Pulling Rank

[KenpoGirl]

Okay, it's been a while since I've started a post, so I guess it's about time.

The question is......... Does or should rank apply when outside of the Studio/School/Dojo etc...? (i.e. Doing jobs outside of the school for your instructor as a requirement on top of tuition paid; or waiting for the senior instructor to eat first at a restaurant, or sitting by rank at a restaurant, white belts sitting furthest way etc...)

I've had this discussion with a couple people about the way things use to be, and in some cases still are.

A person should always be respected, but should you go as far as to treat them as someone superior when your out having a leisurely time at a Restaurant or Bar, or after training hours? Has that attitude changed? Is your instructor just "one of the guys/girls" when you see them in a social setting?

I'd like your opinion, please.

Dot
:asian:

[Deathtrap101]

Out of the dojo, ofcourse you still give the same respect. But it's much more slack. When seeing an instructer in a social setting he\she is just one of the guys\gals. It is for me anyway, after a clinic we actualy all got together for drinks at boston pizza. It was a very casual setting, i talked to the founder of renshikan karate for a while and it was very easy going.

[Hollywood1340]

Other then names for the most part, I agree. (Master Taylor is still Master Taylor, kinda like Mrs. Tackett, my 2nd Grade Teacher is still Mrs. Tackett no matter where I see her) We go out for drinks, and talk normaly, but he is still my instructor, I'm his student, but that's a given and a good time is had by all. That about sums it up.

[MartialArtist]

To me, it's a mixed subject.

There are some people that you ALWAYS have to respect. In the military and you see a Lt. General, you salute no matter what (unless it's a VERY bad time). If I saw the grandmaster of the school who holds a 8th or a 9th dan, I show respect to him just like I would show respect him in school.

For assistant instructors, yeah, I could be a little more casual but I will still show respect, just not in the case where I have to listen to you all the time.

But with some people, I don't know... I've never had any casual relationship with any of my teachers at school (as in education school). It was a professional relationship, not some casual talk to me type thing.

[Bob Hubbard]

It depends on the situation.

It gets more complex for me as some of my clients are my 'seniors'. It also depends on the setting, and how I believe they want to be addressed.

for assistant instructors, in most cases i'm more casual, but again, it depends on the situation. On the floor, I'll Mr n Ms em...off the floor, I'm usually a first name personable person. Those who are older than me are almost always addresses as 'mr' unless I know its ok otherwise. Just oldschool mentality.:asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

Outside of the dojang I've always shown the same respect to my Sabumnim and and the assistant instructor as if we were in the dojang. Bow first, and then shake hands. For us it's always a given to show respect even though we're in Southern California... :asian:

[Zepp]

I think you should always show a bit of extra respect toward your instructor, or other instructors in your style. Just how much respect varies depending on how the person expects to be treated. You definitely show respect to your grandmaster or head of your style wherever you are. (Especially in my case since our grandmaster is the only one who awards dan ranks. :D )

But as far as "pulling rank" goes, I don't think anyone who isn't a designated "instructor" deserves any extra privileges in or out of the dojo. Back when I was a purple belt, there was this brown belt in our class who would cut in front of yellow belts in line for kicking the bag. He always said he was "pulling rank." My response to this was to tell him to get his ass back in line before I kicked him in his cajones. The black belts didn't seem to feel that I was unjustified.

[sweeper]

My MA instructor is a teacher, and I gve all the teachers I have had and liked respect, but I give them respect as teachers, that is to say I respect my instructor because he is my teacher not because he teaches MA.

[dearnis.com]

NO!
Many of my students are my close friends and any "respect" that is shown out of class is based on that (of course I also use my first name in class).
Chad

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
NO!
Many of my students are my close friends and any "respect" that is shown out of class is based on that (of course I also use my first name in class).
Chad

The day I become friends with my instructor, is the day I have nothing more to learn from him.
As my teacher it is his job to help me stretch, among other things.
If he is my friend, then he will just accept me as I am. How does he help me, then, to find new depths?

In class he is Master Monea or Senseii. Out of class, he is Master Frank, Master Monea, or Senseii.

--Dave

:asian:

[Kirk]

If the people who outranked me expected to be able to make
me do pushups, or wait until they decide to eat, or be errand
boy for them or anything else outside of the classroom, that'd be
the day I stop being a student there. I call my instructor "Mr
Abernathy" at all times, and he's never said to do otherwise.
But if a bunch of us are going out to dinner, out for drinks, or
whatever outside of the school, I'll eat when I decide to eat.
They can carry their own equipment to and from their vehicles,
they're adults, fully capable. I didn't sign up to learn kenpo so
I could be somebody's lacky.

[Cthulhu]

I'm reminded of the CMQ/D examples of students who were required to do construction work for CMQ/D's founder...with no pay. If their instructors called on them, in school or out...regardless of time of day, they had to comply.

Cthulhu

[michaeledward]

My daughter was studying Kenpo for two years before I started training. I always called the owner of the school by his given name, 'Mike'.

When I started training myself, I had to be corrected once, by one of the other black belts in the school; she said to me, on the matt, you're suppose to address the instructors as 'Mr.', or 'Instructor' ('Ms.' if the instructor is female.) Outside the school, it is perfectly acceptable to address the instructors by their first name.

Okay, all that is simple enough ... now the gaff ...

I recently attended a seminar with 'Huk' Planas at Doreen Cogliandro's Revere Karate Academy. It was suppose to be an 7:00 PM to 8:30 PM workout. Those of you that have attended these seminars know that it turned into a several hour long session. When I went to leave, I wanted to show my gratitude to the host for sponsoring the seminar (odd, as I paid to attend the seminar - I don't thank the movie theater when I leave - that's another topic), so on the matt, I walked up to Ms. Cogliandro (an 8th degree) and thanked her as 'Doreen' .... Oops. Then, I thanked Mr. Planas with a handshake, and not a Kenpo salute.

As we were driving away, I realized that I showed my appreciation and respect in a strictly Western sense, and that I, perhaps, assumed entirely too much familiarity with Ms. Cogliandro.

My only excuse is that after working out with Mr. Planas for a couple of hours, my brain hurts too much to think straight.

Oh, well ... I do intend to go to the IKC later this summer. I assume I will behave better at that time.

Mike

[fist of fury]

Rank should not be considered outside the school. Thier just people and if they expect more then they have ego problems.

[tonbo]

I would say that rank does not apply outside of the studio/school/dojo, but that *respect* does. That respect needs to cut two ways: from instructor to student, and from student to instructor.

At our school, instructors are to be referred to by "Mr.", "Ms.", or "Mrs.". If the uniform is on, or we are all at the school, this rule has no exceptions. Outside of the school, however, things are different. We call each other by first name, or by their title (Mr., Ms., etc.) as we feel like, and as appropriate. The respect is still there, no matter what.

The owner/head instructor of the school is slightly more of a problem for me, personally. He has insisted that I call him by his first name when we are not at the school, but I still can't do that, not even after working fairly closely with him for the last 5 years. It just doesn't seem right. As for our relationship, I would say we are friends, but not good or exceptional friends. As much fun as we may have together, I still look at him as a mentor and a teacher. I don't want to lose that.

Finally, as far as that whole load with sitting by rank in restaurants, being accessible to your master/sifu/sensei *any* time of the day, etc. , two words come to mind: *21st Century*. That may have been how things were done in the past, but it doesn't mean it applies today. Outside of the school, I will give respect, but I won't allow it to be demanded of me. Rank outside the school should be voluntary, not compulsory. In my opinion, anyone who claims rank privileges outside of the school is in need of some *serious* therapy and ego counseling.

Uh...that goes for outside of MT, too. :D

Respect to all-- :asian:

Peace--

[Blindside]

The day I become friends with my instructor, is the day I have nothing more to learn from him. As my teacher it is his job to help me stretch, among other things. If he is my friend, then he will just accept me as I am. How does he help me, then, to find new depths?

Wow, do I disagree with this idea. :) My instructor is also someone I would consider a good friend, and he has never stopped pushing me. In fact, I suspect we feel more comfortable critiqueing each other because we are friends. And certainly our friendship has never stopped him from pummeling me around the room and into a quivering mass on the floor.

Our school is a family linked by our shared experiences in martial arts. In class our titles are Mr. or Sifu, but outside of class respect between us is shown in actions not titles.



The question is......... Does or should rank apply when outside of the Studio/School/Dojo etc...? (i.e. Doing jobs outside of the school for your instructor as a requirement on top of tuition paid; or waiting for the senior instructor to eat first at a restaurant, or sitting by rank at a restaurant, white belts sitting furthest way etc...)

Well, my instructor is often the first to eat, but that is just becasue he LIKES to eat. Certainly none of us are going to wait on him. Rank means very little outside of our class.

Lamont

[mtabone]

Martial Arts is a way of life. The "DO" or Way. It does not matter on the mat or off, in the DoJang/DoJo, or what ever the training hall is called, or out of the training hall, we still practice the discipline of our choisen way. It is not an egotistical problem, as I see it around me, with the seniors excpecting to be called Master, or the like, but the juniors not wishing to put their own egos aside.When I get a new student, I tell them to call all their seniors by Mr. ________ or Mrs. ___________ etc... regardless of age, only rank matters. If they call me by my first name, usaully some other student in the class will correct them. It is not for me that they call me Mr. Tabone, it is more for them. Outside of the Dojang, it is the same. While I am no longer teaching them right that second any marital arts, I am still an example of the Way. Even though I am far from perfect. Great thing about being human, you can make mistakes.

And just as, Respect is shown to me, from my juniors, I show the same respect, if not more, to my juniors. I have learned so much from the martial arts, I hope to give back more then I took....

