Physical Response to Groin Shots

[Kenpodoc]

Doc has repeatedly stated that groin shots do not make people bend forward at the waist. Over the six years I have trained I have noted two different responses to groin shots.

1. Light shots to the groin cause my opponent to bend his knees slightly, thrust his hips back and maintain his center of gravity bymoving his shoulders forward.

2. Hard shots to the groin cause the recipient to bend at the knees and drop straight to the floor. They then either gasp for breath and don't move or roll sideways to the floor groaning.

In neither case do they bend forward at the waist. I anticipate 2 other variables on the street.

A. The lack of cup may change the physiologic response.

B. An intoxicated or drugged opponent may not respond at all to a groin shot.

Do others have similar experiences to mine?

Jeff

[KenpoDragon]

Kenpodoc, I love it when people say that a groin shot will not cause a person to bend at the waist in a forward motion....because then I kick them in the groin,hahaaha!!!! I had a "street" altercation in which I delivered a right front snap kick to the guy's groin, guess what happened, he bent over in a forward motion. He then grabbed me with both hands, at chest level. I then delivered a right knee lift to his groin, he crouched down even further. Street scenarios and "studio" scenarios are 2 different things. If your only in the studio practicing that's one thing, as opposed to when you have to use it on the street, it is completely different. I respect Doc Chapel's opinion, but after all that's all it is, his opinion. What works for one person does not apply for everyone. You have to adjust for the variables (height, weight), you know what I mean??? Doc's a BIG guy, his "Kenpo" is not the same as mine, or yours for that matter. You have to remember, in the studio we wear cups (groin protectors), but we don't wear them out on the street, at least I don't, I can't speak for anyone else. It's difficult to say what this guy will do or what that guy will do, because every guy or girl is different. Hence the "Ideal", "What If", "Formulation" stages. In my experiences guys "do" bend forward at the waist in a forward motion, when struck in the groin, but like I said before these are simply my experiences, I'm sure you'll have your own someday. Why don't you ask "Seige" what he thinks about the old "Boot to the groin" ???? Sorry Seige I know that was copyright infringement!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!:asian: :asian:

[Billy Lear]

What is the trajectory of your kick?

What is the target?

Are you kicking him in the front of his lower abdominal region (a.k.a the bladder) with the ball of your foot, or are you kicking him in the testicles with the instep of your foot on an upward trajectory?

Are you snapping or thrusting your kick?

These things can really effect the results of your kick.

[kenpo12]

I have to agree with Kenpodragon, the one time I used a groin kick in the street (which was before I ever trained in kenpo) the guy bent or forward while grabbing his groin and then fell to the ground. And to answer Mr. Lears question, the kick was pretty much a forward stiff leg raise right between the legs, he actually came off of the ground a bit.

Matt

[Brenwulv]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc

1. Light shots to the groin cause my opponent to bend his knees slightly, thrust his hips back and maintain his center of gravity bymoving his shoulders forward.

Jeff

Just curious, how is this not bending at the waist if the hips move back and shoulders forward?

As for experiences, a straight shot to the front of the groin causes a forward bend in a person most often.

A kick that comes up from underneath, as a scoop kick, will cause the body to rise a little, and then settle, with knees bent slightly.

These are kicks to the testicles, not lower abdomen, for clarity.

This is the usual response that I have seen though the rolling on the ground reaction does happen occasionally. :D

Respectfully,
Joel

[Patty]

I have a friend who's a large animal veterinarian. He assured me that after having been kicked in the groin by cows, horses, and moose, that you do indeed bend forward at the waist as a basic physiologic response - partly in a subconscious attempt to move a recently injured area out of the path of further harm!

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Patty
I have a friend who's a large animal veterinarian. He assured me that after having been kicked in the groin by cows, horses, and moose, that you do indeed bend forward at the waist as a basic physiologic response - partly in a subconscious attempt to move a recently injured area out of the path of further harm!

I don't believe it. I just don't! I've always been under the impression that men do jumping jacks as a reaction to getting kicked in the nutts. Please say it ain't so...

Kidding ya know :D ,
Billy Lear, UKS

[Michael Billings]

You may do jumping jacks, the rest of us moan, whimper, buckle, bend, or fall. WE HAVE BEEN FOLDED, BENT, AND MUTILATED.

OUCHIE,

-Michael

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
You may do jumping jacks, the rest of us moan, whimper, buckle, bend, or fall. WE HAVE BEEN FOLDED, BENT, AND MUTILATED.

OUCHIE,

-Michael

Sounds like love to me. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[twinkletoes]

I hit another guy in the groin once in middle school. It was just a tap with my elbow (he grabbed me from behind, but was standing on something). He folded in half, grabbing himself with both hands, and then dropped into the fetal position, where he remained for a few minutes.

I trained with one instructor who had a lot of bouncing experience in NYC. He said he had kicked "dozens" of people in the groin over the years. Most of them doubled and eventually fell down. He did recount one story in which someone he had thrown out of the club kept coming back in. As the guy pulled the door open, he wound up like he was kicking a field goal and punted him square in the groin. He said rather than doubling, the guy just raised up a couple inches, like he was surprised, and hung there for a moment. He kicked him again, and got the same response. "The third kick dropped him," he told me with a grin.

