FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com

Dan Anderson

05-20-2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
1) Now i have seen it all, in karate sometimes many western students come up with there own names for their styles, and they do this at an early rank and then get there students to grade them!!!!!!

2) well this is happening in the U.S in some FMA,

3) an example of this may include a 6th grade teacher who began his own board the students on that board ( all junior in rank to him) have decided they should grade him 7th grade.....................................

hmmmmmm

how would you feel to get graded by your students....this is a downright joke and it makes me sick, but i cant help laughfing....
but my question is if the students grade him can he grade the students,

4) what about if his students include a 5th degree a 4th degree 3 second degrees and a first degree,

wow all of the students add up to a 16th degree a super GM......

5) what is your views on people getting graded by their juniors or by their students.....

thanks
terry

Terry,
I added numbers to your comments above so that I can address them individually.

1) I formed my own karate style back in the middle 1970's and called it American Freestyle Karate, wrote a best selling book on the subject and was a national fighting champion for many years to boot. It was done not so that my students could then promote me. Do your research history and you'll find that I was a respected champion and nobody who gave me any crap about it .

2) I did the same by announcing my own style of my instructor's art, Modern Arnis 80. I got permission from him in 1998. I was already a senior player in his art and not some nobody who is in search of extra paper. In fact, I am probably the most senior active American student of Remy Presas in the US.

3) Grow some balls, man, and name the person. That's Tim Hartman you're referring to and if you are going to say it, say it fully. Also, before you blow steam in his direction, do your research and find the facts. To my knowledge, the advisory board made the announcement but two Grand Masters in FMA made the call. Tim will post the particulars when he feels like it.

4) You're getting ridiculous.

5) Finally, a serious question. My personal opinion is that juniors don't promote someone to a senior rank, period. If you have no seniors in your specific art, you go to an organization which has seniors of like kind or outside an organization to a senior of like kind and get the promotion that way.

Actually, I like what Choki Motobu did according to Peter Urban's book, "The Karate Dojo." Before he died he went insane, declared himself 11th dan and the greatest warrior on the planet.
(N.B. That's what the book says - I don't know if it's true or not.)

From a different thread, why were you suspended? It's obvious. You don't state with either logic or passion. You state with either hatred or arrogance and you're dripping with disdain. Unless someone calls you on something you come on like everyone in the US know nothing or are phony. Only when someone goes nose to nose with you do you ever write with anything less than that attitude. That you are sincere about your art and training is evident. Your manners, however, leave much to be desired.

Perhaps it is the fact that on the internet you don't have to watch what you say because you might have to back it up physically. Maybe because of the internet we can't see that you are having fun and mean no insult by what you write. Don't know, can't say. I'm not there when you write your message. If you come to America, however, and want to do seminars as you stated in a past thread, look forward to empty halls unless your public attitude changes. Trust me on this one. I learned that lesson the hard way.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan Anderson

05-20-2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Tapps
I believe there have been 3 such promotions in recent months in Modern Arnis. All senior students with respectable credentials.

Yo! Tapps,

There's Tim in the US and Dieter in Germany. Who is the third?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Cruentus

05-20-2003, 10:01 PM

There was that spanking I was looking for.....:eek: !

Amen Dan A.

Matt Stone

05-20-2003, 10:11 PM

In response to the implication that McDojos don't exist in the PI...

For what it's worth, I remember reading one of Mark Wiley's books about his research in the Phillipines, and a comment was made at one point that an instructor was asked to teach a particular art to someone. That instructor replied something to the effect of "I don't know what that is, but if you have the money, I'll be happy to teach it to you!"

It happens everywhere. Congrats to the WMAA folks for trying to remain true to their inheritance as well as remain progressive and continue advancing into the future without falling victim to the lack of ethics that other folks have. By having a council make the decision, rather than allowing Mr. Hartman to emulate Patton and promote himself, lends legitimacy to the organization's actions.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Cruentus

05-20-2003, 10:15 PM

You are often the voice of reason when the threads get hot. As a WMAA board member and supporter, I would like to say thanks!:D

Matt Stone

05-20-2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
You are often the voice of reason when the threads get hot. As a WMAA board member and supporter, I would like to say thanks!:D

No worries, brah!

I don't know Mr. Hartman. Gotta say that the first time I saw him on video, I really didn't think that his voice went with his face...

I do know one of his students (who taught me Modern Arnis in Japan) pretty well and consider him one of my best and dearest friends. If he thinks Mr. Hartman is legit, so do I.

While I have trouble with both juniors promoting seniors, and persons outside an art promoting someone in an art that they themselves do not study, this is one rare and exceptional case where it can be seen to be the only possible choice...

Congratulations, Mr. Hartman. Well done.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

moromoro

05-21-2003, 10:03 AM

the truth hurts as i can see.....

a lot of good points but people took this the wrong way just read my post and i did ask legitimate questions, now people are on the defensive, because i sparked up a issue which people wanted to keep under a rug.........

Look
That you are sincere about your art and training is evident. Your manners, however, leave much to be desired.

i speak how i see it... but i have a pure heart...

Perhaps it is the fact that on the internet you don't have to watch what you say because you might have to back it up physically. Maybe because of the internet we can't see that you are having fun and mean no insult by what you write.

dan like i have stated i have an open door policy on challenges, in cebu and in OZ.....Navarro system...... just bring a certificate and some cash i got the video camera.......

also the doesnt have to be names,

as this was just a question

if something like this happend to tim i would love to hear his views about it,
why did he accept the promotion???
when he was promoted by his juniors and or by other people outside the art???
is promotion so important to him????
was beign a 6th degree for the rest of his life to bad for him to cope with????

its all nice and good sopporting people but again when someone has done wrong/different we want answers................

thanks

terry

Bob Hubbard

05-21-2003, 11:54 AM

Terry,
based on your questions on Budoseek, I'd say you have a fixation on Tim. I don't know why......

This question on the surface is innocent, but given certain things, is quite loaded as a nasty shot at a few individuals, and I have to believe its Tim. Why? Because you've never seemed to want to take a shot at Deiter, and the whole 'Jeff Delany self promoted from 5th to GM' things been beaten into the ground along time past.

Why did Tim do what he did? Ask him.

As to the "wrongness"....
Since the death of GM Parker, the Kenpoists have been promoting similarly. Other arts have done it as well.
This wasn't a 'student' promotion, but a peer promotion, aproved of by several established and respected Grandmasters of their own systems, who were also very familiar with GM Presas. Both the man, and his art.

Who do you goto for a promotion so you can continue to grow the art, when there is no one of a higher rank qualified to promote you?

As to you, don't insult our inteligence by playing dumb.

Heres your post on Budoseek: :)

Master of Blades

05-21-2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
the truth hurts as i can see.....

a lot of good points but people took this the wrong way just read my post and i did ask legitimate questions, now people are on the defensive, because i sparked up a issue which people wanted to keep under a rug.........

Look

i speak how i see it... but i have a pure heart...

dan like i have stated i have an open door policy on challenges, in cebu and in OZ.....Navarro system...... just bring a certificate and some cash i got the video camera.......

also the doesnt have to be names,

as this was just a question

if something like this happend to tim i would love to hear his views about it,
why did he accept the promotion???
when he was promoted by his juniors and or by other people outside the art???
is promotion so important to him????
was beign a 6th degree for the rest of his life to bad for him to cope with????

its all nice and good sopporting people but again when someone has done wrong/different we want answers................

thanks

terry

Terry,

Heck maybe Im wrong by getting into this argument and being serious but I really think you are missing the point. Its not whether you asked Legit Questions or not.....its the way you say it. Now, I aint gonna lie to you, you have a very in your face way of saying things.....If you think it aint worth **** then you will say it aint worth ****. And plus no one here is complaining about your questions.....its more your accusations and tone that there whining about! Now the problem with saying you have Open Door policys to Dan like that (Who apparently from what I have heard is V. Good) when YOUR in Australia and hes in the U.S.A is that its pretty hard to prove....heck whos to say that you dont run a Mcdojo yourself and that the West is running it the proper way? And about Tim.......Why wouldnt he accept the Promotion? To be honest I think to a point Promotion is important to everyone.....and heck I would settle being a First Degree for the rest of my life....But if he got offered it I still cant see a point in saying no. I still also have yet to see what has been done wrong and WE dont want answers......You do.

Btw.....The truth hurts? When you start speaking it I'll tell you
:rolleyes:

Cruentus

05-21-2003, 02:18 PM

You see....this is what I was talking about it the "questions" thread regarding you and the manner in which you post. You say that you are just asking legitemate questions, and that your intentions are "pure." Reread what you wrote originally. Here, I'll break it down for you...

"FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all"

You have already started with an insult before you even asked your "innocent questions".

"Now i have seen it all, in karate sometimes many western students come up with there own names for their styles, and they do this at an early rank and then get there students to grade them!!!!!!

well this is happening in the U.S in some FMA,

an example of this may include a 6th grade teacher who began his own board the students on that board ( all junior in rank to him) have decided they should grade him 7th grade....................................."

So far, moromoro, these aren't questions. You have thusfar made hasty generalizations, and you don't even know what your talking about. So far, this first post doesn't sound like your innocently asking anyone anything.

"hmmmmmm

how would you feel to get graded by your students....this is a downright joke and it makes me sick, but i cant help laughfing....
but my question is if the students grade him can he grade the students,"

There...finally a question. You've asked 1 question so far, and only after you've completely loaded it, then followed up with your own biased opinions which are based off of limited knowledge of the situation.

"what about if his students include a 5th degree a 4th degree 3 second degrees and a first degree,

wow all of the students add up to a 16th degree a super GM......"

Now, as Dan said, your just being ridicules. This doesn't even pertain to the situation.

"what is your views on people getting graded by their juniors or by their students.....

thanks
terry"

O.K....you asked one question that COULD have been valid there at the end, except you clouded it with all your other crap. And whether this was intention or not, Kaith now just exposed that you truly are a coward. You are trying to pretend like you have no specific intentions here, you don't name specific names, but the proof is there that you have been milling around the net trying to get information off of Tim Hartman so you could start S**t. That's cowardly. Get a life.

Now in terms of clarification on the issue, this is true; the public has the right to know. This issue has been clarified in previous Threads already in the Modern Arnis Forum and elseware already. If you or anyone else would like a further explaination, then ask the question LIKE A GENTLEMAN, and with an open mind. I'm sure when Tim returns he'll have an answer, if the question is asked appropriatly. Perhaps other WMAA members would be willing to express their side as well. You aren't going to get a decent conversation out of anyone, however, if you don't change your tactics.

Shape up, moromoro, or ship out.

Paul:mad:

Master of Blades

05-21-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by PAUL

Shape up, moromoro, or ship out.

Paul:mad:

And hes putting it nicely......:shrug:

Dan Anderson

05-21-2003, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
1) the truth hurts as i can see.....

2) a lot of good points but people took this the wrong way just read my post and i did ask legitimate questions, now people are on the defensive, because i sparked up a issue which people wanted to keep under a rug.........

3) Look
i speak how i see it... but i have a pure heart...

4) dan like i have stated i have an open door policy on challenges, in cebu and in OZ.....Navarro system...... just bring a certificate and some cash i got the video camera.......

also the doesnt have to be names,

5) as this was just a question

if something like this happend to tim i would love to hear his views about it,
why did he accept the promotion???
when he was promoted by his juniors and or by other people outside the art???
is promotion so important to him????
was beign a 6th degree for the rest of his life to bad for him to cope with????

6) its all nice and good sopporting people but again when someone has done wrong/different we want answers................

thanks

terry

Terry,
As usual, you have demonstrated a talent for completely missing the point.

1. What truth? I see only opinion and bombastic statements.

2. Nobody is getting defensive but rather counter-offensive. There is nothing anyone has attempted to sweep under any rug.

3. If you had a pure heart, you wouldnt be so much on the attack.

4. You think I'm going to go all the way to Australia just to meet you and bring cash and a certificate just to meet you, let alone challenge you? You're living in a dream world, pal. Now you're getting defensive.

5. When you finally asked a question, sure, no problem. Ask Tim for the answers to your questions. None of us can answer for him.

6. Has something been done wrong or have you jumped to conclusions before getting all the facts?

Look at your original post. Attack, ridicule, challenge and then finally questions. The manner in which you communicate pisses people off. Plain bad manners. If you skip all the other crap and ask questions, they deserve to be answered and minus all the horse$h!t you included in this thread, you posted a very good question.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Brian Johns

05-21-2003, 06:45 PM

Wow, this Moromoro dude has a lot of guts, eh ? I cannot believe the way he shot off his mouth about the promotion and without doing any research in the first place. But what gets me is the incredible number of posts (740 some odd posts) in two months.

Looks to me that he is spending far more time on the computer than he is training. As a matter of fact, I wonder if he has any time to train at all !!

Dan Anderson

05-21-2003, 07:33 PM

Whoop,

My hat's off to you (revealing a rapidly balding skull) for recognizing something the rest of has missed. :rofl:

Yours,
Dan

dearnis.com

05-21-2003, 10:36 PM

Wow...things get excitig when you go off to drink beer and catch fish for a week.
In the case of Tim's promotion the board (of which I am a member) made a recomendation that the WMAA promote based on input (and endorsement) from Dr. Gyi, Datu Jornales, as well as input from other advisors.
And yes, juniors DO promote their seniors. Look at the history of Isshinryu karate among others.
For the record, since it apparently is an issue to some, my vote to recommend the promotion was based on two things. The first is Tim's ongoing effort to develop, lead, and promote a first-class, non-political Modern Arnis organization. I feel he is doing a better job at this than anyone (no slight intended to anyone else, just that I feel Tim is doing the best job.) Second, I see Tim personally striving to improve his own knowledge of the art by researching its origin, and applying that research in his teaching.
I have known and trained with Tim since around 1995; that is enough time to be able to evaluate his growth. (And Tim became my teacher of record only in the last year before anyone starts on that.)

Lastly, is the issue Tim's being promoted, or a personality conflict??

moromoro

05-22-2003, 07:12 AM

Actually i have no problem with tim.... he may be a great guy (i dont know)
he makes his living from the FMA (good on him)

He use to train with the Prof (RIP) 5-6 times a year (great).......

I just want answers, firstly he was graded to 6th degree by the Prof (RIP) right?? why wasnt this good enough???????

iam sure 1 degree by the Prof is worth more than 100 degrees by the WMAA board........

WHy not do what others have done and get graded by your seniors in the same art........or stay the same rank...... is rank so important that you need a board of juniors to rank you?????

please answer tim

thanks

terry

Dan
also as far as challenging goes every eskrima school should be open for all challenges what are you going to do turn it down??????
Thanks Dan
terry

If people are looking for good sparring/ challenging????
Why dont you go to the dog brothers met from what i have seen on the net there the closest thing to real eskrimadors in the U.S....

also i can tell from how people have been responding to my post that most of you are not fighters, just cry baby's

also MT is larger than the FMA section most of my post have been ansewred by
:D ................... probably over 500 hundred of them have been smilies in the locker room

moromoro

05-22-2003, 07:15 AM

hi kaith can you post your reply on budoseek about the rank of the members of the board here for everyone to see.....

John J

05-22-2003, 07:41 AM

[QUOTE]In the case of Tim's promotion the board (of which I am a member) made a recomendation that the WMAA promote based on input (and endorsement) from Dr. Gyi, Datu Jornales, as well as input from other advisors. And yes, juniors DO promote their seniors. Look at the history of Isshinryu karate among others. QUOTE]

My comments are based purely from this thread.

I met Tim many years ago and I can attest for his passion of the Filipino Martial Arts. However, what does Dr. Gyi's endorsement have to do with ranking in the FMA? Regarding juniors promoting, I beg to differ. It is not common practice in the Philippines or FMA in general. The board should consist of his peers and seniors. They are the ONLY qualified individuals to make such assessment. I realize that all are not members of the WMAA. So, will such a rank be recognized by his other peers, seniors and representatives in the Philippines???

thekuntawman

05-22-2003, 08:51 AM

i do not think that the multi levels of ranking like karate ranks, with up to 10 degrees of black belt, is good for the philippine martial arts. especially in a martial arts community where the measuring tool for skill is everything except fighting.

what i see now, is that, in a short amount of time, you can get very high degrees in the philippine martial arts, and this is a bad thing. look into tae kwon do, where every school owner is a 6th degree or more. in arnis and eskrima, nobody is satisfied with 1st or 2nd degree, unless he has 4 or more black belts. people are more interested in gaining more rank, than in developing better skill. when was the last time you saw a 2nd or 3rd degree black belter in the FMA who owns a school? now, you have people with less experience than you do, who are giving you MORE rank?/?? no wonder people laugh at the FMA today. and people are so busy talking tough in there own little circles, they dont even notice.

if rank is not the priority, then there would not be so many organizations giving out more and more rank everytime you turn around. we are becoming like tae kwon do, and that stinks.

what happend to just having experts and teachers? why does everybody have to be lakan ____ whatever? what masters do you see putting that out? there is a saying that fits this, that titles are for men whos ability does not speak for them.

Rich Parsons

05-22-2003, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by moromoro
Actually i have no problem with tim.... he may be a great guy (i dont know)
he makes his living from the FMA (good on him)

He use to train with the Prof (RIP) 5-6 times a year (great).......

. . .

Terry, Where do you get your attitude towards Tim? You asked me about mine towards you? I ask in return. You say you do not know him. I say I do not know you, only from the others posts and information about others. I agree with you and the Kuntawman on this, training in person is the best. One on One is where the msot can be learned.

Originally posted by moromoro
WHy not do what others have done and get graded by your seniors in the same art........or stay the same rank...... is rank so important that you need a board of juniors to rank you?????

. . .

thanks

terry

Hmmm, Seniors, the only ones that could be found would be the those in PI that GM RP promoted. Yet they are only 8th degree. So tehy can only promote to 7th degree. And then the next generation could only promote to 6th degree, and the the next generation would only be allowed 5th degree.

Let me ask you a question, who promoted all the old GM's in the PI? Was it recognition from their students? Was it recognition from their peers, from a different style?

I am very curious, to hear who promoted them? OR did they just claim the title and then from their either defended it or just lived with the it?

Originally posted by moromoro

If people are looking for good sparring/ challenging????
Why dont you go to the dog brothers met from what i have seen on the net there the closest thing to real eskrimadors in the U.S....

Dog Brothers are a good. I cannot get out to the West Coast at that time(s) of the year. It is one of the things I want to do. Yet, for it to really make positive contributions I should go mulitple times. Just not in the cards.

Originally posted by moromoro

also i can tell from how people have been responding to my post that most of you are not fighters, just cry baby's

Your opinion of those you talk about is clear. Yet, you seem to not take any criticism back? It could be perceived to others that you might also be a non-fighter just be yelling on the internet only. We have no proof of your other exploits. They might be true and even understated, yet how are we to know ?

Note: It goes both way, and if you enter into a discussion with no respect for others, then do not expect to receive any in return.

Originally posted by moromoro

also MT is larger than the FMA section most of my post have been ansewred by
:D ................... probably over 500 hundred of them have been smilies in the locker room

over 500 Smileys?

This would be considered Fluff. So you support Fluff to obtain your rank here on Martial Talk? What a person does in place of their life do they not apply the same values to other places in tehri life? This also points to a person who requires their ego to be recognized. If this is not the issue, you could ask for the posts to be trimmed and you could also disable your rank in your profile.

Terry, enjoy our training. Enjoy posting here as long you stay with in the rules, (* Like I will *) and please try to understand, I am not trying to change you into my image of what you should be. I am only trying to give feedback, so you can still improve and understand that people look at things differently from you. Not saying either sde is right or wrong only that are more than two ways of looking at something.

Have a Nice Day :)

thekuntawman

05-22-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Hmmm, Seniors, the only ones that could be found would be the those in PI that GM RP promoted. Yet they are only 8th degree. So tehy can only promote to 7th degree. And then the next generation could only promote to 6th degree, and the the next generation would only be allowed 5th degree.

Let me ask you a question, who promoted all the old GM's in the PI? Was it recognition from their students? Was it recognition from their peers, from a different style?

I am very curious, to hear who promoted them? OR did they just claim the title and then from their either defended it or just lived with the it?

Have a Nice Day :)

i dont think its necessary to have so many degrees in the philippine martial arts. like i said, most philippine martial arts have only fighting techniques and strategy to learn, and less than what is in most foreign styles. for the ranking of older filipinos, they do not have these kinds of rankings. as a matter of fact i the only ones i know who use those dan rankings are the presas brothers and carlito lanada, but they have japanese martial art influences. most other fma "masters" are called master and recognized to be a master by his community. i believe that only the fighter can give himself a title like that, and its up to the community around him to use the title. as long as that master can back it up, or have students that can back it up.

in the case that only your peers in the philippines can promote somebody, if they are the only ones with higher rankings, then, yes, you will have to go there. or bring them here. but see the arrogance, many people dont want to do that, because they think it would make them less than the filipino, and the only one they want to respect is remy himself. you know you cant be a leader if you are not willing to follow. but i say again, who cares about those higher ranking, especially if you didnt take more classes to get them?

now lets say remy dies when there is only 3rd and 4th degree black belters around. is there really a need to get a 5th degree? so what? do you know that, carlito lanada, the founder of kuntaw ng pilipinas, his own daughter alice is a 4th degree? she had this degree in the 1980s and ten years later she still is. why is this, because she knows her dads art, and she does care to get a higher rank, even though her skill was better and 31 than it was when she was 21. if your teacher died when you are only a third degree and you "made it through the ranks" to a 7th degree, is it really the same? does it change your fighting art? how about how much respect your students will have for yourself? only in the FMA, will you find a 5th degree black belter with less than 10 years of arnis experience.

any way to answer your questions, rank is not something given out in the philippines by most teachers. only in the well establish schools do you find it. mostly your going to see people who learned from different masters, and some will have "permission" to teach his style, but most do not, and he is recognized as a teacher or master, simply because he introduce himself that way, and when the people see him move, they agree. certificates and titles and rankings, they are business practices. i do it in my school, but i didnt get certificates. i didnt even get one from ernesto presas and i am a second degree. i did get one from boggs lao and carlito lanada, because i saw one and i wanted one. it didnt cost me any money. when i was given a third degree black belt, he just said, your a third degree now.

the only real important thing is the martial arts is skill and ability. all that rankings stuff is show. if you take a good brown belter, and black belters of different degrees and take off there belts, i would bet you cant guess who has what, so what does that tell you.

Bob Hubbard

05-22-2003, 12:27 PM

ok Terry...lets play...

Here is the original announcement from the WMAA:

Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.
On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.

This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.

The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.

/s/
Jeffery J. Leader, PhD

for the WMAA Advisory Board:

Charles E. Dulin
Paul Janulis
Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
Ingmar Johansson
Sal Todaro

Here is the info on the board members listed:

Jeffery J. Leader, PhD
3rd degree WMAA Modern Arnis
(from a profile on martialtalk.com)
He has studied several Okinawan karate systems and a number of Japanese martial arts and presently studies JKD and BJJ, but his black belt is in Modern Arnis.

Charles E. Dulin
5th Degree Black Belt in Ryukyu Kempo (DKI)
2nd Degree Black Belt in Modern Arnis (WMAA)
2nd Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do
Apprentice Instructor in Sayoc Kali.

Paul Janulis
2nd degree WMAA Modern Arnis

Ingmar Johansson
Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate 4: th degree black belt
other arts listed : Mano y daga

Sal Todaro
1st degree WMAA Modern Arnis
3rd Kyu - Ryu Te
additional art info : Balintawak - Sayoc Kali

Note - that is the info -I- was able to locate. That is not complete. I did not have at that time, nor do I now the full info on the others involved in the promotion.

In the case of 'leadership'. While others sit on their asses and 'maintain' things, Tim is traveling the world, both spreading the art, and researching its roots.

What I find interesting here is that a 23-24 yr old is so bent outta shape. Hell son, I'm your senior here. Don't they have that "respect for your elders" thing where you come from? Guess not. Looks like you have little respect for anything or anyone other than yourself, and whoever can kick you ass.

thekuntawman had a good point here:

the only real important thing is the martial arts is skill and ability. all that rankings stuff is show. if you take a good brown belter, and black belters of different degrees and take off there belts, i would bet you cant guess who has what, so what does that tell you.

Ed Parker used to say he could tell a persons level by how they moved. I'm getting to the point where I can tell the seniors from the students. Flow, control, grace even is present in the more expreinced and skilled, where the newbie seems to just flail away. I tend to agree, there are too many belts, and too often they are just decoration. But, they serve a few purposes. Some financial (test fees, etc), some just to help an instructor in a busy school remember which students are working on what part of the curiculum. After a certain point, it seems to be more for 'time in', and 'job well done', than an expression of actual martial skill.

Personally.... I favor a simplified system. White for student, brown for instructor, black for head instrutor. No stripes, no slashes, nothing fancy. But then again....I don't teach and I dont run a school.

:asian:

Cruentus

05-22-2003, 01:53 PM

I don't put much stock in Belts myself. I am not a rank collector. I am only a 2nd degree in Modern Arnis, and a 0 degree in Balintawak, and a 0 degree in Bando. I have a black belt in Tai Kwon Do hiding in my room somewhere, as well as an Aikido designation, championship trophies from tournament fighting, as well as other obscure cerificates from other systems.

What do these designations mean in regards to fighting? They really don't mean squat. I could fight everyone on this Forum, and miraculesly kick everyones butt who has a higher rank then me. Then, on my way to my car after kicking everyones butt, I get robbed, stabbed, and killed by an untrained, disgruntled midget.

I am being a bit flamboyant here, but I think you understand the point. Belts and trophies don't win fights.

On the other hand, when you have a leader of an organization who is well recognized by the FMA community, and by his own students, there is nothing wrong with his students and peers elevating him to a higher rank, title, or designation. Not only is there nothing wrong with it, but when someone accomplishes a lot regarding their art, they SHOULD get a higher rank or designation to show the world what that person has accomplished. Now unfortunatily, many rank moves, titles, and designations are done for marketing and political reasons. Tim Hartmans promotion, however, was not done for marketing or political reasons at all. It was done because Tim has accomplished a high level of skill, and accomplishement within the Modern Arnis and FMA communities worldwide, and we felt that he needed to be recognized for it. The fact was, there were people who had been trying to promote Tim to a higher designation immediatly following professors passing. There are also people who til this day would like to see Tim given a title such as grand master, or a rank such as 10th degree. The reasons for this are due to Tims high level of skill, and not for superficial reasons. Tim has humbly turned these promotions down, however, for he felt that after his teachers death it would have been too soon for any kind promotion, and that GM or 10th degree designation would also be a bit premature. We all forced him to accept his 7th degree designation, however, so he had to take that one!

So, in regards to Tim Hartman, he has more then earned his promotion; in fact by only accepting a 7th degree, he IS really being humble. And there is nothing wrong with that.

:asian:
PAUL

Dan Anderson

05-22-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by moromoro

Dan
also as far as challenging goes every eskrima school should be open for all challenges what are you going to do turn it down??????
Thanks Dan
terry

Terry,
I have no clue as to what you are asking. What are you asking?

Yours,
Dan

Dan Anderson

05-22-2003, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
1) i do not think that the multi levels of ranking like karate ranks, with up to 10 degrees of black belt, is good for the philippine martial arts, especially in a martial arts community where the measuring tool for skill is everything except fighting.

if rank is not the priority, then there would not be so many organizations giving out more and more rank everytime you turn around. we are becoming like tae kwon do, and that stinks.

what happend to just having experts and teachers? why does everybody have to be lakan ____ whatever? what masters do you see putting that out? there is a saying that fits this, that titles are for men whos ability does not speak for them.

i dont think its necessary to have so many degrees in the philippine martial arts. like i said, most philippine martial arts have only fighting techniques and strategy to learn, and less than what is in most foreign styles. for the ranking of older filipinos, they do not have these kinds of rankings.

2) as a matter of fact i the only ones i know who use those dan rankings are the presas brothers and carlito lanada, but they have japanese martial art influences.

3) now lets say remy dies when there is only 3rd and 4th degree black belters around. is there really a need to get a 5th degree? so what?

4) any way to answer your questions, rank is not something given out in the philippines by most teachers. only in the well establish schools do you find it.

5) A. the only real important thing is the martial arts is skill and ability. all that rankings stuff is show. B. if you take a good brown belter, and black belters of different degrees and take off there belts, i would bet you cant guess who has what, so what does that tell you.