Michael Tabone

[Bob Hubbard]

Several of my instructors are my friends. I've found its true, they do accept me for who I am, however, they also tend to push me harder than other instructors who I had only a professional relationship with did.

As to carrying bags, etc...I have to disagree...but within certain parameters.

Visiting instructor, I'll help out. I've picked up instructors at airports and hotels, driven them to dinner, etc.

If mine are preparing for a seminar or something, I'll help carry a bag to the truck. If I'm around and they need a hand with something, and I can, I will help out.

Case in point, at the recent WMAA camp, at any given time I had at least a few of the instructors or seniors in my wagon. It just made sence since I can transport a large group to do so. :)

But, you most likely will not see me cutting the grass, painting the walls or washing the windows at the school.... there are limits. I'm more inclined to do more for a friend because they are a friend, rather than just an instructor or 'master', especially if they are outside my line of study.

[TKDman]

Lmao.....

"I wear a purple cloth around my waist, while you wear a yellow one... therefore you must do what I say!"

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Several of my instructors are my friends. I've found its true, they do accept me for who I am, however, they also tend to push me harder than other instructors who I had only a professional relationship with did.


That's a good thing, isn't it? Friendship can have it's priviledges.


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
As to carrying bags, etc...I have to disagree...but within certain parameters.

Visiting instructor, I'll help out. I've picked up instructors at airports and hotels, driven them to dinner, etc.

If mine are preparing for a seminar or something, I'll help carry a bag to the truck. If I'm around and they need a hand with something, and I can, I will help out.

Case in point, at the recent WMAA camp, at any given time I had at least a few of the instructors or seniors in my wagon. It just made sence since I can transport a large group to do so. :)


If anyone of any rank has more than he/she can carry, then it's
a polite, nice thing to do. It shouldn't be done just because of
who they are. The b.b.'s in my school are quite capable of
bringing their own bag into the school, and are quite capable of
opening the door for entrance/exit of buildings. If a white belt
had too much to carry, I'd be out there offering help. Rank has
nothing to do with it, and shouldn't.


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
But, you most likely will not see me cutting the grass, painting the walls or washing the windows at the school.... there are limits. I'm more inclined to do more for a friend because they are a friend, rather than just an instructor or 'master', especially if they are outside my line of study.

Regardless of line of study, I'm happy to help if it's within my
means. But I wouldn't attend a school where it's held in regard
come test time or something.

[KenpoGirl]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
As to carrying bags, etc...I have to disagree...but within certain parameters.

Visiting instructor, I'll help out. I've picked up instructors at airports and hotels, driven them to dinner, etc.

If mine are preparing for a seminar or something, I'll help carry a bag to the truck. If I'm around and they need a hand with something, and I can, I will help out.

Case in point, at the recent WMAA camp, at any given time I had at least a few of the instructors or seniors in my wagon. It just made sence since I can transport a large group to do so. :)

I see nothing wrong with that as well. As long as it's something your want to do to show respect and kindness. I would and have done that myself.

What I'm talking about is if the instructor expects you to carry it as it stands there until someone picks it up and takes it away when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves.

Now before I get some people grumbling at me, I will add a disclaimer and say I have not to date been required to do anything like this, but I HAVE talked to several people who have experienced this so I thought I'd see what peoples opinion are.

Dot
:asian:

BTW, thanks for all the great replies, keep them coming. :D

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

Now before I get some people grumbling at me, I will add a disclaimer and say I have not to date been required to do anything like this, but I HAVE talked to several people who have experienced this so I thought I'd see what peoples opionion are.

Dot
:asian:

BTW, thanks for all the great replies, keep them coming. :D

I've heard this too I think the problem is they will tolerate it because they're learning from someone famous or senior in thier system. It gives them bragging rights so they put up with it some people wise up and move along. Others are happy being puppets.

[Jill666]

Originally posted by KenpoGirl
The question is......... Does or should rank apply when outside of the Studio/School/Dojo etc...? (i.e. Doing jobs outside of the school for your instructor as a requirement on top of tuition paid; or waiting for the senior instructor to eat first at a restaurant, or sitting by rank at a restaurant, white belts sitting furthest way etc...)

Hell, no! I'll treat everyone alike outside the dojo. The last function I went to (about two weeks ago) where my instructor was present, I called him by his name, got a kiss on the cheek and accepted a free drink.

As for ranking up at a restaurant, no way. Hopefully everyone is friendly and respectful anyway. If I am in street clothes still and my instructor wants a gatorade from next door, I'll get it- he pays.

[karatekid1975]

My school is laid back anyways (except for the training, that is). In training, I address my instructors has Ms, Mr, or Master. We only bow in and out of class, not to each other (as a greeting). I have no idea why, but it's their way, I guess. If I saw one of them outside of the dojang, I'd say their first name (if I know it). I'd give them a hand shake and a smile. They don't mind.

I once saw my master instructor from my TSD dojang outside of the dojang, and I called him Master B. He yelled at me (well not mean yelling, it was more of a whisper LOL), because he was embarrassed LOL. It was in a crowded convenient (sp?) store. So ever since, I called him by his first name and have him a good ol' hand shake outside the dojang. He is a regular guy when he's in street clothes. And he would rather we treat him like that outside of the school. And he was a 4th dan at the time.

[KennethKu]

Based on my humble knowledge in eastern culture and value:

The measurement of the character of a superior is based on how he/she demands to be treated/recognized by his/her students. The more picky/strick he/she is, the bigger JERK he/she actually is. The genuine superior is one who is always benevolent towards his/her students. He/she would never pull rank nor demand adherent to protocol.

[dearnis.com]

To bad for those who can't learn from a friend.
I actually push these guys and gals harder because I care about them.

[jdmills]

My first instructor was (and still is) my oldest friend. I'm 40 and I've known him for about 38 years. Somehow, I just couldn't bring myself to call him "Mr. Van Trieste" but that certainly doesn't diminish the respect that I have for him.

[tshadowchaser]

I have my students carry the bag of my instructor and the head of the system. When I first started learning it was policy that senior instructors where offered this by the lower ranks. Sometime it is accepted sometimes not.
I also have at least one student at the beck and call of my instructor and the head of the system ( when he is in town) and I have a student stand or sit behind them (when possible) to be their "gofeer"
It's the way I was brought up in the arts I have passed it on to my students
My instructor is my instructor at all times not just when in the school. As I say everyday" Sikaran is my way of life". It is not just an hour a day of practice it is part of my being and the belifes and thought patterns I have learned in the Martial Arts are a part of me at all times.
these are my humble thoughts on the matter only
tshadowchaser:asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Running around being someones lackey is ridiculous. Sitting in a restaurant by pecking order is ridiculous. This is the type of nonsense that gives traditional martial arts a bad name.

Respect is important. When I was growing up we called all adults Mr. x or Mrs. x or Miss y. This is how we showed respect. Kids don't usually do that anymore.

Inside many dojos, this Mr./Ms. formality is a way to show respect. But it really isn't necessary. Do you think any of us would respect Mr. Ed Parker less if he asked us to call him "Ed" rather than "Mr. Parker?" Would you respect your "Sensei" or "Sifu" less if you called him by his first name? I don't think so.

I recently started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. There is a tremendous amount of respect for instructors and between students--just as much as any of the Traditional Martial Arts schools I've attended. But there isn't any of the bowing, kneeling, or kow-towing of the Traditional arts. We call each other by first name or by nickname. Lots of respect, lots of love, lots of cameradie; No nonsense. It is really refreshing.

[RCastillo]

I've been through all the things that have been mentioned, and I have mixed feelings about some of it.

But I will say this for myself. I prefer to be called by my first name, it's not necessary for you to do anything special for me. But, I will do it for you. I'm just like you, and I have my strengths, and weaknesses.

I'm just a teacher, nothing more.:asian:

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I have my students carry the bag of my instructor and the head of the system. When I first started learning it was policy that senior instructors where offered this by the lower ranks. Sometime it is accepted sometimes not.
I also have at least one student at the beck and call of my instructor and the head of the system ( when he is in town) and I have a student stand or sit behind them (when possible) to be their "gofeer"
It's the way I was brought up in the arts I have passed it on to my students
My instructor is my instructor at all times not just when in the school. As I say everyday" Sikaran is my way of life". It is not just an hour a day of practice it is part of my being and the belifes and thought patterns I have learned in the Martial Arts are a part of me at all times.
these are my humble thoughts on the matter only
tshadowchaser:asian:

Would you treat all your teachers from K-12 to college, the same way?

[jdmills]

I had professors in law school that I called "professor" and a few that I called by their first name. Surprisingly, as I look back, I respect the ones that I called by their first name more.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Running around being someones lackey is ridiculous. Sitting in a restaurant by pecking order is ridiculous. This is the type of nonsense that gives traditional martial arts a bad name.

Respect is important. When I was growing up we called all adults Mr. x or Mrs. x or Miss y. This is how we showed respect. Kids don't usually do that anymore.

Inside many dojos, this Mr./Ms. formality is a way to show respect. But it really isn't necessary. Do you think any of us would respect Mr. Ed Parker less if he asked us to call him "Ed" rather than "Mr. Parker?" Would you respect your "Sensei" or "Sifu" less if you called him by his first name? I don't think so.

I recently started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. There is a tremendous amount of respect for instructors and between students--just as much as any of the Traditional Martial Arts schools I've attended. But there isn't any of the bowing, kneeling, or kow-towing of the Traditional arts. We call each other by first name or by nickname. Lots of respect, lots of love, lots of cameradie; No nonsense. It is really refreshing.

Exactly. A lot of the "instructors" are simply on an ego trip.

