Traditional Martial Arts Training Secrets

[Matt Stone]

For all the traditionalists out there, let's put together a few explanations for the things the anti-traditionalists pick on so much...

For example -

Horse Riding Stance (or any other stance) training.

Withdrawing the non-striking hand to the hip when striking.

Forms use and keys to breakdown.

Et cetera.

Since I started this thread, I'll get the ball rolling...


Why do you withdraw the non-punching hand to the hip when punching/striking?

Firstly, withdrawing one hand while striking with the other increases the rotation of the hips and upper torso, thereby increasing the speed with which the strike travels, as well as increasing the distance the strike travels, and ultimately resulting in a more potent punch/strike.

Do you fight with one hand on your hip? Only if you have a lot of attitude! :lol:

Hell no you don't fight with your hand on your hip! That's like thinking that Taiji people fight in slow motion!

It is a training tool, no different than many basic methods used for developing a technique.

In forms, the withdrawing hand can be many different things - it can be as simple as increasing the power of the punch. It can be a grab, and elbow strike (with the withdrawing arm), a joint lock, etc. It just depends on the application and what attack you are dealing with...

I will list examples of the other categories listed above later, but first I'd like folks to add their info to the mix...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[MartialArtist]

High Kicks/Jump Kicks

Pretty easy to explain really, and modern science just makes it even better.

First off, athleticism. A combination of balance, speed, coordination, agility, flexibility, timing, and overall body control. You work those. It's like training with a weapon like a sword. Who carries a sword around? Unless you're Morpheus from the Matrix Reloaded, you don't carry a katana around the freeway. Same qualities. All instructors who want their students to be safe won't support the idea of using high kicks a lot if at all, and most people with experience will know when they could at least use them as in a huge oppourtunity. Otherwise...

Modern science. Just pick up on muscle fibers or plyometric training.

[Kingston]

i hope thats not the best you can come up with......:rolleyes:


:ak47: :snipe: :stoplurk: :mp5: :apv: :shock::snipe2:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kingston
i hope thats not the best you can come up with......:rolleyes:


:ak47: :snipe: :stoplurk: :mp5: :apv: :shock::snipe2:
May I ask what exactly you're trying to say?

[Bod]

It's like watching a boxer on a speed ball and expecting him to fight that way.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


...withdrawing one hand while striking with the other increases the rotation of the hips and upper torso, thereby increasing the speed with which the strike travels, as well as increasing the distance the strike travels, and ultimately resulting in a more potent punch/strike.


Hmm. Not Quite. You see, if you withdraw your hand to chamber in a relaxed manner, you will see that the shoulder of the withdrawing hand moves slightly forward. This forward movement of the shoulder is mirrored by the backward movement of the shoulder of the punching hand. Therefore, the withdraw to hip actually decreases the power of the punch. That is why traditional instructors have their students tighten their armpits when they punch- it counteracts the negative effect of the chamber. As for increasing the distance the strike travels, any strike will only travel from its point of origin to the point of focus. This is unaffected by whether you chamber your fist or scratch your ear.

You are totally right on about the other applications of the chambered fist though. There's more here than any of us were taught.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[Jill666]

I'm genuinely puzzled by this concept- never heard this before.

Can you either be more general or more specific about this???

:asian: Thanks

[chufeng]

Randy,

Excellent point...in fact we are instructed to keep the arm tucked in tight...

Jill, assume whatever stance you do when you throw a reverse punch...let it fly and pause at the end of the technique...are you actively pulling your chambered hand in tight to the body (tightening armpit)? If not have some apply pressure to your punching hand and see how stable you are...
Now try it with the chambered hand tight...again, have someone push against your extended fist...you should be more stable...
It's about body mechanics...
Now go throw a few at the heavy bag, you should notice the difference in power with just that simple correction.

:asian:
chufeng

[Jill666]

Got it-

Yup, I do tighten my armpit- just never thought of it that way before. :D

After years of training the elbow strikes, chambering properly is fully ingrained.

What I'm gonna have to do now, of course, is throw a few loose ones at the heavy bag from the horse to prove the rule. :p

Now that leads pretty well into discussion of kiba-dachi or the horse stance. Aside from developing strength in the legs and providing amusement for instructors who like to talk for twenty minutes while keeping their students in a low horse
:angry:
what benefits do instructors here feel it provides?

