Battered Women and Martial Arts

[TKDman]

Well I just got done watching Enough, and I thought it was a unrealistic joke of a movie. Not to be sexist or anything, but I truly do not think that a smaller person could take down a larger attacker whether they be male or female. In extreme cases a small man may be able to defeat a larger attacker, but most of the time the bigger person wins. I know what your saying, "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog".

This movie was about a battered woman that took up some training and killed her husband in hand to hand combat. (About as funny as J.I. Jane) Sadly many women believe this could happen so they take up martial arts and believe they can become Super Women. I believe this is a waste of time for the woman, she needs counsiling and a handgun, not some MA training no matter what type it is. I agree with the man on 24fightingchickens.com:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/06_defense.html

What do you think about this situation?

[Kirk]

I don't know ... fist of fury's sifu is about 1/3 my size ... there's 2
b.b.'s in my school that are about 1/2 my size ... any one of them
can hand me my arse. Why? Because they're WAY WAY WAY
more skilled than I am. My size will possibly cause them to
not walk away unscathed, but nevertheless they WILL walk away.

Skilled woman vs. unskilled attacker ... I think the woman could
be the one to walk away. I've met 2 female kenpo b.b.'s ... I think
they could handle themselves very well. Besides their skill,
there's also the element of surprise. Most won't suspect that
they're trained.

Skilled woman vs. skilled man with weight advantage ... I'd hand
the victory over to the man .. that's why there's weight divisions
in most contact fighting sports.

[Michael Billings]

If I believed that, I would be hard pressed to teach what I teach.

I guess I may be a little more optimistic, of course I have seen some Kenpo women that now box professionally full-contact. I personally would not want to "take it to them" and I feel sorry for anyone who makes the erroneous assuption that they cannot hurt you.

This is probably a function of your experiences in the Arts and with specific female student in particular. I would not want to stand in front of any woman throwing hard knees, elbows and trying to go for my eyes, throat and groin.

Remember, what you saw was Hollywood. Serious effective training, over a period of years leads to serious committed students and martial artists ... regardless of gender.

Respectfully Disagreeing,
-Michael

[KanoLives]

I'll say it was an interesting article that made some points, but I have a point. Where I study we are being taught to poke and claw peoples eyes. I think if a woman does that to anyone no matter the size it's definetely going to have an effect on the attacker. Maybe it will only give her a couple of seconds to run but none the less it will have an effect. I mean seriously I think the most important part of Martial Arts is knowing your targets. It wouldn't make sense for a woman to try and go head up or toe to toe with a guy. Now if she can quickly strike him in the eyes, throat, groin then she does have a chance of continuing the attack or trying to get away from the attacker. I'll tell ya we have a female 2nd degree B.B instructor that teaches once in a while. From what I've seen she would be able to handle herself and has from a couple of stories she's told. But to say that martial arts is a waste of time and money I can't agree with no matter man or woman. This stuff has been proven through time and if it didn't work I'm sure we wouldn't be hanging on to it as if it did. Ya just have to be commited to what you will do. If you're going to poke someone's eye out you have to be commited to the act and realize that you are going to take someone's eye out.

just my 2 cents though.

:asian:

[TKDman]

"Battered Women"

Not amazons!

[rmcrobertson]

Well, "TKD Man's," argument comes under the heading of self-fulfilling prophecy. Women get taught by men who believe that women shouldn't be taught because they can't defend themselves against men, and hey, guess what? They produce women students who can't defend themselves, which proves that women shouldn't be taught because they can't...

I also really enjoy the fantasies that a) all men in martial arts are able to defend themselves no matter what, b) men are naturally superior ("superior spatial perception," my foot), c) size doesn't matter for men, but it does for women...

I probably couldn't defend myself against some of the big guys I've met any better than TKD says women can defend themselves. I too would have to go after something soft and squishy and run like crazy...so should I give the belt back?

And above all, here's the basic fallacy: that self-defense is exactly the same as sparring/NHB "combat," in a tiny little ring.

Some years ago, my first instructor--female, 5'0" has a license to teach signed by Mr. Parker himself--read an article about a Seattle area woman black belt. Guy broke into her house, assaulted her while she slept. They fought for about a half an hour. He broke her arm. She killed him with the poker, which she fought her way downstairs to, apparently. Yep, I guess women can't.

[MartialArtist]

A smaller man may very well beat a much larger man if he has the skills. If they have equal skills, it depends on their physical attribtues like speed, coordination, power, etc. If those are equal, which is VERY unlikely, then the larger man will most likely win because he can exert less force to get the same result.

As for women, not to be sexist, but they are physically slower, weaker, and less powerful. They are built differently than humans, especially the hips (which dictate almost all motion). A woman may be able to win, but a 5'2" 120 pound woman vs. a 300 pound man... Not very likely, unless the guy is hella slow where the woman can just kick the guy so he can no longer have children.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by TKDman
Well I just got done watching Enough, and I thought it was a unrealistic joke of a movie. Not to be sexist or anything, but I truly do not think that a smaller person could take down a larger attacker whether they be male or female. In extreme cases a small man may be able to defeat a larger attacker, but most of the time the bigger person wins. I know what your saying, "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog".

