How A Real Man Fights

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

I know you all have heard it at one point or another. Somebody finds out about your martial arts training, they're larger, muscle-bound and untrained, they laugh and push you back and say "I bet you kick in a fight! You can't fight like a real man! You'll never be able to beat my muscle!" I've heard the phrase a lot lately and so I decided to see what MT had to say about such people.

Among the things that I've heard from people like that, I've heard that a real man will:

Never throw kicks
Only use fist punches
Only use his muscles
Never attack the eyes or groin
Never go to the ground
and so on and so forth.

Now granted, muscle WILL always beat everything else....in activities that involve muscle or weight, such as hardest strikes, weight lifting or something. And of course, no matter how technically skilled you are, you probably won't be able to beat Andre The Giant in hand to hand combat (unless you happen to be Wesley!), but that's just one variable. I just want to know what my fellow martial artists have to say about statements such as these.

[Bill Mattocks]

Statements like that are dependent upon mutual agreement about what a 'Real Man' happens to be. If two people agree that this is what a 'Real Man' should be and how a 'Real Man' should behave, then more power to them. It is no different than 'Marquess of Queensberry' rules regarding boxing. If one agrees to the rules, then that is how one ought to behave.

I feel no need to conform to what another person happens to believe about the status of my manliness. It is of no concern to me.

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

That makes Bill Mattocks the manliest of manly men!

[Haze]

I think real men fight more like this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

They kick because it comes natural, we did it in the womb.

They bite because we are manly meat eaters.

We strike to the groin and go to the ground because real men are not homophobic.

We strike to the eyes because it reminds us of the Three Stooges and we love a good laugh.

Open hand / slap because it takes me back to those days before racquetball when we played handball and now I found a reason for all those games I played

[Bill Mattocks]

That makes Bill Mattocks the manliest of manly men!

Thanks for the kind words, but I make no claim to being manly. In the immortal words of Popeye, the Sailor Man, "I yam what I yam." When I look in the mirror, I can find love in my heart for the man who looks back at me. That is sufficient to me for now; I am not dependent upon the respect of others so that I may respect myself.

[MJS]

I know you all have heard it at one point or another. Somebody finds out about your martial arts training, they're larger, muscle-bound and untrained, they laugh and push you back and say "I bet you kick in a fight! You can't fight like a real man! You'll never be able to beat my muscle!" I've heard the phrase a lot lately and so I decided to see what MT had to say about such people.

Among the things that I've heard from people like that, I've heard that a real man will:

Never throw kicks
Only use fist punches
Only use his muscles
Never attack the eyes or groin
Never go to the ground
and so on and so forth.

And this is probably the #1 reason why I hate to talk about martial arts or let anyone who would be likely to say stuff like this, to know that I train. Talking to them with any amount of seriousness, would be like trying to talk to a fly...just isn't gonna happen. So...usually when I get these types of comments, I just say, "Yup, you're probably right. You probably will kick my ass." From my experience with this, the people who say that stuff usually are not the type to actually try and attack me, thus, why I brush it off like I do. Now, if they were, well, that'd be different.


Now granted, muscle WILL always beat everything else....in activities that involve muscle or weight, such as hardest strikes, weight lifting or something. And of course, no matter how technically skilled you are, you probably won't be able to beat Andre The Giant in hand to hand combat (unless you happen to be Wesley!), but that's just one variable. I just want to know what my fellow martial artists have to say about statements such as these.

Yet we have grapplers like Royce, who fought and dominated guys much bigger than he was. Now, I'm not saying or hinting that I wanna roll around with the guy in my guard for 30min looking for an armbar, but my point was, that it is possible for the smaller man to win. I mean, if all it took was size and strength, then anyone who trains may as well stop and start injecting themselves with steroids. Besides, if I'm being attacked by someone that big, I'm going to grab the nearest weapon I can get my hands on, and use it. And if that is something someone frowns upon, so be it.

[just2kicku]

In my opinion, a real man, when driven to the point of fighting, fights to win. I think they should fight to destroy whoever their fighting. If it means kicks, going for the groin and eyes, then so be it.

[bluekey88]

Personally, when push comes to shove...I WANT to face that "real" man. He just told me what his weakness is....I'm kicking the bejeezus out of his groin and knees. :)

I'm sure he'll feel really good about himself as he ices down his ruptured groin and shattered knee that he got beat up by such an unmanly man as myself. :D

Peace,
Erik

[searcher]

A real man draws a gun and shoots the loudmouth that is going on about what a real man is.

Real men don't waist more than 5 pounds of pressure on anybody.

[Tez3]

I once had a man tell me that if I were a man he'd punch me, I told him if he was a man I'd let him try, then I'd have his balls for earrings.

[Omar B]

A real man's the one who wins the fight, no matter how your tech looks.

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

*dark villainous laughter*
A "real" man, huh? I think I would goad him just a little bit, see if he seriously wants to throw that first punch, whether his friends would back him up because obviously "real men" don't need any help, and see if he has a nearby girlfriend I can utterly embarrass him in front of...

Whip out some zip cuffs on him right as he hits the ground, make him cry like a little girl with some nasty deep joint pain, humiliate him with a good spanking, and press charges when the police arrive. All zipped up and ready for transport. At the very least make sure he spends a night in jail, you could drop charges in the morning... maybe, if he's lucky... someone in there will make a "real man" out of him... LMAO

...such insecurity in himself that he has to pick on someone with smaller arms.

[frank raud]

If I beat him, does that then make me a real man? Or does losing to a dirty fighter make him less of a real man? or does the whole arguement not make any sense?

There are two basics to fighting. If you are attacking, go alleycat mental until until there is nothing to attack. If you are defending, defend or avoid until you can attack/counter attack then follow previous advice.

[Sukerkin]

As far as I am concerned, one of the most important things to take away from any training in the martial arts is that 'real men/women' do not get into fights that they can avoid.

If you have no other option but to fight then finish it as quickly as you can by whatever means you need to in order not to end up in hospital or the morgue.