[KennethKu]

If you withdraw to your hip, you are opening up your face to counterstrike.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Jill666


Now that leads pretty well into discussion of kiba-dachi or the horse stance. Aside from developing strength in the legs and providing amusement for instructors who like to talk for twenty minutes while keeping their students in a low horse
:angry:
what benefits do instructors here feel it provides?
The horse stance doesn't just strengthen the legs. By working out the large muscles (legs), intense horse stance training releases growth hormone (GH) which can aid in your strength development in other areas. And, if you don't contract the anal sphincter while horse stance training, you can also develop the piles! This last part is not generally considered to be a good thing, but I'm not one to cast judgement.:shrug:

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[chufeng]

if you don't contract the anal sphincter while horse stance training, you can also develop the piles

Yamaguchi Gogen was reported to have to sit on a doughnut because of this.


If you withdraw to your hip, you are opening up your face to counterstrike

Imagine for a moment that I am pulling your arm to my hip with the withdrawing hand...


Now that leads pretty well into discussion of kiba-dachi or the horse stance

You would not throw punches from this stance, Jill...
Think about standing side by side with someone and working that right leg behind your opponent as you sink into a horse-riding stance...does that open up some possibilities?

Horse riding stance is often misunderstood because people assume it is a front-on stance...it isn't.

:asian:
chufeng

[Jill666]

Originally posted by KennethKu
If you withdraw to your hip, you are opening up your face to counterstrike.

Of course- this is a training tool only, nobody is going to fight this way. :shrug:

Contracting the spincter occurs pretty naturally when tightening or rasing the pelvis. This focuses your energy and is simply more comfortable especially after the first ten minutes.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
Hmm. Not Quite. You see, if you withdraw your hand to chamber in a relaxed manner, you will see that the shoulder of the withdrawing hand moves slightly forward. This forward movement of the shoulder is mirrored by the backward movement of the shoulder of the punching hand. Therefore, the withdraw to hip actually decreases the power of the punch. That is why traditional instructors have their students tighten their armpits when they punch- it counteracts the negative effect of the chamber. As for increasing the distance the strike travels, any strike will only travel from its point of origin to the point of focus. This is unaffected by whether you chamber your fist or scratch your ear.

While this is all true, in Yiliquan, the punch comes not as a result of the movement of the arms, but from the pressing of the feet against the ground causing a rotation of the hips... It is the rotation of the hips that "causes" the punch to occur - the arm extending is simply a side effect of the actual "punch."

When the rotation is completed, the retracted hand's shoulder is withdrawn, and the withdrawal of the non-punching hand, coupled with the rotation of the hips, speeds up the punch.

At least, that's my understanding of it... I have never been told to tense my armpits, just to squeeze my arm back sharply while rotating my hips powerfully...


You are totally right on about the other applications of the chambered fist though. There's more here than any of us were taught.

And here is where the MMAists who poo-poo forms should jump in and cry foul, since as we all know, forms are no good for teaching you how to fight... :rolleyes: :p

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[sweeper]

Well the argument that forms can't teach you to fight has validity in as much as doing forms and nothing else won't teach you to fight, but that could be said of shadow boxing also.. Forms also probably aren't usefull if you don't know what you are doing.. in that case you probably don't even optimaly ingrain the movement into your "muscle memmory" as diffrent combat movements will have diffrent force emphasis, that is to say if you are trained to think that you are throwing punches from the hip, where as you should also be training to pull someone's arm in to your hip, genneraly the forward motion could be more agressive than nessisary and the reverse motion to lax.. But of course with proper instruction that should all be taken care of.

just a question though, doesn't everyone pull the oposite shoulder back when throwing a punch? I don't think I was ever told to but it seemed to be common sence..

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
While this is all true, in Yiliquan, the punch comes not as a result of the movement of the arms, but from the pressing of the feet against the ground causing a rotation of the hips... It is the rotation of the hips that "causes" the punch to occur - the arm extending is simply a side effect of the actual "punch."
This was part of my point, that the foot-knee-hip-waist-shoulder-elbow-wrist-fist connection is what facilitates the power of the punch. The withdrawl of the non-punching fist does not contribute to that power transfer and, if done incorrectly, can cause a slight diminishment of the punch's power.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
The horse stance doesn't just strengthen the legs. By working out the large muscles (legs), intense horse stance training releases growth hormone (GH) which can aid in your strength development in other areas.


