Hey,

Bruce Lee is hands down the fastest martial artist on the silver screen. What do you guys think? His flicks show his amazin’ speed. I was checkin out Enter the Dragon last night and kept rewinding the scene where he takes the villains claw. Super tight! Another guy that is tearin’ up the martial arts scene is Mark Darcascos. He just came out in that French film, Brotherhood of the Wolf and he is off the hook! I was checkin out the fight scenes at www.13thstreet.com/site/common/view-content.jsp?id=d9348-cb6db-c06f7-fdd64&section=Clips&R_N=0203 and , man, this guy can get down. Have you guys heard of this movie? I guess its supposed to be somekinda horror flick. Check it out.

Peace

--Moviefan4

There's information on the film here (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0237534); evidently Mr. Dacascos plays the star's character's "native American friend Mani" in 18th century France. A user writes:

Its a period costume horror martial-arts werewolf movie and surprisingly all those pieces work together provided you don't concentrate too hard. Why no one has previously made a period costume horror martial-arts werewolf movie before is a mystery, but I expect plenty of imitations in the future.

Speaking of Bruce Lee, a post (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=943) in the Wing Chun forum had a link (http://www.wingtsun-combat.com/) to a page that had a link to a picture of his gravesite (http://www.centrimedia.com/leegrave/brucfar.html).

If you get a chance to see Brotherhood of the Wolf, definately make it. It has a very different feel than much of the Hollywood films, more serious, more.... dramatic. I was happy not to see an annoying comedy relief actor that seems to pop up in every action movie these days. I just hope you don't mind sub-titles.

Oh, and Dacascos has been "tearin it up" for a while now. Take a look at Only the Strong (at least 10 years old) and Drive. After the movie (Brotherhood) I asked my friend how old he though Mark was, and he thought he was in his mid-twenties, he's actually in his mid-thirties. (Of course if you want to see someone who is incredibly well preserved, you should see his father Al).

So sorry for the movie review in the JKD forum!

Lamont

I think Jet Li is incredibly fast, and since he's smaller than Bruce, he most likely is faster as well. Also of interesting note, Ali could punch faster than Bruce. Ali clocked in at 1/20th of a second, Bruce clocked at 1/8th of a second.

Hello all,

I once recall reading somewhere that Bruce Lee said that Steve Sanders (now Steve Muhammad) of the Black Karate Federation had the fastest hands he'd ever seen. Also I think that Bruce Lee's speed was as much based on his ability to read his opponent as well as the ability to effortly flow from one technique to the next as it was on raw hand speed.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Being small has nothing to do with speed.

jmdrake is correct in that Lee's speed was partly based on his ability to read his opponent and also perceptual speed, which is tied to reading the opponent and also involves deceptive hand placement, footwork, and timing.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Being small has nothing to do with speed.


Sure it does. Small people have a lot easier time with speed than big people.

Originally posted by migo



Sure it does. Small people have a lot easier time with speed than big people.

well being small has nothing to do with speed directly, other factors related to being small can alter speed. For example if you have short arms you don't have to move your arm as far to get a punch out and back.. if you have less muscle on your arms there is less mass to accelerate/de-accelerate.. and being small you will have an overall higher strength to weight ratio than being big if both groups work out with speed and strength in mind (as aposed to size). however if you look at the rate of acceleration of taller person's technique assumming their strength to weight ratio is the same (basicly an elongated version of the shorter person) they can accelerate their hands and feet just as fast (they just have to travel further). And if punching from the same range (lets say close to max range for the shorter guy) the taller/longer guy might actualy be faster because if he doesn't have to extend as far his muscles may be in a stronger position (kenesiologicaly(sp) speaking) longer. I think it may be reversed for kicking though.

Not sure on this one but I don't think migo is saying that smaller people are faster but that they have an easier time with it. If that is it I would have to agree on one level.
1) many larger people relay on their power and strength. OK, that may work out from time to time but speed and strength is deadly. I happen to believe that a good, fast big man is hard to beat.

