FMA magazine

[thekuntawman]

now i see where dan inosanto got his ideas about the history of "kali" and its superiority to arnis and eskrima.:D

in the magazine "filipino martial arts" with graciela casillas on the cover, there is an article/interview with ban largusa. the interview, mr largusa talks about all those things i use to talk about in dan inosanto's FMA philosophy, the blind princess, lapu lapu's kali, the muslim kali (which edgar sulite also got a piece of that, i dont know how, since he also studied in mindanao. my guess is he is riding on the tails of what he read was filipino history), the "completeness" of kali, death matches and other stuff.

that made me mad again, because here we have both a filipino and a "grandmaster", pushing the "kali" issue, which confuses FMA practicioners more. the editor of this same magazine refused two of my sisters articles, one of mine and one of my students. why, because its "contrary to what the rest of the FMA practicioners believe". so if they all believe in santa claus you cant send one in saying there is no santa. it was suggested to me, to buy ad space in that magazine to get an article accepted. i think i will.

anyway, i want to tie this into kaith's post. with an articles like that one, i think the readers should be given a chance to see what other people have to say about people who make those claims, which fact will disagree with them.

i am sick of arguing with people about it, so i wont talk any more about it.

[moromoro]

just look at largusa's website it still talks about villabrille being the "grandmaster of the philippines" and theres a big page on "kali'....

this is what really gets me


In some parts of the Philippines, Grand Master Villabrille is considered a national hero. At the municipal museum on Mactan Island, Cebu, Philippines, Villabrille’s original certificate from Governor-General Frank Murphy hangs next to a statue of Lapu Lapu, the man who is credited for killing Magellan and stopping the Spanish invasion.

now has anyone seen this certificate.......???????

with all due to respect to the late GM Vlillabrile, they should serioursly upgrade the information........

look at the views in the kalis illustrimo views on vilabrile.......

[Black Grass]

I don't know if this is the same article in the new FMA magazine (still waiting for it in Canada) but here was an article in inside kung fu last year. Talks about the same issues:

http://www.cfw2.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=104


Vince
aka Black Grass

[Guro Harold]

I have read the stories about the late GM Villabrille from Dan Inosanto's book "The Filipino Martial Arts".

I seen some of the claims and "facts" debunked in the book, "The Secrets of Kalis Illustrisimo".

From an unbiased and specific view, what are some of the major contradictions of popular beliefs that you wish to dispell?

Best regards,

Palusut

[Bob Hubbard]

Good thread. I'm curious too.
I've read some things in books, and heard they were inaccurate, but often times never got enough info on how they were.

[Rich Parsons]

thekuntawman,

Good Information.

Now, how can we educate people otherwise?

I am being serious, and trying to be constructive.

Could we ask some of our contacts in Cebu to look for this certificate? If we find information that is not valid on their web page and can be docuemented, then we should post this in the Bad Budo section.

:asian:

[grimfang]

it was suggested to me, to buy ad space in that magazine to get an article accepted. i think i will.

I would hate to see anyone 'give in' to corporate blackmail.

Good journalism is determined by the time, effort, and willingness the publisher dedicates to gathering all the facts. If a publication's willingness to write an article is based upon the purchase of advertising space, then its pretty clear where the priorities of the publisher are. Some magazines are more interested in the 'business', and less interested in the quality/accuracy of the content. I would not recommend providing any sort of funding to such an operation. I am sure there are quality publications out there that would love to write a proper article on the subject without requiring you to pay.

[Black Grass]

Originally posted by grimfang
I would hate to see anyone 'give in' to corporate blackmail.

Good journalism is determined by the time, effort, and willingness the publisher dedicates to gathering all the facts. ...

Lets face it all the MA mags (or is it rags) are simpley newstand infomercials. Jornalism has nothing to do with it. Look at the interviews. The interviewer is generally a student of the the interviewee.

You think the interviewer is going to ask the real hard questions? Such as 'you claim to have defeated Master So-in-So but he doesn't even know who you are' ? No cause if he discredits his teacher he discredits himself or get kicked out of the system.

In any case I look forward to reading Kuntawmans article.

Vince
aka Black Grass

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Good thread. I'm curious too.
I've read some things in books, and heard they were inaccurate, but often times never got enough info on how they were.