Human Growth Hormone response is released by intense exercise as opposed to low intensity exercise.
Stimulating the growth hormone from the anterior pituitary gland will:
1. increase protein synthesis
2. decrease carbohydrate utilization for energy
3. increase the mobolization of stored fat
4. promotoe cell division and cell proliferation

Of course amino acids such as arginine , ornithine, glycine and others are known to have GH properties as well.

Plain English……..any intense exercise will release GH, not just from working the legs.


Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
And, if you don't contract the anal sphincter while horse stance training, you can also develop the piles!

This is actually not true.
There is no need to “pucker up” when doing this stance.

The horse stance like all other stances are “transitional” stance and are never the end of a technique but are found moving from one stance into the next to complete are range of motion while applying the technique.
Many techniques I see go from natural stance to zenkutsu dachi to kibadachi to nekko ashidachi.

(Yiliquan1, there is some Naihanchi Shodan homework for you ;) )

[yilisifu]

If you punch with one hand, the opposite shoulder will naturally draw back. It's a natural human movement.

The idea that drawing the non-punching fist back to the hip leaves your face exposed to attack is pointless. No matter WHERE you draw it back, you'll be exposed SOMEWHERE. Even if you grab with it, you're open SOMEWHERE. If you punch, you're creating an opening.
What counts is whether or not your punch is successful...Better to put 100% into it than only 80% because you don't want to expose yourself.

[chufeng]

This is actually not true.
There is no need to “pucker up” when doing this stance.

The horse stance like all other stances are “transitional” stance and are never the end of a technique but are found moving from one stance into the next to complete are range of motion while applying the technique.

True enough if your talking forms practice...
But I think that the point being made regarding "piles" was in reference to standing in the stance for a period of time. ESPECIALLY when combined with breathing exercises.


:asian:
chufeng

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Human Growth Hormone response is released by intense exercise as opposed to low intensity exercise.
Stimulating the growth hormone from the anterior pituitary gland will:
1. increase protein synthesis
2. decrease carbohydrate utilization for energy
3. increase the mobolization of stored fat
4. promotoe cell division and cell proliferation

Of course amino acids such as arginine , ornithine, glycine and others are known to have GH properties as well.

Plain English……..any intense exercise will release GH, not just from working the legs.
I'm not talking about low intensity exercise when referring to horse stance training. I'm talking about the training that makes your legs SCREAM. And, while any intense exercise will release GH, the large muscles of the legs, given sufficient effort, will release more. That's why lifters will say that heavy squats will help their bench, but heavy bench work doesn't do much for their squats.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[Erkki]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
I'm not talking about low intensity exercise when referring to horse stance training. I'm talking about the training that makes your legs SCREAM. And, while any intense exercise will release GH, the large muscles of the legs, given sufficient effort, will release more. That's why lifters will say that heavy squats will help their bench, but heavy bench work doesn't do much for their squats.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

Stance work is comparatively low intensity, insofar as the muscles of the legs are concerned. Intensity in muscles is usually defined as the amount of tension generated. This tension is what releases GH. Stance training does not generate a high amount of tension (despite what it feels like), unless you isometrically add it in, which you shouldn't do if you want a snowball's chance in hell of holding the stance for any respectable length of time. What makes the legs SCREAM is lactic acid, which is not always an indication of high intensity. You are correct that many lifters will say that squats (heavy squats) will help their bench (among other lifts). The high release of GH is one reason. Another reason is again attributed to the high amount of tension heavy squats generate. This tension radiates to other muscles in the body, especially the core muscles, making them stronger, which in turn helps stabilize the body and make you stronger for other exercises such as bench, shoulder press, etc. Heavy deadlifts are another exercise that accomplish this same feat.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Sorry, I just assumed that everyone else used isometric tension in their stance training routine. I stand corrected.:asian:

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by yilisifu
If you punch with one hand, the opposite shoulder will naturally draw back. It's a natural human movement.

The idea that drawing the non-punching fist back to the hip leaves your face exposed to attack is pointless. No matter WHERE you draw it back, you'll be exposed SOMEWHERE. Even if you grab with it, you're open SOMEWHERE. If you punch, you're creating an opening.
What counts is whether or not your punch is successful...Better to put 100% into it than only 80% because you don't want to expose yourself.

You should place your non attacking hand in the best position (which most of us already know how to, I am sure) for parrying/sweeping the probable counter, regardless of the fact that there is no perfect position. Not to be argumentative, but just because you can't defend every inch of your body, does not mean you should just leave yourself completely open and vulnerable.

