepared you. The guy that runs our school is really the one introducing most of the cross traing Ideas my instructor is traveling the world teaching original kenpo ideas and I swear there is not a single grappling move that BJJ has that he will not explain in kenpo terms. I'm sure Mr. Tatum sees that world in the same way. With that I'm trying to say that BJJ is a chance to focus on just the positional aspecs of "your" art with out trying to blend skills on all the dimensional stages of action(range).

What coincidence, we also hapen to be working gift of destiny these last few weeks. I would have answered this post earlier but I had to get to class. ( I've skipped to many as a result of this web sight already) I would love to work out with the Tatum guys for a while as I would the Mitchel's and Tracy guys ( which I have in Denver) just to see there vision of the same art but I'm so broke I cant afford to pay attention right now; however, I am still young.
Sean

[Sigung86]

Ahhh.... The picture is now much clearer... A young man out to prosyletize. A world changer... :lol:

But I really don't want to take any BJJ Seminars. There are too many weaknesses in that system too. Like I said before, If I go to the ground, I have more than enough to get back up. I guess I just don't understand the need to call myself a Kenpoist but then run willy-nilly to all these various "other" arts tring to fill in your perceived gaps. If your Kenpo is so inefficient then why do you stay with it? Pull a Bruce Lee. Run all over grabbing from here and there, make a number of block buster hit movies, die, have your friends extrapolate a "non-system" system and have your notes published... You too could be immortal.

Interesting to me that you will jump on a band wagon like BJJ, put down your own art that you haven't had obvious sufficiency in, and in the same virtual breath, attempt to put down something you obviously know nothing about in such a derogatory fashion (Uh... That would be Sub Level 4, and not "Branch Davidian Sub Level 7". Sheesh Lad! If you wish to be insulting you could at least get the name right. )

Nah... If you are going to push an agenda, denigrate an art that you obviously don't know the middle of, much less all of, and put down other folks art in the same breath, you need to do it with a little more suave and debonaire than that to convert most of the people to your Bruce Lee vision.

And with that, I leave Robert to carry on. But it has been interesting. We just don't agree with your vision of what is right, just, and an improvement, and I think both of us could better spend our time.

Thanks,

Dan :asian:

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Sigung86
So... You're saying that you can't strike effectively in close? Used to be an old Kenpo axiom... "If you're close enough, there's room enough"... Guess folks aren't teaching that nowadays. We also used to be called the Kings of Phone Booth fighting... Wonder how many can remember phone booths? :rofl:

I remember phone booths! :D:rofl:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
I remember phone booths! :D:rofl:

Yeah .. superman used to change inside them :p

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Kirk
Yeah .. superman used to change inside them :p

But he doesn't do that anymore...he just runs down the street very fast and strips while he is running. He is just a blur anyway so no one can see him take his clothes off. There is no discretion anymore.....

[rmcrobertson]

No, I don't, "owe it to myself," to take all these other seminars. In the first place, I never went into kenpo to become a fighter in the sense TOD appears to have in mind. In the second, if they're all that easy, what good can they possibly be? And in the third--I know folks won't buy this, but once again--every damn time anybody gets pinned down on concepts and principles, they're, "in," kenpo already. I've seen them; I've worked them; I've been taught them in one form or another. And before anybody revs up, am I arguing that I'm all set to take on, say, the patriarch Helio Gracie? Of course not.

I've simply no intention of spending all my time shopping. Among other things, this detracts from the real and traditional purpose of martial arts--making it easier to sit on the front porch and sip a beverage, reading and admiring the trees...

The one point that I thought was great was the one that resembles something often said about boxing: the boxer's big advantage is that they are deeply, viscerally used to getting hit...in fact, they expect to get hit. But I have to add, that I spend a fair amount of time getting knocked on my proverbial at the studio...and I do know what it's like. Again, does this mean I'm all set for Bart Vale? Of course not, and neither are you. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

I find it interesting that all this Spokane kenpo, "incorporates," all these other styles, including, "Krav Maga." I shall avoid writing anything more, given the patronizing remarks about where I presently train.

But I wonder about marketing the martial arts...

I'm with Sigung; in this case, I'm out.

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
No, I don't, "owe it to myself," to take all these other seminars. In the first place, I never went into kenpo to become a fighter in the sense TOD appears to have in mind. In the second, if they're all that easy, what good can they possibly be? ...

I find it interesting that all this Spokane kenpo, "incorporates," all these other styles, including, "Krav Maga." I shall avoid writing anything more, given the patronizing remarks about where I presently train.

But I wonder about marketing the martial arts...

I'm with Sigung; in this case, I'm out.
Robert first of all I was making light of all these sales pitches of the Tatum or Tracy systems because I don't feel it added any thing to the discussion. I did not mean to offend you but I have a gift. Second I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about the art. As far as Sigung 80 goes assuming that cross training represents a lack of kenpo skills sounds pretty close minded to me but what do I know? I'll keep an eye out for the phone booth muggers though. My instructors and myself make no money from the sale of any BJJ information. I was just trying to point you to take a look. Ignore it if you like; as long as you never have to fight those guys I guess it will never matter. Lastly I said it was easy to learn not easy to use that is up to the practitioner, his abilities, and his attitude... good or bad.
Sean

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Gentlemen: It seems we are rehashing this topic and are frustrated that we cannot change each other's fundamental beliefs about right and wrong (in terms of ground fighting).

Let me offer this token of moderation before my evil personality takes over and starts flaming through the keyboard:

Kenpo is one of the most excellent martial arts systems ever devised. Kenpo theory and analysis is without equal in the martial arts world. Kenpo is perhaps the most comprehensive self-defense systems ever devised.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is also one of the most excellent martial arts systems ever devised. BJJ theory and training methodology is without equal in the martial arts world. BJJ is perhaps the most ring-proven systems ever devised.

Let us spend our time constructively pursuing our training. If we ever have the chance to meet in person, let's make sure to spend time sharing techniques and perspectives and enriching each others study.

That's all the sweetness I can deliver today. My evil personality is about to take over and I must find another forum to troll...

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, not getting into this one any longer.

[MJS]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Ahhh.... The picture is now much clearer... A young man out to prosyletize. A world changer... :lol:

But I really don't want to take any BJJ Seminars. There are too many weaknesses in that system too. Like I said before, If I go to the ground, I have more than enough to get back up. I guess I just don't understand the need to call myself a Kenpoist but then run willy-nilly to all these various "other" arts tring to fill in your perceived gaps. If your Kenpo is so inefficient then why do you stay with it? Pull a Bruce Lee. Run all over grabbing from here and there, make a number of block buster hit movies, die, have your friends extrapolate a "non-system" system and have your notes published... You too could be immortal.

Interesting to me that you will jump on a band wagon like BJJ, put down your own art that you haven't had obvious sufficiency in, and in the same virtual breath, attempt to put down something you obviously know nothing about in such a derogatory fashion (Uh... That would be Sub Level 4, and not "Branch Davidian Sub Level 7". Sheesh Lad! If you wish to be insulting you could at least get the name right. )

Nah... If you are going to push an agenda, denigrate an art that you obviously don't know the middle of, much less all of, and put down other folks art in the same breath, you need to do it with a little more suave and debonaire than that to convert most of the people to your Bruce Lee vision.

And with that, I leave Robert to carry on. But it has been interesting. We just don't agree with your vision of what is right, just, and an improvement, and I think both of us could better spend our time.

Thanks,

Dan :asian:

I've been training in Kenpo for 17 yrs, and from what I've seen, it has no ground work at all. True, BJJ is not the ultimate art, but it does and continues to prove itself on the ground. I've also trained in BJJ for about 10 yrs. I've had some sparring matches in my school where we incorporate grappling. I've had no problem taking any of the other students down and be able to dominate them on the ground.

Its important, in order to be a complete fighter, to be able to fight in all of the ranges of combat. Like I said, after 17 yrs, I have seen more than my share of weakness in Kenpo.

Mike

[Kalicombat]

In my opinion, ground work is only one facet of preperation for a well rounded fighter. I think that it has become blown way out of proportion as far as imiportance however, and having been in quite a few altercations in my life time, very few have ended up "going to the ground". Most of my fights have taken place in bars, alleys, and parking lots of those bars, both as a drunken idiot, and a bouncer, and if it would have gone to the ground, either my opponent or myself would have gotten our heads stomped by either group of friends. Most fights DO NOT END UP in a wrestling match. Go to the ground in a parking lot and you'll be pulling broken beer bottles out of your back, knees, elbows, etc... Most criminals out there, choosing a mark are not going over arm bars in their heads prior to assaulting some one. They are in and out, taking your wallet, bag, car keys, etc..., and the likely hood of them lying in wait to mount someone and perform a key lock or a triangle chock is NILL.
If you are interested in Mixed Martial Art events, then by all means, roll, roll, and roll some more, but if, like me, your main concern for training in kenpo is to do the most damage in the least amount of time, to the nastiest perpetrator out there, ground work should be of minimal concern. There are so many more areas that should take precedenceover groundfighting ie; adrenaline repsonse, conflict avoidance, mental preperation for causing bodily harm to another human, dealing with pain, weapon improvising, environmental awareness, the list goes on and on.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

MJS: You have seen the light. Welcome my brother.

Kalicombat: you are right on--nobody wants to fight on the ground, much better to win standing up. But, if I get knocked down with someone on top, I really do need to know how to defend myself.

[MJS]

Kalicombat- Many good points. Of course, if you find yourself against mult. opps. you will not want to go to the gorund, and it always seems like the is the first thing that every says about grappling. But, the majority of karate students practice in a gi, which is very loose fitting, in bare feet, and on a carpet, wood floor or mat. How many people go outside, train in street clothes? Probably not many. So those fancy high kicks are worthless in jeans, and you might loose footing on the pavement. The idea of going to the ground is not for the bad guy, but the guy defending himself. If you stumble, and end up on the ground, if it means saving my life, I'd roll around on the pavement.

Mike

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...what fancy high kicks in kenpo would these be, exactly?

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
If you are interested in Mixed Martial Art events, then by all means, roll, roll, and roll some more, but if, like me, your main concern for training in kenpo is to do the most damage in the least amount of time, to the nastiest perpetrator out there, ground work should be of minimal concern. There are so many more areas that should take precedenceover groundfighting ie; adrenaline repsonse, conflict avoidance, mental preperation for causing bodily harm to another human, dealing with pain, weapon improvising, environmental awareness, the list goes on and on.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman [/B]

Interesting how the list goes on of things that are more important than the third combat consideration. Conflict avoidance would definantly be a must for the martial artist that refuses to accept the possibility of going to the ground. The Kenpo I take is not about total anihilation or maximum damage inflicted its about ending the fight as quickly as possible with the minimum of force required. So You are on the ground and you got some guy chocking you out with your own arm. Your priorities stated that it was more important to be able to emtionaly handle the pain you want to inflict on him than learning the simple escape; I hope you are kidding. Oh let me guess, If its not complex its not worth learning. I learned that little jewel a few posts ago.

[rmcrobertson]

I will not get further involved in this silly discussion, I will not get further involved in this silly discussion, I will not get further involved in this silly discussion....(imagine me writing this 1000 times, in penance).

[Touch Of Death]

Got ya.

[Kalicombat]

Touch of Death, hmmm,
Ok, well. First, Im not interested in ending a "fight". I dont fight any longer. If you read my post carefully, you'd have seen that most of the fights I have been involved in took place in and around bars. I no longer drink, and have matured considerabley since those days, so I dont find myself in the same predicaments that I once did. I am only interested in eliminating any and all physical threats to my family and myself. If someone is stupid enough to try to take me to the ground, then they have made their mistake, and what ever happens is on them. Im not going to get into a chest pounding thing with you. Its obvious you are a proponent of groundfighting, good for you. I am not. I form my opinions based solely on my experiences, things I have seen, and been a part of. Very, very few of my fights ever ended up on the ground. The ones that did were definetly not anything like you describe as someone choking me out with my own arm, lol.
In my previous post, I was trying to let others that may not have experienced many fights, that groundfighting is not end all of training avenues. It is one of the facets that must be considered to become a well rounded fighter, but not of primary focus. Also, I have know people that did encounter their first violent altercation, and they were not prepared to deal with the aftermath of having felt their opponents blood on their hands. It is not a warm and fuzzy feeling. Alot of skilled martial artists have been lost by this very realization when all they have known is "dojo fights". So, we'll go our seperate ways, agreeing to disagree I suppose on this very drawn out topic. If groundfighting is your thing, good luck. It just happens not to be mine.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

[Fastmover]

First post so take it easy on me!!!