I liked the books, but being from the US, I could not verify one way or the other the historical accuracy of them. I have a feeling Mark Wiley could not either, to a fair degree. No hard data on that one but just a feeling. I thnik Mark did a bunch of interviews and then published the books. Personally, I think it would be quite hard to really establish a pure linear history of arnis/escrima/kali in the Philippines. Lots of conflicting stories.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[The 14th Style]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
I liked the books, but being from the US, I could not verify one way or the other the historical accuracy of them. I have a feeling Mark Wiley could not either, to a fair degree. No hard data on that one but just a feeling. I thnik Mark did a bunch of interviews and then published the books. Personally, I think it would be quite hard to really establish a pure linear history of arnis/escrima/kali in the Philippines. Lots of conflicting stories.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

I think you made a really good point. When I first started training in Eskrima, I looked for everything I could about the FMA's. I asked my teacher. I looked on the internet and I bought what books I could afford. I wanted to learn about the old Masters, the history, the dances, everything I could. But some of those sources where and are Dan Inosanto's book and Mark Wiley's books. The point is, here in the desert I don't have access to the Filipino community or Any Filipino teachers that I can ask. I would love to learn more about this incredible art and the history behind it. But I am somewhat limited by where I live.

Respectfully The 14th Style

[moromoro]

i have to admire Mark Wiley somewhat for his "research":D on the FMA but more importantly for his dedication to bringing out the more unknown non commercial GM's and their systems.
But there are flaws and major flaws in research in some of his books take for instance the new book theory and practice i like the book the chapter on GM Abrian was good and was taken from the source GM Abrian ( Tatay Abrian showed me marks signed copy given to him) BUT when it came down to the section on GM Navarro he made no effort to consult GM Navarro the shocking thing about it was that GM Navarro had no idea that the book was written and there was a chapter about him. mark had gotten the info from a past student who no longer trains.

about Vilabrille

I seen some of the claims and "facts" debunked in the book, "The Secrets of Kalis Illustrisimo".


From an unbiased and specific view, what are some of the major contradictions of popular beliefs that you wish to dispell?

for one he is not considered a national hero in ANY part of the philippines, that certificate does not stand there, there was no blind princess..... and no kali and kali

thats all


thanks

terry

[Black Grass]

Originally posted by moromoro
BUT when it came down to the section on GM Navarro he made no effort to consult GM Navarro the shocking thing about it was that GM Navarro had no idea that the book was written and there was a chapter about him. mark had gotten the info from a past student who no longer trains.

about Vilabrille

for one he is not considered a national hero in ANY part of the philippines, that certificate does not stand there, there was no blind princess..... and no kali and kali

thats all

thanks

terry

Terry,

Was there any obvious errors or omissions on Black Eagle Eskrima in Wiley's book?


In regards to Villabrille and the whole blind princess thing. I believe that it could be possible if the following answers can be answered:

- Blind, blindness comes in varying degrees, was she totally blind or vision impared ? Technically Tatang Ilustrsimo was blind near the end of his life he could only see patterns of light and darkness and not images yet he was able to defend attacks still. I remember reading a article somewhere that gave this explaination.

- Pulhane tribe of Samar. Is there or was there such a tribe ?


- Princess ? Now I do not know of the history of Samar. But I can tell you that my Grandmonther was techically a 'princess' of the Bukidnon tribe, in Mindanao.

Now compared to the rest of the Philippines the interior of the Mindanao had much later contact with the spanish and colonization. Much like Norther Luzon igorots there still exists many what Filipino's call 'natives' in Mindanao. My great grand father was a Datu of a Bukidnon tribe so technically my grandmother was a princess. No one called her that but according to tradtion she was one. could it possibly be the same idea? Are there or were there at that time tribes still existing in Samar ?

What to me discredits the whole thing is the instistance that he learned kali from her and the fact that I have never read an article where the Villabrille-Largusa clan make reference to Floro's uncle GM Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo.

Vince
aka Black Grass

[Guro Harold]

Great reply, good thread!

[dearnis.com]

Let's consider the myths that abounded about the early history of karate as it first became big in the states forty-some years ago. Given time more accurate (though doubtlessly not entirely acurate) accounts came to light.
I suspect that the same will happen with the Filipino arts, given time, and, most importantly, given a willingness of Filipino practitioners to share their accounts.
I am curious whether there is some basis for the "blind princess" story in myth or folklore. Is that story an adaptation of something older?
For that matter are there any good books avavilible to English speaking readers that cover the folklore of the islands?
As I pack up to move I find myself taking inventory of my books, and I have a LOT of martial arts books, many about styles or systems I have little involvement with...yet in comparison there are very few books, of any type, on the FMAs. As noted above, for years the Inosanto book, Remy Presas' "yellow book" and Wiley's on Serrda were it. If you had connections you could get other Presas books (Remy and Ernesto) from overseas.
I think it is worth noting, in fairness to Mark Wiley, that whatever issues one may have with aspects of his writing or research, he opened up information that simply was not there before, at least not to most Americans.
The kuntawman has expressed a concern for the lack of appreciation of the culture and history on our part, and I understand where the concern comes from. And maybe I am guilty of some ignorance, but not for lack of trying. I read as much as I can, and do my best to sort out what seems plausible from what does not.
As to the magazines, especially mass market, well, they still propagate myths about arts taht have been practiced in the States openly for much longer that arnis/escrima/kali/FM whatever you want to call it.