A 'fair fight'? Those happen in sport, not in the real world.

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Yet we have grapplers like Royce, who fought and dominated guys much bigger than he was. Now, I'm not saying or hinting that I wanna roll around with the guy in my guard for 30min looking for an armbar, but my point was, that it is possible for the smaller man to win. I mean, if all it took was size and strength, then anyone who trains may as well stop and start injecting themselves with steroids. Besides, if I'm being attacked by someone that big, I'm going to grab the nearest weapon I can get my hands on, and use it. And if that is something someone frowns upon, so be it.

That's why I gave the example of Andre the Giant, no matter how good of a grappler any of the Gracie family members are, they could never hope to beat him, simply because of his musculature. Fortunately, most people never run into a situation where there's someone with just TOO much muscle, so this is a rare situation.

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

That's why I gave the example of Andre the Giant, no matter how good of a grappler any of the Gracie family members are, they could never hope to beat him, simply because of his musculature. Fortunately, most people never run into a situation where there's someone with just TOO much muscle, so this is a rare situation.

But even then, if your technique is solid and they don't know the escapes (because again, obviously the "real men" in their argument don't need to train in order to fight, they instinctively pick out the one person around that could seriously hurt them with the least effort... and in the fashion of true stupidity, attack them)... you can always choke the big guys out just like our favorite Dread Pirate Roberts did with Fezzik, lol.

[K-man]

I know you all have heard it at one point or another. Somebody finds out about your martial arts training, they're larger, muscle-bound and untrained, they laugh and push you back and say "I bet you kick in a fight! You can't fight like a real man! You'll never be able to beat my muscle!" I've heard the phrase a lot lately and so I decided to see what MT had to say about such people.

Among the things that I've heard from people like that, I've heard that a real man will:

Never throw kicks
Only use fist punches
Only use his muscles
Never attack the eyes or groin
Never go to the ground
and so on and so forth.

Now granted, muscle WILL always beat everything else....in activities that involve muscle or weight, such as hardest strikes, weight lifting or something. And of course, no matter how technically skilled you are, you probably won't be able to beat Andre The Giant in hand to hand combat (unless you happen to be Wesley!), but that's just one variable. I just want to know what my fellow martial artists have to say about statements such as these.
Firstly, as has been already pointed out, a 'real man' will not be drawn into a fight, that can be avoided, to let some dork show how his muscles are big and strong and how he thinks he can defend himself against a Martial Artist. Apart from anything else, s#!t can happen and we don't want to get hurt unnecessarily.
Secondly, Martial Artists do play by the rules:
Rule 1. There are no rules.
Rule 2. When in doubt, refer to rule one.

So in the real world, kick the groin, rake the face and eyes, burst the ear drum, destroy a joint ... whatever it takes to escape the situation. Martial Arts are for our self defence, not to satisfy the curiousity of some muscle-bound moron. :asian:

[CoryKS]

Anytime you hear "A real man would never do _______ in a fight", what the speaker is really saying is, "I'm going to get my ass kicked if he does _______." It's a tactic to shame you into dropping an effective technique so that the outcome is more favorable to your opponent.

[Tez3]

Real men can walk down the street in mini skirts and drop anyone with minimum fuss who attacks them. They then pick up their clutch bags and walk off knowing that justice was done.

[sgtmac_46]

I know you all have heard it at one point or another. Somebody finds out about your martial arts training, they're larger, muscle-bound and untrained, they laugh and push you back and say "I bet you kick in a fight! You can't fight like a real man! You'll never be able to beat my muscle!" I've heard the phrase a lot lately and so I decided to see what MT had to say about such people.

Among the things that I've heard from people like that, I've heard that a real man will:

Never throw kicks
Only use fist punches
Only use his muscles
Never attack the eyes or groin
Never go to the ground
and so on and so forth.

Now granted, muscle WILL always beat everything else....in activities that involve muscle or weight, such as hardest strikes, weight lifting or something. And of course, no matter how technically skilled you are, you probably won't be able to beat Andre The Giant in hand to hand combat (unless you happen to be Wesley!), but that's just one variable. I just want to know what my fellow martial artists have to say about statements such as these.

Apparently a 'real man' is an insecure being who is untrained, knows it, and only wants to discuss physical conflict in terms of what he is comfortable with, and wishes to set pre-established rules and limits so that he has some semblance of an advantage..........a 'real man'........otherwise known as a BLOWHARD sissy!

He's the guy that gets his ass kicked time after time, and makes excuses that the other guy 'cheated' by doing something unmanly as NO ONE could ever best him if 'manly rules' were in play......:btg:

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Real men can walk down the street in mini skirts and drop anyone with minimum fuss who attacks them. They then pick up their clutch bags and walk off knowing that justice was done.

In my city, there is a man who walks his dog downtown every morning in nothing but a bathrobe and thong. Nobody messes with him.

[Bill Mattocks]

In my city, there is a man who walks his dog downtown every morning in nothing but a bathrobe and thong. Nobody messes with him.

Reminds me of Don Schrader, an Albuquerque fixture. Tanning, wearing a thong, drinking his own urine daily, and having sex with boys. He's got his own cable access TV show and stalks about downtown explaining it all to everyone. Nobody messes with him either, because...ew.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/06/don_schrader_a.html

[Tez3]

In my city, there is a man who walks his dog downtown every morning in nothing but a bathrobe and thong. Nobody messes with him.

Er thats not really quite what I mean lol! there's nothing wrong with the guys I'm talking about. though the title of this thread is way off course.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80848

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Well...nevertheless, I would never want to fight a guy in a thong period.

[TigerLove]

I think there is three thing that brings victory in a fight:

speed
good reflex
ability to predict your enemy moves

Size doesn't found here.

Yes, speed * mass = power of the kick, but that just mean that somebody with smaller hand (example) will deliver less power than someone with giant hand.

But that doesn't mean he won't hurt you with that less power.

Talking about my experience, i fighted more then ten times. School and street fights. Always with bigger guys. I never get beated. That was before i started martial arts.