I have been in Kenpo since 1980 and I have trained with Carlos Machado for a couple years. If there is one thing I have learned, the person makes the art and not the other way around. In the end everyone must do what is best for themselves individually.

Personally cross training in BJJ has benefited me greatly. Working on the ground requires that you develope a dynamic understanding of leverage. If you develope this skill by utilizing Kenpo then great. Let me say however that the quick and fast answer to getting yourself out of a ground fight by biting or eye gauging may place you from the frying pan into the fire. If you do not understand how to use leverage to your advantage, the odds are you are going to find yourself in a poor position. Remember if you elect to bite and/or eye gauge, your opponent can elect to do the same thing and if your opponent is a skilled ground fighter he will be doing it from a much better position.

Just my thoughts

JC

[Touch Of Death]

Agreed.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Remember if you elect to bite and/or eye gauge, your opponent can elect to do the same thing and if your opponent is a skilled ground fighter he will be doing it from a much better position.

Yeah, cause Holyfield ... when his ear was bitten off, he didn't
stop fighting and wither around in pain, all he could think about
was biting Tyson's ear off. That's what happens when you're in
intense pain, you logically think to dish it right back out. :rolleyes:

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Kirk
Yeah, cause Holyfield ... when his ear was bitten off, he didn't
stop fighting and wither around in pain, all he could think about
was biting Tyson's ear off. That's what happens when you're in
intense pain, you logically think to dish it right back out. :rolleyes:

:rofl: :rofl:

[Touch Of Death]

Oh, I didn't realize these guys were ground fighters. My bad.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

So Kirk: Your point is that training is really unimportant because biting negates any acquired martial skills? So, is there an art that emphasizes biting techniques? If so, sign me up today.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Oh, I didn't realize these guys were ground fighters. My bad.

Oh .. I didn't realize it was the claim of ground fighters that
they're more impervious to the pain of having flesh ripped from
their bodies! Wow, find me a school here in town, so I can learn
that!

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
So Kirk: Your point is that training is really unimportant because biting negates any acquired martial skills? So, is there an art that emphasizes biting techniques? If so, sign me up today.

No, my point is that when you're rolling around on the floor with
other guys, that leaving your ears exposed to biting is NOT good.
In addition .. saying "oh if you bite my ear off, then I'll just go
ahead and gouge your eyes or bite your ears in kind" is bunk,
unless you lack the brain cells to feel intense pain.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk: a good bite will deter any trained fighter. The argument that a bite could disable a grappler is just as valid as the argument that a bite could stop the world's champion heavyweight boxer or a Kenpo black belt.

As far as defending against a grappler with a bite, if you're thinking of the scene in Enter the Dragon where John Saxon defended against an armbar with a bite, then you are not thinking realistically. In that scene, the grappler should have just picked his leg up and stomped Saxon's face. Good BJJ grapplers probably won't try an armbar in a street-fight -- much more likely to try a choke or to mount & strike.

And, the best BJJ grapplers I've rolled with won't get into a position to get bitten. Look at the main postions of BJJ: the mount, knee on stomach, the guard, the rear mount. When in any of these positions could you bite? Could a Kenpo fighter bite or gouge from underneath the mount? Against a triangle choke inside the guard? Against a choke from the rear mount? Not likely. That is why cross-training is important. That's why MMA fighters cross-train and that is why some of the best Kenpo schools cross-train.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I'm still looking for a copy of the newspaper article, but a few years back this "punk" high school kid started a fight with another high school, a wrestler. The wrestler wasn't any bigger than the other kid. Anyway, the punk kid took the wrestler to the ground and started using every dirty trick in the book. Witnesses said it took a minute or so for the wrestler to regain a top position where they quoted him as saying, "My face is the last thing you are ever going to see." The wrestler then put his thumbs in the other kids eyes rendering him blind for the rest of his life.

While I don't recall what happened afterwards or if there was even a trial, it just goes to show what someone who has the ability to gain superior a position can do.

Some of you guys out there are military buffs. I consider our special forces to be the best trained military forces on the planet. Does this mean they are invincible? Hell No! It simply means that they are incredibly well trained to deal with bad situations that they might find themselves in. Feel free to apply this where ever you see fit. :shrug:

I honestly can't believe you guys are still arguing over this. If you want to know what a true BJJ student is capable of go check out a Machado school or even a Gracie school. If you don't want to, great, train however you want but don't knock it until you've been up against a decent grappler (not some jackass wannabe).

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kirk: a good bite will deter any trained fighter. The argument that a bite could disable a grappler is just as valid as the argument that a bite could stop the world's champion heavyweight boxer or a Kenpo black belt.

That's what I'm saying! The guy that I rolled with was in constant
biting range ... we rolled after he lectured me about the
ineffectiveness of kenpo, and how fighting is "just physics".


Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
As far as defending against a grappler with a bite, if you're thinking of the scene in Enter the Dragon where John Saxon defended against an armbar with a bite, then you are not thinking realistically. In that scene, the grappler should have just picked his leg up and stomped Saxon's face. Good BJJ grapplers probably won't try an armbar in a street-fight -- much more likely to try a choke or to mount & strike.


No .. I'm thinking that a cheek, ear, nose .. whatever's within my
teeth's range. When Holyfield's ear was bitten .. that TIIINY little
piece made him squeal .. he didn't think about about throwing
punching combinations or anything else other than "oh my God
that hurts"


Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

And, the best BJJ grapplers I've rolled with won't get into a position to get bitten. Look at the main postions of BJJ: the mount, knee on stomach, the guard, the rear mount. When in any of these positions could you bite? Could a Kenpo fighter bite or gouge from underneath the mount? Against a triangle choke inside the guard? Against a choke from the rear mount? Not likely. That is why cross-training is important. That's why MMA fighters cross-train and that is why some of the best Kenpo schools cross-train.

Well I rolled with "anyone who studies BJJ" like you said, and
that's what my experience was. Yet I still admit as I have in the
past, it was ONE guy. But I argue the biting point because:


Originally posted by Fastmover
Remember if you elect to bite and/or eye gauge, your opponent can elect to do the same thing and if your opponent is a skilled ground fighter he will be doing it from a much better position.


Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Agreed.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpo Yahoo:


I honestly can't believe you guys are still arguing over this. If you want to know what a true BJJ student is capable of go check out a Machado school or even a Gracie school. If you don't want to, great, train however you want but don't knock it until you've been up against a decent grappler (not some jackass wannabe).

Well said.

It is disappointing to hear Kenpoists -- students of one of the most comprehensive, best thought out, most analytical arts -- arguing that if they get into a grappling situation that they would rather bite their way out than train to defend themselves properly. This really makes me concerned for the future of Kenpo.

Most BJJ'ers think BJJ is the best art. But, I haven't met one who thinks BJJ makes him impervious to pain or immune to a good punch. BJJ people know that they can grapple but that they haven't trained for standup fighting. Those interested in self-defense cross-train in boxing, kick-boxing, or Muay Thai which they usually approach with enthusiasm and an open mind.

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kirk
That's what I'm saying! The guy that I rolled with was in constant
No .. I'm thinking that a cheek, ear, nose .. whatever's within my
teeth's range. When Holyfield's ear was bitten .. that TIIINY little
piece made him squeal .. he didn't think about about throwing
punching combinations or anything else other than "oh my God
that hurts

First of all, If Hollyfield had been training for the bite he would have acted accordingly. Had this move been on the table he would have very deliberatly enacted a defennse. Sure he was caught off guard. I'm still trying to figure out why a non-grappling sports practitioner is being used to prove the inefectiveness of ground fighters but what the heck. Biting exposes the throat so as long as a person isn't wearing a couple of big goofy boxing gloves, a simple defense can be employed. when fighting a grappler you will find that your arms and legs will be canceled out and that jaw of yours will be pinned shut with a shoulder or a heel palm so good luck on those non-positional adjustments, for all the good it will do you. To bad your opponent won't realize your shoulders, elbows, and kneck don't bend that way.

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Uh...what fancy high kicks in kenpo would these be, exactly?

My mistake. I was referring to TKD. Actually, any kick above the waist is crazy. Why bother to kick someone in the chest, not that it isn't a bad thing to do, when you can kick the groin, knee, or stomp on the foot

Mike

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Touch of Death, hmmm,
Ok, well. First, Im not interested in ending a "fight". I dont fight any longer. If you read my post carefully, you'd have seen that most of the fights I have been involved in took place in and around bars. I no longer drink, and have matured considerabley since those days, so I dont find myself in the same predicaments that I once did. I am only interested in eliminating any and all physical threats to my family and myself. If someone is stupid enough to try to take me to the ground, then they have made their mistake, and what ever happens is on them. Im not going to get into a chest pounding thing with you. Its obvious you are a proponent of groundfighting, good for you. I am not. I form my opinions based solely on my experiences, things I have seen, and been a part of. Very, very few of my fights ever ended up on the ground. The ones that did were definetly not anything like you describe as someone choking me out with my own arm, lol.
In my previous post, I was trying to let others that may not have experienced many fights, that groundfighting is not end all of training avenues. It is one of the facets that must be considered to become a well rounded fighter, but not of primary focus. Also, I have know people that did encounter their first violent altercation, and they were not prepared to deal with the aftermath of having felt their opponents blood on their hands. It is not a warm and fuzzy feeling. Alot of skilled martial artists have been lost by this very realization when all they have known is "dojo fights". So, we'll go our seperate ways, agreeing to disagree I suppose on this very drawn out topic. If groundfighting is your thing, good luck. It just happens not to be mine.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

Well, everybodys fights are different. Everybody is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. However, for someone to think that they will not ever get taken down in a fight is a huge mistake. Its one thing to be confident, you there is a thing called over-confidence. Like I have said before, grappling is not the end all of combat. Niether is stand up. If you fall to the ground and your opp. follows you, then it would be wise to know enough to at least get back to your feet. I have trained with alot of grapplers and wrestlers, and I can assure you, that if they want to take you down, they will, and they will do so, even if they take a shot while doing it.

I have trained in a stand up style for the majority of my training, but considering the ground is a place where I might end up, Ive decided to learn it. If you choose not to, then that is your choice, and you are entitled to it, but don't think that you will never end up on the ground.

Mike

[MJS]

Dont forget about an art that Paul Vunak teaches- kino mutai--it consists of biting, as well as where and how to bite properly. Kenpo is an excellent art, so I don't want ANYBODY to think that I'm against it--I've been doing it for 17 yrs!! However, no art is the best art. If that was the case, then there would only be 1 school, and the teacher would be the richest man alive because everybody would train with him. In regards to the biting, eye pokes, etc. In MMA, there are rules. Just because they don't to that in those fights, does not mean that on the street, they don't know how to bite and poke.

It's good to be prepared for all situations--punching, kicking, clinching, and grappling. Even Chuck Norris and Dan Inosanto, who are excellent MA in their own right, and have been doing primarily stand up arts for the majority of their training, have sought out the Machados to learn grappling. They have done what alot of us need to do---empty our cups and begin to learn again!

Mike

[Kempojujutsu]

A BJJ martial artist will go to all lengths to learn to defend against attackers, and learn to strike to punch. This includes learning boxing, muay Thai and even kenpo. It seems some kenpoist will not learn grappling to better kenpo. Because it is not true kenpo or Mr. Parker didn't teach it until Black Belt level. I am sure this will ruffles some feathers. I am not trying to just make a point. Here is another good example from kenpo. Don't they have different techniques for same type of attacks. Why? In case technique 1 doesn't work can go into technique 2 or 3 etc. What if ground fighting technique doesn't work eye gouge or bite. The other issue to bite is health reasons. HIV, Hiptitiss (SP) B.
Bob:asian:

[Touch Of Death]

REALITY BITES.

