should schools teach a universal form of martial arts

[suicide]

elementary - basics

jr hs - intermidiate

hs - a lil bit more advanced

[Nolerama]

I think something should be offered, but voted on by the school board, in combination with a petition signed by a majority of the parents in that particular district. For some reason, I don't see that happening.

The MAs are a great thing, and should be enjoyed to some extent by everyone... But I think people will become interested in the MAs when its their time; and not as a requirement (even a two-week visit in PE) in school.

I'm assuming you're talking about other MAs outside of wrestling; which is offered in many schools.

[Rich Parsons]

elementary - basics

jr hs - intermidiate

hs - a lil bit more advanced

No.

Basics, How to twirls a Blade or Cane for a 5 year old who is not under your direct supervision could be a problem. For those parents who take their kid to a club / studio / etc. and they know what the kid will be learning for they can see it, then they have chosen what to expose their kid too.

But I still think that recess should still allow the kids to play, contact sports as I have heard recently that almost all schools have gotten rid of them for recess including kick ball.

[Daniel Sullivan]

elementary - basics

jr hs - intermidiate

hs - a lil bit more advanced
Some level of basics should be taught, especially at the elementary school level.

Children are much more vulnerable than adults

Certain basics, such as falling and rolling, are applicable outside of just self defense as well; you may never be attacked in your lifetime... ever (some people are lucky that way), but you will fall, and kids tend to fall more than adults, partly because kids engage in activities where a fall is much more likely.

Given the vulnerability of children, they most definitely should be taught situational awareness, how to handle themselves if someone attacks them, strategies to escape, and most importantly, verbal skills.

As far as techniques, basics such as dodging, blocks, footwork, and the aforementioned ukemi would be benefical to any child.

As students get to middle school, teaching them some basic holds and grabs, how to get out of them, and how to use them to stop an attacker and then effect escape would likely be permissible and certainly helpful. More advanced ukemi could be taught at this level.

The area where you would run into problems making SD mandatory is with anything that could be categorized as "offensive" techniques. Any kind of striking instruction will be targeted by the lawsuit crazy lambs who wish to sue everyone else as they merrilly skip to the slaughterhouse. The climate in public schools is very hostile to defending one's self. In Mont. County, if a student is attacked and defends themselves, both the attacker and the victim are suspended or expelled. This may be the case even if the victim does not fight back, but I am not sure enough to make that assertion.

By high school, a police sponsored self defense course is very appropriate. And having it police sponsored should keep the lawsuit lambs at bay.

For anything beyond that, most every high school has a wrestling team, and for strikers, a karate or kickboxing club could easily be offered. It is sports now, not fighting. A high school sport taekwondo team would be pathetically easy to do; partipants are suitably padded up with safety gear, there is a built in tournament circuit already, an international governing body and an international registry for rank above dan bo. Sport karate would likewise be easy to do as a high school program.

For those inclined towards weapons, a good number of high schools have fencing teams, and a kendo club would be easily worked in as well.

Aside from the legal issues I mentioned earlier, the biggest issue would be qualified personel and convincing a school that a martial arts or self defense program is worth making room for on the school's budget.

Daniel

[alphacat]

I think that violent kids would take the MA they were taught in school to the streets and not for self defense intentions.

Most teachers don’t get the honor an instructor does, and therefore won't be able to influence on the kids' behavior, especially on the behavior of the evil kids.

[celtic_crippler]

Ever wonder why there's so many forms of martial arts?

People have preferences; likes and dislikes. What I like, you may not like or be interested in.

For that reason, I don't see a "universal" form of martial arts existing ever.

[CoryKS]

You know, we receive so much literature from our son's school about nutrition, exercise, fundraisers, charity drives, and the like that I forget what the hell they're even supposed to be teaching them anymore. I would prefer that they not add any more subjects to the curriculum and renew their drive to teach them math, language skills, and science. If they add anything, let it be Logic and Economics.

/my lawn, get off it

[celtic_crippler]

You know, we receive so much literature from our son's school about nutrition, exercise, fundraisers, charity drives, and the like that I forget what the hell they're even supposed to be teaching them anymore. I would prefer that they not add any more subjects to the curriculum and renew their drive to teach them math, language skills, and science. If they add anything, let it be Logic and Economics.

/my lawn, get off it

The 3 "R"s? lol

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

You know, we receive so much literature from our son's school about nutrition, exercise, fundraisers, charity drives, and the like that I forget what the hell they're even supposed to be teaching them anymore. I would prefer that they not add any more subjects to the curriculum and renew their drive to teach them math, language skills, and science. If they add anything, let it be Logic and Economics.

