Korean Yudo and Hapkido Association - Thanks Don Roley!

[MartialArtist]

Another fraud found, and the source found no other than our Don Roley. ARK, I would try to split all ties from that organization as far as possible, as you may have unknowingly been involved in such an organization.

http://www.ohiotkd.net/taekwondoreporter/page5.htm

[chufeng]

There's a sucker born every minute...

From ARK's WebSite:


Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association

Founded by Grandmaster Jack 'Pappasan' Stearns. One of the oldest and most prestigeous Martial Arts Organizations in the world. Tell Pappasan that Soke David Schultz sent ya!

and this...


Unified Sokeship Association International

Founded by Soke Robert Gelinas, Conneticut State Representative for the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association and the International League of Martial Arts Masters. A fellowship of Grandmasters,Heads of Family,Founders and Sokes.

I'm sure ARK wasn't aware of the dubious nature of these organizations...but it is exactly what several people have warned about...I am not interested in debating anything here. I put this out as evidence of how easily people can be fooled, including ARK.

It does not detract from his abilities, nor does it detract from his newly formed martial system...I agree with Martial Artist...dump 'em.

:asian:
chufeng

[A.R.K.]

I appreciate the heads up. In regards to the USAI I have broken off any tie. I thought it had been edited out of our site some time ago. I will make the appropriate adjustments.

In regards to KYHA, there may be another side to the coin on this. I am waiting patiently to see the outcome on information that I have been gathering.

For example, the KYHA statement is that the medal was bought for the purposes of donation to the local chapter of the VFW. A Sgt with the Broward Co. Sheriff's office was supposedly Mr. Stern's student at one time and there was a falling out. The Sgt knew of the purchased medal and arrested Mr. Stern. Apparently it is a second degree misd to be in possesion of one for any reason without it being awarded to you. This may have been a vendetta type situation.

It should remember that Mr. Stern suffered a massive stroke prior to this incident taking place as well.

It is a fact that Mas Oyama stayed with Mr. Stern several times and put on seminars at the Paja Dojo in New York. In light of this I'm questioning the validity of comments that he never trained with/under great Asian Masters. Mas Oyama presented him a special certificate of appreciation along with photos of them together at various places and functions.

I recently had the displeasure of email communication with the president of a rival organization. He emailed me out of the blue with similar allegations...but did not sign it. After much inquiry I found out it was this 'president 9th dan mac daddy'. I asked him why he sent me the original email and didn't at least sign it [it was a link to the artical above]. He stated someone else asked him to, unfortunately for him, I knew the individaul he named. So I contacted this second person, who knew nothing about the situation.

Back to square one with Mr. President. He then stated that Mr. Stern had absolutely NO rank and never did. So I investigated further...and found out that he in fact did. Then Mr. President stated that 'well yes he did but only half of what he claimed'. Mr. Stern claims an 8th Dan after almost 60 years in the martial arts. Awarded to him on his last trip to Korea. I say awarded because with his stroke he is only a shadow of his former self. So this means that, according to Mr. President, Mr. Stern has held at least a 4-5th Dan in a National Yudo organization. I asked him how old this information was...decades. So in all Mr. Stern in fact did/does have rank, recognized by a legitimate organization and was awarded his 8th recently [a few years ?] for his contributions to the arts while in Korea.

After much discussion with this 'President' he then wanted me to join his organization and dump Mr. Sterns...at a cost of $100 per Dan recognized! I have had no further contact with this individual.

I do know for a fact that the governments of Saudi Arabia and Turkey rolled out the red carpet for Mr. Stern a couple of years ago when the crown prince requested him to teach their [Saudi]. There are alot of Middle Eastern MA's that are fully satisfied with his credentials. And look at the names on the site. If he has indeed hoodwinked us, he has done quite a job on quite a few all over the world.

If it turns out to be true then I can disassocitate myself and my system. As Chufeng has mentioned it in no way reflects on my abilities or credentials nor those of my students. However, I cannot just easily cast someone off without further investigation. There are to many inconsistencies thus far in these negative reports. Perhaps true, but it bears deeper scrutiny. It may be the case of rivalry and vendettas against a 73 year old disabled man that can't aptly defend himself. KYHA is quite a large far reaching organization that stresses fraternalism and doesn't charge hundreds of dollars. In fact many people have joined it for free. If Mr. Stern is ripping people off...then he's doing a lousy job of it by paying for them out of his own pocket. I know of SERVERAL cases in which he has done so.

We shall see...

:asian:

[chufeng]

ARK,

It sucks that Mas Oyama is no longer with us...
My teacher actually studied KyukushinKai and holds a Nidan in that system (No easy feet back in the 60s)...He would actually call Master Oyama to verify credentials of those who claimed rank in Kyukushin (it seems the concept of falsifying dan rank goes way back) and exposed more than one fraud...
It might have made this process easier for you...

:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
It should remember that Mr. Stern suffered a massive stroke prior to this incident taking place as well.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful or hurtful, but massive strokes incapacitate the person, they don't cause them to make outlandish claims of this nature... In fact, massive strokes (if massive enough) cause complete loss of ability to create such fancifcul stories, much less relate them to anyone...