Of course every time you punch you create an opening, and that is why your other hand is needed to provide as much cover as possible. Granted there are other things you need to pay attention to too. Of course unless Yiliquan has some methods to throw punches that are fool proof where you do not need to be concerned about counter.

But I suppose this is a moot point, as Jill posted that nobody fights like that. Bad habits ingrained at training can come back to haunt you.

P.S. There are situations where your opponent has been "well softened up" , you can withdraw the other hand all the way back rather safely, to generate more torque in deliverying the KO punch.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by yilisifu
If you punch with one hand, the opposite shoulder will naturally draw back. It's a natural human movement.

The idea that drawing the non-punching fist back to the hip leaves your face exposed to attack is pointless. No matter WHERE you draw it back, you'll be exposed SOMEWHERE. Even if you grab with it, you're open SOMEWHERE. If you punch, you're creating an opening.
What counts is whether or not your punch is successful...Better to put 100% into it than only 80% because you don't want to expose yourself.

Yes, it is a human movement but it does not need to be over exagerated. In training there is going to be reasons for doing techniques certain ways, but the way we excectute our techniques when we need them can be diiferant.

If I put 100% into some rapid fire punching on the mitts, I can honestly say that my hands will never retract backward to my hips.

I beleive that we learn ways to develop power, but once the power is achieved, we should be able to use that power without needing the full range of motion.:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by KennethKu
You should place your non attacking hand in the best position (which most of us already know how to, I am sure) for parrying/sweeping the probable counter, regardless of the fact that there is no perfect position. Not to be argumentative, but just because you can't defend every inch of your body, does not mean you should just leave yourself completely open and vulnerable.

Of course every time you punch you create an opening, and that is why your other hand is needed to provide as much cover as possible. Granted there are other things you need to pay attention to too. Of course unless Yiliquan has some methods to throw punches that are fool proof where you do not need to be concerned about counter.

But I suppose this is a moot point, as Jill posted that nobody fights like that. Bad habits ingrained at training can come back to haunt you.

P.S. There are situations where your opponent has been "well softened up" , you can withdraw the other hand all the way back rather safely, to generate more torque in deliverying the KO punch.

That was a good post. In sparring my hands will flow in between a kickboxers hands and a Wing Chun fighters hands using the centerline and the gates.

My feet will vary, based on my flow, but at all times, no matter what my flow is and where my feet are, I try to minimize my openings or weaknesses.:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by KennethKu
You should place your non attacking hand in the best position ... for parrying/sweeping the probable counter, regardless of the fact that there is no perfect position. Not to be argumentative, but just because you can't defend every inch of your body, does not mean you should just leave yourself completely open and vulnerable.

In Yiliquan, we begin training all techniques at a basic level - strikes are chambered fully, and the non-striking hand is retracted to the hip. As training goes on, the non-striking hand is often retracted to a position along the centerline of the body, roughly in the area of the solar plexus. Later, though it has never lost its importance, the retraction of the non-striking hand is almost nonexistent.


Of course unless Yiliquan has some methods to throw punches that are fool proof where you do not need to be concerned about counter.

Well of course!!! ALL of Yiliquan's techniques are fool proof! :D :lol:


But I suppose this is a moot point, as Jill posted that nobody fights like that. Bad habits ingrained at training can come back to haunt you.

The only real detractors of traditional arts are those who had teachers who actually thought you were meant to fight from a horse riding stance, or that you were to directly oppose an opponent's strike with a rigid block at an unnatural angle, or anything along these lines... They are quick to point out that nobody really fights like that, but the refuse to believe us when we tell them that nobody really fights like that... They are exposing the fraud of traditional arts but we are just making excuses... :rolleyes:

Bad habits come back to haunt you. But the lessons learned, the muscle memory ingrained, from long hours spent punching in a horse riding stance, will come back to help you down the line...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

P.S. There are situations where your opponent has been "well softened up" , you can withdraw the other hand all the way back rather safely, to generate more torque in deliverying the KO punch. [/B][/QUOTE]

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
I'm not talking about low intensity exercise when referring to horse stance training. I'm talking about the training that makes your legs SCREAM. And, while any intense exercise will release GH, the large muscles of the legs, given sufficient effort, will release more. That's why lifters will say that heavy squats will help their bench, but heavy bench work doesn't do much for their squats.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh
Squats - Number 1 Lift for GH

But remember, the amount of gH released from training isn't significant enough to really do a lot of change.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Squats - Number 1 Lift for GH



I like "clean and jerks" better myself.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I like "clean and jerks" better myself.
Ever try them with kettlebells? Strength, cardio, and forearm conditioning in one exercise.;)

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[Erkki]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
Ever try them with kettlebells? Strength, cardio, and forearm conditioning in one exercise.;)

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

Yup. Kettlebells rock!! :D

[MartialArtist]

For gH secretion, the compound movements are the best. However, the squat and the deadlift are the top ones.