/my lawn, get off it

We are going off topic a tad but I feel that school should give them a well rounded education and give them a wide expossure to different things.

My biggest grip is they dont teach enough civics, i think civics should be taught every year from 5th grade on, not just 1 credit and your done.

The reason Jefferson was for public education was to have informed voters as it was his compramise to his position that only landowners should vote. He did not want iggnorent people having a say.

Now on the OT. I would be o.k. with them doing some MA in P.E. class but at the same time I'd rather their parents hire me and others like me to teach their kids.

[Bill Mattocks]

Teaching martial arts to prisoners is a bad idea.

Teaching martial arts to children in public schools is a bad idea, and for the same reason.

If anything, children should have their arms chained to their sides and duct-tape placed over their mouths until they are eighteen years old.

[OnlyAnEgg]

Teaching martial arts to prisoners is a bad idea.

Teaching martial arts to children in public schools is a bad idea, and for the same reason.

If anything, children should have their arms chained to their sides and duct-tape placed over their mouths until they are eighteen years old.

rofl!

Speaking for myself: as a child, ma training would've made me even more dangerous than i was...and i mean recklessly dangerous

[Bill Mattocks]

rofl!

Speaking for myself: as a child, ma training would've made me even more dangerous than i was...and i mean recklessly dangerous

I had to deal with bullies more than once growing up. Probably a good thing that neither of us knew any martial arts. Black eyes and split lips are better than broken bones and knees blown out from side kicks before the age of 10.

[Big Don]

They do.
Mostly they call it running, but, it is also known as Nike Do.

[Andy Moynihan]

Now hold on.


These are the once-"educational" institutions that suspend both parties for fighting even if one of them acted in the right and sometimes didn't even fight back at all, and these are the people you wanna trust to teach martial arts?

[Andrew Green]

elementary - basics

jr hs - intermidiate

hs - a lil bit more advanced

Wrestling.

I'd say its as close to a universal martial art as you can get. Pretty much every culture has developed a form of sport wrestling at one point or another.

It's also very non-violent compared to most traditional styles, due to the lack of strikes and submissions.

That said I don't think it should be a required part of school, just a optional sport.

[suicide]

Teaching martial arts to prisoners is a bad idea.

Teaching martial arts to children in public schools is a bad idea, and for the same reason.

If anything, children should have their arms chained to their sides and duct-tape placed over their mouths until they are eighteen years old.

whoa ! sound like my dad ...

they teach prisoners boxing so why not MA

[David43515]

Well I teach Jr high here in Japan, and I know our kids get a required minimum of 8 hrs of Judo in PE class each year. Many schools have Judo/Kendo/Karate/Sumo clubs as well. But as far as a required class, Even we only do it as a breif introductory class. Most PE teachers have at least a Sodan level.

But I think the problem you would run into would be determining what is acceptable for each age group. Or what the aim of the course is to be.(Self Defense vs Sport vs teaching a specific style) Also you run the risk of discipline problems.

[still learning]

Hello, My Daughters Sensi Al...many years ago was ask to teach Judo at a private elememtary school...

Results....Less acidents, less bullying and better attendance and grades..

Kids learn how to fall and roll, bullying slow down alot, and even the grades improve...(Judo also teaches how to get along with each other...respect!)

There are other Schools that teaches this ART of Judo with great results with elementary students and higher grades...

Keep an open mind.....Martial arts learning is a good thing...can also be use bad people.....just like "guns" ..in the wrong hands? ....can be a dangerous...

Should school teach a form of martial arts? .....YES!

Will it happen NO....to many problems including liabilities...and getting enough "train qualify Sensi's or Instructors..and the total cost, class spaces, equitments...etc..

Aloha, ....Will it better for the kids in the long run? ...Yes and Yes

[Bill Mattocks]

whoa ! sound like my dad ...

they teach prisoners boxing so why not MA

Because they are bad people. They should not be taught anything but a trade so they can work and pay taxes if and when they ever get out. Teaching them ways to hurt people is a very bad idea because that's what they will do.

[zepedawingchun]

whoa ! sound like my dad ...

they teach prisoners boxing so why not MA

I don't think official who run the prisons teach boxing, they permit the prisoners to box, as a sport, like playing basketball, weight training, etc. But teach them, no.

[suicide]

Because they are bad people. They should not be taught anything but a trade so they can work and pay taxes if and when they ever get out. Teaching them ways to hurt people is a very bad idea because that's what they will do.


thats your point of view , who knows MA might change peoples lives in there maybe it can be used as a form of rehabilitation ma works wonders for all human beings just because there criminals doesnt mean MA cant & wont make a change in there life. how many people did samurais & ninjas kill decapitate poison ambush etc. how many horrible things have you done that no one knows about and you do MA ?

