The Arts Today: A Comparison, A Rant

[MJS]

I suppose this will be one of those 'hot' topics, one that will be a NHB sort of thread, however, while it no doubt will get hot, feelings will get hurt, keep in mind....a) I intend to keep all of my posts well within the rules, although I can't speak for others, I'm hoping they do the same, b) some tender hearts will get hurt, no doubt. Part of being in the arts, and on a forum, is to have a thick skin. If the words of some on the net offend you, God help you in the real world. That being said....here goes......

I've been in the arts for a bit over 20yrs now. I didn't know much when I started, but I've had the chance to see quite a bit, fastforwarding to present time. I've read books, articles, spoke with various people...all of which has shown the same thing, that the arts have really changed from past to what we see today. Back in the day it was nothing to get banged up, whereas today, the slightest bit of contact, and people cry foul, because their glass child got hurt or hit too hard. Better clear the sidewalks for the campout of lawyers. Back in the day, the focus was on learning, which took time, lots of time, whereas today, if Johnny isn't keeping up with Joey, God forbid, and he doesnt get promoted at the same time, God forbid we have Johnny wait until he's old enough for black belt, instead of giving it to him when he's 7.

Is that what the arts have come to today? A bunch of take my dough dojos, who promote kids who aren't old enough to drive yet? Seems like the mentality is, as long as the kid shows up to class, can compete well, and knows his stuff, who gives a rats ass if he's 7 and a 1st degree, or 12 and a 3rd degree. If thats what it comes down to today, thats sad and very pathetic!

People run around saying, "Well, Master so and so thinks Joey looks good so he is deserving of that 4th degree....even though he's only 12." Well, people must be living with blinders on, because if thats what they think, they're kidding themselves. I mean really, if you were paying GM or Master X, X number of dollars, of course they're going to promote the kid. They're getting paid, do you really think they give a **** about Joey?

Thank God there are still schools around today, to counter the McDojos that are so rampant today. Schools that put quality over quantity and dont cater to the Jones', who think it's all about them, and who feel that their 8yo should be a 2nd degree.

Its sad, and its a joke. And frankly, I'd be ashamed to admit that my kid is that young and has that rank.

Enough ranting from me for now.. :)....I'm sure there're others who will agree and those that disagree. I just wonder, how people can sleep at night, knowing that their kid is a laughing stock amongst other martial artists...those who bust their ass on the mat, those who have put in the blood, sweat and tears into training, those who dont run and cry when they get hit.

[Bill Mattocks]

I can understand your complaints. To some extent, they are twin copies of the complaints people have about public schools today.

Fortunately, there are cures for both - go private. In a very practical sense, if McDojos promote Johnny to BB in 12 months at age 12, so what? In what way are you harmed? You could call him a rainbow belt and it would mean the same thing.

As to the training hard and getting injured part...

I train hard, I get injured. Life goes on. However, I'm not willing to endure broken jawbones, needing stitches every other week, etc. I'm not training in martial arts to be tough, rough, and downright badass. I have a job, I have to go to work every day. Taking time off work to go get stitches or have bones set - not a good thing. If it should happen from time to time, oh well. If it is a regular thing or if it's considered cool to beat on each other to that point as a regular event, then no thanks. I'm not training for the MMA.

[MJS]

I can understand your complaints. To some extent, they are twin copies of the complaints people have about public schools today.

Fortunately, there are cures for both - go private. In a very practical sense, if McDojos promote Johnny to BB in 12 months at age 12, so what? In what way are you harmed? You could call him a rainbow belt and it would mean the same thing.

How will the 'harder' schools be hurt? By harder, I mean any school other than the McDojos, the ones with contact, dont promote 7yr olds to 3rd degree black...well, those people could lose students. If its not understood from day 1, what is expected, then those people will leave and go to the easy school. Of course, if its understood, then the harder school has nothing to worry about. But again, people need to understand that.


As to the training hard and getting injured part...

I train hard, I get injured. Life goes on. However, I'm not willing to endure broken jawbones, needing stitches every other week, etc. I'm not training in martial arts to be tough, rough, and downright badass. I have a job, I have to go to work every day. Taking time off work to go get stitches or have bones set - not a good thing. If it should happen from time to time, oh well. If it is a regular thing or if it's considered cool to beat on each other to that point as a regular event, then no thanks. I'm not training for the MMA.

Likewise Bill, I too have a job, that I can't afford to not show up at, all because of an injury. No, I'm not talking about a workout so hard that the students are being taken out by ambulance. But I'm talking about getting hit and being able to take it. If people can't take a hit in the dojo, how are they going to survive in the real world? If I'm doing self defense in class, I should be able to grab someone by the lapel, hard, and move them, just like it would happen in the real world, and not have them cry that I'm going too hard. I should be able to throw a punch and if they miss and get hit, not cry.

If you get hit in sparring and it takes the wind from you or you get knocked down, dont be a baby about it...get back up and fight. Thats what I'm talking about.

[Omar B]

I hear ya man. Though from the standpoint of a dojo owner, you gotta have kids to make more money, kids want validation so they need a promotion every month, they wanna spar so they have these huge pads. So you end up with young kids with inflated belt levels who have never taken or given a real punch, and would likely have their parents sue if it did happen.

Maybe teens/adults should be taught separately and the kids have a different belt system. I know I slogged it out from 12 to 16 as a brown belt and it didn't bother me one bit. But then I knew realistically that I could not perform at a black belt's level so I could not have it. Whereas today spoiled kids (or is it spoiled parents) need to see it.

[MJS]

I hear ya man. Though from the standpoint of a dojo owner, you gotta have kids to make more money, kids want validation so they need a promotion every month, they wanna spar so they have these huge pads. So you end up with young kids with inflated belt levels who have never taken or given a real punch, and would likely have their parents sue if it did happen.

Maybe teens/adults should be taught separately and the kids have a different belt system. I know I slogged it out from 12 to 16 as a brown belt and it didn't bother me one bit. But then I knew realistically that I could not perform at a black belt's level so I could not have it. Whereas today spoiled kids (or is it spoiled parents) need to see it.

Good points, but of course, thats why, there're 2 types of school owners. One has a school thats his bread and butter, while the other has another FT job. Now, this isn't to say that the guy with the FT job who runs the school on the side, isnt going to want to make money, but there is a difference, and if I were to run a school, I'd enroll kids that were at least 10. I've taught for many years, and more times than not, the younger ones just do not have what it takes. So that brings up the question...if they have the attention span of a fly, how can those same kids be promoted to 3rd degree if they're 10 or 12? So they screwed off when they were little, but suddenly did a 180 and now they're worthy of high rank?

Validation...while I do see your point, its those same parents and kids who see the belt for more than it is, and they assume their kid is worthy of it, but what happens when the kid gets his ass kicked? "But Joey was a BB. Why did this happen???" Not saying that the arts make you invincible, but I'd rather get more satisfaction having the kid learn quality material that he can do, and make work under pressure, rather than giving him a pacifier (a belt) every month, when he really isn't worthy of it.

Now, some will say that their kid is and maybe they are worthy of it. But, IMO, the odds of a 12yo 3rd degree, having the same understanding of things as an adult, is few and far between. I've taught people kata and techs. Told them to practice on their own for 10 min. and I'd be back. I'd come back, they'd say they had it, so I'd ask to see it. Know what happened? More times than not, I was able to find things wrong with the kata, and when that punch was really coming at them, they fell apart. So yes, on the surface they do 'have it' but deep down, no they did not.

[MJS]

Maybe teens/adults should be taught separately and the kids have a different belt system. I know I slogged it out from 12 to 16 as a brown belt and it didn't bother me one bit. But then I knew realistically that I could not perform at a black belt's level so I could not have it. Whereas today spoiled kids (or is it spoiled parents) need to see it.

I didn't comment on this in the other post, so I'd like to do so now. :) My old school had 10 techs and 2 kata per belt. Younger kids, the 4, 5, 6 yr olds, did half the material, so 5 techs, 1 kata. Once they reached BB level, they were given a Jr. BB, and then went back to learn the other material. I'd rather see a JR. BB used, and promote the kid to full BB when they're 16 or 17, instead of a 12yo 3rd degree. So, by the time the kid was old enough, they were ready to test for adult BB, knew all the material and still felt like they were accomplishing something.

[Bill Mattocks]

How will the 'harder' schools be hurt? By harder, I mean any school other than the McDojos, the ones with contact, dont promote 7yr olds to 3rd degree black...well, those people could lose students. If its not understood from day 1, what is expected, then those people will leave and go to the easy school. Of course, if its understood, then the harder school has nothing to worry about. But again, people need to understand that.


Would the parents of those kids who choose a McDojo choose your dojo if they had no other choice? I suspect that not all of them would - perhaps not even many of them.

Many people clearly view MA as a form of babysitting for the kids, and a set of awards and trophies for them to use in showing off to the neighbors what great kids they have. Their values are not the same as yours, which is why they choose the McDojo. If the McDojo's suddenly vanished, I don't suspect that the parents would change their values suddenly.



Likewise Bill, I too have a job, that I can't afford to not show up at, all because of an injury. No, I'm not talking about a workout so hard that the students are being taken out by ambulance. But I'm talking about getting hit and being able to take it. If people can't take a hit in the dojo, how are they going to survive in the real world? If I'm doing self defense in class, I should be able to grab someone by the lapel, hard, and move them, just like it would happen in the real world, and not have them cry that I'm going too hard. I should be able to throw a punch and if they miss and get hit, not cry.


Got it. Well, I've been hit hard enough to drop me, and I didn't cry, but I did say 'ow' and a bunch of not nice words (to myself). And I hurt my knee badly enough at one point that I could not train for awhile. So I didn't.



If you get hit in sparring and it takes the wind from you or you get knocked down, dont be a baby about it...get back up and fight. Thats what I'm talking about.

I'm with you on that. But getting back to kids in McDojos and parents of those kids - they don't want that. So they don't go for it. I don't see that changing.

[suicide]

theres nothing you can do or anybody can do about it , its just gonna make ma look bad when a 12 year old girl beats up a 12 year old boy thats a 2nd degree black belt on the playground :knight2:but it happens all the time and its been happening - question for you MJS what age were you when you started in the MA ? theres alot of reasons why a kid becomes a 3rd degree chicken mcnugget at the age of 13 but at some point that kids mentality will strenghten and he will realize that he has to step his game up , especially if hes going to tournys. with other kids that do do this MA for all the right reasons - if not that kid will be into something else by the time he reaches grand master chicken mcnugget status at the age of 16 , who knows maybe there parents just want some cool pics of the kids in gi´s to hang up in there living rooms ...

[MJS]

theres nothing you can do or anybody can do about it , its just gonna make ma look bad when a 12 year old girl beats up a 12 year old boy thats a 2nd degree black belt on the playground :knight2:but it happens all the time and its been happening -

Wasn't looking for a solution to the problem, as I know that would be next to impossible. Like I said in the title of the thread, a rant.


question for you MJS what age were you when you started in the MA ? theres alot of reasons why a kid becomes a 3rd degree chicken mcnugget at the age of 13 but at some point that kids mentality will strenghten and he will realize that he has to step his game up , especially if hes going to tournys. with other kids that do do this MA for all the right reasons - if not that kid will be into something else by the time he reaches grand master chicken mcnugget status at the age of 16 , who knows maybe there parents just want some cool pics of the kids in gi´s to hang up in there living rooms ...

