I don't think I've ever heard a Wing Chun technique referred to as being a Tiger, or Dragon, or Crane, or what-have-you technique. Is there any animal style that is associated with Wing Chun or is it entirely separate from the Shaolin animal systems? Are any of the punches/blocks/etc. considered to be of some animal's type?

My teacher, Sifu Anthony Iglesias, wrote an article called "The Five Animals of Wing Chun" for the next issue of The Martialist. It appears in our subscriber-only content. Here's a quote:

It is widely believed that the origins of Kung Fu are rooted deeply in animal forms -- movements studied and imitated by the first Kung Fu practitioners of the Shaolin Temple as they observed certain living creatures. You may hear from those who don't know better that Wing Chun is not an "animal style." The fact is, however, that animal characteristics are very much a part of Wing Chun Kung Fu's different aspects.

The five animals of Wing Chun are the tiger, leopard, white crane, dragon and snake. Each of these five animals is associated with one of the Chinese elements: fire, metal, wood, earth and water.

Each Wing Chun lineage pays respect to the five animals in its own way. Some kwoons have a snake and crane on their school banner, for example, while others use the crane and tiger or just the dragon. Regardless of lineage, the animal forms present in Kung Fu styles are part of both our movements and our thoughts. At the Syracuse Wing Chun Academy (http://www.syracusewingchun.com), we focus on all five animals and their characteristics...

I'll have to look at some of my Wing Chun books again with an eye to the tiger, leopard, white crane, dragon and snake. Thanks!

to answer your question you have to look at where Wing Chun originated. The most popular story is that it came from the Shaolin Temple created by the five elders.

an experienced WC practioner can easily spot the symilarities while watching a Shaolin fighter.

for example: I taught at the Fu Shaung Temple which is a Shaolin based school. I would often watch the other classes and always see bits and pieces that seemed to come directly from Wing Chun.... or should I say.... where WC got it from :)

One day while watching Sifu Hammond teaching the Tiger & Crane form I saw WC all over the place. If I ever wondered about WC's origins before.... they were put to rest after my time spent with Sifu hammond at the Fu Shaung Temple.

so YES.... there are animals in Wing Chun.

Originally posted by leehoicheun
One day while watching Sifu Hammond teaching the Tiger & Crane form I saw WC all over the place.

Can you give me some specific examples? I'm not a WC person, but I do have access to vid clips of the forms, for example.

it's been a while and I can't remember exactly everything i saw but let's start off with the basic hand movements.

In the form they were doing they was a substantial amount of Fook Sau (hooking/subdueing hand) which represents the crane. Wing Chun uses Fook Sau. The Fook Sau was used in combintation with differents strikes like Biu Jee (thrusting fingers) and more. They also did Larp Sau (grabbing band) which is Tiger.

All I can say is that you'll have to see it for yourself to understand fully what I saw.

Good Luck :)

IN the book Yuen Kay-San Wing Chun Kuen by Rene Ritche he uses animal names for some of the movements.

--Jeremy Bays

From here:
http://www.shaolin.com/page.asp?content_id=1002


The two universal aspects of snake techniques are pin-point open-hand strikes and twisting arm postures to disguise one’s line of attack. Such movements are often seen in Wing Chun kung fu forms, as in the third, or Bil Jee, set, in which most of the hand techniques are snake-derived.


Web-searching has also turned up several claims that WC is a crane/snake based style (e.g., here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=20940) and here (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7871)).

As i have always understood it, wing chun's animal roots are snake and crane. Not saying any other indeas are wrong, thats jut how ive always understood it.

Those are certainly prominent (bil jee, the evasive footwork, etc.). Lop Sau is very "tiger," though, as just one alternative example.

just curious, but what about it makes it "tigerish"? no really familar with that styles appraoch

Lop sau is a Wing Chun technique that involves pulling the opponent's arm down and back, out of the way -- sort of like a tiger might claw someone.

well i guess thats one way to look at it, but do they practice lop sao in tiger kung fu?

yes.

I would say that thinking about it too much is not healthy. As stated in an article I wrote, each linage pays tribute to 1, 2 or more of the animals. In one school of thought, they pay respect to Crane, Snake, Tiger and Fox...................... Fox?:asian:

this does not mean they are wrong. It's just another way of thinking.

You asked about Lop Sau. Lop Sau means "grabbing hand". A snake can not grab you, it has no hands or claws. so this rules it out as a snake hand. A crane, like the snake, has no claws other then the claws on it's legs that are too busy meneuvering and avoiding. The tiger however uses it's claws to catch and hold you, pulling you into it's crushing jaws. This is the same way a Lop Sau works. It pulls you in to the strike and stays "sticky" to you.