[Daniel Sullivan]

thats your point of view , who knows MA might change peoples lives in there maybe it can be used as a form of rehabilitation ma works wonders for all human beings just because there criminals doesnt mean MA cant & wont make a change in there life.
The aspect of MA that can help prisoners are common to other activities and programs, activities and programs that do not teach fighting skills. The problem is that prisoners usually resist programs that can effect positive change.


how many people did samurais & ninjas kill decapitate poison ambush etc.
Irrelevent. Our society does not contain samurai or ninjas. And should we really use the behavior of medieval soldiers and spies as a means of evaluating modern morality?


how many horrible things have you done that no one knows about and you do MA ?Given that modern society has the practice of innocent until proven guilty, we have to assume that Bill has no such horrible things to share.

Irrelevent in any case: just because some commit crimes and are not caught does not change the fact that common sense mitigates against giving criminals tools to make them better fighters; the prison system goes to great lengths to keep inmates from being dangerous to one another.

Daniel

[Xinglu]

Daniel - Logic and sound reasoning have no place here... you and your words.... :lool:

[Phoenix44]

Teaching martial arts to prisoners is a bad idea.

Teaching martial arts to children in public schools is a bad idea, and for the same reason.

If anything, children should have their arms chained to their sides and duct-tape placed over their mouths until they are eighteen years old.

I'm taking a guess...you have teenagers?

[Xinglu]

To answer the OP's question: Unequivocally no.. I have no problem with them learning a sport - but athletes in school are kept to high academic and social standards, otherwise they lose the privilage of playing the sport. But MA's are not sports. They are methods of SD.

I am not a fan of compulsory education let alone compulsory MA training for all?

[Omar B]

I've got no problem with martial arts being taught at school, it's the word "universal" that bothers me. How does one devise a "universal form?" What is a "universal form?" Since it's universal; it should apply and work for all, equally as well, but we all know that's not possible. Even if such a thing were attempted, in devising such an art all you would end up with is one giant compromise that's as equally unsuited to actual use as it is impractical.

I started Karate in Prep school, but it was taught as a separate program from the regular curriculum with our Sensei coming in 3 days a week and using the room set aside for use as Ballet in the evenings when Karate's not in there.

[suicide]

The aspect of MA that can help prisoners are common to other activities and programs, activities and programs that do not teach fighting skills. The problem is that prisoners usually resist programs that can effect positive change.


Irrelevent. Our society does not contain samurai or ninjas. And should we really use the behavior of medieval soldiers and spies as a means of evaluating modern morality?

Given that modern society has the practice of innocent until proven guilty, we have to assume that Bill has no such horrible things to share.

Irrelevent in any case: just because some commit crimes and are not caught does not change the fact that common sense mitigates against giving criminals tools to make them better fighters; the prison system goes to great lengths to keep inmates from being dangerous to one another.

Daniel

i think prisoners resist programs and things like that because of the way there were brought up the way they ve been living for so long that a lil program seems a lil foolish to them ' most of these guys have been fighting to survive for the most part of there life - i think ma can teach em how to hold back and see that sometimes all the violence is not necesary - i know not all of them would change but if 10 out of 100 would that would make an enormus difference ...

im sure bill is not hannibal lector im just saying ma is there for everyone , just imagine all the criminals as kids were introduced to ma dont you think a bigger percentage of them would of turned out diffrent ?

its a dangerous enviroment of course they dont want them killing each other but not only the sd side but the other sides of ma i think would make a great difference in there approach to all aspects of life ...

[shihansmurf]

What sort of liability issues would this cause? Specifically related to covering the costs of the injuries that will surely arise from this.

Now, I'm okay with my kid getting thumped and knocked around, he's a rough and tumble little guy as it is, but I'm wondering at how many other parents would have problems with their youngsters being taught how to fight? If not, could the parent's opt their kids out? Would uniforms be an extra cost, or something else that the school would have to figure out how to pay for out of an already tight budget?

What sort of safety measures would be in place? Would they be extensive enough that the training would basically be watered down to the point of being nothing more than Tae-Bo? If that is the case, then why not just teach Tae-Bo?

Just a few question, for clarity.
Mark

[Daniel Sullivan]

i think prisoners resist programs and things like that because of the way there were brought up the way they ve been living for so long that a lil program seems a lil foolish to them ' most of these guys have been fighting to survive for the most part of there life
What you say is probably true, but the end result is that the programs designed to rehabilitate prisoners are generally resisted by the prisoners.


i think ma can teach em how to hold back and see that sometimes all the violence is not necesary - i know not all of them would change but if 10 out of 100 would that would make an enormus difference ...
Before MA can teach them anything of value, they need to be teachable. Students coming in the door of a dojo are teachable. Not all to the same degree, but they are in class of their own volition and at least want to attempt to learn what you are teaching.

