FYI. Kukkiwon Regulations and Fees

[abzack]

I have seen alot of comments about the high fees charged by Kukkiwon. I live in Seoul, Korea and we do not pay such high fees. If you are tested by the appropriate grade instructor, fill out the application for dan grade and get the instructor to sign it. Then you mail it in and they deliberate (I believe this means they check the Dan certificate of the instructor who signed your application) and then issue you Dan/Poom certificate. 1st Dan costs $70 at Kukkiwon.
I have added links to the Kukkiwon site (English) for the International Division that lists the fees for each Dan/Poom grade, and also to the Articles for Regulation For Promotion Tests. These are the minimums that Kukkiwon requires.

Regulation For Promotion Tests (http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/promotion/simsa_eng1.asp?div=5)
International Division (Fee Schedule) (http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/promotion/interd_eng.asp?div=5)

Korean Martial Arts Dojang (http://www.hoshinsool.tk/)

[arnisador]

Are fees set by country, perhaps?

[Zepp]

My guess is that fees are set by the regional organization. For someone in Korea, you probably deal directly with Kukkiwon, so the middle men who want their cut aren't an issue.

In the US, the WTF doesn't seem to exert quality control of any kind, either in teaching standards or in business practices.

But, since I'm not in the WTF, I could be wrong.

[Disco]

No your right. That's where all the horror stories about over the top fee's come from. The "average" 1st Dan fee being charged by WTF Instructors in America is around $350. Have heard stories of fee's as high as $1000.

The only standard that the Kukkiwon has control over are the forms.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zepp
My guess is that fees are set by the regional organization. For someone in Korea, you probably deal directly with Kukkiwon, so the middle men who want their cut aren't an issue.

In the US, the WTF doesn't seem to exert quality control of any kind, either in teaching standards or in business practices.

But, since I'm not in the WTF, I could be wrong.
WTF or ITF, it's most likely you get your ranks from Kukkiwon.

Yes, it's the middle man/men who want their cut. Quality control comes at higher ranks. That's why you see so many young 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dans but hardly any 4th or 5th dans, unless they get their ranks from another organization.

[MartialArtist]

Duk Sung Son is a well-known guy in the Northeast region of the US and is known for his contributions in Korea. I'm betting he got his 9th dan from Kukkiwon.

[Disco]

:confused:

[Kodanjaclay]

Friend,

I understand why you think this:

<<Duk Sung Son is a well-known guy in the Northeast region of the US and is known for his contributions in Korea. I'm betting he got his 9th dan from Kukkiwon.>>

But it is absolutely untrue. You are talking about someone who was a grandmaster before the formation of the KKW. Many of the older masters were offered KKW certification when the KKW was formed, but some of them rejected it, among them Lee, Yong Woo, President of the JungDoKwan.

Grandmaster Son does not practice KKW TKD. Kukkiwon only recognizes the Taegeuks for promotion. Grandmaster Son does not teach those forms. In fact they are new, and I'm not even sure they were in active use when Grandmaster Son came to the US.

I hope this helps.

[Kodanjaclay]

<<WTF or ITF, it's most likely you get your ranks from Kukkiwon.
>>

This too is an error. The ITF is not even based in the ROK. Nor do they practice the same style of martial art.

The WTF is the international liaison to the IOC that each country's NGB is a member of. The WTF does not issue rank, nor can any individual be a member of the WTF. Countries are members of the WTF, which propagates TKD as dictated by the KKW. This is facilitated to the various member nations via their NGB. KKW is what is commonly called Olympic Taekwondo. Although ITF TKD only originated in 1955 with the founding of the OhDoKwan or Chung Han TKD, it is considered "traditional" TKD. Two totally different animals. Actually, the ITF and WTF can be considered rivals. For more information on the US NGB, www.ustu.org.

[Kodanjaclay]

Disco,

You are quite right. KKW rates are actually quite low, as are the rates of the NGB. However, when one considers that any school has overhead and a bottom line, it is easy to see why the rate is increased, though sometimes that is abused by unscrupulous instructors.

I don't know of anyone who would have an issue paying $125 or even $300 to support a school. I have issues when one has to sign an EFT agreement for a rank that should be reaosnable and yet, they pay a grand for a chodan. That is a tad ridiculous.