Kuntawman,
Many excellent points.

1. A very short answer to this is this is what our teacher left us, belt ranks much like the Karate dan rankings so that is what we deal with.

2. Absolutely and point taken.

3. My own personal belief is that if Remy could do it, so can I (I'm talking skill wise). If I don't think I can then I have no aspirations. Whether I actually become as skilled as he was is another matter entirely and only time will tell. So what? Ranking is supposed to be a matter of gradient measures of skill, experience and understanding of a martial arty. That's what they mean to me. That's so what.

4. Point well made and point taken.

5. A. Yes. B. Not necessarily. I jsut recently watched a video with Tony Diego and Antonio Illustrisimo on it I could tell who the teacher was and who the student was. Tony Diego is the successor to GM Illustrisimo and was good but the GM was the GM. Perhaps a brown belt and a lower black belt...maybe.

All in all, great posts.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - When I was in San Francisco for the First FMA Gathering, did we meet? If not, I'd like to meet you some time.

arnisador

05-22-2003, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by John J
However, what does Dr. Gyi's endorsement have to do with ranking in the FMA? Regarding juniors promoting, I beg to differ. It is not common practice in the Philippines or FMA in general. The board should consist of his peers and seniors. They are the ONLY qualified individuals to make such assessment.

This is a no-win situation. To find someone higher than 6th degree in Modern Arnis one pretty much has to go to the Phil. But back there the form of Modern Arnis they're doing is at the least a different 'dialect' and nearly qualifies as a different art--the Prof. changed it so much here in the U.S. So, looking within the art is tough--esp. when you consider that Mr. Hartman is one of the datus of the art, which was supposed to be a sign of leadership within the art that was in some sense 'beyond' rank.

Dr. Gyi was close to the Prof. and was explicitly asked by the Prof. to help the Prof.'s students. Mr. Jornales is a Modern Arnis datu and a FMA grandmaster. Their endorsement seems relevant to me.

But the promotion is from the board. This is the Kenpo model, which again seems rather relevant to me--several Kenpoka were promoted in this manner in the wake of the problems that beset Kenpo after the passing of Ed Parker. Mr. Hartman had been close to the Kenpo community for years. He sought the counsel of Huk Planas in particular.

There was no winning on this one. There was no ideal way to proceed.

Dan Anderson

05-22-2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by John J
"However, what does Dr. Gyi's endorsement have to do with ranking in the FMA?"

Hi John J,

Tim and I talked about this over a year ago regarding the freezing of Modern Arnis ranks due to the death of our teacher. As two of the highest ranked North Americans (both 6th degree; mine in 1992 and his in 2000), we knew that this might end up being a sticky situation. Tim sought advice from several sources and mine was this: one gets promoted either by seniors or peers. Being promoted by a senior, whether by a board or a singular senior, is the most common way to go.

Being promoted by a senior not in your own style has precedents, though. Gichen Funakoshi was promoted to 5th dan when he was sent as a representative of Okinawan Karate to demonstrate for the emporer of Japan. The Budokai in Japan has granted recognitions of Shihan to many martial artists of various styles and arts.

Arnisador stated, "But back there the form of Modern Arnis they're doing is at the least a different 'dialect' and nearly qualifies as a different art--the Prof. changed it so much here in the U.S. So, looking within the art is tough..." Add to that this quote from Mark Wiley's book, Filipino Martial Arts Cabales Serrada Escrima, "Filipinos are a proud people, especially in the realm of personal combat. It is a rare practice for one Escrima master to acknowledge the skill of another, let alone speak of him with a tone of respect." Neither of had been to the Philippines so going there was not a realistic option. Dieter Knuettel, on the other hand, has been there numerous times and is known there.

Discussing this with Tim, I went over the historical data with him and felt that was the safest way to go. Since Remy Presas was then dead for over a year, being recognized by someone senior to us (Tim & myself) was better than a self promotion and could be contested slightly. We discussed the futility of promoting each other as neither of us had the rank to do so.

What gives his promotion the opening for attack was in the announcement of it. Those of in the know knew Dr. Gyi, GM Ric Jornales and Huk Planas were involved in the consulting. The announcement didn't say that and I feel that was the mistake.

The board made the announcement but the seniors made the call. I know this is in direct opposition to arnisador saying that the board made the promotion but I don't feel they would have gone ahead and done it without the direct support of the seniors. That's my opinion and I may be wrong.

Now let's go back to the quote of Arnisador's and consider something else. Tim is promoted to 7th dan in WMAA Modern Arnis. Nowhere is he saying he is also an IMAF, MARPPIO, IMAF, Inc., WMAC, old-school-back-in-the-Philippines Modern Arnis or Modern Arnis 80 7th dan. He is a WMAA Modern Arnis 7th dan, pure and simple.

All ranks before this one, whether Tim's, mine, Dieter's or anyone else's was given to us by Remy Presas. Those were in Remy Presas' Modern Arnis. There are, realistically, no more of these ranks to be awarded. None. The founder is dead and the dialects of Modern Arnis will flourish. There is historical precedent for that as well. One need only look at pictures of Gichin Funakoshi and current day Shotokan karate practitioners and the changes are evident.

A long winded answer, John J, but one I hope that fully answers your question.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Rich Parsons

05-22-2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i dont think its necessary to have so many degrees in the philippine martial arts. like i said, most philippine martial arts have only fighting techniques and strategy to learn, and less than what is in most foreign styles. for the ranking of older filipinos, they do not have these kinds of rankings. as a matter of fact i the only ones i know who use those dan rankings are the presas brothers and carlito lanada, but they have japanese martial art influences. most other fma "masters" are called master and recognized to be a master by his community. i believe that only the fighter can give himself a title like that, and its up to the community around him to use the title. as long as that master can back it up, or have students that can back it up.

In Traditional FMA, I agree with you. In Balintawak, I have the privilege of having the rank of Student of Manong Ted Buot. Yet, when we write his name many of us do it as Manong (GM) Ted Buot. Not only out of Respect, but to also to honor the man. In Modern Arnis, the GM created ranks and left us with them.

Now to quote you again.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i believe that only the fighter can give himself a title like that, and its up to the community around him to use the title. as long as that master can back it up, or have students that can back it up.

Wow, wait a second, here are you saying what I think you are saying. If the students of a fighter say he is a master, and they can back it up then the teacher is a master. Or if the Teacher can back it up himself, he can keep the title master? Then there should be no problem with Tim Hartman getting a 7th Degree from his Students as long as he can back it up. Therefore you problem is not with the students giving the rank, but the ranking system itself??? Just asking for clarification. Thank you :asian:

Originally posted by thekuntawman
in the case that only your peers in the philippines can promote somebody, if they are the only ones with higher rankings, then, yes, you will have to go there. or bring them here. but see the arrogance, many people dont want to do that, because they think it would make them less than the filipino, and the only one they want to respect is remy himself. you know you cant be a leader if you are not willing to follow. but i say again, who cares about those higher ranking, especially if you didnt take more classes to get them?

I would be thrilled to train with most anyone, including those in the PI. Yet, I cannot just pack up and go there right now. I have no place to stay. It is unfriendly to Americans. (* My Company has a no-travel policy right now based upon Government warnings of danger :( *) And as I would expect the seniors in the PI to expect me to not only train but to also return many times before anything is given or tested for.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
now lets say remy dies when there is only 3rd and 4th degree black belters around. is there really a need to get a 5th degree? so what? do you know that, carlito lanada, the founder of kuntaw ng pilipinas, his own daughter alice is a 4th degree? she had this degree in the 1980s and ten years later she still is. why is this, because she knows her dads art, and she does care to get a higher rank, even though her skill was better and 31 than it was when she was 21. if your teacher died when you are only a third degree and you "made it through the ranks" to a 7th degree, is it really the same? does it change your fighting art? how about how much respect your students will have for yourself? only in the FMA, will you find a 5th degree black belter with less than 10 years of arnis experience.

I agree that Rank has no input into actual Technique or skill level. Rank is for marketing and understanding how you have rated your skills. If you believe that Student / Fighter / Teacher / Master are sufficient then more power to you. You see I do not think you are wrong, I just ask you to consider that in our system our instructor did it differently.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
any way to answer your questions, rank is not something given out in the philippines by most teachers. only in the well establish schools do you find it. mostly your going to see people who learned from different masters, and some will have "permission" to teach his style, but most do not, and he is recognized as a teacher or master, simply because he introduce himself that way, and when the people see him move, they agree. certificates and titles and rankings, they are business practices. i do it in my school, but i didnt get certificates. i didnt even get one from ernesto presas and i am a second degree. i did get one from boggs lao and carlito lanada, because i saw one and i wanted one. it didnt cost me any money. when i was given a third degree black belt, he just said, your a third degree now.

I think the Canete Brothers also have a Ranking Program, as well as the Pekiti Tersia Organizations. Yet, I will say again, the old traditional systems did not have rank. I agree. Some people have decided to use it.

Let me ask you a few questions?

Do you Drive a car? Fly in a Plane? and or use a Micro Wave? or have a Cell Phone?

Cars a new, you could ride a bicycle or walk or ride a horse.

Planes are new and you could take an ocean going ship to get places, or maybe a train, if you want to use that modern advancement.

Microwave is Magic, it cooks without "Heat". And Cell Phones - you could use an old analog hand crank phone.

Oh Yeah do you use the Internet? You could always go back to trying to write paper letters to everyone you one to reach.

The point I am trying to make is that things change. Deal with it, or be like the Omish and live your life, yet do not condemn others that wish to move forward, whether you believe it to be right or not.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
the only real important thing is the martial arts is skill and ability. all that rankings stuff is show. if you take a good brown belter, and black belters of different degrees and take off there belts, i would bet you cant guess who has what, so what does that tell you.

Actually I agree with this statement. On Any given day anyone within a couple of ranks of someone else it could go either direction. Yet, Master or high rank degree BB versus teacher or low rank degree BB. I think it would be noticeable.

PS: I do not think you are a Racist, I think you are a proud Filipino who has an opinion, and unfortunately, wants everyone else to believe as he does. This does not detract from your skill or chances to post and reply here. Just recognize that others are different and may not always agree with you.
:asian:

Datu Tim Hartman

05-23-2003, 12:33 AM

It's about 12:30am. I'm back home and will have some stuff to say after I get some sleep.

thekuntawman

05-23-2003, 05:55 AM

i dont have any problem with tim hartman calling himself a 7th degree black belter, except for the fact of using those degrees and titles (datu) in arnis ( i dont like that idea). the reason is, that i believe most people who use them play on the ignorance of others, to make them believe the "new innovation" is actually a filipino practice or tradition (like kinomutai, pananjakman, datu, tuhon etc).

i dont doubt that mr hartman has good skills. me, personally i would prefer to see him give HIMSELF the title of 7th degree, screw what everybody thinks, then to have it given by his students and friends. i am a believer in the saying that your credibility and reputation in the martial arts comes from your opponents than your friends. i believe he is looking at the FMA through japanese eyes, and that is why he choses to have a "board" give him a rank. the filipino way, like i said, and most filipino teachers will say, is to declare yourself a master of the art (i do not) and let the community except it or dislike it. the bottom line is, that he knows he can back it up, and the only people he should be concern with are the ones who step to him to say he does not agree. with skills, friends and students, he doesnt need anyone else to like it.

from what i have seen, most people called "master" are called master by everyone around him, but he does not introduce himself as a master of the art, but a teacher of the art. really to hear a man who is young (50 or younger) to call himself a master, or manong, or some other revered title, is ridiculous. but if his students chose to call him a master, that is something different. respect is given, not awarded.

you asked "Therefore you problem is not with the students giving the rank, but the ranking system itself??? "
there is no problem at all with the rank. i just do not like dan rankings for the FMA. and i dont like the importance people are giving to gaining more rank. but i blame the seminar process, since rank goes so fast in them. if remy said, "your belt comes when you can beat my 1st degree, and then my second degree, etc", people would been more motivated to train for skill instead of rank. like what i saw with delaney and that lady from new hampshire ( i forgot her name), that was disgusting.

"If you believe that Student / Fighter / Teacher / Master are sufficient then more power to you. You see I do not think you are wrong, I just ask you to consider that in our system our instructor did it differently."
agreed. i do understand that modern arnis is different. remember i use to be a modern arnis too. but i was only giving my opinion of how i see the preferences of modern arnis players.

oh and about alice lanada, i meant to say that she does not care about rank and degrees.

i can accept change, since things that dont change become outdated. but i dont agree that the seminar style teaching and multipled rankings are good for the philippine arts. yeah so what more people will like it more. if kuntaw became kun tae bo, more people would do it, but do you see how silly that looks? martial arts men are suppose to be different and special than average guys, so to make it easier so everyone can do it and like it is suppose to improve it? i dont think so.

congratulations to tim hartman. i am still willing to bet that 6th degree tim hartman vs. 7th degree tim hartman would be a draw. i dont see the benefit in the extra degree.

Brian Johns

05-23-2003, 06:38 AM

Kuntawman,

You wrote very eloquently and you make some very good points in there. Maybe moromoro can learn a lesson or two in how to write a respectful post ???

Guro Harold

05-23-2003, 07:13 AM

I agree, its one thing to have strong opinions and state them logically and with intelligence than to insult, belittle, and accuse.

One produces dialog and discussion which can hopefully produce respect and an understanding, while the other approach produces negativity.

John J

05-23-2003, 11:32 AM

This is a no-win situation. To find someone higher than 6th degree in Modern Arnis one pretty much has to go to the Phil. But back there the form of Modern Arnis they're doing is at the least a different 'dialect' and nearly qualifies as a different art--the Prof. changed it so much here in the U.S. So, looking within the art is tough--esp. when you consider that Mr. Hartman is one of the datus of the art, which was supposed to be a sign of leadership within the art that was in some sense 'beyond' rank.

We all win or better yet learn from the contributions. Let me state my points again. I said that peers (of equal level) along with seniors are the only individual's that are qualified to make the assessment. Now, would I be correct to use the analogy of the JKD community wherein there is original JKD and JKD Concepts? In other words, the evolution of present day MA is a result of the many influences and resources availble to Remy? If this is the case, then yes...the players back home, peers or seniors would not count.

Dr. Gyi was close to the Prof. and was explicitly asked by the Prof. to help the Prof.'s students. Mr. Jornales is a Modern Arnis datu and a FMA grandmaster. Their endorsement seems relevant to me.

I never questioned Bong's endorsement. However, I do question the validity of Dr. Gyi's involvement on ranking. I am aware of his ties to Remy but is he knowledgeable or skilled enough in present day MA or FMA in general or is his support more for a character reference?

But the promotion is from the board. This is the Kenpo model, which again seems rather relevant to me--several Kenpoka were promoted in this manner...

Let's not dwell on the ranking "practices" of Karate, Kenpo or whater else as they simply do pertain to Arnis / Eskrima. To use them as a guide or model does not validate anything.

Add to that this quote from Mark Wiley's book, Filipino Martial Arts Cabales Serrada Escrima, "Filipinos are a proud people, especially in the realm of personal combat. It is a rare practice for one Escrima master to acknowledge the skill of another, let alone speak of him with a tone of respect." Neither of had been to the Philippines so going there was not a realistic option.

I agree, Filipinos are proud. However, I disagree with Mark's comments. Although there is some "friendly animosity", there is plenty of camaraderie back home. Back in 97', Master Galang visited the PI with several students. Along with Master Ricketts, he arranged for the students to meet & train with several GM's; GM Jose Mena of Doblete Rapillon, GM Nene Tortal of Tirada-Tirsia and GM Ben Lema of Lightning Scientific. The plans with GM Lema fell through but all went well with GM Mena & GM Tortal. There are many more instances where friendship and respect outweigh arrogance.

So, my final question is, will this rank be recognized by non-WMAA practitioners???

Cruentus

05-23-2003, 11:51 AM

So, my final question is, will this rank be recognized by non-WMAA practitioners???

I'll let some others reply, but the short answer is yes; and I believe that this rank already has been recognized outside the WMAA! :)

Dan Anderson

05-23-2003, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by John J
1) We all win or better yet learn from the contributions. Let me state my points again. I said that peers (of equal level) along with seniors are the only individual's that are qualified to make the assessment. Now, would I be correct to use the analogy of the JKD community wherein there is original JKD and JKD Concepts? In other words, the evolution of present day MA is a result of the many influences and resources availble to Remy? If this is the case, then yes...the players back home, peers or seniors would not count.

2) Let's not dwell on the ranking "practices" of Karate, Kenpo or whater else as they simply do pertain to Arnis / Eskrima. To use them as a guide or model does not validate anything.

3) I agree, Filipinos are proud. However, I disagree with Mark's comments. Although there is some "friendly animosity", there is plenty of camaraderie back home. There are many more instances where friendship and respect outweigh arrogance.

4) So, my final question is, will this rank be recognized by non-WMAA practitioners???

John J,
Again, a well stated series of opinions and questions. My reply:

1. Present day Modern Arnis is a composite of the influences Remy Presas had throughout his life: his grandfather's art, balintawak, karate, judo, small circle jujutsu and ryukyu kempo - all in varying degrees. I would almost make a division between Philippines Remy Presas Modern Arnis and American Remy Presas Modern Arnis. I think that would be far more correct. Personally, I don't disregard any of RP's Filipino students but I have little in common with them either as I really don't know them or have trained with them other than Shishir Inocalla.

2. Except that we are in the US and the board needed some sort of model to proceed by.

3. Excellent!

4. Not sure. There will be a number of non-WMAA players who might raise a fuss. As I said in a previous post, "Tim is promoted to 7th dan in WMAA Modern Arnis. Nowhere is he saying he is also an IMAF, MARPPIO, IMAF, Inc., WMAC, old-school-back-in-the-Philippines Modern Arnis or Modern Arnis 80 7th dan. He is a WMAA Modern Arnis 7th dan, pure and simple."

I accept and support him as that.

One might say that this doesn't answer your question as I am a member of WMAA but let me say that I am first a student of the late Remy Presas; second, I am the head of my own branch of Modern Arnis (Modern Arnis 80); and third; I am a WMAA member - in that order. As someone who has more years in Modern Arnis as well as in the martial arts than Tim and have been a 6th Degree for 8 years longer than Tim, I could be first in line to cry "Foul!" and piss, $h!t and moan about the illegalities and inequities of it all. This is not the case. Since the death of our teacher, there has been a rank freeze in the mother art. Dieter went to the Philippines and received his 7th from the Philippine seniors. Tim received his from the board and senior advisors. I have not resolved the issue for myself as of yet.

Here's my question for you: do you recognize it?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Rich Parsons

05-23-2003, 04:52 PM

thekuntawman,

Thank you for your reply. As stated by Dan Anderson, well written and with your opinions and questions still in order.

Pesonally, I think we would get along just fine :D, and even share a beer or glass of lemonade, or whatever is being served.

As to the JD and McManus presentation of Modern Arnis, I would have to agree with you. And very few would disagree with your comments on that subject.

I have to go help my Brother move into his new house. His first. I will try to reply to your questions later. :D

Enjoy the weekend and the holiday.
:asian:

arnisador

05-23-2003, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by John J
Let's not dwell on the ranking "practices" of Karate, Kenpo or whater else as they simply do pertain to Arnis / Eskrima. To use them as a guide or model does not validate anything.[/B]

You make several good points; I want to disagree with this one. The Prof. introduced Japanese-style belt rankings and kata to Modern Arnis, and added a fair amount of Small Circle Ju-Jitsu techniques. I believe that it's relevant to the art of Modern Arnis.

I also think we can look to JKD and Kenpo more generally as examples of what to do and what not to do after the passing of a grandmaster without a clear and universally accepted successor.

Datu Tim Hartman

05-23-2003, 10:06 PM

This thread has gone into two directions.

1. How did the WMAA come up with the formula to promote Tim Hartman?
2. Calling my promotion a McDojo promotion as stated by Moro Moro.

I will address the promotion procedure in this post.

First of all Remy introduced a Japanese-style belt ranking system to go from white to 10th degree black belt. At the time of his death I had earn a 6th degree black belt. We in the WMAA felt that we needed to be able to continue promoting ALL levels of black belts so that our members weren’t capped at 5th degree. We consulted with several different groups the found themselves in similar circumstances to see how they dealt with the problem. After doing the research we felt that the promotion should come from our advisory board and we would look for some endorsements from outside the system.

When choosing our method we searched for what would be most accepted in the martial arts community and not just the FMA community. Seeing that this was a US based organization this seemed to be the most accepted procedure. We know that not everyone will agree with our method, but this is what we chose to do. I would like to thank everyone who tried to keep this thread polite even if they did not agree with our methods.

Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance

:asian:

moromoro

05-24-2003, 12:57 AM

so in 3 years you went from a 6th degree black belt to a 7th degree black belt?????????????

pretty fast isnt it?

moromoro

05-24-2003, 01:00 AM

also on the august issue of black belt magazine (1998)

you said that you really only had a teacher 5 or 6 times a year.

could you please explain this

are you saying that you only trained with your GM 5 to 6 times a year?

did you train with him for longer periods? how long?

terry

Matt Stone

05-24-2003, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by moromoro
so in 3 years you went from a 6th degree black belt to a 7th degree black belt?????????????

pretty fast isnt it?

Well, in only a few months of posting here, you're a 2nd degree black belt! :lol:

While normally I very vehemently oppose ranking from people outside one's own style, ranking from people who do not study and "outrank" you in one's own style, or board examinations to promote someone beyond a grade that no one on that board posesses, in the case of Mr. Hartman and Modern Arnis within the WMAA, I don't see that he had any other choice available to him...

Someone asked "well, isn't 6th dan enough?"

Not if the WMAA ever wants to promote someone beyond that, or if they ever want anyone to reach 6th dan (normally folks feel that to promote someone to a level, you need to be at least one or two levels above it - thereby limiting the WMAA to only a few more generations of senior black belts before the best they could do would be 1st dan!).

Someone commented "Remy gave him 6th dan," and implied that that was all Remy wanted to give him in so commenting. Regrettably, though, we are unable to ask the source what his intentions were, yes?

I have no affiliation with the WMAA whatsoever. Sure, I trained with/under one of Mr. Hartman's students, but I hold no official ties with their organization. I normally oppose such practices, but I think that in Mr. Hartman's case there was nothing wrong with what was done...

Maybe Moromoro just has a burr under his saddle that he can't get to just yet. In time, perhaps he will reach a level of greater understanding of things beyond technique and will realize that sometimes to grow you need to do something others may not be happy with. And I don't remember the WMAA asking folks in general what they thought of it, either... :rolleyes:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

bloodwood

05-24-2003, 07:50 AM

Tim Hartman is one of only six people to be awarded the title of Datu by Professor Presas. I have been told that Professor's goal was to have ten Datu to carry on and develop his beloved Modern Arnis. At the time of his passing there were only six, so that is where the Datu list will end. Clearly the Datu are not fixated on rank, shown by the fact that one of them holds no rank in Modern Arnis at all. He has developed his own system and is the GM of that system. Two of them are Filipino, three are from the USA and one from Europe. This mix clearly shows that the Professor did not require the holders of his special title to be from the homeland, as only two are from there. On his last trip to the PI, Professor promoted several of the older students there to 8th degree. NONE were made Datu. Maybe because although they were all excellent arnisadors they did not have the qualities that Professor was looking for in a Datu.
From what knowledge I have gathered on this, it is the task of the Datu's to continue to not only preserve Modern Arnis but to stretch it's limits and to keep it an ever changing and growing art. If you look at the personalties of those chosen to be Datu you can see the connection. All are outspoken, confident and moving in all different directions while still holding on to what they learned from the Professor.
If any of the Datu are promoted to any rank up to but not including tenth (reserve this one for Professor) it is well within their right, no mater how they see fit to do so. They are the movers and shakers of the art and promotions are just part of the mix. All they are doing is continuing the natural order of things.

I have met and trained with three of them and I look foreword to some day seeing the others and to learn from them.
:asian:

The Boar Man

05-24-2003, 09:13 AM

Interesting thread

FWIW it does appear that Terry does have an axe to grind (for what ever reason) with Tim Hartman. Or he is just trying to stir up a debate on this board. Which he seems quite good at, however he does bring forth some good points to ponder on the whole rank issue.

Different people will feel differently about it and everybody will never be able to be satisfied with the end product or result.

An Isshin ryu instructor that I know told me that when Sensei Simabuku (the arts founder) died, that after he passed away his students here in America had the same problem so they went about the promotion in the same manner as Datu Hartman did. So again what came about with Datu Hartman has been done before.

If I remember right from a discussion we had, he trained under two instructors who were high ranked Isshin ryu instructors who had studied under the founder for many years. When the founder died his instructors froze their ranks, he was graded up as high they could grade him and that was it. And frankly that was as high as he cared to go.

I was helping teach an American TKD class at this Isshin ryu school. And the head owner/instructor and the American TKD class and I went to a tournament. Our discussion came about due to the host of the tournament had on his trophies Grandmaster ******. This in a sense offended the Isshinryu instructor because who made this guy a GM. Well it was a board of his peers (other American instructors) who felt this instructor should be recgonized as a GM and they did it. (This backs up what the WMAA did with Datu Hartman again.) However the Isshin ryu instructor asked me about it, we discussed it and left it at that. (He felt like Terry does.) He didn't ***** and moan about it (although not like Terry does :D ) he just didn't like it.

To this instructor rank wasn't important, in fact he didn't care about it really. All he wanted to do was teach and practice what he loved the most, Isshin ryu and all else paled in comparison. In fact he lost money on his school for several years (he was in a financial position to do this) (I couldn't do it) just so he would have a place to train and teach other people. However in time he ended up having to sell the place and setting up a dojo at his house for his serious students.

However the other side of the coin is this. Datu Hartman, just like this other GM I was talking about both run large organizations and both spread their respected arts, influencing hundereds, thousands, of individuals. In thier systems they have many students/instructors under them who (I'm sure) derive some financial gain from the organizations, and to whom in turn they pay fees to be associated with and use the associations materials and such. Which were developed by these senior instructors. So now there is a money interest in this. Since money enters the picture there is the responsibility on the organization to continue to grow/expand and thereby compete with other organizations of the like in the world. And part of that will be in time promote and grow in rank.

Battery is dieing
don't want to lose the post

With respect
Mark

Cruentus

05-24-2003, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
so in 3 years you went from a 6th degree black belt to a 7th degree black belt?????????????

pretty fast isnt it?

Actually, Tim was promoted sometime before Professor passed away to 6th, so I believe it was closer to 4 years between 6th and 7th, maybe longer.

Regardless, anything longer then 3 years between rank is not a "too fast" of a promotion, in my opinion.

Dan Anderson

05-24-2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
so in 3 years you went from a 6th degree black belt to a 7th degree black belt?????????????

pretty fast isnt it?

Hi Terry,

Your reference for number of years needed for promotion from one lakan grade to another is in the book Modern Arnis Philippine Martial art "stick Fighting" by Remy Presas, chapter titled Ranking Of Players In Arnis.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan Anderson

05-24-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
This thread has gone into two directions.

2. Calling my promotion a McDojo promotion as stated by Moro Moro.

Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance

:asian:

Tim McHartman...Hmmmmm...I didn't know you were Irish. :D

Yours,
Dan McAnderson

dearnis.com

05-24-2003, 01:50 PM

Tim McHartman...Hmmmmm...I didn't know you were Irish.

Well, he wishes....

:rofl:

arnisador

05-24-2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Your reference for number of years needed for promotion from one lakan grade to another is in the book Modern Arnis Philippine Martial art "stick Fighting" by Remy Presas, chapter titled Ranking Of Players In Arnis.

According to my copy:

Each rank, from Lakan-Isa (or Dayang-Isa) to Lakan-Anim (or Dayang-Anim) can be awarded after every 2 years of continuous study and practice of the art. Lakan-Pito to Lakan-Sampu will be awarded after every 3 years of continuous study of the art.

(Emphasis added; pg. 159 of my copy.) Other comments are clearly no longer relevant. The book emphasises Modern Arnis as a sport and says, e.g., that competition in tournaments is required of those holding lakan rank if they wish to advance. I suspect moromoro and thekuntawman will agree with that advice but in my experience the Prof. never taught that tournament fighting was even a part of Modern Arnis. Mr. Hartman and I would spar one another on our own but it never happened in a supervised (by the Prof.) setting.

moromoro

05-25-2003, 03:31 AM

hi guys iam sorry for the title of this thread

this was a mistake and i have apologize for it

yes dan i have the book and iam looking at it now. it also states the "that all ranks in the lakan category will be awarded only after it is proven that the practitioner has conducted himself ably and expertly in tournaments".

did the Prof change his mind about tournaments???