The Olympic lifts like the clean and jerk are better for athletes as it's speed strength, not absolute strength. However, one should supplement clean and jerks with snatches, as snatches work more muscles simultaneously in a quicker motion.

[Withered Soul]

If you kick high and as fast as you can in training, you will kick low even faster in combat.

[J-kid]

Well i really dont agree with your methods Yiliquan but what ever floats your boat bro.

:viking1: :viking3: :viking2:

[Matt Stone]

Judo-kid

In what particulars don't you agree?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

There are widely varied training methods available to the martial artist. He/she may choose one of literally thousands of available martial styles, follow one of literally millions of teachers (all of whom have their own interpretation of what they teach, as well as their own method of presenting it).

While there are some techniques that are genuinely useless, we are lucky in that most of them have fallen by the wayside over the years. However, that same formula has ensured that certain methods of training have endured. We refer to them as the "traditional" methods, and all martial styles, young and old, modern and ancient, possess them to some degree.

Similarly to modern protestant Christian churches, though they may at times find themselves at odds with the Catholic church, they owe their existence to Mother Church - without the Catholic church, they would never have been born. Likewise, "modern" martial arts owe their existence to "traditional" arts, and most, if not all, of the so-called "modern" methods of training owe their existence to their traditional forebears. The only real addition that modern arts have to provide to the MA world isn't theirs at all; sports science and medicine have provided understanding of the human body that was previously unknown, but this is not the contribution of modern martial arts, but rather modern science.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[J-kid]

well i believe that chambering your punch is a bad idea because if you train like that you may end up fighting like that and that may get yourself hurt.

Also Horse stance is not a very good fighting stance but as you said you use it for training to what end i do not know.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
Ever try them with kettlebells?

I would but haven't seen any that are heavy enough.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I would but haven't seen any that are heavy enough.
Ironmind Enterprises sells kettlebell handles onto which you can load your plates, so you can make them as heavy as you want.;)

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
Ironmind Enterprises sells kettlebell handles onto which you can load your plates, so you can make them as heavy as you want.;)

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

Kool.........do they have URL?

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Kool.........do they have URL?
www.ironmind.com

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

[chufeng]

JK,


well i believe that chambering your punch is a bad idea because if you train like that you may end up fighting like that and that may get yourself hurt.

Also Horse stance is not a very good fighting stance but as you said you use it for training to what end i do not know.

And you know HOW we train in what way? By your extensive sweaty workouts with us? NOT

As one who is a proponent of grappling, I would think you would love the horse-riding stance...but I see you have no idea HOW it is intended to be used...

BTW, one application of "lunge punch with full chamber of the opposite hand" is a classic Judo throw...

Before criticizing Yiliquan1's method of training...you've gotta dance with him.

;)

:asian:
chufeng

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
Ironmind Enterprises sells kettlebell handles onto which you can load your plates, so you can make them as heavy as you want.;)

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

As if those things weren't heavy enough- :D

I'll take mine straight, thank you.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
well i believe that chambering your punch is a bad idea because if you train like that you may end up fighting like that and that may get yourself hurt.

Also Horse stance is not a very good fighting stance but as you said you use it for training to what end i do not know.
It's all mind-set.

It's pretty easy that even if you do spend a lot of time in a horse stance, doesn't mean you'll fight in a horse stance. If you read up on history, practically nobody fought in a horse stance, especially with the intent of kicking or something in the stance, dating waaayyyyy back.

It's not like that people just train with chambering the punch, or with a horse stance. It's that it is used to supplement what they are learning now. Anyone who has participated in sports knows that training things indirectly, as with the horse stance and jumping, and exaggeration of moves as in chambering the punch, does wonders. Exaggeration of a movement makes it so you get the principle and technique down, so you can use it almost perfectly no matter in what situation you are in. Most people who don't train with some exaggeration sometimes freeze up and forget about the small mechanical things that sometimes makes the technique work.