[KenpoDragon]

Well in the classroom, I am Sensei, out of the classroom, I go by my first name. Sometimes it is hard for my students to remember that, but after 20 or 30 push-ups they remember. I expect the same respect outside of the classroom, but I don't go as far as telling them that they have to do favors for me, or wait until I eat until they can eat, that would be silly. That's just my opinion though.

:asian:

[redfang]

I train at a small kenpo/ shootfighting school. Everyone pretty much refers to each other by their first name. My wife and I occasionally go out socially with the instructors and a few other students and it is very casual. Despite this, everyone demonstrates a great deal of courtesy and respect for one another. (Even when busting each other's cajones, which happens a lot too.)

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Would you treat all your teachers from K-12 to college, the same way?

Personally, it depends.

I recently ran into a teacher from 7th grade...I did address him as "Mr.". He then said to call him by his first name. I just didn't presume now that its 20 yrs later that I had the 'right'.

Some instructors will always be 'mater' and 'professor' and 'sensei'. Both on and off the floor. You don't switch to a first name basis with your doctor once you walk out of the office right?

In some systems, it is expected that the juniors will 'work' for the seniors. I remember reading 1 such story about training in Japan where the students would clean the dojo daily as part of their training.

I see nothing wrong with ensuring that someone is available to assist a visiting master. I know at the sci-fi and anime cons I goto there is usually at least 1 person assigned to each guest. It just makes sence to me.

Now, the hero worship bits, that I disagree with...but, you'll find that in any group I think. MartialArts, fandom, amway. :D

:D

[Wmarden]

Here is what my Sensei told me. On the mat or in the dojo he is sensei. Outside that door he is Bill.

[tshadowchaser]

I think that Kaith preety much answered the question for me.
I palce a person near or behind them because 1 I came into the arts durring a time when such things where done 2 I feel that as my instructor or the head of the system they deserve a little special treatment
Being the person behind the instructor is a two fold experence. On the one hand you are a gofer and a bodyguard. On the other you learn mountians of stuff you might not otherwise learn by being nearby when you instructor has disscussions with other high ranking people. He/she may also take time to point out things to you and explain certian techniques, forms, history lines that you would not know if he did not tell you.
As for my academic teachers they would still be Mr., Mrs., or Miss even after all these years and yes I would offer to carry theit books or breifcase for them. They where my senior in life and I was taught to respect that.
I respect those who have not been in this type of situation and those who do not do such things. We all came into the arts at different times and in different circumstances. Each of us has his own learning process.
tshadowchaser:asian:

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kaith: Your example of the Doctor is an interesting one. My take on it is very different.

At my school, everyone is assigned an instrucor and gets a weekly private lesson. One of my private-lesson Black Belt students is a Doctor. My wife was a Blue Belt. Her private-lesson instructor was this same Black Belt Doctor. He was also her physician. He is also one of our best friends.

On the mat, he is "Mr. x"
In the Dr.'s office he is is "Dr. x"
On social occasions, we call each other by first name.

[Nightingale]

personally, I don't call a black belt by their first name unless I'm invited to do so, no matter the situation. For example, when I first met Clyde, he told me to call him Clyde. So that's what I call him. However, unless he'd told me that, he'd be Mr. O'Brient until I was told otherwise. Better to err on the side of caution than to offend.

Even if I've been invited to use a black belt's first name, on the mat they're always "sir/ma'am" or "mr/ms" unless I'm specifically told that first names are okay in class.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Personally, it depends.

I recently ran into a teacher from 7th grade...I did address him as "Mr.". He then said to call him by his first name. I just didn't presume now that its 20 yrs later that I had the 'right'.

Some instructors will always be 'mater' and 'professor' and 'sensei'. Both on and off the floor. You don't switch to a first name basis with your doctor once you walk out of the office right?

In some systems, it is expected that the juniors will 'work' for the seniors. I remember reading 1 such story about training in Japan where the students would clean the dojo daily as part of their training.

I see nothing wrong with ensuring that someone is available to assist a visiting master. I know at the sci-fi and anime cons I goto there is usually at least 1 person assigned to each guest. It just makes sence to me.

Now, the hero worship bits, that I disagree with...but, you'll find that in any group I think. MartialArts, fandom, amway. :D

:D

I understand that. But, I am not talking about basic courtesy and protocol. That is expected in a polite society. What I have a problem with is some egoistical martial art instructors tend to put themselve on a pedestal and demand students to pay tribute and worship. And foolishly, some people buy into that bullcrap and bow down to their instructors as if they are in the presence of the almighty. That is ridiculous. You don't treat your golf instructors that way. You don't treat your football coaches that way. You don't treat your personal trainers that way. You don't treat any other instructors/teachers that way. But when it comes to the guys who teach martial art, why should people suddenly time warped into the jurassic era?

[tshadowchaser]

I understand that. But, I am not talking about basic courtesy and protocol. That is expected in a polite society. What I have a problem with is some egoistical martial art instructors tend to put themselve on a pedestal and demand students to pay tribute and worship. And foolishly, some people buy into that bullcrap and bow down to their instructors as if they are in the presence of the almighty. That is ridiculous. You don't treat your golf instructors that way. You don't treat your football coaches that way. You don't treat your personal trainers that way. You don't treat any other instructors/teachers that way. But when it comes to the guys who teach martial art, why should people suddenly time warped into the jurassic era?

I'll agree that some people do tend to think themslefs as better than everyone else or they think they know more, or are better qualified to judge what is correct or incorrect. I do things the way I do because I respect the man/men/women, and I follow a tradition that was handed down to me. If I didn't like it or think it was the correct thing to do I'd find a different art to study. By the way I doubt my golf instructor could put me in the hospital with one well placewd punch or kick, I know damn well my Martial Arts instructor can. BUt thatis not the reason I do as I do it is because I choose to.
Much of the old way of doing for your instructor outside of the school has passed into the history of the arts. At times gone by there where "house students" these individuals where ,for lack of a better term , servents (almost slaves) of the instructor. For there services they recieved food, lodgeing, and instruction. They also where privy to many conversations and techniques that others where not. Remember if you stand behind a man a certian amount of trust is placed in you .
I belive in keeping many of the traditions I came into the arts with others do not that is most certianly there right. I just dont attack other who belive in doing it differently

[Nightingale]

my karate instructors (and black belts in general) get the same respect from me that one of my college professors or their colleagues would get. Basically, don't use the first name unless they say its okay, and follow the usual classroom protocol.

[dearnis.com]

At times gone by there where "house students" these individuals where ,for lack of a better term , servents (almost slaves) of the instructor.

Exactly. But the instructor did have to care for, feed, and clothe these students.
I teach very selfishly with one goal; to train training partners. And I really don't want training partners I don't like to be around. So I can live well without house students, customers, or anyone else who feels compelled to throw title at me, especially off the mat.
Chad

[MartialArtist]

Like I said before, I will always call certain people by their title. No exceptions, casual or otherwise. As for the bow down to me, do all my chores, fetch me water, vacuum my house... It's nothing for me to worry about, because I would never call people like that by their title in the first place. The good leaders are the ones who put in as much if not more work than you, and they are the people who do deserve to be called by their title.

There are a few exceptions. If the president of the US came to my house, then I would call him "Mr. President" no matter what he does. But since no big-name influential guy has ever come to my house, I have one less thing to worry about.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
..... I belive in keeping many of the traditions I came into the arts with others do not that is most certianly there right. I just dont attack other who belive in doing it differently....

This is a free country. If grown men see fit to be their masters' company clerks, they are certainly free to do so. If grown men want to elevate someone to the pedestal and worship, they are certainly free to do so. None of that is any of my business. Certainly not worth my attacking them for demeaning themselves. I was merely pointing out the idiosyncracy of it.

[ryansaunders]

the rules of a dojo setting dont apply to the streets, when in a dojo you call your instructor sensai or sir, but outside on the streets u simply address your instructor by their given names, this i know because i have been corrected upon by another instructor, this instructor also told me that u should never bow in public because this makes for a target. Grades shouldnt come into effect when out a group. Me and my instructor have a completey diffrent kind of relationship when in the dojo, he insists that his students call him sensai, but ive known my instructor prior, because i used to work for him and he still now insists upon me calling him by his first name, i know this comes down to personal choice with instructors:asian:

[tshadowchaser]

OK I really have to ask. Who is putting whom on a pedestal and worshiping ?
I don't recall anyone in this thread saying they worship their instructor. Respect, maybe, treat them as an instructor at all times not as a friend, maybe, but worship, I think not.
These people are people not gods.

Sorry I am not friends with my students, we dont go drinking togeather, we might eat togeather once in a while but I buy. WE lead different life styles and do not work at the same place. We have a 20+ or so difference in age give or take depending on the person. The music I listen to most likely is not what they listen to. The common ground we have is the art I teach. To them the war I was in is history to me its a memory. Give me another 10 years and I may have a different answere some of them may be my friends by then.

When I am in the pressence of my instructor or the head of my system I am honored to be there and I dont think myslef any less a person for respecting them for what they are to me.

If I studied with a friend I would most likely do as many have stated In class he would be MR. or Sir or what ever title the system required and outside we would use our commen names. That is because we would have a common friendship and a martial relationship with the outside friendship perhaps comeing befor I ever studied

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
These people are people not gods.

But some like to be treated as such. You're right though .. it all
boils down to personal opinion and what each can do willingly.
Personally, if I was ORDERED to go get a b.b's bag and that's the
S.O.P. ... and had to open doors for him/her, and call them by
some wicked title .... I wouldn't be their student.

[Jill666]

And yes, I call both my dentist and my physician by their first names outside the office. I also have their cell/home phone numbers- because I have doctors that care about their patients and see themselves as someone who works with the patient toward a certain goal, not someone who has something they will dole out if paid and revered enough.