JUST ONE MORE POINT IF, SHOULDNT DAN HAVE GOTTEN THAT 7TH DEGREE WAY before you tim.

'ONLY ONE HOLDS THE RANK OF LAKAN SAMPU, REMY A PRESAS, THE AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK".

NOW will this change or does the WMAA have plans to promote you tim to 10 degree???? if current trends continue you should be there by 2012 or before..........

my final point is, i dont care if any one gets a lakan sampu in MA, (one guy already has it doesnt he :D )

i just want to know whay so soon between grade from the wmaa, when the prof would wait many years usually...

thanks

terry

bloodwood

05-25-2003, 07:41 AM

The average time between promotions by the Professor, for active upper belt students was three years. Datu and other special titles were as he saw fit, with no regard for time. The WMAA is following that guideline that the Professor used. I see no problem with it. Life goes on. To freeze rank where it was when the Professor passed would be counter productive to propagating the art as was the Professor's way.

moromoro

05-25-2003, 07:49 AM

The average time between promotions by the Professor, for active upper belt students was three years.

OK.

Dan what about you, if you where graded to 6 degree in 92 and are with out a doudt the most senior of US senior grades in the art, did you feel it was unnessasary to be graded again or was this the prof choice??????

if what bloodwood is saying is correct then you should be comming to 9th now?

also bloodwood if the prof would religiously grade upper grade students every 3 years you would have a lot more high level degrees out there!!!!

is bloodwoods statement correct?

thanks

terry

bloodwood

05-25-2003, 08:18 AM

also bloodwood if the prof would religiously grade upper grade students every 3 years you would have a lot more high level degrees out there!!!!

This was not the case with all upper belts, just those that the Professor saw on a regular basis. This was the average timeline he used but is was not set in stone. The Professor, like his art, was go with the flow and nothing he did was rigid or set in stone.
On several occasions he has taken off his own belt and given it to someone and promoted them on the spot regardless of the time of their last promotion. However the Professor is gone and we do need some guidline for promotions. The WMAA seems to be doing the right thing. They are also the first to do such a promotion following the Professor's passing, so they will take most of the heat. They have paved the way for others to move on.

arnisador

05-25-2003, 02:07 PM

The Prof.'s time between rankings were highly variable. I've seen people promoted every year for a few years in a row and others lag. I largely agree with what bloodwood has said however.

To the question of tournaments--that was never a part of Modern Arnis since I started in the mid-80s. Frankly, I felt that the Prof. actively discouraged us from such competition. He emphasized having fun training together, not competition.

Others may have had a different experience than me, and other FMAs may be different. In the WMAA sparring is now mandatory for the black belt test (padded sticks). But that was my experience.

Dan Anderson

05-25-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
OK.

1. Dan what about you, if you where graded to 6 degree in 92 and are with out a doudt the most senior of US senior grades in the art, did you feel it was unnessasary to be graded again or was this the prof choice??????

2. if what bloodwood is saying is correct then you should be comming to 9th now?

3. also bloodwood if the prof would religiously grade upper grade students every 3 years you would have a lot more high level degrees out there!!!!

4. is bloodwoods statement correct?

thanks

terry

Hi Terry,
1) Every promotion was the Prof's choice. How I was raised up in the martial arts, you didn't ask your teacher for a promotion.
2) Where I feel I should be ranked is between me and me for the time being.
3) Religeously is the key word here. If he religeously graded every three years, yes, there would be a lot more high ranks out there.
4) Can't say.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

bloodwood

05-25-2003, 04:07 PM

posted by arnisador

To the question of tournaments--that was never a part of Modern Arnis since I started in the mid-80s. Frankly, I felt that the Prof. actively discouraged us from such competition. He emphasized having fun training together, not competition

On more than one occasion in private conversation with the Professor he told me that one of the reasons for his forming Modern Arnis was to get away from his violent past and to keep the art of Arnis alive. In his younger fighting days many people were injured to the point of being cripples. The art was dying because the number of people willing to play was diminishing. So to expand the art Professor became a kinder friendlier person. What good is it to be the badest dude around if nobody will play with you. Even though he stopped fighting he was still the badest dude around but knew that propagating the Filipino arts was the most important thing. Beating each other senseless is not the answer however there are times when it's needed but not on a constant basis. What the Professor did was give us the tools we needed for when it was the proper time. He must have been on to something because Modern Arnis still is the most practiced Filipino art in the world.

Datu Tim Hartman

05-25-2003, 05:38 PM

Now I will address “FMA MCDOJO now I have seen it all”

This thread is nothing but an attack on me! Moro came on MT as an A$$, and I told him so. He started getting intel from other forums, which I was already aware of, then after announcing that I was going on tour in Sweden, he started his attack. From there he continued to ask for my input, knowing I wouldn’t have much access to the net. Now I’m back and let the games begin!

This is not the first gutless wonder that has hidden behind the safety of a computer trying to start problems with me. Remy always told me that the better I did the more clowns would take shots at me. What makes this more interesting is the fact that this clown is not even a Modern Arnis player! My promotion is none of his business. The Modern Arnis community does not have to answer to him.

That being said let me clear up one little point. I was the ONLY American that was in Germany when Remy was diagnosed with the tumor. After receiving treatment, Remy wanted to promote me to head of the system. I told him not to worry about it because he would get better and continue to teach. When I got back from Germany, I called Dr. Randy Shea to inform him of Remy’s condition and that Remy had offered me the system. I also informed him that I thought it would be best to keep people away that might try to take advantage of Remy’s frail health. A month later, a statement named a group of my juniors in rank as being the new successors, including Dr. Shea. Maybe Remy thought when I turned him down that I didn’t want to help in Modern Arnis’ future. I don’t know. Year’s prior to his illness, he would introduce me as his anak (tagalog for son) and one of his successors. This was not done behind closed doors; he would do this at the beginning and the end of seminars he was teaching.

Another side note for you - when I received my 6th degree promotion, it was after I tested for it. At the end of the test, Remy said that it was the highest test that was run in Modern Arnis in over 17 years which would put this back to 1983. My test was not based on time served in the art, but my knowledge and physical ability to perform. On more than one occasion, I had been offered promotions without having to test. But I always insisted on taking the test, so no one could come back and say that it was a “political” black belt. I also produced twenty black belts all of whom tested in front of Professor, earning belts all the way up to third degree black. To my knowledge, no one in North America has ever come close to accomplishing this feat beside myself. That being said, Moro Moro may realize he’s wrong, but I doubt it.

I’m sick of you stirring up crap and backing down by saying “You misunderstand” every time people stand their ground. This thread has been nothing but a challenge to me, and now I ACCEPT! It’s time for you to Bring it, not sing it! I will be in Cebu and Manila in the last two weeks of July 2004. Personally I don’t want to wait that long. I’m thinking that maybe Martial Talk could do a fund raiser to get you plane tickets so we can meet much sooner! If you decide to back up your challenge remember this, NO sparring equipment and bring money, because I don’t fight for free!

Datu Tim Hartman
Speaking for myself and no one else!

To all of Martial Talks Administration team, if I have gone to far on this post I am more than willing to accept any disciplinary action that is warranted.

Master of Blades

05-25-2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Renegade

I’m sick of you stirring up crap and backing down by saying “You misunderstand” every time people stand their ground. This thread has been nothing but a challenge to me, and now I ACCEPT! It’s time for you to Bring it, not sing it! I will be in Cebu and Manila in the last two weeks of July 2004. Personally I don’t want to wait that long. I’m thinking that maybe Martial Talk could do a fund raiser to get you plane tickets so we can meet much sooner! If you decide to back up your challenge remember this, NO sparring equipment and bring money, because I don’t fight for free!

Datu Tim Hartman
Speaking for myself and no one else!

Now THIS just got a whole lot more interesting.......:eek:

Dan Anderson

05-25-2003, 07:20 PM

Okay Terry,
It's time to put up or shut up. You threw down the gauntlet adn it has been picked up.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Mao

05-25-2003, 07:35 PM

Does anyone remember susumu kodai? Why is this guy getting any more play than him? Sorry admins.. I couldn't help it. If you must spank me, make it hurt. :rofl:

Master of Blades

05-25-2003, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Mao
Does anyone remember susumu kodai? Why is this guy getting any more play than him? Sorry admins.. I couldn't help it. If you must spank me, make it hurt. :rofl:

I dont get it :confused:

Mao

05-25-2003, 08:31 PM

do you remember susumu kodai?

Master of Blades

05-25-2003, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by Mao
do you remember susumu kodai?

I'm 16 so I'm guessing I was too young.....care to enlighten me :D

Bob Hubbard

05-25-2003, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Master of Blades
I'm 16 so I'm guessing I was too young.....care to enlighten me :D

Do a search on the user name....you'll understand then grass-flopper. :)

Brian Johns

05-25-2003, 09:45 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Anderson

1. Present day Modern Arnis is a composite of the influences Remy Presas had throughout his life: his grandfather's art, balintawak, karate, judo, small circle jujutsu and ryukyu kempo - all in varying degrees. I would almost make a division between Philippines Remy Presas Modern Arnis and American Remy Presas Modern Arnis. I think that would be far more correct. Personally, I don't disregard any of RP's Filipino students but I have little in common with them either as I really don't know them or have trained with them other than Shishir Inocalla.>>>>>>

I absolutely agree with Dan, particularly with regard to the version of Modern Arnis taught in the 1990's up through Professor's death.

Just wanted to add one little thing to the above list. One other influence on Remy's present day Modern Arnis is wing chun, due to his wife, Yvette Wong, who is a wing chun player in Canada.

Take care,
Brian

arnisador

05-25-2003, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by bloodwood
On more than one occasion in private conversation with the Professor he told me that one of the reasons for his forming Modern Arnis was to get away from his violent past and to keep the art of Arnis alive. In his younger fighting days many people were injured to the point of being cripples. The art was dying because the number of people willing to play was diminishing. So to expand the art Professor became a kinder friendlier person. What good is it to be the badest dude around if nobody will play with you. Even though he stopped fighting he was still the badest dude around but knew that propagating the Filipino arts was the most important thing. Beating each other senseless is not the answer however there are times when it's needed but not on a constant basis. What the Professor did was give us the tools we needed for when it was the proper time. He must have been on to something because Modern Arnis still is the most practiced Filipino art in the world.

My experiences with the Prof. were very similar to what bloodwood describes here. The Prof. often spoke of getting away from the violence (how many times did we hear the "they let me live--because I was a boy" story?) and moving toward the positive.

Additionally, he wanted a general self-defense and exercise art, not one limited to stick-fencing. His early interest with Modern Arnis was strongly in physical education and later, in the States, he grew more concerned with general self-defense.

Brian Johns

05-25-2003, 10:24 PM

Wow, things are now getting interesting here. While I might question whether it's wise to get down to the level of moromoro's immaturity, I do question moromoro's mindset or approach to the arts. It appears that he is bent on denigrating Modern Arnis in the United States, even without having seen any of the Modern Arnis players in the US. It appears that moromoro is offended because we are not Filipino or that we did not train with Professor every single day. Based on scant information, he has concluded that we are not good arnis players.

What he does not realize is that many Modern Arnis players have had vast experience in the martial arts prior to meeting Professor. Because of this prior experience, many of us intuitively understand the principles and concepts being imparted to us by Professor. We then are able to extrapolate from the concepts and principles and practice.

You might scoff at this approach. But one must be reminded that Professor traveled all over the Phillipines researching and learning before forming Modern Arnis. We are doing the same thing here in the US. Indeed, our inspiration for this approach to the martial arts is Professor himself.

Moromoro proclaims to laugh at those who saw Professor only 5 or 6 times per year. While that is true, there were many Modern Arnis players who traveled with the Professor extensively. I know one person who attended nearly every seminar and camp with Professor as well as having private workouts for several years. Spent his life savings and put a strain on his marriage. Many others did that.

A short story here to illustrate that a smart person can learn much despite limited contact with Professor. There was once a man who had only two years of formal schooling in backwoods Kentucky. This was in the early 1800's. Despite the fact that he had only two years of school, this man, as a young boy, developed a great hunger for the written word. Not too many people lived in the area that this man lived in. He grew up dirt poor. As a young boy, he asked every visitor in that part of Kentucky if they had a book and if he could borrow it. He studied the grammar, the syntax, the spelling and sentence structure. Understanding the basic principles of the English language which he got only from TWO years of school, he went on to master the English language. Indeed, he became one of the great masters of the English language of all time.

The man's name. Abraham Lincoln.

He is the perfect example of one who learned the basic principles and mastered it.

I believe the same applies to an experienced and intelligent martial artist. I daresay that alot of Modern Arnis players have had a great deal of experience in the martial arts before meeting Remy. As a matter of fact, I got the impression that Remy favored the people with prior martial arts experience as he knew that they would understand the principles of Modern Arnis right away.

Again, one may scoff at this. Let's consider what Prof Visitacion (otherwise known as Prof Vee) once said to me. He said that music contains 7 basic tones (I'm not a music guy here, so bear with me). These 7 notes can be arranged in many different ways. All music are the same in that they contain those same basic notes, except that different kinds of music arrange their notes differently.

Same with the martial arts. Experienced martial artists understand that, at a higher level, things begin to look the same. That's why it was easier for experienced martial artists to understand what Professor was teaching.

Certainly, there will be problems with a person with absolutely zero martial arts experience. That person does not have the basic fundamentals that would enable him or her to understand what Professor was imparting at seminars and camps.

So, with an experienced martial artist learning Modern Arnis from Professor, there was a multi faceted approach.

(1) Seminars with Professor
(2) Camps with Professor
(3) Private workouts with Professor
(4) Teaching modern arnis to willing students. You learn a lot by teaching.
(5) Videos.

Believe me, among the different Modern Arnis organizations, Professor has left behind several bad ass players.

Lastly, the condescending attitude toward American Modern Arnis players brings to mind those militant Islamic terrorists who consider everyone else "infidels" and that even extends to other Muslims who do not follow their brand of Islam. You see this same kind of narrow mindedness in Christianity and other ideologies. I use this only as an example. The point is that there is a certain narrow mindedness that is present here by moromoro. It appears that, in his eyes, we are "infidels" as far as the FMA is concerned. Therefore, we are not following the path.

Hogwash. Your path is not our path. We all have our paths to travel. To paraphrase Bruce Lee (and to a limited extent, the great philosopher Jiddu Krishamurti), your truth is not my truth or any other Modern Arnis player's truth. It appears that you fail to recognize that you have your own path to travel and that is the only path that you should be concerned with. It appears that you are far more concerned about our paths and journeys than about your own. So why fuss so much about others ? Concentrate on your own path and your own truth or you will lose sight of what you are seeking.

Now off my soapbox.

Take care,
Brian Johns
Columbus, Ohio

Rich Parsons

05-26-2003, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by Renegade
Personally I don’t want to wait that long. I’m thinking that maybe Martial Talk could do a fund raiser to get you plane tickets so we can meet much sooner! If you decide to back up your challenge remember this, NO sparring equipment and bring money, because I don’t fight for free!

Terry,

I have $100.00 USD for a plane ticket, and the pool, on One Condition. This lowly little Lakan Tatlo get first crack to cross canes with you. Challenges are usually not my deal, yet if it is what you need for a lesson on how FMA in the States is done. Then Fine.

If you Apologize to the USA and FMA practitioners for your insults, then maybe, I'll drop it. If you do not then, I say you are nothing but a speed bump in my life as I run you over.

Remember, if you have a specific problem with a person say so. If you have a specific problem with a group say so. Do not generalize and insult at the same time. I wanted to post something like this, yet I got a phone call and Tim Told me he wanted to reply later, so I edited my post, AKA "Mis post". Yet, I feel that others have been insulted as well, and as Tim has plans to be in the PI in July, I offer to take up the stick here in the USA, and to educate you in the errors of you way.

I also realize that not many will, want to pay for my pleasure of the fight. Yet I Promise, if any money is made from the video tape, and or attendance, I will make sure people get their investment back.

I told you Terry, you were not making friends.

As Robert A. Heinlein said "Waiting is . . ."

Have a nice day I know I did :D

To all of Martial Talks Administration team, if I have gone to far on this post I am more than willing to accept any disciplinary action that is warranted.

arnisador

05-26-2003, 01:21 AM

MartialTalk is not the place to plan challenges. Please use it to plan friendly training only. Anything else should be taken to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Bob Hubbard

05-26-2003, 02:03 AM

MartialTalk Policy updates and changes:

In the past few weeks several things have happened on this board that have caused concerns among both the staff and our members. These concerns cover a wide range of things. This is our attempt to address them.

First, a point of history.

MartialTalk.com was originally setup in August of 2001 to serve as a discussion forum for a regional web portal. It was never in my wildest dreams that it would be as popular as it is, and go truly world wide. In fact, it has long since outgrown and absorbed its parent site.

MartialTalk is for the “friendly” discussion of ‘martial arts’. The key here is this exact phase. My mental image of MartialTalk is a big living room, everyone relaxing with a cool beverage, chatting about their arts, swapping stories, news, techniques and info.

It is not a place to puff your chest, flex your muscles, get on the soapbox and rabble rouse. Nor is it the place to expose your dirty laundry, spread rumors and lies, stab in the back, and run smear campaigns.

It is not the place for ‘egos’, ‘attitudes’ and ‘agendas’.

We have seen the following problems over the recent few weeks flare up greatly. It is our growing concern that left unchecked, these issues will seriously damage, possibly destroy all the hard work we have all put into this site.

1: Off Topic posts, and major thread drift.
We have specific forums for specific areas. Please, use them. As our post count climbs higher, it is harder and harder for our staff to keep up with policing everything. We need your –active- help. Please post on topic to each thread. If it starts to drift, help steer it back on track by a: -politely- bringing up the original topic and b: starting a new thread for the tangent.

2: Fraud Busting.
Every art has its frauds, fakers, and plain misguided folks. Some of them are obvious, some are not. The purpose of MartialTalk is –not- to be the place that’s the master list of who is legit and who is not. We have -one- forum target at the “Bad Budo” idea. If you have specific information on such things, post it there. The constant jumping from forum to forum and thread to thread of this desire by several well meaning folks to ‘cleanse’ the arts and others who constantly feel the need to defend from attacks that often times aren’t even there is causing us to lock down an excessive number of threads. This cannot be allowed to continue.

Effective immediately, ‘fraud busting’ outside of the realm of the “Bad Budo” forum will result in administrative actions against those involved when it disrupts the smooth operation of this forum. If you have concerns about someone’s rank/status it is to be handled via PM or email. You may post the results of that research in the “Bad Budo” forum if warranted. Educated martial artists will see the fraud for what he/she is and should just ignore them. This board was set up for friendly discussion of martial arts, not as a soapbox for people's personal crusades.

If you have questions, concerns, etc about someone or their 'qualifications', post it in the 'Bad Budo' forum and address it there -within our guidelines-. Interrogator type posts will not be tolerated any further. Post your questions, and give the others time to answer. The non-responsivness of an individual should be enough.

3: Lack of respect or tolerance for differing opinions.
Frankly, we are tired of the arguments about gender, race, nationality, etc. We are tired of those supposedly educated, experienced, trained martial artists, who tend to regress to school yard bully mentalities and tactics.

Effective immediately, we will begin removing those members who disrupt the smooth operation of this forum. If you cannot follow our rules, if you cannot leave your attitude at the door, we do not want you here.

There is a difference between a debate and an argument. We welcome debate, as long as it is within our posted guidelines. Take your argument and flames elsewhere.

The harassment of members, the hiding behind the “you’re not an XXX so you wouldn’t understand”, the “you master sucks”, etc. stuff will stop. Now. I don’t care if he thinks he’s a Sith-Lord and you ‘know’ he is nuts. It will cease, immediately.

4: Adult Content / profanity
Recently, many posts have skirted the line on ‘mature content’. Let me be very specific. If its of a sexual nature it is probably ‘too far’. If you can’t say it with out “cursing like a truck driver”, it is probably too far. If you have to reedit your post as its got lots of *** in it, its too far, and if you change all the *** stuff so that your words mostly show up, you will be booted. Circumventing the filters is a suspendable offense, and will be more strongly enforced in the future. We have at least a 5-10% membership under the age of 14.

5: The “General” forum is not the “everything goes here” forum.
If it does not involve martial arts, it goes in the locker room, unless it is a joke, in which case it goes in the humor forum. If you need help, post it in the support forum, not buried 50 posts deep in a thread wondering why we don't reply.

We are working to find ways to resolve the issues that have been brought to our attention. This will take time, and it will require the assistance of our members. 1500 members, 10 mods. There’s a lot more members than staff.

This forum and its features is here for your use and enjoyment. It is up to you on how you behave here. You can treat it as a prized resource, or a toilet. Those who do the latter will rapidly be removed.

My staff and I are your hosts. You are all our guests. We expect you to behave as such. We will remove at our discretion any and all those who we feel are not behaving by our rules. This will be done regardless of rank, title, previous contribution or political alignment. If you cannot follow our rules, the door is there. Don’t let it hit you in the ass on your way out. We will honor –ALL- “remove my account” requests immediately from this point on. No saves, no pauses. If you are suspended and ‘whine’, you will be banned. It is fair to ask ‘why’, but once told, take it like a grown up.

Before someone say this is singling out anyone in particular, it is not.

Any questions?

moromoro

05-26-2003, 06:16 AM

started getting intel from other forums, which I was already aware of, then after announcing that I was going on tour in Sweden, he started his attack. From there he continued to ask for my input, knowing I wouldn’t have much access to the net. Now I’m back and let the games begin!

i have no idea what you are talking about here, i started this thread as soon as i got out of suspension......

My promotion is none of his business.
sorry but once you begin teaching it is always the public (perspective students business)

This is not the first gutless wonder that has hidden behind the safety of a computer trying to start problems with me.

This thread has been nothing but a challenge to me, and now I ACCEPT! It’s time for you to Bring it, not sing it! I will be in Cebu and Manila in the last two weeks of July 2004.

well well, finally. got myself a challenge with a high ranking american FMA master, a lot easier than i could have imagined. I ACCEPT ALSO, , I ACCEPT SINCE IT WAS YOU WHO CHALLENGED ME. WHAT DATE WILL YOU BE IN CEBU? HERE THE THING IF I BEAT YOU IVE MADE IT BIGTIME, you would have lost everything. My entry to the US will be guaranteed and my name known. But i dont want that, i just want to prove my skills.

I am suppose to be going in january 2005/ december 2004 i will be staying in labangon, i will give you the address on this site or in a PM,

NO sparring equipment and bring money, because I don’t fight for free!

no sparring equiptment great, but who do you think you are i dont fight foe free, well iam telling you this time you will, this type of mentallity means you probably have had no fights at all...

thank you

terry

to the mods iam sorry about this, but i had to reply

Datu Tim Hartman

05-26-2003, 07:47 AM

GM Jornales will be setting up our trip when he gets back from Europe. When I have the information I'll post it on the net.

moromoro

05-26-2003, 09:40 AM

GM Jornales will be setting up our trip when he gets back from Europe. When I have the information I'll post it on the net

your first trip???

Datu Tim Hartman

05-26-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by moromoro
your first trip???

Does that make a difference?

Bob Hubbard

05-26-2003, 11:13 AM

Take the personal challenge to PM or Email.

Feel free to post an announcement once you have all the details privately worked out.

moromoro

05-26-2003, 10:38 PM

Feel free to post an announcement once you have all the details privately worked out.

yes thank you, i will post the details, when i have them work out, iam dead serious about his....

Does that make a difference?

see, this is what i mean, i asked a simple question and look at the answer......

also who are you going to be training with over there, only modern arnis??

balintawak also in cebu??? well you will have to change your dominering attitude, either that or you could expect more challenges while your there......

Datu Tim Hartman

05-26-2003, 11:24 PM

I've said all that I had to on the matter.

Matt Stone

05-27-2003, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by moromoro
sorry but once you begin teaching it is always the public (perspective students business)

So you are capable of making a valid point after all... Wow! :D

well well, finally. got myself a challenge with a high ranking american FMA master, a lot easier than i could have imagined.

So is that something you have been working toward? Seems so from your post... In which case, it becomes blatantly apparent that your entire commentary was nothing more than an attempt to bait and inflame Mr. Hartman to the point that he was willing to entertain your juvenile behavior with the appropriate education...

I ACCEPT ALSO, , I ACCEPT SINCE IT WAS YOU WHO CHALLENGED ME.

And you jump right back into the deep end from whence you originally came... And you showed so much promise with the quote above! Oh well, short lived success I guess...

My entry to the US will be guaranteed and my name known.

How do you figure? Do you think that your fighting an American will somehow speed your visa application? Not likely... Name known? Only in your own backyard... :rolleyes:

Looking forward to the results of this...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Tapps

05-27-2003, 02:27 PM

Wow ! This is the most fun I've had on Martial talk in a long time.

Sign me up for a tape. I'm 6'1" and 230 lbs and Hartman has put me on my A** more than once. And I'm his friend.

I can wait to see an all out pier sixer.

Master of Blades

05-27-2003, 02:59 PM

Hey! Maybe we could earn MT some money and have this on a live PPV webcam! :D

That would be great and MT would earn some money and we could all see just how good Moromoro is :D

whadda ya say? :rolleyes:

Bob Hubbard

05-27-2003, 03:32 PM

I dunno...I think the costs of a highspeed connection required for a net-PPV would exceed the possible revenue generated.

Might be cheeper to do it closer to a T1, rather than copper wire....

Dan Anderson

05-27-2003, 04:58 PM

Let's see if this really happens. There's lots of time between now and the upcoming event.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Guro Harold

05-27-2003, 06:19 PM

Maybe its just his communication style, Terry (MoroMoro) has just upset a Kalis Ilustrisimo instructor on Budoseek.

Bob Hubbard

05-27-2003, 06:36 PM

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743504127/qid=1054074934/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/002-4227402-9808817?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Something I often recomend to those who experience communications challenges.

:asian:

Bob Hubbard

05-27-2003, 06:39 PM

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671723650/qid=1054074934/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-4227402-9808817?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Or, the original paperback:

Cruentus

05-27-2003, 07:13 PM

I was going to write "LOL", but this is serious BIzznass. Terry really does need to do something different with his attitude.:shrug:

Tapps

05-28-2003, 08:16 AM

I dunno...I think the costs of a highspeed connection required for a net-PPV would exceed the possible revenue generated.

Spoken like a true computer geek !

;) :xwing:

Olisi

05-28-2003, 08:12 PM

Exciting times of challenges.

I haven’t visited the message boards in a while and look at what I missed?

This is really exciting. I have only heard of the stories of the older masters about if somene felt that they were better, or insisted that they were, or insulted, they proved it not by talking but by actions. This is probably why the real eskrimadors in the Philippines never say they are an expert, master or whatever because the first thing they hear is “Really, you are? Prove it.” It’s also why masters seldom promoted their students to that level because it is like a death sentence.

I am curious to find out how the masters there, specially in Cebu which has had a long history of battles with the Muslims, would react to and challenge involving a “datu” and a “moro”.

With regards to not fighting for free. Both of you are not fighting for free. I thought that you guys were fighting for honor – something no amount of money can buy. I’m sure whatever the door fee is people there will gladly contribute.

I’m sure that if anyone of you backs out (which I hope you wouldn’t as you would be known as duwag (coward)), you will find a wealth of eager challengers willing to step in – this specially in Cebu! So both of you won’t be disappointed!

When? Where? I already bought the blank videotape!

By the way, duelling is now illegal in public. But we can always find a venue like a military installation or the PNP Camp to sponsor it. Or we can always keep it underground and do it like when they used to at the beaches in Talisay or others.

Is this match stick, knife or blade?

Datu Tim Hartman

05-28-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Olisi

Is this match stick, knife or blade?

Stick.

thekuntawman

05-28-2003, 09:37 PM

okay to change the subject back to the original subject,

why do you think its important to have such high degrees in the philippine martial arts? do you agree that the road to expertise should be more important? or not?

my opinion is there should be a separate level for expert fighters, teachers and master teachers and thats it. the difference between a 5 th level master and a 6th are so unclear, i dont think they have a real purpose any more.

arnisador

05-28-2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
why do you think its important to have such high degrees in the philippine martial arts?