To go even further. It's not about how the animals are shown in the physical aspects of a style, but rather how they show in the mental and spiritual. Here's what I mean. A person can be very tiger in his powerful rip you to shreds mentallity or he can be very snake like in his slipperiness and non force on force nature.

Most Kung/Gung Fu practitioners aim to be able to use all five animals and elements. This is mastery at it's best. The ability to flow from one to the other with out thought. You are attacked with tiger, you become snake. Or you are attacked with fire, you put the flames out with water. But, if you fight fire with fire, the bigger, stronger fire wins.

I hope this helps.
Amit To Fo.

What animal, if any, is associated with the basic Wing Chun straight punch and the associated chain punches?

Often the index finger bulges out slightly, but not so much that it looks like a phoenix fist to me.

the wing chun straight punch belongs to the animal... HUMANS :rofl:

but seriously. You're thinking way too much about what animal represents what technique and forgetting that the animal "behavior" was added to the already existing HUMAN attributes.

In the words of Bruce Lee.... A punch is a punch.:asian:

someone once told me that the most boring thing about classical music are the poeple who write about it. I tend to agree. Instead.... I'd rather just listen to it. for Wing Chun, I'd rather train.

Just curious!

The Animals of Wing Chun (http://www.themartialist.com/fiveanimals.htm), an article by Sifu Anthony Iglesias

The straight punch is normally associated with the element of wood. However, the straight punch can also be done with a rising energy or a falling energy, which would associate it with a different element. I don't know if this helps or hinders this discussion.
:shrug: :drinkbeer

I usually think of those elements in Japanese systems and the animals in Chinese systems, but I know it's more complicated than that. What animal might go with it?

Well, there may be some disagreement with my answer, but the straight punch is attributed to the Snake.
:drinkbeer

but the straight punch is attributed to the Snake.


Uh, no.

Can you expand on that?

Also called Yongchun Quan. A southern Chinese martial style drived from Southern White Crane during the Qing Qian Long period (1736-1796 A.D.) Ther is a saying that Yongchun Quan was started aby the lady Yan, Yong-Chun who learned Southern White Crane techniques from the Buddhist nun Wumei in the mountains of Yunnan Province.

quoted from "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane" by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Uh, no.

This doesn't give us much to go on. I know you have more to say than that.


Also called Yongchun Quan. A southern Chinese martial style drived from Southern White Crane during the Qing Qian Long period (1736-1796 A.D.) Ther is a saying that Yongchun Quan was started aby the lady Yan, Yong-Chun who learned Southern White Crane techniques from the Buddhist nun Wumei in the mountains of Yunnan Province.

quoted from "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane" by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

This doesn't really answer the question.
:drinkbeer

your right, my mistake...:asian:

Think about it, Pat. A snake is characterized by quick, light, darting, indirect movements. A technique that could rightly be classified as "snake" would be a bil jee to the eyes. That is not compatible with a straight punch, which is much more blunt and direct in nature.

Reread this article (http://www.themartialist.com/fiveanimals.htm) and then ask yourself which animal would more accurately be associated with a straight punch.

I guess I'd lean toward Tiger ("explosiveness").

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Think about it, Pat. A snake is characterized by quick, light, darting, indirect movements. A technique that could rightly be classified as "snake" would be a bil jee to the eyes. That is not compatible with a straight punch, which is much more blunt and direct in nature.

Reread this article (http://www.themartialist.com/fiveanimals.htm) and then ask yourself which animal would more accurately be associated with a straight punch.

Assuming I haven't thought about these things, shame on you, Phil.
I agree that bil jee and straight punch are dissimilar on the surface. However, bil jee does not represent all Snake techniques, and neither does the straight punch. Throw a straight punch and hold it in the extended position, now uncurl your fingers so they are reasonably straight, it is now the extended position of a snake strike. Now, throw a snake strike and hold in the extended position, then curl your fingers into a fist, this is the extended position of the straight punch.
I agree a straight punch is direct, but I wouldn't categorize its energy as "blunt". Some snake strikes are direct also.
By the way I read that article. I don't know the author. I am sure he is a respected instructor. I agree with some of what is in the article and dis agree with other things, but I am not going to point out the things I agree
and disagree with.
Oh yeah, what animal did you say the straight punch is associated with? I must have missed that part.

I guess I'd lean toward Tiger ("explosiveness").

Take "explosiveness" out of Snake movements and "limp noodle" comes to mind.
:drinkbeer

The book Complete Wing Chun by Ritchie, Chu, and Wu, has a chapter on Gu Lao Wing Chun, which has technique names such as Gwa lung jeung (hanging dragon palm, Fe mei (tiger's tail), Hok bong (crane wing), and Gwai ma chui (kneeling horse strike).