Again, speed, good reflex, ability to predict your enemy moves. I think that's it.

Maybe to add that anyway, for bigger guys it's more easy to fight then to us (smaller). Smaller guy must have much more abilityes to win the fight with bigger guy.

Also, matters which size we are talkin' about. All i wroted works if you are goin' to face somebody bigger then you. But, if you going to face a guy which is REALLY bigger than you, whose forearm is bigger then your quadriceps, then or run or get some weapon. Or hope you will be sucess in striking his throat.

[MJS]

That's why I gave the example of Andre the Giant, no matter how good of a grappler any of the Gracie family members are, they could never hope to beat him, simply because of his musculature. Fortunately, most people never run into a situation where there's someone with just TOO much muscle, so this is a rare situation.

I'm sorry...maybe I'm misunderstanding here. Are you saying that they wouldn't be able to beat someone like that because it would require them to roll around for 30min...something that we dont want to do in a street fight or they wouldnt be able to beat him period, even if it were in a controlled setting?

I do agree though...a man that size is, IMHO, the exception, the extreme exception to the rule. LOL. Thats why I said that if faced with someone like that, if running was out of the question, I'd grab and use the nearest weapon that I could get my hands on.

[Andy Moynihan]

A "real man" only cares about surviving because he is no good to his friends/his allies/ his family/ his cat/ anyone depending on him if he is dead.

[Rich Parsons]

I know you all have heard it at one point or another. Somebody finds out about your martial arts training, they're larger, muscle-bound and untrained, they laugh and push you back and say "I bet you kick in a fight! You can't fight like a real man! You'll never be able to beat my muscle!" I've heard the phrase a lot lately and so I decided to see what MT had to say about such people.

Among the things that I've heard from people like that, I've heard that a real man will:

Never throw kicks
Only use fist punches
Only use his muscles
Never attack the eyes or groin
Never go to the ground
and so on and so forth.

Now granted, muscle WILL always beat everything else....in activities that involve muscle or weight, such as hardest strikes, weight lifting or something. And of course, no matter how technically skilled you are, you probably won't be able to beat Andre The Giant in hand to hand combat (unless you happen to be Wesley!), but that's just one variable. I just want to know what my fellow martial artists have to say about statements such as these.


I like the following quote from Firefly the TV Series:
Jayne: "I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight. Or if he bothers me. Or if there's a woman. Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly when I'm gettin' paid."


Real Man is like saying Average Man or some other term that as previously mentioned needs to be clarified and defined.

I prefer to think of myself as an Abnormal Man or on some days a Superior Man. But that is for a discussion over a beer. ;)

[James Kovacich]

That's why I gave the example of Andre the Giant, no matter how good of a grappler any of the Gracie family members are, they could never hope to beat him, simply because of his musculature. Fortunately, most people never run into a situation where there's someone with just TOO much muscle, so this is a rare situation.

Andre was huge but not muscular huge. As we say sometimes, theres always someone badder around the corner.

Any giant could be chopped down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZeI3w5Ed6A

Size can be a determining factor but it isn't the rule, at least with anyone I know. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Omar B]

What I always find is that a little knowledge in the hands of the regular jerk really works to their detriment. I get statments like "Your in Kyokushin so you can't punch me in the face/groin/sweep if I were going to attack you." What they don't realize is they are mixing up tournament fighting with street fighting. I would never fight dirty against a fellow karateka be it Kyokushin, Seido or some other style. Some random guy saying stuff like this, the first thing I would do is hit him in the face, then the groin, then whatever soft targets I can get to with the same force I would use to break a brick (and considerably more force than I would ever use against an honorable competitor). Heck, I don't think I would even make a fist, I much prefer palm heel and knife hand and spear hand in a self defense/street fight situation ... cuz it's fun to say, "Look at you bleeding and I didn't even make a fist."

They seem to think we only learn things having to do with tournament rules because MT and Boxing are sports based they must think it carries over. Kicks and punches are the mere tip of the iceberg when it comes to karate.

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

Firstly, as has been already pointed out, a 'real man' will not be drawn into a fight, that can be avoided, to let some dork show how his muscles are big and strong and how he thinks he can defend himself against a Martial Artist. Apart from anything else, s#!t can happen and we don't want to get hurt unnecessarily.
Secondly, Martial Artists do play by the rules:
Rule 1. There are no rules.
Rule 2. When in doubt, refer to rule one.

So in the real world, kick the groin, rake the face and eyes, burst the ear drum, destroy a joint ... whatever it takes to escape the situation. Martial Arts are for our self defence, not to satisfy the curiousity of some muscle-bound moron. :asian:

Well, there is one more rule... Remember, you are the good guy. It makes it too difficult after the fact if you go to excessive force... Granted, it would be poetic justice in a way for the guy starting the fight to be in the worst possible shape afterwards, but... it doesn't look good in court, if you know what I mean. I don't wanna get taken away by the cops for winning the fight, lol.

But if he's got some friends that jump in... oh yeah. Any means necessary. Free military techniques, come get yours! *Snap* *Crackle* *Pop*

[Cirdan]

I don`t know who these "real men" are, all I want to do is to get home in one piece. Oh and I`ll tear your throat out with my teeth using the strength of my last drop of blood if you try to stop me from doing that. Peace.

[Milt G.]

In my opinion, a real man, when driven to the point of fighting, fights to win. I think they should fight to destroy whoever their fighting. If it means kicks, going for the groin and eyes, then so be it.

Hello,
I fully agree...

Thank you,
Milt G.

[Milt G.]

I once had a man tell me that if I were a man he'd punch me, I told him if he was a man I'd let him try, then I'd have his balls for earrings.

Ouch...!

:)

Thanks,
Milt G.

[still learning]

Hello, How a real Man fights?

First he is always a Gentleman, a father figure, a brother and friend...
Humble,Kind and gentle...

Has a "killer instinct about them...Very little fears!

Know the Power of the human langauges....Simple talks his way out of most situtions and learn awareness, avoidness

A real man will step up to protect those of weaker weakness...and will do what one needs to help others and himself...peacefully first...

