India bare knuckle

[destructautomaton]

I read some info on india bare knuckle as well as fighting with the knuckle dusters does these styles still exist or did they die out? i know india wrestling is also suffering from a lack of support though its a really old tradition.

[blackdiamondcobra]

What brought me to make the physical body dvds on indian wrestling was a researcher and popular writer who documented the old bare knuckle systems in his youth. He said in exchange for his full research and writing I would have to help document kushti which was the main course of his writing and his mission. We agreed and he helped me tremendously into my research into the various bare knuckle systems and the teachers.

I was glad to have completed the physical body for me before he died and he was very appreciative and enjoyed it. He died soon after he saw it and i dedicated the physical body 2 to him. In the physical body 2, i talk about similarities in how things are run to bare knuckle fightng tournaments like burmese lethwae. I didnt want to go into the indian bare knuckle at this time on dvd but later hopefully.

I think he also understood that i really needed to study indian wrestling and the workouts to understand that some of those very workouts were indeed part of the bare knuckle training routines.

The bare knuckle systems in varanasi are very old. I located four of the remaining teachers and they shared their systems with me. They had students but they were hidden and trained in secret. I met another master who also trained in the staff as they had staff fights on rooftops and mass stick fights in the old days. Interesting stuff.

A couple of years ago, I organized a competition to show how the fights were once held. We had several fighters compete against one another. The situation turned into a near riot as people from everywhere showed up, literally crowding us in from every direction.

The old teacher said this was exactly what it was like and the near riots and the damage to the fighters was what stopped the competitions all together. The crowds got blood thirsty and everything deteriorated. Supporters of one fighter often rallied against the supporters of another. We see this alot even in older competitions in southeast asia where referees were not in existence.

In the south, there are bare knuckle teachers remaining but no competitions so its just a small pocket here and there.

The vajra fighters with the knuckle dusters is the most interesting a combination of boxing and wrestling is really close to the mma of today, fought in the sand like kushti, it had an excellent workout routine especially designed for the fighters. It is pretty much dying and will be dead in the next decade or so, with few remaining. It was a brutal art and practice, so its hard to even bring it back for competition it would have to be just a demo in a safe way.

So the answer to your question, it is all there and surviving for the moment in what they can, but in the future I dont know what will survive. India is huge and so little work has been done to document the arts there. Even in kalaripayattu, as i mentioned and my research shows, there is an old kalaripayattu and a newer version which says its old but is based on a new revival or recreation which is what we see mostly out there on dvd and on the internet. The older stuff is really hidden and some of it is quite good. But thats another topic.

[destructautomaton]

Thanks!

[blackdiamondcobra]

I have to apologize for the typos in my posts. Sometimes I just write too quick and dont take enough time to proof it out.

I meant to say most importantly, that I made the physical body 1 for HIM (meaning govardhan) before he died, and i wrote I made physical body 1 for me which is not the case at all.

I hope in the future revisit this topic on film on last time because there are elements I would like to cover in more detail then show them in relation to the older bare knuckle as well as the older mma type of integration of boxing and wrestling.

[Fede]

It seems that all that is of value and true is destined to be forgotten and lost. And in India as well, replaced with something else, like in Thailand and Cambodia.

The Vajira fighters fighting with knuckle dusters are amazing, it makes me think about ancient Roman boxers. The training routines must be great, geared for NHB fighting.

Thank you for the glimpse on older competitions, it is very interesting and valuable information. crazy stuff too from the supporters, not even letting the fights take place! I mean these competitions could have been a way to prove who was the best, fairly and in front of everyone. That should have been a way to stop the rivalry, but these competitions-like many kinds of confrontation-further enhance the rivalry.
It reminds me of the rivalry between luta livre and gracie jiu-jitsu in Brasil a while ago, it took some time before it was sqashed.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Yes, vajra fights had the feel of the ancient roman and greek battles. They were bloodthirsty affairs which led at times to injury or death.