I was 12 and got my 1st degree black when I was 16. I've been training in Kenpo for 23 yrs. now. I'm just a 3rd degree. I'm a first degree in Arnis. Frankly, I really dont give a crap about rank or promotions. My goal is to train and learn, nothing more, nothing less. When my teachers are ready to promote me, they will. I do not ask, now will I ever ask when I'll be promoted to another rank.

Oh and in case you're wondering why so many years in Kenpo and just a 3rd degree....no particular reason. I did transition between Kenpo schools, which also required me to learn their material. As I said, rank isn't important to me, because when the poop hits the fan, its my skill that'll make or break it for me, not the belt with the stripes.

[MJS]

Would the parents of those kids who choose a McDojo choose your dojo if they had no other choice? I suspect that not all of them would - perhaps not even many of them.

I do not own a school. I train and teach when I can. If someone were to walk thru the doors and inquire about the training, I'd tell them what I could and refer them to the head inst. I can't control who comes to the school and who leaves the school. I can tell them how the training is done and whats expected. Its really up to them. Do they want to spend their money on quality instruction or spend it at a place that doesn't give a crap about the quality, as long as they promise a BB in 2 yrs.


Many people clearly view MA as a form of babysitting for the kids, and a set of awards and trophies for them to use in showing off to the neighbors what great kids they have. Their values are not the same as yours, which is why they choose the McDojo. If the McDojo's suddenly vanished, I don't suspect that the parents would change their values suddenly.

Thats the way I viewed the 4yo classes when I taught, as babysitting. Some parents actually stayed, asked questions and were and active part of their childs learning. Others...I usually only saw them in passing, as they'd drop the kid off, and wait outside when it was time to pick them up. Sometimes when I had to tell the parent something, I'd have to have the child go out and tell the parent to come in, which was like pulling teeth. God forbid they support their child. And keep in mind...it was those same parents that were the first to complain when their kid wasn't moving up.




Got it. Well, I've been hit hard enough to drop me, and I didn't cry, but I did say 'ow' and a bunch of not nice words (to myself). And I hurt my knee badly enough at one point that I could not train for awhile. So I didn't.

I injured my knee, due to someone else, and I was out of training for quite some time. It sucked, and I was walking like I was 90. LOL. I've had the wind knocked out of me, been hit where I thought I was going out, bumps, bruises and hit in the nose more times than I'd like to remember. Fortunately never a break though. :)




I'm with you on that. But getting back to kids in McDojos and parents of those kids - they don't want that. So they don't go for it. I don't see that changing.

They just want what I said in another post....a BB for their kid in 2yrs. Somehow the BB has this magical power. Guess I missed that in my training. LOL. Seriously though...I dont see anything changing either, sad as it may be, and I'm not looking for a solution, as there probably is none.

[Omar B]

This is one of the reasons I love my Hanshi so much. He's got a full time job, he's got rid of the dojo around a year after I got BB (one of my reasons for moving from Seido to Kyokushin for a few years) and we lost touch to focus on his profession. Now we are great friends and he teaches at his house who he wants, not for money, but for the art. His only students are his 2 children (who were instructors already when I was learning) and his wife.

Karate for the love of the art, not for financial gain, that's what it's all about. Backyard and garage dojos where the training's tough and you don't have to answer to anyone. That's the answer, leave the McDojos to the ones who want to teach children and deal with the parents and their BS, do it like Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, Bruce Lee, Ed Parker did back in the day, small private training groups.

[MJS]

This is one of the reasons I love my Hanshi so much. He's got a full time job, he's got rid of the dojo around a year after I got BB and we lost touch to focus on his profession. Now we are great friends and he teaches at his house who he wants, not for money, but for the art. His only students are his 2 children (who were instructors already when I was learning) and his wife.

Karate for the love of the art, not for financial gain, that's what it's all about. Backyard and garage dojos where the training's tough and you don't have to answer to anyone. That's the answer, leave the McDojos to the ones who want to teach children and deal with the parents and their BS, do it like Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, Bruce Lee, Ed Parker did back in the day, small private training groups.

What a great post! I couldn't agree more! I too, have had some awesome workouts that were conducted in a garage or backyard. A handful of people, who aren't there for rank or title, belts or any BS. Just some good ol' hard training. Nobody ran away to seek out a lawyer if there was an injury.

As for the 2nd part of your post...agreed again. I teach and train because I love it.

[Nolerama]

I see this concern come up a lot. Especially Omar's point of kids needing validation, so the dojo owner gives them belts.

Are there any MA schools out there that are more sportive and rate the kids on performance? I mean, if I had kids, that's where I'd send them.

It's like any school (from a St. Louis perspective- city teachers, please pardon me)... You can send the kids to a public school, and they can get an "education" meaning they went through the motions... Or you can send them to private school, and they get a better one by having more competition among their ranks and better instruction (generally speaking).

Ultimately, it's the consumer's right to choose. If a parent wants their kid to add BB trophies on their wall, then it's their choice. If parents want their kid to properly learn an art, then that particular child will become better educated than his McDojo peers, over the same amount of time, but with less accolade.

[Jenna]

These are just my thoughts directed at nobody! And I would split my viewpoint in two directions..

On the one hand I think that the arts as I behold them today are soft; perhaps feminised. I think when I began, the arts were male and adult -centric and so I think there were certain prerequisites of "toughness" if you will, and also certain expectations of practitioners regardless of their sex, age or physical condition [do not whinge bout it unless you are busted bad or falling down in agony]. And so now the arts are more open to everyone and maybe those same standards are no longer applicable [or certainly no longer applied].

I do not know if that is better or worse?? I think as a female in and around boxing since childhood and MA from the 1990s, having to fit myself into this predominantly adult male arena is an exercise in confidence and perhaps physical toughness still, that is not I think what women today seek nor parents of younger children, nor many of the younger guys unaccustomed to physical effort and stress. And so the arts surely move with the new demands? Else there will be nobody to do carry any legacy of any kind??

And but on the other hand, none of this irritates me so much as some of you guys I think because how I do my art is how I do it, irrespective of what the general state of MA affars, or the consensus among the MA community might be. Further, my rank is a mere token and is in actual fact, quite irrelevant should I ever be called upon again to use the knowledge therein. Also, I would not compare myself to a child of same grade and because that is a child, and children have children's grades corresponding to their physical abilities [as separate from those of adults] yes? There is not a comparison to be made.

Yes I think our culture is very goals-oriented and this has of course trickled through into MA, particularly I think when organisations are of a commercial nature and have accounts to reckon. Yet surely no matter how we might rue the loss of quality or of the old standards, none of that prevents any of us from practicing our arts as we wish?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Omar B]

I wouldnt call it feminization. I think it started with Jhoon Rhee introducing all the saftey gear making every kid able to copy their heroes Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, etc. Kids want to be like their idols (heck, I stared karate because of Batman so I'm non to talk). Problem comes when kids want to learn how to fly through the air and spin like a top, just like the Power Rangers, rather than spending 6 months to a year at white belt learning how to stand properly.

I get so jealous reading old black belt magazines (since they are all up on Google books) about those full contact days when Chuck had his team, Parker had his team and MA had such a high standard. Hard to find a good, private group though, heck for a while a local TKD instructor and I worked out every morning at the local park.

[MJS]

I see this concern come up a lot. Especially Omar's point of kids needing validation, so the dojo owner gives them belts.

I wonder though..do those same parents expect their child to actually be capable of defending themselves? As I've said, the ma's dont make you Superman, but one would think that if you've trained hard, hard being the key word, that you'd stand a better chance, the odds would be more in your favor, so to speak. Imagine the look on the parents face, when Johnny gets his ass kicked in the school yard, and they run to the inst. at the McDojo, demanding a refund, because he should have been teaching them skills that worked. IMO, I think there would be satisfaction just knowing that you're getting something for your hard work, not something thats just handed to you. Thats the problem...so many are used to being spoon fed, they know no other way.

Enrolling in the McDojo: $90/month
Enrolling in the "Masters Program" which is a sure shot 2yr BB program: $1200
Seeing the look on the parents face when Johnny gets his ass kicked: Priceless! :D


Are there any MA schools out there that are more sportive and rate the kids on performance? I mean, if I had kids, that's where I'd send them.

Sure, there're lots of them.


It's like any school (from a St. Louis perspective- city teachers, please pardon me)... You can send the kids to a public school, and they can get an "education" meaning they went through the motions... Or you can send them to private school, and they get a better one by having more competition among their ranks and better instruction (generally speaking).

Ultimately, it's the consumer's right to choose. If a parent wants their kid to add BB trophies on their wall, then it's their choice. If parents want their kid to properly learn an art, then that particular child will become better educated than his McDojo peers, over the same amount of time, but with less accolade.

Hopefully, there will always be parents that are smart enough to see thru the McDojo, fries and a coke with the black belt program, and go to schools that put quality over quantity.

[Jaspthecat]

MJS:

You have re-affirmed for me why I no longer bother going for rank and belts.

Far as I'm concerned they don't mean s**t if they are being given out for the wrong reasons.

I gauge ability on whether you can whoop me in the ring not on the arbitary colour of your belt / sash.

With respect to contact and injury, I feel sorry for you guys in the US, it seems far more litigatious over there than here in the UK. Problem is, I see the UK going the same way. I think it should be made clear to students (and parents) that MA can be a contact sport and there may be bumps and grazes on the way. If you do get injured (despite it being a controlled environment) then just suck it up and quit your crying.

[Xinglu]

At the dojo I trained at growing up, if you were under 18 - no BB. It didn't matter how good you were, there needed to be a certain level of emotional maturity to go along with it, so 18 was the min. age at which a BB could be earned. They are, to the best of my knowledge, still upholding that standard. There, a BB still means something.

That was my upbringing in MA, and I'm right there with you beating my head into the wall when children are promoted to BB. Bottom line, a BB should be able to control and dominate the fight of any lesser rank regardless of age. I've yet to meet a 12 y/o who can dominate and control even an adult yellow belt.

[Omar B]

I remember the first time I saw a child black belt, I was at a tournament and it was the first time I saw karate outside my own dojo. All the different uniforms and colors was a bit overwhelming, but seeing a kid who I was without a doubt older than wearing a BB shocked the crap out of me. Up on till that point I didn't know it was possible because it just didn't work that way where I came from.

Huge capitalist I am I still believe karate (as well as most MA) are better served outside of a money making structure. Get together with a couple senior students from your school (even the brown belts) and from other schools too, figure out who's got a private back yard with a good fence and soft grass, and start getting deep into what the art is about. You can't fully get into your meditation zone and work out with a 1 hour class. Nor can you get assigned those crazy tasks like when my Hanshi says "1000 or every kick on both sides." Know how long it takes to do 1000 front snap kicks with perfect form? Then the roundhouses, side kick, hook kick, crescent kick, back kick, etc, then change sides? The money based 1 or 2 hour structure of class in the modern dojo severely hampers the art in itself.

[artFling]

I think I want both. I want to train hard. I expect to get hurt from time to time and I have.

But I also want one day to tie a black belt around my waist (purple now). I do not know if I'll make it because at the age of 46 I have rapidly progressing arthritis. I'm working with a skilled karate instructor who works with me. He helps me modify where I need. Still one day, I want to have a legitimate black belt. And that means something to me. If my physical condition keeps me from it, I'll be very disappointed. Very. But I won't tie it on, unless I have the requisite skills. Because it means something to me. I want to know that in my instructor's eyes at the very least, I earned and legitimately hold the rank of BB.