An example would be any running sport. When one learns proper running technique, whether it be for track, football, soccer, etc. exaggerates movements. Pumping the arms, making good contact with the foot, learning to exert maximum force, etc. It feels awkward at first, because anyone can run, but how many people can run with proper technique? You end up getting slower once you learn proper technique, but later, you'll end up being faster than you were before. Indirect training for runners would be by doing box jumps, squats, depth jumps, stairs, running down a decline, and a whole myriad of exercises.

[KennethKu]

If the situation is such that the opponent is already weakened or "softened" by your previous assault, then you can chamber and not be concerned about telegraphing your punch. Chamberred strikes have more power. Elementary physics at work there.

As for horse stance punching, there are people (eg. JKD & MuayThai people)who don't give a hoot about training that way, and they can punch just fine. OTOH, TKD and KT people as well as others who practice punching in horse stance, never seem to suffer as a result of such practice.

Therefore, arguing about these, is pointless.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Jill666
[B]Of course- this is a training tool only, nobody is going to fight this way. :shrug: ...

Of course, that was just a reminder to the newbies. But it is pointless, I suppose. It wouldn't take anyone a nano second to find out that fighting that way does not pay.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I would but haven't seen any that are heavy enough.

Trust me, I think you would find the 16kg a decent starter, at least for a short time, and then bumping up a notch to the next size would do you just right.

They aren't lifted the same way as regular weights. There is a different approach to the utilization of strenght. Try to see if Joe could work it into the budget somehow to either purchase some of the books/videos, or to even get a seminar done (Pavel goes to Okinawa periodically to train the Marines). I'm not exactly a small guy, but incorporating KB workouts into training, supplementing my KB workout with BB lifts (they aren't mutually exclusive), I can pretty much smoke my own butt within the first 20 minutes - and I mean standing at the door to Vomit City, with another 30 minutes of workout to go...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Funny you should mention Joe........he asked me just last week to think of some things we might need that would fit into the buget......I suggested shin conditioning bi-level sand bag.........now I can add these two my X-mas list too!:boing2:

[Matt Stone]

The kettlebell handles from Ironmind look odd, and I have to say I am partial to the ones from Pavel's website, but they look like a good way to introduce KBs to Zama's gym... $95 for a pair of handles with collars, and all you need to add is the weight. Getting Pavel or another RKC instructor to come down for a seminar would be a good thing to add to Joe's eval at work...

Judo-kid -

I have trained for as long as I have, always training (formally) to withdraw my non-striking hand to my hip. However, when we are practicing the real application of the strikes, we are actually taught not to always withdraw it fully, and I have lately found myself not withdrawing at all (to the point that I feel I need to reemphasize the withdrawal in my practice).

Training kicks and punches from horse riding stance, a forward or back stance (or whatever other folks call them), etc., has never once impeded my ability to throw a technique from whatever position I find myself in...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Training kicks and punches from horse riding stance, a forward or back stance (or whatever other folks call them), etc., has never once impeded my ability to throw a technique from whatever position I find myself in...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Which may be part of the point- to train muscle memory to use stances that work, and to maximize the body's knowlege of balance adjustments from constant training.

I'm learning Ninpo stances and boy- are they different. If you thought the body wasn't meant to stay in kibo-dachi, try the outrageous $h!t Taijutsu does- it looks easy, but isn't. :erg: But it makes sense in the context of the movement from that stance.

[Matt Stone]

Jill666 -

Can you describe your experiences with the stances of taijutsu? When I was in Japan I watched a few classes here and there, and I have to be honest and say that what I saw and what I had demonstrated for me and on me by an alleged Bujinkan shodan didn't seem all that impressive. I am hoping that what I experienced was the exception, not the rule...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[J-kid]

why train in what you are not going to do, it just invites bad habbits.

Like chambering.

[yilisifu]

The training to which Yiliquan 1 was referring involves learning principles and ingraining them in oneself.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
why train in what you are not going to do, it just invites bad habbits.

Like chambering.
Why do NFL football players do ballet?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Why do NFL football players do ballet?


Uuuuh.....to get in touch with their feminine side???:rofl:

[MartialArtist]

Why do the Navy SEALs, the counter-terrorist Delta Force, the British SAS, the South Korean Elite Forces, most of Russia's infantry, etc. meditate under a waterfall, jump around running in snow without a shirt, and and throw knives? It surely has nothing to do with modern combat which is fast, precise tactical movements and sight acquisition with a rifle, not running around like you're a badass.