~TT

[tshadowchaser]

I have to agee with those that say a person bends over. Even if you do not kick them but make a kicking motion, to a person not in the martial arts, they useually will bend at the waist as they pull their hips back to protect themsleves.
A well palced kick or slap to the groin area will cause most men to clutch the injured area as the bend ( almost looks like they are bowing). Followed by them backing away ,falling, or getting really angry. In the last case RUN

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
Doc has repeatedly stated that groin shots do not make people bend forward at the waist.

That's kinda odd to say that it doesn't. I respect Mr. Chapel's knowledge about kenpo, but every time I have ever been kicked in the groin or done the kicking there was ALWAYS a bending at the waste. Then came the groaning and whimpering. :btg:

[Reprobate]

I just grin, spread my legs further and say, "Is that all, you wimp!". Then I double over and project vomit all over his shoes...

[Doc]

As usual when having a conversation it is always a good idea to define terms to insure clear communication. I stand by my educational and personal experience assessment. However no one has yet to define, "bending over," or what constututes the "groin." And for the record I do know the difference between the school and the street. Also the size of the individual executing a kick does not alter the physical reactions of those being kicked. Last but not least, I do not see this as an issue of tailoring, what if's and other non related concepts. I further feel if I stick my finger in your eye, you will have a particular reaction as well, but that reaction is still only my opinion.

Two in the box,
ready to go,
we be fast,
and they be slow.

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
Light shots to the groin cause my opponent to bend his knees slightly, thrust his hips back and maintain his center of gravity bymoving his shoulders forward.

I'd say that is a pretty good definition of "bending over" And I'll go out on a limb here and say that the definition of "groin shot" that we are speaking of would be the testicles.

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
I'd say that is a pretty good definition of "bending over" And I'll go out on a limb here and say that the definition of "groin shot" that we are speaking of would be the testicles.

Assuming the definitions you choose to use, that would not be "bending over" in an anatomical sense. By the way, all humans do not have “testicles” and therefore your definition excludes more than 50% of the population of the USA, so I suggest you revise your definition.

The definition I use is;

“The “groin” is described as the area between the two (2) connecting points between where the femur attaches to the hip across the pelvic below the abdomen. Therefore strikes to different parts of the groin with different methodologies solicit different responses. As Mr. Lear alluded to.

The reaction I suspect you call “bending over” is actually a bodily reaction to external stimuli. Kicking underneath between the legs in the “anatomical groin” causes the legs to retract or buckle vertically, as the back straightens somewhat with the chin up. What I believe most consider “bending over” is a secondary reaction, after the fact. Kind of like people who said they “saw” an auto accident. But in reality they “heard” the crash, and turned there head and witnessed the cars immediately after the crash.

If you were standing and I asked you to pick up something on the ground that required 2 hands, would the movement you make resemble the reaction described by KenpoDoc? Both are not anatomically "bending over." One is an action, the other a reaction. This is a significant fact.

The distinction is great when considering additional target acquisitions and availability after a “groin” area strike in “real time.”

Driving the hips rearward is not “bending over” and the individual is not “bending” at the waist, and in fact will take at least one step (probably more) rearward to compensate for the loss of balance caused by the hip displacement, and would eventually be in a different place and body posture position than when struck directly between the legs upward.

For two people to convey information, they must be specific, and also speak the same language. - Ed Parker

Don’t make assumptions about anything anatomical. The body is in a constant state of flux as a living machine, and reacts differently based on such an infinite number of variables, you can never say “always” without defining those variables, which is sometimes mathematically prohibitive.

In my opinion, and apparently in KenpoDoc’s experience as well, the reactions and definitions you use are “different.”

General knowledge always produces general results! – Ed Parker
Beauty may be skin deep but, dumb is forever! - Judith Shienlin

[Brenwulv]

My definition of ‘groin’ = A roughly 4 inch diameter circle centered around the space between your legs, below the bladder, external genetalia included, if applicable.

My definition of ‘bending over’ = body positioning somewhere between this --> |, and this --> __, close to this --> \. Think of an American football player in a huddle. Knees slightly bent, hands resting on mid thigh, body position close to 45 degrees.


The reaction I suspect you call “bending over” is actually a bodily reaction to external stimuli.

Uh, I thought that’s what was being discussed, the bodily reaction to being kicked in the groin (being kicked as the external stimuli).



Kicking underneath between the legs in the “anatomical groin” causes the legs to retract or buckle vertically, as the back straightens somewhat with the chin up. What I believe most consider “bending over” is a secondary reaction, after the fact. Kind of like people who said they “saw” an auto accident. But in reality they “heard” the crash, and turned there head and witnessed the cars immediately after the crash.


But I can hear a crash and then turn to see the car careen into the barrier and/or roll down the street, I might not have seen the initial impact, but I can still see the ‘rest of the crash.’ You say it as if the initial rise and drop happens and then the guy sits there for five minutes before the ‘secondary reaction.’ If the rise, drop, and bending takes place in a quarter of a second, why bother separating them?




Driving the hips rearward is not “bending over” and the individual is not “bending” at the waist, and in fact will take at least one step (probably more) rearward to compensate for the loss of balance caused by the hip displacement, and would eventually be in a different place and body posture position than when struck directly between the legs upward.


Okay, let’s take this in the form of techniques. In Gripping Talon you get to the last portion of the base technique. From a left rear crossover you use the right leg to buckle the opponent’s leg as you strike to the back of the neck/head. The person’s body goes from (roughly) Fig. A to Fig. B.

