Peripheral Vision or not ..

[Pervaz]

Whats the general consenus regarding in general training - use peripheral vision or not.

Lately (well for the last 6 months or so) I have been concentrating on using peripheral rather than staring straight at the attacker(s) which works much better for me. It allows me to move at a "comfortable" pace and allows me to become more 'proactive' rather than reacting to what the attackers doing.

Pervaz

[Rich_]

Peripheral vision's a great tool, especially for weaning yourself off a visual dependence in your body co-ordination. It's also good to train in such a way that you don't become visually fixated under stress (someone's screaming in your face and all you can think about is how nice his buttons are :) )

One thing to bear in mind is that it's not a high-pressure tool. Peripheral vision is one of the first things to go when adrenaline starts pumping.

[jellyman]

I see the peripheral vision thing is a way to more effectively use your field of vision, relative to paying attention to just what you're looking directly at. Under stress, that field of vision does narrow.

[Kempo Guy]

I think that's why it's important to work on your soft focus & reducing your fear-reactivity.

In the Systema guidebook, it says that you should look above his head (as this is conducive to having soft focus/peripheral vision) instead of looking at the opponents chest, or the incoming force vector. I've tried this in practice and it seems to work quite well. It does however take a little getting used to.

KG

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
In the Systema guidebook, it says that you should look above his head (as this is conducive to having soft focus/peripheral vision) instead of looking at the opponents chest, or the incoming force vector.

I've heard this from other Systema people, e.g. a person in chat. I've heard as much as 2 feet above your opponent's head. This is terribly counterintuitive advice--in essence, the advice is to look away from rather than at your opponent. I do that on occasion to show off, but not as a strategy.

[Jay Bell]

Well...a lot of Systema guidlines are rather vague when laid out on the table...then after hard work and experiance, it tends to make the details come to the surface.

From my experiances, one of the defining ideas as far as "where to look" is not to look anywhere. If you focus vision on one area of the body, it's a tense action. It also often-times gives you tunnel vision...missing things or being slow to react to things that aren't based through that area of the body.

Looking above their head gives the ability to take the eyes out of focus, seeing the body as a whole instead of locking focus into a directed area. I'm sure things go far beyond that...but that's one angle.

[NYCRonin]

The soft focus and peripheral viewing, as with looking over the head has many uses - and at first, it will leave you under stress.It takes some work to open the field of vision and can be more easily done when dealing with multiple training partners in Systema 'free movement' work.
Focusing to strongly on anything, in combat or in life, is a limiting factor that can cause one to miss so much.

[arnisador]

After you understand the peripheral vision issue, do you still focus above the head?

[NYCRonin]

No, the point being (to risk being cryptic/zen-ish) to focus a focus of 'no-focus'... this isnt a 'joke-us' or some fake hocus-pocus ... you avoid a strict locus - and absorb all around you. Looking over the head is a 'tool' for use where it fits in.
We also smile as much as possible when train and actually combat, but...at times, we might suddenly look into an opponents eyes and scowl briefly...then smile and go peripheral-ish again.
Thats the fascinating/frustrating/beautiful thing about Systema 'work' - it refuses to be boxed into absolutes - form, technique, breathing and movement though our key concepts, all go through flexible modification when necessary to survive.

This is more of a 'ya gotta do the 'work' type art than one where every concept can be placed on the draftsmans board of absolutes - it can only be experienced while 'alive' and analytical dissection requires all subject to be dead for detailed study.
That certain 'I dont know what'-ish flavor is the life-blood of 'what we do'.
It's really much easier to 'show' it.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by NYCRonin
this isnt a 'joke-us' or some fake hocus-pocus

I'm afraid it sounds very non-sensical, Zen-ish, you know...t'o look at your opponent, you should look away from your opponent'. It's hardly the first thing in the martial arts I've heard that seemed counterintuitive and it may well actually make sense, but it sure sounds odd!



It's really much easier to 'show' it.

I believe it! I have had some demonstrated to me by jaybacca72 and was convinced that some initially counterintuitive ideas, like walking into a lock to get out of it, were workable. (That probably isn't a very good description of it, but I know what I mean!) So, I am keeping an open mind.

[NYCRonin]

THAT...is all thats required.

[TAZ]

Its sounds Zenish becuase in a way its is Zenish...

The biggest lesson I have gained from Systema is that we often ignore the obvious and make the simple more complicated then it needs be...

Its beauty and yet its greatest hurdle to acceptene is its very simplicity...

(note to self: must stop eating fortune cookies late at night)


In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king....

In the land of pacifists the one 'armed' man will always be king!!

and now back to the Vodka!!