It was interesting that immediately the crowd swelled in the varanasi fights. I was like where did all these people come from? But the same thing happened when we had a small village fight in Burma. Suddenly people just showed up. I guess there is little excitement in their lives on a day to day basis so something so simple becomes a distraction from the mundane. But it also shows what happens when a crowd gets swept up into the action. In India, there was rock throwing and actual stoning of people during and after fights. Again, not only the problems of fighters being hurt but people attending.

We see even when the teachers and writers romanticize the old bare knuckle in thailand saying it was done with a special passion and had integrity which the current sport doesn't have, we know from records it was stopped because people were getting killed and savaged, because for every "royal fight" there were tons of grudge matches and fiercely contested matches were the outcomes were often fatal. For me though the real reason was they lost the meaning and training of the techniques which truly became antique from lack of use(fighting/training to fight)and faded or morphed into the static posture we see. So its really a cover for a missing link. We see with some "masters" currently in thailand desperately trying to produce fighters and find the index and depth they never asked their masters about, they learned like machines A to B to C all the way to end but not what the ladder of function was from A to B and how to make from A to B into functional reality. Only the old masters holds the keys and they are largely ignored, forgotten or people never bothered to ask them to decode these things. I can see that now so clear as day from all my training years and research, its sad none of them really see it.

In India, we have these old masters with the indexes but they are fading because frankly no one cares and no one remembers anything about it. I find unless you are really clear with a teacher about your intent, what you are looking for, what you are trying to understand...they tend to give you what they think you want or just a generic version. So many times we see people saying I got all that they showed me and then a tidal wave of stuff comes out of the master later when someone asked the but what about this and that and how does this work for real.

[Khmo]

Infos on india very intéressant !!!

thank

[Fede]

Very dangerous situation! Being surrounded by angry people coming out of nowhere, it cannot get more real than that!!
I would look at those episodes for a more realistic link to battle, rather than at the many recreations "real warfare".

I see what you mean with the romanticizing the bare knuckle era.
That's the picture I got at first, both in Thailand and China and I don't think I am the only one.

To tell you the truth, I have lost a lot of time at the very beginning with false promises from kung fu teachers who said that "with time, you will be able to kill" and with "boxing, muay thai they are only sports, there are rules, in real confrontations it won't work well".
Even when the ufc came out, there were still some who said that it was a sport with rules and so, not really worthy!!
I am not looking down on kung fu or on some muay chaiya teachers in Thailand, just giving my opinion on that situation.
But I don't understand how some people can say that thai boxing lacks integrity?? To do well in boxing, muay thai, you do need integrity, discipline and be respectful, or you'll probably be left aside.
It's funny, I do not see thai boxers looking down on Chaiya, Korat....but the opposite has been true for a long time now with some Chaiya guys.
What you say is true, Chaiya training tends to focus on stances and accuracy of empty movements/patterns, I know because that's what I have done too so far.
It's only recently that some Chaiya guys started narrowing things down to something that resembles muay thai, and they have integrated ground techniques too, this alone is very telling.

Again, it's the original systems and arts that are slowly dying away and it is sad.

[Fede]

I just watched this fight after a long time, that's bare knuckle indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxcdLsGHA_M

comments are in French, so Khmo will enjoy them.

[blackdiamondcobra]

In thailand, the old material turned into a commodity, so in one sense it revitalized a dying tradition and in another it turned some of these teachers into ego monsters with an eye on totally rewriting history and their own evolutions. So you will always get the good with the bad. I dont see any such turn for the older india stuff there is really no interest within the country for it. They are trying to revive the southern system of adithada with more modern competitions along the physical education lines but time will time how that goes.

There is also another problem that the martial arts of india remain below ground, meaning they are taught in a very traditional way, most of the time away from prying eyes or any commercial consideration.

When I train with my teacher in the south of india on marma adi, southern kalari, etc, its always late at night with the windows and doors locked. The only witness ever is his son. People only know him as a ayurveda doctor and yoga master. So its passed on and even taught in secret. He said this is the tradition and this is how it will be carried on. This is another reason why we know so little about whats there and how deep it is. Its an interesting investigation and always inspiring training wise. I see a depth there that has not even been glimpsed at, reported or shown to the public at large, so we cant gauge how deep the pool really is.