Personally, I don't think that. But it's the art the Professor gave us, and I don't have a problem with it either.

Rich Parsons

05-28-2003, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
okay to change the subject back to the original subject,

why do you think its important to have such high degrees in the philippine martial arts? do you agree that the road to expertise should be more important? or not?

my opinion is there should be a separate level for expert fighters, teachers and master teachers and thats it. the difference between a 5 th level master and a 6th are so unclear, i dont think they have a real purpose any more.

thekuntawman ,

As Arnisador, said, it is what the late GM R. Presas gave and left us.

Let me step outside of being a member of this art for Modern Arnis and discuss the abstractly.

First, if you wish to have a diferent ranking system in your art, or your system or organization, who is to tell you are wrong? It is yours right?

Next, if we look at the ranking system. There should be increase in knowledge and teaching ability, and understanding as time goes by. (* assuming someone is still training and or teaching. *) Thsi does set up a hierarchy of sorts, and would help in an organized system.

Is it bad to have limited ranks?

Gee, I study here and only get to be a fighter for 'x' time, yet over here I can see some improvement by the rank. Yes this is marketing, and would apply to those trying to make a living off of teaching. As long as the instructor(s) kept to the techniques and requirements the rank should not be an issue.

I could also see, someone saying yes he is an expert fighter, yet is my junior. Then does this make this other guys a Junior Export?

Sorry it is late, and I am ging to go to bed and discuss this more later :D

Dan Anderson

05-29-2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
okay to change the subject back to the original subject,

why do you think its important to have such high degrees in the philippine martial arts? do you agree that the road to expertise should be more important? or not?

my opinion is there should be a separate level for expert fighters, teachers and master teachers and thats it. the difference between a 5 th level master and a 6th are so unclear, i dont think they have a real purpose any more.

Hi Kuntawman,

Here's my answer to your question. Modern Arnis, as Prof. Presas presented it in the US, is a variation of a Philippine art. It is not purebred filipino martial art. It has been Americanized by RP himself. Personally, I think that began when he instituted belt rankings much like the Japanese dan rankings when he was back in the Philippines.

As to your stated opinion, in a filipino art I thinnk that is the way it's mostly done, isn't it? Therefore your opinion is quite logical. This set up is, however, what Remy Presas left us with.

Unfortunately, many times the difference between levels is a bit unclear. other times not. Thanks for getting this thread back on line.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Master of Blades

05-29-2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Olisi

Is this match stick, knife or blade?

Damn! There just trying to beat each other......Not KILL each other! :eek:

Tapps

05-29-2003, 08:51 AM

no sparring equiptment great, but who do you think you are i dont fight foe free, well iam telling you this time you will, this type of mentallity means you probably have had no fights at all...

Actually, I got to discuss this topic at some length with Professor Presas before he died.

He accepted challenges regularly in the Philippines.

When he got to America his policy was that he would only accept challenges from someone willing to put up $10,000.

His reasoning was that teaching Arnis was his livelihood, so there had to be something in it for him.

This policy kept the young clowns trying to make a reputation at his expense from shooting their mouths off.

I wonder how much Morromorro has in his checkbook.

moromoro

05-29-2003, 09:21 AM

Is this match stick, knife or blade?

garrote, rattan same weight for both,

this challenge will happen its only the time that is to be finalised..

GM Navarro and GM Epping Atillo are in discussion about having a full contact no armour stick fight tournament in labangon cebu all clubs are invited when this happens................
They want this tournament because they are sick of all the clubs (particularly in cebu) (well mainly in cebu) saying there the best and when you challenge them they back out or say they dont want to fight or they want money......

you see heres comes the sad part my goal in this forum has been for this since day one....

guess what renegade youll be facing me in the first round of this tournament......

I wonder how much Morromorro has in his checkbook its not a matter of how much money, your the guy who asked for the challenge remeber, you will get your invite and if you decline you lose face and be always know as a coward.....

thanks

terry

Datu Tim Hartman

05-29-2003, 09:42 AM

So what you're saying is that you need the saftey of a tournament to back up your words?

Bob Hubbard

05-29-2003, 10:15 AM

Actually Terry, I believe I remember you challenging a few individuals here previously, so you would be the one dropping the challenges.

Personally, having seen Tim move, and been on the recieving end of his stick on more than a few occations...I hope he beats the living crap outta you. You really need to learn some respect, boy.

arnisador

05-29-2003, 10:30 AM

Take all challenge discussions elsewhere.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Black Grass

05-29-2003, 11:58 AM

Master of Blades

05-29-2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by moromoro

you see heres comes the sad part my goal in this forum has been for this since day one....

thanks

terry

Hold up, the reason you joined this site was to challenge any decent American FMA'er to prove that they suck? :confused:

What was with all the pointless posts then....... :shrug:

Olisi

05-29-2003, 04:45 PM

If you guys still pursue this please keep me informed at larainyday@yahoo.com.

All the while I thought this was a challenge in the grudge match tradition - not a tournament!

Anyway, if you go offline please keep me informed on date, time and place. I don't want to miss watching this.

Kirk

05-29-2003, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Olisi
I don't want to miss watching this.

Me either!

Datu Tim Hartman

05-29-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by Olisi
All the while I thought this was a challenge in the grudge match tradition

That's what it's suppose to be.

Bob Hubbard

05-29-2003, 11:47 PM

Simply put, Tims life -is- Modern Arnis. His relationship with GM Presas was very close. To my knowledge, Terry holds no rank in Modern Arnis, has never trained in it, nor even been to America and met with or banged sticks with any US practitioners. I find it very interesting that a mid 20's kid is going to such lengths to provolk a fight with someone he has never seen move, who is has been actively training in Filipino martial arts for as long as he has been alive, under the personal guidence of the founder of the art (Who is a hero in the PI I believe).

My wonder is why if Tim was good enough for GM Presas to publically endorse on multiple occations, why some 20ish nobody is so concerned. Tim travels around the world spreading Modern Arnis in the same way GM Presas did...He's been all over North America, England, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and more. I should know...I have to keep updating his seminar list. Where have you promoted it Terry? Oh, I forgot, you want to make a name for yourself. Join the UFC or something.

Personally, given the fact that there's at least 40 people on this board alone who would love a chance to whack Terry 'upside' his head with a big heavy stick, I don't know if Tim should even lower himself to fighting this nobody. Hell, I'd go whack him if I thought he was worth traveling more than a mile for, and I'm only an orange belt. :)

Terry, I don't know what time frame or event you are thinking of. Tim indicated he will be in the PI the last two weeks of July 2004 and will face you then. Never said anything about whatever tourny you are involved in. So, I'd start planning on getting your wannabe ass there then.

This is -my- opinion, and in no way, shape or form reflects the official position of MartialTalk or its staff.

Sorry guys, had to say my mind. I'll take the lashes like everyone else. :asian:

-Bob Hubbard-

Dan Anderson

05-30-2003, 07:04 PM

1. What i have seen in Martial talk is almost a complete disrespect for the FMA and its varied history and teachers, people on this forum bite at you when you say go to the philippines and practice there....

2. for all you Modern Arnis practitioners i can guarantee that the level of modern arnis in the philippines is a whole lot better than in the U.S. NOW WHATS YOUR OPINION ON THIS!!!!!
originally posted by moromoro

Hi Guys,
The above was in "the question" thread started by The Kuntawman and how I missed reading it til today is beyond me and now the thread is closed. A couple of comments from moi.

1. Where exactly and what exactly has been stated as a cmplete disrespect for the FMA and its varied history and teachers? Exact quotes and sources, please. There have been many personal battles and the disrespect there has been rampant, but where's this widespread disrespect you are takling about?

2. I have only seen one person from Modern Arnis from the Philippines and that is Rodel Dagooc. Whether he is a whole lot better or not is up to the eye of the observer.

There is a difference between FMA straight from the Philippines and FMA which has been nurtured here in the states. No problem there. You are attacking one culture (that of the US) for not being like another culture (Filipino). This battle raged many years ago with karate in the US. As Americans proved themselves both in the tournament arena and in the schools, that battle died and is no longer waged. The same will happen with FMA. Historical precedent is there.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Rich Parsons

05-30-2003, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
originally posted by moromoro

Hi Guys,
The above was in "the question" thread started by The Kuntawman and how I missed reading it til today is beyond me and now the thread is closed. A couple of comments from moi.

1. Where exactly and what exactly has been stated as a cmplete disrespect for the FMA and its varied history and teachers? Exact quotes and sources, please. There have been many personal battles and the disrespect there has been rampant, but where's this widespread disrespect you are takling about?

2. I have only seen one person from Modern Arnis from the Philippines and that is Rodel Dagooc. Whether he is a whole lot better or not is up to the eye of the observer.

There is a difference between FMA straight from the Philippines and FMA which has been nurtured here in the states. No problem there. You are attacking one culture (that of the US) for not being like another culture (Filipino). This battle raged many years ago with karate in the US. As Americans proved themselves both in the tournament arena and in the schools, that battle died and is no longer waged. The same will happen with FMA. Historical precedent is there.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan,

Item Number 1, Terry, thinks what he sees on other sites and in magizines that is not 100% inline with his beliefs are the disrespect. So, since I cannot get a consistant history from any two different Filipino's I would have to assume that ..., (* Well I will not say it since that would be negative, and untrue, and unfounded. *)

Item Number 2, Terry has met a couple of good instructors and he wants the world to know it, and to learn from them. In the beginning I could respect that idea, of promoting some new or lessor known names. Yet, he took up the stance that all thsoe that had gone before are worthless. If you train out side of the PI your training is valueless. Personally I disagree with this, or I would not train.

Now this is what I have gathered from his posts and his e-mails. If I am wrong, fine. It would not be the first time. Yet, I can admit when I have made a mistake or the possibility of one and still walk with honor. Terry, in my opinion, believes that he cannot show any weakness, if he does, then he loses face and respect. A difference of cultures and views. Yet, most of us worthless and valueless FMA practitioners training here in the USA can deal with different opinions, even if we choose to agree to just disagree.

I would honestly like to hear what thekuntawman has to saw about this subject. Is training in the USA worth while? Does it have value? Or can you only get the proper FMA training in the PI?

Yes, Dan, with the Japanese and Korean Arts, the subject has been discussed and dealt with in the recent history of the second half of the 20th century. What was found out that it was not the location or the art studied, but the dedication of the person.

:asian:

Pappy Geo

05-30-2003, 10:20 PM

Wow,

Been gone on vacation for 10 days and I find this rampant thread when I get back. I hate jumping in here as it really isn't any of my business, but I find this kid offensive and an instigator. Apparently he is just looking for attention and is getting it.

It doesn't matter if Datu Tim is a 6th or 7th degree, he is a Datu, which is outside the belt rankings and is considered rank of the best.

Does this kid share his art? Travel extensively around the world teaching at seminars, camps, does he have his own organization of students? Has he studied the art for 20 years? What gives him the right to challenge not just Datu Tim but any of us. I bet his instructors, if they knew what he was up to would be embarrassed and get rid of him, I know Datu Worden would immediately. Datu Tim you have no need to prove anything to this kid, he is so junior he is not worthy of your time. In fact you will only give him bragging rights to say he has challenged a American Datu. He is totally anti-American and an apparent racist.

This kid is what we call out here in the Northwest a piss-ant and is not worthy of responding to his disrespectful remarks.

He has baited with this thread and has hooked the attention he is looking for. I would just consider him a perverted piss-ant and ignore him, even delete him off this thread and ban him from this forum as he never has contributed anything constructive only destructive controversy. He has nothing to offer.

Perspective from a Grandfather,

bloodwood

05-30-2003, 10:34 PM

So is a full contact tournament without equipment over in the PI what this has been all about from the beginning? Is moromoro acting alone or is he being prompted by someone else in the PI? That is a pretty sad state of affairs. Instead of sharing information and learning from each other we have come to this. Actually those in the PI were the ones who missed out on learning from one of the best to ever pick up a stick. Location doesn't matter, it's who was doing the teaching, and for us here in the USA, it was Professor Remy Presas, for the last 20 years or better. He was the best of the best and he chose to do it here.

Guro Harold

05-30-2003, 11:53 PM

I think the tournament idea and having Tim pay for the privilege to fight Terry is very hypocritical.

Question 1: Who was concerned about commericialism in the first place?

Question 2, will there be any money generated from the tournament? Isn't that commercialism.

Question 3: Who is concerned about fighting for money?

This sounds like a McTourney to me! Bag it!!

Bob Hubbard

05-31-2003, 01:16 AM

Ya know...I was thinking....didn't the 'young bucks' have to goto the 'masters' to challenge em? I think thats how it used to be done...

I know we got an indian reservation just 20 min away from us here that would be happy to let some folks use an acre....

Why should Tim spend his coin to travel around the world to meet every wannabe stick jockey? Hey Terry, why dont you come n get it?

Matter of fact Terry...why don't you stay and enjoy Dr. Barbers Modern Arnis Symposium... do it THIS July.

I even went and looked up flight information for you:

11:25 AM Depart Melbourne (MEL)
Arrive Buffalo (BUF) 10:39 AM +1 day Thu 10-Jul
37hr 14mn United Airlines 816 / 98 / 2273
Connect in Los Angeles (LAX), Philadelphia (PHL)
Total stops: 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2:55 PM Depart Buffalo (BUF)
Arrive Melbourne (MEL) 9:40 AM +2 days Sun 13-Jul
28hr 45mn United Airlines 2324 / 99 / 815
Connect in Philadelphia (PHL), Los Angeles (LAX)
Total stops: 3

A McTourny....can we "SuperSize" the ego here? :rofl:

I agree with Pappy...he's not worthy to face someone at Tims level...or ours. :)

-Bob Hubbard-

This is -my- opinion, and in no way, shape or form reflects the official position of MartialTalk or its staff.

Dan Anderson

05-31-2003, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Matter of fact Terry...why don't you stay and enjoy Dr. Barbers Modern Arnis Symposium... do it THIS July.

Terry at the Sympo? That would be interesting. Terry, you've been quiet the last day or so. What's up? Plus, you haven't answered my private email. Did you receive it? If not, please send me your email address so I can go through HotMail and get it to you.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Master of Blades

05-31-2003, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Why should Tim spend his coin to travel around the world to meet every wannabe stick jockey? Hey Terry, why dont you come n get it?

I got a better idea! Why dont you all come to London, England so I can see it! :D

thekuntawman

05-31-2003, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

I would honestly like to hear what thekuntawman has to saw about this subject. Is training in the USA worth while? Does it have value? Or can you only get the proper FMA training in the PI?

:asian:

of course i believe training in the US has value. i just dont like the lack of competititon in the FMA community, and the way it is so easy to get a "certification"/black belt/instructor's certificate/etc.

i talk about how its done in the PI so much, because i see a benefit in how things are done back home over how things are done here. even though people are learning to clack sticks ("bang sticks" as everyone likes to say it) and perform techniques, just as well as filipinos, as a matter of fact, better--what FMA students in the west are missing is the "fighter element", or "tough guy mentality". whether you like it or not, the tough-guy attitude is what most of your filipino masters had, and if it wasnt for that, you would not have the fighting style you have today. the old men, looked down on each other, they compared themself to one another, they looked at the other guy and said "his technique wont work on me..." people were competitive to each other, and this is why, only the fighters carried on the styles, and the passive people did not get noticed.

instead, here, in my opinion, people are afraid of confrontation and instead of facing it, they get mad or avoid it and hide behind organizations and ridicule of the one who is confrontational. like moromoro's challenge. to you guys he seems ridiculous. but to a real philippine martial arts community, the people would be waiting to see the outcome, then others would want to challenge the winner. not to "shut him up", but to see if you can beat him to.

how many times did you hear a filipino master say, i cant speak for his fighting ability , but i like/dislike him, or people i know say he can/cannot fight. here in the west, people do not worry about losing face by speaking for a person, even if he is a friend, who turned out he aint that good. in the philippines, fighting ability is respected, no matter if you think the guy is an asshold or not. here, your rank and who you study with or what you have done speaks for you. arrogance or cockiness is a sign of either a fool, or a man who can back his words, and the members of that community will not waste time to find out which one he is.

this is why many filipinos cannot understand the rank issue. to us, what difference does your degree make, i think i can beat you. in the west, they want to see progression, or to add to a resume for what he has achieved.

filipinos are simple people, and your own martial arts ability is judged by your fighting ability. we will respect almost any fight, because they always will have rules (among martial artists), so there is no excuse not to fight. in the west they have excuses (excuse me, "reasons") why the fighting is not "real enough", which to many of us is a sign of weakness. filipinos know that we too have jobs on monday, but i dont consider that i might get a broken arm (which almost never happens). we know the tournament is not a streetfight, but a weak man still cant do it, and its the closest safetest way we have to test ourself against another fighter. ranks dont bet us hard, we only care for the bragging rights to say i beat that guy. we are also not afraid of a loss or an injury. our skin is thick, so words might get a reaction but we welcome a good argument, surely some of you have seen this by now.

so my criticism of western FMA is not an insult, only a wish to see it become more like our own.

by the way my friend dexter labonog will be promoting a eskrima tournament as part of the lee-jet don kung fu tournament this month in sacramento. i was suppose to help him but i had an emergency to take me out of town (i am not in sacramento). i would like to invite everyone who has fighters to bring them, and he told me he need referees and judges. you can find his site at (i think) www.bahalana.com

Rich Parsons

05-31-2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Wow,

Been gone on vacation for 10 days and I find this rampant thread when I get back. I hate jumping in here as it really isn't any of my business, but I find this kid offensive and an instigator. Apparently he is just looking for attention and is getting it.

It doesn't matter if Datu Tim is a 6th or 7th degree, he is a Datu, which is outside the belt rankings and is considered rank of the best.

Does this kid share his art? Travel extensively around the world teaching at seminars, camps, does he have his own organization of students? Has he studied the art for 20 years? What gives him the right to challenge not just Datu Tim but any of us. I bet his instructors, if they knew what he was up to would be embarrassed and get rid of him, I know Datu Worden would immediately. Datu Tim you have no need to prove anything to this kid, he is so junior he is not worthy of your time. In fact you will only give him bragging rights to say he has challenged a American Datu. He is totally anti-American and an apparent racist.

This kid is what we call out here in the Northwest a piss-ant and is not worthy of responding to his disrespectful remarks.

He has baited with this thread and has hooked the attention he is looking for. I would just consider him a perverted piss-ant and ignore him, even delete him off this thread and ban him from this forum as he never has contributed anything constructive only destructive controversy. He has nothing to offer.

Perspective from a Grandfather,

Grandpappy Geo,

I like what you have said here. Thank you for your opinion.

Tim, should not have to go out of his way to prove anything. If Terry shows up where Datu Tim Hartman is at and then they proceed, then that is lfe.

:asian:

Rich Parsons

05-31-2003, 12:32 PM

thekuntawman,

Thank you for your reply.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
of course i believe training in the US has value. i just don’t like the lack of competition in the FMA community, and the way it is so easy to get a "certification"/black belt/instructor's certificate/etc.

I can respect this. As stated before you have a problem with the ranking system. I study two FMA's, one has rank the other does not. In each system I respect the way it was taught to me. I do not try to change it, nor do I critique the one over the other. Yet, this is me and I understand that others approach things differently.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i talk about how its done in the PI so much, because i see a benefit in how things are done back home over how things are done here. even though people are learning to clack sticks ("bang sticks" as everyone likes to say it) and perform techniques, just as well as Filipinos, as a matter of fact, better--what FMA students in the west are missing is the "fighter element", or "tough guy mentality". whether you like it or not, the tough-guy attitude is what most of your Filipino masters had, and if it wasn’t for that, you would not have the fighting style you have today. the old men, looked down on each other, they compared themselves to one another, they looked at the other guy and said "his technique wont work on me..." people were competitive to each other, and this is why, only the fighters carried on the styles, and the passive people did not get noticed.

In The PI, well the impression I used to have was that it was the old west, and every one ran around with a cane on the shoulder and a Machete on their belt, and duels happened every five minutes, with people knocked out and dead all the time. Yet, when I have talked to GM Remy Presas and Manong (GM) Ted Buot, they both have commented that contacted occurred, yet it was not something that happened just because. GM RP told me that he had to have the influence of local or regional people to avoid being tracked down and or ganged up on if he beat a local champion. I have also been told by Manong Buot that people went to jail for the fighting and for the accidental or intentional death's of people that jumped them, or they fought. So, when I hear about how tough it was in the PI, and yet, two respected top level Martial Artist, tell me that it was not a common place. Yes people would meet and or have a dispute, yet it was not every day.

As to the attitude, I can understand that being able to back up your knowledge is a good thing. I have never had a problem doing this. What I have problems with are the people that put on soooooooo much armor that hey feel nothing of the impacts. Believe me the well placed impact would slow most people down and stop the wild barrage or attacks with little technique. Or those that make rules of no disarms and no kicks or sweeps, or grappling or only shots to the body and the back is not a target. This turns it into an upper body targeting contest, and believe me when people get frustrated they close to stop the beating. If you can then take them down and or take them out it settles it.

Yet, the attitude is fine in certain degrees and in certain places. I respect your desire to add this I the USA FMA culture.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
instead, here, in my opinion, people are afraid of confrontation and instead of facing it, they get mad or avoid it and hide behind organizations and ridicule of the one who is confrontational. like moromoro's challenge. to you guys he seems ridiculous. but to a real Philippine martial arts community, the people would be waiting to see the outcome, then others would want to challenge the winner. not to "shut him up", but to see if you can beat him to.

Yes, there will always be people unwilling to put up or shut up. I am waiting to see the outcome, I just hope Terry does not back out and insist upon the tournament and his system's rules. Why not let them just settle it? To me it sounds like Terry the one attacking, is externalizing his own problems onto others. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
how many times did you hear a Filipino master say, i cant speak for his fighting ability , but i like/dislike him, or people i know say he can/cannot fight. here in the west, people do not worry about losing face by speaking for a person, even if he is a friend, who turned out he ain’t that good. in the Philippines, fighting ability is respected, no matter if you think the guy is an asshold or not. here, your rank and who you study with or what you have done speaks for you. arrogance or cockiness is a sign of either a fool, or a man who can back his words, and the members of that community will not waste time to find out which one he is.

I have not had the privilege to travel within the Filipino Community to hear many masters say anything.

I remember many a time, my local instructors and my fellow students and training partners where asked to leave a GM R Presas event. OH, GM R Presas would come and see us, and train us, and we could go else where, but not always be welcome at other clubs, because of our attitudes and or confidence to show it works to the unbelievers.

Now in any culture in any art there will be frauds. There will be people who do not back themselves up. I take exception to the broad statements that have been made that imply or state that all USA FMA practitioners are weak and or unable to defend themselves. This is my major problem with this topic. If anyone has specifics list them, or say in my experience, do not say things like ALL FMA IN THE USA . . . . And Yes, I say this because I believe I can back up what I know.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
this is why many Filipinos cannot understand the rank issue. to us, what difference does your degree make, i think i can beat you. in the west, they want to see progression, or to add to a resume for what he has achieved.

Yes Many Filipino's cannot understand the rank issue. Yet I have read and been told, that many of the Filipino's Masters also went out and learned a Japanese or Korean Art to gain rank and the title of Master to open their school as a license Master in the PI. You, see this an example of it happening also in the PI by the Filipino's. So, yes some cannot understand, yet from the 1950's to present, I believe this is what happened. So, if people were to comment on this, such as Terry's post about his instructors about being upset with the Cebu Clubs. Unfortunately Terry left it blank as to why, it would have been nice to know the issue. Or is that they are jealous of their success and reputation? and want a piece of the pie for themselves? I do not know.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
Filipinos are simple people, and your own martial arts ability is judged by your fighting ability. we will respect almost any fight, because they always will have rules (among martial artists), so there is no excuse not to fight. in the west they have excuses (excuse me, "reasons") why the fighting is not "real enough", which to many of us is a sign of weakness. Filipinos know that we too have jobs on Monday, but i don’t consider that i might get a broken arm (which almost never happens). we know the tournament is not a streetfight, but a weak man still cant do it, and its the closest safest way we have to test ourself against another fighter. ranks don’t bet us hard, we only care for the bragging rights to say i beat that guy. we are also not afraid of a loss or an injury. our skin is thick, so words might get a reaction but we welcome a good argument, surely some of you have seen this by now.

A simple fight, such as once the guys goes down do not follow, yet you are able to put them there. Or, once blood is drawn or bones broken then is halt is called to access the damage and if the fight can continue. I respect this. Yet, see above for my concerns.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
so my criticism of western FMA is not an insult, only a wish to see it become more like our own.
. . .
I have no issues with this wish and even respect it. We may just differ on our approaches :D
:asian:

Mao

05-31-2003, 01:07 PM

We live in a pretty litigeous society, so, it would not be too prudent to just call out and throttle anyone who you think your better than or just have an ax to grind with. Our U.S. prisons are full of people who have done just that. As for the U.S. being more like the PI, I, for one, happen to like the U.S. method. How many other peoples have taken up Western boxing? That is not to say that we, or any other culture for that matter, couldn't use some tweeking her and there, now and then. I don't think that we should "become" more like someone else. We are distinctly AMERICAN. I am proud of that and many other cultures migrate here for a reason. Nuff ranting.
:asian:
Mao

bloodwood

05-31-2003, 05:21 PM

Very nicely stated. :asian:

thekuntawman

05-31-2003, 09:14 PM

let me re-phrase.

i would like to american FMA-artists, practice more the philosophy and culture of the art, instead of just techniques. only a few people know it, but your technique means very little in application without the philosophy and mental attitude they are designed to be with. if only technique alone was needed, we could all learn from books and video without the teachers.

one example is level of aggression. many of the techniques in the arts, like passing a stick after you stop it, requires a certain type of confidence and a lack of fear of getting hit. your agression level is required to be able to have these things. where someone who thinks only of the movement, for example passing a stick in a drill, will not be able to apply the pass against a full power hit. just by learning the movement alone, and saying you cant get hit because you have to go to work on monday, you will not learn to apply this technique.

another is loyalty to training. many people believe they can pick and choose from this art and that art, to make there own. but many of the things in the arts you learn cannot be applied unless you learn the other parts. an impatient person will not be able to know what he needs to know and have, and he will rely on his limited amount of knowledge in that system to decide what he needed or what he can throw away. the result? a teacher of system X, who also teaches system Y and Z, but he have only a beginner's knowledge of y and z. so who loses out? the instructor, who doesnt know as much as he thinks, the student who either puts his faith in incomplete knowledge or decides he doesnt like something that might turn out to be good.

one ecample of this, when was the last time you saw somebody who takes 6 months or longer to teach abaniko technique? most people, the abaniko is no more than 6 or 8 hits, and then some drills. to many older masters, they can teach you for 6 months to fight only with the abaniko technique (or style of fighting).

thekuntawman

05-31-2003, 09:51 PM

sorry i had to go, what i was trying to say in my last example, is that in loyalty to training, you should be dedicated to learning at least the foundation of the art, and let the TEACHER decide when that is, before you can really absorb it into your own knowledge. you can learn maybe even 10 styles, but you will need at least a year of training to get the foundation, or more, if thats is what the teacher requires.

to many people they believe the "instant learning" refers to only two or three lessons. i consider if somebody leaves before the teacher says you have learned his foundation, wants "instant learning", and that can be up to a year. i have lost a lot of students who say my art is "not what they wanted" and said to a friend (who is another teacher), he wasnt teaching me much. in my area, i have a few friends who teach the FMA, and years ago, i would see the same students come through my doors for a few months, and then theirs. because of no commitment, they havent learned nothing from any of us. now i, like my brother, do not accept students who school hop any more.

i forgot the point i wanted to make, so i will post again.

moromoro

05-31-2003, 10:36 PM

hi

I think the tournament idea and having Tim pay for the privilege to fight Terry is very hypocritical.
Question 1: Who was concerned about commericialism in the first place?
Question 2, will there be any money generated from the tournament? Isn't that commercialism.

no money will be made from this tournament it will be an invitational you dont have to pay any money nor will the tournament give you money, this is going back to the old school.

Question 3: Who is concerned about fighting for money?
i suggest you ask tim, he has said he does not fight for free, this is just another excuse to hide.

It doesn't matter if Datu Tim is a 6th or 7th degree, he is a Datu, which is outside the belt rankings and is considered rank of the best.

you U.S folk dont seem to get it, try using that term DATU in the philippines it means notthing to us.... it has no place in the FMA... that type of rank has no place in the FMA...

