should training in another MA be considered when obataining rank in your own MA

[suicide]

for instance your a 2nd degree black belt in tkd going up for your 3rd degree and you ve been doing a year straight of jujitsu on the side should your instructor take that into consideration as your willingness to advance in your overall MA knowledge ?

or your a shotokan guy doing muay thai and coming up for rank etc. etc. or a judo guy doing american wrestling or a capoera guy doing kickboxing ...

%-}

[Ken Morgan]

I’ve always thought, (assuming you have the appropriate time in), that your grade should only be about what you bring to the floor on grading day. Nothing else should matter IMHO.

[suicide]

i understand that your MA is your MA but with all the cross training and MA stepping into the future - i was wondering if it should be considered ?

[blindsage]

Not generally. Your grading is in the knowledge of and ability to apply the skills of the system you are grading in. If the skills of your cross training happen to help in that, great, but just training in another system has no bearing on whether you are progressing in the first system or not.

[Xinglu]

I would say as far as actual rank, no. What matters for rank is the knowledge that you have in that art.

There are other ways to honor knowledge brought to the table without attaching rank to it.

[still learning]

Hello, NO....yet the other MA training will make you a better MA....

To get promote is to learn your school curriculum...NOT someone elses...

Yet at the same time...depending on your Teachers thoughts? ...it could play a major part of your promotions..!!

NO hard rules here...

like learning to play more than one instruments? ....each will make you grow more....as far as for promotions in one instruments...should base only on the one horn!

....in Martial arts...NO hard rules...each Teacher will have different thoughts, on this...

Aloha,

[Omar B]

You earn rank because you've learned the prescribed material for the previous level in the same art. Your performance in another art is no part of it.

[Makalakumu]

At least in the case of Karate, it is well known that the Sensei's of old would send their students out to train with other Sensei's in order to bring new things into their practice. Yes, this happened during a time before "grading" existed, however, I still think that it matters today. The deepest tradition in karate is on the construction of a multi-disciplinary art where cross training was valued. I personally see no problem with including cross training in grade requirements once a certain level of skill has been achieved. And, if one cares about supporting this decision, I think one can make a strong historical case (at least for karate) to include these requirements.

One only need to go back 100 years to find a time where martial arts journeymen learned from anyone they could and it was ALL still called kara-te (well technically just Te).

[Ken Morgan]

My jodo, niten, kenjitsu and iaido are all complementary to each other. The way you move is very similar, the way you strike with a sword or a jo is similar, its all practice. I feel after training in any of them, I have improved my abilities in all of them. Much of the knowledge is transferable from one to another. However, as they may help me in my core abilities, they are different arts, and I am judged only by what I do on the floor on grading day in the specific art I am grading.

[terryl965]

Grading is base on individual arts, so one does not need to effect the other. One cannot be given rank just because he has time in training he needs to show the skill set to go with it.

[mwd0818]

I don't have to worry about it in a formal setting right now, but I've often thought of requiring black belts at some level to gain proficiency in other arts to progress to higher levels in Kempo. It almost wouldn't matter what really, as I have mentioned previously, 20 years in Kenpo and then studying jiu-jitsu for 2 years provides you the chance to take that 2 years of JJ to reassess 20 years of Kempo. It's a great way to look at and grow in the art.

In that specific case, I can see it being valuable, but it would be a clear requirement at the start of that rank. Otherwise, simply because one has skill in another art does not mean anything to the current art - other than additional ability and skill in martial techniques in general. When I have tested students for rank in Kenpo, their previous skills are noted, but I am testing them in Kenpo, not TKD, JJ, etc. Also, it would not be fair to award a higher rank and let them teach Kenpo when really they are teaching TKD with a smattering of Kenpo they learned from me.

[Xinglu]

I don't have to worry about it in a formal setting right now, but I've often thought of requiring black belts at some level to gain proficiency in other arts to progress to higher levels in Kempo. It almost wouldn't matter what really, as I have mentioned previously, 20 years in Kenpo and then studying jiu-jitsu for 2 years provides you the chance to take that 2 years of JJ to reassess 20 years of Kempo. It's a great way to look at and grow in the art.