[ralphmcpherson]

I think it comes down also to what people want out of martial arts these days. I did martial arts very briefly 25 years ago and most people did MA to learn how to fight , how to defend themselves etc. I started back in martial arts in my 30's and realise that a huge percentage of people doing MA have no interest whatsoever in "learning how to fight" , in fact most people I speak to have started in the arts to get fit , healthy , strong , flexible etc. I know this is the case for me , I havent been in a fight for 20 years so I dont see learning how to fight as a priority of mine. With more people joining up for the fitness reasons the whole outlook on MA has changed.

[Milt G.]

Hello,

Society, by and large, is less tolerant of "discomfort" then it once was. Most students want to learn "martial arts" with the least bit of pain and discomfort possible. Many will not stay if they perceive they are being "hurt". Even though the teaching premise of the arts has the potential to hurt or injure others.

Part of the current commercial school "model" is to teach with as little pain and discomfort possible. Your average student these days will not continue to come to class if hurt consistantly. To stay in business you have to keep students. You keep more students if you do not hurt them. There are still those students that do not mind some pain and bruising. Sadly, they have become the minority. I think as teachers we should give the students what they want, within reason, on an individual basis. You can be a little "rougher" with those that do not mind. However the "rougher" students should not be paired with the ones that do not appreciate that style of training. Sometimes hard to achieve a balance there, so the best "default" is to less rough, generally.

All this said without mentioning the "liability" aspect. I believe liability is the REAL reason the training methods have changed over the years. We live in a sue happy environment. One in which you can easily spend thousands of dollars defending your innocence. A truly sad state of affairs. :( Best to not be "on the radar" at all. You do that by dialing back your training and teaching methods. No longer will a "waiver", words or a handshake save you from the "litigation mongers". The problem is our society in general, of late.

I am sorry about this, but that is what we have to work with, in most cases, these days.

Good topic. Thank you.
Milt G.

[just2kicku]

Alright, I'm gonna chime in with my $.02.

I feel that society as whole has gotten too soft.

When I started, if as a kid you got your face broke, too bad. You rubbed some dirt on it and kept fighting. You dared not cry, because your parents would knock the **** out of you and give you something to cry about. Back then, parents pushed their kids, made sure they practiced and knew what they were supposed to do.

Fast forward to today, with "positive reinforcement" and time outs, instead of the good old fashioned ass whooping that one used to get when I was a kid, and you have the perfect scenario for the Mcdojo. A non contact, (just like at home) system that rewards kids with a belt for learning how to tie their damn shoes.

Now I'm not saying that you should take it to the other extreme either, but I think a little blood in the dojo is a good thing. I also think if parents would quit babying their kids, and not threaten to sue because Johnny got cut, then they would have tougher kids.

[The Last Legionary]

Train old school.
Get sued by mommy.
Get fired for not being able to work.
Have your sanity questioned by those who don't think you're sane.

[Jenna]

Train old school.
Get sued by mommy.
Get fired for not being able to work.
Have your sanity questioned by those who don't think you're sane.
Method Man? No wait.. I got it.. RZA?? MC Hammer? Haha I am just joking with you, that is one very concise response. Jenna x

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

For me part of the answer is compartmentalization.

Our regular class as a rule does not allow anyone under 18 in (There can be exceptions if the youngster is family to one our students or associates.)

We tell people right up front that fighting hurts and so does training to fight, no way around it if they actually want to learn to take care of themselves in a violent encounter.

We are polite and friendly but we make it clear that you need to prove yourself to us not the other way around. You either want it or not it's a semi eleiteist attitude. (Seeing as our old school was 90% Military and half of those were Spec Ops, we see the value in that mindset as long as you are not rude to people.)

We would rather have 4 people on the mats who train hard and realisticall and want to be there then 20 who go through the motions half assedly while patting themselves on the back.

I also run a Kidz Martial Arts Club at the gym I work at but I do some things differently.

First off I dont teach our style per say, it's a combo of things I have learned throughout my life. There are techniques from Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Jujutsu, Judo ect. The idea is to give the kids a broad expouser to the arts so that they can see for themselves what elements of the arts they like and so if they want to delve deeper into say kicking and puinching, they might go into karate as they age, another into Judo and some might want to join my regular class.

Right now I have no real ranks other than a couple of the older kids are refered top as Centurions and the little ones are all Legeonaries (Yes I'm a history nut) and I say this with a smile. The "Centurians" look out and help the younger kids, they leanr to act as an example, this I feel is good for building charachter.

I want them to learn real attributes for future study and to feel that they dont need some worthless belt given to them for validation. Their validation is "Your getting really good at that!" " Great Job!" "Now that's being a leader!"

Rule #1 Listen to Sensei, it's not because I know all there is to know, it's because I whant you all to learn and be safe and I have a plan to do that.

Rule #2 Be good to each other, You are here to learn from each other. You are all a team.

Rule #3 Martial arts are for protecting youraself, others and what is right in life, never to bully. We teach you real techniques here, let other kids pretend to be Power Rangers or Jedi Knights at martial arts class

Rule #4 Fighting Hurts, unless you are really hurt, suck it up and train.

[Omar B]

It's like my dad always says, "You play pool up to match your opponent." It's made painfully clear in many cases, if someone's playing against you in whatever sport a crap opponent brings nothing to the table in terms of skill, strategy or talent. While it's the reverse for someone with skill. Having said that, the lowering of standards, the handing out of belts, the padding, just lowers the standard of martial arts across the board.

When I was learning we didn't use padding, we learned control. Stop the kick before making contact, light contact, or pushing through the target. It's a concept that's almost lost, kids can't measure distance, they can't pull back on a strike if Sensei yell "Stop." Subtleties of form and muscle control are lost, heck, even a missile can be aborted.

[Zero]

I, like many others I'm sure, hear you loud and clear MJS. I've also been in MA for over 20 years now and have trained and competed in judo, TKD and karate.

A while back a colleague heard Itrained in karate and freestyle. She then said, "Oh my daughter's a blackbelt" with this kind of gleamingly proud smile. I almost laughed in her face, given her kid is not even in high school yet!

Having kicked the stuffing out of more BBs and dans than I can remember and also being served myself by fighters in different styles with no senior belt or colour system, I've concluded that belts in general don't mean a monkey's brass razzoo (whatever that means) for a rating of ability.

Probably the best all over club was my one back home in goju ryu. Run by a cop (4th dan) and a huge wrestler/bouncer and the head sensei who owned a store near by. They ran the dojo afterwork for the love of the art and for mixing it up and training others of a like mind. Subs were $10 per month to cover rent of the hall and the odd new boxing bag.
Like Omar, we would also go around to the sensei's house and work out and train on his car pad. Protection was nothing but a mouth guard and a groin guard if you wanted and it ranged from bare fists to heavy gloves depending on the type of training. Blood on the floor and all that.

Sometimes I'd come home on a Friday night from training and have to soak in a hot bath til almost midnight before I could move and go out on the town, those were the days.

Thing is though, the head sensei took kids and intermediate classes when we worked alongside him doing competition sparring/training and the like. We also were asked to mix it up with the kids for their benefit; they never had any more preotective gear, we just used that thing called "control".

The seniors and older practitioners gave and got given it to the level they were comfortable with, nothing more.

I've actually switched to muay thai and mma as I have found it hard recently to find a karate club or style that competes and trains allowing head strikes with the fist/hand, I've tried shotokan, goju ryu and kyokoshin here. It's all kyokoshin-like rules. Which is fine and hard-core but I like to be able to hit someone in the face/head when I'm fighting in tournaments as this is what I do on the street if needed. Hell, I know generally a leg attack to the head is slower than a fist (although Bill Wallace would disagree) but a shin to the side of the head opens up the old mellon a helluva lot more than one normal punch!!

So maybe MJS, you and those like minded gotta stick to the old school type dojos and if inclined send your kids there. The McDs are for the main stream couscous eating parents that need someone to babysit the kids.

[ap Oweyn]

I suppose this will be one of those 'hot' topics, one that will be a NHB sort of thread, however, while it no doubt will get hot, feelings will get hurt, keep in mind....a) I intend to keep all of my posts well within the rules, although I can't speak for others, I'm hoping they do the same, b) some tender hearts will get hurt, no doubt. Part of being in the arts, and on a forum, is to have a thick skin. If the words of some on the net offend you, God help you in the real world. That being said....here goes......

I've been in the arts for a bit over 20yrs now. I didn't know much when I started, but I've had the chance to see quite a bit, fastforwarding to present time. I've read books, articles, spoke with various people...all of which has shown the same thing, that the arts have really changed from past to what we see today. Back in the day it was nothing to get banged up, whereas today, the slightest bit of contact, and people cry foul, because their glass child got hurt or hit too hard. Better clear the sidewalks for the campout of lawyers. Back in the day, the focus was on learning, which took time, lots of time, whereas today, if Johnny isn't keeping up with Joey, God forbid, and he doesnt get promoted at the same time, God forbid we have Johnny wait until he's old enough for black belt, instead of giving it to him when he's 7.

Is that what the arts have come to today? A bunch of take my dough dojos, who promote kids who aren't old enough to drive yet? Seems like the mentality is, as long as the kid shows up to class, can compete well, and knows his stuff, who gives a rats ass if he's 7 and a 1st degree, or 12 and a 3rd degree. If thats what it comes down to today, thats sad and very pathetic!

People run around saying, "Well, Master so and so thinks Joey looks good so he is deserving of that 4th degree....even though he's only 12." Well, people must be living with blinders on, because if thats what they think, they're kidding themselves. I mean really, if you were paying GM or Master X, X number of dollars, of course they're going to promote the kid. They're getting paid, do you really think they give a **** about Joey?

Thank God there are still schools around today, to counter the McDojos that are so rampant today. Schools that put quality over quantity and dont cater to the Jones', who think it's all about them, and who feel that their 8yo should be a 2nd degree.

Its sad, and its a joke. And frankly, I'd be ashamed to admit that my kid is that young and has that rank.

Enough ranting from me for now.. :)....I'm sure there're others who will agree and those that disagree. I just wonder, how people can sleep at night, knowing that their kid is a laughing stock amongst other martial artists...those who bust their ass on the mat, those who have put in the blood, sweat and tears into training, those who dont run and cry when they get hit.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Most of your complaints revolve around kids' standards being "too soft." And then you say that, "in the good old days," everyone banged and they were generally tougher.

Kids weren't. Not really. I've been involved in this stuff for 26 years myself. And we weren't tougher. Kids got bored, frustrated, upset, and so on. That's got exactly sod all to do with martial arts and everything to do with being a kid.

So when you say that people banged, I'm guessing you're referring to the adults, or at least young adults. In which case, I'd say there's no way they're softer now. Say what you will about the advent of MMA. But it seems clear to me that the "light brush" style of sparring you mentioned is more a relic of the 1990s than an indication of today. Today, more people want to gear up and pummel one another. I don't know the last time I heard any noise about a fighter on the point circuit. But MMA guys, you hear about all the time, even at the amateur level. And those guys are working very hard at conditioning and contact sparring. Doesn't seem "soft" to me.

As for children being taken seriously while wearing black belts, I don't see why they (or their parents) should be particularly embarrassed. Frankly, I think it's the people who take that so seriously who ought to be embarrassed. For their absolute inability (or unwillingness) to put things in perspective. I have a black belt. And the day that I feel my achievement is cheapened because some 10-year-old also has one is the day I need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask myself what I've been up to for the past 26 years. The black belt is a metaphor for a process. The kids' process is different from mine. And that's fine. The accomplishments in that process are different. Doesn't make them easier or more trivial. And it certainly doesn't make those kids less deserving of acknowledgment for their efforts.