Win or lose...a Real man can take it!

Aloha, ...still learning to be a better Man...

Read: Hand book to Higher Consciousness by Ken Keyes, Jr....

PS: Man enough to be act like a Man! ...easy to be a monkey and fight!

[celtic_crippler]

Are we talking "fight" as in a competition or we talking "fight" as out in the street?

In competition, one that has character and a sense of honor fights within the set rules.

On the street you better fight to survive, regardless.

Because on the street there is no set rules and no referree or bell to save your butt. It's either you or them and any personal rules or parameters you choose for yourself will impact the outcome of the confrontation.

The only rule I choose to have is that I do whatever's necessary to be the one that walks away in one piece. Whether my opponent thinks that's "manly" or not makes no difference to me.

[DeLamar.J]

Trying to deal with (real men) is like plucking weeds. Pluck one out and five more pop up to take it's place. The best thing to do is to make a joke out of the conversation, and try to change the topic.

[blindsage]

So, basically these fools are saying to you the only thing that 'should' matter in a fight is how hard you can hit, based on muscle, and how much punishment you can take. Sounds like 'real men' are defined as muscle bound bullies that only like to fight when they can use their muscles to pound out their anger issues on somebody smaller than them. 'Real men' gotta love 'em.

[Deaf Smith]

How real men fight?

Would you consider the men of Sparta to be real men back in the age of Marathon and Thermopylae? You know, King Leonidas I, the 300, and all that.

Well the Spartans boycotted the Olympics cause they didn't allow eye gouging!

And that's how real men fight. They fight to win.

"Ē tan ē epi tas" .. that means "bring back your shield or be on it."

Deaf

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Well, this is an interesting little thread here... If I may, I would like to add a note or two.

To begin with, the concept of a "real man" needs clarification. The OP has an instance where a non-martial artist makes the claim that "real men (essentially) don't need martial arts", and to use such lowers the man's masculinity. For the record, I also see such misuse of the term Alpha Male in place of Real Man in this context. The people making these claims are not aware of what a Real Man actually is, instead attempting to imitate what they believe it to be (for various reasons), becoming "false" Men, or "false" Alpha Males. So let's look at what a Real Man (or Alpha Male) really is.

A true Alpha Male is driven, they know what they are after, and are willing to go after it or seek it out. He is generous to those around him, by caring for them and protecting them, even in ways that are not immediately recognised as generous (the way a caring parent will ground or scold a child, as well as protect and provide for them). He is confident and deliberate, even in his acceptance of any lack he has. He is congruent at all times. They are also internally validated, needing none from any external source.

There's obviously more, but this is a good list to start with.

When it comes to violence, an Alpha Male does what he needs to do. He doesn't necessarily seek it out, but he doesn't avoid it either. He is confident in his ability to handle such aspects of life. And in that we find how a Real Man fights. He fights when he needs to, how he needs to. He embraces the idea that violence is a part of his life, and one that he needs to be able to handle.

The most important thing in regard to a Real Man and violence is that he does actually seek to understand and deal with it, rather than hiding from it, and that involves in many cases taking up martial arts, joining the army, or some other variant. So the entire premise in the OP's story is based on a lack of understanding of a Real Man.

What an Alpha Man is not, though, is what we see in the OP. That is an example of a scared false Alpha, trying to control something that is outside of their sphere of control. They are also attempting to appear stronger than they are, which is an attempt to be externally validated.

There are a number of reasons for these false Men being prominent, including a lack of positive male role models in modern society, but the main thing to recognise is just that most guys around are simply not "real men", they are just playing at being one. It is a show of false bravado, but the danger is when they get put in a position where they feel they have to "back up" such thoughts and words. Then they can be dangerous.

[still learning]

Hello, Some of us do like to order "Man" size sandwich....
it doesn't make us a man...just act like one...

two man size burgers "please" ....oh too Go!

Aloha, UM!

PS: ...need help? ...looking for a" bigger".. Man size sandwich? ....can you help?

Also...Real man stands up at the restrooms ...not sure of smaller man?

[chinto]

I know you all have heard it at one point or another. Somebody finds out about your martial arts training, they're larger, muscle-bound and untrained, they laugh and push you back and say "I bet you kick in a fight! You can't fight like a real man! You'll never be able to beat my muscle!" I've heard the phrase a lot lately and so I decided to see what MT had to say about such people.

Among the things that I've heard from people like that, I've heard that a real man will:

Never throw kicks
Only use fist punches
Only use his muscles
Never attack the eyes or groin
Never go to the ground
and so on and so forth.

Now granted, muscle WILL always beat everything else....in activities that involve muscle or weight, such as hardest strikes, weight lifting or something. And of course, no matter how technically skilled you are, you probably won't be able to beat Andre The Giant in hand to hand combat (unless you happen to be Wesley!), but that's just one variable. I just want to know what my fellow martial artists have to say about statements such as these.


LOL!!! IF I have to fight its not for fun!!!! IF you FIGHT YOU MAY DIE! so there are NO rules but survival!!

[Touch Of Death]

I'm a real man that fights like a sissy.(scorned!)
Sean

[Kwan Jang]

When I went to my 20 year high school reunion a few years back, I ran into basically the same thing. The funny thing is, I'm a former champion strength athlete and the "muscle bound guy". The normal questions about people's careers, ect. were going on and it came up that I own and operate a martial arts school and do tactical training. This guy who I probably outweighed by 100 lbs. of solid muscle was asking "do ya think you could take me" and made "that stuff won't work on a real man"-type comments. I tried playing it off, but he actually kept on with the "what would you do if I did this" type of stuff. I told him that I bench close to 600 and squat over 800 and would laugh when he broke his hand hitting me and then sue him for assault. I'd like to have a second house back in San Jose and I hoped he'd been successful enough since High school to make the law suit worth my while.