In that specific case, I can see it being valuable, but it would be a clear requirement at the start of that rank. Otherwise, simply because one has skill in another art does not mean anything to the current art - other than additional ability and skill in martial techniques in general. When I have tested students for rank in Kenpo, their previous skills are noted, but I am testing them in Kenpo, not TKD, JJ, etc. Also, it would not be fair to award a higher rank and let them teach Kenpo when really they are teaching TKD with a smattering of Kenpo they learned from me.

Yes, and it is a great way to understand your base art more. :) I would have no problem if this was a requirement for a dan ranking it helps ensure diversity and greater understanding in the art!

[Phoenix44]

No.

From what I've seen, previous training usually makes you more proficient more quickly in the new art--but still, it's your proficiency in the new art that should determine rank.

[Seth T.]

The biggest problem with the idea of crosstraining being considered during grading is that the person/people grading you may not have the experience or ability to know whether the extra techniques/material you are demonstrating is good or not.

For example, if you were being graded for Tae Kwon Do, by someone who has only trained in Tae Kwon Do, and you performed a cartwheeling kick you learned in Capoeria. The person grading you might find it interesting, but wouldn't be able to judge its merit outside of the TKD terms that they are operating in.

[Xinglu]

The biggest problem with the idea of crosstraining being considered during grading is that the person/people grading you may not have the experience or ability to know whether the extra techniques/material you are demonstrating is good or not.

For example, if you were being graded for Tae Kwon Do, by someone who has only trained in Tae Kwon Do, and you performed a cartwheeling kick you learned in Capoeria. The person grading you might find it interesting, but wouldn't be able to judge its merit outside of the TKD terms that they are operating in.

Ah but if you achieve your BB in the other art, then the merit of what you know is being determined by those ranking you and not the grader. For example say as part of your 4th dan requirement is to earn a BB in another art. The certificate that proves your efforts and training meets this requirement. Think of it like "personal development."

[Touch Of Death]

for instance your a 2nd degree black belt in tkd going up for your 3rd degree and you ve been doing a year straight of jujitsu on the side should your instructor take that into consideration as your willingness to advance in your overall MA knowledge ?

or your a shotokan guy doing muay thai and coming up for rank etc. etc. or a judo guy doing american wrestling or a capoera guy doing kickboxing ...

%-}Nope, unless that training taught you something about the material you are studyng.
Sean

[geezer]

I complement Mwd and Xinglu for their broadmindedness. My own experience has been that my previous instructor did not approve of cross-training and all but forbid it. He felt that if you were serious about learning from him, you wouldn't be wasting time learning other arts.

I did continue training in a second art and as a result lost favor in my instructor's eyes and dropped in status from being a top tier student to just another grunt. Many years later, I returned to training with a different instructor!

I would say that learning a second, complementary system actually can enhance your learning of both systems if you have a sound foundation in your primary system and have enough time and energy to train both styles well. But rank in either style should be granted upon demonstrating what you can do in that system, not on "outside" knowledge.

[Bill Mattocks]

If you learn Spanish, it isn't German. So I would not expect your German teacher to grade you higher because you also learned Spanish. I would not expect him to give a darn about your Spanish.

And you may find yourself accidentally pronouncing words in German incorrectly, simply based on confusion while trying to learn both at the same time.

On the other hand, learning the rules of language, syntax, pronunciation, and becoming bilingual (and then trilingual) are not bad things.

So, learn Spanish and German. And Chinese and Japanese and Esperanto if you like.

But don't expect teachers in any of those fields to consider your other studies to be relevant at all.

I can imagine the conversation:

"You have failed to master the basics of Isshinryu, so I cannot promote you."

"But Sensei, I know hapkido!"

"Great for you. Have a nice day."

[ralphmcpherson]

No , but it could help indirectly I suppose. My tkd club has a very strong self defence element once black belt and beyond (they do self defence at the coloured belt level but not to the same degree). A large part of our grading requirements are self defence related from black belt. There was a guy at my club who studies hapkido on the side and when he grades in tkd he uses his hapkido techniques and regularly gets top points and his gradings are of the highest standard. His hapkido has certainly helped him progress in tkd but he never skipped a rank because of it.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally I love it when anyone I work with (teach or train with) cross trains and learns some thing new. Maybe they will show it to me! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif I think cross training can only help you on your personal martial journey and it does in many way's help your movement within a particular system as well. I personally can attest that Brazilian Jiujitsu helps with your movement in Budo Taijutsu and that Budo Taijutsu helps with your movement in Arnis, Kali, Eskrima so some sytems are very complimentary and others may not be but the movement can help you determine that maybe it is incompatible and that can be a good thing as well.