2) much like speed, those who rely on power have a harder time learning and developing sensitivity. Or the ability to respond to pressure.

3) Now, for those with muscular mass who work on speed, Sweeper is correct in asserting that muscle drives speed. In essence it is the horse power. A fast person who begins weight training will get faster if theyt continue to train as usual in regard to speed. Likewise muscular people can become deadly fast if they train to do so. Weight training also enhances hand trapping.
Good topic.
Hey Chtu. You a big guy or what ?

I believe that speed is power. Unfortunately speed is not my thing--I'm not that big but I was never very fast. I've worked on it. My "speed" is really agility/desterity developed through practice.

well when someone uses the term "power" they are usualy refering to the amount of force someone can generate in a punch, force = mass x acceleration, so if someone's bigger they have more mass, but if you aren't going to increase your mass the only way to get more power is to add speed. But also the physics of a punch are kinda odd because you are trying to shift your body weight into the person through your arm, you obviously can't do this 100% so biomechanics play a big role, so technique adds power too.. Also some people who hit fast don't put their body behind it, it's not that speed inhibits your ability to to put your body into a strike just for some reason alot of people don't.

What I meant in my last post was if a larger person trains mainly for speed (as aposed to mass and strength) they can become realy fast, as fast as a lighter weight fighter most likely.

I don't consider myself a big guy. About 5'9" and around 200lbs when I'm not watching what I eat. I consider myself to be fairly quick, but nothing extraordinary. Again, I think a lot of it is perceptual.

However, in my earlier training days, I used to train for speed, ie: numerous reps of fast jabbing and punching, punching at candles, etc. But, I think one of the biggest things that helped with my speed was my instructor's insistence on drilling basics...punch after punch from a horse stance, kick after kick, and so forth. All the concentration on basics trained me to eliminate extraneous movements, which is another factor when training for speed.

Bah. Just got back from seeing Ep.II (in digital!), so I'm not thinking straight. Doubt I made a lick o' sense.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by sweeper

well when someone uses the term "power" they are usualy refering to the amount of force someone can generate in a punch, force = mass x acceleration, so if someone's bigger they have more mass, but if you aren't going to increase your mass the only way to get more power is to add speed. But also the physics of a punch are kinda odd because you are trying to shift your body weight into the person through your arm, you obviously can't do this 100% so biomechanics play a big role, so technique adds power too.. Also some people who hit fast don't put their body behind it, it's not that speed inhibits your ability to to put your body into a strike just for some reason alot of people don't.

What I meant in my last post was if a larger person trains mainly for speed (as aposed to mass and strength) they can become realy fast, as fast as a lighter weight fighter most likely.

Increasing speed is not the only way to increase power in a strike. You can also put more "body" behind it i.e. Jack Dempsey's drop step punch.

But also the physics of a punch are kinda odd because you are trying to shift your body weight into the person through your arm, you obviously can't do this 100% so biomechanics play a big role, so technique adds power too..

That's part of what I meant but I guess I wrote it out more like I was reffering to the biomechanics of a particular technique.

Originally posted by Blindside
(Of course if you want to see someone who is incredibly well preserved, you should see his father Al).
SoLamont [/B]
.................................................. .......................
I trained WHKD under Sigung Al in Colorado. He was awsome then and still is.
As far as Mark goes he was also great in "the Crow" TV series


Gene Gabel

I love The Crow. Brandon Lee still did it the best but after his death Mark does the best job with it. (Vincent Perez also did a good job seeing as he's a dancer and not a martial artist).

He sure was fast, but impossible to tell if he was/is the fastest one: we do not know all the others unknow martial artists. It is like when I heard "(A fighters name) is the best fighter in the world." One maybe the best "ring" fighter or the best "competition" fighter, but not the best in the world. Maybe there's a unknown guy that lives, I dont know, in Japan or anywhere in the worlds and that his martial art skills are incredible, even better that mma fighter,s who knows.