This is the biggest difference between prison and school: kids in school are generally open to new things and are generally willing to taught to varying degrees. Kids also accept school as a normal part of their lives. Prisoners, on the other hand, are generally angry that they are in prison and their remorse is generally over getting caught, not over what they were caught doing.

Needless to say, I disagree with Bill's statement,


Teaching martial arts to prisoners is a bad idea.

Teaching martial arts to children in public schools is a bad idea, and for the same reason.

If anything, children should have their arms chained to their sides and duct-tape placed over their mouths until they are eighteen years old.

Teaching martial arts might help to keep those kids from public schools from becoming residents of the prison system later in life. Provided the program was designed with a strong emphasis on the 'do' rather than on fighting.

Daniel

[suicide]

What you say is probably true, but the end result is that the programs designed to rehabilitate prisoners are generally resisted by the prisoners.


Before MA can teach them anything of value, they need to be teachable. Students coming in the door of a dojo are teachable. Not all to the same degree, but they are in class of their own volition and at least want to attempt to learn what you are teaching.

This is the biggest difference between prison and school: kids in school are generally open to new things and are generally willing to taught to varying degrees. Kids also accept school as a normal part of their lives. Prisoners, on the other hand, are generally angry that they are in prison and their remorse is generally over getting caught, not over what they were caught doing.

Needless to say, I disagree with Bill's statement,

"Teaching martial arts to prisoners is a bad idea.

Teaching martial arts to children in public schools is a bad idea, and for the same reason."

Teaching martial arts might help to keep those kids from public schools from becoming residents of the prison system later in life. Provided the program was designed with a strong emphasis on the 'do' rather than on fighting.

Daniel

nice choice of words you broken down the right way.

[Bill Mattocks]

thats your point of view , who knows MA might change peoples lives in there maybe it can be used as a form of rehabilitation ma works wonders for all human beings just because there criminals doesnt mean MA cant & wont make a change in there life. how many people did samurais & ninjas kill decapitate poison ambush etc. how many horrible things have you done that no one knows about and you do MA ?

I spent enough time working in law enforcement to realize that criminals are, first and foremost, predators who have realized that laws are made of paper, and only enforced if the predator in question gets caught.

They are fundamentally unlike you or me. They do not have a feeling of social responsibility, and they cannot be taught it. They are truly amoral, like animals, knowing neither good nor bad but only what they want at the moment.

Whilst martial arts training instills a sense of responsibility in many practitioners, it is a mistake to assume that criminals locked in prisons are subject to the same feelings we are. They are not.

I have never - EVER - met a parole officer who was a liberal, even though many started out that way and they will admit it. They know that all prisoners are liars, opportunists, con-artists, and basically as evil as evil gets. They'll do anything, say anything, whatever they have to do in order to get what they want. They're not humans, they're dangerous creatures who look at us exactly the same way a snake looks at a mouse.

Giving them the ability to fight more effectively is exactly the same thing as handing them loaded guns as they exit prison.

Spend some time around criminals and you will quickly change your tune. The only people who think they can change are people who never spent any time with them.

[harlan]

Unbelievable.


They're not humans...

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm taking a guess...you have teenagers?

No, I have no children. I was fortunate - although I am the eldest child in my family, my younger sisters all had children before I married. Having experienced everything from changing diapers to tantrums to having the police bring the little hoodlums home in the middle of the night, I came to the conclusion that Mark Twain was right. Children should be kept in a barrel and fed through the hole in the barrel until their 18th birthday; at that time, the hole should be sealed up.

Besides, not having children allows me to thumb my nose at righteous left-wingers who are global warming bullies. By my wife and I intentionally not reproducing, we have reduced our carbon footprint more than any one of the whining liberals ever could by paying voluntary offsets. Our not having two kids, who don't each have two kids, etc, results in basically 64 fewer mouths to feed in less than 100 years and it just keeps getting bigger after that. I win in the 'I am so self-righteous I get to tell you how to live' wars that left-wingers love to engage in. They hate that.

Well, actually, my wife and I met too late in life to have any children. But it's a good story, eh?

[Bill Mattocks]

Unbelievable.

Work around them sometime and tell me I'm wrong. Humanity is not just a set of DNA strands, it is a personal characteristic.

[harlan]

And yet, if I were to come onto a board and state that through my experiences, Republicans were baser than dirt, obviously non-human, I doubt I could get away with publicly spouting such ignorance; Intolerance is the path to fascism.