This movie was about a battered woman that took up some training and killed her husband in hand to hand combat. (About as funny as J.I. Jane) Sadly many women believe this could happen so they take up martial arts and believe they can become Super Women. I believe this is a waste of time for the woman, she needs counsiling and a handgun, not some MA training no matter what type it is. I agree with the man on 24fightingchickens.com:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/06_defense.html

What do you think about this situation?
Anyway, I do remember me chatting about him (e-mail) and the topic moved to Bruce Lee. The man said he was overrated, I agreed. The man also said he was an urban legend who had no contribution to the arts, took steroids, etc. Hmmmm... Okay, whatever. His example of how a smaller man can't beat a larger man was that his 2-year old can't hit hard enough to hurt him. :rolleyes:

[sweeper]

uhm.. I presume you mean meninstead of humans right? :-p

Never saw enough because I figured it would be stupid.. as someone who knows a little about fighting hollywood fighting never looks good to me, so unless it is suppoed to be a spectacle like in the matrix, I tend not to like it.

as to the article, made some sence.. I think there is a large diffrence between martial art and self deffence.. they are two seperate issues only related in as much as someone may hit someone else in either catagory.. now some MA schools teach self deffence or psudo self deffence, but still there is not nessisaraly a direct relation..

As to women and men beating each other up.. If a big guy has absolutly no skill in fighting my bet is on a skilled smaller opponant.. If the big guy does have skill and experience, the odds are greatly against the smaller person.. If the attacker has a knife odds are near rock bottom for deffender, even lower if the attacke ris good with a knife.. Women aren't structured as well for some physical activities as men.. It realy deppends.. Just look at recreational sports, compare womens college soccer to mens college soccer, or womens sprint times to mens.. now in middle and long distances women start to catch up to men in track, but some things (like shotputt or hammer throw) men are just gona dominate at..

But for a self deffence situation that doesn't involve a weapon women don't need to best a man in an all out match, they just have to make the guy deside it isn't worth it. So going all out like you are gona kill the guy could make them change their mind.

I think better advise would be to carry a knife or a pen or some sort of small legal weapon that you can keep in your hand anywhere where it's posable you are gona get attacked.. know how to use whatever it is, that will be even more intimidating.. And of course be very aware of everything around you.

What I do not agree with is the suprise responce thing.. I can be a little jumpy myself and I have almost hit a few people who snuck up on me.. But anyone should be able to analyse a threat almost instantly.. To give an example I think I have braught up before.. a wial ago My freind came over to my house.. My brother didn't tell me he was comming over and I didn't know. I heard someone come in and keys jingle and figgured it was my mother returning from work, he quietly opened my door (my back was to the door using my computer) and I assummed it was my mother going to ask me how school went.. He screamed wial holding a 3 ring binder over his head, I jumped out of my chair, spun and almost took his head off.. but I dropped my arm before I hit him because In that split second of major suprise ("there's a screaming man behind me in my home"), in the time it took me to whip around and almost hit him I recognised his face saw he was only holding a book and realised there was no threat. I'm always jumpy when I don't realise there is someone behind me than there is some indication that there is (usualy jumping around) But I have never hurt someone.. although if someone were to present a legitimate threat from past experience I'm fairly confident I could meet their challenge although perhaps not in a psychologicly optimal condition.

[Patty]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
As for women, not to be sexist, but they are physically slower, weaker, and less powerful. They are built differently than humans, especially the hips (which dictate almost all motion). A woman may be able to win, but a 5'2" 120 pound woman vs. a 300 pound man... Not very likely, unless the guy is hella slow where the woman can just kick the guy so he can no longer have children.

I'm sorry, I'm not normally one to get on a soap box, but now you've pissed me off. What exactly do you mean when you say that women are built differently than HUMANS? As for whether or not a woman could conceivably take on a male attacker who outweighs her, is quicker, more powerful, ya da, ya da, ya da... I have been physically attacked on two seperate occasions by men. The first was by a group of males, the second was by a single attacker. After a lot of hard work with my teachers/trainers, I am fully confidant that I could take on either scenario again and come out the winner. Why? Because we have enacted various scenarious with multiple complications on any number of occasions that take into account any number of variations, (i.e. height, strength, build, speed, determination, etc. of the attacker) and I would happily kill before becoming a victim again. That's probably the number one thing women have to overcome - we are taught to be "nice". I've been described as being an "iron fist in a velvet glove". I still come across as nice, but don't cross me or I WILL HURT YOU. Don't even think of hurting someone I love, or the same philosophy applies.

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by TKDman
Not to be sexist or anything, but I truly do not think that a smaller person could take down a larger attacker whether they be male or female. In extreme cases a small man may be able to defeat a larger attacker, but most of the time the bigger person wins. I know what your saying, "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog".