Mr. Stern claims an 8th Dan after almost 60 years in the martial arts. Awarded to him on his last trip to Korea. I say awarded because with his stroke he is only a shadow of his former self. So this means that, according to Mr. President, Mr. Stern has held at least a 4-5th Dan in a National Yudo organization.

I'm going to say this, then let it go and never visit it in relation to this topic again...

At what point did anyone forget that he studies and claims to head a Japanese Jujutsu style, but is somehow "recognized" by a Korean organization that doesn't even teach the art Mr. Stern is being ranked in???

I am going to go to my handy dandy MSWord and make myself a 3d degree black belt in Muay Thai (the fact that such a thing doesn't exist notwithstanding), a paisley sash in White Monkey Kickboxing, and a salmon belt in Chilean Ju Joootsooo (the fact that I spell it wrong doesn't matter, after all, since I can spell it any way I like - I'm American! :D ).

Okay, I'm done...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[chufeng]

YiLiQuan1...his stroke is irrelevant...his claims preceed his unfortunate health situation.

I think his string of lies speaks for itself.
If someone wants to continue to allign with his organization, that is the individual's right to do so...but it lacks credibility.

Funny thing is, that Sterns may have actually helped MA in some ways by promoting it when it was more obscure...even though he was inflating his own standing in the arts (of course, that does not excuse his lies).

:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
YiLiQuan1...his stroke is irrelevant...his claims preceed his unfortunate health situation.

Perhaps I hadn't made my point clearly enough, since that was my point...

Stroke or no stroke, he was making claims to fanciful stories before his health had any impact on anything at all...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[A.R.K.]

It is indeed sad Mas is no longer with us for many reasons :(

And again, I'm piecing together information as a obtain it, as best as I'm able. I have to evaluate the validity of the sources. One claimed he never trained with Asian masters. To me, Mas qualifies as an Asian master. I've seen the photos and certificates of apprectiation of a much younger Mr. Stern. Circa the early 60's. Would Mas associate with a fraud with no credentials and teach in his Dojo? Would he have stayed with him in his home on two occasions? I wasn'nt there so I am left with investigation after the fact.

That is why I posted two threads in the TKD forums a month or so ago requesting information on some sources.

And again, if he is doing this for fame and money he is failing badly on both regards.

My point about the stroke was that the second degree misd happened afterwards with what looks to be a petty sqabble with a former student who happened to have a badge and a means of retribution. I wasn't there and can't say for sure...but I am in the business and I know what CAN happen :(

Again, I don't want to jump on any bandwagon either way. I will bide my time and wait for more info that is still out there. Either way, I taught long before KYHA and will continue to teach regardless. To me they are just what they claim, a fraternal organization. And I have met many fine men through KYHA.

Again, we shall see....

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

quote: Sure, he can get together with some of his “buds” and make up some bogus organizations and they could have a mutual dan promotion party until they are all 25th dans.



Originally posted by A.R.K.
You keep whinning about this. Anybody done this that you know of? I mean actually know of? Anybody here? Present some proof for a change


Originally posted by A.R.K.
I appreciate the heads up. In regards to the USAI I have broken off any tie. I thought it had been edited out of our site some time ago. I will make the appropriate adjustments.


When you first joined MT, which was only a short time ago, you couldn’t stop singing the praises of Jack "Papa-san" Stern and how he was so well respected in Asia, etc, etc. I told you I doubted his claims and you scoffed at me at. (re-read your old posts for clarification)……..now you want to bail on him.
I also find it odd that you keep “trimming” your website after things on MT are brought to light .

(Cultural note: The use of Mama-san denotes someone who works in the mizushobai trade, night district for all the non-nihongo-capable. It is not a deragetory term if that is the kind of business you are in…….NEVER call your mother in law that though. Likewise, “Papa-san” has the same nuance as “Pimp-Daddy” so I find it rather odd for someone that claims to be in tune with Asian culture would call himself or allow others to call him “Papa-san”)



Originally posted by A.R.K.
If he has indeed hoodwinked us, he has done quite a job on quite a few all over the world.

In my opinion MA people and religious fanatics are the easiest to “hoodwink” since they want to believe.


Originally posted by A.R.K.
It may be the case of rivalry and vendettas against a 73 year old disabled man that can't aptly defend himself.

Or maybe people have just caught up to him now.


Originally posted by A.R.K.
KYHA is quite a large far reaching organization that stresses fraternalism and doesn't charge hundreds of dollars. In fact many people have joined it for free. If Mr. Stern is ripping people off...then he's doing a lousy job of it by paying for them out of his own pocket. I know of SERVERAL cases in which he has done so.

If Stern is claiming to have won the CMH, been a prisoner of war, fought in combat he is ripping people off………the US Government certainly takes a dislike to such claims whether he is doing it for monetary benefit or not…….so much so that they can fine him and imprison him.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
One claimed he never trained with Asian masters.

From the article:

“Stern never trained in martial arts overseas. In sounds kind of redundant to say he was never in the CIA and never served with Air America.”

It says he never trained over seas.
I know for a fact he was never in Air America…….my uncle was Vice President of Operations for Air America and would have heard of him.

Stern may have worked for American Airlines......but never Air America.