[Bill Mattocks]

And yet, if I were to come onto a board and state that through my experiences, Republicans were baser than dirt, I doubt I could get away with publicly viewing my ignorance.

What's your point?

[Daniel Sullivan]

No, I have no children. I was fortunate - although I am the eldest child in my family, my younger sisters all had children before I married. Having experienced everything from changing diapers to tantrums to having the police bring the little hoodlums home in the middle of the night, I came to the conclusion that Mark Twain was right. Children should be kept in a barrel and fed through the hole in the barrel until their 18th birthday; at that time, the hole should be sealed up.
The vast majority of children are not the hoodlems that the police brought home in the middle of the night.

On another thread, you enumerated the benefits that your karate class has provided to you (Isshin Ryu, if I recall), most of which were not related to the execution of strikes and blocks. Many other posters have related the positive effect that martial arts have had on themselves.

I am not personally a proponent of any sort of mandatory martial arts class in schools; the public school system in this country has a lot of problems that need addressing, many of which, if addressed, would have a positive effect on the kids.

But I am not opponent of martial arts in school either.

Kids these days need all the help that they can get. A martial arts class will not make them more likely to fight. If anything, it may help to improve their ability to interact with both eachother and with authority figures, keep them in shape, and may even improve their grades.

I agree with your assessment of criminials, however, as I stated earlier, I disagree with your statement,

Teaching martial arts to prisoners is a bad idea.

Teaching martial arts to children in public schools is a bad idea, and for the same reason.

I disagree because kids are not criminals being punished. If it is a bad idea to teach martial arts to children in school, then it is a bad idea to teach children martial arts period. If it is a bad idea to teach children martial arts, then their turning eighteen does not magically change anything, thus it is then a bad idea to teach adults martial arts; there are plenty of criminals between the ages of eighteen and forty, probably more than there are juvenile criminals (that is a guess, as I do not have actual figures to back that up), and even our elected officials do not show particularly good judgement. Nor do the leaders of our financial sector. Obviously, adults make bigger blunders than the kids do, mainly because they have access to much more of the world than kids do.

If martial arts are beneficial to people in building character, the time to start is not when the kid is eighteen. And by having it in public schools, the kids who need it most (the disadvantaged who cannot afford to pay for class in a dojo) are then reached. In the long run, it might make your job as a police officer easier.

Daniel

[Bill Mattocks]

The vast majority of children are not the hoodlems that the police brought home in the middle of the night.


But they universally lack restraint and a sense of social responsibility - that comes later (if it comes at all).



On another thread, you enumerated the benefits that your karate class has provided to you (Isshin Ryu, if I recall), most of which were not related to the execution of strikes and blocks. Many other posters have related the positive effect that martial arts have had on themselves.


Indeed. It has not, however, changed my basic personality. I was both law-abiding and able to look at threats rationally before I began training in martial arts. Please note that although they are in the minority, there are a few people here whom I would term 'immature' to put it politely, who seem to be rather pleased with the idea of the damage they can now do to others.

In other words (to borrow an old IT term), garbage in, garbage out.



Kids these days need all the help that they can get. A martial arts class will not make them more likely to fight. If anything, it may help to improve their ability to interact with both eachother and with authority figures, keep them in shape, and may even improve their grades.


I'm sorry, I just don't see that.



I agree with your assessment of criminials, however, as I stated earlier, I disagreedwith your statement that, "Teaching martial arts to prisoners is a bad idea.

Teaching martial arts to children in public schools is a bad idea, and for the same reason."

I disagree because kids are not criminals being punished. If it is a bad idea to teach martial arts to children in school, then it is a bad idea to teach children martial arts period. If it is a bad idea to teach children martial arts, then their turning eighteen does not magically change anything, thus it is then a bad idea to teach adults martial arts; there are plenty of criminals between the ages of eighteen and forty, probably more than there are juvenile criminals (that is a guess, as I do not have actual figures to back that up), and even our elected officials do not show particularly good judgement. Nor do the leaders of our financial sector. Obviously, adults make bigger blunders than the kids do, mainly because they have access to much more of the world than kids do.


I maintain that children are like criminals in the sense that they lack any notion of restraint or social responsibility. In children, they typically grow out of it. With adult criminals, it is too late. Neither is to be trusted with great power.

It is not a question of punishment - I do not punish an alligator for being a alligator, but it is an apex predator, and to treat it like a pet is to court disaster. Children are not given driver's licenses and the right to drink for good reason - they can't handle it (as a group; I'm sure there are individual examples who can). Martial arts training is no different in my mind.

I do not think that children automatically become adults at 18, either. In fact, I'm rather fond of the notion that most people's brains don't grow in until after age 30, if they're going to grow in at all.