Why do bodybuilders, who are commonly known as the least graceful people on earth, do ballet?

Judo-kid, there is a difference between developing bad habits and using training tools. It's not like chambering is the main thing taught.

You know what? Did you know that a sprinter's training routine isn't mostly sprinting? Why is that, wouldn't that develop bad habbits?

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
why train in what you are not going to do, it just invites bad habbits.

Like chambering.

Again, Judo-kid, provide me specifics, but more than simply the chambering of a punch. That is simply insufficient to discount TMA training methods in favor of non-TMA methods, based on this one example alone...

Please provide me more details.

For example -

I think MMA training is inappropriate because it spends too much time dabbling in multiple areas, taking skills out of context with their strategic application and use. A kickboxer may have very effective kicking techniques, however those techniques are applied within a very specific and limited rules context. Taken out of that rules context, those same techniques become much less effective. I have heard it said that in Muay Thai, groin shots are considered dishonorable, and the rules of a MT bout specifically prohibit such strikes. Is MT, then, realistic in that context for "street" application? It could be said, then, that MT is not "street" effective, could it not? Similarly, the argument that BJJ/GJJ is a superior art has been countered with questions of its application against multiple opponents. I have yet to see that argument addressed, so it would seem that BJJ/GJJ is not as superior as it is claimed, since its effectiveness against multiple attackers has yet to be proven...

But these arguments are too simplistic, and are providing very isolated examples to discount the entire art's usefulness, or its benefits for training fighting techniques.

So, again, please provide me more than this simple example... I understand that your experience with TMA training is minor, and I'm not trying to ambush you or set you up for failure... I am just trying to draw information out of you, and lead you in the right direction for understanding of certain principles that have been in use for hundreds of years (seemingly effective enough to be transmitted over such a long period of time).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[yilisifu]

If they didn't work, they wouldn't have survived this long...

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

For example -

I think MMA training is inappropriate because it spends too much time dabbling in multiple areas, taking skills out of context with their strategic application and use. A kickboxer may have very effective kicking techniques, however those techniques are applied within a very specific and limited rules context. Taken out of that rules context, those same techniques become much less effective. I have heard it said that in Muay Thai, groin shots are considered dishonorable, and the rules of a MT bout specifically prohibit such strikes. Is MT, then, realistic in that context for "street" application? It could be said, then, that MT is not "street" effective, could it not? Similarly, the argument that BJJ/GJJ is a superior art has been countered with questions of its application against multiple opponents. I have yet to see that argument addressed, so it would seem that BJJ/GJJ is not as superior as it is claimed, since its effectiveness against multiple attackers has yet to be proven...

But these arguments are too simplistic, and are providing very isolated examples to discount the entire art's usefulness, or its benefits for training fighting techniques.

So, again, please provide me more than this simple example... I understand that your experience with TMA training is minor, and I'm not trying to ambush you or set you up for failure... I am just trying to draw information out of you, and lead you in the right direction for understanding of certain principles that have been in use for hundreds of years (seemingly effective enough to be transmitted over such a long period of time).

Gambarimasu.
:asian: [/B]
To be fair, those limitations are present in the sport version of the respective arts. In their self-defence/combat version, the practitioners learn to compensate for those rule limitations.

BJJ never claims to be able to handle multiple attackers. BJJ, as practiced in self defence, does NOT advocate to always go to ground.

MT would sure as hell go for the groin and any other deadly targets, using any rules-breaking dirty technique in the book, when practiced in combat.

Needless to say, we need to compare sport version of TMA (Wushu?) vs sport version of non-TMA, and combat version of TMA vs combat version of non-TMA.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Again, Judo-kid, provide me specifics, but more than simply the chambering of a punch. That is simply insufficient to discount TMA training methods in favor of non-TMA methods, based on this one example alone...

Please provide me more details.

For example -

I think MMA training is inappropriate because it spends too much time dabbling in multiple areas, taking skills out of context with their strategic application and use. A kickboxer may have very effective kicking techniques, however those techniques are applied within a very specific and limited rules context. Taken out of that rules context, those same techniques become much less effective. I have heard it said that in Muay Thai, groin shots are considered dishonorable, and the rules of a MT bout specifically prohibit such strikes. Is MT, then, realistic in that context for "street" application? It could be said, then, that MT is not "street" effective, could it not? Similarly, the argument that BJJ/GJJ is a superior art has been countered with questions of its application against multiple opponents. I have yet to see that argument addressed, so it would seem that BJJ/GJJ is not as superior as it is claimed, since its effectiveness against multiple attackers has yet to be proven...