Air America links to my uncle:
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art7.html

http://www.air-america.org/About/Citation_Medallion_Cachet.htm



Originally posted by A.R.K.
Would Mas associate with a fraud with no credentials and teach in his Dojo? Would he have stayed with him in his home on two occasions? I wasn'nt there so I am left with investigation after the fact.

I met Oyama on several occasions.
He was a “master promoter” that’s for sure, having done the “Pro Wrastlin” circuit in the US, as well as doing outrageous demos.
I doubt very much he would have cared who came to his seminar.

[MartialArtist]

The cruelest hoax was the one he perpetuated on his own students. While teaching in the Weston school, he charged everyone for membership in the Korean Yudo Association, who issued rank certificates. This turns out to be an nonexistent organization in the State of Florida. It has no corporation papers, no D.B.A. records, no bank account and has filed no tax returns. Certificates were worthless - just as the similar promotion certificates he supposedly got from Korea are worthless.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
If he has indeed hoodwinked us, he has done quite a job on quite a few all over the world.



“Hoodwinking” is when you play a joke on someone for amusement and people can laugh about it.

When people lie about their military careers, being in clandestine organizations they are not “Hoodwinking” people they are lying. Maybe they don’t get paid money for it but they get paid in unearned respect and unearned prestige……..which may or may not lead to some financial compensation later on. It may for example get certain doors open to them when without such credentials they might not have been.

They are riding on the good names of those who fought, suffered and died in combat, those who actually suffered unspeakable pain at the hand of the enemy in prison camps, those people like my uncle that actually did “the job” under extreme circumstances and hazardous conditions not knowing if they were ever coming back.

So you’ll have to pardon me if I think it’s extremely wrong when some “non-hacker” piece of :cuss: makes claims to something others paid for with their lives.:rpo:

[Matt Stone]

A hoodwink is a blindfold, hood, or other device used to obstruct a person's vision. The term is used to refer to the blindfold used in Masonic ceremonies, and it is from there that the term entered into common American usage...

Just a minor trivia note.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
A hoodwink is a blindfold, hood, or other device used to obstruct a person's vision. The term is used to refer to the blindfold used in Masonic ceremonies, and it is from there that the term entered into common American usage...

Just a minor trivia note.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Thanks for the “technical”:D translation of hoodwink.

Would you consider claiming to win the CMH an act of hoodwinking or something more serious?

[MartialArtist]

Well, it's kinda funny when there's nothing Korean on the website really, he uses Japanese terms and may I add incorrectly, etc. etc.

[Don Roley]

ARK,
You see now what I was talking about when I said there was plenty of stuff out there to make a reasonable person doubt you? I mean....geeeeez.

I took a look with the search function with the words "Jack Stern" on this site and found that you repeatedly seemed to have mentioned his name, mainly to strengthen your appearance of legitimacy. The standard form seemed to be along the lines of, "well, I have already proven myself to such luminaries as Jack Stern, so I do not see why I should have to prove myself to you. If someone like Stern sensei accepts me as a legitmate, skilled martial artist, I don't see how you can treat me as any less."

And then I found the article outlining how they guy you called "sensei" was convicted in a court of law for lying about something people have died for. His entire combat history, his claims of training, everything.. all lies.

So you see why I urge you to limit yourself to stuff you can point to in other people's experience? After this, the suspicious will always look at you as just a fraud who joined together with another fraud for mutual benifit. If that is not the case, you need to prove it. Yes, you need to prove it more than the typical person. You don't want to name your teacher who gave you your eighth dan, or give the name of the orginization it comes from. You give many excuses, but after you associated with a guy who was convicted in court like Stern was, how can anyone not look at you with suspicion? If that was not enough, there is all the little things that have gone here, like you taking the role of this orginization devoted to Korean martial arts and you do not even know the Korean equivelent of "sensei?" How on God's Earth can you scream at people that do not trust you with all these marks against your charecter? How much do you expect people to overlook?

And you are still defending him!! You want other sites that will back up what this one said. Fine! Just ask and I can provide them. Some of them even tell you exactly how you can check up claims for yourself on things like the Medal of Honor, Combat veteren status, etc. This is not a vedetta by a few individuals as you seem to be saying- this man is a fraud! My father volunteered for WWII. There is a Roley on the Black Wall in Washington. People have died and gotten less praise from you than Stern. And now you seem to be hedging your bets because Stern is 73 years old, not really in it for the money in your opinion, etc....... Good God, what are we supposed to think about the kind of person you are!!!


Of course, if you just renounce all claims you are not willing to openly prove in an open forum (yes- I am talking about the teacher who gave you the eighth dan you claim) and do not talk about anything from your personal experience, then things will be much calmer around here. But if you are not willing to bend over backwards to earn trust, this will hang around your neck like a badge of shame. Once bitten, twice shy and your "sensei" did something that those that lost people in combat can never forgive and continued with his deceptive behavior.


On a side note, this is not the first time this group has been brought up and the fact that Stern was a complete fraud discussed. E-budo had a thread in Febuary of 2001. I recalled it after Ryushikan and MartialArtist started talking about it being in Florida and used Japanese terms. A quick check of that site could have told anyone years ago that Stern was spitting on the graves of those who had died for this country.