[dearnis.com]

On the same note I was wondering of some of our native-born practitioners would share their views on Edgar Sulite's book on the various FMA masters and grandmasters?

[tshadowchaser]

I have posted befor wwhen the topic of Mr. Wiley and his books.
I know that he has not got the history of my system correct and have stated this befor. I belive he did interviews and recorded then printed whatever he was told with little checking into the facts he was given. Either he was completly fooled by some of these claims or just didn't bother to check them out I dont know. But I have the feeling he realy didn't care as long as he was makeing contacts for himslef and patting people on the back.

As for the FMA magizine its run on a shoestring budget. Mr. Jones dose go out to visit many people but the articles are late getting printed (in one instance that I know of a year after the interview) and again are what is submitted to him or told to him. Again I do not think he trys to check on the facts given to him. It is a fair magizine as opposed to good, or great.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I have posted befor wwhen the topic of Mr. Wiley and his books.
I know that he has not got the history of my system correct and have stated this befor. I belive he did interviews and recorded then printed whatever he was told with little checking into the facts he was given. Either he was completly fooled by some of these claims or just didn't bother to check them out I dont know. But I have the feeling he realy didn't care as long as he was makeing contacts for himslef and patting people on the back.

As for the FMA magizine its run on a shoestring budget. Mr. Jones dose go out to visit many people but the articles are late getting printed (in one instance that I know of a year after the interview) and again are what is submitted to him or told to him. Again I do not think he trys to check on the facts given to him. It is a fair magizine as opposed to good, or great.

Let me restate what Tshadowchaser has said. Mr Wiley, does not have the complete story, and is wrong on numerous issues.

Even though I disagree, I can appriciate, that he tried. I could only wish he had done a better job. :confused:

:asian:

[Liam_G]

Regarding Wiley's books, the one post I have seen that really has meant the most to me is from thekuntawman in this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=6307


Originally posted by thekuntawman
i like mark wiley's book because he is giving attention to people you wont hear to much about. and yes, some of the stuff people tell him is bs, but you know the history of the philippines is mostly what the older people tell you. you cant believe what the colinial masters write in there books. you cant believe what the rich pilipinos with foreign educations write. and old pilipinos tell whopper stories. but it is all part of the philippine culture and if you understand it, then the stories arent too bad.

when a pilipino old man says he killed a gang leader and half of the clan, that means he beat up a ganster.

when the old pilipinos says he was unbeaten in 100 fights and they are all death matches, that means he beat ten people in a row with no losses.

when he tells you there is no counter to a techniques he is showing to you, that means this is a favorite technique and maybe he used it successfully a lot.

few manong will lie to you, but they will stretch out the truth a lot, so there is a good reason to listen to the lesssons he gives you. mark wiley was willing to write there stories and didnt ask for teaching and certificates from them. i believe that is why he got them to talk, and why we all get to hear their stories.

It's almost like Joseph Campbell's talk about myth and metaphor, if that means anything to you. The grain of truth is in there, if you know how to interpret things. Yeah, there's incomplete and even false stuff as well, but I think (and this is an admittedly very junior opinion here!) that there is value and truth to be found, if we read Wiley with what thekuntawman said above in mind ...

Respects, Peace, and Blessings,
Liam

[moromoro]

hi vince

i have not fully read mark wileys book. i only got a chance to read it very briefly at tatay Abrian's place last march, but i will be getting it soon i will be able to read the black eagle section then i will also show it to tatay Navarro, he himself has not read it yet as i stated before he had no idea a chapter was written about him until he saw a martial arts magazine at the local newsagent.

so i will get back to you and post the findings once i get the book

thanks

terry

[arnisador]

The current (August) issue of Inside Kung Fu has an FMA section advertised on the cover. I found it very brief and disappointing.

[sungkit]

Dr Ned Nepangue is a dedicated reseracher of FMA in Cebu and has been researching many of the claims people have been making for a long time abouut FMA. While I weas in cebu, he had deatiled discussions with me about certain historical claims people have been making. He is working on a book and I am sure it is going to be very well received and.....controversial.