[jellyman]

dredged up a memory from my perceptual/bio-pysche days:

The part of our retina that receives most of the light from our iris (corresponding to the receptors that receive the stimulus from 'what we're looking at) (aka foeva centralis) is built for discerning details (It has a high concentration of cone receptors), however the area of the retina outside of that, while having a lower resolution, has more motion detector type receptors (aka rods). Our eyes are better at picking up movement from things we don't directly look at. This makes sense from a hunter's point of view - We notice the motion at the periphery, locate the object and lock in with our main visual processors, where we track it and analyze it.

So peripheral edges of vision are better for seeing sudden motion (like a punch).

more info on all that:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/rodcone.html

[arnisador]

But how do you see the feet if your eyes are pointed two feet above his head?

[Kingston]

Originally posted by arnisador
But how do you see the feet if your eyes are pointed two feet above his head?

why does it have to be 2 feet?

I know iv talked with you on chat about this a couple times.......i dont remember saying 2 feet. I remember saying above the head......am i the "person in chat" you where talking about?

As far as seeing the feet....you can still see the hips and the knees...feet cant move unless the hits and knees move.

[MartialArtsGuy]

2 feet, I dont know about that man, you would have to use the force or something to see the feet :D

My gaze is just that, a gaze not at any particular thing and not always over the head but sometimes it is. but not 2 feet.

In the hand book vlad talks about psycological reasons to look above the head. things about anger, fear, making the situation worse by being confrontational and not subconsiously feeling inferior to your opponent. page 31 and 32.

besides how are you going to look above your opponents head if he/she is behind you, on top of you...or any other position that makes it impossible that I am forgetting about.
:D

[NYCRonin]

The focus over the head is mearly one tool - and if you ever face Vlad or an experienced practitoner, you will notice he might not even look over your head. No absolutes. Absolutely no absolutes.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kingston
why does it have to be 2 feet?

I had heard someone say that (not on Chat). I don't know how high it has to be. How high above the head does one look?

[NYCRonin]

Hey! Will somebody PLEASE get that dead horse out of here!
I'm sorry, I will take it out myself - anybody see my whip?
This whole thread is getting me in over my head.

[Kingston]

"How high above the head does one look?"

As high as they feel comfortable.

If you fighting someone two feet taller then you, you would not be looking that high over his head (i wouldn't bother).

Basicaly you want to try not to stare constantly at any one spot of you oponents body. Looking above the head helps you to do this. It helps you to see 'the whole picture' instead of just seeing a fist flying at your head.

[jellyman]

Well, fwiw, I should note that on no videos or classes have I seen do VV or MR tilt their head back (which would break form, a fundemental nono).

But let's apply some analytical thinking. How do you look over someone's head without movnig your head and breaking your form? Rolling your eyes.

Rolling your eyes up slightly won't seriously effect your range of vision , but most or at least more of the image of your assailant from 6 feet away (for lack of a better standard, I'm using the distance they used to start us off from in tournaments from back in the day as a standard) will fall into the peripheral zone, outside the foeva centralis. As an experiment, I just walked 6 feet away from the corner of a wall of my office (not too many people in right now). I chucked a pen at the floor while directing my gaze a few degrees up from the horizantal, above my height. Without focusing on the pen, I had no trouble seeing it as it skittered across the floor past the corner.

Up close of course, the whole thing changes.

If you take it that most fights start at punching range, you want to get the upper body under the foeva, so you roll the eyes slightly then, too.

The science is there, and I aim to try this out tonight. Fact is, it is rarely if ever mentioned in class, but I do remember, now that I think of it, noticing an odd upward kant to the eye's of VV, MR, and James from Latvia from time to time. I think, though, that this is really applicable only in certain situations, like a kumite/sparring/squareoff situation. 90% of the close work we do is directed by feel, not vision, at least for me, and if somone surprises you, you have no time to adjust your eyes. On the other hand, as an excercise, rolling your eyes would get you better at recognizing the things you see outside of the foeva centralis, which could give you a better early warning systemm for the hook you weren't looking at, etc. etc..

[arnisador]

I do understand some of the physiology that has been mentioned--ibdirect looking is used in other situations. I'd be more inclined to look to the side rather than above.

Thanks for the explanations, folks! It's very different from what I'm used to.

[Kempo Guy]

FWIW, I have also heard (or rather been told) VV explain that it's not so much about looking above the opponent's head, but looking "beyond" them (and that the translation in the guidebook was not entirely accurate).