If martial arts are beneficial to people in building character, the time to start is not when the kid is eighteen. And by having it in public schools, the kids who need it most (the disadvantaged who cannot afford to pay for class in a dojo) are then reached. In the long run, it might make your job as a police officer easier.


Just to be clear, I'm not in law enforcement any longer - I left more than a decade ago.

As to disadvantaged youths, I will concede that you have a point.

[Daniel Sullivan]

But they universally lack restraint and a sense of social responsibility - that comes later (if it comes at all).
Yes, and martial arts certainly teaches more self restraint than any class in school does.


Indeed. It has not, however, changed my basic personality. I was both law-abiding and able to look at threats rationally before I began training in martial arts. Please note that although they are in the minority, there are a few people here whom I would term 'immature' to put it politely, who seem to be rather pleased with the idea of the damage they can now do to others.
And such individuals will find ways of doing damage to others without martial arts.


I maintain that children are like criminals in the sense that they lack any notion of restraint or social responsibility. In children, they typically grow out of it. With adult criminals, it is too late. Neither is to be trusted with great power.
I am not sure that a typical kid martial arts class equates to power. Realistically, any training that strengthens the child physically is 'power.' As is teaching them to read, write, and everything else that one learns in school. Ultimately, kids are given power bit by bit until they are adults and legally responsible.


It is not a question of punishment - I do not punish an alligator for being a alligator, but it is an apex predator, and to treat it like a pet is to court disaster. You mean to say that prison is not a punishment? Last I checked, you have to be convicted of a crime to go to prison, at least in the US. Also, the aligator will never be released into the population, whereas many prisoners eventually are. After all, not every criminal is sentenced to life in prison or capital punishment because it is a punishment, and our laws mandate that the punishment fit the crime.


Children are not given driver's licenses and the right to drink for good reason - they can't handle it (as a group; I'm sure there are individual examples who can). Martial arts training is no different in my mind.
Very different. A childrens' martial arts class is not even remotely similar to a drivers license or alcohol consumption. Class occurs in a controled environment under adult supervision. A drivers license allows unsupervised operation of a piece of equipment on public roads and the alcohol consumption causes a degredation of inhibitions, sensory ability, and and judgement.


I do not think that children automatically become adults at 18, either. In fact, I'm rather fond of the notion that most people's brains don't grow in until after age 30, if they're going to grow in at all.
By that logic, nobody should be in martial arts, issued drivers licenses, permited to consume alcohol, or permited to own any kind of weapon. Too much to risk. Needless to say, that precludes having a military or a police force; both involve martial arts and nobody under thirty is ready for the responsiblilty and it is only a possibliity that they may be ready if they are over thirty.

Daniel

[suicide]

I spent enough time working in law enforcement to realize that criminals are, first and foremost, predators who have realized that laws are made of paper, and only enforced if the predator in question gets caught.

They are fundamentally unlike you or me. They do not have a feeling of social responsibility, and they cannot be taught it. They are truly amoral, like animals, knowing neither good nor bad but only what they want at the moment.

Whilst martial arts training instills a sense of responsibility in many practitioners, it is a mistake to assume that criminals locked in prisons are subject to the same feelings we are. They are not.

I have never - EVER - met a parole officer who was a liberal, even though many started out that way and they will admit it. They know that all prisoners are liars, opportunists, con-artists, and basically as evil as evil gets. They'll do anything, say anything, whatever they have to do in order to get what they want. They're not humans, they're dangerous creatures who look at us exactly the same way a snake looks at a mouse.

Giving them the ability to fight more effectively is exactly the same thing as handing them loaded guns as they exit prison.

Spend some time around criminals and you will quickly change your tune. The only people who think they can change are people who never spent any time with them.


if you were hungry with no opportunities in sight no future what so ever and you and your family were starving what would you do ? i bet like all humans WHAT EVER IT TOOK !

there animals ? WHOA ! there alot of criminals that change there ways by way of religion they see the light , but the only thing is religion is not for everyone some even see religion as being weak , but i doubt the way the path would be seen as weak - and it comes with the physical conditioning man ! how can you loose...

showing them ma / sd is not showing them how to fight they know how to fight already its showing them how to defuse a situation.

believe me dude i know alot of ex cons and i work with a couple , i work construction im a carpenter in the union - and all of them are married now got kids got mortgages pay taxes own cars and boats , they take pride in the trade and i guess thats what keeps them out of trouble but not every guy coming out of jail has the same opportunity.