Hell, as adults, it seems to me we ought to be less fretful about the black belt. Yet, most of the time, I hear adults wanting to take away or reduce the value of the black belt a kid wears. Not to give the kid a more realistic sense of his abilities, but so as not to demean the value of the belt the adult is wearing. Those priorities seem very confused to me.

We should give children a realistic appraisal of what it means to have their black belts. It's our fault for building it up into some sort of superpower in the first place. We spend years touting this thing as the be all, end all. Then we get all bent out of shape because they want one. It's absurd.

A black belt is a marker. And it's certainly not the last one they'll need. Kids OR adults. But that's the one we all talk about like the second coming, so that's the one everyone fixates on.

I think it's time to get over it. Use it as a reference point. But don't dangle it in front of kids like a tasty treat and then yank it away, proclaiming "you're not old and mature enough to get this."

A kid wearing a black belt is a kid. Bottom line. If that kid thinks he can "take" an adult, he needs an education. But they didn't write the hype. We did.


Stuart

[Daniel Sullivan]

I suppose this will be one of those 'hot' topics, one that will be a NHB sort of thread, however, while it no doubt will get hot, feelings will get hurt, keep in mind....a) I intend to keep all of my posts well within the rules, although I can't speak for others, I'm hoping they do the same, b) some tender hearts will get hurt, no doubt. Part of being in the arts, and on a forum, is to have a thick skin. If the words of some on the net offend you, God help you in the real world. That being said....here goes......

I've been in the arts for a bit over 20yrs now. I didn't know much when I started, but I've had the chance to see quite a bit, fastforwarding to present time. I've read books, articles, spoke with various people...all of which has shown the same thing, that the arts have really changed from past to what we see today. Back in the day it was nothing to get banged up, whereas today, the slightest bit of contact, and people cry foul, because their glass child got hurt or hit too hard. Better clear the sidewalks for the campout of lawyers. Back in the day, the focus was on learning, which took time, lots of time, whereas today, if Johnny isn't keeping up with Joey, God forbid, and he doesnt get promoted at the same time, God forbid we have Johnny wait until he's old enough for black belt, instead of giving it to him when he's 7.

Is that what the arts have come to today? A bunch of take my dough dojos, who promote kids who aren't old enough to drive yet? Seems like the mentality is, as long as the kid shows up to class, can compete well, and knows his stuff, who gives a rats ass if he's 7 and a 1st degree, or 12 and a 3rd degree. If thats what it comes down to today, thats sad and very pathetic!

People run around saying, "Well, Master so and so thinks Joey looks good so he is deserving of that 4th degree....even though he's only 12." Well, people must be living with blinders on, because if thats what they think, they're kidding themselves. I mean really, if you were paying GM or Master X, X number of dollars, of course they're going to promote the kid. They're getting paid, do you really think they give a **** about Joey?

Thank God there are still schools around today, to counter the McDojos that are so rampant today. Schools that put quality over quantity and dont cater to the Jones', who think it's all about them, and who feel that their 8yo should be a 2nd degree.

Its sad, and its a joke. And frankly, I'd be ashamed to admit that my kid is that young and has that rank.

Enough ranting from me for now.. :)....I'm sure there're others who will agree and those that disagree. I just wonder, how people can sleep at night, knowing that their kid is a laughing stock amongst other martial artists...those who bust their ass on the mat, those who have put in the blood, sweat and tears into training, those who dont run and cry when they get hit.
The big change came in the eighties.

Dojo owners saw the potential market in people looking to get into shape but not wanting to go to the gym out of embarrassment or just not liking the environment.

Along the same lines, by that time, the children's market already existed, but it was taken to new heights. Dojo owners figured out that if they offered an after school program with pick up and drop off, they were able to get more students because they had addressed a need in the customer's mind.

The big conflict is this: people who want to get into shape just want to get into shape and learn some techniques that may be helpful if they are mugged. In their mind, it is the learning the of the technique, not the hard practice, that makes them safe. But the main reason that they joined was that they could get into shape in an environment that was not chock full of muscle men and where they did not have to wear shorts or clothing that revealed how out of shape they truly were.

And people who have their kids in martial arts have them there to make them better kids, not better fighters. They were drawn in by things like, "Discipline, self control, courtesy" that are splashed all over the literature. Let us not forget the promise of a healthier kid and possibly better grades in school due to the aforementioned dicipline and self control. They want their kids in an environment where postitive values are reinforced and where their kid can get exercise while they are still at work.

Neither group really wants to be good fighters.

By appealing to these two groups, especially the children's market, the schools have on the one hand, added to their bottom line and offered a service that was previously not available. On the other hand, classes to accomodate these two groups took over the schools. Why? Because there are a lot more people who want a nice benefit to enrich their kids and out of shape adults than there are people that are really serious about self defense or being really proficient in a martial art.

Collectively, school owners did what any sensible business owner would do: address the market and focus on the programs that will most effectively pay the mortgage.

This is a problem that, quite honestly, we can only blame on ourselves.

With regards to the children especially, the classes were never clearly differentiated from the serious martial arts class. Because of this, mom and dad do expect that their child will earn a black belt.

And we, collectively allowed this. As an industry, we do not have the guts to tell mom and dad that their kid needs to be either an adult or an MA Mozart to get a black belt. We are afraid that they will leave and go to someone who will give their eight year old a BB. And that someone is just down the road and is every bit as fearful of losing business as the first school, and will thus furnish the BB to children.

As an industry, we put the emphasis on the black belt. Mom and dad may not be able to afford five to six years of class. Also, kids (and many adults) often lose interest after about two years, so in order to retain the students for more than a year and to capture every test fee from each customer, time to black belt has pretty much been set at eighteen months to two years.

Really, the only answer is to clearly delineate the childrens' class and fitness classes from the full on martial art class and deemphasize the black belt.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Most of your complaints revolve around kids' standards being "too soft." And then you say that, "in the good old days," everyone banged and they were generally tougher.

Kids weren't. Not really. I've been involved in this stuff for 26 years myself. And we weren't tougher. Kids got bored, frustrated, upset, and so on. That's got exactly sod all to do with martial arts and everything to do with being a kid.

So when you say that people banged, I'm guessing you're referring to the adults, or at least young adults. In which case, I'd say there's no way they're softer now. Say what you will about the advent of MMA. But it seems clear to me that the "light brush" style of sparring you mentioned is more a relic of the 1990s than an indication of today. Today, more people want to gear up and pummel one another. I don't know the last time I heard any noise about a fighter on the point circuit. But MMA guys, you hear about all the time, even at the amateur level. And those guys are working very hard at conditioning and contact sparring. Doesn't seem "soft" to me.

As for children being taken seriously while wearing black belts, I don't see why they (or their parents) should be particularly embarrassed. Frankly, I think it's the people who take that so seriously who ought to be embarrassed. For their absolute inability (or unwillingness) to put things in perspective. I have a black belt. And the day that I feel my achievement is cheapened because some 10-year-old also has one is the day I need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask myself what I've been up to for the past 26 years. The black belt is a metaphor for a process. The kids' process is different from mine. And that's fine. The accomplishments in that process are different. Doesn't make them easier or more trivial. And it certainly doesn't make those kids less deserving of acknowledgment for their efforts.

Hell, as adults, it seems to me we ought to be less fretful about the black belt. Yet, most of the time, I hear adults wanting to take away or reduce the value of the black belt a kid wears. Not to give the kid a more realistic sense of his abilities, but so as not to demean the value of the belt the adult is wearing. Those priorities seem very confused to me.

We should give children a realistic appraisal of what it means to have their black belts. It's our fault for building it up into some sort of superpower in the first place. We spend years touting this thing as the be all, end all. Then we get all bent out of shape because they want one. It's absurd.

A black belt is a marker. And it's certainly not the last one they'll need. Kids OR adults. But that's the one we all talk about like the second coming, so that's the one everyone fixates on.

I think it's time to get over it. Use it as a reference point. But don't dangle it in front of kids like a tasty treat and then yank it away, proclaiming "you're not old and mature enough to get this."

A kid wearing a black belt is a kid. Bottom line. If that kid thinks he can "take" an adult, he needs an education. But they didn't write the hype. We did.


Stuart
Amen, brother!!

Daniel

[Zero]

That ap Owen dude kinda had a good counter-rant there!

[JDenver]

Same post from me as everything regarding this generation of kids -

-ENTITLEMENT-

They whine when things seem 'unfair'. They're taught that everyone is always equal in all things. Nothing can be done to challenge them or to ask that they work harder and do better. They take no responsibility for their own actions causing them any problems or how what they do is a barrier to their success. They don't wanna work for anything. They deserve whatever they want. If they want it then they should get it, especially if they're paying money for it.

It applies not just to MA, but every avenue of young adult ambition now of days.

[Daniel Sullivan]

And who's fault is it that today's kids have an entitlement mentality?

It did not just happen.

Today's kids watched mom and dad as they proudly verbally abused every salesman they ever dealt with until they got the price that they "were entitled to."

Today's kids also watched mom and dad go to big box stores to get the better prices that they felt "entitled" to, putting small businesses and domestic manufacture out of business by doing so, but not caring one bit, happilly buying made in China while hypicritically driving to Wal Mart with a "Buy American" bumper sticker on the back of their car.

Today's kids watched as our corporate executives moved the manufacture of American products to China and other countries all to enable themselves to make that bigger bonus that they felt "entitled" to have, while closing down American factories and putting hundreds and sometimes thousands of people out of work.

Today's kids drank in the television ads that adults produced that told them that they were "entitled" to an number of things. They watched as our government produced "entitlement" programs and told the public that they were "entitled" to this, that and the other so that they could obtain votes.

Today's kids watched mom and dad get themselves up to their eyeballs in credit card debt in order to maintain a lifestyle that they could not afford on the money that they made.

Today's kids watched mom and dad make idiot housing purchases, purchases that Fannie May said that they were "entitled" to, getting into more home than they could afford with adjustable rate mortgages and other junk programs the bankers offered all to have a McMansion when they should have purchased a rambler. They also watched our bankers and real estate agents push and promote these idiot purchases. Mom and dad happily bought into it against all common sense, and together, Mom, Dad, the real eastate agents, and the bankers collapsed the economy.

They watched our government officials and corporate leaders demonstrate that they felt "entitled" to give themselves hefty raises and bonuses while the rest of the country struggled with unemployment. They have watched adult lawyers take frivolous lawsuits to absurdity because their clients are "entitled" to that money.

Today's kids have watched our government exercise deficit spending for decades in order to fund their own pet entitlements.

Finally, today's kids get to watch mom and dad whine and cry about how our country is in debt, that they are up to their eyeballs in credit card debt, that they are out of work, and that nothing is made here anymore, completely ignorant of the fact that they facilitated and rubber stamped it all because they were "entitled" to have it. So entitled that they ruined our country in the process.

Todays generation of kids has an entitlement mentality because it is what they were taught to to have. We cannot blame them for paying attention to the lesson. Shame on us for doing so.

Daniel

[Omar B]

Wow, I love this topic.

Daniel, great points on the previous page. You've made some valid points about the mindset of someone doing MA for fitness.