-Bushido

to say someone is the best fighter in the world is kinda like saying someone is the best artist in the world.. not very specific (how would you compare a cinamatographer to a musition?) now if you give a more specific aspect of fighting, like speed, or power, or a sport like MMA or roundifghting.. makes it easyer but you still have specifics.. bruce lee was fast but ali's hand speed was faster.. doesn't mean ali could kick (havn't a clue). but in the case of a sport I think you can pritty much see who is the best. to be good at any sport (including a fighting sport) you have to practice it.. you can't practice BJJ for 10 years than just go strate to boxing and be a champ.. and if you compete in a sport and you are the best you will win.. if you win you will be known.

I heard that a faster film, PLUS having Jet Li slow down in his
M.A. scenes were necessary to even seeing Jet Li move.
I saw the director of Lethal Weapon 4 saying that some shots
in his action scenes were cut out, because he was so fast, you
didn't see him move (on film). Of course that could've been a
publicity stunt.

Originally posted by Kirk

I heard that a faster film, PLUS having Jet Li slow down in his
M.A. scenes were necessary to even seeing Jet Li move.
I saw the director of Lethal Weapon 4 saying that some shots
in his action scenes were cut out, because he was so fast, you
didn't see him move (on film). Of course that could've been a
publicity stunt.

The same was said of Bruce Lee, particularly in the filming of the Green Hornet episodes. I've read a few accounts where they said they eventually had to speed up the cameras for Lee since at normal speed, he'd walk up to a person, there'd be a blur or nothing at all, and that person would fall or fly. By recording at a higher speed and then slowing the camera playback down to normal speeds, the camera was able to capture the motion and then play it back so we could actually see what Lee was doing. Basically, speeding a camera up during recording slows the action down when it's played back at normal speeds.

In contrast, you could look at a Van Dumme movie where either the camera has been slowed down and/or the playback is sped up to make him look faster than he really is.

For some martial arts movie geek fun, get the Enter the Dragon DVD and watch Lee's fight scene with Bob Wall (Ohara)...particularly the beginning techniques from the reference point. Watch that sequence frame-by-frame and see how many moves Lee really does. A good example of trapping hands, by the way.

Cthulhu

you can get some pritty high speed film, so I doubt jet li had to slow down, it was probably more an issue of how the director wanted the fight to look.

Originally posted by Kirk

I heard that a faster film, PLUS having Jet Li slow down in his
M.A. scenes were necessary to even seeing Jet Li move.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was saying simialr things about himself and Bruce Lee in the documentary on Game of Death on AMC last night. The footage they showed, claiming it was done at normal speed, certainly looked choppy--Bruce Lee's movements looked jerky, I presume because of this effect.

bruce lee was and always will be the best..i think 2 people who could equal his speed..and only his speed..would be donnie yuen and jet li

I believe some one mentioned that Bruce Lee's speed was due to his small size, and the same was said about Jet Li. If that was true, the one we should all look out for would be Mini-ME :D LOL

Originally posted by migo

I think Jet Li is incredibly fast, and since he's smaller than Bruce, he most likely is faster as well. Also of interesting note, Ali could punch faster than Bruce. Ali clocked in at 1/20th of a second, Bruce clocked at 1/8th of a second.
Ali is by far fast, but Ali came after Bruce. And Bruce was told to slow down because the cameras couldn't pick it up. Nowadays, even the crappiest of TV's run on a 60Hz cycle.

Jet Li is not faster than Lee. Simple as that.

Originally posted by migo



Sure it does. Small people have a lot easier time with speed than big people.
You are partly right. In terms of physics, you are about 20% right. Agility has much more to do with size, and agility is closely related to speed but not the same.