[RyuShiKan]

Now tell us how your really feel Don!:rofl: ;)

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Don Roley


ARK,
...... If that was not enough, there is all the little things that have gone here, like you taking the role of this orginization devoted to Korean martial arts and you do not even know the Korean equivelent of "sensei?"


Just in case someone wants to make any adjustments to their website the Korean word for sensei is Sa Beom Nim.

Some other terms:

Kwan Jang Nim.....................Master Instructor


Sa Beom Nim..............................Instructor


Cha Ryot..................................Attention


Kyung Nae.......................................Bow


Jhoon-Bi...............................Ready Stance


Shi Jack......................................Begin


Ki Hap.........................................Yell


Kuman..........................................Sto p


Diro Dora...............................Turn Around


Baro...........................Back to Ready Stance


Do Bak......................................Uniform


An Young Ha Shim Neeka...........Hello, How are you


An Young E K Ship Sheeo.....................GoodBye


Kan Sa Ham Ne Da..........................Thank You


Cha Ma Nay Oh..........................Your Welcome


Piel Sung...................................Victory


Kuk Ki.........................................Flag


Hana...........................................One


Duhl...........................................Two


Set..........................................Three


Net...........................................Four


Dasut.........................................Five


Yosut..........................................Six


Ilgob........................................Seven


Yodul........................................Eight


Ahup..........................................Nine


Yuhl...........................................Ten

[RyuShiKan]

From CNN at this URL:

http://www.cnn.com/US/9612/04/medal.without.honor/


Florida man wears medal without honor
December 4, 1996
Web posted at: 8:20 a.m. EST
From Correspondent Robert Vito

FORT LAUDERDALE, Florida (CNN) -- Wherever 67-year-old Jackie Stern went in this south Florida community, he brought along his Medal of Honor, awarded by Congress to military personnel who have risked life in combat beyond the call of duty.

Speeches to Gulf War veterans, war stories at police stations and appearances at public occasions were all ripe moments for Stern to share his heroic past.

The only problem with Stern's highly visible patriotism is that he was living a lie. He had not earned the Medal of Honor -- he had bought it.

"He marched around in parades. He came around reviewing ROTC troops, even coming in here to get photographed wearing the medal," said Sgt. Dan Ciacciarelli of the Broward County Sheriff's Department. "He's pretty brazen."



For nearly 10 years, Stern bragged he had won the medal for bravery in the Korean War. He even went so far as to include a prisoner of war tag on the front of his car and a license plate on the back bearing a purple heart.

But in real military life, 'Captain' Jack Stern never made it past private.


Eventually Stern's public displays provoked suspicion among some in the community. His tall tale unraveled when police learned he had never even set foot on a continent where the U.S. was involved in a conflict.

Faced with the truth, Stern pleaded guilty to federal charges involving the unearned medal of honor.

In a federal courtroom, the former bread truck driver and polygraph operator apologized to veterans. He said his actions had been stupid and pitiful.

His son blamed his father's behavior on a massive stroke in 1985 that left him partially paralyzed.

Stern said he bought the medal at a military show for $800. The medal turned out to be authentic but not officially issued.

Stern could have been sentenced to six months in jail; instead, the judge placed him on one year's probation and ordered him to write letters of apology to the 171 surviving recipients of the Medal of Honor.


Reaction in Stern's community was perhaps harsher than the court's sentence.

"He did make a mockery of the highest medal this nation has to offer," said veteran Bill DeClemente.

"He made a fool of the whole community," added one woman who did not want to be identified. "Justice has to be done."


_______________________________________________


Gosh I guess CNN has a "vendetta" against “Papa-san” too.

[RyuShiKan]

Related story also by CNN:

Company fined for selling fake Medals of Honor

December 4, 1996
Web posted at: 1:45 p.m. EST

(CNN) -- The New York company that holds the government contract to make the nation's highest combat decoration was fined $80,000 Tuesday for selling 300 bootleg Medals of Honor.

H.L.I. Lordship Industries also will give the government $22,500 it received for illegally selling the bogus medals for $75 apiece at memorabilia shows from 1991 to 1994.

The family-owned company also could lose its status as a government contractor. Its only business is making medals and insignia. The Hauppauge, New York, company pleaded guilty before sentencing to a single misdemeanor count of making unauthorized medals.

Ward and Wes McAllister, the two brothers who operated the company and were responsible for the fake medals, have been fired and no longer hold stock in the company

In the 134 years since the Medal of Honor was authorized, 3,401 people have been given the award, most posthumously, for risking their life in combat beyond the call of duty.

[fringe_dweller]

Aren't you forgetting Do Ju Nim...?

Sorry - only korean word I knew that you hadn't used....;)

[Don Roley]

Ryushikan,
You found that out all on your own, and you are not even a student or potential student of Jack Stern?

Gad, imagine what the person close to him could find out if they bothered to.

People always say check out an instructor before you take the first class with them. To miss something on the CNN web site before you went out and served as a representative of a man like Jack Stern.... Well, the best I can say about that person is that I would never trust his judgement again without proof.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Don Roley
Ryushikan,
You found that out all on your own, and you are not even a student or potential student of Jack Stern?

Gad, imagine what the person close to him could find out if they bothered to.




Yeah.........imagine.