But maybe that just me.

As for being adressed as Mrs. by a lower ranking student just because I have a black belt :erg: I wouldn't know what to do if that ever happened!

[7starmantis]

There is a beginner student at my school who everytime he sees me addresses me a sir. Not sir Adam, or Adam sir, strictly sir. "Hello, sir" , "How are you sir?". That kind of thing. I stopped him and told him that I'm not even his instructor, just to call me Adam. He said that I should be willing to accept his simple way of showing respect to me. Kind of made me think. We have become closer out of class and he is down to just a bow and then calling me by my first name, but I don't see any reason to steal from him the enjoyment of showing respect, even if it makes me uncomfortable. My instructor is strictly sifu to me. It just shows respect and is actually shorter to say than his name! :D When we go out, Sifus are not supposed to drive, also Sifu is never to pay for his own meal. Now, living in 2003 that doesn't happen, we try to do the things we can, if there are several of us he might let us pay for his meal, otherwise he will fightt us for the check. I think its all about your heart. If your trying to show respect but don't have the money to pay for him, is that not still showing respect? Just for us to offer to pay his check is enough. I think its a personal thing, I greet him outside of class as Sifu, but we can crack jokes and laugh and do whatever. In class is different because I work at my school and we are examples, its more formal in class, but even then, our formality would be considered disrespect to some.

7sm

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
OK I really have to ask. Who is putting whom on a pedestal and worshiping ?
I don't recall anyone in this thread saying they worship their instructor. Respect, maybe, treat them as an instructor at all times not as a friend, maybe, but worship, I think not.
These people are people not gods.
...

Assuming you were talking to me, my reference was not directed at any specific person on this thread. I don't know who here is an instructor instead of a student. Don't really care to know either.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
To bad for those who can't learn from a friend.
I actually push these guys and gals harder because I care about them.

I never said anything about caring...

I know my instructor cares about me and what happens to me.
We share a bond, as teacher and student. It is one of love and respect.
Though I must admit, I am in total awe of him.

Having said that though, much as I would love to be his friend, I still prefer the distance between us so that I am forced to stretch.

--Dave

:asian:

[D.Cobb]

Of course, there was the time when I trained in American Kenpo. There was a group of us had gathered at the home of one of the senior students, for some informal training and a bit of a chat.

We were sitting eating buiscuts and drinking coffee. I was giving one of the brown belts a hard time because his attendance had dropped off recently. He made a comment about respecting senior rank.

The senior student, who happened to be the highest ranked in school and also the owner of the house, made the comment that rank doesn't count outside of class.

Our instructor looked at him and asked, "Are you sure about that?" as he took the buiscut from his hand and put it in his own mouth.

His response, "Well I could be wrong....."

--Dave

:D

[mtabone]

Now that is a great story D.Cobb


I will have to remember that one...




:D

Michael Tabone

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Kirk
If the people who outranked me expected to be able to make
me do pushups, or wait until they decide to eat, or be errand
boy for them or anything else outside of the classroom, that'd be
the day I stop being a student there. I call my instructor "Mr
Abernathy" at all times, and he's never said to do otherwise.
But if a bunch of us are going out to dinner, out for drinks, or
whatever outside of the school, I'll eat when I decide to eat.
They can carry their own equipment to and from their vehicles,
they're adults, fully capable. I didn't sign up to learn kenpo so
I could be somebody's lacky.

Kirk, I think you're missing the point. I'm an American too, and I'm not about to be a lacky to anyone either. In addition, I'm not into kissing anyone's ass. However, I do think our instuctors do merit respect outside the dojang/dojo.

Whenever I see my master instructor in public I show him his due respect because he deserves it. He's teaching me his eastern Art, and he doesn't make me pound out 20 pushups up on the spot when I see him outside the dojang either.

He knows I've learned to respect him for what he has thaught me, and he respects me because I've been so dedicated and so hard core about trying to learn about what he's teaching us... :asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
Kirk, I think you're missing the point. I'm an American too, and I'm not about to be a lacky to anyone either. In addition, I'm not into kissing anyone's ass. However, I do think our instuctors do merit respect outside the dojang/dojo.

Whenever I see my master instructor in public I show him his due respect because he deserves it. He's teaching me his eastern Art, and he doesn't make me pound out 20 pushups up on the spot when I see him outside the dojang either.

He knows I've learned to respect him for what he has thaught me, and he respects me because I've been so dedicated and so hard core about trying to learn about what he's teaching us... :asian:

There are quite a few ma-ists that I've talked to on a personal
level where being a lackey, and getting "punished" by their
"master" does happen.

[bob919]

same respect but it should not be a case of people being treated as inferior because of their rank

[tonbo]

I have great respect for the owner/head instructor of our school. He is a fun guy to hang out with, as well as an exceptional martial artist. He is also a great mentor.....all while being very humble and modest.

A couple of weeks ago, he and I met for dinner after class to discuss my managing one of our school locations. We had a good dinner, and, when the check came, I grabbed it before he could. He looked at me and said, "No, I'm getting this one." I argued, saying I would feel better if he would let me get it. He let in with the, "I asked *you* to dinner, so *I* need to pay." I responded with, "Yeah, but I'll feel insulted if you don't let me pay". His counter? "I already feel insulted. You should let me pay."

Well, we argued (good-naturedly!) back and forth, and I wrote out the check, thinking all was finalized. My instructor kept saying, "You realize that won't work.". No, I thought, I had him on this one......

The waiter came to get the bill; as he did, my instructor got up and asked him if he had any additional napkins, so he could wipe up a small spill of his water. The waiter nodded, and reached over to another table (empty) to get a couple. For that brief moment, I looked away....maybe a second at the most....and my instructor had grabbed the bill and had his credit card in hand. He handed both to the waiter and smiled. I tried to hand the waiter my check, saying I was paying for the dinner, but my instructor waved me off, saying to the waiter, "No, I've got it. He'll get the next one.". As he sat down again, my instructor just smiled. He said, "Next time that you ask *me* to dinner, *you* can pick up the check".

Fine. He won that one. But next time.....;)

Anyway, the point to this is that, despite being out of the school, I still have *respect* for my instructor. I am happy to pay for his dinner, as I would with any other of my friends; however, I don't feel a mindless-lackey type need to go wash his car or clean his house or anything like that.

I also gotta respect his speed and deception. He was DAMN fast in getting that ticket away from me. 'Course, I *knew* he was fast, after having sparred him for years.....:rofl:

Peace--

[Kirk]

Great story tonbo!

[jdmills]

It's a personal decision and it depends on the circumstances. It never occurred to me to call Mr. Parker anything but Mr. Parker. I was not one of his senior students, or even a black belt. We did not have that kind of a relationship and it would have been incredibly disrespectful (not to mention stupid) for me to call him "Ed". When I studied under Joe Palanzo, I also called him Mr. Palanzo and it never occurred to me to call him anything else. My first instructor was an old friend and of course, I naturally called him Paul. Again, it never really occurred to me to call him anything else.

I guess I'm just a creature of habit.

[YouAgain]

this needs to be upped.


its a real interesting read!

[LadyDragon]

No matter what, a senior is always a senior. Some amount of respect must be shown. But if you ask me, whem in a casual setting, its just that, casual. I was brought up with the mind set that those who are older than you are treated with respect. Therefore, I will out of shear habit from my up bringing call my seniors Mr. and/or Ms. X. Even in a casual setting. But as for assistant instructors and such, I'll more than likely call them by their first name.

[OULobo]

As long as I have repect for the person it is always sir (or mame). This applies to high rank, low rank, no rank, on the mat, off the mat. The only time I stray from this is when I am asked to call them something else that fits thier station, like doctor, professor, sensei, saya, guru, chief, ect.

[Turner]

How is it possible for rank to apply outside of class? I was in the Military and taught at the base gym. I was a E-4 and EVERY SINGLE student that I had outranked me in rank and in age. I couldn't imagine trying to get the Lt. Col. to clean my dorm room or something.

Rank is always a matter of perception. When I am in uniform I would salute the Lt. Col and show him the utmost respect, snapping to attention when he spoke to me. When he was in my class room, he would salute me and snap to attention when I spoke to him.

When we were both out of uniform we were friends. We both held high respect for each other and treated each other as equals. Respect is mandatory both inside and outside the place of practice or the place of work. You respect the person because of his or her achievements and simply because they are another person and no matter what they are deserving of some of your respect. Respect should always be (in the ideal world) mutual. I wouldn't have much respect for an intructor who expected me to pay for his class and then mow his lawn. I can't stand the idea of my students trying to get me to eat first. The first rule of leadership is that you take care of your people before you think of yourself. It's always been my habit to make sure that everyone else has had some pizza before I even think about getting some for me.

Now, I have had exceptional instruction that came at a low price and I was very willing to help the instructor out when it came to setting up for lessons and cleaning the school afterwards. He would travel 3 hours to get to the school and only charge $30 a month which would barely pay for his gas to get back and forth so I didn't think nothing of going above and beyond and cleaning up the school and setting things up so that he could get in and out. Would I wash his car or mow his grass? Not in the least. I respect the man, but I am not his servant. I have respect for a great many people, but I expect to be treated as an equal.

What would I do for someone that I respected? Probably quite a bit. If he needed help moving, I'd be willing to grab one end of the couch and help him out. Anything that I may do for a friend I would do for the instructor, but the moment he started expecting me to lend a hand without a sign of appreciation... just expecting me to do it because I'm the student and he's the instructor... I'd have a problem.