What do you think about this situation?


I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

A smaller female can definitely take out a larger male. I've done it.

The ONLY reasons I was able to do it were that I had:

1. the element of surprise. he wasn't expecting me to fight back.
2. a heck of a lot of adrenaline. I saw it coming, but didn't know how to stop it.
3. ten years of kenpo training that took over when I panicked
4. a heck of a lot of dumb luck.

Do not underestimate a frightened opponent who is backed up against a wall (in my case, literally).

The thing is... If I hadn't spent 10 years training in martial arts, I wouldn't have had the option of using it. What I did wasn't "ideal phase" kenpo. But it was kenpo, and it worked. I wasn't thinking about using kenpo when I did it. I wasn't thinking anything at all. The world went into slow motion, and the targets were just...there. Soft tissue targets don't require a lot of brute strength.

Martial arts for women isn't going to make you a UFC fighter, or a bar brawler or whatever. Its that last ditch gotta-do-something-or-I'm-gonna-die weapon. Its there when you are by yourself in a bad situation with no one out there to come to your rescue. It may or may not work. If it doesn't, you're probably not going to be any worse off in the end than if you did nothing. If it does work, you might end up like me... walking away with an injured wrist, but not raped or murdered, with the other guy out cold on the concrete.

respectfully,

-N-

[Damian Mavis]

TKDman... are you saying that no woman anywere can beat up a man? Or are you just saying that such women are rare? Because even fighting chicken guy doesn't say "ALL women" and on top of that I read about, hear about and have seen women beat the crap out of men many times. I think it's rare but I know for a fact that it's possible and been done many times. If you refuse to accept that there are women capable of such things I think you need to do some research.

Martial Artist, was that a mistake when you inferred that women weren't actually human? haha I think you just pissed off oh... I don't know...over a billion people.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Patty
I'm sorry, I'm not normally one to get on a soap box, but now you've pissed me off. What exactly do you mean when you say that women are built differently than HUMANS? As for whether or not a woman could conceivably take on a male attacker who outweighs her, is quicker, more powerful, ya da, ya da, ya da... I have been physically attacked on two seperate occasions by men. The first was by a group of males, the second was by a single attacker. After a lot of hard work with my teachers/trainers, I am fully confidant that I could take on either scenario again and come out the winner. Why? Because we have enacted various scenarious with multiple complications on any number of occasions that take into account any number of variations, (i.e. height, strength, build, speed, determination, etc. of the attacker) and I would happily kill before becoming a victim again. That's probably the number one thing women have to overcome - we are taught to be "nice". I've been described as being an "iron fist in a velvet glove". I still come across as nice, but don't cross me or I WILL HURT YOU. Don't even think of hurting someone I love, or the same philosophy applies.
OOPS! MY MISTAKE.

I meant built differently than men... Sorry, it wasn't intentional!

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
TKDman... are you saying that no woman anywere can beat up a man? Or are you just saying that such women are rare? Because even fighting chicken guy doesn't say "ALL women" and on top of that I read about, hear about and have seen women beat the crap out of men many times. I think it's rare but I know for a fact that it's possible and been done many times. If you refuse to accept that there are women capable of such things I think you need to do some research.

Martial Artist, was that a mistake when you inferred that women weren't actually human? haha I think you just pissed off oh... I don't know...over a billion people.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
LOL, I'm sorry. I meant men, not human.

[Bob Hubbard]

See folks, theres nothing 'human' about 'men'. :D

:rofl:

[rmcrobertson]

Nope, no good. Ya meant the binary opposition, "women," vs. "humans," as the remainder of your post makes clear.

One thing to keep in mind is that men get to define what "strength," means, then turn around and claim that women don't have any. By some measures--ability to tolerate pain, for example, which might be considered important in self-defense--women are suspected to be superior. They certainly get on martial arts forums and complain about men a lot less.

I'd be willing to let the other respondents arguments stand, though I'd be interested to know what folks think about a) the way men sometimes undercut women's training in the martial arts on the grounds that they're "not strong enough," or "too small," or whatever (I happen to know a martial artist who's about 4'11" and he is as good a martial artist as I'll ever see anywhere, and quite capable of defending himself against a guy I know who's 6'9" and a second degree BB), or b) the fact that not all male BBs are equally good at everything in the martial arts, either...and shouldn't quit training. I mean, Bill Wallace will always be outta my league...should I give the belt back?

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

A smaller female can definitely take out a larger male. I've done it.

<snip>


I agree with Nightingale - as long as the woman isn't built really really tiny (obviously there are limits, a woman with an almost child-like physique is going to struggle to take a guy out) she can totally take out a grown man.

In Enough, she basically batters him to death if I remember rightly, and in this sense I'm not saying it would work, but as Nightingale said, she used her kenpo to strike soft targets, which is exactly th right thing to do. Take out a guy's eyes, and he can't see you to hit you, take away his breath, and he has no strength to hit you, take away his knees, and he has no legs to kick you....