In regards to the certificate in Cebu, it does not exist. If it does exist like everyone has been claiming, how come Dr Ned and others have been unable to locate it?

[Rich Parsons]

Dr Ned Nepangue is a dedicated reseracher of FMA in Cebu and has been researching many of the claims people have been making for a long time abouut FMA. While I weas in cebu, he had deatiled discussions with me about certain historical claims people have been making. He is working on a book and I am sure it is going to be very well received and.....controversial.

In regards to the certificate in Cebu, it does not exist. If it does exist like everyone has been claiming, how come Dr Ned and others have been unable to locate it?


1) Will there be an English version?

2) I agree that many claims may just be that.
:asian:

[LAKANPOPOT]

Tatang used to say Panci panci lang lahat yan. Ako ang nagturo kay Floro pero gumawa siya ng sarili nyang storya. That is all fancy stuff. I taught Floro but he made his own story.

YOu see Tatang in his 90's had cataracts. I can attest to that I studied with him in his 90's. Tatang just used to laugh about the things about the Villabrille, serrada, decuerdas thing. I was shocked but it was coming from Tatang.

[Guro Harold]

"I taught Floro but he made his own story."


Hi LAKANPOPOT,

I just wanted to make sure that I understood, but is the quote above the direct translation from the late GM Illustrisimo?

Thanks,

Palusut

[sungkit]

Rich Parsons:

As far as Dr Ned told me, he will be publishing the bookin English. They are discussing publication with some publishers and I hope all develops soon. There has been a lot of travelling, time and research put into the book and a lot of myths are going to be shattered.

I will be returning to Cebu in a month or two and will discuss the progress of the books publication with Dr Ned.

[Rich Parsons]

Rich Parsons:

As far as Dr Ned told me, he will be publishing the bookin English. They are discussing publication with some publishers and I hope all develops soon. There has been a lot of travelling, time and research put into the book and a lot of myths are going to be shattered.

I will be returning to Cebu in a month or two and will discuss the progress of the books publication with Dr Ned.


Very Good, if all is not set in stone, and you wish to ask my instructor some questions, just let me know. He is Manong Ted Buot (Balintawak). He openly admits he want he does and does not know.

Let us know when it is to be published.

[sungkit]

Thanks Rich.

I am sure Dr Ned may know Manong Buot. When we were in Cebu we were introduced and ended up training with manong Sergio Arcel.

[Rich Parsons]

Thanks Rich.

I am sure Dr Ned may know Manong Buot. When we were in Cebu we were introduced and ended up training with manong Sergio Arcel.

Very good.

I was just trying to assist if I could.

Thank you and keep us informed.

:asian:

[LAKANPOPOT]

Hi LAKANPOPOT,

I just wanted to make sure that I understood, but is the quote above the direct translation from the late GM Illustrisimo?

Thanks,

Palusut
Yes, that came from the late GM Ilustrisimo. Tatang is very straight when it comes to things like that.

[sungkit]

Lakanpopot:

Sorry if I am unable to understand what tatang was saying, but was he talking about an individual student of his?

[Grasshoppah]

LANKANPOPOT

I have some questions if I can ask?
Tatang Illistrisimo and Regino Ellustrisimo are two different people?

Regino Ellustrisimo is Floro Villabrille's uncle, from what he said. As old as he was he only had good things to say about his nephew.

Is thier any finding in Dr Ned's research or any research on any comment that Floro Villabrille made about Tatang Illistrisimo?

In this book is it all about Floro Villabrille and Kali?

It seem's like you were their when Tatang said "he taught floro but Floro made his own story". I was woundering if he said this because Floro didn't mention his name in those story's or maybe because of jealousy.

Did Tatang say this so that everyone could believe he was Floro Villabrille's teacher?

This is all interesting stuff, I hope your not getting upset about these questions, Iam just a beginner and reading about escrimadors interest me.