[Astra]

My instructor is just a normal guy even at classes.. makes it easy for me, as I don't have to worry about my attitude towards him :)

He likes to joke about it saying that we're all just one big group of best friends, and then sarcastically sais "This has got to stop, I want respect! :p " :)

[KenpoTess]

I had an instructor back in Florida who was a total lech outside of the dojo.. He was not a nice human being and at the time, I was 'awed' by him as a wonderful Martial artist, so we basically did the old school thing and did what he bade us do.. I know longer speak to that instructor and could care less.

New Instructor...
I've grown alot as a person .. thank goodness.. When Mr. Conatser comes up, it's Mr. C. or his first name.. depending on the topic of conversation and the place.. we do honor time old traditions of waiting for the Senior belt to start eating.. it's respectful .. not subserviant in anyway at least not to our group. Sure I don't mind assisting by carrying a bag or helping out.. but Mr. Conatser never makes us feel like we are beneath his feet.. He is an exceptional Person and Martial Artist, I do it out of pure respect. He's been in the Arts for over 30 yrs.. And shares his knowledge.. Darn right I'm no where his equal in that area.. as a fellow human .. course we are equal.. but that wasn't the question :)

As far as pulling rank in our school, The yellow belts are as due the same respect as the brown belts in my eyes, if a brown belt is being an ass.. I'll call them on it.. same with the yellow belt..
Respect to each other as people should be earned.. Respect in a sense of it's a tradition to stop class when a BB enters the room.. Respect to your Instructor, Respecting yourself.. that is a slightly different definition of the word..


JMHO

Tess

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
.. but Mr. Conatser never makes us feel like we are beneath his feet.. He is an exceptional Person and Martial Artist,

I agree very much.:asian:

He is a man among men.:asian:

[Seig]

Originally posted by RCastillo
I've been through all the things that have been mentioned, and I have mixed feelings about some of it.

But I will say this for myself. I prefer to be called by my first name, it's not necessary for you to do anything special for me. But, I will do it for you. I'm just like you, and I have my strengths, and weaknesses.

I'm just a teacher, nothing more.:asian:
How would you feel if one of your High School students called you Rick instead of Mr. Castillo?

[Seig]

Everything needs to be considered on a person by person, case by case basis.
In the school, I am Mr. Seigel, period. Outside of the school, I am Mike, depending on the situation. If we go to a resteraunt, I usually eat first. Why? Because that is the way my instructor has asked my students to do it. Do I have a problem with it? No. The reason being that I was raised that at supper time, Dad or the oldest person at the table ate first. If Dad started eating and Mom had not sat down yet, I waited until either she did or she told me to eat. It's just good manners. We had a BBQ at the school a few weeks ago and I was running the grill, the students and parents got quite aggrivated at me for waiting until everyone had eaten before I got anything for myself. My reasoning? I was the host and therefore had a responsibilty to my guests. Do I expect them to work for me? No. If I need help, I ask them, but I also find a way to pay them, ie, I feed them. I will not pay them in cash. By the same token, if they ask for my help, I provide it. It's a two way street. When Mr. Conatser is here, I make sure he has his meal first, because I am the host and he is the guest. He is also almost 20 years older than I. I take good manners fairly seriously. I feel that Mr. C in addition to being my teacher and mentor is a good friend. I cannot bring myself to call him Dennis, I find it intolerably rude. My TKD instructor when I was younger insisted that after I graduated high school that he was Tim. I couldn't do it. I had been calling him Mr. Smith for 10 years already. I did nearly anything he asked, not out of subservience but out of love. He never charged me for lessons or testing. How could I not do things for him? Did I mow his lawn? A few times when he was out of town. Did he ask? No. He did not even know until he got back and found the chores he expected to find waiting for him done. His answer to me, a heart felt thank you. So, it all depends on you and the situation.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Seig
How would you feel if one of your High School students called you Rick instead of Mr. Castillo?


Oh Boy, is this a fovorite of mine.

There is an old friend from High School who I all John (*not real name *) and he calls me Rich. If I introduce him in a Club it is Master Smith (* not real Last name *), and the same back. We study different arts :D, yet have respect for the others achievments, yet we are old buds.

I showed up once at a place he was to be at and asked for John. They all looked at me like I was stone crazy, there is no John Here. I siad a JOhn Smith and they all said you mean Master Smith. ;) I smiled and said excuse me yes, that is who I meant.

Although on the matts, the person in front of the class is a sir or mame, no matter their rank :)

[SenseiBear]

Sensei is always Sensei. I couldn't call him anything else... Our class does go out socially at times, and all of the rest of us blackbelts revert to a first name basis with each other and the lower ranks, but Sensei is always Sensei -

And I agree, in class, everyone is sir or ma'am... no matter what their rank. I don't think there is an official rule about this, at least not in the 12 years I've been here, but nothing else would feel appropriate - I take other classes and I've been told by the instructor and other students, "call me X" or "Don't call me sir, my name is X"... but I can't stop. On the mat, this politeness seems called for...

[dragonbyte]

Normally, I just read posts but this subject has me thinking. (let the flames begin.....)
How can you not show your Teacher the utmost repect and Honor at all times regardless of where you are at? It doesn't matter if you are in the school are at McDonalds I feel you should always grant them their due.
All of my Instructors have EARNED the right to be respected and honored.
You who say it only applies while in the school IMHO do not honestly respect your Teacher for what he is giving to you. So you pay your monthly dues and show up....big deal! Have you ever stopped to think about how much time and effort they are investing in you and how much time and effort they went thru to learn for themselves. The traditions that some schools teach are ones that our society is lacking and I for one would not have it any other way. We salute our instructors, call them SIR or MAM, open the doors for them , carry bags, fetch what they need because it is the right thing to do. When you earn the rank of Black Belt in our school, you deserve it. It has nothing to do with ego's and everything to do with respect and honor. If I eat before the Black Belts then I do pushups, and I'm not upset about it....neither are any of the students because all of us want to repect our Instructors. I would pay the same respect and do the same for your teachers or even you if you outrank me and are at my school (or McDonalds), and I can tell you for sure that I don't worship you.
In giving respect you get respect, I cannot understand why some people think that they are the equal of their Teachers and still want to learn from them, are you his or her equal? Are you sure it not your EGO that stops you from doing these time honored traditions? Can you not afford to pay for a meal for your Instructor as he did for his? Its your school to so take 10 minutes and clean it up, have pride in what you do. We who train in Martial Arts are different from most people. Most people do not hold the door for others, never use Sir or Mam, care only for their own needs and not for the needs of others. I feel better when I do things for the people I care about, and these people are my Kenpo family. If you do not feel the same then I feel sorry for you. I have seem many young students who have taken this tradition of respect home with them and changed how they deal with people around them. Their parents, teachers, relatives notice and approve of how this benifits them with their relationships and how they react to others. Again I say is it their Ego or yours that concerns you. Humble yourself, and you raise yourself up. I am no where near the top of the ladder and have been involved with my school for many years...yet I will always be indebt to my Teacher for the pearls he cast before us. You who feel your Teacher is your friend are right, my Teacher has been like a Father to me at times and I would never call my father by his first name. I would hold the door for my uncle and would help my grandfather with his bags. If my Aunt was thirsty would I tell her she can get her own drink while we are at a tournament, or I'll get it but she pays?.....sad, sad, sad. At the same time my little brothers and sisters look up to me and imitate the things I do, learning proper dojo etiquett at the same time, and RESPECT for our "Elders" in the Art.
My EGO knows I have much to learn and I can only learn by being open and respectful. Does this mean I have no pride? Or does it mean I have great pride in my school and my Teacher? If for some reason you have only witnessed this showing of respect from the outside (saw another school at a tourny or seminar) and not been in a school that does these things then maybe you are missing something. If you can only say "I would never carry someone elses bags or be their lacky" your cup is full and your EGO fuller. I WOULD BE SURPRIZED WHAT YOUR TEACHER THINKS OF YOU, IF YOU THINK SO little OF HIM OR HER.
Feel free to flame away!


Sir's and Mam's, with all RESPECT
Dragonbyte
:asian:

[Aegis]

Originally posted by dragonbyte
How can you not show your Teacher the utmost repect and Honor at all times regardless of where you are at? It doesn't matter if you are in the school are at McDonalds I feel you should always grant them their due.
All of my Instructors have EARNED the right to be respected and honored.

As have mine. However, in my orginisation the instructors expect to be treated as normal people off the mat, to the extent that they will specifically tell people NOT to call them sensei outside the dojo.

Respect goes deeper than what you do en masse. If you "respect" your instructor by doing exactly what everyone else does, it's forced respect and doesn't show anything but the fact that you can obey orders. I would consider most of the people who have taught me to be close friends, people I can share a joke with, go out drinking with, and generally have a good time with, all without having to worry about the constraints of a formal teacher/student relationship. I have the utmost respect for all of my teachers, but I don't expect to be a servant to them off them mat, and they don't expect any of their students to do so. We have a very close-knit community within our art, and every gets to know everyone else, both off and on the mat.

On the mat is a different question. There the relationship becomes very professional. No favouratism is shown, and the standard "obey" response is drilled into everyone from day one. the instructors are not expected to help with the mats or equipment, but they don't expect to have doors held open for them wherever they go, beyond what you would normally do for a friend.

I feel it is a very good working relationship, and instills a sense of respect that works in both directions.

[rmcrobertson]

Good lord. Instructors in kenpo actually expect students to hold doors, carry bags, eat after they do? Eeeeeww.