I'm sure that most women in Martial Arts believe that they can use what they're learning, and it's this self confidence that is likely to let them do just that. Certainly when I teach my Kenpo class, I wouldn't be able to lie to all my female students - they know I'm teaching them good stuff and also that I'm telling them the truth about it.

Ian.

[FST]

Some time ago I read an editorial written by a martial arts instructor in which he discussed a change in the mentality he used to teach women and men. Originally, the women trained from a more sport approach and when they fought against bigger more skilled men they did poorly. They had the goal to defeat the opponent and this required that they continue to fight and go toe to toe. He then changed the mentality to one of escape rather than defeat. When this approach was used the women did much better against bigger and more skilled opponents with the goal of escape. In fact it worked so well that he now teaches this mentality to his men as well. If a woman (or man) focus is based on escape from the violent encounter then a smaller person can succeed against a larger opponent. I use this approach and the women where I train do quite well against larger and more skilled men because they are not trying to beat them but get away from them.

[TKDman]

*Cough Cough Nudge Nudge* BATTERED WOMEN

I wanted to talk about Battered women, not another endless post about Male vs Female. I don't want to agrue with the women here and be smeared about the obvious. That issue can never be resolved as long as political correctness and hollywood exist.

I mentioned the movie "Enough" and how unrealistic it was. A potential battered woman joins the martial arts and beats up her husband. I think this gives battered women a bad idea...

Some battered women join the MA thinking they can become super women...

Well, lets hear it.

[Zepp]

Originally posted by TKDman
*Cough Cough Nudge Nudge* BATTERED WOMEN

I wanted to talk about Battered women, not another endless post about Male vs Female. I don't want to agrue with the women here and be smeared about the obvious. That issue can never be resolved as long as political correctness and hollywood exist.

Your thinly veiled sexist attitude seems to be what touched off the male vs. female dissucusion.

As for abused women, the least martial arts can do for them is give them some self-confidence so that they can get out of their situation and get themselves help from the right places. Can it give them the skills to beat up their abuser? It might.

Often the outcome of a fight can be determined simply by how motivated one person is to hurt the other. It's entirely possible that the built up rage of a battered woman could be enough motivation for her to seriously injure or kill her male abuser, even without any martial skills. Knowing how to seriously injure or kill with their hands or with nearby weapons wouldn't lower their chances. (Could be better than standing trial for shooting the bastard while he's sleeping.)

Are you really worried about a movie like "Enough" giving battered women unrealistic ideas? I think a few weeks in any legitimate martial art or self-defence class will set them straight. Most people know better than to trust Hollywood, even desparate people.

[Patty]

The men who batter their "loved" women are bullies, plain and simple. Bullies pick on those unable or unwilling to defend themselves - victims. Martial arts can provide self-confidance and useful skills that women can use to counteract the victim mentality. The look on a man's face when a punch expected to connect is blocked and "responded to" (whether with actual contact or not) is unforgetable. Once they realize that their "patsy" has changed the rules, it's amazing how quickly they are willing to change their tune.

[Touch Of Death]

My girlfreinds sister managed to get herself in a fight with her ex-husband just before they were divorced. She punched him in the face and he went balistic. He puched her with his right and broke his hand; then, he hit her with the left and broke that hand; not to be a quitter, he then kicked her and broke his foot. She didn't lay another hand on him and he walked away with three serious injuries, all be it self inflicted. The point to my story is that an unconditioned assailant is just that... UNCONDITIONED! and in a frenzy can be just as dangerous to himself as to his to his victom. OJ Simpson managed to cut his hand right down to the bone during his attack on his wife and pal. The jury didn't hear that evidence, I believe.
To suggest to a smaller person or female that they are powerless to physicaly aid an attacker on his way to self negation is, frankly, ignorant and irresponsible. However if you believe you can kick your way through the eight considerations of combat (kenpo term) I can see how you could come to that conclusion. Have a nice day Mr. TKD guy:) :soapbox:

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
However if you believe you can kick your way through the eight considerations of combat (kenpo term) I can see how you could come to that conclusion. Have a nice day Mr. TKD guy:) :soapbox:

Just couldn't resist a chance to blame this on TKD, eh? Sheesh :rolleyes:

[rmcrobertson]

Battered women are battered, in part, because of the attitude placing women as second-class...I was glad to see that this appears to be an isolated case...

[jwreck]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Battered women are battered, in part, because of the attitude placing women as second-class...I was glad to see that this appears to be an isolated case... I have to disagree. Battered women are battered because the are foolish enough to believe that they are second class citizens so they allow it to happen. My thoughts on the whole issue are:
1. Women are not the same as men, however women can be just as deadly as men.
2. Everyone should study martial arts, no matter what your home situation is. There are too many benefits to be reaped. However, you should understand that MA do not make you superhuman.
3. Some people here need to get their panties out of a wad because someone implied that men can beat up women. Its a proven fact that generaaly this is the case. There are exceptions, but to not recognize them as exceptions is just plain dumb.