Makes me think of my motivation and early years in karate. I started at 5 so it was about hero worship on my part. My Sensei was rough, old school, was in Kyokushin with Nakamura and joined Seido when he left so I guess as rough as it was as a kid I didn't know any different. My parents are old school about discipline and the class was an after-school activity at an Anglican Private School so I guess discipline permeated my whole existence. So maybe kids today don't have type of parents and schooling I and in many cases you guys had growing up in the '80's (or earlier for some).

As for the adults joining just to get fit and learn a few moves. Something I didnt experience myself. Just never had many classes with adults because I was in a Prep school and by the time I had my BB I was 16 and in that specific class at the real dojo. People in BB classes usually by then have a pretty well formed idea of why they are there and why they stayed that long and it's never usually fitness I find, nor is it usually simply fighting. I know I don't do it for fighting.

[Xinglu]

I don't think it cheapens anyone's achievement other than the kids. I see it as a way of setting the child up for failure. That is what frustrates me, is seeing the children think it means something it doesn't. That leads to a whole host of related problems.

For that - I blame the instructors that lead them to believe these things and the parents for reenforcing it. It frustrates me because those children that don't get corrected grow up and perpetuate the "hype" as Stuart called it.

[pete]

i guess i just don't get it, with all this ranting and raving???

how is it exactly that what a kid does or wears in a children's class have anything to do with how one trains as an adult?

pete

[Xinglu]

Why should there be a kids class? I never had one growing up it was just class. I was held to the same expectations as everyone else, if that meant I spent an extended time at a belt level, that's what it meant. I was't the only kid either, there were a lot of them. None of use were deluded into thinking that time = grade, rather were collectively agreed that skill, knowledge, and mindset = grade. Because that is what we were taught. Furthermore, we didn't lose interest because we progressed slowly and at a snails pace compared to adults, but we worked and trained harder.

I see kids today at many schools that treat any rank under BB as "all the same," "meaningless," or otherwise "second-class." I do think that attitude has cheapened their experience and lessons at those levels. Now, those kids learned that from someone, my guess, the instructor. Who in turn learned it from their instructor.

So the root of the problem IMHO is the attitude surrounding it all.

[JDenver]

And who's fault is it that today's kids have an entitlement mentality?

It did not just happen.

Today's kids ...............

Daniel

Agreed with all.

I'm pointing out something around entitlement without all of the factors, which I agree with.

Besides, I am a teacher, and young adults DO get it, and DO have to take responsibility for their own actions. It takes time, but you can break them out of entitlement.

[ap Oweyn]

I don't think it cheapens anyone's achievement other than the kids. I see it as a way of setting the child up for failure. That is what frustrates me, is seeing the children think it means something it doesn't. That leads to a whole host of related problems.

Why? How have they failed? Giving away a black belt is one thing. But scaling the challenges of a child attaining a black belt is entirely another.

The fact that they couldn't then take out an adult attacker is our failure to provide them with a realistic sense of their abilities. But how does recognizing their dedication, practice, discipline, and stick-to-it-tiveness lead to failure?

At its most basic level, any belt grading system is simply a structured setup of goal setting and reward. Provided we're honest with them about what the goals are and what the rewards mean, I fail to see how giving them recognition results in failure.


For that - I blame the instructors that lead them to believe these things and the parents for reenforcing it. It frustrates me because those children that don't get corrected grow up and perpetuate the "hype" as Stuart called it.

Well, we all reinforce it. This thread reinforces it. We tell them the black belt is the golden apple. And then we turn around and tell them not to want it until they're older. Makes no sense.

If ability is the actual golden apple, then kids should be given a frank and realistic talk about their abilities, appropriately scaled. And we should all stop yammering on about how awesome the black belt is.

I don't mean to sound combative. I just think we spend way too much time mystifying this stuff, fixating on symbols, and obscuring what would be a whole lot more useful if we were just clearer about it.

No offense intended, everyone.


Stuart

[Em MacIntosh]

Non-profit has never failed me for quality of instruction. Depending on the rent, I can't see paying more than $45-$60/month for instruction. The less I pay, the more I get for what I pay, I've found.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why should there be a kids class?
There are a lot of very good reasons for a kids class. The fact that they were not widely available or available at all when you and I started out does not mean that the idea lacks merit. The big issue is the implementation; the program succeeds or fails on how it is implemented. Note: I do not mean financial success. Plenty of financially successful kids progams are abject failures in terms of actually teaching the students.

I am of the opinion that school age kids should not be wearing black belts. I have yet to see a school that give the same, identical test to kids. Either the test itself is lighter or the grading of the test is weighted differently to account for the kid being eight. Either way, the kid does not have to meet the same standards as an adult.

I have seen middle school students that are definitely BB material. They are the exception, but there are a few. I do not consider high school students kids in terms of physical activity; they should get stuck into the adult class straight away.

As far as school age kids, a well developed kids program that focuses on teaching the basics and developing the child is fine. There just does not need to be a black belt issued just because a child can do eight forms and has been showing up for two years.

Daniel

[Xinglu]

As far as school age kids, a well developed kids program that focuses on teaching the basics and developing the child is fine. There just does not need to be a black belt issued just because a child can do eight forms and has been showing up for two years. I have no problem with something like this because it does not hand out BB.


Why? How have they failed? Giving away a black belt is one thing. But scaling the challenges of a child attaining a black belt is entirely another.

The fact that they couldn't then take out an adult attacker is our failure to provide them with a realistic sense of their abilities. But how does recognizing their dedication, practice, discipline, and stick-to-it-tiveness lead to failure?

At its most basic level, any belt grading system is simply a structured setup of goal setting and reward. Provided we're honest with them about what the goals are and what the rewards mean, I fail to see how giving them recognition results in failure. Does their skill level match that of any other BB? No. That is the problem, standards exist for a reason and exceptions should not be made because they are young and impatient (or more to the point the parents are impatient). Furthermore, where did I say they failed? I did not, let's not put words in my mouth. I did say they were being set up for failure which implies that their instructors are failing them, not that the kids are failing.




Well, we all reinforce it. This thread reinforces it. We tell them the black belt is the golden apple. And then we turn around and tell them not to want it until they're older. Makes no sense.

If ability is the actual golden apple, then kids should be given a frank and realistic talk about their abilities, appropriately scaled. And we should all stop yammering on about how awesome the black belt is.

I don't mean to sound combative. I just think we spend way too much time mystifying this stuff, fixating on symbols, and obscuring what would be a whole lot more useful if we were just clearer about it.

No offense intended, everyone. None taken.

Golden apple? Hardly. More like upholding standards. A BB implies many things about the holder one of which is skill and ability over Jr. ranks. A BB should be able to control a brown belt when sparring so forth and so on. Period. Memorization of a form techniques and time put in does not make a person worthy of any rank, even if it is a yellow belt. If we make each belt relative to age then we are doing a disservice to those we are making the exceptions for.

Does this perpetuate that a BB is the final step? No. Not even close, but I do assert that BB are like HS diplomas, in which standards are set and to earn it you must be able to apply what you've learned. There are still a great many levels ahead, but now you are considered competent to survive in the world. A 12 y/o BB (heck I've seen 12 y/o 3rd dans) is hardly competent and able to apply their knowledge against a resisting opponent in the real world, and the real world is the adult world.

Belts of any rank should not be used as a pat on the back, they should be earned through blood, sweat, and tears. each rank implies a certain levels of skill and knowledge and the ability to apply it, if that cannot be done then that rank is IMO unearned and was given to them to placate them.

[KELLYG]

I wish that I had started training at 8 years old VS 38 years old. I think that young people are more pliable mentally and physically than an older set. I think that getting up off your axx and doing something anything is better than rotting your brain on TV. From a self defense stand point I would probably have a hard time with an attacker that is a foot taller than me and out ways me by 100 lbs. Does that mean that all the training that I have gone through was for nothing. I think the true measure of self defense for children is how they were to handle themselves among other people of the same size. This is probably where most of there conflict is going to come from. Basically who gives a shxx what belt any one else is wearing anyway. We are taught from the get go that black belt is where you really start learning Martial Arts. I think that kids training in MA and, what they take away from it has a lot more to do with the instructors than anything else.

[ap Oweyn]

Does their skill level match that of any other BB? No. That is the problem, standards exist for a reason and exceptions should not be made because they are young and impatient (or more to the point the parents are impatient). Furthermore, where did I say they failed? I did not, let's not put words in my mouth. I did say they were being set up for failure which implies that their instructors are failing them, not that the kids are failing.

Not my intention to put words in your mouth. Sorry.

There's no global standard for a black belt. I've seen dreadful black belts and dynamite black belts. So, yes, their skill level WILL match that of some other black belts. And it WON'T match that of others. All of which goes to say that a black belt is a terrible measure, globally, of skill. It's a much more useful measure of an individual's progress on a particular path of skill development.

Standards are fine. But let's make them relevant. A black belt shouldn't be sold as a bulletproof vest. Hold children to a standard that applies to them. As adults, I feel like we ought to be able to devise realistic standards for people of that developmental level.

Should it be a black belt? Meh, I don't know. Never put much stock in them personally. Getting one wasn't a transformative experience. And I feel like we ought to stop billing it as such. I woke up the next day fundamentally the same as I was when I went to bed.


Golden apple? Hardly. More like upholding standards. A BB implies many things about the holder one of which is skill and ability over Jr. ranks. A BB should be able to control a brown belt when sparring so forth and so on. Period. Memorization of a form techniques and time put in does not make a person worthy of any rank, even if it is a yellow belt. If we make each belt relative to age then we are doing a disservice to those we are making the exceptions for.

I don't accept that. A black belt ought to be able to control a comparable brown belt, yes. But doing them a disservice by scaling our expectations? I don't think so. If we set appropriate measures, we aren't doing THEM a disservice. Not as much as we do them a disservice by saying "you can't get one of these, so don't aspire to it until you're older."

Any reasoning adult should be able to look at a younger person with a belt and put that belt in context. And we should be teaching younger martial artists to do likewise. We should be teaching them to look at the linebacker with the yellow belt and say to themselves, "I have tools, but I need to be realistic here." That's the relevant insight. Not the belt.


Does this perpetuate that a BB is the final step? No. Not even close, but I do assert that BB are like HS diplomas, in which standards are set and to earn it you must be able to apply what you've learned. There are still a great many levels ahead, but now you are considered competent to survive in the world. A 12 y/o BB (heck I've seen 12 y/o 3rd dans) is hardly competent and able to apply their knowledge against a resisting opponent in the real world, and the real world is the adult world.

We set age-appropriate standards in issuing high school diplomas. We don't tell them they fail high school chemistry because they don't understand polymer processing.


Belts of any rank should not be used as a pat on the back, they should be earned through blood, sweat, and tears. each rank implies a certain levels of skill and knowledge and the ability to apply it, if that cannot be done then that rank is IMO unearned and was given to them to placate them.

Belts should be earned, certainly. But if it's impossible for a student to earn a given belt by this set of standards (i.e., defeating a lower-belted adult), then we should stop presenting that belt as a target. We should stop telling them that they can get one.

Personally, I think that reduces the usefulness of a belt system. Either it should be a useable series of structured goals or it should be done away with, so that everyone is measured precisely on what they can do.

Personally, I don't use a belt system anymore. But if you're going to use one, then I think we need to be up front with students about what's feasible. Because it would be a real misstep to accept tuition from a young student who's expecting to participate in a belt system if we then turn around and say "the standard for completing this system is out of your reach."