[Fede]

Very interesting!
Keeping it real, away from the public eye and commerce, how many do that nowadays?

[Tez3]

Very interesting!
Keeping it real, away from the public eye and commerce, how many do that nowadays?

We still have fights here that are kept away from the public, mostly gypsy fighters.

[blackdiamondcobra]

My original interest in bare knuckle came from a gypsy fighter, a very old one who relocated to NY, i trained since i was young in a boxing gym. Came in one day with a black guy, he asked me what happened, said I got into a fight. He sat me down and explained the difference between sport with gloves and fighting without. Showed me alot of gypsy fighting tricks, it ignited my interest in this type of bare knuckle. So it ties in very much into my interests and research.

My friend in England, David did a documentary called Bare Fist: The Sport That Wouldnt Die, but it was banned from being shown in the UK, for reasons i suppose of violence or showing an illegal sport. Maybe one day we can do a release in the US and Europe.

Here is a brief on it:

"""Bare fist the sport that would not die has long been banned in Great Britain as the censors felt its actual footage of bare knuckle fighting would encourage others to imitate.What cobblers! Here is an intelligent documentary that gives an in depth history lesson about the origins of bare knuckle boxing. As well as including actual bare knuckle fights with a very good explanation of whats going on both mentally and physically by English bouncer and hard man Geoff Thomson.The real treat is that the film is presented and narrated by the late Lenny " The Guv'nor" Mclean, Britain's greatest Bare knuckle fighter who's East end wit shines through out the film.Listen to Lennys funny commentary while two Irish bare knuckle fighters smash into each other in a town square. As one man is held up victorious by the crowd,Lenny says " hold up I think someones won the bingo" , brilliant stuff! we also have a for and against point of view about bare knuckle fighting with members of the British medical council giving their views as well as fighters like Billy Cribb and Paddy Monaghan.The film does not glorify violence, and Big Lenny himself gives his own personal opinion of knife culture that sums up his feelings about cowards who carry such dangerous weapons. The British government would find this scene very effective if used in an anti knife campaign. If you you ever get the chance to see this powerful and well directed film then do so."""

[blackdiamondcobra]

Did it again! correction::::I came into the gym with a black eye(not a black guy!) from a street fight i had a few days before. I was training for the golden gloves at the time. The old trainer only had a few guys he used to train but he was very tough in an old school way. He took a liking to me and always used to give me advice, most of which was forget about fighting.....he didnt have much confidence in me,, guess thats why he was always showing me a few tricks.

[Fede]

That's nice, gypsy fighting must be tremendous as it must have been a long tradition among the different groups, tried and tested.

Too bad that documentary was banned.

Tez, I am sure there are fights among gypsy groups, maybe something like when football hooligans decide to face each other away from the public
and not during football matches, I think it is mostly due to avoid getting arrested. I recently saw documentary by Ross Kemp that showed the situation with gypsies in England, that was tough.
What I meant was teaching an art in secrecy, but I am sure that gypsies do that as well, how could they ever publicize that!

[Tez3]

Football hooligans and gypsies shouldn't really be put in the same sentence lol! The gypsies fight properly with rules, breaks between rounds etc. The football thugs are just that and it's not just a British thing, it's rife on the Continent too. Frankly the footbal thugs are worse than animals.
I have a DVD of gypsy fights given to me by my instructor who has had a couple of fights himself that way.
We have three travellers/gypsies who train with us in MMA.

[Fede]

Nice, like old pugilism tournaments.

Sure, that phenomenon is everywhere in Europe now, not just in England.
Among the older hooligans, those of the eighties/nineties, there were agreements to fight without weapons and as fairly as possible. But nothing to do with proper matches with rounds and all.
They themselves look at most hooligans as stray dogs, there are a couple of videos of them talking about that but they are in Italian. It's all crazy in the end, fight for what exactly????
What you see now are just thugs, bringing knives, clubs and other weapons and then it's hit and run away. I lived near a stadium and it was better not to hang around that area on most sundays, couldn't even go and enjoy matches!