[M F]

If I recall correctly, when Holyfield was bitten by Tyson, Holyfield tried to punch, threw an elbow, and then was separated from Tyson by people who entered the ring at this point. He was caught off guard, but not disabled. He was barely distracted by having a piece of his ear bitten off. Do not fool yourself into believing that biting someone is going to get you out of a hold or lock when your (and your opponents) adrenalin is flowing.

Do I believe that all the principles required to be an effective grappler are in Kenpo? Yes. Do I think that grappling needs have a greater emphasis in the overall scheme of ones training? Absolutely. The more you know about a style of fighting, the better equipped you are to defend against it.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by M F
If I recall correctly, when Holyfield was bitten by Tyson, Holyfield tried to punch, threw an elbow, and then was separated from Tyson by people who entered the ring at this point. He was caught off guard, but not disabled. He was barely distracted by having a piece of his ear bitten off.

INteresting .. I'll have to watch it again, cause to my recollection,
he was dancing everywhere in pain. I remember him trying to
punch when Tyson first chewed on it .. before he bit a piece off.

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

Some of you guys out there are military buffs. I consider our special forces to be the best trained military forces on the planet. Does this mean they are invincible? Hell No!

Well, I considered them the best equiped, but in a war there's always the guerrilla tactic, and then it's mind which comes over equipment or training.

So if you don't have a head you use in good shape, then you'll do a mistake someone more clever than you will use against you. And it doesn't matter whether he's BJJ, TKD, Kenpo...

Hey, intelligence is a weapon we can also use and is the one leading the others. Go train it!!

[MJS]

True, you do have to worry about a disease when biting. Of course, nothing says that you have to break skin. I would think that as soon as you made the attempt, the other person might pull away, giving you the chance to escape. Of course, even without biting, just throwing punches can cause blood to get on you. I guess its a chance that you'll have to take.

Mike

[twinkletoes]

OK, time to clear some things up!

1) Biting on the ground is not done to draw blood or to create injury. It is done to create space! When a trained biter (that's right, someone who trains biting) does his thing, it has a few special characteristics:

-It is after gaining a position, standing up or on the ground, in which he can bite uninterrupted . That is to say, he attains a position in which for the next 15 seconds or so, you cannot hit or bite him back.

-The targets he bites are selected because they will cause you to push away from him explosively.

-This is done with the purpose of creating space, so that he can escape or strike (usually escape).

People who train Kino Mutai (philipino art of biting, gouging, pinching, twisting, spitting, etc.) use it as an addition to their grappling training. Some BJJ guys are lucky enough to train under instructor who know this stuff! What happens when you grapple someone who has experience using and defending gouges and bites? It will not be fun for you!

2) Are you a kenpo stylist? I am. I have been training it for 15 years. My understanding is that we have all these different techniques because we want to train for a variety of practical situations. Sometimes we even poke a little fun at some traditional styles because they train against things like sword attacks, or really unrealistic type attacks that someone would never really use on the street. Sometimes we also see the responses they give as unrealistic.

Experience is the best guide when it comes to judging whether or not something is realistic. That's why we spar, and we try to include a lot of allowable tactics in sparring. I mean, if we're going to harp on the limitations of "sport styles" we'd better to be ready to show them what "more realistic training" looks like.

So the question is, when it comes to all the situations Kenpo addresses, are you confident you can handle it because you know a technique that covers it? Are you confident because you sparred that scenario out? Are you confident because someone told you once that you dont have to worry about it?

Your answer will be different for every scenario. For years I did what I thought was realistic knife defenses. I have a black belt in Arnis, as well as my 3rd degree in kenpo. You know what happened when I gave a new white belt a 6-inch piece of pipe foam and told him to stab me with it? I disarmed him twice, and got killed 8 times. Do I think that I have realistic knife defenses? I think it's time to do that new drill some more.

Your experience will dictate your readiness. I'm not suggesting we all need to be able to out-box a heavyweight, out-stickfight an Escrimador, out-kick a TKD instructor, out-randori a Judoka, and out-grapple a BJJer, but the question is: "What kind of real experience do you have in all of your fields?"

cont.

[twinkletoes]

Throughout all my years in Kenpo I was always told that Kenpo was eclectic, non-traditional and well-rounded. I am not going to challenge that statement, because my kenpo is these things. However, I had to restore some of these elements that were dying out. What do I mean?

I mean that some things were becoming de-emphasized in my training and I had to bring them back to retain the relevance and well-roundedness. For starters, I learned Arnis, and started learning new ways to train weapons. This helped my understanding of the kenpo approach to weapons. Then I started learning BJJ, and realized that a realistic ground approach was not present in my Kenpo.

Now, I am not necessarily advocating that Kenpoka everywhere need to go train everything else. But for me to keep my training well-rounded and addressing many situations, I needed to introduce new training methodologies to the ideas I'd been handed. I now train with games and alive drills which improve my skills exponentially. These training methods help my kenpo.

For example, last year I taught a seminar called "Groundfighting without Grappling." This focused on striking from the ground against a standing opponent, WITHOUT going into grappling and BJJ. I took the old-school "lying on your side, side-kicking at his knee" approach, which BTW doesn't work against most people, and I supercharged it with ideas I had picked up in BJJ and other places. The result? A fully Kenpo skillset involving numerous kicks and ways to get to your feet from your back, which was safer and more effective than the version I had learned. The ideas for how I trained in order to work on the techniques came from outside my art, but the product was still kenpo.

Lastly, I will not bother to argue that kenpoists should go learn BJJ. I have seen from my experience that it helps tremendously, but it is not my place to say what other kenpoka should do with their training. I will, however, add an observation.

Almost all BJJ practitioners include in their training times when they spar against practitioners of every other art known to man. They allow the other martial artists to use their favorite rules, ranges and tactics, so that the BJJers will learn what to expect from other stylists (strikers, wrestlers, etc.). They have no problem sparring kenpo guys, so that they can experience kenpo responses to their BJJ tactics, and devise appropriate counters, and train those counters. This way they are really prepared not for what someone *might* theoretically do, or what would work against them, but they know from experience what they did do, and they trained ways to prevent it. (Incidentally, this is why they did so well in the UFC's and other competitions).

I know VERY few kenpo practitioners who have the same research mindset. But I am one, and it sounds like there are a few more lurking here :) Are you one?

Best,

~Chris

[MJS]

I could not agree more with the last 4 paragraphs of the first post. We are talking about the pros and cons of this art and that art, but I have seen no mention of any real experiences. Now, before anybody starts yelling, let me clarify what I'm saying.

What I am NOT saying is that we all have to run out and enter in NHB. What I'm talking about is any real life street encounter that you may have had to back up your skills, or what types of realistic training you do in your own school. Like TT mentioned about the knife drills. Here you have a relaxed setting, using a piece of foam, and a beginner student, and look what happened. You have someone with 15 yrs experience, who has excellent fighting knowledge, trains realistically, and got "stabbed" more times than not. And this in only a drill!!!

I think the point we are trying to make here is regardless of what you are able to do in your own school, during the training sessions, etc., that we need to train for some realism. By omitting that from our training is doing more harm than good!

MJS

[rmcrobertson]

I'm still waiting to read about something I haven't been taught, and repeatedly practiced, right at home in kenpo.

And I'd really like to read a good definition of this, "real life," I keep reading so much about.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
OK, time to clear some things up!

1) Biting on the ground is not done to draw blood or to create injury. It is done to create space! When a trained biter (that's right, someone who trains biting) does his thing, it has a few special characteristics:

-It is after gaining a position, standing up or on the ground, in which he can bite uninterrupted . That is to say, he attains a position in which for the next 15 seconds or so, you cannot hit or bite him back.

-The targets he bites are selected because they will cause you to push away from him explosively.

-This is done with the purpose of creating space, so that he can escape or strike (usually escape).

People who train Kino Mutai (philipino art of biting, gouging, pinching, twisting, spitting, etc.) use it as an addition to their grappling training. Some BJJ guys are lucky enough to train under instructor who know this stuff! What happens when you grapple someone who has experience using and defending gouges and bites? It will not be fun for you!

2) Are you a kenpo stylist? I am. I have been training it for 15 years. My understanding is that we have all these different techniques because we want to train for a variety of practical situations. Sometimes we even poke a little fun at some traditional styles because they train against things like sword attacks, or really unrealistic type attacks that someone would never really use on the street. Sometimes we also see the responses they give as unrealistic.

Experience is the best guide when it comes to judging whether or not something is realistic. That's why we spar, and we try to include a lot of allowable tactics in sparring. I mean, if we're going to harp on the limitations of "sport styles" we'd better to be ready to show them what "more realistic training" looks like.

So the question is, when it comes to all the situations Kenpo addresses, are you confident you can handle it because you know a technique that covers it? Are you confident because you sparred that scenario out? Are you confident because someone told you once that you dont have to worry about it?

Your answer will be different for every scenario. For years I did what I thought was realistic knife defenses. I have a black belt in Arnis, as well as my 3rd degree in kenpo. You know what happened when I gave a new white belt a 6-inch piece of pipe foam and told him to stab me with it? I disarmed him twice, and got killed 8 times. Do I think that I have realistic knife defenses? I think it's time to do that new drill some more.

Your experience will dictate your readiness. I'm not suggesting we all need to be able to out-box a heavyweight, out-stickfight an Escrimador, out-kick a TKD instructor, out-randori a Judoka, and out-grapple a BJJer, but the question is: "What kind of real experience do you have in all of your fields?"

cont.

Not to rain on your pararde but anytime you're being choked your body begins to go into a self-preservation mode, including biting, scratching, pinching etc. It's not uncommon to watch any child in a headlock bite their way out, untrained no less.

Let's get to the scenario of a novice having a knife

1) he knew you were going to defend.

2)you waited for the attack, then lost more times than won, geez, wonder why?

3)did you strike him with full power and move at full speed? Kinda defeats the point doesn't it?

4)was a weapon available for your use at any time?

5)was running ever an option? This should actually be the first.



Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I'm still waiting to read about something I haven't been taught, and repeatedly practiced, right at home in kenpo.

And I'd really like to read a good definition of this, "real life," I keep reading so much about.

I'm starting to think Robert that you just like testing everybody elses knowledge. Well, thats fine...test away!!!

You are telling me that you have had someone on top of you on the ground, and you successfully defended with a Kenpo tech? The top man probably didn't have much grappling experience. You do biting in Kenpo? Gee, thats funny. I don't know of 1 tech, that has biting in it.

Real life---well Rob, let me try, and a big emphasis on TRY, to enlighten you. We all train in Kenpo, the wide assortment of tech. Most of the time, the attacker punches, stopping 2 in away from the target, and then stands still while the Kenpoist delivers mult. strikes...all to someone who is not moving. Do you practice against mult punches? And I am NOT talking about the extensions, or other tech that are done against more than 1 punch! I train with one of my partners. We went for 5 min, each, non stop throwing random attacks at each other. No sooner did we finish one tech. another was being fired off. You dont have a chance to think..."Ok, a straight punch is coming..which of the 50 punch techs am i gonna do...OOPPSS..here comes a kick, which one of the 4 defenses am I gonna do?" No, instead you just react to the attack, with out any thinking. What about training with live weapons. On the street, you wont be against a rubber knife. How about some full contact sparring? None of this point crap, and no kicking to the legs or back, because its not in the rules.

Now, I'm sure you will say next.."Well, not everybody wants to train like that....FINE...but that is your real life.

MS

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I have nothing useful to write in response.

If you'd like to take that as an admission that training with the likes of Clyde is worthless, "in real life," fine by me.

Thanks.

[MJS]

Robert--why cant you just answer the question. I'm starting to think that you are agreeing with some of the things I've said, but are afraid to admit them!

I have no idea about the knowledge of your Inst. Reading a post or bio on here, does not give a very good idea. Not saying that he isnt who he says he is, but its just hard to know your skill or your Inst skill when I have not seen either one of you.

MS

[rmcrobertson]

"Afraid."

Sigh.

I don't choose to answer any of the questions you insist upon, because I don't see how the answers would be helpful. In fact, you've already pretty much said that my instructors don't know what they're doing, so I think I'll just let this one go.