Sorry if that wasn't pc enough for you but its how I feel, and more importantly, its the truth. Oh, and one more thing, anyone who thinks hollywierd would ever give an accurate portrayel of MA is kidding themselves.

[Cryozombie]

Not to detract from the thread about that lousy movie, or Add to or remove the sexism from the post...

EVERY PERSON, MALE, FEMALE OR OTHER, is different.

EVERY CONFLICT, Whether Armed, unarmed, etc... IS DIFFERENT.

MEN, AS WELL AS WOMEN, are battered EVERY DAY, Society just doesn't tell you about the men as often... And I am even willing to concede that the ratio is higher for battered women then men, but lets not ignore the fact it happens.

Guy X, mught be able to beat up woman B, who cant stop Guy X but she could take Guy C, who could beat up Guy Q who could take woman W... who might not be able to take anyone... But who's to say. Certainly no one here.

Oh... er... I digress...

Every Situation is Different. Period.

[sweeper]

uhm.. genneraly domestic abuse has more to do with psychological factors than physical ones.. just because a woman beats up a man in a domestic situation doesn't mean that man couldn't take her out if he had the motivation, the same applies to the reverse situation.. I thought you were talking about physical assaults in genneral.. If you are talking about domestic affairs, than anything that could make the abused attempt to deffend themselves would also bring about a posative psychological change that would probably lead to the situation being resolved in some way because that person is pulling away from a victem's mentality.

FST if everyone is concentrating on escape, doesn't that alter the situation in such a way that escape becomes unrealisticly easyer? I mean if I want to pull away rather than go at it, than I'm not going to press in as hard. Simularly if you are doing scenario work and you go at it with a competative mentality rather than an escape/predator mentality it seems that you are changing the situation away from a simulation..

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Technopunk
MEN, AS WELL AS WOMEN, are battered EVERY DAY, Society just doesn't tell you about the men as often... And I am even willing to concede that the ratio is higher for battered women then men, but lets not ignore the fact it happens.

I've seen that happen first hand actually, in the case of one of my roommates. He was never hurt seriously, but it was a pretty messed up situation. (Not to mention demeaning.)

[rmcrobertson]

If you'll look on this thread, you'll see the remark, "Because chicks dig assassins." While meant ironically, I assume, that's exactly the problem.

And by the way, women are far more likely than men--about 9 to 1--to be the victims of domestic violence. This silly claim that it's a problem everybody has is just one of the strategies by which men try to make women's discussions of reality go away.

The martial arts in the US are sexist as hell....that's the reality. Ask around. It makes it difficult for women to train, I hear.

[sweeper]

where did you get that stat from?

[Bob Hubbard]

Just a sidebar...the otherday in class, out of the 5 individuals who out ranked me, 4 were female. During the sparing part, they gave as good as they got too.

Just a side bar...:asian:

[KenpoDragon]

Sorry TKDMan, but I know some Kenpobabes that would knock the stuffin out of your egg mcmuffin, if you know what I mean. I am not saying that women are physically stronger than men, in general, but well trained are just as deadly. Isn't that what separates regular people from martial arts people, the knowledge of the fighting arts??? Skill given to anyone, man or woman can be very dangerous. Just because a guy may be stronger that does not guarentee his victory over a woman. In Kenpo we have the Dragon over the Tiger, it represents knowledge over power...you get me??? That is why we Kenpoists teach vital strikes, because EVERYONE is vulnerable in certain areas, i.e eyes, throat, nose, hinge of the jaw, groin, etc.etc. Oh yeah by the way most girls are generally faster than guys because they weigh less than most guys. Note I said most not all. This is very important when talking about "men" or "woman" , you can't generalize your statements by saying all, have you met all the women in the world...I doubt it. Look at female body builders, I bet a lot of them can lift more than a lot of guys out there. Just goes to show you that you can't say ALL guys are stronger than ALL women, it just doesn't really apply. Don't let your machismo go to your head, some girl might come over and knock it out of you.

:asian:

KenpoDragon

[Kingston]

lol who's seen that movie 'enough'?

that movie was pretty unrealistic. It delt with serious issues, but the circumstances where so unbeleavable that it was almost rediculus.

Perhaps TKDman would have had a better point if he was talking about martial arts in the movies.........

after seeing the movie i got the same feeling, perhaps a little different.........the movie made it out that if you train in self defence, you become some kind of super fighter.

its like the whole karate kid thing...."wax my car and paint my fence, then you will be a good fighter"

lol in the movie j-lo had only one month to train to kill here husband. They show some clips of here training, then without any fight experience breaks into here ex-husbands house, rigs it for a fight memorizes where all of the furnature was placed, found all the weapons in the house (lol of cource missing the fire pokers, which she thows him into...wich he of course forgets to pick up, even though he has no problem using a lamp, and is losing badly) she did that in one day.

lol there is so much wrong with the movie i could go on and on.