Of course I can choose not to believe a respected news agency like CNN since they, like many other folks, are on a “vendetta” to get Ol’ “Papa-san”
:rolleyes:

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful, and general.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Just in case someone wants to make any adjustments to their website the Korean word for sensei is Sa Beom Nim.

Some other terms:

Kwan Jang Nim.....................Master Instructor


Sa Beom Nim..............................Instructor


Cha Ryot..................................Attention


Kyung Nae.......................................Bow


Jhoon-Bi...............................Ready Stance


Shi Jack......................................Begin


Ki Hap.........................................Yell


Kuman..........................................Sto p


Diro Dora...............................Turn Around


Baro...........................Back to Ready Stance


Do Bak......................................Uniform


An Young Ha Shim Neeka...........Hello, How are you


An Young E K Ship Sheeo.....................GoodBye


Kan Sa Ham Ne Da..........................Thank You


Cha Ma Nay Oh..........................Your Welcome


Piel Sung...................................Victory


Kuk Ki.........................................Flag


Hana...........................................One


Duhl...........................................Two


Set..........................................Three


Net...........................................Four


Dasut.........................................Five


Yosut..........................................Six


Ilgob........................................Seven


Yodul........................................Eight


Ahup..........................................Nine


Yuhl...........................................Ten
Yup, that is correct. There are also a few more terms

kyo sah nim - Usually meant for just the everyday teacher helpers, usually 1st-3rd dan.

sah bum nim is usually meant for 4th dans to 7th dans.

Chung sah nim is a title usually given to 8th dans

And 9th degrees are associated as kwan jang nims.

[MartialArtist]

From what I've heard, the whole story on Jack Stern was pretty big all over the media, and a lot of people in Florida should have at least heard of the incident.

I mean, when people lie, at least make it believable. The Congressional Medal of Honor? WTF? And I was the 42nd president of the United States. And the humorous thing is when he told everyone that his son was a gold medalist in the 1987 Olympics... There was no 1987 Olympics, and anyone can easily check to see if his son actually did win a medal or was even in the Olympic qualifications via internet in a few minutes.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by arnisador
Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful, and general.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Sorry. My mistake. Please delete the post.

[Matt Stone]

Folks have said before that associations, organizations and other such things are the devil...

They may not be far off the mark.

Folks have said before that associations, organizations and other such things are necessary for the survival and expansion of an art...

They are dead on the money.

I think that the information provided above just goes to show that you never really know people, and that you should really research anything you are going to align your name and reputation with.

I had a MAist solicit me to join his organization, and to join other organizations he belonged to (apparently he got some sort of recognition for getting referrals). I checked them out on the internet, read their websites along with commentary on boards like this one (though not MT specifically), and decided it was best not to get involved with them.

Some folks don't do their homework, and take a person at their word. Some don't. Some get burned. ***** happens.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Please delete the post.

As per your request, I have deleted the post.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[chufeng]

It appears that the concensus is in on this particular issue...

Personally, if I'd been duped, I'd cut my losses and end the affiliation.

I got burned by a TKD teacher once...it took me six months to figure it out, but when I did, I split...

But I learned a valuable lesson about researching the background of my next teacher...and I exercised that lesson.

:asian:
chufeng

[Disco]

The ongoing battle royal has taken yet another turn. This time though, I think the party in question is not the bad guy but the victim. Yes, in hindsight he should have done some homework instead of trusting. The only crime commited was that of being naive. People have taken time to research for this material. The opperative word is time. How long has this conflict been going on and this just surfaced? The particular incident happened in 1996 and this is the first I've ever heard of it. Unless it was a major nationwide headline, it's my guess that I'm not alone in my ignorance. Common sense dictates that if ARK did know about this, aligning one's self publicly amounts to making a fool out of yourself. It would come to light, just as it has now. As Yiliquan 1 and Chufeng have pointed out, he got burned. Not for being deceitful, but for being human and trusting. Throughout all of these proceedings, from the very start, he (ARK) has stayed and not sheepishly trundled off and disappeared. All the changes he has made was due to constructive criticism. I applaud those who pointed it out and I also applaud him for making the changes so readily. If the man was harboring any decietful ambitions, there is no way he would/should open himself up to this constant scrutiny. Like all of us, we all would like acceptance from our peers. Some go about it a little more zealous than other's. That unto itself does not make someone a bad person. Just MHO
:asian:

[Don Roley]

I think the big lesson here is to not trust, but verify.

A.R.K. does not seem to want to believe that Jack Stern is a fraud. He seems to believe that it was some sort of trap by someone in the police department and his conviction in a court of law is not his fault. But the rest of us are pretty certain that Stern is a complete fraud. Whenever I am told to put aside my suspicions and questions and just engage in learning from each other, I am going to remember Jack Stern.

Honestly, this took me less than 15 minutes of checking on the internet to find the original article. I do even more checking when I am thinking about attending a seminar with a person. Were I to join and serve as a representative of an orginization, I would realize the responsibility that entails and really research the group before joining. Those of us considering teaching someday have a responsibility to those that trust us. We just can't enjoy the perks of being called "sensei" or "Florida Representative" and the respect we expect from such titles.