Actually those in the PI were the ones who missed out on learning from one of the best to ever pick up a stick. Location doesn't matter, it's who was doing the teaching, and for us here in the USA, it was Professor Remy Presas, for the last 20 years or better. He was the best of the best and he chose to do it here.

first of all i respect the prof (RIP) a good friend of mine learnt from him in college in the 70's......... this is not my opinion but in cebu modern arnis is not tought of highly......

. I am waiting to see the outcome, I just hope Terry does not back out and insist upon the tournament and his system's rules. Why not let them just settle it? To me it sounds like Terry the one attacking, is externalizing his own problems onto others. Just my opinion. you dont seem to undestand the reason for this tournament, many arts there in cebu have been claiming to be the best this is a test to put up or shut up.. also there will be certain rules (notthing to major) (just to make sure folks like tim dont result to biting or eye gauging) it will have to be oked by the local authorities as well.....

hi dan, ive been very busy lately i did not recieve your private email, could you try sending it again...

thanks

terry

Datu Tim Hartman

05-31-2003, 11:21 PM

Are they going to where helmets in the tournament? The reason I ask is that I saw on a site from the PI sparring with no body armor but they still wore helmets.

Pappy Geo

05-31-2003, 11:26 PM

you U.S folk dont seem to get it, try using that term DATU in the philippines it means notthing to us.... it has no place in the FMA... that type of rank has no place in the FMA...

That is contary to what the Fillipinos I know think, like Roland Dantes(movie star, Director for the (Phillipino) national Arnis org and director on the Phillipino Olympic committe) , Rodel Dagooc, the Presas family, Datu Shishir Inocalla. You are definately are outside the Arnis mainstream. I am not going to debate you as you are disrepectful kid and about to get spanked by your seniors in the art if you actualy do show and cause trouble.

Granpappy Geo

thekuntawman

06-01-2003, 12:32 AM

datu is not a term used in the martial arts in the philippines. remy presas, i think is the only one who gives those titles. i know that leo gaje gives the titles "tuhan", but that is also not a filipino martial arts title except for in there own styles.

actually most filipino teachers do not use a title for themself, except maybe a family title, and the ones who do will use english word, like master or grandmaster (great granmaster, supreme great grandmaster....filipino mcdojo .:D )

and of course people wear helmets. it would be stupid to do head hitting without it. but, many people do sparring without it, but people respect each other to not try and crack somebody's skull. much of the helmet wearers do not use the jackets, and allow hitting to the thighs. and believe me, you DO have to be tough to spar that way.

moromoro

06-01-2003, 06:36 AM

That is contary to what the Fillipinos I know think, like Roland Dantes(movie star, Director for the (Phillipino) national Arnis org and director on the Phillipino Olympic committe) , Rodel Dagooc, the Presas family, Datu Shishir Inocalla

mmm, something ridiculous about your statement GEO, all these guys are modern arnis practitioners,

please read and learn from the kuntawmans post as this is the truth about such titiles.....

please know what you are talking about before you post you only make yourself look stupid. (GEO)

Are they going to where helmets in the tournament? The reason I ask is that I saw on a site from the PI sparring with no body armor but they still wore helmets.

gm epping attilo wanted it with no helmets, even Gm Navarro still does not know what the deal will be, everything will try to be finalised by december this year.

thanks

terry

Datu Tim Hartman

06-01-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
much of the helmet wearers do not use the jackets, and allow hitting to the thighs. and believe me, you DO have to be tough to spar that way.

Been there, done that.

Dan Anderson

06-01-2003, 02:14 PM

Kuntawman -
Excellent posts stating your point of view. Very well stated, both of them.

Terry,
Email me at dannyleeanderson@hotmail.com and then I'll have your address and then we can converse more off the forum.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

moromoro

06-02-2003, 07:24 AM

Dan

i will send you an email tonight or tommorrow i been very busy lately......

thanks

terry

Black Grass

06-02-2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by moromoro

you U.S folk dont seem to get it, try using that term DATU in the philippines it means notthing to us.... it has no place in the FMA... that type of rank has no place in the FMA...

first of all i respect the prof (RIP) a good friend of mine learnt from him in college in the 70's......... this is not my opinion but in cebu modern arnis is not tought of highly......

Terry,

If you respected the Prof. then you should respect his ranking system. He was the one that came up with the whole Datu thing. I'm not saying you have to agree with it and you can even think its silly. But when it comes down to it what does it matter if Modern Arnis uses the term datu.

If the 6 datu's in modern arnis went around and insisted they be called that well thats another issue. My uncle in a true datu in the Bukidnon tribe and no one calls him that.

To Tim Hartman's credit when I first met him back in 95 he introduce himself simply as Tim not Guro Tim or Master Tim. He was already at this point high level BB in modern arnis (5th dan I think). I highly doubt when he goes to the Philippinrs he is going to ask everyone to address him as Datu.

As for Modern Arnis not being well respected in Cebu I would agree. But then in the FMA in general in the Phillipines most style do not respect each other.

Vince
aka Black Grass

Datu Tim Hartman

06-02-2003, 03:17 PM

Well said. :asian:

DoctorB

06-03-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by arnisador
This is a no-win situation. To find someone higher than 6th degree in Modern Arnis one pretty much has to go to the Phil. But back there the form of Modern Arnis they're doing is at the least a different 'dialect' and nearly qualifies as a different art--the Prof. changed it so much here in the U.S. So, looking within the art is tough--esp. when you consider that Mr. Hartman is one of the datus of the art, which was supposed to be a sign of leadership within the art that was in some sense 'beyond' rank.

Dr. Gyi was close to the Prof. and was explicitly asked by the Prof. to help the Prof.'s students. Mr. Jornales is a Modern Arnis datu and a FMA grandmaster. Their endorsement seems relevant to me.

But the promotion is from the board. This is the Kenpo model, which again seems rather relevant to me--several Kenpoka were promoted in this manner in the wake of the problems that beset Kenpo after the passing of Ed Parker. Mr. Hartman had been close to the Kenpo community for years. He sought the counsel of Huk Planas in particular.

There was no winning on this one. There was no ideal way to proceed.

I have read through ALL 10 pages of this thread. Some good points were raised and there was a lot of cross-talking as well.

You are correct Arnisador:

"This is a no-win situation. To find someone higher than 6th degree in Modern Arnis one pretty much has to go to the Phil. But back there the form of Modern Arnis they're doing is at the least a different 'dialect' and nearly qualifies as a different art..."

This is a potential "no wiln" situation. Dr. Gyi is not a FMA player, but my response to that is SO WHAT? Does that mean that he is unable to recognize a good martial artists when he sees one? I think not. The objector drops any mention of GM Ric Jornales once his name is brought forward - that is not a fair or legitimate thing to do given the questions raised.

Part of this problem is the result of a failure on the part of the Advisory Board to include the names of the two GMs right from the begining when the announcement was first made. Both of these men have known Tim Hartman for some time, with GM Jornales' contact going back to at least 1988, that I am aware of. Therefore it is possible for him to have an appriciation for Tim Hartman's development over an extended period of time.

There are clearly differences between what is practiced in the Philippines and the USA/Canada and Europe in terms of Modern Arnis. However that does not mean that someone trained in one region is unable to recognize what someone is doing who trained in another region. Dieter Knuttel went to the Philippines and was promoted by the 8th degree people there. Obviously they saw things that they deemed appropriate to raise his ranking to 7th degree.

My solution to this promotional problem for at least the short term is to develop promotional boards made up of Senior Masters, Datus, MoTTs and System Chief Instructors, for the express purpose of promoting people who are qualifed. That is what I am working on for the Modern Arnis Symposium in Buffalo this coming July. Most of the Senior people attending are in favor of doing that and I will be making the final announcement on the plan next week.

Such a board will preclude any need for students to get involved in the promotion of their individual instructors. Appearence and substance are of equal importance when promotions are being considered and made.

Skill is the best indicator of rank, however it would be entirely ridiculous to believe that all promotions in Modern Arnis under the late professor Presas were only and always skill based. That is part of the reason that I first proposed to host the Symposium. There was a lot of talking, sniping and broad claims being made. The Symposium is one way to find out who in fact has the skills to back up the claims of rank and title.

I am satisfied that the people who will be instructing at the Symposium are AMONG the best in the Modern Arnis. NOT ALL of the BEST instructors are on the current program - that is the
way it is and so be it. I encourage everyone who can to attend the Symposium and be an active participant. Then it will be possible to speak from a position of strength based on first hand knowledge.

No one is in a position of knowing all of the senior people in Modern Arnis. The Symposium gives us a chance to meet and train with a few of these people in a single setting.

If anyone would like more information, just write me at:
escrima_kenpo@hotmail.com

It will be interesting to me to see how many people take a pro-active position and how many just continue to snipe. How many instructors will attend and encourage their students to do the same thing? The Symposium is a learning opportunity, but some people will choose to avoid attending because what they might see and experience could be diffenent from their expectations and biases.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

bloodwood

06-03-2003, 08:52 PM

Promotions in Modern Arnis were given to members of the IMAF. They were given these promotions, for what ever reason, to show their advancement in the Organization, not arnis in general. As in all other martial arts, promotion are done within the different organizations not in general, say for all the Kenpo groups to recognize all kempo promotions.

So what you are saying is that you and presenters at the symposium will set the standards for rank promotions in Modern Arnis, without the need for being associated with any organization. What will the certificates say at the top? Who will recognize these promotions? Datu Hartman was promoted within his organization and Dieter was promoted by high ranking old timers in the PI. If they were to test under the guidelines you are stating they still woud be getting promoted by those of lesser rank. So it would be no different than Datu Hartman's promotion except it would be done by the no name promotion board and not an organizational thing.

Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.
Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group.
Not just grab the promotion and run.

And just so you know, I am NOT dissing the symposium. This is not about the symposium. My comments are only on the way of doing these promotions. I think the symposium is a great idea and I hope it goes well.

bloodwood

Dan Anderson

06-03-2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by bloodwood
1. Promotions in Modern Arnis were given to members of the IMAF. They were given these promotions, for what ever reason, to show their advancement in the Organization, not arnis in general. As in all other martial arts, promotion are done within the different organizations not in general, say for all the Kenpo groups to recognize all kempo promotions.

2. So what you are saying is that you and presenters at the symposium will set the standards for rank promotions in Modern Arnis, without the need for being associated with any organization.

3. What will the certificates say at the top?

4. Who will recognize these promotions?

5. Datu Hartman was promoted within his organization and Dieter was promoted by high ranking old timers in the PI. If they were to test under the guidelines you are stating they still woud be getting promoted by those of lesser rank. So it would be no different than Datu Hartman's promotion except it would be done by the no name promotion board and not an organizational thing.

6. Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.

7. Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group. Not just grab the promotion and run.

8. And just so you know, I am NOT dissing the symposium. This is not about the symposium. My comments are only on the way of doing these promotions. I think the symposium is a great idea and I hope it goes well.

bloodwood

Blood,
Hi. An answer to your post:

1. In IMAF, I suppose. There were a number of us who weren't promoted in IMAF. My certificate says "Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines." As to others recognizing others, that is up to them.

2. No so much like that but there are a number of individuals who don't belong to any of the associations and don't feel the need to be. They are frozen in rank while they become better at the art.

3. Don't know. I'm curious about that myself. I hope he spells my name right.

4. It's no so much a matter who recognizes them but who will dis them?

5. Promoted by those of lesser rank? That's a matter of opinion. Dieter, Tim and I all were promoted to the same rank (6th Degree Black) by the GM himself, Remy Presas. All promotions since then were done by those of lesser rank. In Modern Arnis, all were junior to Remy Presas.

No name promotion board? I am a no name? I'll grant that I am not a board but a no name I am not!
:soapbox:

6. Thanks for your opinion and stating it as such.

7. Yes, for the skill but one needs to recognize that there are those who want to be alone and not in a group as well. And who is suggesting that one should grab and run with it?

8. If no one else does, I duplicate your viewpoint and thanks for the plug for the Symposium.

Yours,
( )

PS - I had a name once. Can somebody find it for me? ;)

Bob Hubbard

06-03-2003, 09:42 PM

Heres another question. Who will reconize the promotion?

To some, grading 'stopped' with Remys death. To others, they are working with the established organizations on promotion. Still the question remains...who will make the determination?

Since the organizations usually set the curiculum, if you aren't familiar with it, how can you test it?

Will either IMAF reconize a promotion done by the WMAA? Will MARPPIO reconize an IMAF promotion? If its done by an independent board, why should they?

Having trained with many kenpoists, I see problems. School a does a technique one way, school b has made its own 'tweaks' and school c uses a newer reference guide. So, who determines which is right? I've seen a few of the seniors move. They dont move the same. Sometimes, they conflict each other when 'correcting' students. Why? Because they each see things differently.

Unless this idea is done carefully, it runs the risk of being clasified as nothing more than a 'certificate mill'. (See the Bad Budo forum for definitions).

Another question is, how many levels will folks jump? A few people haven't been promoted in a heck of a long time. We all jump on Ms. McManus for getting her 3rd a few weeks after she got her 2nd. So, we gonna jump a few folks from 3rd to 8th? Why? If you're gonna do that, what meaning does any of the rank have? I think we have enough paper black belts in the arts as it is.

My opinion is, I agree with bloodwood.

Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.
Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group.
Not just grab the promotion and run.

And just so you know, I am NOT dissing the symposium. This is not about the symposium. My comments are only on the way of doing these promotions. I think the symposium is a great idea and I hope it goes well.

:asian:

Brian Johns

06-03-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by bloodwood

So what you are saying is that you and presenters at the symposium will set the standards for rank promotions in Modern Arnis, without the need for being associated with any organization. What will the certificates say at the top? Who will recognize these promotions? Datu Hartman was promoted within his organization and Dieter was promoted by high ranking old timers in the PI. If they were to test under the guidelines you are stating they still woud be getting promoted by those of lesser rank. So it would be no different than Datu Hartman's promotion except it would be done by the no name promotion board and not an organizational thing.

Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.
Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group.
Not just grab the promotion and run.

bloodwood [/B]

Based on how I read Dr. Barber's post, I would have to completely agree with bloodwood's analysis. Perhaps Dr. Barber can clarify what he is proposing. But I read it the same way that bloodwood did. If the standards for promotion are going to be set by this board without regard to association one of the organizations, I think that this proposal is doomed to failure and will be disregarded. I think that most organizations are going to want to handle their promotions on their own. I would think that this is an area that most organizations are going to agree to disagree.

I am in 100% agree with the next to last paragraph of bloodwood's post with regard to getting involved with an organization and supporting it and promoting the aims of that organization. As said so eloquently by bloodwood "promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group."

Perhaps we can get clarification from Dr. Barber on this proposal ??

These are my views and not the views of the IMAF, Inc.

Take care,
Brian Johns

Bob Hubbard

06-03-2003, 09:45 PM

MT is like Cheers...we all know your name, NORM!!!! :D

arnisador

06-03-2003, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
there are a number of individuals who don't belong to any of the associations and don't feel the need to be. They are frozen in rank while they become better at the art.

Is that clear? I'm not sure that it is--maybe someone out there is willing to promote those who are not members of his organization.

Frankly, the Professor retained authority for black belt promotions nearly to himself--one could argue that most of us are assuming any promotion authority we may think we have.

In Modern Arnis, all were junior to Remy Presas.

And much of the authority remained with him. If one believes that only the IMAF's MOTTs have authority in his passing, the Philippines Modern Arnis folks are over-reaching their authority, for example. It's a mess. I honestly believe the Prof. would want us to do the best we could.

I believe he trusted and respected my judgment and my goodwill, based on things he said to me--I feel I would be in his good graces in moving forward as best I could and, as he always wanted us to do, in sharing the art.

I have no doubt that everyone else would say the same, and be just as correct!

Brian Johns

06-03-2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Since the organizations usually set the curiculum, if you aren't familiar with it, how can you test it?

Will either IMAF reconize a promotion done by the WMAA? Will MARPPIO reconize an IMAF promotion? If its done by an independent board, why should they?

[/B]

Kaith has identified the central problem with the idea of a promotions board.

For example, does this mean that this promotion board will travel to the Seattle area to test, grade and promote Datu Kelly Worden's students ? Somehow, I just don't think that'll work. Remember, the different organizations represent different flavors of Modern Arnis from different time periods. So what standards are going to apply to organizations that practice the 1980's version of Modern Arnis as opposed to the 1990's version of Modern Arnis ? I have a very hard time seeing how this will work.

Take care,
Brian Johns

Dan Anderson

06-03-2003, 10:42 PM

Kaith,
You are right on the money in citing the differences between seniors. It's not only in kenpo but in other arts as well, including how Tim and I move. That's life in any art. You're also right on the money in that anything being a certificate mill is a bad idea. How many levels will a person jump at the Symposium? No data but one of the reasons I agreed to be on the board is so I could have some positive influence. Personally, I don't think this is going to be a "trampoline promotion fest" nor will I lend my agreement to it. Nor is this going to be an declaring of who is the "best of the best" in Modern Arnis either.

Brian,
Yes, most organizations are going to handle promotions on their own. This is for the ronin. Not everybody belongs to a group.

This is my understanding of the promotion aspect of the symposium. Jerome could state it better than I and can handle your questions as well.

Yours,

()

PS - Will somebody help me get back my name?

Dan Anderson

06-03-2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by arnisador
1. Frankly, the Professor retained authority for black belt promotions nearly to himself--one could argue that most of us are assuming any promotion authority we may think we have.

2. And much of the authority remained with him. If one believes that only the IMAF's MOTTs have authority in his passing, the Philippines Modern Arnis folks are over-reaching their authority, for example. It's a mess. I honestly believe the Prof. would want us to do the best we could.

3. I believe he trusted and respected my judgment and my goodwill, based on things he said to me--I feel I would be in his good graces in moving forward as best I could and, as he always wanted us to do, in sharing the art.

I have no doubt that everyone else would say the same, and be just as correct!

Arnisador,

1. Eeeeyyaaahhhhhhh! Marvelous counter-point! Prof. told Tim once regarding promoting anyone to Black Belt on their own, "Tim. I don't even let Dan Anderson do that."

2. Much? How about all? One could put any organization's call letters in the second sentence and it would be valid. I know Arnisador isn't shooting at the MOTTs but making an example.

3. Yes. Absolutely.

Yours,

( )

PS - If nobody is going to help me on this name business, I'm going to do it myself. Darth Rustaz, your suggestion is rejected.

Rich Parsons

06-03-2003, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Heres another question.
. . .

So, we gonna jump a few folks from 3rd to 8th?

. . .

:asian:

Kaith,

What are you doing giving away my plans???

Just because, I got drunk and told you my evil plans. :EG: Does not mean you can tell the world :wah:

I had such hopes to get that 8th Degree. :mad:

Oh Well, I will just have to remain where I am at, and gain the respect of others one beer at a time. ;)

:rofl:

Enjoy your day, I do :cool:

bloodwood

06-03-2003, 11:22 PM

Dan
My no name refference was to the name for the testing board not to those on that board or any disrespect to those on that board.

Now that you have made it known that you will be part of this testing board, Who will sit with you? Is it all the presenters at the symposium or just certain ones?

As for certificates given out by the Professor, some of mine say IMAF and others say Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines. Both however were for achievement in HIS organization, the IMAF.

For the lone wolves out there who don't need to belong to any group, rank shouldn't matter to them either.

bloodwood

Dan Anderson

06-04-2003, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by bloodwood
Dan
My no name refference was to the name for the testing board not to those on that board or any disrespect to those on that board.

Now that you have made it known that you will be part of this testing board, Who will sit with you? Is it all the presenters at the symposium or just certain ones?

bloodwood

Blood,

I actually didn't think you truely meant disrespect but thought I'd better make light of it before someone took it seriously.

To my knowledge, the board will for sure consist of myself, Dieter Knuettel, Bram Frank, Tom Bolden and Jerome Barber with Tim Hartman lending his recomendations but not actually part of the grading board. This is his decision and has to do with by-laws in the WMAA. There will probably be others but these are who I am certain of. Note: I did not make up the board so the above info might be wrong.

As somewhat of a lone wolf myself, I care about validation for my efforts and rank is a method of validation used in Modern Arnis. All for now.

Oh. Per the above quote, I now have my name back. Big thanks to all of you who didn't aid me one bit in this endeavor. Thanks a big bunch!
:moon:

Yours,
the recently reinstated Dan Anderson

Dan Anderson

06-04-2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I had such hopes to get that 8th Degree.

Oh Well, I will just have to remain where I am at, and gain the respect of others one beer at a time.

Rikki,

By the power invested in me, I now promote you to 8th Grade. Have fun in high school this fall.

Yours,
the recently reinstated Dan Anderson

PS - you'll need to get more than one beer in me to get my respect. :rofl:

Rocky

06-04-2003, 10:57 AM

Manilla 1956, a fairly good sized, strong agressive Balintawak practioner, comes to the conclusion that the one on one method of training may produce good fighters, but the arts were not growing or being introduced to the world, like Karate or Kung Fu. So he figures a way to modifiy and blend the knowledge that he has accumulated over the years with a Karate type of teaching structor, and BAM !!! he emerges as GRAND MASTER REMY PRESAS 10 Degree BLackbelt!!!!!! WOW!!! who gave him that 10th degree!!!! All he did was create a new way of teaching. But in reality that isn't that special, people re invent new ways of teaching all the time. Ask someone like Master Anderson if he hasn't changed the way he teaches, from time to time over the years and years and yeaaarrrs :-) When he grows and learns, he passes it on to his student as do most of us. Whats my point here?? Well an organization or an art needs a leader, if its going to function properly. As long as that person can demonstrate the skills or knowledge that is usually associated with that rank, which Remy sure as hell could do whats the problem. And sometime's extream situations call for extream measures. And if it is TIm Hartman you are hinting at, what woud you rather have had him do. Remy's rank system was definately left somewhat a mess. And Tim's organization felt this was there best way at handling a situation they were faced with. It may or may not be your way or my way, but he made a desision for the better of his oraganizaation and the art he is trying to help preserve. And his skills are as good as many others I have met with even high rank than his. If you don't like it you don't have to train with him.

Secondly if you are not active in his oraganization or even the art what do you care.

As far as the fast food martial arts in America you are correct, it is rampid. In modern arnis you have current grand Masters or high ranking masters with 10 to 15 years of training, to me thats not much time. BUT WHO GAVE THEM THIS RANK MY FRIEND. Let see he was not born in the U.S.A, he didn't look European!!! Can you figure it out yet skippy!! Thats right it was Remy you know that guy from dare I say.......... the Philipines!! And there are many others promoted in Pekiti Tersia, Doce Paris, Balintawak, and its various blends, all promoted to ranks that may not be appropreat for there skill level, it happeens in every art, and quite often by Non American born personal trying to make MONEY!!!!!

So far from what I can see Tim does a pretty damn professional job of keeping and running a tight ship, something many of the grand Masters out there could learn from.

Yours truely

Rankless Rocky!

Datu Tim Hartman

06-04-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Rocky
So far from what I can see Tim does a pretty damn professional job of keeping and running a tight ship, something many of the grand Masters out there could learn from.

Yours truely

Rankless Rocky!

:asian:

norshadow1

06-04-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by bloodwood
Promotions in Modern Arnis were given to members of the IMAF. They were given these promotions, for what ever reason, to show their advancement in the Organization, not arnis in general. As in all other martial arts, promotion are done within the different organizations not in general, say for all the Kenpo groups to recognize all kempo promotions.

bloodwood

I did not recall any mention of the Promotions Board that DocB wrote about in his post, testing people for ranking in "Modern Arnis". There are two IMAF's and the WMAA for that specific purpose. And since no details were released in his post, everyone is engaging in speculation. Wait until next week when DocB posts the details.

Even Kempo/Kenpo organizational rankings are not recognized by all the other organizations using the generic title.

Originally posted by Bloodwood
So what you are saying is that you and presenters at the symposium will set the standards for rank promotions in Modern Arnis, without the need for being associated with any organization. What will the certificates say at the top? Who will recognize these promotions? Datu Hartman was promoted within his organization and Dieter was promoted by high ranking old timers in the PI. If they were to test under the guidelines you are stating they still woud be getting promoted by those of lesser rank. So it would be no different than Datu Hartman's promotion except it would be done by the no name promotion board and not an organizational thing.
bloodwood [/B]

I don't recall anything of that nature being written by DocB. How would he or anyone else set the standards for all of Modern Arnis? That was never hinted at in anything that I have read or heard the man say. I can't tell what the certificate will say, as for who will recognize the validity of the promotions, I would tend to believe that it will depend upon the individual person and organizational leaders as always. Hell, I know that Delaney does not recognize any rank certification other than his own, even when the rank was awarded by the late Professor!

I would tend to believe that the individuals who want to be tested by an independent and bipartisan board of senior masters is not too worried about who will recognize the rank. As I understand the concept of this board it is being put together for those people who are not currently associated with any FMA organization.

Originally posted by bloodwood
Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.
Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group. Not just grab the promotion and run.
bloodwood [/B]

Part of the problem is that there are some people who have been part of the MAPF and IMAF under Professor, and left for any number of reasons including politics. There are a number of people who have not been promoted for years, yet they have taught, kept the art alive and chose to remain independent. A promotion from a board of senior masters would be beneficial to these people.

As far as the "... just grab the promotion and run" syndrome, can you state with clear and compelling certinty that people did not go to camps and seminars under the late Professor and engage in exactly that kind of behavior?

Originally posted by Bloodwood
And just so you know, I am NOT dissing the symposium. This is not about the symposium. My comments are only on the way of doing these promotions. I think the symposium is a great idea and I hope it goes well.

bloodwood [/B]

I am not viewing your comments as dissing the symposium. I just think that you have jumped the gun and started posting before you had any details. That said, I am hopeful that DocB has taken all of your concerns into account as he finalized the details. As posted by Dan Anderson before he lost his name, the only Senior Master who will not be an active participant on the board is Datu Hartman. That was his decision. I do not know what the certificate title will be but I doubt that it will infer any alignment with a specific organization such as the IMAF, WMAA or the like.

I can tell you that this promotional board is another offshot of the Gathering of Eagles event in 2001. Doc has discussed the concept with several GMs who attended the event for their input.
On the positive side the Promotional Board idea eliminates the need for students to participate in promoting their instructors. That is always a bad deal in terms of appearence. The fact that there is not a living GM in the particular art - Modern Arnis in this case - means that an alternate method for promotions must be developed.

With the above idea in mind AND knowing that Datu Hartman, was promoted by his own students plus the concurrence of GM Gyi and GM Jornales, neither of who are runing Modern Arnis orgaizations, the question that has to be asked is his 7th degree in Modern Arnis, Jornales Arnis or Bando? Or is it under the WMAA structure? I am not being disrepectful or denying his promotion is valid, I am simply asking the same question of Datu Hartman, that you are asking of the people who might test at the Symposium.

Lamont

Dan Anderson

06-04-2003, 03:45 PM

Gents ( I don't know if any ladies have posted on this thread yet),

Yowsah!

Rocco,
"So he figures a way to modifiy and blend the knowledge that he has accumulated over the years with a Karate type of teaching structor, and BAM !!! he emerges as GRAND MASTER REMY PRESAS 10 Degree BLackbelt!!!!!! WOW!!! who gave him that 10th degree!!!!

Yeehah! Someone finally said it! Yes, yes, yes, and if someone didn't totally get it, yes.

"Ask someone like Master Anderson if he hasn't changed the way he teaches, from time to time over the years and years and yeaaarrrs)"

I cut my hair short to hide the grey and bald spots...or spot but it is a big one.

"So far from what I can see Tim does a pretty damn professional job of keeping and running a tight ship, something many of the grand Masters out there could learn from."

Do you mean The Little General?[/b]
:D

Lamont,
"As posted by Dan Anderson before he lost his name,"

I got my name back with Blood saying he meant no disrespect. It was about time, too, as I had bills that needed to be paid and I didn't know what to sign.
:D

You know, with what Rocco posted (quoted above), I just might go the Choki Motobu route. Hmmmmm...a thoght.

Yours,
No longer nameless Dan Anderson

PS - I should have put Rocco on the list of who I think might be on the testing board. Sorry, Rock.

Datu Tim Hartman

06-04-2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Do you mean The Little General?