They know that all prisoners are liars, opportunists, con-artists, and basically as evil as evil gets. They'll do anything, say anything, whatever they have to do in order to get what they want. They're not humans, they're dangerous creatures who look at us exactly the same way a snake looks at a mouse. ( but so are alot of politicians ) only difference is they wear suits and ties and not hoodies baseball caps :whip:

[Daniel Sullivan]

if you were hungry with no opportunities in sight no future what so ever and you and your family were starving what would you do ? i bet like all humans WHAT EVER IT TOOK !
Unfortunately, most criminals do not become criminals because they are trying to survive or feed their families. The vast majority of criminals did not need to turn to crime; they chose to.

There are plenty of white collar criminals who bear this out. They may not be violent, but they damage the lives of others.

Most criminals are criminals because they either cannot control themselves for whatever reason (anger management, drug addiction, alcohol abuse, etc.), laziness, greed, or a combination of the three. Some just enjoy the thrill.

Daniel

[shihansmurf]

The aspect of MA that can help prisoners are common to other activities and programs, activities and programs that do not teach fighting skills.

This is pretty well the best reason for not having martial art programs in prisons. If the positive aspects of martial art training can be instilled by other means which do not happen to include improving the capability of performing act of violence on the part of people that have demonstrated an disregard for societies' laws then why would we not choose those options? Realisticaly if a criminal has already shown that they lack basic respect for conflict resolution and problem solving that doesn't involve breaking the law why would we want to arm them with a skill set that hands them the option of either perfoming violence well or better than they did before?

Mark

[MJS]

elementary - basics

jr hs - intermidiate

hs - a lil bit more advanced

As nice of an idea as it may be, I really don't see it working, for the reasons already mentioned. I havent read every post here, but the few that I have, have pretty much echoed my thoughts. The school systems are probably better off teaching what they do already.

[kaizasosei]

I've been searching for a while now, a little unfair of me. I have not been able to find it again to quote properly, sorry. But i believe that children should not smoke for the good reason that it stunts their growth. I'm thinking it probably does serious stuff to everyone but to kids it's hazardous stuff.
Same goes for alchohol if it drunk to the point of losing conciousness.

I gather however, it is better for society if kids smoke than if they are up to no good.

Actually i completely misread the title thinking that all martial arts schools should teach some kind of universal ma.? and i was sorof stumped on that

Actually i took judo in an african elementary school. i didn't realize that it was so special considering that in japan many martial arts are practiced in schools and universities.

[MJS]

Wrestling.

I'd say its as close to a universal martial art as you can get. Pretty much every culture has developed a form of sport wrestling at one point or another.

It's also very non-violent compared to most traditional styles, due to the lack of strikes and submissions.

That said I don't think it should be a required part of school, just a optional sport.

Yup, that seems to be the only thing taught today. For the reasons that you mention, ie: the non violence, I think that is why its survived as long as it has, although usually only taught in high schools and colleges. I've yet to see an elementary level school offer that type of program, at least where I live.

Usually once we reach college level, I have seen some martial arts clubs in existance.

[MJS]

they teach prisoners boxing so why not MA

They do? Where? When I worked for the DOC, any type of boxing or martial arts practice was not allowed. Now, what someone did while they were in their cell, ie: shadowboxing, etc., is different. But out in the open, nope, never seen it. Why would you want to give people, many of which are already violent, skills to become more violent?

[MJS]

thats your point of view , who knows MA might change peoples lives in there maybe it can be used as a form of rehabilitation ma works wonders for all human beings just because there criminals doesnt mean MA cant & wont make a change in there life. how many people did samurais & ninjas kill decapitate poison ambush etc. how many horrible things have you done that no one knows about and you do MA ?

Ummm...yeah, but like I always say....rehab is a 2 way street. There is no magic rehab program thats going to turn peoples lives around. If someone expects a prisoner to be rehab'd, then the inmate needs to have the desire to want to rehab himself. Some people, IMO, are beyond help.

[Milt G.]

elementary - basics

jr hs - intermidiate

hs - a lil bit more advanced

Hello,

No... I feel that the martial "arts" should be more diverse depending on and influenced by system, practitioner and teaching style.

I like "buffets". I like to have choices. Even if I go back to the same "dish" time after time, as I do.

I doubt there could ever be a "universal" martial art. Too many personalities, thoughts and opinions. In the Kenpo community alone it is difficult for all to "concur" on everything. I do not think a "universal" martial art could even be decided upon. My idea of "universal" may be different then others ideas of "universal".

Thank you,
Milt G.

[James Kovacich]

Unvisersal martial arts can easily be taught without it officially being a universal system. They are not the same, although they could be. For about a decade or so theres been a sloppy cardio version of it in health clubs across the America. Now it's pretty much mainstream.