Originally posted by sweeper

well when someone uses the term "power" they are usualy refering to the amount of force someone can generate in a punch, force = mass x acceleration, so if someone's bigger they have more mass, but if you aren't going to increase your mass the only way to get more power is to add speed. But also the physics of a punch are kinda odd because you are trying to shift your body weight into the person through your arm, you obviously can't do this 100% so biomechanics play a big role, so technique adds power too.. Also some people who hit fast don't put their body behind it, it's not that speed inhibits your ability to to put your body into a strike just for some reason alot of people don't.

What I meant in my last post was if a larger person trains mainly for speed (as aposed to mass and strength) they can become realy fast, as fast as a lighter weight fighter most likely.

Force does equal mass x acceleration
But power equals force x speed

Also, there are many more factors. First of all, maximum force is not really from mass, or then bodybuilders would have tons of power but in reality, fall short to say, powerlifters who go for strength rather than mass. But strength does not equal power either. Strength is just one small component of power. Mass is another small component in a way but in physics, less important than strength which isn't really important anyway if you take in account of striking power in humans. A semi hits harder than a Corvette going at 50mph, but a Corvette can go much faster, is more agile and handles better, and a semi would have a hard time hitting a Corvette in chicken situations (if you outmanuever it).

More important factors of power for striking (in relation to human anatomy) is technique, using your hips, legs, everything in one swift motion.

Actually, by twisting you hip and using footwork, you are increasing the mass (ie using your whole body mass vs just the arm along) that drives your fist to the target.

But power equals force x speed? Haven't heard that before..

factors that play into the power of a punch? total force (momentum pluss follow through strength) that means both mass and speed as well as strength play into it, however technique is your ability to optimise your maximum potential, you can hit with 1/10th of your strength and unless you have ten times the potential of a guy hitting with 100% you aren't gona have anymore power.

Bruce Lee was quick don't get me wrong but he also had a lot of percieved speed. He didn't telegraph his techniques very much so there was a lot less distance to travel as well as there being a lot fewer signals (to pick up) that he was throwing a technique. He was also able to read other peoples signs amazingly well giving him the ability to seem faster than he was.

Just Some Thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

Originally posted by sweeper

But power equals force x speed? Haven't heard that before..

factors that play into the power of a punch? total force (momentum pluss follow through strength) that means both mass and speed as well as strength play into it, however technique is your ability to optimise your maximum potential, you can hit with 1/10th of your strength and unless you have ten times the potential of a guy hitting with 100% you aren't gona have anymore power.
Strength isn't the way for instance about how much weight you can put up, but the force behind it. Of course, one might see them very closely related but in reality, the strongest man in the world (for some exercises) may hit weaker than someone like Lee.

One common mistake is that strength determines power. They look at Ali who never took anyone down with his jab vs. someone like Foreman who did knock people down with his jab. However, Ali's technique which can determine how much force isn't behind it wasn't really set for power but for speed. To get more power, you HAVE TO HIT FAST, but it takes more time to set up the mechanics. For instance, a jab is faster but less powerful than a straight.

But if you can't hit 'fast', you won't hit very hard. Fast as in explosive movement.

Oh yeah, Jet Li is nowhere near as fast as Lee.

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Ali is by far fast, but Ali came after Bruce. And Bruce was told to slow down because the cameras couldn't pick it up. Nowadays, even the crappiest of TV's run on a 60Hz cycle.

Jet Li is not faster than Lee. Simple as that.

These days, you would be wrong! Jet Li is faster, mainly coz he's still moving, and Bruce is worm food...:D

for head strikes weight and strength mean next to nothing but for body shots they mean so much more than speed, its alot more complicated than 'power = speed x mass' because the body moves in different ways for example:
a super fast punch(like alis jab) with very little weight or strength behind is not gonna hurt much at all if aimed at softer parts such as the stomach but against the head it will hurt like hell, similarly

a weighty punch with lots of strength behind it will seem like a push if delivered to the head but it will hurt alot more if delivered tto the stomach.

have you ever been hit my someone who only punches air (alot of TKD pratitioners for example) in the face it hurts but in the body its like gnats no pain atall because there is no followthrough, followthrough comes from weight and strength both of which are absent in this example

it is impossible to compare speed between jet li and bruce lee but today (2003) i am guessing jet li is faster cause bruce is dead

Bruce IS NOT DEAD! He is just trying to be difficult! It's all part of expressing his "own personal JKD". :) People everywhere are just dying to try it!