[Disco]

Master Clay. If no one has said this, welcome to MT. I see that you list the USTW. I've been out of the political scene for awhile, when did they form and the obvious question is why? Must have been a big rift in the USTU. Again, welcome
:asian:

[Kodanjaclay]

The USTW is headed by Grandmaster Ahn. I am a voting member and support the organization as they are a non-profit organization existing to attempt reform in the martial art and sport of Taekwondo.
I am also affiliated with the US National Taekwondo Association because I believe in their mission of accepting all styles of legitimate Taekwondo. I define legitimate in the same manner as many of our Korean counterparts. I do not consider "American styles" to be legitimate TKD, though they are legitimate pugilistic systems intrinsically.

My personal preference lies in old style TKD. I have trained and certified in both MDK and CDK, though these days I draw less of a distinction between system, and the "Do."

No one has yet welcomed me, but thank you very much. I am always available to do what I can to help those who chose the same path I did.

With warmest regards, I am sincerely

[Kodanjaclay]

Oh, I almost forgot...

Master is an honorific which was bestowed upon me. As far as my worth in this matter, I am still unsure, but I feel that one day I'll figure it out.

At any rate, it is not part of my name. My name is Frank. Please feel free to call me that, though I do appreciate the formality.

Regards,

[Zepp]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Duk Sung Son is a well-known guy in the Northeast region of the US and is known for his contributions in Korea. I'm betting he got his 9th dan from Kukkiwon.

Mr. Clay has already answered this one, but I thought I might add something. I was told that when Kukkiwon was founded, Mr. Son was told by the-powers-that-were that Tae Kwon Do was a sport, and that they had no interest any longer in the style that he was teaching. (This story is 3rd or 4th hand, so feel free to correct me if you know differently.)

Oh yeah. Mr. Clay, for the sake of not having said it before, welcome to MT. :D

[A.R.K.]

Frank, you have my welcome as well. Good information.

:asian:

[DAC..florida]

Mr. Clay,

I can see that you will be an addition to this forum!
Welcome to martial talk.
:asian:

[Kodanjaclay]

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate the warm welcome from you folks.

DAC, whereabouts in FL are you? My residence is in the PCola area although I am in NJ. I am a consultant, so I travel quite a bit.

[Disco]

DELETE

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
Thank you. I sincerely appreciate the warm welcome from you folks.

DAC, whereabouts in FL are you? My residence is in the PCola area although I am in NJ. I am a consultant, so I travel quite a bit.




I live in clearwater fl. about 20 min. south of Tampa!
:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
<<WTF or ITF, it's most likely you get your ranks from Kukkiwon.
>>

This too is an error. The ITF is not even based in the ROK. Nor do they practice the same style of martial art.

The WTF is the international liaison to the IOC that each country's NGB is a member of. The WTF does not issue rank, nor can any individual be a member of the WTF. Countries are members of the WTF, which propagates TKD as dictated by the KKW. This is facilitated to the various member nations via their NGB. KKW is what is commonly called Olympic Taekwondo. Although ITF TKD only originated in 1955 with the founding of the OhDoKwan or Chung Han TKD, it is considered "traditional" TKD. Two totally different animals. Actually, the ITF and WTF can be considered rivals. For more information on the US NGB, www.ustu.org.
ITF TKD is not based in ROK, I never said it was. Gen. Choi was from North Korea, but moved his operations to Canada.

Today, most ITF instructors do get their rank from Kukkiwon. For instance, Wan Sup Kim (8th dan) of Chicago has his rank from Kukkiwon, even though he's ITF. His younger son is a collegiate champion in sport sparring which is headed by another organization and still holds a Kukkiwon rank.

And yes, WTF and ITF are rivals. But although the WTF and Kukkiwon are sometimes synonymous, that is not always true. Kukkiwon has its own duties with primarily issuing rank. The branches of WTF such as the IF do most of the other work.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
Friend,

I understand why you think this:

<<Duk Sung Son is a well-known guy in the Northeast region of the US and is known for his contributions in Korea. I'm betting he got his 9th dan from Kukkiwon.>>

But it is absolutely untrue. You are talking about someone who was a grandmaster before the formation of the KKW. Many of the older masters were offered KKW certification when the KKW was formed, but some of them rejected it, among them Lee, Yong Woo, President of the JungDoKwan.