.......O......................O (Head)<-- Force
.......|.........................\
.......|..........................\
.......|...........................\
.......|............................\
.......|.............................\
.......|..............................\
.......|............Force -->......\ (Leg)

Fig. A...........................Fig. B



So by using two opposing forces you make the person bend, or otherwise fall over.

Delayed Sword Thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3289&perpage=15&pagenumber=2) Now, in this thread you state that a front snap kick to the groin will not cause a person to bend over at the waist (remember my definition for this term, so we can communicate clearly)

From Delayed Sword Thread...

The initial reaction to most strikes is well defined in human anatomy by method and manner of execution and specific targets. A front "ball kick" I presume in your method of executing the technique attacks the testicles. The reaction initially will be more of a "squatting action" dropping the buttocks with the back straight and chin up

I agree that a front kick from underneath, or a scoop kick as I know it’s termed, will cause the person to rise up and then squat down.

However, a front kick that snaps horizontally, force on the horizontal plane, will cause a person to bend at the waist. I speak again of the Gripping Talon example. Slide that picture up the body, so the force is now against the groin.


.......O......................O (Head)<-- Force (Momentum of Attacker)
.......|.........................\
.......|..........................\
.......|...........................\
.......|............................\
.......|.............................\
.......|..............................\
.......|............Force -->......\ (Groin)

Fig. A...........................Fig. B


This simple diagram shows that the person will bend over (according to my definition). They may settle back a step or two, but that doesn’t mean they won’t still be bent over. Their torso won’t bend from the opposition of forces, before they step back, straighten up, squat down with knees bent, then ‘bend over’ again as your secondary reaction says they do.

But, if what you say is the ‘correct’ or common reaction then the techniques within EPAK that base strikes off of this principle (hitting the groin bends the person at the waist) are incorrect, and thus Mr. Parker was incorrect in creating the techs as set forth.

I’m still confused in how you see this.

Joel

[Doc]

My definition of ‘groin’ = A roughly 4 inch diameter circle centered around the space between your legs, below the bladder, external genetalia included, if applicable.
My definition of ‘bending over’ = body positioning somewhere between this --> |, and this --> __, close to this --> \. Think of an American football player in a huddle. Knees slightly bent, hands resting on mid thigh, body position close to 45 degrees.


Your definitions are incorrect from an educated perspective, not specific to a physical perspective, and anatomically wrong. I sorry you didn’t understand my explanation. “Bending over “ is not a Position as you say, but it is a physical act. An adjective if you will, not a noun. An action, not a completed action. For your football players to get to that huddle position they had to “bend over.” That is their heads came forward and down as they flexed the waist. If their backs were against a wall, they could still “bend over.” In human anatomy it’s not position but how you arrive at that position that defines the activity. Everything else is static posture. So since the original statement was about an external stimulus creating a condition, we are talking about an activity not a posture.



Doc’s quote: “Kicking underneath between the legs in the “anatomical groin” causes the legs to retract or buckle vertically, as the back straightens somewhat with the chin up. What I believe most consider “bending over” is a secondary reaction, after the fact. “

But I can hear a crash and then turn to see the car careen into the barrier and/or roll down the street, I might not have seen the initial impact, but I can still see the ‘rest of the crash.’ You say it as if the initial rise and drop happens and then the guy sits there for five minutes before the ‘secondary reaction.’ If the rise, drop, and bending takes place in a quarter of a second, why bother separating them?


I’m afraid you miss the point altogether, and for the record, You are characterizing it as a quarter of a second not I, and you still don’t seem to understand.



Doc’s quote: “Driving the hips rearward is not “bending over” and the individual is not “bending” at the waist, and in fact will take at least one step (probably more) rearward to compensate for the loss of balance caused by the hip displacement, and would eventually be in a different place and body posture position than when struck directly between the legs upward.”

Okay, let’s take this in the form of techniques. In Gripping Talon you get to the last portion of the base technique. From a left rear crossover you use the right leg to buckle the opponent’s leg as you strike to the back of the neck/head. The person’s body goes from (roughly) Fig. A to Fig. B.

.......O......................O (Head)<-- Force
.......|.........................\
.......|..........................\
.......|...........................\
.......|............................\
.......|.............................\
.......|..............................\
.......|............Force -->......\ (Leg)

Fig. A...........................Fig. B



So by using two opposing forces you make the person bend, or otherwise fall over.


That too is not bending over. You are “tilting on a vertical axis” and have introduced another element in the buckle that takes you further away from what the conversation is about.



Delayed Sword Thread Now, in this thread you state that a front snap kick to the groin will not cause a person to bend over at the waist (remember my definition for this term, so we can communicate clearly)

From Delayed Sword Thread...

Doc’s quote: “The initial reaction to most strikes is well defined in human anatomy by method and manner of execution and specific targets. A front "ball kick" I presume in your method of executing the technique attacks the testicles. The reaction initially will be more of a "squatting action" dropping the buttocks with the back straight and chin up.”

I agree that a front kick from underneath, or a scoop kick as I know it’s termed, will cause the person to rise up and then squat down.

However, a front kick that snaps horizontally, force on the horizontal plane, will cause a person to bend at the waist. I speak again of the Gripping Talon example. Slide that picture up the body, so the force is now against the groin.