But these arguments are too simplistic, and are providing very isolated examples to discount the entire art's usefulness, or its benefits for training fighting techniques.

So, again, please provide me more than this simple example... I understand that your experience with TMA training is minor, and I'm not trying to ambush you or set you up for failure... I am just trying to draw information out of you, and lead you in the right direction for understanding of certain principles that have been in use for hundreds of years (seemingly effective enough to be transmitted over such a long period of time).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

The most realistic approach to “testing martial training” is the training that can be trained with the minimal rules, without favoritism to either fighter. The best that we have is mixed martial art and JKD.:D

If your NOT training full contact, then it needs to be something very close and worked up to full contact or else you really don’t know if your techniques really works in ALL situations.

The best technique is nothing if it isn’t practiced with an opponent that comes at you full speed without the limitations of the “classical mess.”:D

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
The most realistic approach to “testing martial training” is the training that can be trained with the minimal rules, without favoritism to either fighter. The best that we have is mixed martial art and JKD.:D

If your NOT training full contact, then it needs to be something very close and worked up to full contact or else you really don’t know if your techniques really works in ALL situations.

The best technique is nothing if it isn’t practiced with an opponent that comes at you full speed without the limitations of the “classical mess.”:D
Hmmmmm...

The "classical mess" was to fight until one fighter is KOed or gave up.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Hmmmmm...

The "classical mess" was to fight until one fighter is KOed or gave up.


Hmmmmmmm, you got it, but "WAS" is the keyward!:asian:

[fringe_dweller]

That brings to mind a question that I've been wondering about recently. In hapkido we do a lot of joint locks and throws as well as strikes and kicks. If I was to spar I would use my strikes and kicks, but I'm more than a little worried about hurting someone - not because our techiques are so lethal, but rather because of my limited experience I wouldn't want to perform it wrong and do some serious damage.

So my question is, when do you introduce a techique into sparring? When you're 100% comfortable with it (as opposed to 100% competent which I'm sure is a whole other matter)?

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
Hmmmmmmm, you got it, but "WAS" is the keyward!:asian:
Business and insurance. Lawyers, politicians, worried mothers. Spoiled kids and people who do what they want. Changing times, a new era.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
That brings to mind a question that I've been wondering about recently. In hapkido we do a lot of joint locks and throws as well as strikes and kicks. If I was to spar I would use my strikes and kicks, but I'm more than a little worried about hurting someone - not because our techiques are so lethal, but rather because of my limited experience I wouldn't want to perform it wrong and do some serious damage.

So my question is, when do you introduce a techique into sparring? When you're 100% comfortable with it (as opposed to 100% competent which I'm sure is a whole other matter)?
There's a general rule of thumb. Once you have PERFECT technique, and know the context of the technique as in (is this supposed to be used after I set it up a certain way or after a strike or what) and performing it X many times. I forgot the number, but I think it was 500-1500 that you have a general idea and have muscle memory and the technique burned into your CNS.

But, some moves, you can just do right away. I add moves when I'm somewhat comfortable with it after trying to get my technique up. If something's wrong, it can mean I'm doing the move wrong, or not doing something else wrong. I also understand that some moves work for others while they don't work for me.

You also have to learn about yourself, what's your learning style? My learning style for takedowns were easy, I was more visual with that. After I saw it, I did it with somewhat good technique. For ground moves, I had to break it down step-by-step, repeat it many times before I got comfortable with it. With strikes, I had to do the move many times.

Anyway, I pretty much use techniques that can be applied easily, swiftly, and things that are learned easily.

[sweeper]

the amount of reps per a given motion to be burned into your CNS differs for each person and each motion, but it isn't simply a nuber of repitions, but also repititions aver time, so someone may do 10,000 reps in their first day but wouldn't remember it a year from than, vs someone doing 30 per a day would (and probably would a year after).

[D.Cobb]

That Karate people like to get hit!

Why else would you fight with your hand on your hip?

--Dave

:rofl:

[Jill666]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
That Karate people like to get hit!

Why else would you fight with your hand on your hip?

--Dave

:rofl:

:rofl: Shhh- that's beside the point. :D