The movie CAN give ANYONE the wrong impression of martial arts.(that is if they have no knowledge of martial arts....)

even though there should have been no way for j-lo to survive that movie she did. That does not mean that other women are in the exact same boat as a character in a movie.

Anyone can learn how to defend themselves, but that takes time.
Of cource if a woman is getting beat by her husband im sure she would have to take self defence classes in secret(or not be living with her husband), i dout 'he' would approve of 'her' learning how to kick his ass.

basicaly it is like this, the movie sucked. But it was JUST A MOVIE!

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kingston
lol who's seen that movie 'enough'?

that movie was pretty unrealistic. It delt with serious issues, but the circumstances where so unbeleavable that it was almost rediculus.

Perhaps TKDman would have had a better point if he was talking about martial arts in the movies.........

after seeing the movie i got the same feeling, perhaps a little different.........the movie made it out that if you train in self defence, you become some kind of super fighter.

its like the whole karate kid thing...."wax my car and paint my fence, then you will be a good fighter"

lol in the movie j-lo had only one month to train to kill here husband. They show some clips of here training, then without any fight experience breaks into here ex-husbands house, rigs it for a fight memorizes where all of the furnature was placed, found all the weapons in the house (lol of cource missing the fire pokers, which she thows him into...wich he of course forgets to pick up, even though he has no problem using a lamp, and is losing badly) she did that in one day.

lol there is so much wrong with the movie i could go on and on.

The movie CAN give ANYONE the wrong impression of martial arts.(that is if they have no knowledge of martial arts....)

even though there should have been no way for j-lo to survive that movie she did. That does not mean that other women are in the exact same boat as a character in a movie.

Anyone can learn how to defend themselves, but that takes time.
Of cource if a woman is getting beat by her husband im sure she would have to take self defence classes in secret(or not be living with her husband), i dout 'he' would approve of 'her' learning how to kick his ass.

basicaly it is like this, the movie sucked. But it was JUST A MOVIE!
A J-Lo movie sucking? No way!

[arnisador]

The Search facility will turn up related threads, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2062

Many deal with Krav Maga.

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
This silly claim that it's a problem everybody has is just one of the strategies by which men try to make women's discussions of reality go away.



I'd like to see you tell a group of Battered Men that its not a problem for them, only for the women since it happens more often to women. Or tell male Rape Victims that they werent really raped because its just a strategy to make the rape of women not real since its statisticaly less likey to happen to a man.

I personaly take offense to your claim that its not a problem for men, having been severly beaten by a female roommate with a telephone over an argument that started because of my breakfast choice at one time and NOT fighting back for fear that if I accidentaly injured her BLEEDING HEARTS like you who don't feel that a MAN could have that problem would throw ME in jail for fighting back.

And as far as my Quote "Because Chicks Dig Assassins" it was a Trivia Catagory on "WIN BEN STIEN'S MONEY" making fun of John Hinkley for thinking That shooting Regan would make Jodie Foster love him. I laugh every time I think of how STUPID that is. Im laughing NOW. But I use it along the same lines because of the stupid misconception about my art that its all about "Assassination" When people start up about why I study something that is "Only for Killing" that's my reply to them. Its not being Sexist... Its Mocking.

[Damian Mavis]

Rmcrobertson, you need to chill out. After going through this thread again I see you coming off as a bit of a fanatic. Your last statement was indeed very insulting. You are guilty of exactly what you accuse other men of doing.

"This silly claim that it's a problem everybody has is just one of the strategies by which men try to make women's discussions of reality go away."

And you are using a similar strategy to make men's discussions of reality go away by saying it's silly. Whenever ANYONE is abused it's a horrible thing, it's not silly for men or women.

And another thing, Martial Artist made a mistake and he apologised for his typo. Your response to him was that his apology was no good and that the rest of his post makes it clear that his apology is no good. The rest of his post did no such thing! Like I said, you need to chill out.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Technopunk

And as far as my Quote "Because Chicks Dig Assassins" it was a Trivia Catagory on "WIN BEN STIEN'S MONEY" making fun of John Hinkley for thinking That shooting Regan would make Jodie Foster love him. I laugh every time I think of how STUPID that is. Im laughing NOW.


:rofl: Me too. :rofl:

[TKDman]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death

To suggest to a smaller person or female that they are powerless to physicaly aid an attacker on his way to self negation is, frankly, ignorant and irresponsible. However if you believe you can kick your way through the eight considerations of combat (kenpo term) I can see how you could come to that conclusion. Have a nice day Mr. TKD guy:) :soapbox:

Ouch son, "Ignorant" and "irresponsible" are big and often mis-used words! Are you sure you used them correctly?

Read into the topic more before you start flinging mud big guy. Maybe you should reflect upon your black belt!