All this should be done before we open our mouths. To see someone come ona board and have almost all of the claims that can be checked shot down one by one over a course of months is just plain sad. Honestly, before we lecture others we need to make sure that all of what we claim is not going to embarrass us later. It is not just a matter of avoiding embarrasment, it is about actually caring about the people we claim to be trying to help by instructing them. Those that show little responsibilty before jumping into the role of wise 'ol teacher really do not earn a lot of respect in my book. If I make a mistake in training, I may die on the street. If I make a mistake in what I pass on to others- all of a sudden I may have multiple deaths laid at my feet.

There are fruads out there. What they teach can cause harm to others. They tend to need to have people pay attention to them and so they are louder and more active in trying to "help" others than someone who is truely self confident about what they are. So we are more likely to run across them in cyberspace and elsewhere than the guy busy trying to be the best he can. We need to be cautious and verify all we can. And when people refuse, like I am sure Jack Stern did when people asked him, we are totally justified in saying that this person shows sign of being a fraud. (I can here it now- "I told you what division and year my son won hisOlympic gold medal in- I have done almost everything except dial the number for you- what more do you need to trust me?") Stern was convicted in 1996, by at least 2001 he was back again fooling others. Frauds just move on to the next story when they are caught and think no one else will remember. No matter how many times you nail them, they always come back with another story to try to impress others. So we need to be vigilent a slong as they are out there.

There are too many sad individuals like Jack Stern out there in the world to give any kind of trust. Everything someone claims is their responsibility to verify. I wish we could do otherwise, but this example shows the trouble with wishfull thinking.

[A.R.K.]

Chufeng and Disco, many thanks for your posts.

I think Don's intent is two fold. First this bit of information, which I've known about for a month or so, diverts from him having to answer some of my questions in which he would lose a bit of face. It is a common debators tactic. Second, it is yet another 'shadow' he wishes to cast on me in the pursuit of his agenda :rolleyes:

Any negative light cast by KYHA affects me in the same way as the Kukkiwon and all of their dirty laundry affects a TKD practitioner i.e. it doesn't.

Yiliquan 1's statement is a valid one...


I think that the information provided above just goes to show that you never really know people, and that you should really research anything you are going to align your name and reputation with.

Very good advice. I've been researching this before anyone else here albiet after the fact. But better late than never. Don, you want me desperately to 'disavow' things so that things 'clear up' around here. I will not disavow anything because there is no reason to. You lying through your teeth and playing at debator's tactics such as 'handwaving', 'straw man' and evasion have not proven anything.

You state...


To see someone come ona board and have almost all of the claims that can be checked shot down one by one over a course of months is just plain sad.

What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? That is not a claim, that is a simple language mistake. And one cleared up quite some time ago. My rank? Where has that been shot down Don? I mean specifically cut n paste the shot[s]. I hope Robert's alleged phone call isn't the tid bit your hanging your hat on Don :rolleyes:

And you still have yet to answer my question about the Pangainoon offshoot comment. You said you would be convinced if I could show you the comment as stated on this board. I showed you and asked if, being true to your own words, you were convinced. I've asked 3 or 4 times now in as many threads. What is the answer Don? Why do you continually evade this question. And why can't you be honest in your comments? Why all the negative inflections in your comments? Why make deceitful comments such as the one above?

Robert, welcome back. I knew you weren't really going to leave. But a bit dishonest isn't it, saying you were only back to use the PM function and here you are posting :shrug: And thank you for not sending me more obscene email. And you've managed to cut down on the hate email to one a day. Perhaps your improving?

Back to the topic. Don states I'm defending Mr. Stern. Well, he's again trying to state something as fact that hasn't happened. What I have done is objectively post what I have seen and researched thus far. I have seen those against him lie or distort the truth to further their position. If their position is as solid as many claim, why not have the integrity to sign their emails? Why lie when asked who sent the email? Why lie about his rank status? Was he convicted of a crime? Yes he was...a second degree misd which is the same level as jay walking or catching a fish 1 inch under the limit. A second degree misd just doesn't impress me because who here hasn't done something in their lifetime that they couldn't be arrested for?

I'm a veteran, and a decorated one. [Don feel free to research it]. If the entire account is accurate, no I'm not overly thrilled. But I'm old enough to know there is a bit more to the whole story than just what is in some internet articles. Again, I will bide my time. And again, either way my credentials were set already and KYHA has merely been an avenue to renew my links with Middle Eastern MA's. It doesn't reflect on my system or abilities.

Cheers
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? ... I hope Robert's alleged phone call isn't the tid bit your hanging your hat on Don :rolleyes:

and


Robert, welcome back. I knew you weren't really going to leave. But a bit dishonest isn't it, saying you were only back to use the PM function and here you are posting :shrug: And thank you for not sending me more obscene email. And you've managed to cut down on the hate email to one a day. Perhaps your improving?

You just won't let this go, will you? I'm constantly reminded of the Carly Simon song that has as its refrain "you probably think this (post) is about you, don't you, don't you?"

Every chance you get, you remind everyone about the previous thread war between the two of you. For somone who says he is continuing to offer a hand of peace, your above statements sure sound bitter, and are fairly dripping with sarcasm. I thought you said you were only going to retaliate if Robert said something first - or are you now including preemptive strikes in your verbal repertoire?