Thanks for the discussion.

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
"Afraid."

Sigh.

I don't choose to answer any of the questions you insist upon, because I don't see how the answers would be helpful. In fact, you've already pretty much said that my instructors don't know what they're doing, so I think I'll just let this one go.

Thanks for the discussion.

And there we go again folks...Rob putting words into my mouth. Rob, listen close for just a min, ok. Show me where I said your Inst dont know what they are doing? If I said it, show me the post in those exact words! I said that it seems that alot of the Kenpo inst out there are not willing to open up to other options!

MS

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Not to rain on your pararde but anytime you're being choked your body begins to go into a self-preservation mode, including biting, scratching, pinching etc. It's not uncommon to watch any child in a headlock bite their way out, untrained no less.

Let's get to the scenario of a novice having a knife

1) he knew you were going to defend.

2)you waited for the attack, then lost more times than won, geez, wonder why?

3)did you strike him with full power and move at full speed? Kinda defeats the point doesn't it?

4)was a weapon available for your use at any time?

5)was running ever an option? This should actually be the first.



Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Clyde, let me say first, that I know this poster personally, and I am very aware of his skills and his training methods. Are you telling me that an attacker on the street is not going to know that you will be defending? Waited for the attack? Well, if you reach for the weapon, dont you think that you're gonna get cut? Striking him? Well, considering it was hard enough to grab the weapon hand, dont you think weapon retention is more important than the initial strkie?

Let me ask you this. Have you ever defended yourself against a real blade attack?? Or have you trained mostly with rubber knives? And, if you have, you are telling me that you have not gotten cut? Was your "attacker" really trying to cut you, or only going half way so as to make you look good while doing the disarm? And believe me, I have seen that many times. The Inst. does a tech with a student that he knows will make him look good so the other students will be under a flase misconception that this tech will work

MS

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...Mike? Here you go...your words...

"Well, maybe you can answer this question for me. I was watching Larry Tatums Mass Attack tape. In the beginning, you see him fighting mult attackers....yup, one at a time. During the actual inst. he goes on to gradually position the attackers according to his set movements, saying that when he does this move, then this will happen, and prevent that attacker from doing this, etc. How can you predict a mult person fight? You talk about Hollywood. Well, in a real mult attacker fight, they will not be attacking 1 at a time..."

Maybe I'm misreading?


I think I'll let Clyde answer for himself, concerning his own lack of realism. This should be good.

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Uh...Mike? Here you go...your words...

"Well, maybe you can answer this question for me. I was watching Larry Tatums Mass Attack tape. In the beginning, you see him fighting mult attackers....yup, one at a time. During the actual inst. he goes on to gradually position the attackers according to his set movements, saying that when he does this move, then this will happen, and prevent that attacker from doing this, etc. How can you predict a mult person fight? You talk about Hollywood. Well, in a real mult attacker fight, they will not be attacking 1 at a time..."

Maybe I'm misreading?


I think I'll let Clyde answer for himself, concerning his own lack of realism. This should be good.

LOL!! WOW Rob! This is just another example of the misconception of a mult attacker fight. Having the students standing the way "YOU" want them to stand and attack how "YOU" want them to, and having them attack 1 at a time. This to me is not a mult person attack.

I have worked in a prison, and have seen a few fights among the inmates. It was rarely a 1 on 1...more like 10 on 1 all at the same time, kicking and punching, and throwing things at the guy on the ground. If someone is going to attack you in a group, you will have all or at least the majority of them attacking at the same time.

MS

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MJS
Clyde, let me say first, that I know this poster personally, and I am very aware of his skills and his training methods. Are you telling me that an attacker on the street is not going to know that you will be defending? Waited for the attack? Well, if you reach for the weapon, dont you think that you're gonna get cut? Striking him? Well, considering it was hard enough to grab the weapon hand, dont you think weapon retention is more important than the initial strkie?

Let me ask you this. Have you ever defended yourself against a real blade attack?? Or have you trained mostly with rubber knives? And, if you have, you are telling me that you have not gotten cut? Was your "attacker" really trying to cut you, or only going half way so as to make you look good while doing the disarm? And believe me, I have seen that many times. The Inst. does a tech with a student that he knows will make him look good so the other students will be under a flase misconception that this tech will work

MS

Let me say I've never had to beat my way out of a situation with a person holding a knife. I managed to talk them out of using it all three times a weapon came into play. Oddly enough, the voice of reason took over in them and they put it away. I was really pushing them when I told them where the knife would end up should they not, and the fact they didn't know I was armed as well. They decided to play their trump first by showing the blade, I didn't. Fortunately, it worked out in both our favor. I don't train with a live blade, that's just stupid, and I'm certainly not beyond running like a schoolboy let out for recess. Oh well.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...Mike? I was quoting you in response to your statement:

"...there we go again folks...Rob putting words into my mouth. Rob, listen close for just a min, ok. Show me where I said your Inst dont know what they are doing? If I said it, show me the post in those exact words!"

Therefore, I quoted your statement:

"Well, maybe you can answer this question for me. I was watching Larry Tatums Mass Attack tape. In the beginning, you see him fighting mult attackers....yup, one at a time. During the actual inst. he goes on to gradually position the attackers according to his set movements, saying that when he does this move, then this will happen, and prevent that attacker from doing this, etc. How can you predict a mult person fight? You talk about Hollywood. Well, in a real mult attacker fight, they will not be attacking 1 at a time..."

And you responded as follows:

"WOW Rob! This is just another example of the misconception of a mult attacker fight. Having the students standing the way "YOU" want them to stand and attack how "YOU" want them to, and having them attack 1 at a time. This to me is not a mult person attack..."

I'm not sure I see how this amounts to, "putting words in your mouth." I'm also not sure how to interpret this as anything other than a statement that, "Your Inst dont know what they are doing." Could you explain?

Thanks.

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Let me say I've never had to beat my way out of a situation with a person holding a knife. I managed to talk them out of using it all three times a weapon came into play. Oddly enough, the voice of reason took over in them and they put it away. I was really pushing them when I told them where the knife would end up should they not, and the fact they didn't know I was armed as well. They decided to play their trump first by showing the blade, I didn't. Fortunately, it worked out in both our favor. I don't train with a live blade, that's just stupid, and I'm certainly not beyond running like a schoolboy let out for recess. Oh well.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Well, stupid as it may sound, I'm not saying that you have to go full speed, but training with a live blade is not stupid. In fact, that is what you will face on the street, not a rubber knife. You have no way to tell, with rubber, if you've been cut or not. The fact that you were able to talk your way out is great, and is something that we all should do. Unfortunately, that will not always work.

MS

[Fastmover]

Training with a live blade is a little too hard core. One slip up and
you could have a life time injury. Plus with a live blade I think your
attacker will be holding back a little. Try using a black or red marker, with that you will know whether you were cut of not and your attacker will take pleassure in trying to trying to make a mark.

Just an idea

[MJS]

To clarify---Of course, you run the risk of a very serious injury. Attemping the disarm at 1/4 or 1/2 speed will definately open your eyes. Is doing this for everybody? NO. I do know of people that train this, just for that "real" feeling.

MS

[rmcrobertson]

My understanding of knives n' guns began with a set of rules my teachers passed down to me--and here are the first two: Rule 1: don't take on somebody with a knife or gun, unless you're pretty sure they're going to kill you. Rule 2: if you take on somebody with a knife, be prepared to get cut.

My understanding of realism, in this case, is this: if you use a live blade and, "train realistically," you will be cut. Inevitably, but probably pretty soon.

Or, the guy with the knife will...take a look at the first knife tech in the standard curriculum, "Raining Lance," which begins as you step in and redirect the knife into the attacker's right thigh. (Well, if they're lucky, the thigh.) I don't see how to be "realistic," in the sense just advanced, and leave out this little step.

For example, shouldn't you have blood pouring over the leg, hand and knife to make sure that the check is done properly, rather than rely on an uncertain grab? Shouldn't you really do the Tiger's Mouth shot to the eyes, so's you can get used to having somebody react while you're close, and they have a knife in their hand?

No? All training involves a degree of realism, and a degree of unrealism. We can certainly discuss the spectrum from "real," to "unreal," but it doesn't help to simply claim that everybody else is being "unrealistic," because they don't use a live blade.

There is, in the sword arts, a tradition of using a live blade. Kensho Furuya, if I recall correctly, says that you can only learn this way, since otherwise you won't have the proper respect--actually, he writes, "fear"--for the sword. However, they are doing kata and basics, not sparring.

I'm still a couple of years away from there being any point in my trying to learn Form 8 in kenpo, the knife form. And when I do, I'm going to do what everybody else does...wooden knives, or dull blades and a lotta duct tape over the edges. I've seen, and experienced, what it's like to get worked on with even dull, taped blades...and, I might add, if we're going to talk realism, there are clearly aspects to that form that cannot be learned without putting metal on skin.

I believe that the same applies to the knife techs.

Thank you.

[MJS]

True--this is not for everybody. I would recommend at the very least, using a marker, or something that will leave some sort of a mark. There is actually a company that sells a training blade that has a material on the edges. You can apply something such as lipstick to the edges, which will leave a mark on you showing that you "got cut". Using something like this, rather than a regular training knife will at least give you that "real" feeling.

Mike

[twinkletoes]

Guys,

Don't worry, I'm agreeing. I just want to add in, and do a little clarifying too.

Clyde,

You mentioned that the first strategy is always running. I agree. I do and teach the same. In fact, this drill is one I half-jokingly call "The Ego killer" because it teaches students (and instructors alike) that none of us should be thinking about taking on a knife, ever. It's just plain macho and stupid. I too have talked my way out of numerous altercations over the years. I agree that it is the mature and adult way to deal with this.

My only beef with your post is that you read some things into my description of the drill. (I waited, I didn't hit him full power & speed, etc.). I won't argue over the drill itself. I just want the point of the drill--the ego killer--to get across.


And to everyone else, I never said my drill was un-kenpo, before anyone implies that I did. It's a kenpo drill that I taught in a kenpo class. And it's alive and useful. :)

Robert,

I agree that live blade training is for real fanatics. (How did we get on this topic???) You are also right when you say that all training is somewhere on a spectrum from realistic to unrealistic. I think it was Tony Blauer who said something like "All training is fake fighting, so fake fight as realistically as you can!" I think we both probably agree with this, with considerations for safety of course.

I work with an instructor who uses live blades in training. He doesn't do this all the time, because obviously safety is difficult. He does it from time to time for his own training, and this past week did it with his advanced kali students.

Personally, I'm not ready for this. It will be some time before I do feel ready for something training with a live blade. I want to train safely! I'll say again: live blade training is for real fanatics.

I also think, though, that if you want to train knife disarms, you need to do this at some point in your training. I understand that there are safety risks. But I think it needs to be done to teach you 1) respect for the blade and 2) how much our egos can be in control.

Now, if someone is a hobbyist, and isn't in the martial arts for that kind of thing, then I completely understand. They shouldn't do this kind of training! The risks far outweigh the benefits. However, if they are training for some kind of "self-defense" (whatever that means to them) and they elect to learn knife disarms, I think it behooves them to get to this point in their training. Why? Because I think that knife disarming is for fanatics too.

If one is a hobbyist, or learning them for curiosity's sake, or learning them to round out some understanding of movement or grip or whatever, then again, they should not do any live blade training. But if they have a desire to develop skill in knife disarming, well, then I think they need to have a time when they do it on a real knife. I think that having the desire to develop that skill necessitates that.

I find myself on the fanatic side of the line. I want to develop enough skill that if, and I certainly don't see it happening, but if it were ever necessary I could be confident in that skill. And I think to do so behooves me to train, at some point, when my skill level is high enough, to train with a live blade. Until then, I do not think it should even be an option in my mind to ever think about a disarm--not until I have disarmed a live blade in training.

In the end, I say all this to agree, not to disagree. Please don't think I'm arguing with you, but since the live blade conversation came up, I think these are some things we should consider.

Best,

~TT

[twinkletoes]

PS - What I've said about knife training and fanatics also applies to firearm training. The only difference is that when it comes to firearm training I am not a fanatic! I have learned disarm techniques, and I don't practice them on anything tougher than a squirtgun.