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by TKDman
Well I just got done watching Enough, and I thought it was a unrealistic joke of a movie. Not to be sexist or anything, but I truly do not think that a smaller person could take down a larger attacker whether they be male or female. In extreme cases a small man may be able to defeat a larger attacker, but most of the time the bigger person wins. I know what your saying, "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog".

This movie was about a battered woman that took up some training and killed her husband in hand to hand combat. (About as funny as J.I. Jane) Sadly many women believe this could happen so they take up martial arts and believe they can become Super Women. I believe this is a waste of time for the woman, she needs counsiling and a handgun, not some MA training no matter what type it is. I agree with the man on 24fightingchickens.com:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/06_defense.html

What do you think about this situation?
Sorry if I come across as rude. You have got to be kidding me! now in extreme cases I agree. A little kid won't beat a grown man. But just because one is small does not mean they can't beat a bigger person. As a bigger person (6'3" 225) It doesn't mean I can automatically take smaller people. For crying out loud there is much more in a fight than someone's size.

[soccer50]

This post is reply to the first one. No matter whether your small or big, it DOESNT matter. Ive seen it, trust me...The biggest difference Ive seen is 9" and 60lbs, where the small guy messed up the big guy really bad. As for women, ever fought a woman? The scratching and kicking and punching. Women dont crack like potato chips, if they keep going at you, you'll be crying.

[rmcrobertson]

On the whole, abuse by women against men simply isn't the problem. You can look it up, but whatever seems best.

As for chilling out...odd how that never gets asked of the guys--and it is guys, ya know--who seem to need to start in on the topic of how women shouldn't train, can't defend themselves, etc...

One of my suppositions is that the way we talk reveals as much as what we think we are saying. Another is that these days, there's a general fascination with attacking other people's emotions, their supposed neuroses, rather than dealing with the issues at hand.

For example, I might write that men who constantly need to question the value of women martial artists seem insecure in their masculinity.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
Sorry TKDMan, but I know some Kenpobabes that would knock the stuffin out of your egg mcmuffin, if you know what I mean. I am not saying that women are physically stronger than men, in general, but well trained are just as deadly. Isn't that what separates regular people from martial arts people, the knowledge of the fighting arts??? Skill given to anyone, man or woman can be very dangerous. Just because a guy may be stronger that does not guarentee his victory over a woman. In Kenpo we have the Dragon over the Tiger, it represents knowledge over power...you get me??? That is why we Kenpoists teach vital strikes, because EVERYONE is vulnerable in certain areas, i.e eyes, throat, nose, hinge of the jaw, groin, etc.etc. Oh yeah by the way most girls are generally faster than guys because they weigh less than most guys. Note I said most not all. This is very important when talking about "men" or "woman" , you can't generalize your statements by saying all, have you met all the women in the world...I doubt it. Look at female body builders, I bet a lot of them can lift more than a lot of guys out there. Just goes to show you that you can't say ALL guys are stronger than ALL women, it just doesn't really apply. Don't let your machismo go to your head, some girl might come over and knock it out of you.

:asian:

KenpoDragon
Bodybuilders are nowhere near as strong as powerlifters. But yeah, women powerlifters can lift more than most of us. That's not the point really.

Point is with women is ego, and it just doesn't apply to females, but everyone. Just that women tend to get a bit more touchy on the subject because society usually portrays them as the victim. If I was a woman, I would probably be fed up too.

But again, women are built differently from men. A lot of men's hips don't allow some men to be able to do the splits. A typical man's excuse? It hurts my testicles.

[MartialArtist]

Size DOES matter in the martial arts!!!

How? It can many times determine the way you move, your advantages and disadvantages. Sorry, in terms of physics and biomechanics, a tall, lanky guy won't be as agile as a 5' guy considering they had the same training, skills, body development and composition, etc. A tall, lanky guy like someone who's 6'8", 160 pounds wouldn't usually choose freestyle wrestling.

Size or lacking size (excluding extreme cases) does not make you a better or worse fighter. It just means that it can determine the way you fight. Overpowering the opponent aggressively with just sheer force wouldn't be the greatest idea for a woman or anyone going against a 300 pound man, but rather the use of speed, skills, technique, and awareness.

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Size DOES matter in the martial arts!!!

How? It can many times determine the way you move, your advantages and disadvantages. Sorry, in terms of physics and biomechanics, a tall, lanky guy won't be as agile as a 5' guy considering they had the same training, skills, body development and composition, etc. A tall, lanky guy like someone who's 6'8", 160 pounds wouldn't usually choose freestyle wrestling.

Size or lacking size (excluding extreme cases) does not make you a better or worse fighter. It just means that it can determine the way you fight. Overpowering the opponent aggressively with just sheer force wouldn't be the greatest idea for a woman or anyone going against a 300 pound man, but rather the use of speed, skills, technique, and awareness.

Yes I agree, my point was that just beccause you are bigger does not mean you will win the fight.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
Yes I agree, my point was that just beccause you are bigger does not mean you will win the fight.
I agree with you.

Size mainly means it might determine the way you fight.

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
I agree with you.