A fun TV show for me is BULLY BEATDOWN on MTV. In truth it's not really a great show, but the concept is fun. They pay local bullies/bad___- to fight a MMA fighter $10 grand in the cage. The fights are two, three minute rounds with one being submission grappling and one being kickboxing. Every time the bully taps out, one grand goes to the victim. In the second round, if the bully lasts the round, he keeps $5 grand, if he doesn't the victim gets it. These "real men" often believe they can hang with or beat a trained fighter because "that stuff don't work" and they are "undefeated street fighters". The resulting lessons in humility are quite a blast. IMO, this should be required programming for this type of idiot.

[James Kovacich]

I've haven't see a bully "give" a beat down on that show. The "streetfighters" were pretty sad compared to what they thought they actually were.

[Andy Moynihan]

I've haven't see a bully "give" a beat down on that show. The "streetfighters" were pretty sad compared to what they thought they actually were.


Most "Streetfighters" are.

[sadantkd]

Andre was huge but not muscular huge. As we say sometimes, theres always someone badder around the corner.

Any giant could be chopped down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZeI3w5Ed6A

Size can be a determining factor but it isn't the rule, at least with anyone I know. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

I've seen completely untrained school kids with better technique than either of those guys used. That was truly pathetic.

[The Destroyer Style]

If a person says something like this to you. It is obvious they have never fought for their lives in a real life or death situation. The only time you should fight is in a life or death situation. In wich case technique and speed are more important then strength or muscle. In fact your muscle can restrict your body from making certain movements. This not only hinders you in a fight, but in real life as well. Don't let their talk get you down. They speak of their own strength because they don't know true strength.



Cody

[Kwan Jang]

Oh great, the ignorant "muscle will slow you down and hinder your movement"-myth rears it's ugly head. While technique makes the most of your physical capacity, having lean muscle is a major part of what that capacity is. Also, basic physiology is that a larger muscle (on the same person) is a stronger muscle and a stronger muscle contracts faster than a weaker one. It should be noted that while everyone should stretch, as long as you develop your muscle along the body's natural proportions and strength curve, it should make you more flexible, not less.

If some martial artists would study ex. phys. a bit more and pass around old wives tales a bit less, maybe this myth would finally die the death it so richly deserves. If you won't take the time to read any actual research on the subject, I'll post a quick vid as a case study for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLYnt3aijU0

[Draven]

IAmong the things that I've heard from people like that, I've heard that a real man will:

Never throw kicks
Only use fist punches
Only use his muscles
Never attack the eyes or groin
Never go to the ground
and so on and so forth.

Thats all BS they tell you to keep you fighting without any real skill or intent. Nothing that displays you have a skill they don't and limits your abilioty to win. If someone were to tell me that, I'd simply smile and tell them I'm from the John Wayne school of fighting. Real men shoot first & talk **** later...

[geezer]

Oh great, the ignorant "muscle will slow you down and hinder your movement"-myth ...

Hey Kwang, I'm dealing with this issue right now. I'm a Wing Chunner and over the years I've been repeatedly warned against lifting weights. Various instructors from my old Chinese sifu, to my current instructor who keeps up on modern research into kinesiology and training techniques, have told me to lay-off the weights. They all say that heavy weights lead to heavy muscles and a massive quality that interferes with the kind of "sensitivity" and light, quick upper-body movement required for good Chi-Sau.

Now I watched your video and have seen other martial artists (Van Damme comes to mind) who were heavily muscled, yet fast, stretched and even acrobatic... at least with their lower body. On the other hand, Chi-Sau requires a great deal or upper body flexibility, range of movement, and a very light touch. I have to say that as I've built up my arms and shoulders, I have fallen behind my peers in the ability to quickly sense and redirect my energy. It's a very subtle art and in spite of many years of experience, my heavy arms seem to be holding me back. We are discussing this right now down on the Wing Chun forum if you'd like to weigh in on the topic.

Now to get back on topic. How real men fight? That's dueling. A contest of honor based on rules, and etiquette... I don't duel. If I fight it's because I don't have a choice. That's self defense. And as others have already said, when you are fighting to defend yourself and your loved ones only one thing matters-- winning.

[still learning]

Hey Kwang, I'm dealing with this issue right now. I'm a Wing Chunner and over the years I've been repeatedly warned against lifting weights. Various instructors from my old Chinese sifu, to my current instructor who keeps up on modern research into kinesiology and training techniques, have told me to lay-off the weights. They all say that heavy weights lead to heavy muscles and a massive quality that interferes with the kind of "sensitivity" and light, quick upper-body movement required for good Chi-Sau.

Now I watched your video and have seen other martial artists (Van Damme comes to mind) who were heavily muscled, yet fast, stretched and even acrobatic... at least with their lower body. On the other hand, Chi-Sau requires a great deal or upper body flexibility, range of movement, and a very light touch. I have to say that as I've built up my arms and shoulders, I have fallen behind my peers in the ability to quickly sense and redirect my energy. It's a very subtle art and in spite of many years of experience, my heavy arms seem to be holding me back. We are discussing this right now down on the Wing Chun forum if you'd like to weigh in on the topic.

Now to get back on topic. How real men fight? That's dueling. A contest of honor based on rules, and etiquette... I don't duel. If I fight it's because I don't have a choice. That's self defense. And as others have already said, when you are fighting to defend yourself and your loved ones only one thing matters-- winning.

Hello, Bruce Lee believe in lifting weights ....many methods.
Not to be confuse with muscle building...

Aloha,

[Omar B]

It's a myth. Muscle does not hinder movement or flexibility at all.

[Kwan Jang]

Geezer, I have been doing sticky hands for about 27 years and my muscle mass has never hindered me at all towards sensetivity and only enhanced my speed and agility including upper body and hand speed. I am also a (lower level) guro in the FMA's and have used similar drills for decades. I also include sticky and push hand drills to teach sensetivity not only for trapping, but also for entering in submission grappling. In grappling, your sensetivity to your opponents movements are more of a full body action than in trapping, but it's a good starting point.