Stuart

[MJS]

At the dojo I trained at growing up, if you were under 18 - no BB. It didn't matter how good you were, there needed to be a certain level of emotional maturity to go along with it, so 18 was the min. age at which a BB could be earned. They are, to the best of my knowledge, still upholding that standard. There, a BB still means something.

That was my upbringing in MA, and I'm right there with you beating my head into the wall when children are promoted to BB. Bottom line, a BB should be able to control and dominate the fight of any lesser rank regardless of age. I've yet to meet a 12 y/o who can dominate and control even an adult yellow belt.

Very good points. IMO, I think alot of people seem to be missing what a BB really means. There is so much more than just doing well in competition, and "knowing" the material. As I've said, people can "know" something on the surface, but how well do they really know it? I find it hard, very hard to believe, that a 7yr old or 12yr old would have anywhere near the knowledge that an adult BB would. Yet people in certain arts award them without blinking an eye....and see nothing wrong with it!!!!

[MJS]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Most of your complaints revolve around kids' standards being "too soft." And then you say that, "in the good old days," everyone banged and they were generally tougher.

Kids, adults, I'd say both fit into that category, but I dont see how you're compaing it apples to oranges. I've seen my share of adults who I'd look at and think to myself, "My God, you're a Brown belt and you punch at me like that???"


Kids weren't. Not really. I've been involved in this stuff for 26 years myself. And we weren't tougher. Kids got bored, frustrated, upset, and so on. That's got exactly sod all to do with martial arts and everything to do with being a kid.

Oh, I wouldn't go so far as to put all kids in the same basket. Of course, if a kid isn't mature enough to understand there's more to training than that magical BB, then perhaps they're too young to be training in the first place.


So when you say that people banged, I'm guessing you're referring to the adults, or at least young adults. In which case, I'd say there's no way they're softer now. Say what you will about the advent of MMA. But it seems clear to me that the "light brush" style of sparring you mentioned is more a relic of the 1990s than an indication of today. Today, more people want to gear up and pummel one another. I don't know the last time I heard any noise about a fighter on the point circuit. But MMA guys, you hear about all the time, even at the amateur level. And those guys are working very hard at conditioning and contact sparring. Doesn't seem "soft" to me.

LOL, are you comparing MMA to the typical Karate type class? Dude, thats night and day. And those that banged hard back then, at least the people I know, still hold true to that today. But as I said there are adults today that would fall into the hobbyist category, that are soft.


As for children being taken seriously while wearing black belts, I don't see why they (or their parents) should be particularly embarrassed. Frankly, I think it's the people who take that so seriously who ought to be embarrassed. For their absolute inability (or unwillingness) to put things in perspective. I have a black belt. And the day that I feel my achievement is cheapened because some 10-year-old also has one is the day I need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask myself what I've been up to for the past 26 years. The black belt is a metaphor for a process. The kids' process is different from mine. And that's fine. The accomplishments in that process are different. Doesn't make them easier or more trivial. And it certainly doesn't make those kids less deserving of acknowledgment for their efforts.

So are you saying the value of the BB should be different for the adults and kids? If so, why? Do you feel a 7yr old should be wearing a 2nd degree BB?


Hell, as adults, it seems to me we ought to be less fretful about the black belt. Yet, most of the time, I hear adults wanting to take away or reduce the value of the black belt a kid wears. Not to give the kid a more realistic sense of his abilities, but so as not to demean the value of the belt the adult is wearing. Those priorities seem very confused to me.

We should give children a realistic appraisal of what it means to have their black belts. It's our fault for building it up into some sort of superpower in the first place. We spend years touting this thing as the be all, end all. Then we get all bent out of shape because they want one. It's absurd.

A black belt is a marker. And it's certainly not the last one they'll need. Kids OR adults. But that's the one we all talk about like the second coming, so that's the one everyone fixates on.

I think it's time to get over it. Use it as a reference point. But don't dangle it in front of kids like a tasty treat and then yank it away, proclaiming "you're not old and mature enough to get this."

A kid wearing a black belt is a kid. Bottom line. If that kid thinks he can "take" an adult, he needs an education. But they didn't write the hype. We did.


Stuart

So going by your comment that I underlined, you feel that a young kid should be able to wear a high rank BB? I'd rather see the method that I suggested earlier. You did read that right? Or did you just jump into the thread, and make an assumption off of a few of my posts, without reading all of them?

[MJS]

i don't think it cheapens anyone's achievement other than the kids. I see it as a way of setting the child up for failure. That is what frustrates me, is seeing the children think it means something it doesn't. That leads to a whole host of related problems.


bingo!!!!

[MJS]

i guess i just don't get it, with all this ranting and raving???

how is it exactly that what a kid does or wears in a children's class have anything to do with how one trains as an adult?

pete

Umm...well lets see Pete...if we simply change the people who we're talking about, ie: replace the kids with adults, we'd most likely see the same thing.

[ap Oweyn]

You did read that right? Or did you just jump into the thread, and make an assumption off of a few of my posts, without reading all of them?

I said I meant no offense. So this comeback seems uncalled for. I'd be happy to address your points, but not like this.

[Tez3]

I teach children and am pleased to, I've posted up here enough times why I teach the children I do. They don't get blackbelts not even junior ones until after they are at least 16 and have also trained with the adults from being 14. They do age appropriate self defence, they don't think they can take an adult on (at least not singly, in a group I think they could lol) they do spar harder than most kids. As a group they tend to be more confident than a lot of kids, most have lived in a couple of countries, been to several schools and have moved homes about every three years.

Our chief instructor is an old fashioned in that SD has to work or he won't teach the technique, 'work' to him means he's used them either on the doors or elsewhere. Our kata work involves knowing Bunkai as espoused by Iain Abernethy as well as being able to 'perform' it. Most of the adults training with us don't grade or follow any syllabus, we have two 16 year olds who have gone straight into MMA, they aren't grading so aren't looking for BBs. The children we teach know they won't get one and we all see SD and fighting as more important than belts. The children do grade, maybe twice a year at most, they work very very hard and their belts mean they are good at being that grade and age nothing else.

If our kids go on to get black belts it's unlikely to be with us as for them to stay over three years with us is unusual. If they come to us as white after three years they'll have gone up two or maybe three belts but they will have perhaps a deeper knowledge of martials art than many who've been doing it the same time and have higher grades.

[celtic_crippler]

I suppose this will be one of those 'hot' topics, one that will be a NHB sort of thread, however, while it no doubt will get hot, feelings will get hurt, keep in mind....a) I intend to keep all of my posts well within the rules, although I can't speak for others, I'm hoping they do the same, b) some tender hearts will get hurt, no doubt. Part of being in the arts, and on a forum, is to have a thick skin. If the words of some on the net offend you, God help you in the real world. That being said....here goes......

I've been in the arts for a bit over 20yrs now. I didn't know much when I started, but I've had the chance to see quite a bit, fastforwarding to present time. I've read books, articles, spoke with various people...all of which has shown the same thing, that the arts have really changed from past to what we see today. Back in the day it was nothing to get banged up, whereas today, the slightest bit of contact, and people cry foul, because their glass child got hurt or hit too hard. Better clear the sidewalks for the campout of lawyers. Back in the day, the focus was on learning, which took time, lots of time, whereas today, if Johnny isn't keeping up with Joey, God forbid, and he doesnt get promoted at the same time, God forbid we have Johnny wait until he's old enough for black belt, instead of giving it to him when he's 7.

Is that what the arts have come to today? A bunch of take my dough dojos, who promote kids who aren't old enough to drive yet? Seems like the mentality is, as long as the kid shows up to class, can compete well, and knows his stuff, who gives a rats ass if he's 7 and a 1st degree, or 12 and a 3rd degree. If thats what it comes down to today, thats sad and very pathetic!

People run around saying, "Well, Master so and so thinks Joey looks good so he is deserving of that 4th degree....even though he's only 12." Well, people must be living with blinders on, because if thats what they think, they're kidding themselves. I mean really, if you were paying GM or Master X, X number of dollars, of course they're going to promote the kid. They're getting paid, do you really think they give a **** about Joey?

Thank God there are still schools around today, to counter the McDojos that are so rampant today. Schools that put quality over quantity and dont cater to the Jones', who think it's all about them, and who feel that their 8yo should be a 2nd degree.

Its sad, and its a joke. And frankly, I'd be ashamed to admit that my kid is that young and has that rank.

Enough ranting from me for now.. :)....I'm sure there're others who will agree and those that disagree. I just wonder, how people can sleep at night, knowing that their kid is a laughing stock amongst other martial artists...those who bust their ass on the mat, those who have put in the blood, sweat and tears into training, those who dont run and cry when they get hit.

I feel ya' brother!

I got a call this past Saturday from a fella' who had trained with me in the past when I assisted instructing at a commercial dojo. He wanted to train with me because I was closer, but I still referred him to the commercial dojo because I knew he wasn't dedicated.

In the past he'd come for a month, drop out for several months, then come back again. It was obvious he didn't practice outside the dojo.

Now that I teach privately, I don't take on anyone that isn't 100% dedicated. Maintain the flame...that's my motto. LOL

Funny thing is, even when I was an assitant instructor...we lost potential students because after seeing a demo they thought we were ..."TOO ROUGH!" LOL

Can you believe that? They'd claim to want to learn self-defense but when we'd show them somthing as simple as 5 Swords they'd freak?!?!

Hell, my philosophy was always "If that hurts me, then I know it will hurt someone else; therefore, I wanted to learn it!"

I've learned that most people only want to be able to say they are black belts. They don't actually want to put in the blood, sweat, and tears necessary to achieve the actual skill that was once associated with that rank.

They'd rather pay their dues, show up a few times week, and get their certificate and belt saying they are a black belt in about a year.

It took me 3 years to get my black in Kenpo...and that was going to class 5 times a week, practicing every day, and basically busting my ass to get it. I attained a black belt in a shorter time than anyone ever had in the organization I was associated with at the time...and that was 3 years. But it was because I busted my tail and practiced all the time. I ate, slept, and breathed Kenpo during that time...

Westerner's are lazy. They want to have braggin' rights but don't want to put in the effort to legitamately claim them.

Greed and the almightly dollar has cheapened the arts. If I tried to make a living off of students that were willing to put in the effort it actually takes to attain the level of expertise I expect, I would go bankrupt.

What kills me is that these folks that want the one-year black belt could save themselves a lot of trouble and money by simply picking up a Century catalouge and orderning a black belt. They could claim the rank even more quickly and be just as skilled.

There was a time when simply being a "black belt" garnered respect... that was before the McDojo and the Power Rangers. LOL

[Omar B]

Funny thing is, even when I was an assitant instructor...we lost potential students because after seeing a demo they thought we were ..."TOO ROUGH!" LOL

Can you believe that? They'd claim to want to learn self-defense but when we'd show them somthing as simple as 5 Swords they'd freak?!?!


Hey man, 5 Swords is friggin crazy, and scary as all hell. Last thing I need is to be on the receiving end of that 10 or 20 times a day in class. LOL

But really, I think you've hit upon an interesting point at the end in mentioning Power Ranger. In the movies the story's so common with the kid who trains and within a week is a black belt ::cough:: Karate Kid ::cough:: . But really, people walk into a dojo with expectations colored by Hollywood of what actually happens, how long it takes, and a lot of weird stuff about meditation.