That's to close to military arnis.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

arnisador

06-04-2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by norshadow1
With the above idea in mind AND knowing that Datu Hartman, was promoted by his own students plus the concurrence of GM Gyi and GM Jornales, neither of who are runing Modern Arnis orgaizations, the question that has to be asked is his 7th degree in Modern Arnis, Jornales Arnis or Bando? Or is it under the WMAA structure? I am not being disrepectful or denying his promotion is valid, I am simply asking the same question of Datu Hartman, that you are asking of the people who might test at the Symposium.

Mr. Hartman was promoted by his organization, through its board, so the answer is "under the WMAA structure" i.e. this is WMAA rank. This was done through the actions of his own students, yes, but I find that phrasing somewhat dismissive. I would not ask anyone else to recognize the rank--it's their choice--but I do want to emphasize that he was promoted by the organization according to its rules. The organization is staffed by its members, but it's the organization as a fictitious body that promoted him.

I would also note that Mr. Jornales is a Modern Arnis datu. Full stop. His input therefore seems relevant. In the Professor's absence, turning to the datus ("chieftains" or "leaders") seems a very reasonable approach to me.

JMP

06-04-2003, 05:56 PM

Good post
I think you have hit the nail on the head Rock, why should anyone who is not in with Hartman worry about his rank.
Personly I am not sure who runs what, I have only seen and talked to most of these people who are teaching once or twice, we need to let then alone so they can do there own thing.
They can train there way, you train yours everyone is happy.
Stop watching what the other guy rank, look at his skill, have fun and train.

Ranklesssssss
Jim

bloodwood

06-04-2003, 06:33 PM

People put out questions about this promotion board that should be answered by DrB but instead norshadow answers.

VERY INTERESTING!!!

Dan Anderson

06-04-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by JMP

Stop watching what the other guy rank, look at his skill, have fun and train.

Ranklesssssss
Jim

Hit the nail on the head!

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Cruentus

06-04-2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by bloodwood
People put out questions about this promotion board that should be answered by DrB but instead norshadow answers.

VERY INTERESTING!!!

heh.
Kind of like how Mr. Hat answers for Mr. Garrison on Southpark.

:D

Rich Parsons

06-04-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Rikki,

By the power invested in me, I now promote you to 8th Grade. Have fun in high school this fall.

Yours,
the recently reinstated Dan Anderson

PS - you'll need to get more than one beer in me to get my respect. :rofl:

Hmm, 8th Grade? not sure I can go back that far. I cannot eat like that anymore ;)

Maybe as in College, then I could at least think about dating a 21 year old young lady. :eek: ;)

Well, that would not be the first time we have shared mroe than one beer . :asian:

Rich Parsons

06-04-2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by JMP
Good post
I think you have hit the nail on the head Rock, why should anyone who is not in with Hartman worry about his rank.
Personly I am not sure who runs what, I have only seen and talked to most of these people who are teaching once or twice, we need to let then alone so they can do there own thing.
They can train there way, you train yours everyone is happy.
Stop watching what the other guy rank, look at his skill, have fun and train.

Ranklesssssss
Jim

What He said :)

Rich Parsons

06-04-2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by bloodwood
People put out questions about this promotion board that should be answered by DrB but instead norshadow answers.

VERY INTERESTING!!!

Yes I would like to get the answers from the organizer. If he was not ready to have the issue discussed, ten it should not have been mentioned.

Unless, he was trying to get public feedback, without asking for it? :confused: :rolleyes:

Still waiting for answers
:asian:

Bob Hubbard

06-04-2003, 11:38 PM

What was the promotion schedule that was published? Was it 1 level every 3 years or something, up to 9th?

Given that several of the individuals were last promoted by Remy in the late 80's, early 90's, and Remy didn't die until 2001, why weren't there higher ranks then?

I heard of one individual who recieved a 2nd degree, then a few weeks later got a 3rd. About a year later this person is now a 5th.

My opinion is that crap like this simply makes rank worthless. I feel that one should stand and test for their rank, not recieve it 'automatically' for time in. After all, you may goto school for 4 years and bet a BS, but you dont get your masters 4 years later. You need to pass some tests and meet some requirements..right? I dont have to just hang out at the school for another 2-4 years for my doctorate, I have to fufill some requirements right?

If I want a high rank, I think I'll work at it, bust my hump and prove I got what it takes. Otherwise, I got a decent inkjet printer and can bump myself up fine on my own, no need to spend a few hundred bucks for some 'ego strokin'.

If I want the other Arnis groups to reconize my rank, I'll figure out their curiculums n test for it. Freebies or 'paid paperwork' just is so much wall candy to me.

Just my 2 cents.

:asian:

Dan Anderson

06-05-2003, 12:22 AM

Kaith,
Chill a little bit. I understand about the "trampoline rank promotions" and I don't like them either. The promotion shcedule was published in RP's first book in English. You can find it there. Why he didn't promote anyone higher in the US is a question that will never be answered. As to anyone recognizing anyone else's rank (in Modern Arnis in present time), acknowledgement maybe, recognition I don't think so.

Jerome,
It's time for you to get online for a brief dissertation on the subject of promotions at the Symposium.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard

06-05-2003, 12:43 AM

Dan,
I live in Buffalo, the weathers been unseasonally cold since last October, I can do nothing -but- chill. :)

I'll shut up now.

:asian:

arnisador

06-05-2003, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
After all, you may goto school for 4 years and bet a BS, but you dont get your masters 4 years later.

Do Cambridge and Oxford still do this? Something like 3 years to bachelors, then they mail you a masters 2 years later?

Bob Hubbard

06-05-2003, 01:16 AM

Ya got me. Would explain a lot though. Spend 4 years in class, taking tests. Over the next few years ya send in money, and they send you degrees and titles.

Oh wait... were we talking college or martial arts promotions? :rofl:

moromoro

06-05-2003, 05:55 AM

In traditional eskrima there was/ is no rank only the knowledge and skills that where passed on the empitimy was to be known as a MAAYO ESKRIMADOR. SOME ONE WHO HAS FACED CHALLENGES AND SURVIVED, SOMEONE NOT SCARED AND READY TO TAKE ON ANYBODY ANYTIME FOR A TEST OF ABILITY. THIS IS ESKRIMA.......

No rank, no belts, no dans, no ********.

Heres the funny thing about what people are saying, they keep saying rank doesnt matter but yet they keep chasing these ranks, and sometimes resulting in juniors of the art giving the ranks to their seniors.......
If rank does not matter to you why do this??????????????

the answer is the fact it is now commercial.

no longer about quality and only about having the biggest organisations, the biggest number of students and the most worldwide teaching trips on their passport.

this is not what eskrima is about, this never was eskrima.

RANK DOES NOT MATTER IT IS ABOUT SKILL............ BUT PEOPLE MISTAKE SKILL FOR THE BIGGEST CLASSES AND THE FRONT PAGE MAGAZINE ADS AND THE FANCY WEBSITES. THIS IS WRONG.

So he figures a way to modifiy and blend the knowledge that he has accumulated over the years with a Karate type of teaching structor, and BAM !!! he emerges as GRAND MASTER REMY PRESAS 10 Degree BLackbelt!!!!!! WOW!!! who gave him that 10th degree

yes this happend a lot in the past and still is happening alot today. you see there is no problem with calling yourself a master as long as you are prepared to take on the consequenses of such a titile and that is to never back out of a challenge.

thanks

terry

DoctorB

06-05-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by bloodwood
Promotions in Modern Arnis were given to members of the IMAF. They were given these promotions, for what ever reason, to show their advancement in the Organization, not arnis in general. As in all other martial arts, promotion are done within the different organizations not in general, say for all the Kenpo groups to recognize all kempo promotions.

So what you are saying is that you and presenters at the symposium will set the standards for rank promotions in Modern Arnis, without the need for being associated with any organization. What will the certificates say at the top? Who will recognize these promotions? Datu Hartman was promoted within his organization and Dieter was promoted by high ranking old timers in the PI. If they were to test under the guidelines you are stating they still woud be getting promoted by those of lesser rank. So it would be no different than Datu Hartman's promotion except it would be done by the no name promotion board and not an organizational thing.

Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.
Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group.
Not just grab the promotion and run.

And just so you know, I am NOT dissing the symposium. This is not about the symposium. My comments are only on the way of doing these promotions. I think the symposium is a great idea and I hope it goes well.

bloodwood

Bloodwood, since you do not yet know how the testing and promotions - if any - will be handled why are you asking these questions now? And speaking of questions. Why would you expect me to answer a complex set of your quetions when you can not and have not answered a simple question of mine regarding "exactly how was Norshadow out of line?"

I wrote the following comments about the promotions/testing board:

My solution to this promotional problem for at least the short term is to develop promotional boards made up of Senior Masters, Datus, MoTTs and System Chief Instructors, for the express purpose of promoting people who are qualifed. That is what I am working on for the Modern Arnis Symposium in Buffalo this coming July. Most of the Senior people attending are in favor of doing that and I will be making the final announcement on the plan next week.

Such a board will preclude any need for students to get involved in the promotion of their individual instructors. Appearence and substance are of equal importance when promotions are being considered and made.

Skill is the best indicator of rank, however it would be entirely ridiculous to believe that all promotions in Modern Arnis under the late professor Presas were only and always skill based. That is part of the reason that I first proposed to host the Symposium. There was a lot of talking, sniping and broad claims being made. The Symposium is one way to find out who in fact has the skills to back up the claims of rank and title.

It will be interesting to me to see how many people take a pro-active position and how many just continue to snipe. How many instructors will attend and encourage their students to do the same thing? The Symposium is a learning opportunity, but some people will choose to avoid attending because what they might see and experience could be diffenent from their expectations and biases.
+ + + + + + + + + ++ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

I have not excluded any person or group, nor have I infered, indicated or stated that the Symposium Board would or could be the only one to exist for this purpose, did I?

Come to the Symposium, participate and then make your comments. You and everyone else with the exception of Dan Anderson who have commented on the board idea, DO NOT have enough information to make an INFORMED judgement.

Those people who are attending, who have paid their deposits or the full sum and the instructors presenting are the only people that I will listen to between now and July 14. These people have a vested interest in the event and it's outcome, the rest of you have nothing to offer except noise.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Datu Tim Hartman

06-05-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by moromoro
No rank, no belts, no dans, no ********.

Heres the funny thing about what people are saying, they keep saying rank doesnt matter but yet they keep chasing these ranks, and sometimes resulting in juniors of the art giving the ranks to their seniors.......If rank does not matter to you why do this??????????????

the answer is the fact it is now commercial.

So what you're saying people and systems like the following:

Remy Presas - Modern Arnis
Ernesto Presas - Kombatan
Canete Family - Doce Pares
Presas Kids - MARPPIO

Are sell outs because they do a belt system. Of course we know that there are more FMAs that use a ranking system.

moromoro

06-05-2003, 10:24 AM

Not sell outs but they realise that they can change the teaching to accomodate more pupils.

look, eskrima does not take long to become proficient in its mainly in principles and fighting.

but these instructors
Remy Presas - Modern Arnis
Ernesto Presas - Kombatan
Canete Family - Doce Pares

where NEVER EVER EVER EVER taught in these ranking systems in the FMA..................................

WHAT DIDNT TAKE THEM LONG TO UNDERSTAND AND LEARN WILL NOW TAKE THEM YEARS AND YEARS TO TEACH.......E.G HOW MANY 10TH DANS DO YOU SEE WALKING AROUND IN THOSE SYSTEMS...

see what they teach is good (some very good) but the ranking structure is there also to keep things away from students......

and also to keep the students comming back for more (thats where the money thing comes out)

gm Caballero was known to do this teach alot of useless stuff (stuff that he did and does not use in combat) and create levels to make students keep comming back...
Same with many other masters..

DoctorB

06-05-2003, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Heres another question. Who will reconize the promotion?

To some, grading 'stopped' with Remys death. To others, they are working with the established organizations on promotion. Still the question remains...who will make the determination?

Since the organizations usually set the curiculum, if you aren't familiar with it, how can you test it?

Will either IMAF reconize a promotion done by the WMAA? Will MARPPIO reconize an IMAF promotion? If its done by an independent board, why should they?

With all due respect to you my friend because we have had some face to face conversations I have to disagree with your position.
First and foremost, the decision to acknowledge and recognize any persons paper ranking is a matter of personal preference.

The IMAFs, Marppio and WMAA are at loggerheads over who is best representing and preserving the art as taught be Remy Presas, why are you asking such a nonsense question? The answer is fairly obvious to all, when none of the above have necessarily accepted ranks given out by the late Professor. There is also the small matter of monetary motive.

None of the people who will be sitting on the testing/promotions board at the Symposium are so ego-driven that we will assert and promise that others will accept our recommendations with regard to rank - it is after all is said and done, just another sheet of paper. BUT, part of the problem in Modern Arnis right now is that too many individuals, regardless of group affiliation are not ready to work in a cooperative manner. Just look at the lack of cooperation and endorsement of the Symposium as just one example.

Are you going to attend the Symposium? If not why not? It is being held in your city. One of the featured instructors is your instructor and system president. There are numerous people on the program whom you have never worked with or trainied under for even one hour in your life. It would be greast to have you attend and compare for yourself.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

To some, grading 'stopped' with Remys death. To others, they are working with the established organizations on promotion. Still the question remains...who will make the determination?

[/B]

That is the crux of the problem isn't it? For some people it seems that everything is focused on what Remy did and said before he died. Does that mean that life stops and nothing can change? In my case the answer is a resounding NO! There is most certinly life after Remy and the Symposium is just ONE WAY of making connectioins with other people and other ideas within a very large field of action under the name Modern Arnis.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Having trained with many kenpoists, I see problems. School a does a technique one way, school b has made its own 'tweaks' and school c uses a newer reference guide. So, who determines which is right? I've seen a few of the seniors move. They dont move the same. Sometimes, they conflict each other when 'correcting' students. Why? Because they each see things differently.

[/B]

Has it ever occured to you and others who want to deny differences that "a", "b" and "c" could all be right. That what works for me might work for you if you do it EXACTLY as I have done it. But if you are allowed and encouraged to modify the technique to suit your own body and skill level that you can make this technique work as effectively as I can make the "orignal" work for me!

I remember Remy telling us to "Make it for yourself!" He says the samething on his 1986 video series, several times. That statement is the spiritual driver for the Symposium. Let's see how some people have made the art for themselves. Cloning at my schools is not an option for consideration.

Since you are writing about "Having trained with many kenpoist", I am left with ther impression that you have not studied kenpo as a seperate art. I am only going by what you have written. Since I was at the Gathering of Eagles in 2001, I can tell you that a great deal of the differences are perpetuated by students and low ranking blackbelt holders. The Seniors and Grand Masters at the event were quite supportive of one another. GM Bill Chun, Jr., showed us the "hard" and "soft" variations of the very same techniques and he was applauded and assisted by Seniors and GMs from other kenpo organizations. The decision to accept or reject is personal not systemic.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Unless this idea is done carefully, it runs the risk of being clasified as nothing more than a 'certificate mill'. (See the Bad Budo forum for definitions).
[/B]

It is damn near impossible to have a 'certificate mill' at a ONE TIME EVENT! The board will be together for one and possibly two days. There are no plans to keep the board alive beyond July 13, 2003. You and your siupporters are grasping at straws because YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY credible information about the board and its operational philosophy. Why not wait until you have information from me, before you jump up and get critical?

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Another question is, how many levels will folks jump? A few people haven't been promoted in a heck of a long time. We all jump on Ms. McManus for getting her 3rd a few weeks after she got her 2nd. So, we gonna jump a few folks from 3rd to 8th? Why? If you're gonna do that, what meaning does any of the rank have? I think we have enough paper black belts in the arts as it is.

My opinion is, I agree with bloodwood.

[/B]

Now that you have put Ms. McManus's name forward in the same pharagraph that you mention that some people "...haven't been promoted in a heck of a long time." Why did you go running head long into a discussion without first having the facts? The testing/promotions board is intended to address precisely that latter problem that you have mentioned above. How many levels, if any will be people be bumped? I do not know. There is no one in line to be tested as of today AND the board would have to decide that on a case by case basis - IF it were necessary. I will not rule out a couple of levels jump, but I would also be VERY surprised if the board members would be inclined to go more than ONE STEP UP. The McManus promotion did not sit well with any of us.

Since you have mentioned Ms. McManus and by inference Delaney and the IMAF, why would you fail to mention Tim Hartman being promoted by his students. Outside of the WMAA, that raised more than a few eyebrows. I know, in May the signatures of Dr. Gyi and GM Jornales were added to the document and announced. But that was an AFTER THE FACT occurence wasn't it? I have suggested that it would have been better if the two GMs concurrece could have been announced at the time the promotion was made public. One high ranking WMAA offical sent me a private message acknowledging that there was an error in timing and perhaps waiting until the May Camp in Buffalo would have been a better idea. I agree with him.

In addition I would suggest that you check the thread opened by Dieter on rank advancement in November 2002 and read my post where I stated that I am opposed to students promoting their instructors. That post was written months BEFORE the WMAA Advisory Board took it's action. My position on this matter has nothing to do with Tim Hartman as an individual. It is both a philosophical and organizational issue with me.

We do not allow students to determine teacher tenure and pay raises in public or private schools, why would the martial arts be any different? The deed is done. But lets also look at who sent in the congratulation posts after the promotion was announced - primarily members of the club - WMAA members and friends of Tim's. To take the position that these posts constitute an impartial and objective endorsement by Tim's peers is both foolish and myopic.

If people test before the Symposium Board, their instructors will not be sitting on the board for the test. The testing/promotions board at the Symposium is interested in giving an objective measure of martial skills.

BTW, I will give you and others one piece of information about the testing - it will only be open to people who have attained a Lakan or higher ratining in Modern Arnis.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Rocky

06-05-2003, 11:08 AM

yes this happend a lot in the past and still is happening alot today. you see there is no problem with calling yourself a master as long as you are prepared to take on the consequenses of such a titile and that is to never back out of a challenge.

Yes and Remy never backed down from anyone!!!

Rocky

Dan Anderson

06-05-2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Dan,
I live in Buffalo, the weathers been unseasonally cold since last October, I can do nothing -but- chill. :)

:asian:

Well stated! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Dan

Dan Anderson

06-05-2003, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by moromoro
1. In traditional eskrima there was/ is no rank...

2. Heres the funny thing about what people are saying, they keep saying rank doesnt matter but yet they keep chasing these ranks, and sometimes resulting in juniors of the art giving the ranks to their seniors.......
If rank does not matter to you why do this??????????????

3. the answer is the fact it is now commercial.

4. no longer about quality and only about having the biggest organisations, the biggest number of students and the most worldwide teaching trips on their passport.

5. this is not what eskrima is about, this never was eskrima.

6. RANK DOES NOT MATTER IT IS ABOUT SKILL............ BUT PEOPLE MISTAKE SKILL FOR THE BIGGEST CLASSES AND THE FRONT PAGE MAGAZINE ADS AND THE FANCY WEBSITES. THIS IS WRONG.

thanks

terry

Terry,
You surface but you don't write me even after several requests.

1. Look up in a dictionary and learn the differences between the words traditional and modern. Traditional eskrima is different than modern arnis.

2. I never said that rank doesn't matter so don't lump me in with this tirade. Rank, if done right, is and indicator of skill. Ranking comes in many different ways. I know in traditional eskrima there is an in-house pecking order, i.e. who is the top student, second top student and so forth so to get into this frothing tirade against rank is double talk and disingenuous (look that one up as well). Do I chase it? No. I never asked for any ranking I received in Modern Arnis and it was awarded to me by the founder.

3. That's your opinion obviously based on bias. You haven't seen all the schools and all the instructors so you are making a broad based generality of a statement.

4. Same as #3 but even more ignorant of the facts.

5. Absolutely correct. My current instructor, Manong Ted Buot, made sure I understood that with him there are no ranks, no certificates, no nothing of this sort. He teaches traditional eskrima.

6. If that is what rank is all about then I'd agree with you but that is not what rank is all about. It may and has degenerated to that at times but to say all ranking in FMA is that is to insult some of the abve named practitioners of FMA (the Presas brothers and the Canete family).

Terry, get in touch.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Datu Tim Hartman

06-05-2003, 01:08 PM

Terry-

you sound like a broken record. You said your peace and others have said thiers. I think we can ALL agree to disagree. I think it's time to let it go.

Tim Hartman

Rocky

06-05-2003, 01:28 PM

Another question is, how many levels will folks jump? A few people haven't been promoted in a heck of a long time. We all jump on Ms. McManus for getting her 3rd a few weeks after she got her 2nd. So, we gonna jump a few folks from 3rd to 8th? Why? If you're gonna do that, what meaning does any of the rank have? I think we have enough paper black belts in the arts as it is.

Ok I am about to catch hell again I can FEEEEL it ! If you don't like to hear the truth ( some of it negative about Remy) close your eyes or leave the room, I'l wait.......tick, tock tick tock..... ok everyone that lives in fantasyland gone??? Ok boy's and girls lets sharpen up those pencils and take notes!

In 1982 there were approximately 50 of us in the U.S ranked blackbelt or higher. The highest rank was Robert Demott 6th degree blackbelt, not a very talented Eskrimador but a great organizer, hence the high rank!!! In 1982 Remy held his first camp in WV. I went down about 5 days early and helped Jeff Arnold and his crew from Flint Michigan get the camp (formerly owned by Elvis) ready for Remy. Jeff at the time was Remy's golden boy and one of the higher ranking people in his stable 3rd Degree Blackbelt. I know Remy had a couple of other 3rd degrees on the Left Coast, I believe Barbara Bones, Maybe Fred King, Master Anderson, Wendy Dragonfire, Bruce Tegner, Rick Mitchell and maybe a few more but thats about it, Master Anderson might be able to elaborate!!!! Well this first camp (probably the best) was a great sucess. It was also the begining of the "Have students will get rank" era of Modern Arnis. Rank in Modern Arnis since the early 80's has rarely been about ability, but rather a passafirer for those that had schools, especially big schools that could bring the Professor in for seminars. From 1981 to about 1988 Remy would live at my parents house for months at a time he had his own room their. Quite often for you old timers when you couldn't find Remy and no one new where he was, he was at my parents house, he and my father would walk for hours, bull **** about everything and anything, go to the movies and train, he liked to wrestle alot with my dad. He would also try to make as many of my football, and Lacross games as he could when he was there. After school we trained for hours everyday some times for months at a time. He liked to have a get away where nobody would try to get rank or anything else out of him. He even cooked sometimes. I think it unlikely that very few if anyone in the U.S has more actual training time with Remy than I do. Some of you old timers know this to be true, hell he would stay at our home in Michigan and his students here wouldn't even know he was in town. Now that being said I for the life of me can not figure how some of these people can hold there heads up with pride and say they are qualified to be the rankest person of this organization or that one. Modern Arnis's rank is just insane. And Remy who had this Phobeia I call it ("Remophobiea") I use to really get his blood up when I called him Uncle Remo. Anyways Remophobia ( this will be on the test boys & girls) is the fear of hurting a fellow modern arnis practioners feelings, so you tell them what they want to here. You can find the defintion on pg. 173 of the "Book of Rock" :-)

Anyways Remy could never find it in his heart to tell someone that they wern't as good as they thought they were or that they didn't deserve the rank they were looking for. Ok kids how many of you have attended a seminar and Remy would introduce this person or that person as his top student, protege' or something to that effect?? and the next week at a diffeernet seminar he would say the same about someone else. WOW look at those hands go up!!!

Back in 1982 Remy told me he was working on a stratagie for spreading his art. He new that some of his guys were not really good blackbelts, but he wanted to get his art tought everywhere. Now one of his master plans was he would do these large seminars and in between them I (at 16 yrs old) would do smaller ones and try to spend time bringing people up to speed. The first test area for this was Buffalo New York. A guy by the name of Don Zanghi had attended Remy's first camp, was given and instructors certificate and started teaching at his school. Don was a very nice man, a smart self defense man, but his Arnis skills were limited. So he started to bring me in every few months or so. Then one day I show up and he tells me one of his students was promoted without his knowledge to blackbelt and was opening his own school. This was the begining of years of bull **** for Buffalo. Now Remy comes to town telling this person or that person they are the top guys in Buffalo. People start arguing back and forth blaming each other for back stabbing one another, (am I wrong Dr. B). I was trying not to get caught in the middle cause everyone treated me pretty good when I was in town. But then I would also here stories of Remy telling people those famous words, when ever thay asked about training with me!!! Common Jim Power, you know those 3 little words, Remy said them about you enough times too!!! let me quote them, (On training with Rocky) Oh you got what he has "DON'T ENTERTAIN HIM" anyone ever here these words before?????

Anyways Remy left things a mess, and there will always be contoversy. But I think that guys like Master Hartman and Master Anderson are dealing the best they can with what they were given. And as I said in my last post, if you don't feel comfortable with them don't deal with them. I personally support them both, I would not feel comfortable being tested by either, even though they out rank me in Modern Arnis, myself being only a 5th Degree. But I still support them in any way I can. And to clarify things I would have no problem testing under Master Anderson in Karate, or Master Hartman in Bando, if he is qualified to do so, as I have very limited knowledge in Bando or Master Andersons American free style Karate.

So Mr. Moro Moro I believe it is, why not just let it go, it seems to me that if it bothers you so much just stay away from it.

Rocky

Bob Hubbard

06-05-2003, 01:46 PM

Doctor Barber,

I gotta make this short as I'm in a rush. Wanted to hit a few points quick:

Are you going to attend the Symposium? If not why not? It is being held in your city. One of the featured instructors is your instructor and system president. There are numerous people on the program whom you have never worked with or trainied under for even one hour in your life. It would be greast to have you attend and compare for yourself.
I train with Tim regularly. I have a previous commitment out of town that weekend due to my business or I would be attending. If it wasn't for his being part of the symposium, Tim would have been joining me. Business before pleasure for us both.

Since you are writing about "Having trained with many kenpoist", I am left with ther impression that you have not studied kenpo as a seperate art. I am only going by what you have written.

I've got a bit under a year of kenpo (Im a little vague on the exact time), plus have had some privates. I don't consider myself an 'expert' by a very long shot or currently hold any rank in the art.

It is damn near impossible to have a 'certificate mill' at a ONE TIME EVENT! The board will be together for one and possibly two days. There are no plans to keep the board alive beyond July 13, 2003. You and your siupporters are grasping at straws because YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY credible information about the board and its operational philosophy. Why not wait until you have information from me, before you jump up and get critical?

What is the value of a promotion generated by a 1 time board?

Dr. B, I ask the questions and give my opinion based on what I do know. My intent here is not to attack you or your event (which I agree with btw), but to present certain things so that questions and objections may be raised and answered ahead of time.

The rest I'll have to look at later this evening. Its my GF's b-day and, well, she outranks y'all. :D

Peace. :)

dearnis.com

06-05-2003, 02:26 PM

We do not allow students to determine teacher tenure and pay raises in public or private schools, why would the martial arts be any different?

Because the martial arts are driven by students who have the freedom to choose which instructor(s) they follow. Elementary and secondary school students are more or less stuck with a limited range of options; college students less so.
If student input played a role the racket that is the modern tenure system might not be such a factor.

Chad

arnisador

06-05-2003, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
In traditional eskrima there was/ is no rank only the knowledge and skills that where passed on

We've been told the arts were dying out under this system. Looking at the popularity of TKD, Karate, Judo, etc. in the Philippines, is it possible that changes like this were beneficial to the arts--increased the odds of their survival? Certainly, we've bene told that Remy Presas had such thoughts, and he certainly helped revive and popularize the arts.

What if you were faced with the idea of dying 'pure' arts or living 'modified' arts? When Jigaro Kano faced that prospect, he created Judo, which some decried as impure/watered-down/etc.

If the arts seem strong to you, with lots of students, then it's one thing. To those who see them dying from lack of interest, a change like rank that serves as encouragement and measurement of progress seems a small price to pay.

the empitimy was to be known as a MAAYO ESKRIMADOR.

What does 'maayo' mean?

arnisador

06-05-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by DoctorB
The IMAFs, Marppio and WMAA are at loggerheads over who is best representing and preserving the art as taught be Remy Presas, why are you asking such a nonsense question? The answer is fairly obvious to all, when none of the above have necessarily accepted ranks given out by the late Professor.

Is this true of the WMAA? To which case are you referring?

why would you fail to mention Tim Hartman being promoted by his students. Outside of the WMAA, that raised more than a few eyebrows. I know, in May the signatures of Dr. Gyi and GM Jornales were added to the document and announced. But that was an AFTER THE FACT occurence wasn't it?