It's interesting, I have never heard of Gypsy or Gypsy Traveller fighters, it's interesting info there should be a thread on that.



Football hooligans and gypsies shouldn't really be put in the same sentence lol! The gypsies fight properly with rules, breaks between rounds etc. The football thugs are just that and it's not just a British thing, it's rife on the Continent too. Frankly the footbal thugs are worse than animals.
I have a DVD of gypsy fights given to me by my instructor who has had a couple of fights himself that way.
We have three travellers/gypsies who train with us in MMA.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Good point, Tez3. The hooligans are a different and seperate thing from the various gypsies. There are different types of gypsy cultures as well which was explained to me by Billy Cribb author of Tarmac Warrior which is about his life as a gypsy and fighter. He was a romani gypsy.

Bare Fist is a good doc, its very entertaining, made for a wide audience, so it might not satisfy the harder core of martial artists viewers but it does contain some unique insight on the fighters and the sport. Its a serious ban because if its shown in the UK David will be arrested.

I have hours of gypsy fighting and there are some fighters who are quite tactical and have tremendous skill, some dont just swing for the fences.

One of my favorite books is King of The Gypsies by the late Bartley Gorman, on page 76 he goes through some of the actual blows and it definitely mirrors what the old gypsy taught me when i was a kid. Theres also a brief bit on gypsy fighting tradition in Bare Fists by Bob Mee. The Guv'nor by the late Lenny McClean is about his life and the bare knuckle tradition in Britain though he is not from knowledge a gypsy.

[Tez3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w0G-KtzmII


There's quite a few gypsy fights on You Tube now. Considering the OP title this isn't actually off topic as Gypsies/Roma originated in South Asia of Hindu origin.

[blackdiamondcobra]

I agree Tez3, about the tie in with the gypsies and se asia/india. It was one of the reasons i went back and took a closer look. The fights like you say are run in an old format people would recognize in the older ways things were run in se asia and india.

[Fede]

I know this is going to be off-topic as well, but there must be knife systems because Gitanos of Spain have that. Since Gypsies are all over Europe, there has to be some difference.

[Tez3]

I know this is going to be off-topic as well, but there must be knife systems because Gitanos of Spain have that. Since Gypsies are all over Europe, there has to be some difference.

I don't think they have here, we have gypsies, travellers, tinkers and the Roma now, all of which are different. I've never seen seen fighting here at all.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Fede:
I believe the knife was probably part of the traveling gypsies arsenal at some point and maybe the use of it was lessened or grew extinct over time or was just kept as inside knowledge passed within families or groups. We know the spanish, italian and other gypsies knew of the knife and used it for self protection.

Found some interesting pieces at gypsy lore society that I really want to look into at later date:

Notice the first here mentions knife fighting culture:

Kircherized Knowledge and "The Egyptian Question"
David "Jim" Nemeth, University of Toledo
"The Egyptian Question" can be distinguished from "The Egyptian Problem." Curiosity gives rise to both, but curiosity about Gypsies once "problematized" demands action that usually poses a threat to Gypsies. "Problems" by definition exist to be solved. Scientific problem solving is a systematic process that by design produces a win/lose outcome. Problem Gypsies in this scenario are destined to lose. For humanitarian reasons, Gypsy scholars should attempt to explore alternatives to a problem solving approach in Gypsy studies that can satisfy the curiosity of outsiders yet does not threaten Gypsies. Gypsy "problems" might, for example, be resolved, absolved or dissolved rather than solved. My presentation focuses on a way to dissolve "The Egyptian Problem." It promotes a "Kircherized Knowledge" approach to Gypsy studies in place of the familiar "Tree of Knowledge" approach. Kircherized knowledge relates anything (as contrasted to everything) about Gypsies that can be connected into a robust and enjoyable roundtable discussion that goes nowhere. "The Egyptian Question," in contrast to "The Egyptian Problem," is an enriching conversation in and for itself. Truth seeking about Gypsies is not required in order to participate in this conversation. Kircherized knowledge about Gypsies flows rather than advances, and is inchoate, yet interesting. My example of a Kircherized conversation begins with a photograph of "Mr. and Mrs. Gypsy Joe," a wrestling act in the early 1950s. I still don't know if they were Gypsies, but I know that some Rom Gypsies were great fans of "The Joes," and that 25 years later they were still almost exclusively watching wrestling (along with roller derby and cartoons) on their television set. They considered most other television programs dirty (soap operas) or boring (news). When they weren't watching television or working, they were playing instruments, dancing and singing. The songs were often dated American pop songs that related to the Gypsy motif (for example "Golden Earrings," "Cabbages and Kings," "The Song of the Wild Goose"). Other songs were heavily censored or completely avoided depending on Rom Gypsy standards of morality (I learned of this the hard way!). My Kircherized conversation flows on into what Professor Ian Hancock disdains as the "supposed Romani penchant for using knives to settle matters," where I fix momentarily on the provenance of the navaja, or "Gypsy fighting knife," in and around the Iberian Peninsula. I conclude this example with a brief anecdote about surreal circumstances surrounding my own impendent knife fight with the virtual Gypsy leader of an exclusive Yahoo! message group, leading to my expulsion from his cozy Internet campsite.