KG

[jellyman]

That makes a lot more sense, thanks

[NYCRonin]

Kempoguy
that is a good addition. Vlad often feels that the translations and (actually) his statements - sometimes do NOT translate well to english.
Then again, sometimes words are not the most effective method of communication anyway...ya gotta 'do the work' - and I also wish that my words could convey the beauty of this methodology - I cant, though.
I now 'do' and usually leave the explanations to the more accomplished wordsmiths.
I would really rather 'show', and wish I could through this medium.

[Kempo Guy]

I am not very articulate when it comes to this stuff either. Although watching Coach Sonnon's tapes (Shockability and Fisticuffs in particular) helped me understand and increased my ability to articulate what's occuring during my Systema practice. (I don't want to start a flamewar, but it's what's been helpful for ME)


As for the "looking beyond" comment I made. It's been explained to me that when working with MR that he has the ability to look 'within' you... and make the experience of attacking him very intimate. Very intriguing. Unfortunately I missed the Toronto seminar a few weeks ago, but hope to attend next year.

KG

[NYCRonin]

KempoGuy

Quote: As for the "looking beyond" comment I made. It's been explained to me that when working with MR that he has the ability to look 'within' you... and make the experience of attacking him very intimate.

In some of Vlad's video's - there is a section showing the annual trip to Russia...I was on the 2001 trip (along with some fine folks who post here).
When you see the promo on the tapes...and you heart Valerie vasilieve's voice over state "Some members wanted to test Mikhail with more realistic attacks..." you will see a guy trying to stab him in the face with a metal blade...and getting pretty well dinged for his efforts. That was me kissing the clay at the hotel Olympietz. I agree with your assessment of the experience.
See you in Toronto next year.
RobG

[Kempo Guy]

RobG,

Which tapes of Vlad's show this? I have several of them and am wondering if I just didn't pay attention to it...

I am planning on going to Aiki Expo this fall so perhaps we'll meet sooner. :) I hope to have more Systema training under my belt by then, although it's been a little difficult to get to lately (I commute 1 hour each way once to twice a week to train) as my job requires long unexpected hours.

In any event, thanks for sharing.

KG

[NYCRonin]

Would depend on how old your tapes are - the recent editions of 'Beyond the physical' and 'Personal protection' have it...for example.
Yes, it seems that Vegas will be our first meeting. Looking forward to it!

[jellyman]

the aforementioned video footage is also here:

http://hamiltonsystema.bserv.com/moscow2k1.WMV

NYCRonin's at the tail end of it.

[Kempo Guy]

Thanks!
That looked like it hurt. :D

[NYCRonin]

Like gettin hit by a hammer!

[Pervaz]

I asked one of the russian guys who I was training with - and he agreed that you should be using your peripheral vision rather than looking striaght on. In regards where you should be looking (and if its 50% higher or lower than heads. knees or shoulders) I belive it where you are comfortable.

[arnisador]

Where one is comfortable sounds quite reasonable!

[Pervaz]

Where you look, and how you use your eyes in a fight
can be more important than you think. A lot of beginners
don't realize the importance of using their eyes.

Do you know the difference between rods and cones in
your eyes? Well, you don't have to -- just remember that
you see motion out of the corners of your eyes first.

So, if you are trying to detect motion, you probably
shouldn't look straight on at your attacker. Have you
noticed that the best martial artists seem to fight
with this 'sideways glance'?

So, if you are going to look out of the corners, where
do you look?

My answer depends on the context of the fight. I have
two theories -- use whichever you need at a specific time.




THEORY ONE
Focus on the trunk of your opponent's body. You use your
peripheral vision to catch the motion of the limbs. By
focusing on the abdomen-to-chest area, you won't get faked
out by a feint with the punch ... hopefully.

You see more if you start with your opponent's center
and then let your focus expand outward from there.




THEORY TWO

Focus on the hands and the feet. Some of you were
taught to scan the perimeter, when you enter a new
situation ... like a restaurant, or a party. You make a
scan of the outer edges.


This theory is exactly that. You scan your opponents'
hands and feet. Are they concealing anything?

You check out their weapons, so to speak. They will
probably attack with hand or foot, so put those
weapons under the microscope.




COMBINING THE TWO

You can actually blend the two 'tactics for visual
analysis.' Examine the hands and feet at a greater
distance. Use it as sort of a pre, cursory examination.

Then, when it's time effect your martial arts
stance -- you don't reveal that you are a martial
artist too soon, by snapping into a formal pose ...
I mean stance -- you look out of the corner
of your eyes.

To sum all of this up, you scan their weapons first,
reveal your stance when you have to, then let an
sideways glance at the trunk take over.


Now, the real question is what are you looking for?

From Kerwin Benson