Now should it be part of a systems grading procedure. Well that would be up to whomever heads up that system. Just my 02.

Bottom line just train, get better and the chips will fall where they may! Do not worry about rank, etc. in other words! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Big Don]

Marksmanship is a martial art. I can shoot the nuts off a gnat at 100 yards, should that get me brownie points when I test for my Black Belt in a few months? Of course not.
It really is comparing apples and oranges.

[mwd0818]

If you learn Spanish, it isn't German. So I would not expect your German teacher to grade you higher because you also learned Spanish. I would not expect him to give a darn about your Spanish.

And you may find yourself accidentally pronouncing words in German incorrectly, simply based on confusion while trying to learn both at the same time.

On the other hand, learning the rules of language, syntax, pronunciation, and becoming bilingual (and then trilingual) are not bad things.

So, learn Spanish and German. And Chinese and Japanese and Esperanto if you like.

But don't expect teachers in any of those fields to consider your other studies to be relevant at all.

I can imagine the conversation:

"You have failed to master the basics of Isshinryu, so I cannot promote you."

"But Sensei, I know hapkido!"

"Great for you. Have a nice day."


Depends on what you're instructor has asked you to study. If it was German, than Spanish will not directly help. But what if you mastered German, and your instructor reveals to you that you are tasked with learning linguistics now, regardless of language. You could study with just the background of English and German, but perhaps a latin language like Spanish or French will help even more.

Ultimately, it all depends on what you are tasked with and what the expectations are. Learning Spanish just to learn Spanish in a German class is pointless, but if it is linguistics and language in general . . . it might be helpful. :)

[suicide]

%-} i guess cross training gets you rank in the real world only ... peace

[dbell]

I feel that once a person has a solid base in one art, and for each person that may be different, but in most cases I would say first or second Dan, that they should begin looking at other arts as well, while continuing with the first Art.

But, aside from growing their knowledge, that second (or third or ...) art should not be considered in the other arts when grading aside from the hopefully increased skill that it has given the Student.

To the comments earlier by someone who's initial instructor didn't want their students cross training:

Early on in your studies, I'm not sure you should be cross training. Until you get your foundations down in one art, studying two or more arts at one time can make it hard to learn each art cleanly. BUT, once you have reached a solid understanding of the principals of the first art, by all means I think you should learn other arts that compliment your initial art by adding techniques and weapons/etc that you didn't have in the first art.

One thing I also recommend is that, provided that you have an open mind and don't try to say "Hey, my Instructor did it this way" at every difference, once you get to a solid understanding level, this time for sure second Dan or so, you should go to other senior instructors in your first art and learn from them as well, to broaden your current understanding of your current art. (Problem here is many don't let you come into their school and study unless you separate yourself from your first instructor...)

[suicide]

i know all TMA & senseis want to perserve there art just as it is , but i think it would be a great idea to send my student out and get some boxing lessons up in him if all i was teaching him was judo and i would rank him and take it into consideration just because it would make em him a all around better MA in the sense of martial arts ( not just judo ) , i know alot of people here and out there wouldnt agree with that , but if i care for my students i would know there gonna need some stand up in there bag of trix just because i know how it is out there theres no gi´s no mats not telling whats lurking in the shadows :)

[Makalakumu]

%-} i guess cross training gets you rank in the real world only ... peace

Only if you don't use deoderant after you practice...lol!

What are you trying to say?

[suicide]

Only if you don't use deoderant after you practice...lol!

What are you trying to say?

in your case only if you brush your teeth after you practice ... lol

what im trying to say is : cross training gets you rank in the real world in real life on a personal level.

i got my black belt 5 years ago since then guys i trained with are working on and about to get there 2nd degree , as for me its not important well it is but not really - i went into judo back into boxing and really got personal about my kenpo and fitness - i meet the requirments for a 1st degree - will i ever go up for it - who knows ? i might i might not a lil stripe on my belt doesnt make a difference to me these days. i stay in close contact with both my kenpo teachers and they always ask me hows that judo working out for you : im like i love it and from time to time i get on the mat with some of his jujitsu students and as for the boxing my teacher was a boxer for 15 years before coming across kenpo so he always hints to me that thats were its at ... so thats were the question kind of originated from : should training in another MA be considered when obataining rank in your own MA :)