Why is my approach different in this case? Because I don't have the desire to develop a high enough skill level with these techniques to actually pull them off. In this realm I am more of a hobbyist, and I learn the techniques to help round out certain understandings of grip releasing and body mechanics. I don't want to spend enough time around firearms that I would feel comfortable grabbing somebody's! That is too much for me!

Best,

~TT

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, never used--or hinted at, or had in mind--the word, "fanatics."

Nor would I use terminology such as, "hobbbyist."

Not only does such language introduce insults into the discussion, but more importantly they represent an inaccurate structuration of the issues.

For example, it simply is not the case that, "in this corner, we have the fanatics! They train realistically, with live blades! for real self-defense!" and "in the other corner, we have their opponent, the hobbyist with a squirt gun!"

This is what's called a, "binary opposition." In this case, it's wrong.

All training is "unrealistic," in some sense. All martial arts training--even tae-bo--teaches self-defense. It may not be very effective self-defense, but that's another issue.

My point was that not just that training with a
"live" blade is unnecessarily dangerous, but that--more importantly--if we're really gonna talk realism, in the sense I keep reading so much about, it means that you must cut somebody and be cut.

I also simply don't believe it's necessary, and I believe it unnecessarily reinforces ideas of toughness, invulnerability, and threat that remain a problem in the martial arts.

Or to repeat Mr. Chapel, "There are no ninjas in the parking lot." In terms of self-defense, we are training to handle--if absolutely necessary!--the kind of idiot who jumps us on the street, or starts a fight for no reason, or breaks into the house, etc. We are not training to get into "Hollywood," knife fights, or become samurai or Green Berets.

And we damn sure ought to be training, to repeat Clyde, to have the sense to run like hell away from a knife if at all possible.

And oh yes. I have had somebody come after me with a knife. I have had somebody stick a gun in my ear. "For real." I have also worked extensively in hospitals, and I have--"for real"--seen up close what knives and guns do to the human body.

But to make the long story short, I don't agree that anybody who trains with a life blade is a "fanatic." Nor do I think that this string is a question of "traditionalists," vs. "innovators," or "realists," vs. "hobbyists."

Thanks.

[MJS]

I think the terms "hobbiest" and "fanatic" can be a little vauge, and anybody who reads this will have different translations of what it means. Everybody does the arts for different reasons--weight loss, self confidence/control, self defense, and just for an extra activity to do outside of working. We have spent alot of time bad mouthing each other about the types of training that we all do, and when you stop and think about it, where has it gotten any of us?? Nowhere!

Training with a live blade is very dangerous, and is not for everybody. Am I saying that everybody needs to or should do this to get the most out of their training? NO! It shold be somthing that is up to the individual person to do if they choose to. If you do disarms in kenpo, and I'm sure that we all do, and you feel comfortable with them and confident that they will work, great! I do think however, that we should take into consideratin that a wooden or rubber knife does not give a good test as to if the disarm is going to work or not. Using a marker, or the knife that i mentioned that has a material around the edges that you can apply lipstick to, would probably give you a better feeling and a much safer feeling of whether or not the disarm is going to work.

Robert, I think the term "hobbiest" that TT used was not to say that anybody who does not train with a real blade is wasting his or her time. I think a better way of saying it would be, that the hobbiest is the one who wants to train with the knife. This is something that they want to do in their own training for their own reasons. I don't think it was a shot directed at you or anyone else.

I know that some of us, myself included, have come across as having this cocky attitude that we know everything. Once again, forgive me, but this is not how I was trying to come across. I realize that we all train differently and we all have different inst. who all come from various backgrounds. As for myself, as i don't want to speak for others, I was just going on my own experiences in my own training and some of the weak spots that I have seen. Does this mean that they are in your training? NO! I think the idea of the forums is to talk about our training and share, in a FRIENDLY way, all of the expereinces of our training. Just because someone mentions grappling, NOBODY should degrade look down upon that person just because they do not do it. We all are intitled to train aswe want. If someone has no interest in grappling, thats ok, but still keep an open mind and realize that there is something to learn from every art, no matter what it might be, no matter how stupid you might think that it is. To constantly argue about the best way to do this or that, is not going to get us anywhere.

Also, in my posts, I use the word "YOU" I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ONE PERSON IN GENERAL, BUT EVERYBODY AS A WHOLE! I don't want ANYBODY to think that I am singling them out.

My best to everyone, and I look forward to having more friendly discussions with everybody!!

Mike

[twinkletoes]

Sorry Robert,

I just realized my mistake. I didn't mean for it to sound like I was agreeing with your use of "fanatics" (since you didn't use it).

I agree with you that live blade training is dangerous. I will use the word "fanatic" for people that take it to that level. I am a fanatic, and when I am skilled enough I will take it to that level.

My apologies for the confusion.

I also think when it comes to realism we might be discussing different things. That's ok. I agree with what you posted just now about it. There are no ninjas :) and I'm not in favor of reinforcing the stereotypes either. I don't see opposition between what we wrote, but perhaps I'm reading my own post differently than it sounds. I will agree that we are probably on the same track, as your post sounds reasonable.

Lastly, in response to "fanatics" vs. "hobbyists" I will agree with a couple things that Mike said. I don't use those terms to poke fun at anyone, except maybe myself. Mike said that different people come to the martial arts for different reasons: sometimes it is health, or self-esteem. Sometimes they want to make friends. Sometimes they want to learn things that look cool. Sometimes they want to feel safer. When I say "hobbyists" I refer to people who study casually--they are not fanatics, nor are they trying to make the martial arts their lifelong pursuit. They are doing it for fun, for health, or for social purposes ONLY. (Fanatics and lifelong people may ALSO have these reasons, but it is not their primary reason). I do not aim the title of "hobbyist" at anyone, but I have taught many of them over the years. They are looking for something fun to do. They figured why not try martial arts. Their level of involvement stays around that intensity.

Best,

~TT

[howardr]

MJS said:


Well, stupid as it may sound, I'm not saying that you have to go full speed, but training with a live blade is not stupid. In fact, that is what you will face on the street, not a rubber knife. You have no way to tell, with rubber, if you've been cut or not. The fact that you were able to talk your way out is great, and is something that we all should do. Unfortunately, that will not always work.


Given the fact, as has already been mentioned, that training with a live blade can so easily lead to accidental death or permanent disability (not to mention severe non-permanent injuries), it strikes as quite odd that you would advocate this. Why do I say that? Well, combining the high propensity of severe injury or death involved with training with a live blade with the fact that for the average person being attacked by a bladed individual is a statistically rarity, it does not seem to make sense to me that such training is anything other than stupid. (Especially when you can become significantly more likely to survive those rare knife encounters simply by training with dummy blades.)

Look at it this way: suppose you can become 90% as effective against knives as you can by using a dummy blade, but 100% as effective as you can by training using a live blade. For that extra 10% or so advantage you get from training with a live blade you run a extremely high chance of suffering severe and permanent injuries. In other words, you get a relatively small increase in skill by training with a live blade at the expense of a drastically high chance of terrible injury, all for the relatively low chance that you will ever be attacked by a bladed individual.

Am I missing something?

ps., do you train gun disarms against a fully loaded handgun, shotgun, rifle for that extra bit of realism?

[MJS]

Originally posted by howardr
MJS said:



Given the fact, as has already been mentioned, that training with a live blade can so easily lead to accidental death or permanent disability (not to mention severe non-permanent injuries), it strikes as quite odd that you would advocate this. Why do I say that? Well, combining the high propensity of severe injury or death involved with training with a live blade with the fact that for the average person being attacked by a bladed individual is a statistically rarity, it does not seem to make sense to me that such training is anything other than stupid. (Especially when you can become significantly more likely to survive those rare knife encounters simply by training with dummy blades.)

Look at it this way: suppose you can become 90% as effective against knives as you can by using a dummy blade, but 100% as effective as you can by training using a live blade. For that extra 10% or so advantage you get from training with a live blade you run a extremely high chance of suffering severe and permanent injuries. In other words, you get a relatively small increase in skill by training with a live blade at the expense of a drastically high chance of terrible injury, all for the relatively low chance that you will ever be attacked by a bladed individual.

Am I missing something?

ps., do you train gun disarms against a fully loaded handgun, shotgun, rifle for that extra bit of realism?

Yup, you are missing something. Go back and re-read my last post as well as the posts by TT. You mention that knife attacks are rare. How do you figure this? Just the other day, there was an armed robbery in the city that I work in. The robber held a knife to the managers throat, while he demanded money and his car! Like I said in the post, it is something that not everybody is going to want to do.

As for the gun defneses. Use a water gun. That way there is no guessing as to whether or not you got "shot" I mentioned doing the same thing with a marker or a knife in which you can apply something to the edge of the blade to show the "cut"

MJS

[howardr]

MJS said:


Yup, you are missing something. Go back and re-read my last post as well as the posts by TT. You mention that knife attacks are rare. How do you figure this? Just the other day, there was an armed robbery in the city that I work in. The robber held a knife to the managers throat, while he demanded money and his car! Like I said in the post, it is something that not everybody is going to want to do.

As for the gun defneses. Use a water gun. That way there is no guessing as to whether or not you got "shot" I mentioned doing the same thing with a marker or a knife in which you can apply something to the edge of the blade to show the "cut"

MJS

I must confess that this is a little odd. I'm really trying to follow your line of reasoning. Let's see:

1. So, your thought process was that you saw a story on the news or heard one on the radio about someone in your town who was robbed at knife point and ... therefore, knife attacks are common? If that is your thought process you'd be commiting the fallacy of hasty generalization. That is certainly not a significant sample to derive the conclusion you're seek.

Remember, when we talk about knife attacks what we are really talking about, as you yourself as well as several others in this thread have mentioned, is an attack with a knife in which you are going to be killed (in essence), i.e., you cannot run (which you've admitted would be the best thing), you cannot comply, etc. I would argue that if you are a normal person, that is someone not in an inherently dangerous line of work, the chances of you suffering a random attempted murder with a knife are slim to nil. And, if you are so unlucky the highly risky training with a "live" blade probably won't make a difference. As I've heard it said before: if someone really wants to kill you with a knife, you won't know about it until you feel the plunge of the blade in your back (to be a bit morbid).

2. You say both in response to my gun query and more generally that you can just use a squirt gun for realism or a magic marker. But does that not violate your initial premise that people need the "live" weapon to insure realistic responses and training? If that's true then a squirt gun, or a magic marker for that matter won't cut it. In sum, if you argue that a squirt gun or magic marker suffice, which I'd basically agree that they would, then where goes your first argument that training with a live blade is necessary for self-defense?

Howard

[MJS]

Howard- If you are thinking that I"m sitting around watching the NEWS waiting to see how many knife attacks there are, you must be nuts!!! Considering I'm in the LE field...Oh boy, I ought to take a good bashing on this one....I think that I have a better idea as to what weapons are used on the street. IE- a domestic, a fight, etc. If you think that people just fight with their hands, you are wrong. Maybe in your world they do.

I have also said, if you go back and re-read my post, that I said that training with a live blade is NOT FOR EVERYBODY! If you want to go to the next step, but still dont want to train with a live blade, then I said, that is when you use the marker. As for the gun, well, I'll give you that one. Train with the water gun. At least you will only get wet and not a bullet in your head.

Let me ask you your opinion. Please share with the room YOUR training that you do and your exp. with weapons. After all, isnt this forum designed so that we can all share knowledge with each other?

MJS

[MJS]

One more quick question. Isnt this thread discussing Kenpo on the ground? Why are we talking about weapons then? I think the conversation should be geared to being able to use your Kenpo skills on the ground if that is where you will be. Oopppsss..I forgot...some of us will never go to the ground!

I would love to hear everybody elses exp. with using a Kenpo tech on the ground!!! Isnt the idea of this forum to share knowledge? If you have had some good exp. with doing a tech. on the ground, I'm sure all of us would like to hear about it, so as to maybe add something to our own training!

MJS

[Kirk]

Originally posted by MJS
One more quick question. Isnt this thread discussing Kenpo on the ground? Why are we talking about weapons then?