.......O......................O (Head)<-- Force (Momentum of Attacker)
.......|.........................\
.......|..........................\
.......|...........................\
.......|............................\
.......|.............................\
.......|..............................\
.......|............Force -->......\ (Groin)

Fig. A...........................Fig. B


This simple diagram shows that the person will bend over (according to my definition). They may settle back a step or two, but that doesn’t mean they won’t still be bent over. Their torso won’t bend from the opposition of forces, before they step back, straighten up, squat down with knees bent, then ‘bend over’ again as your secondary reaction says they do.


Uh? If you want to use that definition why are we having a discussion? I already gave mine when I answered the question, and you disagreed. Supplanting your definition for my own stated position is not going to further your discussion. In fact if I did that, there would be no need to discuss it further. I have already said I disagree with what you call “bending over” and you actually are getting further from your own definition as you attempt to explain it in "technique terms?"



But, if what you say is the ‘correct’ or common reaction then the techniques within EPAK that base strikes off of this principle (hitting the groin bends the person at the waist) are incorrect, and thus Mr. Parker was incorrect in creating the techs as set forth.


Of course that’s according to your understanding. I know a bit about Ed Parker and his Kenpo, and the fact you draw on that information as your source is I'm afraid suspect in itself.

If an object that is hinged in the middle is standing vertically, and you push it backwards in the middle at the hinge. The top stays in place and the middle move backwards. It is not bending forward, it is moving away at the hinge. If you don’t see the self-defense implication when we speak of Kenpo, than I cannot help you. Lets use a synonym that may help. Another word for “Bending” is “flexing.” If I asked you to “flex over” would the movement you describe when the hips are driven back fit the word description?

Let me leave you with this, the crux of those manuals you are depending upon for your “knowledge” were written a minimum of almost thirty years ago with various updates and revisions over the yeas by various sources, and I have every version. The last version is 16 years old. They are conceptual and contain no specific information. If they are what you are relying on as your source then you will be lacking in many other areas as well. If you cited another perspective it would be different, but to discuss a technique and disagree “cause the manual said something" is a bit out there in this day an age. I know of no one that does that. Those are idea books to promote thought, and are not definitive on any subject. Additionally one of the reasons Kenpo kept evolving is because Parker would discover his own mistakes and rectify them. Ed Parker had a tendency like most humans to be wrong from time to time, and when he discovered mistakes or a better way to express or do something, he changed. So please don’t suggest I am somehow “dissin’” Parker because I disagreed with YOU.

But I’m not talking Kenpo, I’m speaking of bodily reactions so whatever information you think you have picked up from whatever source is absolutely anatomically incorrect.



I’m still confused in how you see this.


So I see, but at least we have something we can agree on. I thank you for the exchange, but I have exhausted my explanations on the subject for the day. I must return to those who pay my salary before they decide they don’t need me.

Peace.


Beauty may be skin deep, but dumb is forever - Judith Sheinlin

[ProfessorKenpo]

Cheese and Rice. Mr. Chapel, please get off your high horse of educated vs uneducated and speak plainly. The average person knows what bending over is, and we'll just go with that. If you're in a horizontal position, you sit up. Please



Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Bill Lear]

I think that Chapel is trying to define the differences of an upward vs. an inward trajectory on a kick to the groin.

If the kick to the groin is executed in a horizontal fashion (inward vs. upward) your opponent will fold, but their center mass will move way from you as well. These actions would occur almost simultaneously.

If the kick is executed in an upward fashion your opponent will more than likely hop up off the ground and then bend at the waist. Not simultaneously, but within a fraction of a second after the impact of the kick. In this instance your opponent would not move away from you, his center of gravity would cave, or bend toward you.

In either case your opponent is bending over, but the results of executing one kick over the other could vastly change the process involved in your technique.
:asian:

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
Assuming the definitions you choose to use, that would not be "bending over" in an anatomical sense. By the way, all humans do not have “testicles” and therefore your definition excludes more than 50% of the population of the USA, so I suggest you revise your definition.

The definition I use is;

“The “groin” is described as the area between the two (2) connecting points between where the femur attaches to the hip across the pelvic below the abdomen. Therefore strikes to different parts of the groin with different methodologies solicit different responses. As Mr. Lear alluded to.

The reaction I suspect you call “bending over” is actually a bodily reaction to external stimuli. Kicking underneath between the legs in the “anatomical groin” causes the legs to retract or buckle vertically, as the back straightens somewhat with the chin up. What I believe most consider “bending over” is a secondary reaction, after the fact. Kind of like people who said they “saw” an auto accident. But in reality they “heard” the crash, and turned there head and witnessed the cars immediately after the crash.

If you were standing and I asked you to pick up something on the ground that required 2 hands, would the movement you make resemble the reaction described by KenpoDoc? Both are not anatomically "bending over." One is an action, the other a reaction. This is a significant fact.

The distinction is great when considering additional target acquisitions and availability after a “groin” area strike in “real time.”

Driving the hips rearward is not “bending over” and the individual is not “bending” at the waist, and in fact will take at least one step (probably more) rearward to compensate for the loss of balance caused by the hip displacement, and would eventually be in a different place and body posture position than when struck directly between the legs upward.

For two people to convey information, they must be specific, and also speak the same language. - Ed Parker

Don’t make assumptions about anything anatomical. The body is in a constant state of flux as a living machine, and reacts differently based on such an infinite number of variables, you can never say “always” without defining those variables, which is sometimes mathematically prohibitive.