[suicide]

five swords one of my all time fav. :knight2:

[Xinglu]

Stuart - As an 8 y/o yellow belt, I was able to control sparing matches with adult white belts, as purple I could control adult yellows (not dominate per se) . So I know it is possible and realistic. By control I don't mean beat. I mean they did not control the fight, I did. My tactics and strategy was strong enough to keep them on the defensive even if I didn't have the power to do real harm. Being able to do that to an adult you can imagine what was possible with people my own age or size.

From my first class on I was told that if I was under 18 I would not be able to wear a BB. So I didn't worry about it. None of my classmates my age did either. There was an up front standard and each level was hard sure, but earned. Being a yellow belt or purple belt meant something. It wasn't cheap and respect for each rank was shown. If you were a yellow belt and a green belt told you to do something, you did it. It also taught us as youth to have emotional maturity - something that is lacking severely by youth today.

So I disagree about you comparing it to waving it in front of them to tell them they can't have it. We trained for the art, not the rank. As far as I'm concerned someone training for the rank should be held back until they can fix their ego issues. Heck it took me 10 years just to make green belt, but as Tez said above, I had a deeper understanding of the art and what each rank entails then most adult who could and did progress faster. It is because of this that even today, my focus is on effective application of what I learn instead of getting the next belt. After all what good is a yellow belt if you can't apply what you learned as a white belt?

I want to share a point that has already been made, just because I feel it needs reiteration.


Oh, I wouldn't go so far as to put all kids in the same basket. Of course, if a kid isn't mature enough to understand there's more to training than that magical BB, then perhaps they're too young to be training in the first place.

For the most part kids don't care about the BB, the parents do and then as a byproduct the kids feel they should so they end up mimicking their parents. But if you are upfront with them from the get go they show up to learn. Period. And that is what it is all about, learning. Not achieving a BB. And when the focus of the Dojo is learning and becoming better, rank is no longer a goal and is better respected because it is earned.

I have seen BB that are terrible. Equivalent to a purple belt in other schools as far as knowledge but maybe more like a yellow in application. I think that is not a good representation of an art, and personally I feel it is a disservice to that art. It is apparent at that point that the rank was given, not earned. I don't care what the art is, TKD, Kenpo, Kaju, Karate, whatever... A BB in any of those should not be able to be taken out or controlled by a Jr. ranking regardless of the system. If a purple belt from one system cross trains and tears apart and controls the BB from another school, there is a problem. Unfortunately, I have seen it happen quite a few times.

For example, I'm not ultimate fighter, I consider my self average on my good days. But I cross trained (I will leave the style and school unnamed out of respect) when I was a green belt and was controlling matches and defeating BB as high as 4rd dan regularly. To me, this is unacceptable, if a green belt can take on control and beat your BBs then what are you doing?! Does that mean my Green belt in the other system was worth more than their 4th dan?! Not only did it cause some problems in the school with the BB, but it caused a problem with my motivation. I did not feel challenged. You learn by fighting people better than you, and my instructor seemed to want me around so they could learn from me not me learn from them. Of course I left after a while, and found a place where I got thrown around a lot, beaten in sparring a lot, and learned a lot there! Because like my first dojo, it was about learning how to apply what you knew, not just doing forms and techniques.

[ralphmcpherson]

The whole "Black belt" standard comes down to what an individual school deems a black belt to mean. This varies from school to school obviously and therefore could be debated till the end of time. Some people dont start martial arts untill they are in their 50's and may have no flexibility and may be naturally uncoordinated and slow. By some defintions of "black belt" a person like this would find a black belt literally unatainable. People do martial arts for different reasons these days also. My wife has started martial arts because it is giving her a better and more interesting excercise than aerobics was , she doesnt have an aggressive bone in her body , doesnt want to "learn how to fight" or how to defend herself , she has no interest in any of that and yet she absolutely loves martial arts. All in all ,a lot of people are doing martial arts for different reasons these days.

[MJS]

I said I meant no offense. So this comeback seems uncalled for. I'd be happy to address your points, but not like this.

My apologies. Feel free to address my points, if you wish. :)

[MJS]

Stuart - As an 8 y/o yellow belt, I was able to control sparing matches with adult white belts, as purple I could control adult yellows (not dominate per se) . So I know it is possible and realistic. By control I don't mean beat. I mean they did not control the fight, I did. My tactics and strategy was strong enough to keep them on the defensive even if I didn't have the power to do real harm. Being able to do that to an adult you can imagine what was possible with people my own age or size.

From my first class on I was told that if I was under 18 I would not be able to wear a BB. So I didn't worry about it. None of my classmates my age did either. There was an up front standard and each level was hard sure, but earned. Being a yellow belt or purple belt meant something. It wasn't cheap and respect for each rank was shown. If you were a yellow belt and a green belt told you to do something, you did it. It also taught us as youth to have emotional maturity - something that is lacking severely by youth today.

So I disagree about you comparing it to waving it in front of them to tell them they can't have it. We trained for the art, not the rank. As far as I'm concerned someone training for the rank should be held back until they can fix their ego issues. Heck it took me 10 years just to make green belt, but as Tez said above, I had a deeper understanding of the art and what each rank entails then most adult who could and did progress faster. It is because of this that even today, my focus is on effective application of what I learn instead of getting the next belt. After all what good is a yellow belt if you can't apply what you learned as a white belt?

I want to share a point that has already been made, just because I feel it needs reiteration.

That was my thinking as well. Its not that we're dangling it in front of them, but simply making them wait. God forbid a child waits for something. Hmm..isn't that part of the arts...to have the ability to humble yourself and actually work for something instead of having it handed to you? IMO, giving the belt to a kid not deserving, is taking away from the value of it. Then again, some people seem to think that the belt has some magical powers...it doesnt. Its not the belt thats gonna save your ass, its your ability to execute the material when your under the gun.




For the most part kids don't care about the BB, the parents do and then as a byproduct the kids feel they should so they end up mimicking their parents. But if you are upfront with them from the get go they show up to learn. Period. And that is what it is all about, learning. Not achieving a BB. And when the focus of the Dojo is learning and becoming better, rank is no longer a goal and is better respected because it is earned.

Again, I say this is because of the distorted view that a good portion of the public has on what a BB means. Sadly the mcdojos only see the $$$$ and hand them out like candy.


I have seen BB that are terrible. Equivalent to a purple belt in other schools as far as knowledge but maybe more like a yellow in application. I think that is not a good representation of an art, and personally I feel it is a disservice to that art. It is apparent at that point that the rank was given, not earned. I don't care what the art is, TKD, Kenpo, Kaju, Karate, whatever... A BB in any of those should not be able to be taken out or controlled by a Jr. ranking regardless of the system. If a purple belt from one system cross trains and tears apart and controls the BB from another school, there is a problem. Unfortunately, I have seen it happen quite a few times.

Ditto.

[ap Oweyn]

Stuart - As an 8 y/o yellow belt, I was able to control sparing matches with adult white belts, as purple I could control adult yellows (not dominate per se) . So I know it is possible and realistic. By control I don't mean beat. I mean they did not control the fight, I did. My tactics and strategy was strong enough to keep them on the defensive even if I didn't have the power to do real harm. Being able to do that to an adult you can imagine what was possible with people my own age or size.
Well now, wait a minute, Xinglu. I said that expectations should be scaled. Not lowered. I've clearly stated that various times. And what you're describing here is a scaled expectation. You were expected to have a technical command. You were NOT expected to "beat" to a grown adult by "taking him out." And you certainly weren't expected to beat a grown adult in a real, no-holds-barred situation.

That's scaled. Literally, scale pertains to size, yes? You were expected to show a good command of technique, but there was an acknowledgment that, given your relative sizes, you weren't going to dole out the damage required to eliminate the threat (had the threat been real).


From my first class on I was told that if I was under 18 I would not be able to wear a BB. So I didn't worry about it. None of my classmates my age did either. There was an up front standard and each level was hard sure, but earned. Being a yellow belt or purple belt meant something. It wasn't cheap and respect for each rank was shown. If you were a yellow belt and a green belt told you to do something, you did it. It also taught us as youth to have emotional maturity - something that is lacking severely by youth today.
Again, this is something I said in my earlier post. That we should talk with students about what really matters. If your school was up front about what the real objective is, and made it clear that the black belt wasn't the epitome of martial artist-ness, then they did what I described.

I said that we can't hold up the black belt as being the most important thing and then offer no avenue for earning it. You're countering with a school that DIDN'T present the black belt as the most important thing. And I stated clearly that, if the black belt is unattainable, then we should stop dangling it in front of kids' (and parents') noses as "the goal." Your school apparently did just the opposite.


So I disagree about you comparing it to waving it in front of them to tell them they can't have it. We trained for the art, not the rank.
Then you don't actually disagree with me, as I said I don't use a belt system anyway. But that, if you're going to use one, setting objectives that a child can't achieve, without telling the child as much up front, is a mistake. Conversely, I said that if you DO award the child such a belt as an acknowledgment of progress, it should come with clear explanations of what that realistically means.


As far as I'm concerned someone training for the rank should be held back until they can fix their ego issues.
And you don't know any adult black belts with anything that might be described as "ego issues"?


Heck it took me 10 years just to make green belt, but as Tez said above, I had a deeper understanding of the art and what each rank entails then most adult who could and did progress faster. It is because of this that even today, my focus is on effective application of what I learn instead of getting the next belt. After all what good is a yellow belt if you can't apply what you learned as a white belt?
None. But you're presenting this all as an argument to my point that kids' standards should be lowered. Which isn't what I said.


For the most part kids don't care about the BB, the parents do and then as a byproduct the kids feel they should so they end up mimicking their parents. But if you are upfront with them from the get go they show up to learn. Period. And that is what it is all about, learning. Not achieving a BB. And when the focus of the Dojo is learning and becoming better, rank is no longer a goal and is better respected because it is earned.
I couldn't agree more. Again, I don't use a belt system. And people show up anyway. I'm saying that, IF you use a belt system, it needs to be transparent. And, given the hype that a black belt has been given over the years (through the media, schools, etc.), we have some expectations to undo first.


I have seen BB that are terrible. Equivalent to a purple belt in other schools as far as knowledge but maybe more like a yellow in application. I think that is not a good representation of an art, and personally I feel it is a disservice to that art. It is apparent at that point that the rank was given, not earned. I don't care what the art is, TKD, Kenpo, Kaju, Karate, whatever... A BB in any of those should not be able to be taken out or controlled by a Jr. ranking regardless of the system. If a purple belt from one system cross trains and tears apart and controls the BB from another school, there is a problem. Unfortunately, I have seen it happen quite a few times.
As far as I'm concerned, that's a poor reflection on a teacher and a school. Not on a style. I understand, when I see a bad presentation of a style, that I could turn around and find a really excellent presentation of that same style elsewhere. So it's the teacher and school that are at fault.


For example, I'm not ultimate fighter, I consider my self average on my good days. But I cross trained (I will leave the style and school unnamed out of respect) when I was a green belt and was controlling matches and defeating BB as high as 4rd dan regularly. To me, this is unacceptable, if a green belt can take on control and beat your BBs then what are you doing?! Does that mean my Green belt in the other system was worth more than their 4th dan?! Not only did it cause some problems in the school with the BB, but it caused a problem with my motivation. I did not feel challenged. You learn by fighting people better than you, and my instructor seemed to want me around so they could learn from me not me learn from them. Of course I left after a while, and found a place where I got thrown around a lot, beaten in sparring a lot, and learned a lot there! Because like my first dojo, it was about learning how to apply what you knew, not just doing forms and techniques.
Sure. But my feeling is this: It's utterly unrealistic to think that standardized belting is within our locus of control. It seems a much more useful measure, to me, to simply change how I perceive the belt someone wears. If I see someone with a higher belt than me, I'm not thinking "that guy can take me." Just as I'm not looking at a yellow belt and thinking "no problem." The belt is a metaphor. And those are always imperfect.