This was a logistical matter. We had their endorsements verbally and discussed shipping the certificate to MI for Mr. Jornales to sign then to OH for Dr. Gyi then to IN for me and finally back to NY, in order to get everything 'signed and sealed' as it were. It seemed a bit silly however since we'd all be together in early May. So, approval and willingness to sign were not after the fact--the signatures themselves were done at a convenient time, but the promotion itself was approved. We held off stating their names until the signatures were obtained as a matter of protocol.

I also say again that our position is that the organization promoted Mr. Hartman, not any person or person(s). I won't quibble the semantics and we are not asking anyone to recognize the rank--it's anyone's choice whether they choose to do so--but I would ask that people recognize that the organization did the promotion. The distinction matters in so far as the organization has rules on this matter and acted with the counsel not only of Dr. Gyi and Mr. Jornales but others, e.g. Mr. Planas of Kenpo. It also follows the Kenpo model. Saying 'promoted by his students' is, I feel, dismissive of this. You may well argue that it boils down to that and I could not disagree at some level but it surely is not quite that simple.

I have suggested that it would have been better if the two GMs concurrece could have been announced at the time the promotion was made public. One high ranking WMAA offical sent me a private message acknowledging that there was an error in timing and perhaps waiting until the May Camp in Buffalo would have been a better idea. I agree with him.

'Error' is perhaps too strong a word but in retrospect it would have been nice to have it all done at once. We have severe geography issues--there are board members in DE, IN, MI, PA, and Sweden; Mr. Hartman is in NY, Dr. Gyi is in OH, and Mr. Jornales is in MI. We are also a young and growing organization and are learning! If as you say only Mr. Hartman's supporters support it, then the matter is moot in any event. But I see wider support than that--as well as some 'raised eyebrows' as you put it. But hasn't that been true of every organization or effort? I could say the same of any Modern Arnis group you might mention, in one regard or another.

Good luck with your extra-organizational board. Everyone is finding their own way in the post-Remy Presas Modern Arnis world.

DoctorB

06-05-2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Because the martial arts are driven by students who have the freedom to choose which instructor(s) they follow. Elementary and secondary school students are more or less stuck with a limited range of options; college students less so.
If student input played a role the racket that is the modern tenure system might not be such a factor.

Chad

You have aimed your "student sights" too low. The same applies to college and university students at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. Since my reference is only an analogy, the comparative breakdown is both obvious and easy to achieve.

Certinly college and university students are much freer to "vote with their feet" and take their tution payments elsewhere in much the same way that martial arts students are able to do. But that in no way justifies students determining promotions of their instructors. I understand ALL of the rationals given with regard to Tim's promotion ans the late signatures of Dr Gyi and GM Jornales. I can also accept the explainations. However that does not change the fact that announceing the promotion in May after the WMAA Camp and with the signatures in hand would have been a better public relations move.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Datu Tim Hartman

06-05-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by DoctorB
However that does not change the fact that announceing the promotion in May after the WMAA Camp and with the signatures in hand would have been a better public relations move.

You have your opinion, we have ours. The biggest reason that people are going to complain about this is that it was the 1st promotion to 7th degree since Remy's passing.

DoctorB

06-05-2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by arnisador

This was a logistical matter. We had their endorsements verbally and discussed shipping the certificate to MI for Mr. Jornales to sign then to OH for Dr. Gyi then to IN for me and finally back to NY, in order to get everything 'signed and sealed' as it were. It seemed a bit silly however since we'd all be together in early May. So, approval and willingness to sign were not after the fact--the signatures themselves were done at a convenient time, but the promotion itself was approved. We held off stating their names until the signatures were obtained as a matter of protocol.
[/B]

You have just reinforced my major point. Thanks. Time was not a critical factor in the announcement, therefore waiting until after the May Camp would have resulted in less controversy.

Originally posted by arnisador
I also say again that our position is that the organization promoted Mr. Hartman, not any person or person(s). I won't quibble the semantics and we are not asking anyone to recognize the rank--it's anyone's choice whether they choose to do so--but I would ask that people recognize that the organization did the promotion. The distinction matters in so far as the organization has rules on this matter and acted with the counsel not only of Dr. Gyi and Mr. Jornales but others, e.g. Mr. Planas of Kenpo. It also follows the Kenpo model. Saying 'promoted by his students' is, I feel, dismissive of this. You may well argue that it boils down to that and I could not disagree at some level but it surely is not quite that simple.
[/B]

You can say whatever you want, but the bottom line is that people made the decision. It is an organizational matter, but
the "WMAA" which is only a name, did nothing. The Advisory Board made the decison. How complex or simple is not really the issue. The plain fact is that everyone on the Advisory board has less rank than Tim. It was not the best thing that could have been done. That is why Terry and a few others can hammer on this. It is done, it is over.

Originally posted by arnisador
'Error' is perhaps too strong a word but in retrospect it would have been nice to have it all done at once. We have severe geography issues--there are board members in DE, IN, MI, PA, and Sweden; Mr. Hartman is in NY, Dr. Gyi is in OH, and Mr. Jornales is in MI. We are also a young and growing organization and are learning! If as you say only Mr. Hartman's supporters support it, then the matter is moot in any event. But I see wider support than that--as well as some 'raised eyebrows' as you put it. But hasn't that been true of every organization or effort? I could say the same of any Modern Arnis group you might mention, in one regard or another.

Good luck with your extra-organizational board. Everyone is finding their own way in the post-Remy Presas Modern Arnis world. [/B]

But you miss my point entirely if you insist on the geography limitations. Dr. Gyi and GM Jornales' signatures were and are
the key that elevates this back to the level that it should be at and eliminates most of the controversy. They have the rank and status to pull this promotion off and the AB concurrs - then there is NO controversy because two GMs made the decision. How the hell it went down internally within the organization is a mote point.

Thanks. I think the board is a good idea because it will be made of of Senior Masters and System Leaders. It cuts across organizational lines, yet no one is representing their respective organization in an official capacity. The Symposium Board will represent the Symposium Program and when the Symposium is over the board's official existence and power will become null and void.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-05-2003, 04:23 PM

Rocky, I am not cutting one single word from your post and YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! You have not missed a single point nor misrepresented the facts and in particular regarding Buffalo.

Perhaps the readers of this forum and thread will re-read your post and do a lot of thinking BEFORE they reply. The trouble with too many people in Modern Arnis is that they want everyone to believe what they have to say about what Remy said or did relative to themselves, but they do not want to listen to or believe what others have to say.

We both have said this before and there are going to be people ready to say "Yes, but...."

Rocky, this one of the reasons why the Symposium is necessary. People need to talk face to face and they need to share information, techniques and see how others do the art.

Remy had a lot of students and he said a lot of things to various students at different times. I am one of the few people who has a document signed by Remy regarding a program curriculum. The Symposium is the place where those who want to see it can.

Since you and I go back to 1982 with regard to the Buffalo mess. Since we both know Don Zanghi, John Bryant, dan Carr, Tim Hartman, Tammy Wilson, David Smith, Bill Adams and the late Gary Castanza, we also know where ALL of the skeletons are hidden.

These folks need to attend the Symposium because what they will see in terms of Modern Arnis movements and techniques will open some eyes, quite wide!

You have laid out the truth, my friend and that is just about all that you can do. The rest is up to the readers.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Originally posted by Rocky
Ok I am about to catch hell again I can FEEEEL it ! If you don't like to hear the truth ( some of it negative about Remy) close your eyes or leave the room, I'l wait.......tick, tock tick tock..... ok everyone that lives in fantasyland gone??? Ok boy's and girls lets sharpen up those pencils and take notes!

In 1982 there were approximately 50 of us in the U.S ranked blackbelt or higher. The highest rank was Robert Demott 6th degree blackbelt, not a very talented Eskrimador but a great organizer, hence the high rank!!! In 1982 Remy held his first camp in WV. I went down about 5 days early and helped Jeff Arnold and his crew from Flint Michigan get the camp (formerly owned by Elvis) ready for Remy. Jeff at the time was Remy's golden boy and one of the higher ranking people in his stable 3rd Degree Blackbelt. I know Remy had a couple of other 3rd degrees on the Left Coast, I believe Barbara Bones, Maybe Fred King, Master Anderson, Wendy Dragonfire, Bruce Tegner, Rick Mitchell and maybe a few more but thats about it, Master Anderson might be able to elaborate!!!! Well this first camp (probably the best) was a great sucess. It was also the begining of the "Have students will get rank" era of Modern Arnis. Rank in Modern Arnis since the early 80's has rarely been about ability, but rather a passafirer for those that had schools, especially big schools that could bring the Professor in for seminars. From 1981 to about 1988 Remy would live at my parents house for months at a time he had his own room their. Quite often for you old timers when you couldn't find Remy and no one new where he was, he was at my parents house, he and my father would walk for hours, bull **** about everything and anything, go to the movies and train, he liked to wrestle alot with my dad. He would also try to make as many of my football, and Lacross games as he could when he was there. After school we trained for hours everyday some times for months at a time. He liked to have a get away where nobody would try to get rank or anything else out of him. He even cooked sometimes. I think it unlikely that very few if anyone in the U.S has more actual training time with Remy than I do. Some of you old timers know this to be true, hell he would stay at our home in Michigan and his students here wouldn't even know he was in town. Now that being said I for the life of me can not figure how some of these people can hold there heads up with pride and say they are qualified to be the rankest person of this organization or that one. Modern Arnis's rank is just insane. And Remy who had this Phobeia I call it ("Remophobiea") I use to really get his blood up when I called him Uncle Remo. Anyways Remophobia ( this will be on the test boys & girls) is the fear of hurting a fellow modern arnis practioners feelings, so you tell them what they want to here. You can find the defintion on pg. 173 of the "Book of Rock" :-)

Anyways Remy could never find it in his heart to tell someone that they wern't as good as they thought they were or that they didn't deserve the rank they were looking for. Ok kids how many of you have attended a seminar and Remy would introduce this person or that person as his top student, protege' or something to that effect?? and the next week at a diffeernet seminar he would say the same about someone else. WOW look at those hands go up!!!

Back in 1982 Remy told me he was working on a stratagie for spreading his art. He new that some of his guys were not really good blackbelts, but he wanted to get his art tought everywhere. Now one of his master plans was he would do these large seminars and in between them I (at 16 yrs old) would do smaller ones and try to spend time bringing people up to speed. The first test area for this was Buffalo New York. A guy by the name of Don Zanghi had attended Remy's first camp, was given and instructors certificate and started teaching at his school. Don was a very nice man, a smart self defense man, but his Arnis skills were limited. So he started to bring me in every few months or so. Then one day I show up and he tells me one of his students was promoted without his knowledge to blackbelt and was opening his own school. This was the begining of years of bull **** for Buffalo. Now Remy comes to town telling this person or that person they are the top guys in Buffalo. People start arguing back and forth blaming each other for back stabbing one another, (am I wrong Dr. B). I was trying not to get caught in the middle cause everyone treated me pretty good when I was in town. But then I would also here stories of Remy telling people those famous words, when ever thay asked about training with me!!! Common Jim Power, you know those 3 little words, Remy said them about you enough times too!!! let me quote them, (On training with Rocky) Oh you got what he has "DON'T ENTERTAIN HIM" anyone ever here these words before?????

Anyways Remy left things a mess, and there will always be contoversy. But I think that guys like Master Hartman and Master Anderson are dealing the best they can with what they were given. And as I said in my last post, if you don't feel comfortable with them don't deal with them. I personally support them both, I would not feel comfortable being tested by either, even though they out rank me in Modern Arnis, myself being only a 5th Degree. But I still support them in any way I can. And to clarify things I would have no problem testing under Master Anderson in Karate, or Master Hartman in Bando, if he is qualified to do so, as I have very limited knowledge in Bando or Master Andersons American free style Karate.

So Mr. Moro Moro I believe it is, why not just let it go, it seems to me that if it bothers you so much just stay away from it.

Rocky

DoctorB

06-05-2003, 04:43 PM

Bob, don't worry about a thing.

This is a debate and ideas have to be discussed and position made. My principle arguement herein and with several other people is that you (collectively) can not take a meaningful position until you have the facts to work with. The testing/ promotions board information IS NOT YET available from me.

This idea that because Professor has passed away, there is no longer a way to earn rank is foolish and untrue. It is not coming with Professor's signature on the paper, but some people will welcome and need the opportunity to be tested by a large and impartial board.

On the other hand I am already aware of two instructors who have told their students that if they attend the Symposium that they will remove them from their respective programs. That is sad and very foolish. I am not sure what these students will do, but why is that even necessary?

The Symposium is a difficult thing to put together because so many people what to destroy the idea and this forum has been the main place where the negatives have flown freely. Some people who know better and have information to the contrary, have allowed misleading statements to go unchecked and unchallenged. That annoys me and some days I just feel that I have to step in and set the record straight.

You are not one of the people that I have in mind, however your questions without previous valid information being available does not help me or the Symposium idea.

Too many people are so comfortable with their own snug little organization and standards that they fail to understand what else is out there in terms of Modern Arnis. The Symposium will open some doors and windows.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Doctor Barber,

I gotta make this short as I'm in a rush. Wanted to hit a few points quick:

I train with Tim regularly. I have a previous commitment out of town that weekend due to my business or I would be attending. If it wasn't for his being part of the symposium, Tim would have been joining me. Business before pleasure for us both.

I've got a bit under a year of kenpo (Im a little vague on the exact time), plus have had some privates. I don't consider myself an 'expert' by a very long shot or currently hold any rank in the art.

What is the value of a promotion generated by a 1 time board?

Dr. B, I ask the questions and give my opinion based on what I do know. My intent here is not to attack you or your event (which I agree with btw), but to present certain things so that questions and objections may be raised and answered ahead of time.

The rest I'll have to look at later this evening. Its my GF's b-day and, well, she outranks y'all. :D

Peace. :)

dearnis.com

06-05-2003, 04:59 PM

You have aimed your "student sights" too low.

Explain.

And the commentary is as valid as the analogy.

Chad

moromoro

06-06-2003, 12:38 AM

hi folks.

this is a great dicussion on modern arnis i had no idea you guys had so many different groups.

So Mr. Moro Moro I believe it is, why not just let it go, it seems to me that if it bothers you so much just stay away from it.

rocky rock, it does not really bother me i just find it funny thats all.

now for some points.

1st. In modern arnis it seems everyone wants a higher RANK, some resulting to different methods of attaining them, THEY FAIL TO REALISE THAT THE HIGHEST RANK WESTERNER LEFT BY THE PROF IS 6TH DEGREE now could this have been the reason that he did not promote anybody to 7th???????

2. also in the philippines he has given masters the title of 8th degree. if he followed the japanese ranking structure the title of 8th degree means a high ranking master i.e KENDO.

You said your peace and others have said thiers. I think we can ALL agree to disagree. I think it's time to let it go.

yes, good

thanks

terry

Rich Parsons

06-06-2003, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by DoctorB
. . .

This is a debate and ideas have to be discussed and position made. My principle arguement herein and with several other people is that you (collectively) can not take a meaningful position until you have the facts to work with. The testing/ promotions board information IS NOT YET available from me.

. . .
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome,

If the testing boards and or promotions board information is not yet available, then why did you bring it up? :confused:

You tried to use this point as an issue in this thread, yet you seem to have fallen into the same issue. Was something rushed? Was something out of order? Were you ready, yet something changed at the last minute? Was it an accident to release this information early? Or did you mean to release this information and the questions caught you flat footed?

Curious
:asian:

Datu Tim Hartman

06-06-2003, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by moromoro

1st. In modern arnis it seems everyone wants a higher RANK, some resulting to different methods of attaining them, THEY FAIL TO REALISE THAT THE HIGHEST RANK WESTERNER LEFT BY THE PROF IS 6TH DEGREE now could this have been the reason that he did not promote anybody to 7th???????

No, I think it was because he passed away before he had a chance to do so. Based on how things were going at the time there was a good chance that I would have been the 1st outside the P.I. promoted to that level.

Rocky

06-06-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by moromoro
hi folks.

this is a great dicussion on modern arnis i had no idea you guys had so many different groups.

rocky rock, it does not really bother me i just find it funny thats all.

now for some points.

1st. In modern arnis it seems everyone wants a higher RANK, some resulting to different methods of attaining them, THEY FAIL TO REALISE THAT THE HIGHEST RANK WESTERNER LEFT BY THE PROF IS 6TH DEGREE now could this have been the reason that he did not promote anybody to 7th???????

2. also in the philippines he has given masters the title of 8th degree. if he followed the japanese ranking structure the title of 8th degree means a high ranking master i.e KENDO.

yes, good

thanks

terry

FOr the most part I agree with the Modern Arnis rank thing being all messed up!

However the Remy did promote Master Robert Demott to 7th degree in 1988. I know I was there and it blew my mind. He has half the talent/knowledege of many a blackbelts half his rank!!

But my point is stand back and look at the whole picture. I knew that when Master Hartmans people did what they did he was going to catch hell for it. But he is trying to run an organization (one of the first to be run like an organization) he is trying to do what Remy never could. You may not agree with everything he does but he is out doing what The Profssor wanted, and that is spreadig the art. And as a good business man he is setting up an organization that will be organized in both its way of teaching, and promoting. And if run properly he will be able to make a nice living at it too, which is great.

So instead of just waiting to pounce on people why not step back and look at the whole picture.

Rocky

P.S Some of the so called masters back in the Phillipines are just that "SO CALLED"

DoctorB

06-06-2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Jerome,

If the testing boards and or promotions board information is not yet available, then why did you bring it up? :confused:

You tried to use this point as an issue in this thread, yet you seem to have fallen into the same issue. Was something rushed? Was something out of order? Were you ready, yet something changed at the last minute? Was it an accident to release this information early? Or did you mean to release this information and the questions caught you flat footed?

Curious
:asian:

Hi Rich,

The board was brought up in the context of this thread. There is another way for promotions to be earned. This proposed board is one of the possibilities and it precludes the need for students to be the people conferring the honor.

I was designated as a Senior Master, but NOT by any of my students present or past. That distiction came from a 10 member board of GMs at the GOE2. I am not advocating that one needs to have such a panel for all promotions, but in the absence of a system GM because of illness or death, getting the recognition from another GM or two is preferable to having students grant the honor.

If someone is going to be critical of the Symposium Board, that's fine, just wait until the details are available and the purpose is made clear. Neither has occured, yet!

As for acceptence of the rank awarded by others, nothing has changed, it is still an individual decision.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Cruentus

06-06-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
No, I think it was because he passed away before he had a chance to do so. Based on how things were going at the time there was a good chance that I would have been the 1st outside the P.I. promoted to that level.

I haven't had time to read the mess yall made here yet...been busy.

I just wanted to vouch for Tim on this one statement, just to back it up. I was in the "scene" back then, and I can vouch that what Tim says is the truth.

:asian:

Dan Anderson

06-06-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
Based on how things were going at the time there was a good chance that I would have been the 1st outside the P.I. promoted to that level.

Debatable. Verrry debatable.

Yours,
Dan

Dan Anderson

06-06-2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by DoctorB
On the other hand I am already aware of two instructors who have told their students that if they attend the Symposium that they will remove them from their respective programs. Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Yoicks! Double yoicks!! :eek:

Dan

Dan Anderson

06-06-2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
hi folks.

0. this is a great dicussion on modern arnis i had no idea you guys had so many different groups.

1st. In modern arnis it seems everyone wants a higher RANK, some resulting to different methods of attaining them, THEY FAIL TO REALISE THAT THE HIGHEST RANK WESTERNER LEFT BY THE PROF IS 6TH DEGREE now could this have been the reason that he did not promote anybody to 7th???????

2. also in the philippines he has given masters the title of 8th degree. if he followed the japanese ranking structure the title of 8th degree means a high ranking master i.e KENDO.

thanks

terry

Terry,

0. Welcome to the world of Modern Arnis. We have all sorts of groups since the founder passed away. To name a few: WMAA (Tim Hartman), IMAF (Jeff Delaney), IMAF, Inc. (Randi Shea), WMAC (Kelly Worden), MARPPIO (Remy P. Presas), IEAA (Jerome Barber), American Modern Arnis (Tom Bolden) and the most wonderful American Modern Arnis practitioner alive (myself :D ).

1. is impossible to answer because the only one who could answer that question isn't around to do so.

2. Don't know, can't say. You'd have to check with someone over there who is 8th or higher.

Yours,
Truly the last of the good guys, Dan Anderson

Dan Anderson

06-06-2003, 06:15 PM

If you guys really want something to crab about, I'll do a Choki Motobu and promote myself to 11th Dan and then promote everybody who shows up at the Symposium...for an exhorbitant fee, of course.
:eek::mad: :o :) ;) :p :D :shrug: :asian:

Sorry folks, but everybody is getting soooooooooo worked up about this that I couldn't resist.

Seriously Yours,
Dan Anderson
The Greatest Warrior On The Planet :rofl:

Cruentus

06-06-2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Debatable. Verrry debatable.

Yours,
Dan

Please explain.

Rich Parsons

06-06-2003, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
Please explain.

See Rocky's Last Post. :asian:

Rich Parsons

06-06-2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Rocky
FOr the most part I agree with the Modern Arnis rank thing being all messed up!

However the Remy did promote Master Robert Demott to 7th degree in 1988. I know I was there and it blew my mind. He has half the talent/knowledege of many a blackbelts half his rank!!

But my point is stand back and look at the whole picture. I knew that when Master Hartmans people did what they did he was going to catch hell for it. But he is trying to run an organization (one of the first to be run like an organization) he is trying to do what Remy never could. You may not agree with everything he does but he is out doing what The Profssor wanted, and that is spreadig the art. And as a good business man he is setting up an organization that will be organized in both its way of teaching, and promoting. And if run properly he will be able to make a nice living at it too, which is great.

So instead of just waiting to pounce on people why not step back and look at the whole picture.

Rocky

P.S Some of the so called masters back in the Phillipines are just that "SO CALLED"

Rocky,

I agree with what you say here for the most part :D

Many A time in the 90's when GM RP was at a seminar at Jaye Spiro's Manong (GM) Ted Buot would stop by. Remy would announce publically that if you wanted to be the best Eskrimador, then go train with Manong Buot.

Just another data point to back up what the Rock has said. Not that he needs any backing up ;)

:asian:

Cruentus

06-06-2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
See Rocky's Last Post. :asian:

I see. I didn't catch that.

I think the comment still warrents explaination, though. Why did Dan say that this was debatable? was this because a promotion to 7th degree in the states has already been done with this Demott individual, therefore Tim would not have been the 1st? If that is what Dan ment, AND if Demott has a certificate to back up that 7th degree title, then I can't disagree here.

If, however, Dan was implying that someone else (outside of Demott) would have gotten promoted before Tim to 7th degree, then I think that I might a major issue.

:asian:

Dan Anderson

06-06-2003, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
No, I think it was because he passed away before he had a chance to do so. Based on how things were going at the time there was a good chance that I would have been the 1st outside the P.I. promoted to that level.

Debatable. Verrry debatable. Dan Anderson

Please explain. Paul

Paul,

Very simply, stated, RP never had (or I should say never demonstrated) any rhyme or reason behind Modern Arnis rank promotions done in the states. Anyone with 20 years experience with the man would back me up on that one. It could've been Tim, it could've been me, it could've been Chuck and it could've been (insert your favorite name here) who would've been the first 7th degree outside the PI. Hell, Paul, it could've been you for that matter.

No offense intended to Tim here but for him to think there was a good chance that he would have been the first one is wishful thinking. I apply the same criteria to myself and I got promoted a full 8 years before Tim. Not while RP was alive was there any kind of prediction behind rank promotions, especially in the upper levels.

The closest thing he had to any kind of method was in his first book and he didn't follow that. He didn't. Look at the promotions of the various upper levels over the last decade and you tell me if you can find any A-B logic.

Yours,
Dan

moromoro

06-07-2003, 01:22 AM

However the Remy did promote Master Robert Demott to 7th degree in 1988.

Is this true?????

what happened to this guy????/

Rocky

06-07-2003, 09:42 AM

What happen to Robert Demott???

If, however, Dan was implying that someone else (outside of Demott) would have gotten promoted before Tim to 7th degree, then I think that I might a major issue.

Well he probably relizes now that his skill's as an Arnis instructor are no where's near what he once thought they were, Hopefully. He played the political game with Remy and lost. He had a few very successful schools and was one of the first people to bring Remy in to do seminars, not just in Michigan but in the U.S back in the 70's when I first met Remy. I believe Robert may be Jim ( me soooo old ) Power's first instructor, Jim???? however Jim has long passed Robert's ability, as has Tim Hartman. ( unless Robert has been doing some serious training I don't know about, but he was a TKD guy mostly )

I believe the debate between Tim or Dan getting the next 7th (active) is really a waste of time!!! The truth is probablly more like which ever one didn't piss Remy off for some reason would have probably gotten it first :rofl:

Just think if I wouldn't of pissed Remy off I could be in the middle of all this termoil.:rofl: I was promoted to 5th back in 1988 or 89, man you guys get all the fun.

Paul wrote:

AND if Demott has a certificate to back up that 7th degree title, then I can't disagree here.

Paul please don't put so much stock into certifacates , Remy promoted many, many, people without certicates!!!!. I think this may have been a tool to use against them later if they pissed him off. I personally do not have a 3rd degree blackbelt certificate, all I have is a picture of his signature on my hand that said Rocky, Lakan Tatlo with Remy's signature. And the testing was done while flying from Norway to Germany in 1985. In fact I have never tested in the traditional fashion in front of Remy since then. And since you train with Manong Ted just ask him how Remy really felt about my ability. Remy use to love to watch me and Ted training back in the early to mid 80's, it reminded him of home and his younger days. Except Remy could never get Abcedario down, I tried a dozen time to show it to him, I know that alot of the new stuff he taught you guys in the last 10 years though came from watch some of the teaching stucture Manong Ted had. See I am about to let you in on another little secret, SSHHH don't tell anyone, Remy was pre Abcedario when training wit hGreat Grand Master Bacon, so he didn't know Abcedario. Now remember don't tell anyone;)

Rocky

Dan Anderson

06-07-2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Rocky
I believe the debate between Tim or Dan getting the next 7th (active) is really a waste of time!!! The truth is probablly more like which ever one didn't piss Remy off for some reason would have probably gotten it first.
Rocky

Rocky,
You dog! You swine! You beast! You are soooooooo on the money! Where in the hell do you come off telling the truth, for crying out loud!?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Pardon me, I need to go off an cry somehwere.

Tearfully yours,
Dan

Rich Parsons

06-07-2003, 01:55 PM

Cruentus

06-07-2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Paul,

Very simply, stated, RP never had (or I should say never demonstrated) any rhyme or reason behind Modern Arnis rank promotions done in the states. Anyone with 20 years experience with the man would back me up on that one. It could've been Tim, it could've been me, it could've been Chuck and it could've been (insert your favorite name here) who would've been the first 7th degree outside the PI. Hell, Paul, it could've been you for that matter.

No offense intended to Tim here but for him to think there was a good chance that he would have been the first one is wishful thinking. I apply the same criteria to myself and I got promoted a full 8 years before Tim. Not while RP was alive was there any kind of prediction behind rank promotions, especially in the upper levels.

The closest thing he had to any kind of method was in his first book and he didn't follow that. He didn't. Look at the promotions of the various upper levels over the last decade and you tell me if you can find any A-B logic.

Yours,
Dan

I understand what you are saying. I have to agree that there often was no rhyme or reason with Professors rank structure.

I will attest, however, that there WAS a level of structure with Tim's earned ranks. The one thing that seemed consistant to me was the time frame between black belts. There was no hurried promotion, or 2 or 3 degree "jumps" with Tim, as there often were with others. None of Tim's promotions were granted due to some political circumstance, either. Tim tested for all but 1 of his ranks, but each rank was earned, regardless. I don't think anyone can, or should even try to take this away from Tim.

Having said that, we must also understand that Tim was the highest ranking person who was ACTIVE WITH PROFESSOR PRESAS in the last few years of his life. Sure, there were other high ranked people, such as yourself, Rocky, Kelly Worden, etc., but due to circumstances, most "high ranked" people were not actively training with Professor at the time around his death. I am not rebuking these people for not being "active," I am not saying that these other high ranked people don't have a piece of the art, and I am not saying that these other high ranked people aren't skilled.
SO, NOBODY GO THERE. But I am saying that most of his high ranked students, 4th degree and up, were not actively training with professor. We had some (not all, for a few were promoted when Remy got sick) of the MOTTS who where 4th and 5th degrees, a couple non-MOTTS who were 4th and 5th, and then we had Tim who was a 6th degree. I'll repeat it again so everyone understands: TIM....HIGHEST ACTIVE RANK....FROM ABOUT 1998 ON; Now that we have cleared that up.....