You say this after how many posts made by YOU in regards to using a real knife in practice?


Originally posted by MJS
I think the conversation should be geared to being able to use your Kenpo skills on the ground if that is where you will be.

Aren't there enough threads about it already? Is it your goal to dilute the kenpo forum into nothing but "going to the ground" discussions? How many times will you and your buddies bring it up?


Originally posted by MJS
Oopppsss..I forgot...some of us will never go to the ground!


Your sarcasm is the perfect representation of your (and a couple other's) attitude about it all. Hey, here's an idea. Go spout that stuff in the MMA forum ... it's highly welcome there. You can go and talk about how pointless striking arts, and forms are, and you'll have a lot of people agreeing with you. That IS what you want afterall, isn't it?


Originally posted by MJS
I would love to hear everybody elses exp. with using a Kenpo tech on the ground!!! Isnt the idea of this forum to share knowledge? If you have had some good exp. with doing a tech. on the ground, I'm sure all of us would like to hear about it, so as to maybe add something to our own training!

MJS

Hasn't the list of names of people to go train with enough? Skip Hancock, Bob White, Larry Tatum .. there it is again for ya, in case you missed it, which would explain a lot. The forum IS about sharing knowledge, not telling everyone else how much the art we study sucks, and how we're all wasting our time with this or that. The idea is to share knowledge of all facets of kenpo, not sharing knowledge of grappling in kenpo. But I doubt you'll even read this, let alone stop another new thread about it. What is it that you want? Is it that you want everyone to say "Damn MJS, you're right and I'm wrong, I wasted time and effort in my studies because we're not working on a specific ground curriculum! You have better insight into what Mr Parker wanted than anybody!" ? Well just let me know, I'll say it, publicly and I'll continue on my merry way, wasting my time. That way I and the other rogues who "just don't know better" can use this site to discuss something other than going to the ground.

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kirk
You say this after how many posts made by YOU in regards to using a real knife in practice?



Aren't there enough threads about it already? Is it your goal to dilute the kenpo forum into nothing but "going to the ground" discussions? How many times will you and your buddies bring it up?



Your sarcasm is the perfect representation of your (and a couple other's) attitude about it all. Hey, here's an idea. Go spout that stuff in the MMA forum ... it's highly welcome there. You can go and talk about how pointless striking arts, and forms are, and you'll have a lot of people agreeing with you. That IS what you want afterall, isn't it?



Hasn't the list of names of people to go train with enough? Skip Hancock, Bob White, Larry Tatum .. there it is again for ya, in case you missed it, which would explain a lot. The forum IS about sharing knowledge, not telling everyone else how much the art we study sucks, and how we're all wasting our time with this or that. The idea is to share knowledge of all facets of kenpo, not sharing knowledge of grappling in kenpo. But I doubt you'll even read this, let alone stop another new thread about it. What is it that you want? Is it that you want everyone to say "Damn MJS, you're right and I'm wrong, I wasted time and effort in my studies because we're not working on a specific ground curriculum! You have better insight into what Mr Parker wanted than anybody!" ? Well just let me know, I'll say it, publicly and I'll continue on my merry way, wasting my time. That way I and the other rogues who "just don't know better" can use this site to discuss something other than going to the ground.

WOW!! Why the harsh words?? First off pal, I didnt start this thread, so why dont you go ask them? Never said, for the 100th time, that you have to roll for 30 min, but having the skill to get back to your feet so you can strike is very important. Was I the one who started talking about the knife?

Never said the striking arts were bad. Stop putting words into my mouth!! Just saying that cross training isnt something that should be overlooked!

I think YOU missed it. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I know about the other inst out there. Forgive me if I dont have the chance to train with the top dogs like you do. I know their exp...I want to hear about YOUR exp, as well as the other members of the forum! Is that all you have, is to talk about how great your inst is?? It seems like that is all you are doing right now!!! Stop and re read your post!!

AGAIN, dont twist things to make me look like the bad guy.. I never said the striking arts suck...that is just crap that is coming out of your mouth, not mine. We all train differently, so what works for me might not work for you. Does that mean that you should bash me for cross training? NO!

MIKE

[MJS]

Kirk--here it is for you tough guy.. TRUE2KENPO....he is the one that started the thread...IN CASE YOU MISSED IT!!!

By the way--the knife talk started on page 8---just in case you missed that one too!!!! AND IT WASNT ME!! GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU TELL ME THAT I MADE A STATEMENT THAT I NEVER DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MIKE

[Michael Billings]

Kirk,

Thanks for trying to bring some clarity back, whether it worked or not. I agree with your perception of MJS's intent. MMA may be a better thread to explore this stuff with.

We definitely have gone round, and round, and round, and round, ad nauseum about Kenpo and going to the ground. This weapons redirect is also a common MMA & JKD topic. Hmmm..... More grist for the mill? You will note that given the LACK OF DISCUSSION, I have opted, as have other's not to respond to these threads generally.

There appears to be the 3 camps.

1. Kenpo sucks on the ground ... but I love Kenpo.

2. Kenpo is the only Art, and has everything in it.

3. Kenpo is great, but can benefit from "cross-training" (whatever the hell that is) - I think it is MMA, and the posters should go there who want to actually evolve more skills in this particular milieu.

The Kenpoist can just as easily come over to a MMA thread to explore that avenue of training, as a MMA can come over to the Kenpo forums and espouse their views on training. I am tired of a lot of the threads being redirected to "Kenpo on the ground", even if that is not what the thread is called.

Start a new thread for "Live" weapons training in Kenpo. But the idea of a "live" weapon, or advocating this kind of training when we have 12 or 13 year old kids reading is irresponsible at best. They may admire MJS's stance on some issues, but remember that when you say "it is not for everybody" that this may make it more attractive to them.

I also have trained with most of the top kenpoist in the US at one time or the other. The exception to this is the East Coast guys. There is lots of great talent over there, with some great reputations. I am curious what they think of MJS, his training, his instuctors, and his philosphy on Kenpo? I know what the West Coast higher ranking belts think as we have read some of it here - but wait, I digress. This should be another thread if anyone is interested in starting it, frankly I am not.

I will continue to read this thread, as I do all the Kenpo ones, but I do not intend to continue to participate in this repetitive discussion of whose is bigger ... I mean better. Agree to disagree and lets get back to Kenpo, of course that won't happen since Kenpo is lacking so much according to some, who want to explore this.

Boy, did you catch me on a bad morning.

[Kirk]

Touchy touchy. I never said you started the thread or started the knife discussion. But you were more than happy to participate, and then insist on gettin it back on track. You participated quite heavily in it being off track. You care so much about what was said, and what you never said, and putting words in your mouth, but then you go on about how all I do is sing praises to my instructor? Show me where I did that?

When you come across as a know it all, who's going to "share" training info with you?

[Seig]

Originally posted by Kirk

When you come across as a know it all, who's going to "share" training info with you?
That is becoming more and more common and as a result fewer and fewer people are posting valuable information.

[twinkletoes]

There is now a new thread called "Favorite Game or Drill."

Let's see if we can calmly and constructively share knowledge in that thread. I fear this one is doomed.

Best,

~TT

[rmcrobertson]

Dear MJS:

To support what Kirk, Seig and others have written, many of us have told you who we are, how we train, who our instructors are, what we think, and we've all pretty much been told, in response, that we're idiots. And so are our teachers. (As one example, please see a) your repeated use of the words, "holes," and "realistic," b) my response to your question about what you had ever said that asserted my instructor didn't know what he was doing.)

Moreover, you've either a) insistently polarized the discussion, b) consistently refused to credit what you've been told about other people's training, "on the ground," or c) immediately shifted the terms of your question/statement, so that what starts out as a claim that there is no groundfighting in kenpo immediately becomes a claim that there is no grappling in kenpo immediately becomes a claim that the opponent could still do... (insert escape or counter here) immediately becomes a claim that they do this better in BJJ. Please chack the posts, and you'll see it.

I think it's great that you're doing what you're doing. I simply have some questions, I don't think this has anything to do with what's "wrong," with kenpo, and I don't wish to do it myself. And before you sound off about how unprepared I'll be, it would seem I was prepared before I ever started kenpo. After all, I'm not dead. And as a result, I am simply not going to go try and fill in every, "hole," in my martial arts practice--of which, let me assure you, the stuff you recommend represents only one class.

Just to keep the ball rolling, though--do you really think that piling on more techniques from other systems will save you, should the Big Crunch come?

Mr. Billings, again, I don't quite agree with the way the discussion's been divided up into these polar opposites. But I liked your comments.

Thanks.

[MJS]

Robert- regarding your post. I am obviously not as fortunate as you or some of the others to be training under the inst. that you train under. The holes that I refer to...well, maybe those are the holes in my own training. I mention the ground, and all of a sudden the surge of negativity comes in. For everybody to talk bad about the ground, is really no different than me talking bad about your training. You mention doing your Kenpo tech on the ground. You mentioned doing one that was taken from snapping twig, I believe. When I commented on the exposure that it leaves for your arm, again, I got the negativity. Has anybody done these against a grappler? Maybe you have, maybe not. Does everybody need to learn grappling? NO. I use the term 'close minded', because it seems like every time myself or someone else mentions it, the response is, is that you will never end up on the ground. Well, that might be the case, but there is a first time for everything. I am simply making a suggestion. If you dont want to learn BJJ or any other art such as Judo, that is fine, but by you speaking badly of it, is really no different than me saying that you should do it! You constantly ask about my exp. and think that I know everything. Well, what is your exp. in that field? Do you have any? If so, do tell. You claim.."Who am I to judge you and your inst." Well, you are doing the same thing. Rather than asking questions and using this forum like it is supposed to be used, by sharing knowledge, it turns into a bashing session. Should you pile on more tech.? That is up to the individual person. If someone wants to do it, why do you look down upon them? I simply stated, when I made the first post, was that I have not seen ground work in Kenpo. If you do it at your school and you make it work, great. I"m happy for you. Are you going to tell me though, that you are totally prepared for every situation you will encounter? I know that I'm not prepared. Let me ask you this.. You talk about running away from a situation as a useful tool, which yes, it is. What if, while running, you fell down. Before you have a chance to get up and continue the running, your attacker gets on top of his downed victim and continues to beat the crap out of him. Don't you think a little grappling exp. will be usefull here?

Mike

[rmcrobertson]

Dear MJS:

This is hopeless. For whatever reason, you insist upon reading disagreements with your position, and questions about its logic, as "negativity," as, "bashing," as denials of "reality."

And, you insist on couching your arguments in terms that, whether or not you mean it, are really rather insulting.

I'd ask you to go back and actually read what I've written, but that won't help.

So I'm bowing out of this one: no more responses to your posts.

The discussion was interesting, however, and helped me think through a few things. For that, thanks for your help.

[MJS]

Well Robert, its a shame that you can't bring yourself down a few pegs and listen to other ideas that people have. But, like I always go back to..the closed mindedness...Everytime I make a post, suggestion, comment, or whatever, you always have something to say. You are on a one way road, with no other option but to go straight. You, due to being so stubborn, can't bring yourself to learn anything new or take a comment bad or good, from anybody. I have tried to explain that I am not perfect, and never said that I was. However, it is you, that always seem to have the last word..and that last word is usually a close minded one. Thanks for bowing out!


I have gone back and re read your first post to this thread...and you'll never guess what I saw...your own negativity towards any kind of change!
MJS

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Mike, Robert: We all have different experiences, objectives, and opinions here. You've both said some strong stuff and both made some good (and occassionaly not so good) points. I hope that we can continue friendly discussion and that if you two should ever meet that you don't fall to the ground and start biting each other. Seriously though, I've enjoyed talking/listening with both of you and I hope neither of you go away.

[rmcrobertson]

I think your post can speak for your ideas and approach, so I'll let that be the last word.

"Well Robert, its a shame that you can't bring yourself down a few pegs and listen to other ideas that people have. But, like I alwasy go back to..the closed mindedness...Everytime I make a post, suggestion, comment, or whatever, you always have something to say. You are on a one way road, with no other option but to go straight. You, due to being so stubborn, can't bring yourself to learn anything new or take a comment bad or good, from anybody. I have tried to explain that I am not perfect, and never said that I was. However, it is you, that always seem to have the last word..and that last word is usually a close minded one. Thanks for bowing out!