Peace

[LAKANPOPOT]

Tatang is very particular. It started with a student who went the Philippines to look for the roots of Serrada. Tatang told him there is no Serrada here. Let me see your Serrada. He did not like the movement. This guy claimed he studied with GM Cabales. Tatang told us that it was too fancy not effective. He said Angel used to come and work out to learn from me. That started our curiosity. Because We knew about Decuerdas another and Villabrille kali. Tatang said those arts founders studied with him. Floro was his nephew. He was surprised about the claim of the blind princess. Tatang kinda disappointed about it.
Tatang taught alot of GM's in the PHilippines. Even my teacher GM ERnesto Presas. I used to see Tatang in my GM's school. That is how I met Tatang. He also said that everytime GM Remy would go home GM Remy would visit hime to Train. Tatang liked the Presas brothers. He talked highly of them and their arts. YOu see Tatang would teach anybody who was willing to learn. He is the only one to really spread his wealth of knowledge withou holding back. That is why when Tatang talked everybody listened.
I am not trying to offend anybody. Please do not get me wrong. I am just a student of Tatang. I apologize if you do not like some of my posts. Truth is you can ask Tony Diego and Topher about what Tatang thinks about the arts. They are long time students of Tatang and know him well.

[Grasshoppah]

Tatang is very particular. It started with a student who went the Philippines to look for the roots of Serrada. Tatang told him there is no Serrada here. Let me see your Serrada. He did not like the movement. This guy claimed he studied with GM Cabales. Tatang told us that it was too fancy not effective. He said Angel used to come and work out to learn from me. That started our curiosity. Because We knew about Decuerdas another and Villabrille kali. Tatang said those arts founders studied with him. Floro was his nephew. He was surprised about the claim of the blind princess. Tatang kinda disappointed about it.
Tatang taught alot of GM's in the PHilippines. Even my teacher GM ERnesto Presas. I used to see Tatang in my GM's school. That is how I met Tatang. He also said that everytime GM Remy would go home GM Remy would visit hime to Train. Tatang liked the Presas brothers. He talked highly of them and their arts. YOu see Tatang would teach anybody who was willing to learn. He is the only one to really spread his wealth of knowledge withou holding back. That is why when Tatang talked everybody listened.
I am not trying to offend anybody. Please do not get me wrong. I am just a student of Tatang. I apologize if you do not like some of my posts. Truth is you can ask Tony Diego and Topher about what Tatang thinks about the arts. They are long time students of Tatang and know him well.

Thanks, LANKANPOPOT
wow! this is good stuff, maybe old news but new to me. peace

[Cruentus]

Tatang is very particular. It started with a student who went the Philippines to look for the roots of Serrada. Tatang told him there is no Serrada here. Let me see your Serrada. He did not like the movement. This guy claimed he studied with GM Cabales. Tatang told us that it was too fancy not effective. He said Angel used to come and work out to learn from me. That started our curiosity. Because We knew about Decuerdas another and Villabrille kali. Tatang said those arts founders studied with him. Floro was his nephew. He was surprised about the claim of the blind princess. Tatang kinda disappointed about it.
Tatang taught alot of GM's in the PHilippines. Even my teacher GM ERnesto Presas. I used to see Tatang in my GM's school. That is how I met Tatang. He also said that everytime GM Remy would go home GM Remy would visit hime to Train. Tatang liked the Presas brothers. He talked highly of them and their arts. YOu see Tatang would teach anybody who was willing to learn. He is the only one to really spread his wealth of knowledge withou holding back. That is why when Tatang talked everybody listened.
I am not trying to offend anybody. Please do not get me wrong. I am just a student of Tatang. I apologize if you do not like some of my posts. Truth is you can ask Tony Diego and Topher about what Tatang thinks about the arts. They are long time students of Tatang and know him well.

Dude...thats pretty cool. I never heard anything about Professor RP training with Tatang. Interesting.

Thanks!

[Guro Harold]

Dude...thats pretty cool. I never heard anything about Professor RP training with Tatang. Interesting.

Thanks!

LAKANPOPOT,

Great post!

Palusut

[LAKANPOPOT]

You see guys the Presas people try to train with the best. I see old GM's in our school lots of times. man Ben Lema in his prime was teaching my GM, GM Jose Mena of Doblete Rapilon,etc. The Presas brothers were good friends with most FMA masters. Did you know that GM Remy used to tell our Seniors where we learned our stuff and not to teach our stuff. LIke our Daga techniques, and Mano mano. GM Ernesto revealed alot of Family techniques. The things GM Remy promised his family he would not teach. We asked our teacher about it. He says his Father and Grandfather gave him the blessing to teach their treasured secrets. That is what Kombatan is.

One interesting story bout the Presas brothers maybe you heard is. Remy was a barber and when he had the chance to meet a famous arnisador he would ask them for lessons in return for the haircut. Remy and Erning would go one would do the dummy and the other takes notes and exchange. Cool stuff. From GM Ernesto Huh!

[Cruentus]

I always knew that Professor and his brother had a good network with various different masters in the PI. Professor Remy just rarely mentioned "who." :ultracool