Get over it. My patience and tolerance for this is wearing thin... I have been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt - I thought I made that clear in the chatroom the other day... But my desire to continue being as neutral as I can be when you behave in this fashion makes me really wonder how true your alleged peace-offering statements have been. Seems you are, with the above comments, trying to stir the pot once again.


Back to the topic. Don states I'm defending Mr. Stern. Well, he's again trying to state something as fact that hasn't happened.

Perhaps you haven't defended him, but you certainly did name drop quite a bit when your rank issues first came into question. It was "Pappasan" this, and "Pappasan" that... And that was only a short time ago.

So which is it? Do you still hold his recognition of you as proof positive of your acceptance and recognition by "masters," or does this make a dent in your argument about the worthwhile nature of recognition from outside one's own system? It makes a nasty argument against it, I think...

Can we let this die soon? I am teally geting tired of the whole issue...

I'd say "Gambarimasu," but the last thing I want is for this issue about Stern's illegitimacy (proven, I think, beyond a shadow of a doubt regardless of claims of medical origins for his misbehavior) and David's rank and lineage mistakes and misunderstandings, to "perservere." I'd like the whole issue to die a rather abrupt and sudden death...

:asian:

[A.R.K.]

Yiliquan 1,

I appreciate your criticism...and you are correct. Sometimes I react to what others write with more emotion than is needed. My apologies to you and the other posters here in this regard. However, I think perhaps Mr. Roley also needs the same lecture don't you think? After all he does seem quite intent to continue to falsely cast shadows with statements that simply aren't true. And he doesn't seem to be able to admit to his mistakes.

It would seem if I accept criticism and make the appropriate correction I get attacked just as readily as if I stubbornly refused to change. It gets a little tiresome as does vulgar email. Perhaps it will cease. We shall see...

More on topic, I again state that individuals and systems should not be viewed by any deeds an organization may commit. I believe my example of the Kukkiwon and a TKD practitioner are valid ones. Enough said.

Again thank you.

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? That is not a claim, that is a simple language mistake. And one cleared up quite some time ago. My rank? Where has that been shot down Don? I mean specifically cut n paste the shot[s]. I hope Robert's alleged phone call isn't the tid bit your hanging your hat on Don :rolleyes:

As I recall you put up quite a few posts regarding how "legit" that Soke title was and how it was recognised by your peers............like Stern for example:rolleyes:



Originally posted by A.R.K.


Robert, welcome back. I knew you weren't really going to leave. But a bit dishonest isn't it, saying you were only back to use the PM function and here you are posting :shrug: And thank you for not sending me more obscene email. And you've managed to cut down on the hate email to one a day. Perhaps your improving?




I can only contact Don, DAC and a few others via PM.

As per the "hate mail"..............sorry sport, it was you then sent it to me practically begging me to stop posting about you on this forum and asking me to be "friends" and when I refused you got hostile.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
You just won't let this go, will you? I'm constantly reminded of the Carly Simon song that has as its refrain "you probably think this (post) is about you, don't you, don't you?"

Every chance you get, you remind everyone about the previous thread war between the two of you. For somone who says he is continuing to offer a hand of peace, your above statements sure sound bitter, and are fairly dripping with sarcasm. I thought you said you were only going to retaliate if Robert said something first - or are you now including preemptive strikes in your verbal repertoire?




He has his panties in a wad because I "WON'T" accept his offer of friendship..........and quite frankly I don't see why I should since he has called me an idiot at least once in public.

I don't make friends with people I can't trust.
Schultz ARK has has never given me one reason to trust him so far. He has balked, hmmmm and haaaawed, side stepped, whined, & pouted when asked questions on his training.
He has repeatedly said what a great guy Stren is and how he was soooooooooooo respected in the MA and how his accomplishments were beyond reproach...........and as Paul Harvey says......."and now you know the rest of the story"


Since Schultz hitched his wagon to Stern's star he will have to have to deal with the backlash that comes with it.

[A.R.K.]

You won't accept my offer of peace because you are stubborn Robert. You whine about being called an idiot, yet have done far worse towards me.

I have never 'hitched' my wagon to anyone's star. I have presented the information that I have seen personally. Form your own opinion. Time to start acting like an adult Robert. Time to stop rehashing old things and spreading inuendos. My training is sound and has been shared with those that conduct themselves in a mature manner. Ask Yiliquan 1. I did have some respect for you until you began emailing me with profanity. I don't mind profanity, I work in a jail. But it pretty much opened my eyes to what you are really like.

Yiliquan 1 has some good advice...


Can we let this die soon?

You seem to be doing your share of keeping old issues alive. I'm not looking to be buddies. But I think its time for our bickering to end.

Any chance of you and Don heeding Yiliquan's words? It would seem that only a joint effort to 'let it die' will work. And not just here, but in future threads as well.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Chufeng and Disco, many thanks for your posts.

I think Don's intent is two fold. First this bit of information, which I've known about for a month or so, diverts from him having to answer some of my questions in which he would lose a bit of face. It is a common debators tactic. Second, it is yet another 'shadow' he wishes to cast on me in the pursuit of his agenda :rolleyes:

Any negative light cast by KYHA affects me in the same way as the Kukkiwon and all of their dirty laundry affects a TKD practitioner i.e. it doesn't.