I think it's much more useful to look at the individual and how they move, present themselves, etc. I haven't trained within a belt system for more than 20 years. And it hasn't posed any problems. A belt system is a tool. And tools ought to come with clear instructions. People (especially kids and their parents) should be given a clear sense of what it's for, what's expected of them, and how they can (and cannot) move through the system.

Again, no disrespect intended. I think we're closer to agreeing than it seems. And even if I'm wrong, and we agree to disagree, there's no hostility in it. I hope that's clear.


Stuart

[MJS]

I feel ya' brother!

I got a call this past Saturday from a fella' who had trained with me in the past when I assisted instructing at a commercial dojo. He wanted to train with me because I was closer, but I still referred him to the commercial dojo because I knew he wasn't dedicated.

In the past he'd come for a month, drop out for several months, then come back again. It was obvious he didn't practice outside the dojo.

Now that I teach privately, I don't take on anyone that isn't 100% dedicated. Maintain the flame...that's my motto. LOL

Funny thing is, even when I was an assitant instructor...we lost potential students because after seeing a demo they thought we were ..."TOO ROUGH!" LOL

Can you believe that? They'd claim to want to learn self-defense but when we'd show them somthing as simple as 5 Swords they'd freak?!?!

Hell, my philosophy was always "If that hurts me, then I know it will hurt someone else; therefore, I wanted to learn it!"

I've learned that most people only want to be able to say they are black belts. They don't actually want to put in the blood, sweat, and tears necessary to achieve the actual skill that was once associated with that rank.

They'd rather pay their dues, show up a few times week, and get their certificate and belt saying they are a black belt in about a year.

It took me 3 years to get my black in Kenpo...and that was going to class 5 times a week, practicing every day, and basically busting my ass to get it. I attained a black belt in a shorter time than anyone ever had in the organization I was associated with at the time...and that was 3 years. But it was because I busted my tail and practiced all the time. I ate, slept, and breathed Kenpo during that time...

Westerner's are lazy. They want to have braggin' rights but don't want to put in the effort to legitamately claim them.

Greed and the almightly dollar has cheapened the arts. If I tried to make a living off of students that were willing to put in the effort it actually takes to attain the level of expertise I expect, I would go bankrupt.

What kills me is that these folks that want the one-year black belt could save themselves a lot of trouble and money by simply picking up a Century catalouge and orderning a black belt. They could claim the rank even more quickly and be just as skilled.

There was a time when simply being a "black belt" garnered respect... that was before the McDojo and the Power Rangers. LOL

Amen brother! And like I said, its those same people who think that the BB holds some mystical powers. In reality, those people are only hurting themselves, in the event they need to use their 'skills' to defend themselves, only to find out the guy trying to take their head off, isn't gonna pull his punch. Like I said earlier...

Cost for martial arts lessons: $90/month
Cost for the Mcdojo Masters Club program: $1200
Look on the face of the person when they get their ass kicked because they thought they were a BB? Priceless. :D

[ap Oweyn]

My apologies. Feel free to address my points, if you wish. :)

No worries MJS. I hope I've addressed some of them in my response to Xinglu. But I'm still planning on addressing yours in full. But I'm a stay-at-home dad. And my diminuitive master is calling.


Stuart

[ap Oweyn]

That was my thinking as well. Its not that we're dangling it in front of them, but simply making them wait. God forbid a child waits for something.

I think there's a difference between telling them that something is going to take A LOT of time and effort versus telling them that they can't have something because they're a kid. One makes it clear that what they want is attainable, but far from easy. The other takes it totally out of their locus of control and into the hands of Father Time.

[MJS]

Well now, wait a minute, Xinglu. I said that expectations should be scaled. Not lowered. I've clearly stated that various times. And what you're describing here is a scaled expectation. You were expected to have a technical command. You were NOT expected to "beat" to a grown adult by "taking him out." And you certainly weren't expected to beat a grown adult in a real, no-holds-barred situation.

That's scaled. Literally, scale pertains to size, yes? You were expected to show a good command of technique, but there was an acknowledgment that, given your relative sizes, you weren't going to dole out the damage required to eliminate the threat (had the threat been real).

Let me use this as an example...I'm not expecting to put a 12yo kid, against a 40yo adult, who weighs 3 times the kid, in a sparring match. But, If that 12yo can't fight against another 12yo without crying and complaining, then IMO, he's not ready for BB. The same with an adult. If by the time you're say brown belt, that adult can't handle getting grabbed and moved around, during techniques, without complaining that its too hard, IMO, thats in a way, taking away from my training. I dont want to sound selfish and maybe I do, but I'm there not only to reap the benefits of the other things I gain from the arts, but also for SD, which is at the top of my list. I never asked for a promotion, and there have been times when I failed a test, but I'm glad that I failed, because if I was just handed that belt anyways, I think it takes away from it a bit.



Again, this is something I said in my earlier post. That we should talk with students about what really matters. If your school was up front about what the real objective is, and made it clear that the black belt wasn't the epitome of martial artist-ness, then they did what I described.

I know you're addressing this to another member, but I'll comment on a part of this post. This IMO is the biggest problem. The inst. isn't making his/herself clear up front. I met up with a Martial Talk member this past Sunday. Joe aka: Just2kicku, was who I met. He commented, and I agree, that not only should a newbie watch the beginners class, but also an advanced class or two. Why? So the student will know whats coming down the road. Could this scare people away? Maybe, but at least it'll take away from the shock factor down the road.

I also realize that some school owners have other jobs, vs. those that run a school as their sole income. But still, even if you have a commercial school, and student enrollment is important, I still dont think the inst. should lower themselves and their standards. I'm a big Survivor fan. I watch the show every week. The show has been on for quite some time. I have to laugh when I hear people complain about the lack of food, how hungry they are, that they have to eat disgusting things, that they're subjected to the elements, that they're not going to shower or shave for long periods of time. They act like this was a shock to them. Why? How could it be? They didn't know what they were getting into? Its kinda like a kid having a childhood dream of becoming a cop. I had that dream, as my Grandfather was one. Yet to think you're going to become a cop and never have to worry about getting into a fight, have to work long hours, crazy shifts, deal with a wide variey of lifestyles and people, is kidding yourself. Sorry for the rant, but I got on a roll. :)


I said that we can't hold up the black belt as being the most important thing and then offer no avenue for earning it. You're countering with a school that DIDN'T present the black belt as the most important thing. And I stated clearly that, if the black belt is unattainable, then we should stop dangling it in front of kids' (and parents') noses as "the goal." Your school apparently did just the opposite.

But there is an avenue to get it, if you're a kid. This is where the Jr. BB comes into play. I think I mentioned this in an earlier post. The kid, who is young, say 12, gets the jrbb, and learns all of the other stuff that they didn't, because of their age, and then, at 16, 17 or 18, they're ready to test for adult BB. I'd rather see that, than a 12yo 3rd degree.



Then you don't actually disagree with me, as I said I don't use a belt system anyway. But that, if you're going to use one, setting objectives that a child can't achieve, without telling the child as much up front, is a mistake. Conversely, I said that if you DO award the child such a belt as an acknowledgment of progress, it should come with clear explanations of what that realistically means.

My Arnis system that I train in, has belts, but they're not worn. Actually for the under BB ranks, you just move up a level, with the rank, even though you dont get the belt. Once you reach BB, then you get a belt, but even then, I don't wear mine unless its a special occassion, ie: belt tests, or the group shot at a camp/seminar. Personally, I like this. And even now, my Kenpo BB, is a plain belt. No stripes, nothing but a plain belt. :)



Again, no disrespect intended. I think we're closer to agreeing than it seems. And even if I'm wrong, and we agree to disagree, there's no hostility in it. I hope that's clear.


Stuart

I think that we agree more than we disagree, as well. :)

[MJS]

I think there's a difference between telling them that something is going to take A LOT of time and effort versus telling them that they can't have something because they're a kid. One makes it clear that what they want is attainable, but far from easy. The other takes it totally out of their locus of control and into the hands of Father Time.

I agree, and this is why I think teachers should be upfront. If they have a policy to not ask when promotions will happen, then that should be made clear and it should be honored.

Inst: "Hello Mrs. Jones, Joey. Let me explain a little about the school."

Mrs. Jones: "How long will it take for my little Joey to get his black belt?"

Inst: "Well Mrs. Jones, it takes at least 6yrs. Joey is only 5, but that doesnt mean that when he's 11, he'll get a BB. I do not award them to people under 16. What I do though, is award a Jr. BB, which allows him to learn the rest of the material that is required of him. The JRBB is one step below full adult BB. He has something to show for his hard work, but will not be considered a full BB until he is 16."

Now, Mrs. Jones has 2 options: 1) Stand up, thank the inst. for his time, and walk down to the McDojang, or 2) see that she is enrolling her son in a good school, one that doesnt hand out rank, makes the students work, and decides to enroll Joey.

[ap Oweyn]

MJS,

I agree wholeheartedly with the last two posts. I'm an advocate of the Jr. BB myself. It serves as a recognition that the child has achieved something important, but still indicates the reality of their situation, as I mentioned earlier.

That's part of what I would consider scaling the experience.

I've never advocated letting people glide through a ranking system just so they don't feel badly about themselves. It's supposed to be a challenge.

For the record, our current arnis club takes the same approach. People have rank, but don't wear belts. I'm anticipating it'll work just fine, though we've just instituted that particular measure. I came up in an arnis system that had a full belt system and we wore them every class. Then another system where we didn't have or wear ranks of any sort. This is the first time that I'll be doing some sort of middle ground.


Stuart

[Zero]

I've learned that most people only want to be able to say they are black belts. They don't actually want to put in the blood, sweat, and tears necessary to achieve the actual skill that was once associated with that rank.

They'd rather pay their dues, show up a few times week, and get their certificate and belt saying they are a black belt in about a year.

There was a time when simply being a "black belt" garnered respect... that was before the McDojo and the Power Rangers. LOL

CC, sadly you have hit the nail on the head regarding many in the MAs, across many different styles.

Even when I was a junior, yellow up to brown, I could beat most black belts who would come training at our goju ryu club and also in tournaments (from goju and other karate styles). I think given that our club had some very accomplished ex-heavy weight national title holders other clubs would come (with good intentions) quite regularly to train with us and the sensei and spar. I was generally surprised or disappointed at the lack of fighting skill and mind set by many black belts and dans that I would spar with. I am not saying they were not good but I had always expected another level from someone who is 2nd dan or more... They had obviously done the time on their katas to meet grading requirements but I don't think the majority spent that extra time either in the dojo or at home on the bag really working out techniques and timing - and also conditioning.

I think I was lucky that I found a club run by those that had been full contact and serious competitors in their day and that also worked full time in dangerous enviornments (LEOs etc). We'd have people come in for a session or two and then never show again, perhaps as they found easier avenues to BB or whatever they were after elsewhere! I still remember the hiding I was given by the sensei (having switched from TKD to goju) the first night I demo'd the club. Nothing serious of course but cut lip, bruised and winded with a solar hit I droped like a sack of spuds. But, maybe with some trepidation, I was back there the next week, as I thought (like you obviously) sh#t, if these old dudes can woop my arse so easily I want to be trained by these guys!!