Think of this, is Brock Lesnar (who carries a similar amount of muscle mass to me) less sensetive to the movements of his opponents than WC'ers like your sifu? Is he slow or less explosive? Actually, I am not a fan of Lesnar's (far from it), but giving the devil his due, he is very explosive and he is a master at controlling positioning. This takes an extreme level of whole body sensetivity and that is one of the legitimate skills he brings to the octagon.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I know you all have heard it at one point or another. Somebody finds out about your martial arts training, they're larger, muscle-bound and untrained, they laugh and push you back and say "I bet you kick in a fight! You can't fight like a real man! You'll never be able to beat my muscle!" I've heard the phrase a lot lately and so I decided to see what MT had to say about such people.

Among the things that I've heard from people like that, I've heard that a real man will:

Never throw kicks
Only use fist punches
Only use his muscles
Never attack the eyes or groin
Never go to the ground
and so on and so forth.

Now granted, muscle WILL always beat everything else....in activities that involve muscle or weight, such as hardest strikes, weight lifting or something. And of course, no matter how technically skilled you are, you probably won't be able to beat Andre The Giant in hand to hand combat (unless you happen to be Wesley!), but that's just one variable. I just want to know what my fellow martial artists have to say about statements such as these.

Then by that Aholes reasoning he should never fight anyone smaller than him.

My Old man had some sayings "Never shoot a man in the face you can shoot in the back of the head." "Their is no cheating in a fight, screww someone else's opinon of what is honorable. If you are fighting than obviously being cival and diplomatic did not work or you had no chance to and no choice."

[LuckyKBoxer]

Isn't Andre dead? I think I could beat a dead man...

In regards to the other stuff.. I consider a real man a man who understands his own moral values, is a man of honor, and has priorities and places thos epriorities in the correct order and will do anything to protect his values and priorities.

What does that group of bullcrap actually mean?

Well if its involving a fight a real man will do what it takes to win... by his own moral values and code of honor... within whatever rules he agreed to prior or not..

If he has a family or other responsibilities then himself he will place those above his ego, and might leave a confrontation, or lose a confrontation to protect his priorities...

I try to be a real man in my dealings with others, but often times find my pride and my love of fighting to conflict with my own priorities of my family above all else... thats the hardest part for me... fighting is easy... fighting with or without rules is easy... not fighting, or leaving a possible fight so there is no trouble or consequences for my family or friends is often the hardest part..

[Draven]

If a person says something like this to you. It is obvious they have never fought for their lives in a real life or death situation. The only time you should fight is in a life or death situation. In wich case technique and speed are more important then strength or muscle. In fact your muscle can restrict your body from making certain movements. This not only hinders you in a fight, but in real life as well. Don't let their talk get you down. They speak of their own strength because they don't know true strength.



Cody

Thats only true in the case of over training one muscle group and under training another. Balanced muscle building exercise don't cause limited physical movement issues and it never really slows anyone down.

[The Destroyer Style]

See, this is how rumors get started, I never said it would slow you down. I said it would hender movement. Haha, you mis interpretations of my terminology is really un needed. It henders motion, which means you cannot twist or move a body part in a certain way. You spoke, before you thought. Its cool though, I know I didn't really elaborate. I was speaking of having huge body parts, that would restrict motion.


Cody

[The Destroyer Style]

I can prove my point easily, to anyone who has ever boxed. Ever notice, when you are standing with your hands up. You can't make your elbows touch. Muscle expanditure, is what is restricting that. You can stretch and get around it however. It will just take a while. Who ever thinks they can gain muscle mass and keep flexability is wrong. The only would be to stretch, as much as you lift. Even then huge body parts, like bicepts will not turn, as quickly. I highly doubt anyone arguing this point against me has huge bicepts. Thats why their opinion, is impracticle to me. Gain strength not bulk.

[Kwan Jang]

I have well over 30" thighs (lean enough to see striations) and over 20" arms. I have posted a video showing me doing full splits and vertical kicks. So there goes your unfounded theory down the drain. As long as you keep your muscle mass in proper balance and proportion along the natural strength curve of the body (as Draven already pointed out), there is no reason that having greater muscle mass will hinder your range of motion. In fact, if you train your resistance exercises along a full range of motion (as the vast majority of experts recommend), it should actually enhance your range of motion as well as prevent many of the strength imbalances that restrict range of motion that someone who doesn't strength train will have.

I know that this is geting away from the original topic, but I feel it's an irony that the counter bias is being shown here. The original topic was about the insecurity that some show towards martial artists and how they will criticize out of that insecurity. This drift in the thread has centered on how some martial artists will make false statements about strength training to cover their own insecurities and shortcomings. Whether the source of their false premise is a "hand-me-down myth" or not.

[The Destroyer Style]

Like I wrote you dude if you don't (stretch) you will lose motion.

[The Destroyer Style]

Here is a question. How many fighting styles are you in? If haven't beem in a wide range, then how do you know that size doesn't affect other fighters?

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Fistly, you don't need to double post so many times. Secondly, he's not talking about any kind of specific fighting style, he's saying that proper exercise will not hinder movement in any way. Not that "doing x-kind of exercise helps karateka and doing y-kind helps aikidoka." He's simply stating the way the human body works and how to acquire a full range of motion while mainting lean muscle. Stop patronizing people around you when you clearly aren't understanding the message.

[The Destroyer Style]

Chill out man, I am just messin with dude cause he is so arrogant. I really do have proof to back up what I'm saying. It won't slow you down, but
the larger a muscle is the more it will restrict the distance two bones can reach, he is arguing with what should be common sense. You cannot bring your ulna and radius as close to your humerus with 18 inch biceps as you could with 12, the biceps will block the full movement, it's something mainly only professional bodybuilders should be concerned with but it still is a fact. Even with stretching it still henders movement. Simply because the mass is larger.

Sorry for messin with you dude. You just made an easy target.

Cody

[Kwan Jang]

Thank you Shinobi. I will make one last reply on this. He has also been PM-ing me several times and so far I feel I have been quite patient and have honestly tried to educate him on the facts of the matter. I will try one more time and after this, I'm done as the tone is getting less friendly.