Size mainly means it might determine the way you fight.
Well said

[KennethKu]

What battered women need is a comprehensive program to rebuild their lives. Martial art is just one component of the program. Most women in such situation should not be focusing on going head to head with their abussers. There are organizations, both public and private, in every city, that dedicate to help these women. The last thing they need is to think about fighting with the abusser. These organizations are well equipped to get these women AWAY from their abussive partners and relocate to safer place. They need the distance, time, safety to regain themselves. Martial art is definitely a positive contributor, but not the first thing they should be focusing on. They need professional assistance.

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
On the whole, abuse by women against men simply isn't the problem.



Back the Truck up a second:

ABUSE IS A PROBLEM...

Abuse by men against women... IS A PROBLEM
Abuse by women against men... IS A PROBLEM
Abuse by Men against Men... IS A PROBLEM
Abuse by parents against Children... IS A PROBLEM
Abuse against Animals... IS A PROBLEM

Don't dismiss ANY type of abuse becuase the statistics are lower...

AND... If you read my posts, NONE of them said anything about women being inferior, or that they shouldn't train... etc... I stated that making a blanket statement that women dont have the ability to beat up men was wrong because every person in every situation is different.

I simply pointed out that Men are often victims as well...


Originally posted by rmcrobertson
You can look it up, but whatever seems best.


Ok, I did.

THE DOJ REPORTS:

"Every year, 1,510,455 women and 834,732 men are victims of physical violence by an intimate"

Are the Numbers higher for women? YES. BUT 834,732 men is a pretty signifigant statistical number, especialy if you condiser that men are LESS likely to report the violence than women.

Source: National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey Exhibits 7,8, p. 7
(Tjaden, P. G., & Thoennes, N. )U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Research in Brief series, November, 1998. NCJ 172837

http://www.batteredmen.com/

Enjoy some light reading about this non-existant problem.

[sweeper]

no but it gives you an advantage.. If you have equal skill to a 5'11'' 170 pound guy like me than you are probably going to win in a fight.

[rmcrobertson]

The posts, I think, pretty clearly showed what people thought.

Clearly, too, violence against anyone "is a problem." However, truisms do not change the basic facts: the overwhelming number of assaults are by men, against women. The way men in the martial arts think, and act, very often makes training harder for women and girls.

Statistics are funny things. Since there's no breakdown here, it's hard to tell--but it looks like this is reported domestic assaults only...no consideration, for example, of the rape statistics.

In the context of the last few years' attacks on women's rights( AKA the, "post-feminist period"), it's not surprising to find a problem with men's fascination with solving their problems through violence de-gendered, and translated into a "human," problem instead.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by sweeper
no but it gives you an advantage.. If you have equal skill to a 5'11'' 170 pound guy like me than you are probably going to win in a fight.
There is no such thing as equal skill. There's comparable skill, but never equal skill.

Then there are the other attributes that you have to worry about. Speed, agility, power, flexibility, strength. Too many factors, none will be equal.

Hypothetically, and I do mean hypotheticall if all the physical AND mental attributes were the same, then the bigger person will win because they can exert as much force with less effort, while the other person has to exert more force.

[Zepp]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Hypothetically, and I do mean hypotheticall if all the physical AND mental attributes were the same, then the bigger person will win because they can exert as much force with less effort, while the other person has to exert more force.

True, if you eliminate random chance as well.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zepp
True, if you eliminate random chance as well.
which in a street fight, can determine who gets to walk home

[moromoro]

This movie was about a battered woman that took up some training and killed her husband in hand to hand combat. (About as funny as J.I. Jane) Sadly many women believe this could happen so they take up martial arts and believe they can become Super Women. I believe this is a waste of time for the woman, she needs counsiling and a handgun, not some MA training no matter what type it is.

handgun is the best weapon for women. they do not stand a chance against a well trained male fighter.

a knife is good to carry as well,

empty handed a woman will always be at a disadvantage over a male it is sad when you have SOB taking advantage of this and when they start hitting abusing their wives, this is where it becomes a police matter.

i believe more power to women but that lies in a gun or a knife or some kind of weapon, they will always be at a disadvantage against a male.


terry

[SRyuFighter]

After some thought on this subject I think that Battered women should first get away from their abuser. In my book that has to take first priority. Secondly if they want to learn a martial art to try to defend themselves so that he does not kill her. Then I say More power to ya! The movie Enough just makes it seem like if your getting beat by your husband then all you have to do is take kickboxing for a few weeks and you'll kick his ass. It's simply not the case. We all know that it takes a long time to be good in a Martial Art. Another thing (having just gotten done with domestic violence in my Psychology class) is that these women actually love htese men and are afraid of them. Their first thought is not to kill them. They blame themselves, that is why these relationships last so long in the first place.
Thanks for listening.

[rmcrobertson]

"empty handed a woman will always be at a disadvantage over a male it is sad when you have SOB taking advantage of this"

Sigh. Same old same old.