Yiliquan 1's statement is a valid one...



Very good advice. I've been researching this before anyone else here albiet after the fact. But better late than never. Don, you want me desperately to 'disavow' things so that things 'clear up' around here. I will not disavow anything because there is no reason to. You lying through your teeth and playing at debator's tactics such as 'handwaving', 'straw man' and evasion have not proven anything.

You state...



What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? That is not a claim, that is a simple language mistake. And one cleared up quite some time ago. My rank? Where has that been shot down Don? I mean specifically cut n paste the shot[s]. I hope Robert's alleged phone call isn't the tid bit your hanging your hat on Don :rolleyes:

And you still have yet to answer my question about the Pangainoon offshoot comment. You said you would be convinced if I could show you the comment as stated on this board. I showed you and asked if, being true to your own words, you were convinced. I've asked 3 or 4 times now in as many threads. What is the answer Don? Why do you continually evade this question. And why can't you be honest in your comments? Why all the negative inflections in your comments? Why make deceitful comments such as the one above?

Robert, welcome back. I knew you weren't really going to leave. But a bit dishonest isn't it, saying you were only back to use the PM function and here you are posting :shrug: And thank you for not sending me more obscene email. And you've managed to cut down on the hate email to one a day. Perhaps your improving?

Back to the topic. Don states I'm defending Mr. Stern. Well, he's again trying to state something as fact that hasn't happened. What I have done is objectively post what I have seen and researched thus far. I have seen those against him lie or distort the truth to further their position. If their position is as solid as many claim, why not have the integrity to sign their emails? Why lie when asked who sent the email? Why lie about his rank status? Was he convicted of a crime? Yes he was...a second degree misd which is the same level as jay walking or catching a fish 1 inch under the limit. A second degree misd just doesn't impress me because who here hasn't done something in their lifetime that they couldn't be arrested for?

I'm a veteran, and a decorated one. [Don feel free to research it]. If the entire account is accurate, no I'm not overly thrilled. But I'm old enough to know there is a bit more to the whole story than just what is in some internet articles. Again, I will bide my time. And again, either way my credentials were set already and KYHA has merely been an avenue to renew my links with Middle Eastern MA's. It doesn't reflect on my system or abilities.

Cheers
:asian:
No organization is perfect, but unlike Kukkiwon and many other legit organizations, the KHYA is a fraud, organized and founded by a fraud, that practices fraud, etc.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Yiliquan 1,

I appreciate your criticism...and you are correct. Sometimes I react to what others write with more emotion than is needed. My apologies to you and the other posters here in this regard. However, I think perhaps Mr. Roley also needs the same lecture don't you think? After all he does seem quite intent to continue to falsely cast shadows with statements that simply aren't true. And he doesn't seem to be able to admit to his mistakes.

It would seem if I accept criticism and make the appropriate correction I get attacked just as readily as if I stubbornly refused to change. It gets a little tiresome as does vulgar email. Perhaps it will cease. We shall see...

More on topic, I again state that individuals and systems should not be viewed by any deeds an organization may commit. I believe my example of the Kukkiwon and a TKD practitioner are valid ones. Enough said.

Again thank you.

:asian:
Was Kukkiwon founded by frauds with the intention of capitalism and false allegations?

[A.R.K.]

MA,

In regards to the Kukkiwon and its founders, I don't know. Perhaps I sound like I'm Kukkiwon bashing and that is not my intent, accept my apologies for not being clearer. But will you agree that there have been many questionable situations with them? And the individual TKD practitioner should not be reflected in a negative light simply because they are a member. That is my point.

I am a member of several organizations for one purpose only, fellowship. Specifically KYHA in the light that there are wonderful ties to the Middle East. I enjoy fellowshiping with these martial artists and networking with them on ideas. If KYHA folds up shop tomorow I will still have many friends over there in which to corrospond with. I didn't join them or anyone for paper.

So again, please forgive the misunderstanding.

:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
MA,

In regards to the Kukkiwon and its founders, I don't know. Perhaps I sound like I'm Kukkiwon bashing and that is not my intent, accept my apologies for not being clearer. But will you agree that there have been many questionable situations with them? And the individual TKD practitioner should not be reflected in a negative light simply because they are a member. That is my point.

I am a member of several organizations for one purpose only, fellowship. Specifically KYHA in the light that there are wonderful ties to the Middle East. I enjoy fellowshiping with these martial artists and networking with them on ideas. If KYHA folds up shop tomorow I will still have many friends over there in which to corrospond with. I didn't join them or anyone for paper.

So again, please forgive the misunderstanding.

:asian:
Kukkiwon wasn't founded by frauds looking for money. Although without a doubt, there are some frauds who try to associate themselves with Kukkiwon, and there are people who want to make lots of money, that is not the point. I would not trust ANYTHING from an organization that was founded by a fraud. If his claims on other things were false such as his "skills" and his "mertis", then why should I believe his claims on skill? Would you trust the Salvation Army or Goodwill if it was founded by frauds?

[arnisador]

This thread is now locked. The reason once again is that personal matters that should be dealt with in e-mail/PM, or not at all, are being dealt with on the board instead. This is not acceptable, and we will be increasing our enforcement of this policy.

Please, take personal matters to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-