The punches to the body, at my Do Jang, are like gnats, gnats riding bricks! As far as power goes, take an object the size of your arm, from elbow to knuckles, that has similar mass density as bone (2x4 comes to mind for my hand / arm) put a hand guard on it and have a partner toss it at MEDIUM speed, end first, into your Liver 13 point, Spleen 16 point or Solar Plexus. I have ENDED a few matches, while wearing hand guards and pulling my punches, "tapping" those three areas. My partners doubled over for a few minutes. These guys were all bigger and are not soft by any means. Yes, I know you were not sayinng ALL TKD. Accuracy is PRIME. Good bare knuckle fighters, before gloves, punched mostly to the body because of the "NODDER" tactic. A "nodder" was leaning the head forward so the punch was taken on the top of the head, many times breaking the punchers hand!

Bruce was very fast, but he relied on POSITION above all else.

white belt

i used tkd as an example of a martial art that does mainly air punching i could have used many others i am not putting down TKD as a martial art just the way alot of people trainand not just in TKD but in many other martial arts its just TKD is most popualar therefore the people who want to learn a martial art but arent very passionate abput it ofen chose this martial art.
Throwing a 2x4 at medium speed would not hurt unless it was very long or a corner hit you, although i suppose people have different pain tolerances

I'm orange woo hay

Originally posted by bob919
i used tkd as an example of a martial art that does mainly air punching i could have used many others i am not putting down TKD as a martial art just the way alot of people trainand not just in TKD but in many other martial arts its just TKD is most popualar therefore the people who want to learn a martial art but arent very passionate abput it ofen chose this martial art.
Throwing a 2x4 at medium speed would not hurt unless it was very long or a corner hit you, although i suppose people have different pain tolerances

Sorry about that TKD business BOB919! I'm a little tense from Ma Huang. :) The 2x4 would have an end wittled down to the size of two knuckles.

I can't recall, did Bruce condition his knuckles?

white belt

I can't recall, did Bruce condition his knuckles?

YES - Look at the cover of the BRUCE LEE FIGHTING METHOD books. They show a Bruce Lee with large knuckles from pounding on things and people :D

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

are you sure its from conditioning cause some people naturally have larger knuckles i used to punch hard objects to condition mine they got bigger and are like steel but i dont do tat now i have realised whe i am 60 i want to be abble to write

Originally posted by moviefan4
Hey,

Bruce Lee is hands down the fastest martial artist on the silver screen. What do you guys think? His flicks show his amazin’ speed. I was checkin out Enter the Dragon last night and kept rewinding the scene where he takes the villains claw. Super tight! Another guy that is tearin’ up the martial arts scene is Mark Darcascos. He just came out in that French film, Brotherhood of the Wolf and he is off the hook! I was checkin out the fight scenes at www.13thstreet.com/site/common/view-content.jsp?id=d9348-cb6db-c06f7-fdd64&section=Clips&R_N=0203 and , man, this guy can get down. Have you guys heard of this movie? I guess its supposed to be somekinda horror flick. Check it out.

Peace

--Moviefan4

Bruce Lee was fast don't get me wrong but he was also very good at not telegraphing his technique so he also had what could be termed perceived speed.

Cheers
Sammy

Bruce Lee was fast, but it wasn't only his mobility that made him fast. In his book, he talks about 5 different types of speed:

Perceptual Speed- quickness of the eye to see openings, discouraging and confusing your opponent... slowing him down

Mental Speed- quickness of the mind to select the right move to counter the opponent

Initiation Speed- Economical starting from te right postureand with the correct mental attitude

Performance Speed- quickness of movement in carrying the chosen move into effect. Involves actual muscle contraction speed.