Is it martial art training, yes, is it good, no, but it is universal. Basic martial arts can be done better than the cardio stuff and without styles being an issue.

[James Kovacich]

I spent enough time working in law enforcement to realize that criminals are, first and foremost, predators who have realized that laws are made of paper, and only enforced if the predator in question gets caught.

They are fundamentally unlike you or me. They do not have a feeling of social responsibility, and they cannot be taught it. They are truly amoral, like animals, knowing neither good nor bad but only what they want at the moment.

Whilst martial arts training instills a sense of responsibility in many practitioners, it is a mistake to assume that criminals locked in prisons are subject to the same feelings we are. They are not.

I have never - EVER - met a parole officer who was a liberal, even though many started out that way and they will admit it. They know that all prisoners are liars, opportunists, con-artists, and basically as evil as evil gets. They'll do anything, say anything, whatever they have to do in order to get what they want. They're not humans, they're dangerous creatures who look at us exactly the same way a snake looks at a mouse.

Giving them the ability to fight more effectively is exactly the same thing as handing them loaded guns as they exit prison.

Spend some time around criminals and you will quickly change your tune. The only people who think they can change are people who never spent any time with them.
Criminals are not predators. It's cops like you that makes the public go on the news protesting cops. You're a cop, do a background check on me and eat you own words.

[James Kovacich]

So many posts about criminals and prisoners and yet ignorance obviously prevails from lack of experience as one poster suggested they had. There is such a fine line between being a criminal and not. Some are proving that they don't have a clue about what they believe. Ever stole cable TV? Drink undersage and have an accident? The list is endless. Wake up people!

Many many people are rehabilidated. Even some of the worst are rehabilidated even though I would bet my money on it, it does happen. And as being someone who's done enough time to "know" what I'm talking about. The rehabilitation process is a total failure. I asked the courts for help beginning at the age of 23.

I sought help but they turned their backs on not just me but all young people who could of been helped. They go to jail and get more corrupted while inside That is being spoken FROM EXPERIENCE.

I was 30 when I finally got help but it didn't come from the courts. It came from my sisters new husban, a martial art instructor. I never quit the marial arts which I started when I was 13 but I did drift in a bad direction. If anyone, I could of been helped and I did ask.

The courts are a joke when it comes to what our tax dollars are actually being used for.

[suicide]

so you did 7 years inside ? what state ? and do you think if there were a way to learn ma in the prison system it would help the inmate tame that anger and resolve problems better ?

[Daniel Sullivan]

So many posts about criminals and prisoners and yet ignorance obviously prevails from lack of experience as one poster suggested they had. There is such a fine line between being a criminal and not. Some are proving that they don't have a clue about what they believe. Ever stole cable TV? Drink undersage and have an accident? The list is endless. Wake up people!

Many many people are rehabilidated. Even some of the worst are rehabilidated even though I would bet my money on it, it does happen. And as being someone who's done enough time to "know" what I'm talking about. The rehabilitation process is a total failure. I asked the courts for help beginning at the age of 23.

I sought help but they turned their backs on not just me but all young people who could of been helped. They go to jail and get more corrupted while inside That is being spoken FROM EXPERIENCE.

I was 30 when I finally got help but it didn't come from the courts. It came from my sisters new husban, a martial art instructor. I never quit the marial arts which I started when I was 13 but I did drift in a bad direction. If anyone, I could of been helped and I did ask.

The courts are a joke when it comes to what our tax dollars are actually being used for.
Great post!

I think that for the most part, when people use the general term of 'criminals' on these boards, it is the violent, predatory individual that they are referring to. Certainly, I am guilty of using the term 'criminal' in that way.

Your post did make me step back and look at things from a different perspective.

Daniel

[kaizasosei]

Hate the sin, not the sinner...



j

[James Kovacich]

so you did 7 years inside ? what state ? and do you think if there were a way to learn ma in the prison system it would help the inmate tame that anger and resolve problems better ?

(I need to tone this down to not become a personal attack. More like self-defense in a sense for what I considered offensive)


I never said I did 7 years in state prison. I said I asked for held from the courts and never got it.

I should of made myself clear also. I wasn't quoting about teaching MA in Prison. I was saying that cop "made a foolish statement" for saying that CRIMINALS ARE PREDATORS and thats why I added citazens protest against cops like that (that cop mentality).

In my 20's I had 7 DUI's. I was out of control and did not know how to get help. The courts would not refer me to programs and when my family called them for me they were told that they were more interested in older people.

After my 3rd DUI there was nothing to do but time. My 7th DUI I received 2 1/2 years which I did 15 1/2 months.

I don't know where you got 7 years in state prison from. Altogether I did at least four years of inside time. The '80's were a waste.