I have to say that it's been my experience, throughout grad school and martial arts over going far too rapidly on thirty years, that anybody who demands this level of, "respect," (I prefer the word, "grovelling," in this case) doesn't deserve it. In fact, it's been my experience that (with two exceptions, both women in their sixties) every single one of the most-famous, best-respected scholars and kenpo people I've met all shook my hand and said, "Hi, I'm Bob," or, "Hi, I'm Ed," or, "Hi, I'm Barbara," or "Hi, I'm Larry," or whatever it was.

I'm told by my first instructor--her name's Toni--that Mr. Parker was exactly the same way in person.

But I don't expect that anybody who doesn't already know what's wrong here will be convinced. I find it more useful, then to ask a question: doesn't this level of behavior really only make sense in contexts like Imperial Japan? or in very traditional Chinese gung fu studies?

Good manners--guests get taken care of first--fine. But why would we want to act like we lived in the seventeenth century, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away?

Oh, and PS. I do outrank the guy from Kansas, big deal. And I'm older, sigh. But I would be absolutely horrified--I'd wonder what I did wrong--if anybody, for any reason, started behaving that way around me. In fact, I'd start wondering what the hell I'd been doing by the way of arrogance, to encourage that sort of obsequiousness...and I'd damn sure squash it out...

[kenpo2dabone]

I would have to say that it depends. If you are on an outing that is organized by the school for the students or even if it is something like a bunch of poeple going out for dinner after a seminar or something then rank should be recagnized if your school opperates that way. If you happen to be friends with a few people at your school and you hang out on a regular basis then rank should not matter. All the instructors at my original school use to go out every Thursday night for drinks and rank was not observed so it really depends on the school and the individuals in it.

Salute,
Mike Miller UkF

[dragonbyte]

Good lord. Instructors in kenpo actually expect students to hold doors, carry bags, eat after they do? Eeeeeww.
Not all KENPO Instructors I'm sure, but the best I personally know do (granted I haven't had the HONOR of being around all of them yet)

I have to say that it's been my experience, throughout grad school and martial arts over going far too rapidly on thirty years, that anybody who demands this level of, "respect," (I prefer the word, "grovelling," in this case) doesn't deserve it.

Without personally knowing the people I have trained under, I would not be so quick as to say who is deserving. As for "grovelling" I would say you obviously do not know me or understand traditional respect.

Good manners--guests get taken care of first--fine. But why would we want to act like we lived in the seventeenth century, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away?

Ah, to live in a place and/or time of Honor and respect compaired to our society today-easy choice.

I'm told by my first instructor--her name's Toni--that Mr. Parker was exactly the same way in person.

Where do you think this started, SGM Ed Parker, He was treated the same way and these traditions are directly from how things were done.


As for all Kenpo schools having the same ways of showing RESPECT as the one I attend, I doubt it. I cannot speak for the Seniors in the art-only myself who has only been involved for 15 years or so, and am not a Black Belt yet. Traditions of respect for "Elders" and persons that have put in more time and effort Have nothing to do with Worshiping, being subservent or feeding someones EGO other than mine for Giving them the Respect they deserve.

Lastly, Mr/Mrs rmcrobertson (can't tell by profile) if you have not been apart of a school that does these things you may not understand or may have a misconception about "peoples Ego's" or what is really going on. I would suggest that you would get to know some of these people for a better understanding. And for some thoughts from others about does this help in your standing for testing...I would say not, If you don't have "IT" you don't get it, I have never seen anyone in our orginization get promoted for anything other than skill and hard work-never "kissing butt".


P.S You say you outrank me and I'm sure thats true. I would hold a door for you also, help with bags and even wait to you had started eating before I did. Would I grovel to you....Not, but I would respect your rank and achevment (sp?). Just as I expect respect also...

IMHO we have the best enviroment for learning and teaching at our school and it has been handed down to us from the best Teacher the Martial Arts have ever know SGM Ed Parker. If you don't get it then you don't...My EGO will survive, My Pride is intact.....mabey you should expect a little more where you are at? I couldn't say cause I haven't been there I don't know what school, style or org with whom you belong.

Humbly in all Respect,
Dragonbyte

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dragonbyte
Good lord. Instructors in kenpo actually expect students to hold doors, carry bags, eat after they do? Eeeeeww.
Not all KENPO Instructors I'm sure, but the best I personally know do (granted I haven't had the HONOR of being around all of them yet)

I have to say that it's been my experience, throughout grad school and martial arts over going far too rapidly on thirty years, that anybody who demands this level of, "respect," (I prefer the word, "grovelling," in this case) doesn't deserve it.

Without personally knowing the people I have trained under, I would not be so quick as to say who is deserving. As for "grovelling" I would say you obviously do not know me or understand traditional respect.

Good manners--guests get taken care of first--fine. But why would we want to act like we lived in the seventeenth century, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away?

Ah, to live in a place and/or time of Honor and respect compaired to our society today-easy choice.

I'm told by my first instructor--her name's Toni--that Mr. Parker was exactly the same way in person.

Where do you think this started, SGM Ed Parker, He was treated the same way and these traditions are directly from how things were done.


As for all Kenpo schools having the same ways of showing RESPECT as the one I attend, I doubt it. I cannot speak for the Seniors in the art-only myself who has only been involved for 15 years or so, and am not a Black Belt yet. Traditions of respect for "Elders" and persons that have put in more time and effort Have nothing to do with Worshiping, being subservent or feeding someones EGO other than mine for Giving them the Respect they deserve.

Lastly, Mr/Mrs rmcrobertson (can't tell by profile) if you have not been apart of a school that does these things you may not understand or may have a misconception about "peoples Ego's" or what is really going on. I would suggest that you would get to know some of these people for a better understanding. And for some thoughts from others about does this help in your standing for testing...I would say not, If you don't have "IT" you don't get it, I have never seen anyone in our orginization get promoted for anything other than skill and hard work-never "kissing butt".


P.S You say you outrank me and I'm sure thats true. I would hold a door for you also, help with bags and even wait to you had started eating before I did. Would I grovel to you....Not, but I would respect your rank and achevment (sp?). Just as I expect respect also...

IMHO we have the best enviroment for learning and teaching at our school and it has been handed down to us from the best Teacher the Martial Arts have ever know SGM Ed Parker. If you don't get it then you don't...My EGO will survive, My Pride is intact.....mabey you should expect a little more where you are at? I couldn't say cause I haven't been there I don't know what school, style or org with whom you belong.

Humbly in all Respect,
Dragonbyte


I can't even believe I'm seeing this, subservience to the rescue. I'm gonna go drink my Kool-aid now. BTW, Robert is a third black at Larry Tatum's in Pasadena.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Astra]

Where both I and my instructor stand on this issue:

Someone is somehow better then me because he knows martial arts better? Rubbish. It simply means he has spent more time on martial arts and less time on other things. Could you immagine waiting until your friend finishes eating when the difference between the two of you is that he has a PhD and you don't?

I'm all for showing respect to your instructor(s), but what you described, if forced on, seems to have the slight feeling of a McDojo.

Respect can be shown/had in different ways. Not by only age-old formal etiquette.

Look at it this way: Do you kiss every woman's hand upon meeting? :)

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Astra
Look at it this way: Do you kiss every woman's hand upon meeting? :)

tried it. Gave up when my face was numb from slaps. ;)

Joking, before anyone actually takes me seriously!

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, wow. Since this is kinda turning into slapping instructors, let me just mention a coupla things and run like crazy.

First off, I've never heard before of Mr. Parker demanding this sort of, "respect." Could you explain where you're getting these stories from, exactly?

Second off, I think you're also relying on a very exaggerated version of martial arts traditions. Were students respectful? Yep. Did they actually do this sort of, "sit outside in the rain, holding up a bowl of rice," routine? Nope--apparently, that comes from 19th-century Chinese novels, not from places like Shaolin--which incidentally, was very far from being any monastery. And some of this exaggeration comes, I suspect, from the fact that a lot of traditional arts were taught in families, so that respect for one's instructor and respect for one's dad in a Confucian culture were all tangled up together.

But third--fairly early on, I heard a quote from one of Mr. Parker's books which I commend to you: "Bow to things, but salute people." You might also want to look up, say, the Army's explanation of what a salute means---it certainly doesn't mean bowing and scraping before one's betters...

Sorry to stick to my point on this, but I really do think that this stuff is just plain wrong.

[dragonbyte]

Sir, I would not and have not meant to "slap" at your Instructor. (I meet Mr. Tatum briefly at Mr Trejo's Internationals, know a person who has tested under him, is now trainig in his system, and seen Mr. Tatum move on video and in clips, which shows he has great skill). If I made that impression it is because I may not be the best at putting my ideas and thoughts from my head onto a computer screen. As I try to get across my views it would not be my intent to be disrespectful to any in the art, it is not how I was taught. I would state that anything I write is only my opinion and observations.
I strongly believe that it is not belittleing to anyone to show respect the way we do. I think that "to feel is to believe" and without experiencing it, in our setting you cannot know. My experience with my Instructor is I see him humble to GOD, kind and warm to his students, true to SGM Parkers teaching, Respectful to others, and a Honest and caring man. We do what we want to Honor him because we want to, not by force or threat in any way.

As for SGM Parker, I have heard and read from many sources that SGM Parker acted, and taught differently and was addressed differently to different people. (how many Black Belts does it take to screw in a light bulb.....1 to do it and 99 to say thats not the way SGM Parker showed me...just a joke I read). I don't think I said he demanded it, but I will recheck my post.
I having also studied some in Kung Fu, JKD, FMA and being now part in (by marrage) a Chinese family, I understand why the traditions are kept and IMHO are a good thing. Been to China and seen and interacted with Shaolin "monks" and understand (not agree) why they do the things they do. (got a few interesting stories from that trip)
Seeing that I cannot get my point across and out of respect I will drop this subject for my part unless directly contacted. As it is an interesting subject and I would like to discuss it, I also would like to keep any references about specific Instructors out of public as I speak only for myself and my views. I would happly have you call me collect and will give you my number if you E-mail me (Mr. O'Briant or others posting on this topic as well).
With respect,
Dragonbyte
Rons@houseofschwan.com

[rmcrobertson]

Um...when I'm on a forum, I'm afraid I don't do private messages.