The second mentions briefly about migration from the indian subcontinent to the middle east and europe, while exploring crime and gypsies:

Gypsies, Teens and Thieves: The Societal Reaction to Crime
Nadine Blumer, University of Toronto Ontario
From "gypping" someone out of their money, referring to a life of vagrancy and laziness, admonishment for being unhygienic and germ infested, warnings of having your babies or children stolen, to admiration for musical flair, fanciful styles and a romantic life of wandering, the standard image of the Gypsy is couched in stereotype, contradiction and appears to be a caricature of all that modern-day industrialized societies reject as immoral and inefficient. However evidence of intolerance and rejection of Gypsies dates back to their first migrations out of the Indian subcontinent more than 1000 years ago into the Middle East and eventually Europe (Lewy, 1999). Who are the Gypsies and why do these images of crime, deviancy and exoticism exist and persist? In this paper I explore the social construction of crime and how this translates into repercussions for those commonly viewed as the source of trouble. I outline the historical perception of Gypsy culture as criminal and deviant and suggest that this labeling may be indicative of more general and widespread fears present in any mainstream society. Many of the explanations attributable to negative views of Gypsies are not particular to Gypsy lifestyle alone. Popular conceptions of Gypsy culture that incite so much fear and mistrust vis-à-vis this population can be carried over to other "suspect" populations as well. The common practice of linking adolescents to activities of ill repute and criminality is a case in point. The similarities are striking when considering the labeling of deviant behavior to which both Gypsy and youth cultures have been historically subjected. This suggests that societal reactions to crime may have more to do with those doing the labeling, than with those being labeled. As such these reactions may not necessarily be reflective of the particularities of a targeted group's distinctive culture, behavior or attitude and thus, not always based in objective meanings of crime and deviance.

from:
http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/conf03abst.html

[Fede]

Thanks for sharing this information.

I heard about knife duels, they were very very common in Italy especially among gangsters of the past.
Nowadays it is only the older who still have that knowledge, and it's transmitted very informally and without the instructor-student thing.
The navaja was introduced in Neaples by the Spanish and it became the weapon of the early organized crime or duels of honour, they made them thinner in order to hide them better inside clothes.

The link with India is very interesting.

[blackdiamondcobra]

During my travels in India, I met one man who had a very interesting skill with a handkerchief. He would use it every now and then almost in a martial pattern. I asked if he knew how to use it and i demonstrated some rope techniques and asked if he could use it a similar manner. He just said no.

The Old Thugees or thugs were a criminal underclass thought to be a cult that were like gypsy travelers that trailed, robbed and murdered fellow travelers often by strangulation. They were supposedly wiped out by the British in the 1800s.