In my opinion, and apparently in KenpoDoc’s experience as well, the reactions and definitions you use are “different.”

General knowledge always produces general results! – Ed Parker
Beauty may be skin deep but, dumb is forever! - Judith Shienlin

I stand corrected sir :asian:

[Brenwulv]

Okay, Doc...


Your definitions are incorrect from an educated perspective, not specific to a physical perspective, and anatomically wrong. I sorry you didn’t understand my explanation. “Bending over “ is not a Position as you say, but it is a physical act.

Forgive me, I should have said my definition of being ‘bent over’ in the context of the discussion. But as the question was what happens when kicked in the groin I stand by you begin bending over to become bent over, as per my definition. So now I’ve discussed the reaction and the final positioning.

And though you seem to think I am incorrectly educated, I think my definition is the same as yours for groin, just not in so much ‘scientific’ detail.


The “groin” is described as the area between the two (2) connecting points between where the femur attaches to the hip across the pelvic below the abdomen.

Space between the legs, below the bladder, including the testicles, etc. if applicable. Same thing, Doc.


I’m afraid you miss the point altogether, and for the record, You are characterizing it as a quarter of a second not I, and you still don’t seem to understand.

No, I get the point, these people only see the aftermath, not the act itself, like those who didn’t see a bomb actually hit a building, but saw it fly apart as a result. My response was that the act and the result are for all intents and purposes instantaneous so why separate them. I used a quarter of a second to time frame it. There’s no significance other than a quarter second is a very short time.


That too is not bending over. You are “tilting on a vertical axis” and have introduced another element in the buckle that takes you further away from what the conversation is about.

No, the technique was to display a point, the buckle is just a force on the lower part of the person as is the force on the top. I said bend and not tilt so that I didn’t have to define tilt. I’ll know better next time.

Now, if it works on the whole body, it will/should work on the upper portion of the body, their top momentum meeting the kick in the groin. So really it didn’t take us any farther from the topic at all.


I have already said I disagree with what you call “bending over” and you actually are getting further from your own definition as you attempt to explain it in "technique terms?"

Haha, again, see above. I’m not any farther than when this started.


Of course that’s according to your understanding. I know a bit about Ed Parker and his Kenpo, and the fact you draw on that information as your source is I'm afraid suspect in itself.

My information is suspect then? Interesting in that I’ve done what I say and seen it done. You had said many times that there are no absolutes, never and always shouldn’t be used because reactions differ. Yet you speak of anatomical facts and this is how a person moves, etc. when speaking of Sub-Level 4 stuff. You said a kick to the groin will not cause a person to bend forward, implying it never happens. I’m just trying to see this from your angle and I just don’t get it.



If an object that is hinged in the middle is standing vertically, and you push it backwards in the middle at the hinge. The top stays in place and the middle move backwards. It is not bending forward, it is moving away at the hinge. If you don’t see the self-defense implication when we speak of Kenpo, than I cannot help you.

If their top comes forward or their hips move back while the top stays, they still end up ‘bent over’. The process to become bent over would be ‘bending over’.


Let me leave you with this, the crux of those manuals you are depending upon for your “knowledge” were written a minimum of almost thirty years ago with various updates and revisions over the yeas by various sources, and I have every version. The last version is 16 years old. They are conceptual and contain no specific information. If they are what you are relying on as your source then you will be lacking in many other areas as well. If you cited another perspective it would be different, but to discuss a technique and disagree “cause the manual said something" is a bit out there in this day an age. I know of no one that does that. Those are idea books to promote thought, and are not definitive on any subject. Additionally one of the reasons Kenpo kept evolving is because Parker would discover his own mistakes and rectify them. Ed Parker had a tendency like most humans to be wrong from time to time, and when he discovered mistakes or a better way to express or do something, he changed. So please don’t suggest I am somehow “dissin’” Parker because I disagreed with YOU.

Wow, I never said anything about a manual. You presume too much, Doc. My information comes from the techniques I’ve learned. From watching my instructors do them. From doing them myself.

Of course kenpo is evolving, but those things you stated were about techniques that came after the system was in stride. Specifically two yellow belt techniques that were created after the fact (by Mr. Planas I believe) as a source for the children to learn, then added to the adult course later still. Since it wasn’t created by him I’m sure Mr. Parker went through it all thoroughly and examined it closely before allowing it into his system. I would especially hope so since it was first intended for children. Doesn’t make sense to teach children a technique that, at least according to you, doesn’t work that way.

And again, the art evolves, however, since many techniques show or imply that to strike the groin brings the head down in some fashion, (bending or flexing or whatever you chose to call it) disagreeing with my response does show problems with things Mr. Parker taught.



But I’m not talking Kenpo, I’m speaking of bodily reactions so whatever information you think you have picked up from whatever source is absolutely anatomically incorrect.

So am I. Things I’ve seen and things I’ve done, things my instructors have done. Things other people have done that I’ve no personal connection to. You should know better, Doc. Absolutely and always are very similar, and you’ve said yourself, there are no always’.

My ‘anatomically incorrect’ information I ‘think’ I have is called experience. Granted mine’s limited, but it’s enough to question.


So I see, but at least we have something we can agree on. I thank you for the exchange, but I have exhausted my explanations on the subject for the day. I must return to those who pay my salary before they decide they don’t need me.