Being that Tim was consistantly promoted about every 3 years, was considered Remy's "american" son, and he was the most active 6th degree during the most recent time frame, it is only logical and safe to assume that if Remys health hadn't of failed, Tim would have been promoted to 7th, as scheduled, about a year after Remy's passing. This just seems to be the most probable thing that would have occured.

Now, could a 5th or another 6th have decided to come on the scene all of a sudden to jock for a 7th degree promotion before Tim, had professor stayed alive for another year? Sure, this is possible. Anything is possible. But I don't think that any 5th or 6th who wasn't active should fool themselves into thinking, "yea, I could have visited and trained a few times with the old man, and he would have given me my 7th." There is no evidence to support this kind of thinking. Could some freak thing have occured to prevent Tim from getting his 7th? Yes.....and it did; the man died.

So, I maintain that THE MOST PROBABLE THING that would have occured had Professor been in good health was that Tim would have been promoted to 7th in 03.' Outside of Demott, he would have been the 1st american 7th degree. Tim had said "based on how things were going at the time" he would have been promoted, and I backed him up because I knew how things were "going at the time." You said "verrry debatable." I say "verrry probable," considering the circumstance.

SIDE NOTE: This is not specifically for Dan A., but for everyone. I know that what people are going to do, as often heppends, is that people are going to argue one of 3 things. I am going to debunk these 3 common arguements right now, before they occur.

#1: "In 1989 (or some other date long before professors passing) so-and-so was told such and such."

A lot of people were told a lot of things in the past, but the people who were told these things did not stick around with professor to see these things through. To use an obscure example, If someone was told that they would carry the system in 88,' but parted ways with professor in 89,' then guess what? They are not going to carry the system! Having been inactive, yet living in past glories does not give anyone anykind of credability.

#2 "I was told in 99' that I would be (or was) professors (insert word here)."

As many have attested to numerous times, Professor had said many things, without rhyme or reason, that were never really followed up on. But this is why these things NEEDED TO BE FOLLOWED THROUGH, AND FOLLOWED UP ON for them to be valid. People are too quick to pull the "professor said this" or Professor said that" game, yet not only is there no proof, but what was allegedly said was never followed through, and therefore isn't valid! You might of been told that you are a third, or 5th, or 7th degree by professor. You may have even been told this publically. But if you were never recognized as whatever what was "said" to you, or if you never had what was said followed up with a certificate, or proof, at some point, then how valid was what you were told? What is important is what occured, not what you were told.

Example: Rocky was told he was a third degree, and never had a certificate. This is not important. It was followed up with a 4th degree, and 5th degree, and public recognition, however, which makes this valid. This is what was important. All of Tims designations were followed through with the paperwork or validation to prove it. Many other things that were "said" to people, however, were not actually followed through. I don't think that these people have a claim to what was "said" if what was "said" never became a reality.

So if any of you plan on thinking your special because you were "told" something, your arguement has just been debunked.

#3 "So and so was told that they were such and such in professors last days." Don't think that any of your promotions, or anything that you were told for that matter, on Professors death bed should be considered valid. The man had a tumor the size of a grapefruit in his head, and he was sick and dying. Plus, he was stressed out over a bunch of tools who were trying to jocky for positions in his art. He was not making good decisions at this time in his life. Who ever would like to argue that he was in fine condition to make decisions is dilusional. Jeff Delany is the perfect example of my point; that guy would have never been promoted to 5th, given a "master" title, and given the leeway and power to assist Dr. Shea in carrying the IMAF organization if Professor was making good decisions at that time. And the results of that decisions are proof that it wasn't a good one.

Now, for the record, If I was offered rank or status while the man was dying, I would have turned it down. S**t, I turned down rank and status while he was alive and well, so turning down an offer is just something I am capable of, I guess. I wouldn't expect everyone to turn down death bed promotions, but I do expect and demand that people would respect the art enough to not try to use what was said or done on Professors death bed to their own advantage.

So, just because professor said or did something when he was sick, this does not give you any extra leverage. On a final note, if we believe all that was said when Professor was sick, then Tim Hartman would be the head of Modern Arnis above anyone else. That's right, when professor was sick, he offered Tim the system. Tim did the right thing and turned down the offer.

Sorry if I stepped on some toes here, but I only speak the truth as I see it.

:asian:
PAUL

Cruentus

06-07-2003, 02:26 PM

who would've been the first 7th degree outside the PI. Hell, Paul, it could've been you for that matter.

Finally a solution to all our problems. Dan your absolutly right. We should crown me the new head of the system. I'll be the new 10th degree, grandmaster. Just send me 1/10th of your income as an organization fee every month, and I'll be sure to take care of all of our problems!:p

That was what you were really trying to say, huh...right Dan.

:rofl:

On a serious note, despite my previous disertation, I do agree that we shouldn't argue over what "could" have happend. That might prove to be pretty pointless.

PAUL

Dan Anderson

06-07-2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
Sure, there were other high ranked people, such as yourself, Rocky, Kelly Worden, etc., but due to circumstances, most "high ranked" people were not actively training with Professor at the time around his death. I am not rebuking these people for not being "active," I am not saying that these other high ranked people don't have a piece of the art...Sorry if I stepped on some toes here, but I only speak the truth as I see it.

:asian:
PAUL

So Paul,

If you are "not saying that these other high ranked people don't have a piece of the art," then pray tell me, what piece of the art am I missing? I am very interested in your answer.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Cruentus

06-07-2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
So Paul,

If you are "not saying that these other high ranked people don't have a piece of the art," then pray tell me, what piece of the art am I missing? I am very interested in your answer.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan, please don't misunderstand me. I'll qoute myself...

am not rebuking these people for not being "active," I am not saying that these other high ranked people don't have a piece of the art, and I am not saying that these other high ranked people aren't skilled.

I like quoting myself...I think I'll do that more often. :p

I am not discussing the issue of "skill" here. I am not making a judgement on your abilities, or anyone elses. I am simply argueing the fact that Tim was the highest ranked person who was ACTIVE at the time before and at Professors death. That is all I am saying here.

In terms of pieces of the art; we all have our own pieces of the art, and we all are missing pieces as well. Not everyone took away from modern arnis the same things. That is the beauty of getting together and training; we can all discover pieces that we haven't seen or missed from our juniors as well as our seniors. It is just the nature of the constantly evolving and ever-loose structure of Modern Arnis. So don't take what I said about missing pieces an insult.

In terms of what pieces your missing, I think you could answer that question for us better then I could. Do you know all of what Professor was teaching before you started training with him? How about what he taught his students in the PI? How about what he taught his students during the Tapi-tapi era, particularly from 1995 abd beyond? Do you know all of these things? I am going to guess that there are some missing pieces there. This is fine, and doesn't make you any less of a martial artist. It just points to the fact that we all have to work together, that's all. It's like when you've said Dan Anderson Arnis is different then MOTTS arnis, or Tim Hartman Arnis. We all have different pieces, is all.

:cool:

bloodwood

06-07-2003, 10:34 PM

While trying to decide how to relay my thoughts concerning possible high level promotions, in steps Paul and does it for me. I am pretty much in agreement on what Paul and Rocky have just posted. I'm just glad I didn't have to do all that typing.

bloodwood

Datu Tim Hartman

06-08-2003, 03:30 PM

The following can be found at www.archive.org .

http://web.archive.org/web/20001027042323/www.modernarnis.com/news.htm

From the original IMAF site.
Sunday was an early morning as the Black Belts finished taping counter to counter and trapping drills. Gaby Roloff was given the honor of conducting the test in which 38 people participated including 20 testing for Black Belt or higher. Their performance and intensity were incredible and energizing. Following the test Tim Hartman was promoted to the rank of 6th Degree Black Belt making him the highest ranking practitioner in the United States.

That being said, it was MOST LIKELY that I would become the next 7th. This did not say that I would. I don't see the problem here. It was Remy himself that made this statement at the end of testing. It is possible that someone else may have been promoted before me, but if Remy thought I was his number 1 guy in the States, it would be logical that I would PROBABLY be the next to get the 7th.

moromoro

06-10-2003, 05:55 AM

Could you tell us what the test consisted of?????

thanks

Terry

dearnis.com

06-10-2003, 08:16 AM

Standard testing at the camps, when Professor was alive and heading up the program, consisted of demonstrating the various components of the system as asked for. Depending on the time and place the evaluation might consist largely of newer material as covered in the preceeding days, or older material, possibly things that had not been stressed in the previous year or so (to see who kept current on the old stuff; ie basics).
Typical would be demonstration of basic techniques, striking styles, flow, etc.; then on to disarming and reversal techniques, the various incarnations of solo baston semi-sparring/counter for counter/tapi-tapi/insert favorite name for semi-free flow. Also covered would be empty hand techniques and applications, usually the self defense of the time and place (for a while the ground controls were stressed, later they were not emphasized as much). Typically the anyos/forms were demonstrated last.
Typical camp tests ranged between 2 and 4 hours.
Now, everyone please note..
I was NOT in Michigan when Tim tested; I answered as to what a TYPICAL test consisted of during the years I attended camps (94-2001) while Professor was alive.
Also note that, especially with higher level students, Professor's evaluation was based on observation throughout the camp... Could you teach? Did you get on the mat and get involved? were you too good to adopt a first-timer, or would you take responsibility for ensuring that a beginner had a positive experience and left the camp a better martial artist. How did you do when Professor pulled you aside to "play" for a few minutes; how did you do as an uke.
What people seem to forget is that RP had a gift for knowing and remebering his various students, and not much that went on on the floor missed his attention, whether he showed it or not.
Chad

Guro Harold

06-10-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by dearnis.com
What people seem to forget is that RP had a gift for knowing and remebering his various students, and not much that went on on the floor missed his attention, whether he showed it or not.
Chad

So true!

DoctorB

06-10-2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by bloodwood
People put out questions about this promotion board that should be answered by DrB but instead norshadow answers.

VERY INTERESTING!!!

Because Norshadow answered some questions does not mean that he answered them correctly. He is speculating as are most of you. I will answer the promotions questions in due time. I am looking at ALL of your posts and there have been several good ideas that will try incorperate.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-10-2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Yes I would like to get the answers from the organizer. If he was not ready to have the issue discussed, ten it should not have been mentioned.

Unless, he was trying to get public feedback, without asking for it? :confused: :rolleyes:

Still waiting for answers
:asian:

Actually I was not looking for feedback, but since people are going to post without having all of the facts from me, I should at least read their comments, shouldn't I? A couple of good points were raised and they need to be considered.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-10-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
You have your opinion, we have ours. The biggest reason that people are going to complain about this is that it was the 1st promotion to 7th degree since Remy's passing.

You are right, I have an opinion, however, I also know of some comments posted on another forum that did not concern itself with whether or not Remy was alive or dead. They simply were discussing the issue of students ranking/promoting their instructors. I would be happy to post a couple if you are interested in reading them. It was a general discussion and not aimed specificly at the WMAA, because of the way the opening question was framed.

Jwerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-10-2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
No, I think it was because he passed away before he had a chance to do so. Based on how things were going at the time there was a good chance that I would have been the 1st outside the P.I. promoted to that level.

Please let me remind everyone that Guro Douglas Pierre is an American and he was awarded an 8th degree by Professor. The Presas' Remy Jr., Marty Ann and Demetrio, have seen the certificate and can vouch for it's validity.

Not taking anything away from you, Tim, but this is all speculation on your part and the fact that Douglas was promoted makes your point moot . You are talking 7th and Douglas is already an 8th.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-10-2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Rocky
What happen to Robert Demott???

Well he probably relizes now that his skill's as an Arnis instructor are no where's near what he once thought they were, Hopefully. He played the political game with Remy and lost. He had a few very successful schools and was one of the first people to bring Remy in to do seminars, not just in Michigan but in the U.S back in the 70's when I first met Remy. I believe Robert may be Jim ( me soooo old ) Power's first instructor, Jim???? however Jim has long passed Robert's ability, as has Tim Hartman. ( unless Robert has been doing some serious training I don't know about, but he was a TKD guy mostly )

I believe the debate between Tim or Dan getting the next 7th (active) is really a waste of time!!! The truth is probablly more like which ever one didn't piss Remy off for some reason would have probably gotten it first :rofl:

Just think if I wouldn't of pissed Remy off I could be in the middle of all this termoil.:rofl: I was promoted to 5th back in 1988 or 89, man you guys get all the fun.

Paul please don't put so much stock into certifacates , Remy promoted many, many, people without certicates!!!!. I think this may have been a tool to use against them later if they pissed him off. I personally do not have a 3rd degree blackbelt certificate, all I have is a picture of his signature on my hand that said Rocky, Lakan Tatlo with Remy's signature. And the testing was done while flying from Norway to Germany in 1985. In fact I have never tested in the traditional fashion in front of Remy since then. And since you train with Manong Ted just ask him how Remy really felt about my ability. Remy use to love to watch me and Ted training back in the early to mid 80's, it reminded him of home and his younger days. Except Remy could never get Abcedario down, I tried a dozen time to show it to him, I know that alot of the new stuff he taught you guys in the last 10 years though came from watch some of the teaching stucture Manong Ted had. See I am about to let you in on another little secret, SSHHH don't tell anyone, Remy was pre Abcedario when training wit hGreat Grand Master Bacon, so he didn't know Abcedario. Now remember don't tell anyone;)

Rocky

Point well stated Rocky and this is why I have not made the rankings that someone has an issue for the Symposium. It also points to why a Testing Board at the Symposium could be benifical. Some people have been caught in the political buzz-saw of "Modern Arnis Politics" as instigated by Professor, for his own reasons.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Cruentus

06-10-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by DoctorB
Please let me remind everyone that Guro Douglas Pierre is an American and he was awarded an 8th degree by Professor. The Presas' Remy Jr., Marty Ann and Demetrio, have seen the certificate and can vouch for it's validity.

Not taking anything away from you, Tim, but this is all speculation on your part and the fact that Douglas was promoted makes your point moot . You are talking 7th and Douglas is already an 8th.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Wow. All kinds of promotions are coming out of the woodwork now.

When did this happend?

Rocky

06-10-2003, 03:43 PM

Look, for those that seem to have their panties in a bunch with Tim's rank or his promotion, let me ask you this? Do you train with him? Do you think he is any better or worse sice the promotion, don't you realize that for the most part anything over 4th in most arts is honorary, its more about understanding how to pass on techniques to other, its about ones ability or work in spreading an art and opening doors to new potential FMA practioners, helping others to understand this little slice of Filipino culture, we are lucky to have. Some of you guys act like now that he is a 7th degree that he now must be invincable, far superior to any other practioner. If rank intimidates you that much I would hate to see what would happen to you if you were confronted by an old time fighter!!! Damn I hope you are wearing your depends!!

If you have a brain that is anything bigger than a BB in a boxcar, then you know that you train with someone for their teaching abilities not their rank, and Tim has always, even when he was a brown belt had good people skills and the ability to pass things on to others.

Rocky

dearnis.com

06-10-2003, 04:03 PM

don't you realize that for the most part anything over 4th in most arts is honorary, its more about understanding how to pass on techniques to other, its about ones ability or work in spreading an art and opening doors to new potential FMA practioners, helping others to understand this little slice of Filipino culture, we are lucky to have.

Wow. Very insightful Rocky, but you may be in trouble for introducing some reason to the thread.

If you have a brain that is anything bigger than a BB in a boxcar, then you know that you train with someone for their teaching abilities not their rank, and Tim has always, even when he was a brown belt had good people skills and the ability to pass things on to others.

Essentially the reason I came on board with the WMAA. Tim's rank is of no concern to me; the fact that he can structure an organization that provides a good growth environment for the art is.
Chad

Dan Anderson

06-10-2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Standard testing at the camps, when Professor was alive and heading up the program, consisted of demonstrating the various components of the system as asked for. Also note that, especially with higher level students, Professor's evaluation was based on observation throughout the camp... Could you teach? Did you get on the mat and get involved? were you too good to adopt a first-timer, or would you take responsibility for ensuring that a beginner had a positive experience and left the camp a better martial artist. How did you do when Professor pulled you aside to "play" for a few minutes; how did you do as an uke.
What people seem to forget is that RP had a gift for knowing and remebering his various students, and not much that went on on the floor missed his attention, whether he showed it or not.
Chad

Terry,

Chad's description of testing is pretty accurate from all the boards I was on.

Dan

Dan Anderson

06-10-2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by DoctorB
Please let me remind everyone that Guro Douglas Pierre is an American and he was awarded an 8th degree by Professor.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Damn! You learn something new every day! Tim, Kelly and I will have to learn to live with competing for the highest ranked white boy in Modern Arnis.

Yours,
The Portland Ghost

PS - Before anybody gets their knickers in a twist...ahhhh, to hell with it. Take offense if you want to. :D

Dan Anderson

06-10-2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Rocky
1. Look, for those that seem to have their panties in a bunch with Tim's rank or his promotion, let me ask you this?

2. Do you train with him?

3. Some of you guys act like now that he is a 7th degree that he now must be invincable, far superior to any other practioner.

4. If you have a brain that is anything bigger than a BB in a boxcar,

Rocky

Rocky,

1. I wear briefs, not panties!

2. Thank goodness, no!

3. Sorry, anybody who drinks Pepsi is not invincible to a Classic Coke man.

4. Rocky, watch what you say to us BB's. We take offense very easily.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Irritatedly yours,
Dan (calm under stress) Anderson

thekuntawman

06-10-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Damn! You learn something new every day! Tim, Kelly and I will have to learn to live with competing for the highest ranked white boy in Modern Arnis.

Yours,
The Portland Ghost

PS - Before anybody gets their knickers in a twist...ahhhh, to hell with it. Take offense if you want to. :D

isnt docB one of the highest ranking "white boys" in modern arnis too?:D

i know i know, i will stop being nosy!

Dan Anderson

06-10-2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
isnt docB one of the highest ranking "white boys" in modern arnis too?:D

i know i know, i will stop being nosy!

Kuntawman,

We all be white boys in the eyes of our detractors, y'all. :rofl:

Yours,
Still pale and wonderful,
Dan Anderson

Datu Tim Hartman

06-10-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
isnt docB one of the highest ranking "white boys" in modern arnis too?:D

i know i know, i will stop being nosy!

He's a 3rd threw Remy.

Cruentus

06-10-2003, 07:02 PM

Some of you guys act like now that he is a 7th degree that he now must be invincable, far superior to any other practioner.

All I have to say is....

Tim before 7th:

:karate:

And Tim after 7th:

:apv:

NUFF' SAID!!!!

See...who said rank didn't matter?
:p

Cruentus

06-10-2003, 07:05 PM

I'm not so sure who's panties are in a bunch over the issue, but rank is not really important to me.

I just think that it is interesting all the people who are coming out of the woodwork with rank and designations that most people haven't heard of before.

The issue just stirs up a ton of questions, is all!

:cool:

Cruentus

06-10-2003, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
He's a 3rd threw Remy.

He had to throw Remy to get his third?

He must have had a much harder test then anyone I have ever heard of! :rofl:

Sorry.....I'm bored, and trying to avoid getting my work done in my office!:p

Datu Tim Hartman

06-10-2003, 07:21 PM

THROUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now bite me you Bastard!
:toilclaw: :bird: :2xbird: :rtfm: :iws: :flushed: :boxing: :tank:

Dan Anderson

06-10-2003, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
THROUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now bite me you Bastard!
:toilclaw: :bird: :2xbird: :rtfm: :iws: :flushed: :boxing: :tank:

Moderator alert!!!

Not only is Rene' (who I know for a fact to be male...or is a female with a very high testosterone level problem) propositioning another known male (the afforementioned Paul) to engage in a somewhat questionable and very immoral act but he is also questioning whether Paul's parents were actually married and is doing so in a highly offensive manner.

And I am certain that two of the smilies shown are not putting forth the concept that he thinks Paul is #1. Please tell this Renee' person to hold himself in check or else I demand that he be banned. Those of us with fragile sensibilities should not have this sort of vulgarity forced upon us.

Sensitively Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Hey - 50 more posts and I get to be a Black Belt. Groovy.

dearnis.com

06-11-2003, 10:04 AM

great images first thing in the morning after a long night.
thanks Dan. Now I'm offended.

Dan Anderson

06-11-2003, 11:15 AM

Chad,

As a cop I'd expect you to have a thicker skin than that. Buck up or I'll tell Loren.

Yours,
Dan

DoctorB

06-11-2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by thekuntawman
isnt docB one of the highest ranking "white boys" in modern arnis too?:D

i know i know, i will stop being nosy!

It is really amusing to me as well! Oh well, the things that some people do write when hiding behind a keybaosrd and having no factual data to refer back to is always amusing.

Nice post, my Brother-man.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB

06-11-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Renegade
He's a 3rd threw Remy.

And the point of that is? You know that I am not impressed by paper, not even my own. It is a matter of skill and teaching ability. That's why the "Senior Master" designation that I earned at the GOE2 is more valuble to me than any of the numerical ranks that I own.

When a board of 10 GMs reviews your work on the training floor and recommends the title, that is a significant accomplishment and recognition. On the other hand when I left the GOE2 awards dinner and got back to my room, the first question on my mind was how in the hell did GM Chun, Jr. make "Threading the Needle" work so well as a soft style defense? So much for being a senior master. Time to get to wiork on that idea and figure this one out. And I did... it's all in the rotations...

So when I put together the Symposium, I did not pay too much attention to ranks, Modern Arnis or any others. The true test for me is in the ability to do the art and make it "flow". That is where we can seperate those who can talk about the art in a meaningful way from those who can do the art as well as explain it in detail.

For me it is not about rank and paper, it is all about knowledge and execution. 3rd degree, yeah! 6th degree in two other arts? Yeah. And the point of all of that is...?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

dearnis.com

06-11-2003, 03:53 PM

I'd expect you to have a thicker skin than that.

Not on a week I'm off.
Especially after a long night.
:drinkbeer :drinkbeer :drinkbeer :drinkbeer :drinkbeer

not the best time for such an image.

Chad

Rocky

06-11-2003, 06:14 PM

not so sure who's panties are in a bunch over the issue, but rank is not really important to me.

The panties I am talking about Paul are all the people that don't even have anything to do with Tim or his organization. Its like they got nothing better to do. He is doing his thing doing a pretty good job of it and maybe they don't like that, if the truth be known. Any ways it just seems more energy should be spent doing other things, instead of worring about what tim is doing, in his organization, or Dan or who ever. Like I said its just rank he is still the same Tim. If he was making claimes he is the best fighter Remy ever produced or has more training than anyone else ever had with Remy then I would have some issues, But all he is doing is trying to run a well organized organization, and continuing the art taught to him by the Professor.

Rocky

Datu Tim Hartman

06-11-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Rocky
If he was making claimes he is the best fighter Remy ever produced or has more training than anyone else ever had with Remy then I would have some issues

You mean I'm not? Doh! :eek: :waah:

Rocky

06-11-2003, 06:46 PM

You mean I'm not? Doh!

Well in all honesty I'd have to say you are pretty high up the ladder. Now if he had a belt for the highest ranked goofball, or mentally irregular student, you would probably be at least a 9th degree blackbelt.

Of course I have heard you look really nice in your pink lace belt!!! It goes great with your eyes.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Man I crack myself up!!

Rocky

Cruentus

06-11-2003, 07:02 PM

The panties I am talking about Paul are all the people that don't even have anything to do with Tim or his organization.

Ahhhh! Those panties. It is all clear to me now! :D

Datu Tim Hartman

06-11-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Rocky
Well in all honesty I'd have to say you are pretty high up the ladder. Now if he had a belt for the highest ranked goofball, or mentally irregular student, you would probably be at least a 9th degree blackbelt.

Of course I have heard you look really nice in your pink lace belt!!! It goes great with your eyes.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Man I crack myself up!!

Rocky
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

moromoro

06-12-2003, 02:51 AM

know that I am not impressed by paper, not even my own. It is a matter of skill and teaching ability. That's why the "Senior Master" designation that I earned at the GOE2 is more valuble to me than any of the numerical ranks that I own.

a thrid degree only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT!!!!! i thought by the way you talk in the forum that you are one of the highest ranking practitioners in MA in the US.......................

know that I am not impressed by paper, not even my own.

this i agree with this........................but if you TRAIN in arts with this type of ranking structure your comments could lead people to think that this is your excuse for only having a low RANK........

It is a matter of skill and teaching ability.

iam sorry i disagree its not a matter of teaching ability and it never was (eskrima) it has ALWAYS BEEN A MATTER OF FIGHTING ABILITY.............But i have been told that MA is different more a self defence type of system so yes teaching ability could be a factor

and your teaching ability is probably second only to the prof because of your teaching background..........

your right its not about the paper its all about the skill/fight

thanks

Terry

DoctorB

06-12-2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by moromoro
a thrid degree only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT!!!!! i thought by the way you talk in the forum that you are one of the highest ranking practitioners in MA in the US.......................

this i agree with this........................but if you TRAIN in arts with this type of ranking structure your comments could lead people to think that this is your excuse for only having a low RANK........

iam sorry i disagree its not a matter of teaching ability and it never was (eskrima) it has ALWAYS BEEN A MATTER OF FIGHTING ABILITY.............But i have been told that MA is different more a self defence type of system so yes teaching ability could be a factor

and your teaching ability is probably second only to the prof because of your teaching background..........

your right its not about the paper its all about the skill/fight

thanks

Terry

OK Terry,

Let's take you comments point by point.

1. I NEVER claimed any high ranking positions or places in Modern Arnis. Third is fine with me. I want to see skill not paper and some of the "High ranking " people in the art have avoiding coming to the Symposium... their call not mine. If those people
and I were to go on the floor together the rank would be as insignificant as it would be in a combative confrontation.... show me skill not your paper.

2. I do not train for rank nor do I train my students to get rank. It does not bother me to have a third in Modern Arnis. It still costs me the same amount of money to buy a cup of coffee as it does you if we both go to the same store. If people want to
train for and insist on having rank, that is their decision.

There will be no excuses offered by me for having a third degre. That is what I earned before stopped training with Professor , so that is all there is or will be in Modern Arnis - But did my training and skill developement stop? Not at all!!

3. Disagree all you wish and there is no need to be sorry about it.
The USA and the Philippines are very different cultures and there are very different needs in some parts of those cultures. Training for fighting as a sport is quite different from training for self defense in this culture.

The latter by formal legal structutres in the USA means that it is very likely that you have to explain what you did and why you did it in an adversal situation known as crimainal court. And you have better hire the very best lawyer that you can to keep you out of jail.

Duelling was outlawed in the early 1800's here in the USA, but that only occured a couple of decades back in the Philippines. There is no straight line compasision between the two cultures in terms of fighting. You will do what you have to in RP and I will do what I have to here in the USA. No right, no wrong, just the reality of different times, different places and different needs.

4. Second only to Professor? Ok, if you say so, but that has never been my contention or ambition. We each have our own styles and while I admire his approach and understand the foundations that suport it, I have gone about teaching the art from my own perspectives. He was a fantastic teacher.

5. Yes it is all about skills and we need both teaching and fighting skills. Where would any of us be if it were not for teachers? Are all of the best fighters great teachers or even adquate at teaching? I went with my strength - teaching, and in the process added to my fighting skills. Others put fighting first, that is what works for them, based on what their life needs are.

I can respect your point of view without having to agree with you on every point. I see things in cultural contexts and if I were to move to the Philippines I would have to change some of my beliefs and attitudes. These changes would move me closer to you points of view out of necessity.

The reason why Professor approved and suported my college training program was because he saw it in the context of America AND because it put a premium on the art and beauty of Arnis.

The fact that I included a very strong self defense component, based on the needs of Americans in general and New York State residents in particular showed him that I could be flexible and adaptive with his art. Now a segment of that art was mine. But I have never forgotten nor tried to hide my association with and indebtedness to him. Yes we parted company. formally, organizationally, but we still talked from time to time.

Third degree is fine. I earned it and at that time, that is all I should have had. Third degree is neither an insult nor a virtue, it simply is what it is and others have more... so what?

Jrome Barber, Ed.D.