If I may offer a bit of advice--and following out your own logic--don't assume that the way other people do things is necessarily inferior. Even though sometimes, it is. And I might add that while I certaainly wasn't around, the folks I know who were around when Mr. Parker was around NEVER saw him behave this way. Even on ceremonial occasions--the man certainly had his flaws, but I've got a tape of a 1985 black/brown test, and demanding bowing and scraping sure doesn't look like it was one of those flaws.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that of the kenpo folks like James Ibrao, Chuck Sullivan, Frank Trejo, Steve Herring, I've briefly met beyond my own little circle, all are as far as I can see quite unpretentious. In fact, I get the disturbing impression that they're all pretty much nicer people than me.

Just as something to think about: a quote from Golda Meir that I love: "Don't be so humble. You're not that great."

It's worth considering, I think, that sometimes expressions of humility and respect might have within them a big streak of arrogance. There's a book you might look up by Chogyam Trungpa (of Naropa Institute in Boulder, a hotbed of insane "respect," under Trungpa, himself a real putz-and-a-half) titled, "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism." Basically, he argues that pride in one's spiritual attainments is exactly like pride in one's new car--it's another way to hang on to a false attachment, a cheap toy, rather than to really engage what's important. Trungpa himself, of course, apparently hung onto vodka, and limos, and sex with his students, and a lot of arrogance himself--and demanded an exaggerated obeisance from everybody in the community.

There's a good, old article in "Esquire," about the time at a spiritual retreat in Aspen (!) the Big Guy, Trungpa, had his Buddhist police (!) try to drag the poet W.S. Merwin out of bed with his girlfriend and downstairs to an audience with the Grand Poohbah. Merwin shoved one guy and laid a beer bottle up side the next guy's head before he got swarmed. He's been my favorite modern poet ever since.

I'm sorry, again, to disagree so strongly. But this stuff's dangerous. And for whatever reason--I wonder if it isn't the radical nature of kenpo--we (and I mean, "we") do seem to have a problem with it, across the board.

Thank you for the discussion, which I certainly think is worth having.

[Mikey]

I have been reading all these posts and just can't sit here anymore and not post anything........so, here is my two cents.
I feel that everyone is entitled to their opinion, this include's Dragonbyte, RmcRobertson, myself, and everyone else......you do things your way and we do things our way.....whose to say who is right or wrong.....You think we're wrong and We think You're wrong......it's all about respect and being humble to those who have paid the price already, so I think it's time to agree to disagree, but there does not need to be mud slinging on the web, (Anyone can be a BadA&& with a screen in front of them), Our Dojo does things our way, we feel that it is respectful to do so, BTW I am in the same Dojo as Dragonbyte, so I guess say what you want.
My email is also on my profile if anyone would like to contact me as well.

With Respect

Mike.

[rmcrobertson]

What mud-slinging? Only mud I saw was the repeated claim that people who thought the way I do lack respect, and must not be getting taught it by their instructors.

It was integral to your last post: "it's all about respect and being humble to those who have paid the price already, so I think it's time to agree to disagree, but there does not need to be mud slinging on the web, (Anyone can be a BadA&& with a screen in front of them)," you wrote, relying on a binary opposition between yourself (those who know about respect and being humble) and myself (well, you fill in the blank).

While I don't necessarily assume I'm absolutely right in this or any other case, I will say what I've said before: "Don't keep your mind so open that your brain falls out."

It's funny. Folks like me, who so often get accused of teaching, "cultural relativism," and here I am getting accused of sticking up for certain solid standards...I mean, are we supposed to say stuff like,"Well, I don't agree with Hitler, but everybody's entitled to their point of view?"

But instead of even risking mudding anybody, could you just show me where I'm wrong? Could you give me some place where Mr. Parker asked for the sort of--let's just say, "behavior"--you're describing? Could you show me where I'm specifically wrong in what I've written about the history of the martial arts? Could you point out an anecdote I've mentioned that's patently untrue, or show me where I've been illogical? Could you explain the difference between ritual, respect and obsequiousness in some fashion I'll understand?

Otherwise, I'll have to pull one of those Captain-Kirk-defeats-NOMAD dealyboppers, and point out that if I'm your senior in the art, you should be accepting everything I write as gospel truth...including telling you not to accept everything your seniors say as gospel truth...

But instead, I'll probably just clam up. I've said pretty much everything I've wanted to say--not that that necessarily stops me--and I don't really see the point of a yelling match.

[Ceicei]

Ok, so much debating here...

Let's simplify something here with a question. A lot of people seem to think it's the same thing....

What's the difference between courtesy and respect?

- Ceicei

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I actually think they're closely related, what with courtesy simply being the outward show or visible sign of respect. However, one issue that these terms raise is that it is quite possible to be extremely respectful while appearing to be discourteous to outsiders.

I'll ask a question or two back: when does courtesy become--something else? And isn't courtesy culturally coded, tied to specific practices that are appropriate at certain times and in certain places? And a Freudian biggie--are there times when "courtesy," is a cover for issues of transference and counter-transference?

[Nightingale]

"bow to things, salute to people..."

interesting quote.

[MichiganTKD]

Proper respect and address apply both in and out of class. Obviously, in class all Instructors and Masters are to be addressed properly and lining up is done according to proper etiquette.
However, outside of class, in a social setting, proper etiquette still applies. I address fellow Instructors in the proper way out of respect, as I do our Grandmaster. I could NEVER call him by name, even in a social setting. In a restaurant or other setting, our Grandmaster decides who he wants sitting near him. Usually his senior students, though sometimes it is a junior students he wants to talk to. I usually end up sitting near him if not directly next to him. These spots are reserved for his Senior Instructors.
This is what separates traditional arts from simple fighting styles. The philosophy of "Do" carries over outside the dojang as well as inside. In other words, proper manners and etiquette toward fellow students and Instructors applies regardless of where you are.
Regarding the brown belt who cut front of the yellow belts, normally the black belts would set him straight during free fighting:boing2:

[MichiganTKD]

There is a big difference between demanding respect because of alleged rank in supposed style, how many patches you have on your uniform, number of stripes on you belt, and earning respect from students because of the years, sweat, aggravation, and effort you invested making your students what they are.
I have carried gear for my Grandmaster, run errands, bought expensive gifts, and acted as a gofer for him. Because he demanded it? He never demanded anything of me except hard work and practice. I did all this, and would continue to do this, because of the tremendous respect I have for him and everything he gave me. This man has invested 40+ years of his life, thousands of dollars, and months of travel time to ensure we had the greatest Tae Kwon Do education available to us. Carrying the occasional box or buying him a meal is the LEAST I can do for all he has given me. I am not his slave, just tremendously grateful for what he's done for me. Likewise, I demand nothing of my students except hard work and trying. Whatever they do for me they do because they love class and Tae Kwon Do.

[WLMantisKid]

In our school there's two ranks - Student and Sifu. Us students call eachother by our names and always greet the new guys with enthusiasm and make sure they know all of us. During class, we are silent and do exactly as Sifu tells us. Afterwards, we shoot the crap and talk for a bit before we head home. We work on projects around the school and practice our new movements. He's still Sifu to us out of school, but it's more like "Sifu, those sandals will fit you good, they're not too big" instead of "Yes, Sifu sir"

[Aegis]

This is what separates traditional arts from simple fighting styles. The philosophy of "Do" carries over outside the dojang as well as inside. In other words, proper manners and etiquette toward fellow students and Instructors applies regardless of where you are.

I do jujutsu (far more traditional than TKD in terms of age of the art) and nothing of the sort happens. My instructors all insist on being called by their names off the mat and treated as exactly what they are: normal people who happen to share a common interest with you. We go out and have drinks together, tell each other crude jokes, insult each other in a friendly way, etc. If he asked me to carry a bag for him I'd probably do so, but he'd do the same back if I asked him to. We respect our instructors, but they aren't gods, we aren't required to practically worship them. I think most instructors in my style would feel really uncomfortable if you treated them any way other than the one I just outlined.

[Marginal]

I do jujutsu (far more traditional than TKD in terms of age of the art) and nothing of the sort happens. My instructors all insist on being called by their names off the mat and treated as exactly what they are: normal people who happen to share a common interest with you. We go out and have drinks together, tell each other crude jokes, insult each other in a friendly way, etc. If he asked me to carry a bag for him I'd probably do so, but he'd do the same back if I asked him to. We respect our instructors, but they aren't gods, we aren't required to practically worship them. I think most instructors in my style would feel really uncomfortable if you treated them any way other than the one I just outlined.

As someone in TKD, I can say that nothing annoys me faster than a lower rank trying to enforce/observe etiquette. Can't stand it when they insist I walk through a door etc ahead of them simply because I started training a year or two before they did. As far as accomplishments go, it's a very thin one IMO.

[TigerWoman]

On the other hand, nothing annoys me more than a lower rank telling me,
a black belt, unasked too, what he thinks is wrong with my kick. So I politely tell him what he thinks is wrong is probably not in the picture. And he says, well that's a nice story, but... At that point, I tell the KID that I'm 2nd degree, go sit down. (One of the reasons, kids should not be in adult classes) There are too many precocious kids these days, a product of too much parental-endowed self esteem... think patience, patience, patience.