I’ve never said you didn’t have information that’s useful. I just don’t take everything you speak as gold either. Part of the journey is questioning things or people that don’t make sense. By all means return to your students, tell them I sad ‘hi’.


Joel

[Doc]

Originally posted by Brenwulv
Okay, Doc...

I’ve never said you didn’t have information that’s useful. I just don’t take everything you speak as gold either. Part of the journey is questioning things or people that don’t make sense. By all means return to your students, tell them I sad ‘hi’.

Joel

Good you're thinking, and questioning as you should. If I contribute to that process them I am doing my job. OK back to the ones that pay my bills, (work by the way) not students.

[Doc]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Cheese and Rice. Mr. Chapel, please get off your high horse of educated vs uneducated and speak plainly. The average person knows what bending over is, and we'll just go with that. If you're in a horizontal position, you sit up. Please
Clyde

Thank you Mr. O'Briant for your enlightening contribution to what was a stimulating intellectual discussion and debate.

[pknox]

I may be wrong, but wouldn't a natural reaction to a hard kick to the groin be for someone to move their hands to the region? I've seen this happen in sports as well, when someone takes a ball to the, well, balls, in a soccer or football game. It seems like an almost instinctual reaction. When someone's hands go to cover the area (belatedly), the shoulders would most likely roll forward, which would result in a bending of the waist. I would think this would be most probable with a scenario like a front snap kick, which would have more upward momentum than it would "knock back power" - in the case of a hand strike, the same comparison could be used with an uppercut to the groin vs. a hook. In the case of a side kick, where the energy from the kick is more likely to propel someone backwards, the person would most likely fall to the ground, and in my experience, they tend to roll on their side - even if they fall flat on their back. The same scenario as the side kick also seems to happen for the roundhouse (again, I'm only speaking of my experience). In the case of a knee kick, where we often assist the victim by pulling down on their shoulders or neck, they always fall forward, and often roll on their side.

[Doc]

Originally posted by pknox
I may be wrong, but wouldn't a natural reaction to a hard kick to the groin be for someone to move their hands to the region? I've seen this happen in sports as well, when someone takes a ball to the, well, balls, in a soccer or football game. It seems like an almost instinctual reaction. When someone's hands go to cover the area (belatedly), the shoulders would most likely roll forward, which would result in a bending of the waist. I would think this would be most probable with a scenario like a front snap kick, which would have more upward momentum than it would "knock back power" - in the case of a hand strike, the same comparison could be used with an uppercut to the groin vs. a hook. In the case of a side kick, where the energy from the kick is more likely to propel someone backwards, the person would most likely fall to the ground, and in my experience, they tend to roll on their side - even if they fall flat on their back. The same scenario as the side kick also seems to happen for the roundhouse (again, I'm only speaking of my experience). In the case of a knee kick, where we often assist the victim by pulling down on their shoulders or neck, they always fall forward, and often roll on their side.

All very interesting observations sir. But to be sure, the discussion and its differences are essentially semantical. In my interpretation the distinction is important from an anatomical perpsective. Clearly for others it is much less so. For me your description would be considered a "stooping" movement.

When you are aware that one creates different structural integrity parameters, open and/or closed cavities, and energy flow, than the distinction becomes monumental in proper execution.

But the again I have always said I am anatomical not motion based. This might be considered a good example of a significant difference philosophically in execution of "effective" applications. Blunt force trauma versus specifically attacking the body architecture. One of the reasons why some of us old guys can still function in hostile environments for a living.

Excellent points sir, and you are thinking. For me that is what this forum is all about. We all educate each other in some manner. (well, almost all ;) ). thanks for your participation.

[M F]

I have been struck in the groin a few times. By punches, kicks , baseballs, soccer balls, and softballs, and others. My reaction in all of these instances was as follows.
1-Knees bend
2-hips go back
3-head and shoulders go forward, ending up over the knees and forward of the hips.
In all cases my body was bent at the waist, and my shoulders and head were forward of my hips. I think by my definition, I was definitely bent over.

[pknox]

Originally posted by Doc
But the again I have always said I am anatomical not motion based. This might be considered a good example of a significant difference philosophically in execution of "effective" applications. Blunt force trauma versus specifically attacking the body architecture. One of the reasons why some of us old guys can still function in hostile environments for a living.

Very enlightening, Doc (and encouraging as well, as I am not yet one of those "old guys", but plan to live to the age that I can be one ;) )

When you say "anatomical", are you also referring to pressure points? I would think that a pressure point, while possibly hard to hit with precision and accuracy, would lend more to this "anatomical" approach, as a great deal of force is not needed for it to be effective. Therefore someone who is not able to generate a great deal of power could still use this as a defense.

My only concern there would be that as a practitioner gets older, in addition to power decresing, speed also declines as well. In my experience, in addition to precision, one has to have a decent amount of speed to hit a specific pressure point without the opponent being able to pull away before being struck. Obviously this is less of a concern with targets on the arms than it would be on say the neck or head, for example.

Other than that, could you explain what you feel the differeence is between an anatomical and blunt force approach?

Very interesting stuff. Excellent thread.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by M F
I have been struck in the groin a few times. By punches, kicks , baseballs, soccer balls, and softballs, and others. My reaction in all of these instances was as follows.
1-Knees bend
2-hips go back
3-head and shoulders go forward, ending up over the knees and forward of the hips.
In all cases my body was bent at the waist, and my shoulders and head were forward of my hips. I think by my definition, I was definitely bent over.