MJS"

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Boys! Stop it! Besides, I want to have the last word.

[twinkletoes]

yeah, let OFK have the last word!

Or me! :D

~TT

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Boys! Stop it! Besides, I want to have the last word.

LOL!! Sorry OFK! Funny thing here is that Rob must think that we are all robots and must do what he does. Opps...Wait a min...isnt that what he thinks I want everybody to do...drop their Kenpo and train like I do!!LOL!LOL! I have never said that, and never will say that. All I'm guily of is making a comment regarding the forum topic. Rob here, well, he thinks that everything I say is insulting...well, in this case, in this post, I guess it is!!! I guess his way of doing things is to just keep waiting and waiting, until maybe that day comes along when he 'sees the light at the end of the tunnel' Well, thats fine for him. but not everybody has to do that!!!! I forgot, Rob does the same things that he accuses me of....having all the answers. Well Rob, its unfortunatel that you see it like that. Just becuase I cross train--oopppss...I said that bad word again....he thinks that I am violating the Kenpo rules!! I"m not guilty of anything other than making a suggestion. And I stand firm that I never said that anybody has to follow me...only to look at all the options they have in front of them...if they want to do it..good,,if not, thats good too!

MJS

[MJS]

Funny thing here---look back to the first page of this thread....look at what Atlanta Kenpo says in his post. Funny how he said the same as me and gee, how is the one taking all the heat??? ME!! There are more people than you think on here that agree. Maybe they say it, and maybe they dont. I know that i say it and am proud of it!

MJS

[Kirk]

Originally posted by MJS
Funny thing here---look back to the first page of this thread....look at what Atlanta Kenpo says in his post. Funny how he said the same as me and gee, how is the one taking all the heat??? ME!! There are more people than you think on here that agree. Maybe they say it, and maybe they dont. I know that i say it and am proud of it!

MJS

Bully for you. But can you just leave the rest of the forum alone, and not make every....single...post a fricken grappling discussion.
All that there is to say about it has been said, time and time again. Can't people talk about kenpo without someone coming in and going "you'd better learn to grapple or your art will wither away". Let it go for Christ's sake.

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kirk
Bully for you. But can you just leave the rest of the forum alone, and not make every....single...post a fricken grappling discussion.
All that there is to say about it has been said, time and time again. Can't people talk about kenpo without someone coming in and going "you'd better learn to grapple or your art will wither away". Let it go for Christ's sake.

Funny thing Kirk--Look who is talking about grappling right now...YOU!!! Listen closely...I have not said that we have to abandon Kenpo to learn BJJ, just to keep the door open to the possibilities that you might end up there. You guys have a very bad habit of turning other peoples words into your own statements. The things that are coming out of your mouth are just the twisted thoughts that you want everybody to hear. You're trying to take my training ideas and make them sound like I say I have the best way of training...well, not the case..very far from the truth. You guys jsut cant let it die though...I have said that i want to get on with some decent discussions and its guys like you Kirk that just keep the ball rolling....Why dont YOU "let it go!!"

MJS

[Kirk]

Originally posted by MJS
Funny thing Kirk--Look who is talking about grappling right now...YOU!!! Listen closely...I have not said that we have to abandon Kenpo to learn BJJ, just to keep the door open to the possibilities that you might end up there. You guys have a very bad habit of turning other peoples words into your own statements. The things that are coming out of your mouth are just the twisted thoughts that you want everybody to hear. You're trying to take my training ideas and make them sound like I say I have the best way of training...well, not the case..very far from the truth. You guys jsut cant let it die though...I have said that i want to get on with some decent discussions and its guys like you Kirk that just keep the ball rolling....Why dont YOU "let it go!!"

MJS

I'm not the one participating in FOUR .. count them FOUR seperate threads about it!! What OTHER threads have you participated in ???? Pretty darn close to zero???

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

From Kirk's Martial Talk Signature....

"1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow. "

1500 lessons ago, everyone "knew" that Kenpo was the center of the universe. 500 lessons ago, everyone "knew" that Kenpo practitioners would never question what future of Kenpo was. And 15 posts ago, you "knew" that you were on the right path with your Kenpo practice. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
From Kirk's Martial Talk Signature....


1500 lessons ago, everyone "knew" that Kenpo was the center of the universe. 500 lessons ago, everyone "knew" that Kenpo practitioners would never question what future of Kenpo was. And 15 posts ago, you "knew" that you were on the right path with your Kenpo practice. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.


And your point is what? I've said one thing about this whole subject, and that was conveying my one experience with a grappler. I'm a purple belt, I'm just focusing on learning the curriculum right now, thank you. I'll worry about cross training later. But OFK .. how about going outside the box and just discussing kenpo? Instead of beating a dead horse? Maybe the best way you can get the converts your seeking is by sharing the kenpo knowledge you claim to have, and earning people's respect for your knowledge? I'll bet more people would be willing to hear what you have to say once you've proven that you have other knowledge and experience besides getting your butt kicked by a grappler.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk: Ouch that hurt, but you've made a very good point. I should talk more about my Kenpo experiences. OK, I will, but they won't add much to the other Kenpo experiences and technical info you've seen here. I did start doing Kenpo in 1973 and did get my 3rd Degree in 1993--learning the entire curriculum in my Kenpo branch. My instructor (now retired) recieved his rank from both Ed Parker and Al Tracy before those two split and finalized the curriculums we see today. I did seek to learn more than Kenpo during my first twenty years in our art studying some Shotokan (really helped my punches, front kicks, and explosion), some Escrima (learned some really useful club & knife defenses & techniques), and a lot of Aiki-Jujitsu (learned some stand-up grappling, takedowns, and finishing holds that were really complementary to Kenpo).

But I am not a Kenpo superman or guru -- I've never claimed to be one. I won't even claim to be any good at Kenpo (or BJJ or anything else), just old and experienced and opinionated. Now there are many many Kenpo people who understand and can explain/do Kenpo much much better than I can. So then since I'm not a Kenpo hot-shot, how can I add value to the Martialtalk discussion? By bringing something in from the outside. By throwing some new spices into the soup.

---taking a deep breath---

Now, you know a little more about me and I know that you are a Kenpo Purple Belt with nearly 3,600 posts on Martialtalk. So, I will constructively opine about a good personal path you might want to take: Kenpo is good stuff. Possibly the best stuff. You should continue on your Kenpo path. You should learn all the Kenpo material available to you. You should continue learning and improving your Kenpo until you have achieved the highest rank and level of expertise you can: 3rd degree or 5th degree depending on whether you are on a 24 or 16 technique curriculum, higher if you want to more.

Then, when you've learned everything that is available to you, you should do some introspection: what should you do next? Should you learn more Kenpo? Should you go back to college? Should you spend some more time with your family? Should you learn another martial art or another sport? Should you focus on your career? You will need to ask yourself those questions when you learn all of your EPAK curriculum and come to the next fork in the road. I have done ALL those things in the last 10 years. I discovered for myself is that I don't know everything there is to know, that I am not a martial arts hot-shot, that my 3rd degree black belt makes me a better person, but it doesn't make me invincible, and that there is a big wide world out there with a lot more going on than what we do inside our dojos. One of those things I discovered was grappling and I am suggesting to Kenpo people that they shouldn't ignore it. As for you, right now, you are on a good path and I won't try and disuade you from it.

Now as to the specific point of my last post. I do sincerely hope that you can take your signature quotation seriously. I suspect that you do since you've made several thousand posts. I hope you can question your assumptions, question authority, seek additional knowledge, and do so without disrespect to those who disagree with you--even when you find them rude and annoying.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Now as to the specific point of my last post. I do sincerely hope that you can take your signature quotation seriously. I suspect that you do since you've made several thousand posts. I hope you can question your assumptions, question authority, seek additional knowledge, and do so without disrespect to those who disagree with you--even when you find them rude and annoying.

Point made, point taken. But when there's nothing else going on in the kenpo forum here, somethings wrong. This used to be the most active kenpo forum out there. Now many have resorted to possibly only lurking, or posting on various other forums. A history quite common to kenpo forums. Some have resorted to older, archaic, less organized forums. Much less sharing going on these days (and it WAS before summer rolled around that this started happening). The most active current threads in the kenpo forum are all discussing grappling right now, and it's been that way for all too long.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk: I agree. The grappling debate has been going on a long time. I try and stay off the Kenpo Technical forum to let others talk about Kenpo techniques there. I do think that there is validity to discussing fighting strategy and training strategy on the general Kenpo forum. It just seems like the same people (myself included) are into rehashing.

[Bob Hubbard]

Couple of suggestions:

A long time ago we were doing technique breakdowns and comparisions. I believe it was Kirk who also was posting walkthrus and stiring the discussion on variations from school to school, etc.

We are looking for leading Kenpoists to interview, why not invite them to pop in and get involved?

The keys here I think is the friendly part, and when politics and ego mix, it can get ugly. At least 2 leaders have said they avoid all forums for just that reason. I'd like this to be the exception. :)

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kirk: I agree. The grappling debate has been going on a long time. I try and stay off the Kenpo Technical forum to let others talk about Kenpo techniques there. I do think that there is validity to discussing fighting strategy and training strategy on the general Kenpo forum. It just seems like the same people (myself included) are into rehashing.

Good point OFK. I do think that we all need to chill a little and start having some good conversations!! We all need to put our egos aside and learn to converse rather than fight. However, we all tend, myself included, to get defensive about something we like. We just need to keep ourselves in check and not let it get the best of us!

MJS

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Mike, Robert: We all have different experiences, objectives, and opinions here. You've both said some strong stuff and both made some good (and occassionaly not so good) points. I hope that we can continue friendly discussion and that if you two should ever meet that you don't fall to the ground and start biting each other. Seriously though, I've enjoyed talking/listening with both of you and I hope neither of you go away.

OFK--Thanks! I've enjoyed chatting with you also. Don't worry, I won't be leaving any time soon!

MJS

[ATACX GYM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NovwYppWGyM

[Inkspill]

Being on the ground is just another adjustment, it surprises me how big of a deal some people make it and that they want to go to the ground.

[MJS]

WOW!! This thread was dug back up. This is an oldie, thats for sure. LOL.

Anyways, I dont think its that people want to go to the ground, I think that its that some people feel that they'll never end up there. Amazing how many mind readers are out there. LOL. I mean, we're that good of a martial artist, that we'll know that we'll never make a mistake, we'll never trip, stumble, and so on?

As its been said many times already, and speaking for myself, I've never suggested that people stop Kenpo and take up Judo or BJJ, but instead to simply look at those arts, and get enough of a solid understand that in the event you do end up there, that you wont be a fish out of water. I've yet to see, with the exception of a few clips, any solid Kenpo on the ground. There are a few Kenpo grappling clips that've been posted. Some are good, some are great and some not so great.

[Inkspill]

sorry if I rezzed this. I thought I saw a new reply and just went in with my view.

I didn't read the whole thread lol, but figured I would post my thoughts. the direction of my post was more toward what I hear generally when the topic comes up, not necessarily what was on here lol : ) so my bad on that haha : )

I think it's good to check out what other arts focus on, how they handle various situations, and for inspiration on what others have already done the road work on.

I'm not sure how "Kenpo specific" my ground work would look, having wrestled for some time back in the day and having a bit of exposure to BJJ. generally lots of claws, eye gouges, pinchers, bites, my goal is to get away, escape safely. I guess my point was more addressing when I've seen some martial artists talk about "self defense", end up on the ground, or execute a takedown, then jump into some extensive guard passing and then hyperextend limbs or work a choke while on the ground. I would want to spend the least amount of time as possible on the ground, get up and get away basically. I see your point though, if I hadn't wrestled my perspective would be different, or at least my skill set.

[MJS]

sorry if I rezzed this. I thought I saw a new reply and just went in with my view.

No problem. :) I had actually forgotten about this thread, and thought I was seeing things when I saw it again. :)


I didn't read the whole thread lol, but figured I would post my thoughts. the direction of my post was more toward what I hear generally when the topic comes up, not necessarily what was on here lol : ) so my bad on that haha : )

I think it's good to check out what other arts focus on, how they handle various situations, and for inspiration on what others have already done the road work on.