The chapter on Nanyang Wing Chun lists techniques such as Fong ngan chui (phoenix-eye fist), Ying/fu jow (eagle/tiger claw), and Bak hok chan sa (white crane shovelling sand).

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Pat
[B]Assuming I haven't thought about these things, shame on you, Phil.

You may have thought about them, but given your input on Wing Chun in other threads (such as believing someone who regularly breaks the arms off his wooden dummy "knows what he is doing"), I'd say you're input on these topics is not terribly informed. I'm sorry if that sounds rude; I don't mean it that way. But you're simply saying things that aren't correct.

You do not understand the essential nature of the snake if you associate the straight punch with it. What is your experience with Wing Chun, exactly?

Nice try Phil, but I am going to at least try to stay with the discussion at hand. As for my posts in other threads, I'll get back to them in due time.
Discussing my martial arts experience is pointless and I won't do it.
I've heard a lot of , ' I'm wrong about this and mis informed about that', but I haven't heard anything from you about the question at hand. The fact that you don't have anything to add to the discussion, except for trying to change the subject and telling me how wrong I am, only strengthens my position.
:drinkbeer

Nice try Phil, but I am going to at least try to stay with the discussion at hand. As for my posts in other threads, I'll get back to them in due time.

Nice try, Pat, but that's an evasion.

Discussing my martial arts experience is pointless and I won't do it.

Discussing credentials is pointless, but asking you what your experience with Wing Chun might be is very relevant, given that you're expressing opinions about the art that are immediately identifiable as wrong to most people who have practiced it. Either you've trained in Wing Chun or you haven't. I'm not saying you've got to have more than even a few months' exposure to offer a valid opinion, but I've not seen much from you that is accurate so far.

I've heard a lot of , ' I'm wrong about this and mis informed about that', but I haven't heard anything from you about the question at hand.

Then you haven't been listening.

The fact that you don't have anything to add to the discussion, except for trying to change the subject and telling me how wrong I am, only strengthens my position.

The fact that you're trying to mischaracterize my input in the thread, while completely avoiding any questions about from where you draw your questionable information, only strengthens my position. After all, I've only submitted links to articles I've written and articles written by my teacher on this very subject; what could I possibly know about the topic?

You're wriggling, not answering.

Pat,

I am a Wing Chun instructor. I have read everything you have stated about martial arts.... especially Wing Chun.... and have stayed silent due to the amusement you give me with your nonsense. I believe that sometimes it is best to not argue with people who

a) OBVIOUSLY don't know what they are talking about or
b) are saying these dumb things just to piss people off.

Pat, wherever you got your info I'd like to know. Please send us a list of books, videos or whatever that backs up your claims about the punch and snake. I have personally studied both the white crane AND snake styles of kung fu and I can say this..... even though they have punches in their forms and in combat.... the punch is NOT associated with them the way you say it is.

in every form, and I mean EVERY form, there is some level of punching. Human beings were balling up fists long before they even thought about creating a martial art. It is a HUMAN thing to do to make a fist. Name an animal that can make a fist the way humans can.

Saying that the punch comes from snake is actually funny. It amused me and I'm sure the others got a chuckle from it as well.

Now on to credentials. You say that
Discussing my martial arts experience is pointless and I won't do it.

that is a clear indication that you are not a "ranked" martial artist. Name your style, school and experiences to back up your bold claims. Until then.... we laugh at you.

There is a joke among Wing Chun practitioners. When someone says
someone who regularly breaks the arms off his wooden dummy "knows what he is doing"
We start laughing. Pat......THAT IS JUST PURE IGNORANCE!

Now pat, you can choose to respond to this message but I will end it with this. I personally think that you may really know the answers..... but you are purposely choosing to give the wrongs ones just to "troll" or stir up the pot of this board. If I'm wrong then I think you might want to REALY study the FACTS of martial arts.

this is the last time I respond to you. Good luck in all your future endeavors and may the power of wisdom stop running away from you
:rofl: :p :D :asian:

Ouch.

Mod. Note

Keep the conversation on topic.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-

I understand your desire to keep the conversation polite and pleasant, Cthulhu, but I can't think of anything more on topic than the validity of the ideas espoused by individual participants.

Well, these friendly discussion boards aren't quite as friendly as I had hoped they would be.
:drinkbeer

I don't see anything particularly unfriendly about the exchange. If you're going to offer your opinion on Wing Chun, though, you must be willing to accept criticism when that opinion is not an informed one. Those of us who practice Wing Chun and feel strongly about it become somewhat... agitated... when confronted with public statements about the art that are fundamentally unsound.

I am out of this discussion. (But I am sure that no one cares)