As I awnsered you in the PM, anyone who does not work at building and maintaining their stretch will lose it. However, someone using proper resistance training through a full range of motion will actually promote greater flexibility than someone who does not weight train provided both are not participating in a stretching routine. In addition, the strength athlete (if properly trained) will not have the issues with strength imbalances that reduce range of motion that a non-strength athlete (including the vast majority of martial artists) suffer from. As I mentioned to you in my reply to your PM, I have a degree in Ex. Phys. (also one in Political Science, but that is a moot point) so I have done a fair amount of actual research on the subject.

As far as attacking/questioning my martial arts background, if you must have a bit of my resume, so be it. I have been training almost non-stop since Aug. 1971. My father used to be in the Special Forces and was very receptive to my beginning the arts at a young age. I teach MMA, TKD, Muay Thai, Submission Grappling (primarily BJJ, but some Judo and Sambo added) and Escrima. I have earned master's ranks in TKD and Hapkido in addition to dan rankings in American Kenpo, Judo and Jujitsu. I am also a certified tactical master (CDT) and have a teaching certificate in Tai chi (though in truth, my wife teaches that and I have let that one slip).

I am one of the highest ranking students of KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr. and KJN Tony Thompson and also trained under their instructor GM Dan Kyu Choi (9th dan TKD & Hapkido) before he retired. I have also trained extensively with champions and masters including Mike Inay and Jeff Elliott (Inayan Escrima) Jimmy Tacosa (Cabales Serrada Escrima), Benny Urquidez (American Kickboxing), Alex Gong, Woodman, Dr. Knees and the rest at Fairtex (Muay Thai), Mike Swain (Judo),and John Sepulveda and Jeff Speakman (American Kenpo). Frank Shamrock (5x UFC champion and former Strikeforce champion) and Bob Cook (head MMA trainer at AKA who coaches Koscheck, Fitch, Velaquez, Quarry and other UFC headliners) are my primary MMA and Submission Grappling coaches for the last decade. These are not just people I have done seminars with, but people I have had long, ongoing training relationships with over the years (though I am not training with all currently and sadly, some are no longer with us). I have also trained pretty extensively with the likes of Ralf and Cesar Gracie (BJJ) as well as got some refinement from BJ Penn. I have worked with GM Wally Jay and quite a bit with his son and succesor Leon Jay (SCJJ) and Will Higginbotham (Ryukyu kempo jitsu). I have also trained in the Chinese MA's with people like Dennis Brown, Anthony Chan and John Chuk, though most of that was several years ago.

This is not even counting the people whose seminars I have attended over the years. I have also done quite well in competition on the state, national and even international levels for what that's worth. I am planning to compete in the seniors division at either the US Open or NAGA's in submission grappling in 2010 if my knee holds out. My primary instructors always encouraged (i.e. forced) their students (especially the master-level ones) to continue growing and to learn as much as we can and bring back "home" what we thought was useful. Their goal was for us to be versatile enough that any of our black belts could go into ANY system and be on level with their people in their own system. If you want to compare your resume, feel free.

Regardless, what you do is your own business. If you want to stick your head in the sand, so be it. It will just help me (and my students) stay that much further ahead of you. If you ever DO decide to actually do the research rather than just listen to old wives tales, I don't mind steering you in the right direction.

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

Jordan fades back... he shoots! ... And that's the game!
Getting back to topic:
:rtfm: RTFM

It seems like the general consensus here is that:
-A really "real man" will do whatever is necessary to end the fight.
-A really "real man" is not so insecure with himself that he has to go around picking fights with smaller people.
-Some really "real men" "can walk down the street in mini skirts and drop anyone with minimum fuss who attacks them."-Tez3 :lol: Golden!
-Many who claim to be "real men" never had good father figure role models and REALLY have no idea what the hell they're talking about when they go out picking fights.
-Etcetera.

Does that about sum it up?

So, any new thoughts on the topic?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thanks for the kind words, but I make no claim to being manly. In the immortal words of Popeye, the Sailor Man, "I yam what I yam." When I look in the mirror, I can find love in my heart for the man who looks back at me. That is sufficient to me for now; I am not dependent upon the respect of others so that I may respect myself.
Well that begs the question: can you squeeze spinnach out of the can and eat it through a pipe?:p

Daniel

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I like the following quote from Firefly the TV Series:
Jayne: "I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight. Or if he bothers me. Or if there's a woman. Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly when I'm gettin' paid."



Ahhh, the wisdom of Jayne. He was always my favorite character!

[Jenny_in_Chico]

For the record, I also see such misuse of the term Alpha Male in place of Real Man in this context. The people making these claims are not aware of what a Real Man actually is, instead attempting to imitate what they believe it to be (for various reasons), becoming "false" Men, or "false" Alpha Males. So let's look at what a Real Man (or Alpha Male) really is.

A true Alpha Male is driven, they know what they are after, and are willing to go after it or seek it out. He is generous to those around him, by caring for them and protecting them, even in ways that are not immediately recognised as generous (the way a caring parent will ground or scold a child, as well as protect and provide for them). He is confident and deliberate, even in his acceptance of any lack he has. He is congruent at all times. They are also internally validated, needing none from any external source.



That is an excellent definition of alpha male, especially the portions that I bolded. If I made a list of the most attractive qualities a male could possess, these would be at the top. There is a world of difference between masculine confidence and ridiculous posturing, and a discerning woman will always be able to discriminate between the two.

[Bruno@MT]

A real man can fight in a pink gi and still be taken seriously.
Gene Lebell, Judo legend

http://thejudopodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/sensei-genemedium.jpg
http://www.crawfordsmma.com/sites/site-227/images/6ec25648-7f00-0001-3056-bfc7be7b2411.jpg

[Chris Parker]

That is an excellent definition of alpha male, especially the portions that I bolded. If I made a list of the most attractive qualities a male could possess, these would be at the top. There is a world of difference between masculine confidence and ridiculous posturing, and a discerning woman will always be able to discriminate between the two.


And a true man can always tell a woman of quality as well.