Grandmaster Son does not practice KKW TKD. Kukkiwon only recognizes the Taegeuks for promotion. Grandmaster Son does not teach those forms. In fact they are new, and I'm not even sure they were in active use when Grandmaster Son came to the US.

I hope this helps.
That is not an unheard of story. But who issued his rank? Remember, TKD as you see now is a fairly new art and very few people were qualified to give out a 9th dan. Or, could it have been possible he had a rank in a Japanese system?

[fissure]

The Master of the school I teach at has been a friend for a long time. He has asked me to test for my third dan (I have been a second dan for a LONG time!), since he is a friend he will not charge me any fee above that of the Kukkiwon's own cost. The price for a third dan certificate is around 150 dollars. Using this a starting point, it's not hard to see how much money can made charging 500-1000 dollars for testing!:(

[Kodanjaclay]

I just spoke with a good friend of mine who asked the head of the KKW High Dan promotions committee about your statement. The Kukkiwon does NOT issue rank to ITF yudanja unless they are already KKW certified, and have the prerequisite rank. Should you wish more information, please feel free to contact either KKW (I believe their url is www.kukkiwon.kr but I could be wrong.)

Major General Choi was not from the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. He was from the ROF who after being expatriated under the clause of treason, relocated to the DPRK. This is common knowledge in both the TKD world and in the ROK.

Grandmaster Son had his rank issued by Grandmaster Yi, Won Kuk, his instructor and founder of the ChungDoKwan. I am unsure if he recieved rank from KTA; however, I would presume it to be a possibility. By the time KKw was formed, Grandmaster Uhm was head of the CDK. Now there is some confusion in Korea because Grandmaster Uhm is doing some things, and Grandmaster Park, Hae Man others. Some who do not want affiliation with Grandmaster Park, I have heard, have gone to the JungDoKwan, a related school, which is headed by Yi, Yong Woo who is head of the KKW high dan promotions committee.

To answer the possibility if he had rank in a Japanese art, I suppose it is a possibility. I don't know. I almost wonder if originally the system went to 5th dan, like in Shotokan, and the other ranks added later... Maybe if I get a chance I'll ask GM Son. Gm Yi passed away, so I cannot as him.

[cali_tkdbruin]

Kodanjaclay,
Welcome aboard to the MT board sir. I'll be looking to your posts for helpful info., and instruction... :asian:

[Kodanjaclay]

Thank you very much.

[Andi]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
The Kukkiwon does NOT issue rank to ITF yudanja unless they are already KKW certified, and have the prerequisite rank.

Out of interest, what does yudanja mean? Is it a term equivalent to kareteka for TKDers? Or is it a korean instructors term? Hmm. Either way, I've not come across it before...that I can remember!

In fact looking at your username, would I be right in guessing that it's a related term to Kodanja?

[Kodanjaclay]

Andi,

Yudanja simply refers to a dan holder, of any rank. Yugupja is any gup level student. Kodanja is a high ranking black belt, and some use it to mean "master". I prefer to think of it as meaning "advanced white belt".

Hope this helps.

[Damian Mavis]

"Today, most ITF instructors do get their rank from Kukkiwon"

Dude... personally I like you but your insistence in believing and propagating this lie is getting a little annoying. I operate an ITF school, I am a 4th dan International instructor in ITF, I have met thousands of ITF practitioners and hundreds of instructors. NONE OF US GET KUKKIWON CERTIFIED!!!!!! If that one guy got Kukkiwon certified then maybe he is affiliated with both but that seems highly unlikely but it is possible. But that is one guy out of over a hundred thousand! The rest of us do not and have never gotten rank from the Kukkiwon, what you are suggesting is the same as saying I got my fighter jets piloting license at the local DMV. They are totally and completely seperate entitys and cannot certify eachother.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Kodanjaclay]

Right on Damian. One of my old Korean instructors had both; however, he trained in Korea before the split.

ITF Taekwondo is more traditional in it movements, and WTF TKD is more "progressive". It is an undeniable fact that WTF TKD is a sport as sanctioned by President Park in 1961. It is the express mission to promulgate the sport of TKD internationally. ITF TKD is more like TSD in that it is more, for a lack of a better term, "martial artsy". They have different aims and goals. There may be a push since Gen. Choi's death to reunify, but it is doubtful this will happen.

[Andi]

Right, thanks. Yeah, that's exactly what I was after. :D