Alteration Speed- The ability to change direction midstream. Involves control of balance and inertia.

I think it was Lee's perserverance at perfecting all these factors of speed, that made his overall speed supreme.

I still have yet to see anyone that can match his speed. The closest person I've seen, is Muay Thai pioneer Ajarn Chai. He has to be the fastest man currently alive.

:asian:

Originally posted by Cthulhu
The same was said of Bruce Lee, particularly in the filming of the Green Hornet episodes. I've read a few accounts where they said they eventually had to speed up the cameras for Lee since at normal speed, he'd walk up to a person, there'd be a blur or nothing at all, and that person would fall or fly. By recording at a higher speed and then slowing the camera playback down to normal speeds, the camera was able to capture the motion and then play it back so we could actually see what Lee was doing. Basically, speeding a camera up during recording slows the action down when it's played back at normal speeds.

In contrast, you could look at a Van Dumme movie where either the camera has been slowed down and/or the playback is sped up to make him look faster than he really is.

For some martial arts movie geek fun, get the Enter the Dragon DVD and watch Lee's fight scene with Bob Wall (Ohara)...particularly the beginning techniques from the reference point. Watch that sequence frame-by-frame and see how many moves Lee really does. A good example of trapping hands, by the way.

Cthulhu

Comment on the trapping. I don't have the DVD version (came out a month after I got the VHS). The first two seemed to be Pak Sao / Gua Choi. The third, and most extensive trapping set was Pak Sao / Ping Choi, Pak Sao / Gua Choi, Lop Sao / Gua Choi. Just three traps..."just"

Heh, I saw a book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0850523907/) written by Bruce Lee at the bookstore last night--evidently this Bruce Lee is a World War II historian! It was quite a surprise to see an academic history book by Bruce Lee!

It was published in 1993 so it looks like someone finished his work or they maybe used his work to base the book or something.

Speedy Gonzalez is quickest than him, as Road Runner or The Flash, or Any Kenian Guy.

do you even try to contribute to threds infight?

Of course, ill be glad, any questions, about BJJ or Thai Boxing?

actualy I do have one about BJJ but I guess this isn't the best forum for it.. I have practiced with some BJJ people but not in a BJJ class. I was wondering what kind of stand up work you guys do, like standing grappling, throws, striking, etc..

BJJ gets alot of attention for it's ground game but I'm assumming you guys also do some kind of stand up.

Well, in BJJ we dunno pratice standing fight too much, just some throws to lead the fight to ground, the same learned in Judo, no striking ( punching or kicking ), indeed we do some stand up grappling, like standing choke, or kimura lock on standing, but thats not our routine, just the Judo throws.
Hope had helped you!

do you guys aproach stand up fighting from any other perspectives other than a judo one? like for example a wrestling perspective?

What about Jeff Speakman, have you seen The Perfect Weapon, he iis fast, and even faster in person.

Ed Parker even called him "The Next Bruce Lee"

Originally posted by phlaw
What about Jeff Speakman, have you seen The Perfect Weapon, he iis fast, and even faster in person.

Ed Parker even called him "The Next Bruce Lee"

That was a good movie. I started in Kajukenbo and Kajukenbo and Kenpo have a strong bond. They need more movies of arts that evolved here in the USA!

Originally posted by sweeper
do you guys aproach stand up fighting from any other perspectives other than a judo one? like for example a wrestling perspective?

I cant answer your question, i dont know the Wrestling perspective. If you mean going directly for legs, yup, but thats used on Judo too, if you mean grabbing the opponent, lift him and put him on ground, no we dont do that, but there are similar techniches on Judo that dunnot demand that much of strenght to apply.

Speed is actually genetic, too. How fast you are depends on a few things. Being loose and relaxed, timing, position, and if you have predominately fast twitch rather than slow twitch muscle fibers.
Check out this article:
http://www.ringside.com/archives/strength_and_conditioning/speed.htm

Jeff