They were reported to be adept at strangling their prey, " As quick as thought the cloth was round his neck; I seemed endued with superhuman strength. I wrenched his neck round-he struggled convulsively for an instant, and fell. I did not quit my hold, i knelt down on him, and strained the cloth till my hand ached; but he moved not- he was dead! I quitted my hold, and started to my feet. I was my blood boiled, and I felt as though I could have strangled a hundred others, so easy, so simple had the reality been. One turn of my wrists had placed me on an equality with those who had followed
the profession for years-I had taken the first place in the enterprise, for I had killed the principal victim!"

Could have been my active imagination as well reading into something that was not there as well. Interesting to note at this time in Varanasi, I found out that several foreign tourists were killed. Tourists would take boat rides down the ganges and they would be killed, robbed and their stripped bodies dumped into the ganges or burnt in the pyres. It was not a well known fact because they brought in "tourist police" to monitor the boats and certain areas and they interrogated any foreigner traveling with an indian person heading down the ganges. The police quickly brought a stop to the rash of killings but it was still unsettling.

Obviously on the boat they were executing some sort of "quick kill" with a knife and a rope, etc then discarding the bodies. The police didnt want the information to get out because high tourist season was coming and news of this type of thing would certainly have dampened that.

One week into the trip, one night late, a pack of wild teens rushed me and grabbed at my waist strap which had a small pack on it. He tried to pull it free but i was armed with a heavy maglite and three knives. I just locked in his hand and busted his nose open with the maglite, and put him down pretty bad. The pack scattered while I pinned the kid down in a hold. Within seconds, tourist police with guns and lathi sticks, had whipped down the rest of the pack and carted away the main culprit. They literally beat the hell out of them right there on the street as they were pulling them down the street.

Made friends with the local police and got some free lathi lessons later in the week.

Such is life in india. In one of the holiest of all places on the sacred Ganges, the undercurrent of violence still exists as it has for centuries.

[Fede]

Dangerous indeed, or you wouldn't have carried three knives.
What surprised me a bit was how fast the police intervened and caught them. It's cool they taught you things, I like exchanging techniques in a friendly and relaxed way.
The Indian authorities did a good job in covering that information, I never heard of such a vast number of foreigners being robbed and killed in India.

What you say about the thugs brought back old memories. There was a very famous writer in Italy, Emilio Salgari (the one who started spaghetti westerns, by the way) who wrote novels set in India.
What I remember clearly is that he mentioned these Thugs. They were described as fast and silent assassins who killed in the way you described, either by strangling with a cloth or stabbing with a kriss. Plus they wore a turban, which is typical of some gipsies.
Too many similarities with your description, and I am quite sure the writer's description of the thugs came from his research since he was very interested in commerce with eastern lands and involved in that to some little extent as he studied in the navy to sail for those lands but never made it there.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Hi fede,

I usually carry a weapon in whatever country i go, the maglite as well is a tremendous weapon, capable of some serious damage.

The police were monitoring the whole area, so any sign of commotion they were there. Also at the head and tail of every major sort of street they were stationed. When i back in subsequent years, that was no longer in place, it was just during this one period when I was there.

The police carried rifles so it was lathi and rifles during this time. My read of the situation was there were probably more people killed than they admitted. If tourists went missing and no body found it would time to filter it back to them.

There are several very well written books on Thugs which I always found fascinating. I even watched one of the old film stranglers of bombay the other night!

[destructautomaton]

My father traveled through India way back but told me a lot of similar stories also there is much poverty and that contributes to violence a lot of times. i am sure the bare knuckle battles were pretty vicious. i am also very interesting in reading some of the writing on the gypsies which sounds pretty fascinating

[blackdiamondcobra]

Each person has their own journey as you said and their own experiences. I dont go there or anywhere just as a tourist. I go to each place and try to actually live there and go wherever i want. You sometimes have to get beneath the veneer to really understand the culture and live with people and experience a bit of their lives. Most people just float along the surface and thats their experience that defines the place.

I hold nothing against india or indian people or any culture, poverty and desperation leads people to do things that are often unthinkable for what they believe will be their survival. I enjoy India and go back whenever i can because i people i usually live and train are nothing short of amazing.

[destructautomaton]

Its wonderful all the journeys you describe and the info and training you bring back hopefully all these systems will not die out---