I'm not sure how "Kenpo specific" my ground work would look, having wrestled for some time back in the day and having a bit of exposure to BJJ. generally lots of claws, eye gouges, pinchers, bites, my goal is to get away, escape safely. I guess my point was more addressing when I've seen some martial artists talk about "self defense", end up on the ground, or execute a takedown, then jump into some extensive guard passing and then hyperextend limbs or work a choke while on the ground. I would want to spend the least amount of time as possible on the ground, get up and get away basically. I see your point though, if I hadn't wrestled my perspective would be different, or at least my skill set.

Just to clarify *my* views on the ground. My apologies if I wasnt clear. I'm certainly not suggesting that we turn the ground into a 30min UFC Gracie hug-fest. :D My goal when learning the ground game, is simply the basics. Nothing fancy, not interested in learning 50 ways to pass guard. My goal is find a handful of escapes, counters, locks, chokes, etc., drill the hell out of them, repeatedly, and go with that. Of course, the goal is to get back up....I'm the first one to say that. :) Just learn enough to survive, until you can get up. I'm not interested in looking for a submission, but, if an arm presents itself, sure, I'd take it and hopefully go for a break, and get the hell back to my feet. LOL.

Of course, while drilling a specific escape, say from the guard, yes, I'm looking for ways to fit my Kenpo in. All the nasty things, ie: the bites, pinches, gouges, and so on. But, in addition to those, I want to have a plan b, in the event the 'nasty' stuff isnt working or I'm not able to apply it to its fullest.

[ATACX GYM]

Being on the ground is just another adjustment, it surprises me how big of a deal some people make it and that they want to go to the ground.

All props due to MJS and guys and gals like him who had the common sense to point out the need for and mandatory utility with the use of grappling in any comprehensively skilled martial artist's grab bag of skills and techniques.I mean,I read the comments on this thread and marvel at some of the ignorance dispalyed by some posters.I understand PREFERENCE.Hell,some people don't wanna learn judo bjj aikido or whatever no matter what.Cool.But do you REALLY think that you'll pull off Captured Twigs vs someone who knows what he's doing or who has a decided physical advantage on you (especially coupled with the psyhological advantage of surprise) and you DON'T practice grappling in that scenario against a fully resisting opponent? If you do...you're opinion is disproven by literally the entire history of combat in martial arts.Just too many of us didn't know it.I didn't know it for 3/4 of my time studying martial arts.The difference is? The FIRST TIMEI was exposed to the power of grappling,I jumped right on it with the full intention to integrate it into my arsenal via effective training. I study judo wrestling bjj aikido hapkido Ungala ground fighting and more...and I'm STILL a kenpoist.


I can't tell you how much I agree with you,Inskpill and MJS.I mean...does anybody THIS CENTURY actually TRULY think that you WON'T grapple and/or hit the ground in a real knockdown dragout scrap? Even if it's due to a STRIKE,SOMEbody WILL hit the ground in that sort of high risk situation. Grappling occurs standing up EVEN MORE than it does on the ground,we were just too blinded in the USA for too long of a time to see it and recognize it.The sneak attack from the back when a mugger flashes his knife or gun on you,or when a rapist or grabs a lady and drags her into a alley to rob and rape her.What aboutthe abusive spouse or bf or gf striking suddenly from close range? For Chrissakes there are MANY examples of grapplng in Kenpo like CAPTURED TWIGS from the lowest belt ranks to the highest.Serial killers like the horrid creature's work that the NYPD is only just uncovering today attack in the grappling range.Whenever you're Within Arm's Reach likeThe sad truth is that too many people prior to the Gracie Revolution thought so...and I was among them.Yep,I cop to it.Guess what? The Gracies weren't the only the first or even the best advocates of grappling in the U.S.A. (Catchwrestlers and judoka,Olympic wrestlers and NCAA wrestlers,hapkido,aikido,Ernie Boggs' excellent but overlooked sport jiujitsu,Pankration,favela Capoeira Ungala groundfighting,dumog...hell,Bruce Lee's opening scene of Enter The Dragon with Sammo Hung...you get the picture) but what the Gracies,their Gracies In Action,and the first installments of the UFC did was reintroduce the idea of grappling and ground grappling to us in a way that forces us to realize that grappling happens all the time,we were just being too thickheaded to admit it. Boxers clinch and tie up.Karate guy and kungfu guys do the same (Kenpo's checks,kenpo's,isshin-ryu's,shotokan's,kyukushin's,goju's,capoeira's,Mua y Boran's,etc's strikes footsweeps and throws and stomps and strikes to downed opponents,gungfu's midrange strikes and wing chun like blocks and pulls,not to mention the practice of using stances to unbalance opponents,you get the point).

So training in the grappling range makes you proficient in grappling but doesn't mean you're abandoning Kenpo.In fact,Kenpo has a decent amount of standup grappling,so learn it.And learn the other stuff that gives you more tools to defeat your opponents faster and more efficiently with your Kenpo...and it's STILL Kenpo.Don't forget our roots go back to kenpoJUJUTSU. Aight then.Peace.

[K831]

Just to clarify some "semantics"... In terms of self defense, I don't think anyone needs to learn to grapple, I think they need to learn to ground fight.

Lets keep in mind, they are different! :)

Also fellas, by way of encouragement.... lets not just work in our "dirty" striking on the ground, lets position and move to draw our weapons, i.e. any edged weapon or firearm we may carry!

[Carol]

I disagree. I think grappling can be one of the most important skills one can have in self-defense.

Not every encounter will merit a toss-em-on-the-ground-and-smash-em-to-a-bloody-pulp response.

[Inkspill]

my weapons are all natural. ; )



Just to clarify some "semantics"... In terms of self defense, I don't think anyone needs to learn to grapple, I think they need to learn to ground fight.

Lets keep in mind, they are different! :)

Also fellas, by way of encouragement.... lets not just work in our "dirty" striking on the ground, lets position and move to draw our weapons, i.e. any edged weapon or firearm we may carry!

[ATACX GYM]

I disagree.I think grappling can be one of the most important skills one can have in self-defense.

Not every encounter will merit a toss-em-on-the-ground-and-smash-em-to-a-bloody-pulp response.


Not sure what you disagree with but I agree with your post from here


I think grappling can be one of the most important skills one can have in self-defense.

on to the end of your post.Yaaay Carol!

And I completely agree with K831's distinction between ground fighting and ground grappling and the need to be aware of,deploy and thwart weapons while groundfighting.

[kenpojitsu13]

I started my training in jujitsu several years ago. The reason I started is because I work in a prison. I needed to learn to protect myself. I enjoyed the ground work that jujitsu gave and in a one-to-one environment this works well. The problem I had which I quickly realized is that I had to worry about the 100 other inmates when it was time to go to the ground to handle the one idiot acting up. I enrolled in tracy's kenpo to learn the stand up game. I cross-train in both so I am comfortable on the ground or standing up. Obviously, for most of you on here, you don't have this problem. But, let me tell you first hand it is this scenario that you truly find what works when all hell breaks loose. I prefer kenpo over jujitsu because the fight can be ended quickly with the rapid striking ability to vital target areas. Jujitsu is more of a chess match on the ground that can take time (that I may not have). But, I do need to know how to get back up on my feet and this is where the jujitsu comes in handy.

[ATACX GYM]

I started my training in jujitsu several years ago. The reason I started is because I work in a prison. I needed to learn to protect myself. I enjoyed the ground work that jujitsu gave and in a one-to-one environment this works well. The problem I had which I quickly realized is that I had to worry about the 100 other inmates when it was time to go to the ground to handle the one idiot acting up. I enrolled in tracy's kenpo to learn the stand up game. I cross-train in both so I am comfortable on the ground or standing up. Obviously, for most of you on here, you don't have this problem. But, let me tell you first hand it is this scenario that you truly find what works when all hell breaks loose. I prefer kenpo over jujitsu because the fight can be ended quickly with the rapid striking ability to vital target areas. Jujitsu is more of a chess match on the ground that can take time (that I may not have). But, I do need to know how to get back up on my feet and this is where the jujitsu comes in handy.


I train a number of corrections officers Sheriffs and L.E.O.s who've expressed almost the exact same sentiment to me.Street cops want to end the altercation quickly too in order to minimize the possibility of a situation escalating into a riot or giving time to a bad guy's homeboyz to gather and retaliate on his behalf. I also worked high risk security for years and found myself neck deep in riots and sudden unsolicited shooting sprees,one of which happened at a medical marijuana center in L.A.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swpRPoq05Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvvApTnNpOE

Attacking Mace while ground grappling and groundfighting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NovwYppWGyM

Kenpojitsu,I have lots of techniques like this and DVDs full of this stuff mating kenpo,judo,wrestling,bjj,catchwrestling,kali,CQB and all from SD positions and scenarios that you will find useful.I'm in the midst of putting together a no BS DVD specifically aimed at security professionals that offer techniques,solo and partner drills,exercises and more for their environs.The techniques are liability sensitive and have the protection of the peace officer as paramount...but they're VERY effective.Conflicts will be over with in 1-5 seconds. In the interim,if you wish (and the invite goes to all on MartialTalk.com)...please subscribe to my Youtube Channel.The link for it is in my sig.

[ATACX GYM]

Being on the ground is just another adjustment, it surprises me how big of a deal some people make it and that they want to go to the ground.


You are not the only one looking at this thread ten years after the first UFCs and Muay Thai made it clear to USA martial artists that you BETTER know your stuff in the clinch and on the ground and just giving posters the great big "foolish mortal" smh look.

[Inkspill]

I don't know what 'smh' stands for.

I agree that we need to be competent in any grappling situation. I was more addressing the attitude I've seen expressed by some when they say, ok, no finish this technique by dropping down into an armbar, etc. I've heard it expressed at an old school I used to go to, and by some other martial artists from various disciplines.

I don't think it's such a huge deal to use Kenpo on the ground or standing, I've heard some treat it like OMG, I've never thought of that before! that sort of stuff when they see somebody apply leverage on the ground that the person previously only used standing up. it's still fighting, wherever it happens to be. anyway.

[MJS]

Just to clarify some "semantics"... In terms of self defense, I don't think anyone needs to learn to grapple, I think they need to learn to ground fight.

Lets keep in mind, they are different! :)

True, but IMO, I think it'd help if people had a basic understanding of grappling.


Also fellas, by way of encouragement.... lets not just work in our "dirty" striking on the ground, lets position and move to draw our weapons, i.e. any edged weapon or firearm we may carry!

Good points, no pun intended. :D If your life is on the line, and you have the chance to pull out a weapon, I say go for it. :)

[James Kovacich]

I started my training in jujitsu several years ago. The reason I started is because I work in a prison. I needed to learn to protect myself. I enjoyed the ground work that jujitsu gave and in a one-to-one environment this works well. The problem I had which I quickly realized is that I had to worry about the 100 other inmates when it was time to go to the ground to handle the one idiot acting up. I enrolled in tracy's kenpo to learn the stand up game. I cross-train in both so I am comfortable on the ground or standing up. Obviously, for most of you on here, you don't have this problem. But, let me tell you first hand it is this scenario that you truly find what works when all hell breaks loose. I prefer kenpo over jujitsu because the fight can be ended quickly with the rapid striking ability to vital target areas. Jujitsu is more of a chess match on the ground that can take time (that I may not have). But, I do need to know how to get back up on my feet and this is where the jujitsu comes in handy.
Not all Jujitsu is groundwork. BJJ and Trad.JJ are better "together."

[kenpojitsu13]

[quote=James Kovacich;1384418]Not all Jujitsu is groundwork. BJJ and Trad.JJ are better "together."[/quote


Thanks for clarifying for me, I agree both would be beneficial together.

[ATACX GYM]

My variants of CAPTURED TWIGS



CAP TWIG 1

http://youtu.be/6swpRPoq05Q


CAP TWIG 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xevT5TPfcGE&feature=channel_video_title


CAPT TWIG 3

http://youtu.be/AKAoR0eDa8I