[Aegis]

On the other hand, nothing annoys me more than a lower rank telling me,
a black belt, unasked too, what he thinks is wrong with my kick. So I politely tell him what he thinks is wrong is probably not in the picture. And he says, well that's a nice story, but... At that point, I tell the KID that I'm 2nd degree, go sit down. (One of the reasons, kids should not be in adult classes) There are too many precocious kids these days, a product of too much parental-endowed self esteem... think patience, patience, patience.
What if there actually is something wrong with your technique? It's hardly unusual for lower grades to spot mistakes that you've grown so accustomed to making that you don't notice any more. You might be a 2nd degree, but your technique is not perfect. You should swallow your pride and be able to accept constructive criticism from any source and work on yourself to overcome the problem rather than putting down someone who spots what they think is an error.

[KenpoTess]

So true Aegis.. I have had white belt kids point things out to me that I wasn't aware of.. And I said.. "Oops.. thanks~!! They see things in a different light, a new light, and I just smiled and 'fixed' whatever it was.

On the other hand.. There's a type of personality that no matter what.. wears on the nerves, they always have to get the last word in, or always contradicting the instructor. Maybe they have an analytical mind and can't get a grasp 'around' what you're telling them. They are in the 'Know of' stage.. and they're not ready for the next stage, though they think they deserve all the answers up front. Now those type of students.. I just want to 'throttle' *Grin*
:D

[KenpoTess]

When we go out to a function as a group with the head of our organization, We sit according to rank. We have one member of our school who doesn't broach the topic with us, but we hear about it from others. He is an advanced orange belt who doesn't approve of the seating arrangements. He believes he should be at the head table too. *shrugs*
And if you read the above post by me, that's the same person I'm talking about. :(

[TigerWoman]

What if there actually is something wrong with your technique? It's hardly unusual for lower grades to spot mistakes that you've grown so accustomed to making that you don't notice any more. You might be a 2nd degree, but your technique is not perfect. You should swallow your pride and be able to accept constructive criticism from any source and work on yourself to overcome the problem rather than putting down someone who spots what they think is an error.

I guess you had to be there. Don't assume anything. There's humility and then there is humility. And you have to consider the source. There is constructive criticism and possibly destructive criticism. Didn't I say I politely listened to him until he got to be a bit much? Having a lower belt tell me something irrelevant and if taken could mess me up more would not have helped him nor me. I could have said sure, good point to NOT a good point? And then gone on with whatever I was doing? He couldn't have possibly understood my technique. He was 5 years behind me and had never done it let alone begin to understand the mechanics. He also didn't KNOW me and my physical problems.That is why I have a master instructor. This particular kid is a "know it all" and has a motor mouth. There is a rule in our school which has validity. A white belt does not tell a yellow belt how to do something on up the line. There is a reason for this. Because very likely BAD information is worse than none. That is why in Taekwondo, we wait until we are black belts, have passed a test of standards so we can teach correctly or since we are imperfect, to the best of our educated knowledge. I would never offer criticism/advice if I wasn't pretty sure it was good advice. I would NEVER offer criticism to a higher belt – only two in our school – unless asked. He or she has reached a level of understanding, who am I to say I know better. THAT would be pride and ignorance talking. I told him to sit down. He, like some other precocious teens, these days needs to learn humility.

[Aegis]

Information should go both ways. If you have to be a higher grade to correct something, there's never going to be much new information or ideas entering the system. In the style I do, if you spot something being done wrong, you help correct it. There's mutual respect between everyone on the mat, but even if someone suggests something stupid they get listened to and calmly told why that's not the way it's done.

The exact quote I had the trouble with was: "On the other hand, nothing annoys me more than a lower rank telling me, a black belt, unasked too, what he thinks is wrong with my kick". It made you sound as though you meant that no-one should dare question a black belt's technique. If that's not what you're really like I apologise, but it's the "no-one lower than me can have anything useful to add" mentality that leads to closed-mindedness in martial arts.

[TigerWoman]

[QUOTE=Aegis]Information should go both ways. If you have to be a higher grade to correct something, there's never going to be much new information or ideas entering the system. In the style I do, if you spot something being done wrong, you help correct it. There's mutual respect between everyone on the mat, but even if someone suggests something stupid they get listened to and calmly told why that's not the way it's done.

Apology accepted. "New information and ideas entering the system" of taekwondo do not come directly from lower belts. Or directly from black belts either for that matter if we are students in his school. When we have new ideas that are different from what has been taught, before it is introduced into the "system" it is brought to the attention of the master instructor - it is his school. There has to be a continuity of teaching.

A relatively new person, a student in Taekwondo does not dictate doctrine. I have seen changes but not by lower belts. One time a student in indonesian arts came in while he was an exchange student, but he had to adapt to our style. For ex: After catching my leg and making me fall on the mat (catching is a technique which in TKD we don't do) he was told not to by me and the master. Yes, there is an exchange of new information which results in change but it is between the master and the student.

A lower belt who has just learned a kick is probably not as proficient in it as a black belt. If a lower belt were to tell me my kick was a wheel kick instead of a snap, I would probably think about it and say you're right (or wrong) IF it was in his knowledge level. And that is what I did. But not if someone walked up to me and said a criticism that couldn't begin to be applied and wouldn't take a "no that is not in the picture" I calmly tell him to go "sit down". That's about respect too. No, as a colored belt, I would have never have been so arrogant to consider questioning a black belt's technique. And as I said before there is a reason for it. Colored belts don't teach. Colored belts CAN offer criticism/help to a lower belt if it is respectful. But I learned real fast when I was "helped" that the "information" wasn't reliable. Hence, that is why only black belts teach.

[Tony]

We are allowed to call our instructor by his first name but we do respect him. Its mainly for gradings we use his title of Sifu.

[white eagle]

The way I look @ is the belt rank that has been earned by a certain person places them in a structured hiearchy in a class
but take the class away and you have the option on how to treat the upper ranks everyone should be threated with some degree of respect but to carry out the class stucture into the outside world is totaly optional in my eyes

[Nightingale]

My TKD instructor at college insisted on strict protocol in class. Bowing, yes sir, no sir, etc...

That's fine in class. BUT, one day, I ran into him in the school cafeteria. I had my tray full with my dinner and soda. I smiled and said "Hello, sir."

He proceeded to lay into me for not bowing. Gimme a break. I run into an instructor out of class and out of uniform, juggling a tray full of food and drink, and he expected me to bow to him. RIGHT. SURE. WHATEVER.

The conclusion I drew from that experience (and the remainder of my time with that instructor) is that those who feel they must demand respect are generally incapable of earning it.

[Michael Billings]

In class, my students address me much more formally than outside. I am comfortable with this. Of course there are some that insist on the same formality outside of class, and it seems I cannot alter the paradigm that they were brought up under, so I allow it.

Respect should be earned, not expected. Granted, the belt itself and time in the art to obtain that belt deserve some respect, but you do not know how much until you have been on the mat, talked with the person, and have an idea of their values and/or abilities.

The only provisio to this is that I start with a basic respect for all individuals, until they prove me wrong, on and off the mat.

-Michael

[MichiganTKD]

In a situation like that, our Instructor would accept whatever you were capable of doing at the time. If you want to bow, that's fine. However, if it were physically difficult at the time he (or I) would accept a nod of the head. He would also likely extend his hand for a Western-style handshake.
Keep in mind, while he and I are strict traditionalists, you can't really expect students to demonstrate full TKD etiquitte like bowing in a public place, it is simply not appropriate.
When fellow judges or students and myself go to dinner after a testing or class, we do not bow to each other upon leaving the restaurant because it is not appropriate in a Western setting. We shake hands and go. We do properly address each other and stay within a certain amount of protocol. Sitting order is still determined by seniority.
I am curious as to whether any student has demonstrated a formal kneeling bow to their Instructor in public. While I would never do that or expect it to be done to me, there might be people who have.

[KenpoGirl]

The conclusion I drew from that experience (and the remainder of my time with that instructor) is that those who feel they must demand respect are generally incapable of earning it.A very astute statement Nightingale. I agree whole heartily.

You give the instructors you meet a certain amount of respect due to their accomplishments. ie their rank. But then, as does any other person you meet, have to earn your true respect by how they present themselves and how they treat others. Do they show respect to their students or think of them and underlings that are their for his/her benifit.

Respect is definitely an earned commodity, and if you are respected good things usually come your way. People that demand respect live a sad exsistance and are rarely treated the way they THINK they should be treated or are given it grudgenly and are then talked about behind their backs, damaging their reputation even further.

Just my two cents.

Dot
:asian:

[Bruce Banner]

hi mrs kenpogirl. how are you? i am fine. i think that a karate man should always listen to his master is all i am saying. i am learning through video and i want to be a real karate man so i will always listen to the master wehn i find one to teach me. no offense but a karate man should always be careful not to use his special moves when they could hurt someone and a master will tell you when that is if you know what i mean. i would use delayed sword if i was in danger or if my mom was in danger so i think i have a good idea what i am talking about already if you know what i mean. so wehn i find a master i will be ready is all i am saying.

your friend
Bruce

[Gentle Fist]

I respect my Master as a person foremost and then as a martial artist. Being a mentor is important not only in MA but in life. Everyone in a teaching position should always be loved and respected for their character over their skill in a given trade. There are plenty of Instructors that are average/below average Martial Artists but have great spirit and character. Then on the other end, there are great Martial Artists that have little character and are driven by the wrong motives. But I am sure each one of us on this board has met that Teacher/Instructor/Master that demonstrates both. It is always a great find.

Back on topic....

I never really thought of treating anyone different outside of the school, than I do just before and after class....All my fellow instructors are my friends and my training partners, and all of my students are my friends and training partners.