Thank you, what you said is the bottom line, and how MOST people percieve that action.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Michael Billings]

Striking to the groin elicits different responses as elicited by:

Angle of Entry
Angle of Incidence
Force
Taget actually struck

From the latest manuals from Mr. Parker that I have, a brief part of the NOTES section follows:

2. THEME: This technique was designed to teach you how to create distance while blocking your opponent's extended arm with your forward arm. You then can follow up with a longer-range weapon (in this case a kick using the forward or lead leg) to a target that is further removed from you. It also teaches you how to gauge long distance with your kicking leg, which enables you to properly gauge the distance of your extended hand weapon.

5. The transitory cat stance of your second move assures proper alignment, which in turn promotes accuracy. It also enhances the speed of your action in addition to allowing you to Formulate according to the prevailing circumstances.

6.Learn to fully take advantage of Marriage of Gravity when executing your last move (right outward handsword). (This implies the disturbance of the height whether through "buckling" or bending.)

Mr. Parker dealt with this as the ideal in the proposed new manuals, but he also noted 11 separate "What Ifs", and the ever-present "Other" as #12. This is not combining the separate "What-If's" into combinations of contingencies.

My point? Don't think that there is any one way to execute this technique, right or wrong. They have all probably been considered by lots of Kenpoist, in a myriad of situational What-If's. The discussion of being "Bent Over" is almost humerous in that I do not see anyone that is incorrect ... just some difficulty communicating with a "shared" language ... KENPOESE.

Doc Chapel's specificity leads to some people taking affront, or trying to call him to task. This is tough since his Ideal Phase is sufficiently "answered" on the mats and in his training ... as is Billy's & Clyde's. What If's are just that, and fun to play with.

The real issue is not the "reaction" itself, we know that from personal or observed experience, but rather the degree of specificity in the Ideal. It appears Doc Chapel's Ideal may be a little different from mine. But that does not mean mine works and his does not, nor vice-versa. Just differently with a little different context of terminology created to "explaining" SL-4.

So do we need to start an SL-4 Thread regarding the differences in language or how close we as EPAK Kenpoist can come in our frame of reference to Doc Chapel's additional concepts, theories, and principles for SL-4? That would be tough and we would have to agree to disagree. Doc may argue they cannot be translated, PAM, or Timing Signatures, etc. I think they can, but it would be a lot of work.

And all this generated from kicking someone in the STONES?

-MB

[kenpo2dabone]

It has been my experience that when I strike a person in the groin, I get a reaction that affects my attackers heighth and depth. That is all that really needs to be known to continue my technique. I can not rely on there hands grabbing their groin or their chin being exposed or anything else. If these things happen then great but I don't rely on them happening, not that I am saying anyone else does. I have found that knees do seem to buckle, the hip does seem to thrust back and the head drops. I have worked with some poeple in Karate schools who, when kicked in the groin while wearing a cup simply bend forward at the waist there legs stay perfectly verticle the hip does nothing and the hands do nothing. I don't concider this to be a realistic reaction to a groin strike wether it be a verticle or horizontal in exacution. We called these people, JOKINGLY, stone warriors. I have also experienced that with a groin strike that is horizontal and thrusting, the hips will go back and I will affect depth initially more the heighth and with a verticle strike more hieghth will be affected initially than depth.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

[pknox]

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
I have also experienced that with a groin strike that is horizontal and thrusting, the hips will go back and I will affect depth initially more the heighth and with a verticle strike more hieghth will be affected initially than depth.

kenpo2dabone:

Thanks for stating what I was trying to say much more eloquently. The trajectory of the strike (whether horiz or vert) definitely seems to have at least some effect on the reaction of the person being struck.

[Doc]

Well seeing how I am not most people, which is a compliment I think, the distinctions can be, and are monumental in describing movement. One understanding of movement is simplistic. "A move this way and B hits him with X." Another level of knowledge suggests that "HOW A got to the position for B to hit him is important."

With this fact in mine from a higher knowledge perspective, "bending over" can be viewed as a particular self initiated posture created by bringing the head forward and down. The final posture is a result of "bending over" and might be termed "bent over."

However if I strike a portion of his body that drives his hips backwards, although he may arrive in the end at a similar looking posture appearing to have "bent over," actually he was moved rearward and the head essentially remained in place and did not come forward, but adjusted to the movement of the hips.

If you were standing in front of a wall with your forehead touching, you could not "bend over," but could achieve the "bent over" posture by backing away leaving your forehead against the wall.

Why the distinction? The body architecture changes significantly between the two even though the ultimate posture "appears" to be the same, they are not. On the latter certain nerve cavities will be wide open for assault, energy flow is negative, the diaphram will be muted causing a change in breathing patterns, the ribcage will stressed, and the sub skelatal alignment will be dysfunctionally a negative posture until corrected, making it difficult for him to move - which of course I will not give him time to do.