[Jenny_in_Chico]

And a true man can always tell a woman of quality as well.

Uh oh. ;)

[Touch Of Death]

It's a myth. Muscle does not hinder movement or flexibility at all.
Thats not true, if you don't train with full muscle motion you will not execute full muscle motion.
Sean

[Omar B]

Thats not true, if you don't train with full muscle motion you will not execute full muscle motion.
Sean

So you are assuming a marital artist (regardless of style) would train with less than full range of motion? Do sprinters train for half speed too?

[Touch Of Death]

So you are assuming a marital artist (regardless of style) would train with less than full range of motion? Do sprinters train for half speed too?Not assuming; some do; some don't. And, I don't know I'm not a sprinter.
Sean

[Kwan Jang]

I don't want to get back into this one, but I will comment that anyone not training in a full range of motion will have that problem, it's not really related to the muscle mass you have. Also, ANY type of training that you do can be counter productive if you do it incorrectly. I can't see any system of martial arts working well if the primary (flawed) strategy of the practitioner is to purposely block with their groin and face. By knocking weight training for what some people do incorrectly is following the same logic IMO.

One other point, regardless of how much muscle growth that occurs, the origin and insertion of the muscle is unchanged. There are tons of bodybuilders who wished they could change the length of (for example) their biceps an especially their calves. Increasing the lean muscle mass can give the illusion that their is less space, but the muscle bellies length is still the same regardless of the amount of training you do or how much muscle mass you have. There are rare cases of people like Sergio Oliva (3x Mr. Olympia back in the '60's) whose bicep was so laong that is did interefere with his range of motion and he could not fully curl his arm up. However, this was genetic and was not a result of his training or muscle mass. He was NEVER able to do this, including before he took up weight training.

Once again, this thread is about how non-martial artists will try to put down and limit martial artsits due to their own insecurities, but it has also revealed how some in the arts (whether it's the people posting or the people that they have gotten their flawed info from) have the same insecurities and biases. I myself believed many of those myths when I was young and was told to avoid free weights by Benny Urquidez (who was one of my heroes when I was a teen) because free weights would add "useless bulk" and "shorten your reach". I wanted to be a world kickboxing champion and whatever Benny said was like the gospel to me. I later actually researched these things and found out that I had been steered in the wrong direction , though I know at the time Benny meant well. What was funny was over a decade later, I read an article in IRON MAN magazine by Benny Urquidez on how weight training was one of the best tools available to a fighter/martial artist. At least Benny learned the lesson himself, though if he had learned it earlier, I probably would have began serios lifting 3-4 years earlier.

[Omar B]

Not assuming; some do; some don't. And, I don't know I'm not a sprinter.
Sean

Well what you said it an absurd assumption reguarding muscle size and flexibility in relation to martial arts or any sport. I suggest you do some reading on the topic. Then couching your lack of understanding in the fact that you are "not a sprinter" is even more absurd, after all their aims in relation to range of motion and power are just about the same as ours.

[Touch Of Death]

Well what you said it an absurd assumption reguarding muscle size and flexibility in relation to martial arts or any sport. I suggest you do some reading on the topic. Then couching your lack of understanding in the fact that you are "not a sprinter" is even more absurd, after all their aims in relation to range of motion and power are just about the same as ours.Aren't you assuming all martial arts follow your way of thinking? And that all teachers are good enough to teach this concept?
Sean

[Omar B]

If you are learning from a teacher that does not have you make use of the full range of motion of your limbs you should leave. In fact, I don't think he would get further than white belt himself.

It's not an assumption, a teacher not knowing simple things about anatomy or movement probably has never himself taken a martial arts class ... or would end up with joint and muscle rending injuries.

[Steve Grody]

As some others have stated, it may be a good idea when amongst a group of dude/knuckleheads, to not say anything about knowing anything martial. The whole "fight like a real man" idea seems to me to be about consensual fights and the unstated rules that go with that. If someone's primary concern is actual defense against unwanted physical threats from some dude/knucklehead, then it's back to "whatever I have do to walk away." I tell my students in their late teens to 30s in particular that they should be discrete as to who the tell they are training, because too many dimbulbs believe that anyone doing martial training think they have magically become untouchable (which of course we don't), and therefore should be able to defend against surprise attacks from their friends. Anyone that has "friends" like these should explain that a) anyone can be suckerpunched, b) that to just defend may be more difficult than just stop-hitting the crap out of someone, and finally and very importantly c) that such jackass attacks may cause you to hold back in a future scenario when you shouldn't but do because you think you may be being grabbed by a friend.

stevegrody.com (http://stevegrody.com)

[Em MacIntosh]

Expressions are often meaningless once they're analyzed. Your flesh and blood exists so I'd put my money on the person being real. Real can mean many things, like honesty. Knowing what's real means you understand when you're in danger and how fragile the human body is...even if you have dense bones and are musclebound, your head can still crack relatively easy if bounced off the pavement (five or six times?).
An understanding of how much pain you can feel before you pass out is an individual thing but is really eye opening. That's something that will have someone drop their ego-derived impressions and be serious about it...agony. I've never had the "real men do this..." conversation but any time I mention martial arts all the tough guys come out of the woodwork with their opinions that make me regret bringing the subject up.

[Guardian]

Been gone for awhile. Real men will avoid a fight if possible, but that is not always possible, so if push comes to shove, then it's fight to win at all cost, anything and everything goes pure and simple.

Personally, I never talk about what I know except on places like this where it's meant to be talked about or with my close personal friends/associates that I instruct anyways. Just joe or jill average on the street will know nothing of me, nothing at all.

[still learning]

Been gone for awhile. Real men will avoid a fight if possible, but that is not always possible, so if push comes to shove, then it's fight to win at all cost, anything and everything goes pure and simple.

Personally, I never talk about what I know except on places like this where it's meant to be talked about or with my close personal friends/associates that I instruct anyways. Just joe or jill average on the street will know nothing of me, nothing at all.

Hello, Sounds like you are one those? "Real men" ....keep up the good work...! ...good point too..!

Aloha,