So taking the two similar postures, each has significally different effective options from a self defense perspective. If I used the same options simply because of the ending "posture" one of them would be extremely effective, the other MUCH less so in comparison. So from an anatomical perspective as opposed to a motion perspective, they are night & day with no real comparison. Anyone who has a teacher who has and understands "chi" would know that. My teacher had mucho "chi." But they both work, but one is more efficient and effective. And for the record, when you learn to move anatomically, speed doesn't diminish even in a guy almost sixty like Ed Parker, - and others. ;)

[pknox]

Originally posted by Doc
And for the record, when you learn to move anatomically, speed doesn't diminish even in a guy almost sixty like Ed Parker, - and others. ;)

Definitely something to look forward to! Would a good knowledge of biomechanics also help someone to move "anatomically?" I had been thinking throughout the thread that you were speaking of "attacking anatomically", for lack of a better phrase -- i.e. using your opponents natural movement reactions to pattern and select your targets, and/or aiming for specific vital points due to a specific body reaction you could anticipate due to a previous action you initiated . It seems like you are also speaking of you yourself moving in an anatomically efficient manner -- I would think this would also make it easier to illicit specific responses, right?

Makes you appreciate how much combat can become more and more a game of physical chess.

[Doc]

Originally posted by pknox
Definitely something to look forward to! Would a good knowledge of biomechanics also help someone to move "anatomically?" I had been thinking throughout the thread that you were speaking of "attacking anatomically", for lack of a better phrase -- i.e. using your opponents natural movement reactions to pattern and select your targets, and/or aiming for specific vital points due to a specific body reaction you could anticipate due to a previous action you initiated . It seems like you are also speaking of you yourself moving in an anatomically efficient manner -- I would think this would also make it easier to illicit specific responses, right?

Makes you appreciate how much combat can become more and more a game of physical chess.

Exactly, but it does require a higher level of knowledge on the part of your teacher, study is very specific, and VERY effective. Students must have a level of patience. Not because it takes longer because it doesn't, but because the process requires learning how to move correctly, not just move. On the face, it may seem complicated, but it's not when the techniques are taught that way and your teacher knows how to convey the information. Lower students end up moving better and the foundations last a lifetime.

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
If I used the same options simply because of the ending "posture" one of them would be extremely effective, the other MUCH less so in comparison.

That depends on what you wanted as the end result. So one is not more effective than the other if they both result in the desired effect. Green compared to red apples Doc.

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
That depends on what you wanted as the end result. So one is not more effective than the other if they both result in the desired effect. Green compared to red apples Doc.
I apologize. Apparently I have not effectively explained what I mean. They DO NOT produce the same results and the effects are NOT the same. Apples to hand-grenades sir.

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Doc
I apologize. Apparently I have not effectively explained what I mean. They DO NOT produce the same results and the effects are NOT the same. Apples to hand-grenades sir.

I'm keeping my apples outta this! :lol:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
I'm keeping my apples outta this! :lol:
Orange you smart.

[kenpo_cory]

Well, the way I look at it this: If you got him in the "bent over" position and you don't give him time to react regardless of how he got there or what method you used to get him there, when all the fancy explanations are over he's still on the ground unconscious, and the job was done. How can anyone say, See my way was more effective cause his #456 cavity was pressed on his way to the floor right before I knocked him out? That's like comparing 2 moves that kill someone and saying that one of the moves are deadlier than the other. What is deadlier? Dead is dead. If what you used to bend him over with got him there without him retaliating and neutralized the threat without bodily harm to you, then it worked just as good as any other method produced to end in the same results.

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
Well, the way I look at it this: If you got him in the "bent over" position and you don't give him time to react regardless of how he got there or what method you used to get him there, when all the fancy explanations are over he's still on the ground unconscious, and the job was done. How can anyone say, See my way was more effective cause his #456 cavity was pressed on his way to the floor right before I knocked him out? That's like comparing 2 moves that kill someone and saying that one of the moves are deadlier than the other. What is deadlier? Dead is dead. If what you used to bend him over with got him there without him retaliating and neutralized the threat without bodily harm to you, then it worked just as good as any other method produced to end in the same results.


In my view, you seem to make some very large general assumptions about what you "can" and cannot" do on a consistent basis at your level. Well that's the beauty of this medium where everyone with a keyboard and internet access is equal. You are obviously entitled to your experience and your opinion based on that experience. Perhaps when you have more than a few years of experience, and maybe when you make black, your conclusions may change. I know mine did. That's why there is a Tiger and a Dragon symbolically represented in the Chinese arts, and American kenpo where Mr. Parker often spoke of the differences even in his manuals. Good luck in your experiences tiger.

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
In my view, you seem to make some very large general assumptions about what you "can" and cannot" do on a consistent basis at your level. Well that's the beauty of this medium where everyone with a keyboard and internet access is equal. You are obviously entitled to your experience and your opinion based on that experience. Perhaps when you have more than a few years of experience, and maybe when you make black, your conclusions may change. I know mine did. That's why there is a Tiger and a Dragon symbolically represented in the Chinese arts, and American kenpo where Mr. Parker often spoke of the differences even in his manuals. Good luck in your experiences tiger.

The tiger also happens to be my symbol in the Chinese zodiac. Just for the record sir, I respect your knowledge and in no way have I meant any disrespect to you or the system you teach.

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
The tiger also happens to be my symbol in the Chinese zodiac. Just for the record sir, I respect your knowledge and in no way have I meant any disrespect to you or the system you teach.

I never thought otherwise sir. I have 12 just like you in my intermediate classes, and a couple high ranking black belts whose eyes I open from time to time. No one is made to feel they can't challenge my assertions, but the trick is being able to physically prove it to them. The difference is in person lessons of effectiveness can be seen in a different light, and I've never lost a student yet to another teacher.

"Keep Kickin" :asian: