Time in each rank

[masherdong]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.

Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.

[ralphmcpherson]

We can grade every 3 to 4 months and have to skip a grading before black belt (thus sitting at the belt before black for 6-12 months). A student usually goes up about 3 belts a year but this is dependent on them having their grading requirements up to speed and having a good run with injuries. Our instructor only prevents a student from grading if they have missed to much class time or have not got their grading requirements to a high enough standard.

[Ken Morgan]

To me there should be a structure in place that everyone has to follow. The Canadian Kendo Federation structure is http://www.kendo-canada.com/grading2009/2009GradingMemo.pdf

[MJS]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.

Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.

Many schools have an average time frame. For example, it may be 2 months between white and yellow. However, people hear this and get upset when it doesnt happen. What they fail to see is that its 2 mos. if you're going 2-3 times a week and training on your own.

People will advance at different rates, so its hard to pinpoint an exact time. We could say that when they have the material, they move on. Well, if you're a quick study, you could blast thru in a month. But, if that happens, then that leads to the 10yo 3rd degree black belts running around.

Rank, IMO, should be up to the teacher. I've had those fast learners in my classes, but I've always managed to find something for them to work on. :) As time goes on, the time in grade should increase. Once BB is reached, I would rather see the number of years for each rank. In other words, from 1st to 2nd degree black is 2yrs. 2nd to 3rd is 3, and so on.

[jks9199]

In what style? How much material does each rank consist of?

My style only has 4 belts (5 for kids; we add a gold belt); white, green, brown, black. We don't have grades within those belts, either. Average progression is about 1 to 2 years to green, another 1 to 2 to brown, and about 2 years before black. Minimum training time for black is 5 years; typical is more like 6 to 7, but 10 or more is not unheard of.

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu only has 3 belts; white, green, and black -- but they have 9 kyu grades between white and black. They don't have a common curriculum, and I'm not sure how long is typical for black.

Some styles test every other month or so, and you can move up as fast as you learn the material. Others require specific time between grades. There's no right answer for all styles, because the training is different in each style.

With regard to holding someone back -- sometimes there's more involved than simply knowing the external material. You may know the motions of the forms, or all the self defense techniques, but you may be missing an important principle that you just need time and practice to internalize. Or you simply aren't doing the techniques at the appropriate level, even though you know the basic motions. If you're concerned... politely ask your instructor, but be prepared for the answer to be "because."

[ACJ]

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?

Long enough.

The question doesn't have a simple answer, because it depends on the system's standards, the system's structure, the system's rankings, the syllabus, the class structure, the teacher's methods, the teacher's aims, the students' ability, the students' attitudes and the students' aims, just to name a few.

I would say that my aims as a teacher would lead me to try and find the balance between motivation by giving out new belts, and motivation by making each belt feel earned as well as the effect on the standard as a teacher. So for me it would differ for each student and their attitude, skill and aims.

[Josh Oakley]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.

Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.

Honestly, you shouldn't care. That's their rank. Not yours. If your instructor held you back a year, he had his reasons. I've had students take a year to get past blue, and some who got through it in as little as 5 months. But you shouldn't compare times. It will either dishearten you at your own progress when you see people advance more quickly than you, or puff you up when you advance more quickly than others. neither is good.

[Blindside]

Our kenpo school didn't have minimum time in rank for underbelts, but you had to both know the material and then perform it at a certain standard. The naturals did advance faster. The flip side was that there wasn't really a maximum time you could spend in rank. Most kids would spend years at orange/purple belt until they got old enough to retain and perform the material for the intermediate ranks. The philosophy was simple, promote the student when they were ready, however long that took, be it one month or 5 years. It sounds like that is what your instructor is doing, but if he is changing the standard of "performance" than you are kind of SOL. Minimum time limits don't change performance standards, they just frustrate those who do manage advance faster than those arbitrary standards.

[Kajowaraku]

About a year per kyuu isn't uncommon for us. If you train hard it can be two kyuu per year (up to about 6th kyu at least) but than it gets substantially harder and slower. To get a shodan in taijutsu or jujutsu you need to get through 10 kyuu (including one for your "white" belt, all the other jkyuu are plain green with stripes). If you ever hope to rise above shodan in either of them you'll need shodan in the other too, totalling 20 checktests before you're a full fledged black belt. That usually takes at least ten years, even for shodan in one of both, the other tends to follow a year or a few years later than (since usually you take checktests for taijutsu and jujutus in turn). Only when shodan can you begin taking tests for the armed disciplines such as bojutsu, hanbojutsu and bikenjutsu. It's a long and challenging road. Some things take time to properly settle in, regardless of how much we train. Maturing in your art will eventually always boil down to accumulating experience and biding your time.

I understand your frustration though. The dojohall where we train is shared with other arts. When I see how quickly people that started out there are boasting new rank, while students that joined us a year ago still haven't even earned 10th kyuu,... well I guess it just doesn't encourage people that hunt after high grades to sign up. The real question of course would be: "why would we think *that* is bad thing?". :)

just my coinage of little monetary value.

[xJOHNx]

You shouldn't look at the color of your belt. It is nothing more but a piece of string. It is what you do that matters.

Although speaking for myself, I also want to have my blackbelt to boast about. Only human..:)

[Bruno@MT]

Honestly, you shouldn't care. That's their rank. Not yours. If your instructor held you back a year, he had his reasons. I've had students take a year to get past blue, and some who got through it in as little as 5 months. But you shouldn't compare times. It will either dishearten you at your own progress when you see people advance more quickly than you, or puff you up when you advance more quickly than others. neither is good.

+1.

I have been wearing white for 8 months now, and the most senior student already wears it for a year. And this is with me training 2 times per week with my sensei, and 1-2 times per week on my own.

We are a new sattelite dojo, and when we started, all of us where new. Without senior students, it takes longer to achieve a certain level. Our new members learn things faster than we did, because they have the luxury of having trainings partners who know what they are doing.

Additionally, my sensei is not yet conducting exams, the head sensei of our dojo is doing that. It is important for my sensei that when we do our exam, we show the head sensei that we perform better than 'It'll do'.

In the end, there is a difference between knowing enough to pass the exam, and mastering your techniques. Spending a couple months longer per grade will not hold you back in any way. Even though you may know your techniques, there is still plenty of room for improvement. Whether you wear that belt a couple months sooner, rather than later is completely immaterial regarding to your progress.

A month or 2 ago, I knew all of my techniques and theory (names etc) well enough to pass the exam. For several reasons, we didn't get to do the exm yet, but looking back, my skill now is higher than my skill then. Enough so that I notice it. So staying at my grade did not hold me back in any way.

Real progress is made by training for years and years, and sticking with it. Don't worry about things on the timescale of a couple of months.

[Carol]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.

Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.

But you went from white to blue in less than 8 months total time, yes?

From white to gold in less than a month:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48701

From gold to orange in less than two months:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50740

From orange to purple in less than three months:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=842124#post842124

From purple to blue in less than three months:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=884634#post884634

Maybe he felt that you needed extra time at that rank after moving so quickly through the prior ranks? Hard to say.

[K-man]

After two and a half years of Aikido (regular 4 hours per week), I am proud to wear my white belt. I may get to a black belt in another five or six years, if I keep progressing. Time doesn't faze me. However, I know that when I do gain my BB I will be a good aikidoka! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[celtic_crippler]

I think that if you have a concern with it then you should discuss it with your instructor behind closed doors.

Personally, I feel the time-in for each rank varies per individual. Factors like natural ability, intelligence, time spent practicing outside the dojo, and prior experience in martial arts are but a few obvious examples that impact advancement.

I think if you have a commercial set up and/or several students that it might be a good idea in the interest of harmony to require a minimum time-in rank so that there is at least some appearance of a unified standard.

[alphacat]

Would you mind explaining to me please what the requirements for advancing to the next rank are?

I understand that holding long enough the current rank and attending classes during this period of time are part of the requirements for advancing to the next rank, but once these two are fulfilled, what is next?
Are you to fight another trainee in front of the instructor for him to test your skills?

By the way,
I’m taking Muay Thai lessons in my gym, and I never saw anyone wearing a belt on his shorts.
Is this whole ranking issue different in Muay Thai?

Thanks guys.

[Jenna]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.

Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.
That is quite a formidable collection of martial applications and qualifications you have indexed in your signature sir.. I think your resume must be very very impressive indeed.

If I were your instructor I would grant you your next rank quite as soon as I possibly could and keep you a happy student.

Commendations, Jenna xo

[ap Oweyn]

I'll go with the "who cares?" angle.

The time a person spends at each rank only matters in so far that the black belt matters. If the black belt is the end goal (which so many people seem to believe it is), then the "markers" on your way to the black belt hold significance. If the black belt is just another test, with plenty of work still to be done after it, then the markers to get to it are still important, but only in so far that they indicate skill development.

I guess it's a question of perspective though. When I was studying eskrima, early on, my friend Scott skipped a belt and "got ahead" of me in the ranking system. I was outraged. I had 5 years of taekwondo experience already. And I made every class I could. But Scott had very few obligations outside of the school. So he was there all the time.

Did he deserve to skip a rank? In retrospect, he was better than me in several important ways. At the time, I wasn't willing to see that. But, in the end, Scott dropped out for personal reasons. I kept going and got my black belt. So, in the long view, it didn't matter much.

More to the point, me having a black belt and Scott not having one didn't fundamentally change what each of us were capable of doing. I know what I know, regardless of what I wear. The belt is a nice symbol and all. But, as a counseling professor of mine was fond of saying, "the map isn't the territory." In other words, the thing that symbolizes your actions is no substitute for your actual actions.


Stuart

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.
Varries from style to style, org to org within a style, and school to school within an org.

Usually, belt colors are not the actual rank. As mentioned by a previous poster, some belt colors encompass multiple ranks.


Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.
Hard to say why you were held at one rank. The best way to find out is simply to ask him. It could be that there were certain things in your execution that he wanted to see sorted out? Or perhaps with newer students he is moving them along faster in order to keep them happy?

Anything that is answered here in that regard is just speculation.

I do believe that a student should not be promoted until they have shown that they have a solid handle on their current material. It only hurts the student in the long run.

Daniel

[Jaspthecat]

Belt and rank are folly IMO.

I did the whole 'got to get the next belt' thing when I did KD as a kid and got up to a red belt (3rd Kup IIRC) by the time I moved on.

I now do Krav Maga which has a grading system but TBH I can't be arsed, I would prefer to demonstrate good technique and spar well than say 'oh I'm this or that' Afterall, I'm sure every one of us have heard a story about how a karate/TKD (insert MA here) black belt had his arse handed to him in a real situation.

I also do Muay Thai, my gym doesn't have a belt system which is fine by me, I judge people's ability by how they can kick butt in the ring and not by the colour of their sash.

I understand that some people like the idea of progression, but as some have pointed out, there are many occasions, where the significance has been watered down by people moving too quickly through the ranks.

To the OP, don't fret over it....

[masherdong]

But you went from white to blue in less than 8 months total time, yes?

From white to gold in less than a month:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48701

From gold to orange in less than two months:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50740

From orange to purple in less than three months:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=842124#post842124

From purple to blue in less than three months:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=884634#post884634


Maybe he felt that you needed extra time at that rank after moving so quickly through the prior ranks? Hard to say.

Yes, but now another guy is blowing past the rankings as I did and he isnt holding him back. So, go figure.

[masherdong]

Hard to say why you were held at one rank. The best way to find out is simply to ask him. It could be that there were certain things in your execution that he wanted to see sorted out? Or perhaps with newer students he is moving them along faster in order to keep them happy?

Anything that is answered here in that regard is just speculation.

I do believe that a student should not be promoted until they have shown that they have a solid handle on their current material. It only hurts the student in the long run.

Daniel

His only response to that was that I was moving waaay to fast so he had no choice but to hold me back. He said that my form and techniques were done very well. No other answer but to say that I was moving too quickly. Now, same thing is going on with another student and he tells me that he cant slow him down any. Go figure.

[Steve]

I think, where there's rank, it should apply a somewhat independent standard. One major reason I left my old school was rank and promotion. BJJ does it right, IMO. It's not about curriculum as much as it's about skills and ability. In other words, there are fundamentals taught to everyone because it's important. Beyond that, BJJ adapts to you.

You're promoted based upon your ability to apply what you've learned. As a general rule of thumb, black belts control browns, who control purples, who control blues who control white belts. That doesn't mean I don't get tapped by white belts. It simply means that, as a general rule, I'm the one controlling the rolls. I usually choose to put myself in weaker positions or not, risking being submitted.

Usually, there is no testing and are no testing fees, although I know of both in schools both in the USA and in Brazil. When your instructor feels like you're ready, fwoop... you're promoted.

[Steve]

I'll just add as an aside that I really like what Roy Dean does at his BJJ school. He's a black belt in Aikido and BJJ (and I think Judo, as well). He gives all of his students the opportunity to perform in a promotion demonstration that is pretty darned cool.

[Daniel Sullivan]

His only response to that was that I was moving waaay to fast so he had no choice but to hold me back. He said that my form and techniques were done very well. No other answer but to say that I was moving too quickly. Now, same thing is going on with another student and he tells me that he cant slow him down any. Go figure.
This may sound like a stupid question on my part, but just to clarify; do you mean moving too quickly through ranks or physically moving too rapidly when performing forms and technique?

Daniel

[Dave Leverich]

Steve, ditto on Roy Dean. I also love his blend of Judo & BJJ (and apparently Aikido hehe). His promotion demonstrations are great (a few on Youtube).

My blue was a 'class, I have an announcement, hand belt/form for IBJJF thingy' big hug, now you're a target let's roll. Btw, I really like/agree with your statement on blues generally controlling whites, purples controlling blues etc etc.

Personally I'd love if the rest of the TMA's could 'roll back' the belts in line with what BJJ has (IE my blue was about 1000 hours on the mat, 2 years). Where a black belt was 'ZOMG a black belt!'. But, like Pandora's Box and Obamanomics...

[Blindside]

His only response to that was that I was moving waaay to fast so he had no choice but to hold me back. He said that my form and techniques were done very well. No other answer but to say that I was moving too quickly. Now, same thing is going on with another student and he tells me that he cant slow him down any. Go figure.

Is it only this one student, or is this occuring with the rest of the school as a whole?

[Xinglu]

I hate, nay despise the idea of an average time being given out. Each rank should be earned by mastery and application of each technique. Period.

If that means a student blows through the ranks, so be it. If it means a student takes years to climb from one rank to the next, so be it. Each person is unique and should not be awarded a belt because they have the time in and can do the form well. What about the applications of the forms, can they show them all with mastery against a resisting opponent? How are they in sparing have they improved, are they applying their new knowledge there? What about there attitude? Are they impatient? Content? humble? dedicated? How do they interact with the other students? Do they have a chip on their shoulder or do they actively help lesser grades improve?

There are the tangible requirements and the non-tangible requirements and IMO the latter is more important. Should you care about rank no. Should you care about how fast your classmates advance? No. Jealousy has no place in the training hall.

[shaolinmonkmark]

I hate, nay despise the idea of an average time being given out. Each rank should be earned by mastery and application of each technique. Period.

If that means a student blows through the ranks, so be it. If it means a student takes years to climb from one rank to the next, so be it. Each person is unique and should not be awarded a belt because they have the time in and can do the form well. What about the applications of the forms, can they show them all with mastery against a resisting opponent? How are they in sparing have they improved, are they applying their new knowledge there? What about there attitude? Are they impatient? Content? humble? dedicated? How do they interact with the other students? Do they have a chip on their shoulder or do they actively help lesser grades improve?

There are the tangible requirements and the non-tangible requirements and IMO the latter is more important. Should you care about rank no. Should you care about how fast your classmates advance? No. Jealousy has no place in the training hall.



this was covered a couple of months ago here.

I concur with Mr. X, time will tell, and skill level will make it happen.

(don't rush to get a black belt/black or red sash, take your time, so you can get down the basics!It is a "Learning" process!)

[Rich Parsons]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.

Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.

I was a Blue belt for a very long time.

I even trained people for their Brown Belts as a Blue Belt.

But I did not question why I was not asked to test. Something was not there so I kept training and training and working and listening and doing what I was asked to do, and wow, now I teach Seminars, and people look to me for infomration on the art I teach.

Also the time frame per art will vary, but I have almost always seen time frames associated with the word Minimum, not Maximum.

[suicide]

it took me almost 2 years to go from white to orange i just couldnt find myself but after that something clicked and shiznit just started making sense to me - and i started moving through belts hella of faster with more understanding i just got hungry for the knowledge ...

[masherdong]

This may sound like a stupid question on my part, but just to clarify; do you mean moving too quickly through ranks or physically moving too rapidly when performing forms and technique?

Daniel

Moving fast between ranks.

[masherdong]

Is it only this one student, or is this occuring with the rest of the school as a whole?

Mostly with this one student. But, I am now slowly seeing him do it to the whole school now.

[mwd0818]

Rather than rehash any previously made points, I will simply add this to the mix (many of my beliefs echo statements already made).

Rank only has the significance that is assigned to it. It is assigned by the student, the instructor, the organization, etc. While there are some perceived notions about the "black belt" from the outside world, I have been part of dojos and organizations that view the rank anywhere on a large spectrum, with the extremes being:

1) Someone who has spent a year or two learning the basics and is ready to learn the REAL system and art
2) Someone who has mastered the art and can easily and effectively teach it and share (10-15+ years!)

One can debate the value of either, or the views in between (of which most schools would fall into and there is obviously a wide range). However, it is important that the integrity of the rank be maintained within that dojo or group. If I say Black Belt equates to general mastery of the art, a student should understandably be upset when someone else is promoted to that rank who obviously does not possess the skill that he has been working toward. If i define it purely based on time in rank and/or mat time, then I have set the expectation that X-number of hours = X-rank, and when you reach that milestone, you'll want the belt, and, you'll be upset if you don't get it when you reach those hours OR if someone else gets the rank BEFORE they meet those requirements.

Whatever the requirements are, they are right for that group, but must be held to. Rank is a human construct and completely arbitrary - the individuals provide the meaning to the rank, but once you violate that meaning as an instructor or organization, you should expect dissent and complaint.

I have left schools or organizations over rank, even though rank itself was not the reason I trained. It was a catalyst and a symptom of other problems with the organization, and it was definitely a contributing "final straw." The main reason? Rank had been established and requirements expressed, but those were changed for commercial reasons and became inconsistent. Again, it was the inconsistency that prompted the dissent. If you change your policies, that's fine, but we had all better change together.

[Josh Oakley]

His only response to that was that I was moving waaay to fast so he had no choice but to hold me back. He said that my form and techniques were done very well. No other answer but to say that I was moving too quickly. Now, same thing is going on with another student and he tells me that he cant slow him down any. Go figure.

So what?

[alphacat]

Would you mind explaining to me please what the requirements for advancing to the next rank are?

I understand that holding long enough the current rank and attending classes during this period of time are part of the requirements for advancing to the next rank, but once these two are fulfilled, what is next?
Are you to fight another trainee in front of the instructor for him to test your skills?

By the way,
I’m taking Muay Thai lessons in my gym, and I never saw anyone wearing a belt on his shorts.
Is this whole ranking issue different in Muay Thai?

Thanks guys.

Could anyone help me with this question please? :asian:

[Daniel Sullivan]

Would you mind explaining to me please what the requirements for advancing to the next rank are?

I understand that holding long enough the current rank and attending classes during this period of time are part of the requirements for advancing to the next rank, but once these two are fulfilled, what is next?
Are you to fight another trainee in front of the instructor for him to test your skills?
Usually, it is a general level of proficiency in a specific selection of skills. For example, a karate school could require you to be able to perform certain kicks, certain forms, and certain types of kumite for different ranks.

Also, different styles may have greater or fewer ranks than others. Taekwondo traditionally has ten keup grades. Kendo traditionally has only six testable kyu grades. Some styles even have a rank between first kyu and first dan. And then there are TKD Poom grades that are essentially junior dan grades for kids under fifteen.



I’m taking Muay Thai lessons in my gym, and I never saw anyone wearing a belt on his shorts.
Is this whole ranking issue different in Muay Thai?

Thanks guys.
Most likely. Different styles have different ranking methods and different means of displaying their rank.

Some styles do not display it at all, and on shorts, a belt for a traditional gi would look rather silly. In kendo, we do not wear belts. In tai chi, belts are not traditionally worn, but I know that there are schools that do use them, or use different colored sashes in the same manner as belts.

Keep in mind that the belt is not the rank, but a means of displaying it. I hold a third dan in the KKF, but my belts sit on a shelf in my room.

On the other hand, I hold a first dan in the KKW and I wear it to class because it the uniform is designed to be worn with it. Same goes for hapkido (though I am still a mudanja in that).

As far as Muay Thai, I do not know if they even use the kyu/dan system or equivalent. I know in boxing and fencing, one is rated by their fight record.

Hope that helps!

Daniel

[yorkshirelad]

After two and a half years of Aikido (regular 4 hours per week), I am proud to wear my white belt. I may get to a black belt in another five or six years, if I keep progressing. Time doesn't faze me. However, I know that when I do gain my BB I will be a good aikidoka! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif
Masherdong,

The rank thing has always been interesting to me.

Koichi Tohei recieved his 7th Dan with only 2 years of training and was promoted to 10th Dan with less than 5 years of training. Why? Who knows, maybe O'Sensei liked him.

Jeff Speakman was obviously cross ranked from Goju to EPAK. He was given 4th Degree by Mr Parker after only 4 years in the system.

Joe Lewis got his black belt after only 9 months of training.

It took me 10 years to get my black belt. that's six years at 4x per week and 4 years pretty much full time. I've seen people in a recent studio that I trained at go from white to black in 2 years, but it's no skin off of my nose. After all, I know what I know.

This rank thing can lead to animosity. When someone starts after you and they are a higher rank than you it can feel disappointing, sometimes humiliating but try not to let it. In the arts we practise there will be no end to rank. Even if you reach highest echelons, then you will be effected by rank from the other end. You will have students whining, complaining and leaving because of the colour of rope around their waist. Concentrate on training and being the best you can be and it will come.

I noticed that you already have a black belt, so why all the fuss?

[Blindside]

By the way,
I’m taking Muay Thai lessons in my gym, and I never saw anyone wearing a belt on his shorts.
Is this whole ranking issue different in Muay Thai?


Yes, it is completely different.

Culturewise the belt systems of the Korean and Japanese systems are derived from Judo's use of the color of the obi (belt) as a designation of training, mostly as a differentiation of the novice from the proficient. It has been adopted by some Chinese systems in the form of different colored belts or tassles or similarly in some Thai schools of Krabi Krabong.

Also, some schools have ranking systems but do not show any outward display of the individual's level.

[K-man]

That is quite a formidable collection of martial applications and qualifications you have indexed in your signature sir.. I think your resume must be very very impressive indeed.

If I were your instructor I would grant you your next rank quite as soon as I possibly could and keep you a happy student.

Commendations, Jenna xo
Jenna, I fear you are misbehaving again! You will have to go stand in the corner. :rofl:

[ralphmcpherson]

Rather than rehash any previously made points, I will simply add this to the mix (many of my beliefs echo statements already made).

Rank only has the significance that is assigned to it. It is assigned by the student, the instructor, the organization, etc. While there are some perceived notions about the "black belt" from the outside world, I have been part of dojos and organizations that view the rank anywhere on a large spectrum, with the extremes being:

1) Someone who has spent a year or two learning the basics and is ready to learn the REAL system and art
2) Someone who has mastered the art and can easily and effectively teach it and share (10-15+ years!)

One can debate the value of either, or the views in between (of which most schools would fall into and there is obviously a wide range). However, it is important that the integrity of the rank be maintained within that dojo or group. If I say Black Belt equates to general mastery of the art, a student should understandably be upset when someone else is promoted to that rank who obviously does not possess the skill that he has been working toward. If i define it purely based on time in rank and/or mat time, then I have set the expectation that X-number of hours = X-rank, and when you reach that milestone, you'll want the belt, and, you'll be upset if you don't get it when you reach those hours OR if someone else gets the rank BEFORE they meet those requirements.

Whatever the requirements are, they are right for that group, but must be held to. Rank is a human construct and completely arbitrary - the individuals provide the meaning to the rank, but once you violate that meaning as an instructor or organization, you should expect dissent and complaint.

I have left schools or organizations over rank, even though rank itself was not the reason I trained. It was a catalyst and a symptom of other problems with the organization, and it was definitely a contributing "final straw." The main reason? Rank had been established and requirements expressed, but those were changed for commercial reasons and became inconsistent. Again, it was the inconsistency that prompted the dissent. If you change your policies, that's fine, but we had all better change together.some very good points there. I think it is very important to understand what a specific school deem a black belt to be. The average joe on the street has a very unrealistic view of what a black belt means. I remember when I got my black belt and my mates would say "geez , I wouldnt mess with you" , and this made no sense to me. My club does not make it easy to get a black belt and it does take time but they view black belt as a time when the really hard training can begin. Dont get me wrong , we train hard as a coloured belt and it is no mean feat to get a black belt but its certainly not the be all and end all. My instructor (6th dan 35 years of training) sees a black belt as a beginner ready to start the journey through the dans. Other clubs/styles see black belt as the holy grail . For these reasons its hard to say what the 'correct' amount of time for each belt is , or how long it should take to get to black. It really comes down to what a club perceives a black belt to be.

[K-man]

Koichi Tohei recieved his 7th Dan with only 2 years of training and was promoted to 10th Dan with less than 5 years of training. Why? Who knows, maybe O'Sensei liked him.
I believe the first grade given after two years training may have been 5th dan, nevertheless an impressive promotion. This included spending 6 months of full time training with O'Sensei, and when he was leaving the organisation to join the military. I think his elevation had a lot to do with his understanding of the 'ki' principles. The 10th dan promotion was in 1969, 29 years after he first started with O'Sensei, and I presume when O'Sensei realised he was not long for this earth. :asian:

[Jaspthecat]

Could anyone help me with this question please? :asian:


I believe some schools employ sashes.

As far as I'm concerned, proficiency should be gauged by overall skill and if applicable the number of fights entered and won.

You don't see boxers wear belts, you gauge them by how they fight.

[ACJ]

You don't see boxers wear belts, you gauge them by how they fight.

Don't they have those giant belts? =D

[Jaspthecat]

Don't they have those giant belts? =D

Oh yeah, good point!

You don't lose a belt once you have achieved it though, in MA at least.

[Bruno@MT]

Oh yeah, good point!

You don't lose a belt once you have achieved it though, in MA at least.

In Genbukan ninpo / jujutsu you can.

If you drop out, and then join again later, you have to start over again.
Depending on which rank you had previously, you can accelerate check testing, but you'll have to pass each exam again.
Personally, I think this is perfectly reasonable.

[Jaspthecat]

In Genbukan ninpo / jujutsu you can.

If you drop out, and then join again later, you have to start over again.
Depending on which rank you had previously, you can accelerate check testing, but you'll have to pass each exam again.
Personally, I think this is perfectly reasonable.

I should have elaborated...

I meant lose your belt for losing a fight.

I myself lost my 3rd Kup status in TKD after I returned briefly to the sport after a 5 year break.

[yorkshirelad]

I believe the first grade given after two years training may have been 5th dan, nevertheless an impressive promotion. This included spending 6 months of full time training with O'Sensei, and when he was leaving the organisation to join the military. I think his elevation had a lot to do with his understanding of the 'ki' principles. The 10th dan promotion was in 1969, 29 years after he first started with O'Sensei, and I presume when O'Sensei realised he was not long for this earth. :asian:
I recall 7th after years. Oh well. No-one knows why he was ranked so quickly, but it could be that O'Sensei liked him, nothing more. O'Sensei was just a man and would have had his favourites like everyone else.

My point is that rank is subjective and shouldn't be taken too seriously. Ed parker awarded Elvis an 8th Degree for Pete's sake. He said it was honorary, but any rank above 3rd (or 5th if you use forms 7 for 4th and 8 for 5th) is honorary in EPAK.

Sometimes people get the rank because the instructor likes them or wants something from them. I just think that we should just train and be happy with the fact that we have a functional body to train with and healthy mind to process the instruction.

[jeorf]

In our school there are no set guidelines for promotion. When someone is ready to test they test. It is incredibly rare for someone to test more frequently than 6 months. Kids test once a year. It's a mushy decision-making process based on how the person's skills and growth have improved since the previous test. There are physically talented people who get through the lower ranks pretty quick. There are people who, at middle ranks don't test because they aren't maturing into the role that the next level requires. (I'm talking adults here - there's one now that is being held back from red belt because of his disrespectful manner and lack of psychological commitment to the art and his development.)

I have always completely trusted my teacher's decisions on whether or not I'm ready to test. At times someone is invited to test because they are already "at" the next rank, sometimes someone is invited to test because they need that goal moment to get there. There is no passing or failing. The test itself is a demonstration of where you're at. If there are problems that are evident at the test then it just points out what needs to be the focus next.

I think that the usual time for the lowest ranks is probably 6-8 months between tests. That seems to stretch out for most people to 8-12 months through the middle ranks. Red to 1st black stripe, to 2nd black stripe and to black is probably pretty close to a year each rank. (1st stripe to 2nd can be a lot sooner.) There are probably 2 adult tests per year. I was 8 years to BB which, somehow, was quick (considering I was a green belt for what felt like forever - close to 3 years) and was going through surgery and chemotherapy between 1st black stripe and BB. After that it's 2 years to 2nd dan, 3 to 3rd, etc, 25 total years before 4th. (I think that's pretty typical.)

I often hear that kids will get bored if they don't test every couple of months but we don't see that at all. In fact, at once a year they are often ahead of themselves. (There was talk about adding another yellow stripe for kids at one point.) They come to adult class at age 13 often with 1 red stripe (that would be 5th gup I think). No one tests for red belt before age 16. They really are given the chance to mature before being promoted to that rank. Often a young person will go off to college for a year at 2nd black stripe and test for black in the summer after their freshman year.

How's that for a long answer??

[katagrl]

I think that the usual time for the lowest ranks is probably 6-8 months between tests. That seems to stretch out for most people to 8-12 months through the middle ranks. Red to 1st black stripe, to 2nd black stripe and to black is probably pretty close to a year each rank.

I am glad to see that there are other schools that take a long time to promote people. I have sometimes wondered if my teacher is a bit OCD, and kind of unreasonably perfectionistic, and it can get pretty frustrating sometimes. In my school, for the adults we have quarterly evaluations -- though this is pretty loose, depending on instructor's schedules. It actually usually ends up being more like 3 times a year, on average. Everyone is expected to attend, if at all possible, regardless of whether they expect to get promoted, and they will advance at that time if they are ready. People who catch on quickly can advance through the first couple of ranks in a year, but then it slows down dramatically. It usually takes somewhere between 8 to 12 years to get to shodan! Getting promoted is not just based on knowing the requirements for that belt, but working on them for a long enough time that they have improved greatly, plus some ineffible thing that only sensei knows about. I think it's all very well to say that rank shouldn't matter and the like, but when you are training 3 to 5 times a week -- definitely 5 in the big push before shodan -- it can get discouraging at times. Also, rank definitely does matter, if you are into tournaments, because you can't judge without the shodan.

Well, I also have to take into account that we are actually earning 2 shodans, because we have to test through 10 kyu levels in kobudo (weapons) as well, and have to have achieved shodan in it in order to get shodan in karate-do. People often spend a year or so on each weapons kata, so that's 10 years right there.

All of this is to say, I'm glad to see that there are other schools who do it more like this, I'm not sure why, maybe so I don't feel alone in my frustration. (?) Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessed with rank, and I stay because it is excellent training. But rank does matter as well, in my opinion. People need encouragement, for one thing, and it especially becomes an issue when there are apparent discrepencies within the school. But that is a separate topic, perhaps for a future post.

Anyway, I think it's excellent training, so I stay.

[Jenny_in_Chico]

Ed parker awarded Elvis an 8th Degree for Pete's sake. He said it was honorary, but any rank above 3rd (or 5th if you use forms 7 for 4th and 8 for 5th) is honorary in EPAK.


Can you elaborate on this? I'm new to EPAK, and I'm a little hazy still on the nuances of black belt rankings.

Thanks!

[Bruno@MT]

I
All of this is to say, I'm glad to see that there are other schools who do it more like this, I'm not sure why, maybe so I don't feel alone in my frustration. (?) Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessed with rank, and I stay because it is excellent training. But rank does matter as well, in my opinion. People need encouragement, for one thing, and it especially becomes an issue when there are apparent discrepencies within the school. But that is a separate topic, perhaps for a future post.

Anyway, I think it's excellent training, so I stay.

+1.

I will be glad if I can finally wear green instead of white though. :o

[Daniel Sullivan]

Can you elaborate on this? I'm new to EPAK, and I'm a little hazy still on the nuances of black belt rankings.

Thanks!
In many systems, rank beyond a certain point is "honorary" in the sense that new material is not being taught, thus the individual has learned the curriculum in its entirety. That does not mean that there is not a physical test of some kind, though sometimes, ranks are bestowed without one.

In most systems, the breaking point is from fourth and sixth dan. Above that, it becomes more about what you have done for the art, rather than just your technical mastery and personal depth.

In Presley's case, he promoted Parker, Parker's system, and the martial arts in general quite heavilly. He financed the opening of one of Kang Rhee's schools as well, and studied karate in some form from the late fifties through at least the early seventies. Not the time period that one would expect for one to attain an 8th dan, but as was said, it was honorary.

Presley tested up through either third and was skipped to fifth or through fourth and skipped to sixth. Kang Rhee promoted him to seventh dan, honorary, I assume, and Parker promoted him to eighth, honorary as previously mentioned.

From the information that I have read, Presley was most likely a fairly solid third dan and a legit fourth. Beyond that, his promotions were honorary and based on his contributions to the arts, much of which was financial, some of which included in person promotion of the arts.

Point of trivia: his white jump suit design was based on his karate gi.

Daniel

[Jenny_in_Chico]

Point of trivia: his white jump suit design was based on his karate gi.


That is serendipitous, because I was considering the addition of stategically-placed sequins to my own gi.

[Milt G.]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.

Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.

Hello,

Except for the first belt, in our case it is the yellow belt, I feel that three to six months is a sufficient time in each rank. Most practitioners will fall closer to the five to six month timing. The yellow belt is often obtained in one to three months. There are about a third less requirements at that level.
Our belt rank progression is:
White (no requirements, comes with gi.) :)
Yellow
Orange
Purple
Blue
Green
3rd Brown
2nd Brown
1st Brown
1st Black, etc...

The brown belt, which for us has three seperate levels, (each a full belt system) should be held for a minimum of one year.

The black belt levels are pretty standard for us in that the 1st level (Shodan) is obtained in three to five years. Most practitioners fall in the four to five year range. Above Shodan the time in grade is equal to the level of your next belt rank. Two years to Nidan, Three years to Sandan, four years to Yodan, etc... There are exceptions to these times in grade but they are few and far between.

This is how I/we do it anyway.
Good thread! Thank you.
Milt G.

[Daniel Sullivan]

The brown belt, which for us has three seperate levels, (each a full belt system) should be held for a minimum of one year.
What do you mean by "each a full belt system" with regards to the three levels of brown? Just curious.

Daniel

[jeorf]

I am glad to see that there are other schools that take a long time to promote people. I have sometimes wondered if my teacher is a bit OCD, and kind of unreasonably perfectionistic, and it can get pretty frustrating sometimes. In my school, for the adults we have quarterly evaluations -- though this is pretty loose, depending on instructor's schedules. It actually usually ends up being more like 3 times a year, on average. Everyone is expected to attend, if at all possible, regardless of whether they expect to get promoted, and they will advance at that time if they are ready. People who catch on quickly can advance through the first couple of ranks in a year, but then it slows down dramatically. It usually takes somewhere between 8 to 12 years to get to shodan! Getting promoted is not just based on knowing the requirements for that belt, but working on them for a long enough time that they have improved greatly, plus some ineffible thing that only sensei knows about. I think it's all very well to say that rank shouldn't matter and the like, but when you are training 3 to 5 times a week -- definitely 5 in the big push before shodan -- it can get discouraging at times. Also, rank definitely does matter, if you are into tournaments, because you can't judge without the shodan.

Well, I also have to take into account that we are actually earning 2 shodans, because we have to test through 10 kyu levels in kobudo (weapons) as well, and have to have achieved shodan in it in order to get shodan in karate-do. People often spend a year or so on each weapons kata, so that's 10 years right there.

All of this is to say, I'm glad to see that there are other schools who do it more like this, I'm not sure why, maybe so I don't feel alone in my frustration. (?) Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessed with rank, and I stay because it is excellent training. But rank does matter as well, in my opinion. People need encouragement, for one thing, and it especially becomes an issue when there are apparent discrepencies within the school. But that is a separate topic, perhaps for a future post.

Anyway, I think it's excellent training, so I stay.

I think that the difference my have to do with the focus of the school. If you are doing a lot of competition (are you? I can't quite tell) then rank probably means more.

There are probably people in my school who are more concerned about rank than others but I don't think anyone would ever say anything about it. (Asking when you might test is, to me, kind of like asking people how much money they make.) There are probably people who get frustrated at not testing more frequently or seeing a "rank mate" test before they do. It's all pretty fair and it's very rare that someone who stands to the left (lower in the rank/time frame usually) of someone of the same rank gets tested sooner.

Your comment about apparent discrepancies is another issue. The person who was my "rank mate" throughout my training, and with whom I tested for black belt, is really at a completely different place than I am. First, she's about 20 years older than me (which puts her in her 70's) and, even separate from that, just doesn't seem to have the same intensity of interest/focus as I do. It has "gotten to me" at times - especially in our BB training. But, I figure it's just one of those things I need to learn about - letting go of competitiveness and comparisons and just taking responsibility for myself.

It's my sense that we have the feelings about rank that we do because that's how our school puts it forth. I suppose if I was at a school where testing occurred on a set schedule and there was an option for failure I would feel differently about it. (I wonder if I would even stay in it...but I really don't know if I can answer that - I probably would, I'd just have a whole different attitude about what I was doing there.)

You must understand, this comes from someone who, when I tested for red belt, went kicking (if you'll excuse the pun) and pouting into having to finally admit that I wasn't a beginner anymore! It was a relief to become black belt and be able to be beginner again!

[Milt G.]

What do you mean by "each a full belt system" with regards to the three levels of brown? Just curious.

Daniel

Hello,
What I meant, but what came out "fuzzy", was...

There are three levels of the brown belt rank.
3rd, 2nd and 1st brown.

Each of those levels has, at least, the required material of any other belt level up to that point.
So, you wear the brown belt for about the same time as you would move through three other belt levels. About a year, or so.

The brown belt is located directly under the black in our system of Kenpo.

Sorry for the confusion, but thanks!
Milt G.

[kingkong89]

We advance our students when they are redy everyone learns at their own pace if it takes them 6 months to go from blue to gereen it takes then 6th months if it takes them 6 yrs it takes them 6 yrs

[Ninebird8]

In traditional kung fu, there were only four ranks: Grandmaster who headed the syste, Masters, disciples, and students (si hing and si dei, older and younger brothers). Nowadays, even kung fu has rankings in America to help everyone along, but in my opinion, and in observation, putting a set time on when someone should rank is foolhardy. I have read here in some cases where people are tested every three months and can obtain a black belt in 2-3 years?! It took me 8 and a half years to get that first equivalent rank, and I was not moving slowly. But I trained every day from 5-7 in the morning, went to work, and then trained from 6-9 at night, but that was the old way. And, our tests lasted from 6 hours to 2 days on the weekend! Along with disagreeing with giving sashes/belts to youngsters at black belt level, each person moves at their own pace and level of understanding. One of the KEY lessons lost in the US but true in Asia is to test against one's self every day, not compare to progress of others. Not all can be a Jet Li, an Ed Parker, a Jhonn Rhee or Hee Il Cho, Bruce Lee, etc.

When people ask me how to tell a good school,one of the first things I tell them is to run away if they guarantee a time frame for a rank, as that is impossible! Each individual determines their own rate of progress, along with a good instructor's guidance, insight, and training.

That is my humble opinion....seek the knowledge, not the rank!! Attain the knowledge, then the rank will come, and then wisdom, which really is nothing more than knowledge applied at the appropriate time!

[shaolin-warrior]

This is my official first post!
I just ran this article in my school news letter after I lost a student because she was passed over for testing.
The Importance of Rank Testing
Sensei Brian
When will my child be ready to test?

It is very important to understand that not everyone will progress at the same speed through the ranks in the Martial Arts. There are many factors that lead to advancement. Some factors we can change, but some will always be there. Let’s discuss a few factors that might be obstacles for yourself or your child.
The first one is a matter of the chemical makeup of one’s brain. You cannot teach a child to be more competitive by nature, however, that’s not to say that we can’t encourage it. Although it may not seem that some students are outwardly competitive, that doesn’t mean that he or she can’t set and achieve intrinsic goals for themselves. This is where Martial Artists excel. The nice thing about our program at Kempo Defense Systems, is that we realize that each of our students are very different and their needs as Martial Artists vary. Some need self control more than others.
While some may need to work more on their focus and paying attention to simple directions, or some might lack in motor skill coordination. As Martial Artists and parents, it is quite evident to us what child has what need. These needs are not weaknesses or character flaws, but merely what individualizes all of us as human beings.
Another factor that may lead to a slower rank progression in the Martial Arts is a very simple one to recognize. Some students don’t have the drive to practice at home. They may be spread too thin with school activities or a hectic family schedule, they may have to many distractions at home with the television, computer or video games. Whatever the case may be, Martial Arts is like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it.
And finally, the level of maturity of a student has a lot to do with rank progression. Age is definitely a factor, but what better way to grow in maturity than in an activity that positively reinforces self control, discipline, manners, respect and healthy physical activity.
Bottom line is that we are all different, and we can’t measure our own personal growth against someone else’s benchmark. That’s not fair to anyone. Our promise to you as parents is an easy one to keep. We will never test a student that isn’t ready to test, and we will never hold back a student from testing that’s ready. Personal growth in the Martial Arts is just that, personal. I encourage your comments and appreciate that as parents, you hate to see your child not test when others are testing, I have children in the martial arts as well, and have felt that way also. I assure you that I have no personal favorites, I enjoy the opportunity I have to interface with all my students, and each one is equally as valuable to me. That is why when they work harder to achieve what seems unattainable to them; they have a better sense of accomplishment and a clearer view of how hard work pays off in every aspect of their lives. This is a knowledge that can’t be bought or learned in any school. This only comes from personal experience
As young Martial Artists your students will learn very valuable life lessons. They will learn to deal with the disappointment that comes part and parcel with any sports or academic program. They will not always test with other students at the same time. But unlike any other sport, they hold the key to their own success. There is no team to depend on or to let them down. A Martial Artist learns to become self reliant, this builds their confidence and their self esteem. These are all basic needs, remember how thrilled your child was when they learned to tie their own shoes or ride their bike solo. This is the same feeling that they will get every time they reach a new milestone in the martial arts.
If I give a student something that they haven’t strived hard for, I am sending out a message that good things come with minimal effort. That would be great injustice, one I’m not willing to deal them. What I will do for my students is teach them that hard work pays off, and that if you want something bad enough it can be yours, but you have to be willing to trade hard work for reward. In the end, they will become better and more productive members of society knowing the best things in life come from the fruits of their labors.

[Milt G.]

This is my official first post!
I just ran this article in my school news letter after I lost a student because she was passed over for testing.
The Importance of Rank Testing
Sensei Brian
When will my child be ready to test?

It is very important to understand that not everyone will progress at the same speed through the ranks in the Martial Arts. There are many factors that lead to advancement. Some factors we can change, but some will always be there. Let’s discuss a few factors that might be obstacles for yourself or your child.
The first one is a matter of the chemical makeup of one’s brain. You cannot teach a child to be more competitive by nature, however, that’s not to say that we can’t encourage it. Although it may not seem that some students are outwardly competitive, that doesn’t mean that he or she can’t set and achieve intrinsic goals for themselves. This is where Martial Artists excel. The nice thing about our program at Kempo Defense Systems, is that we realize that each of our students are very different and their needs as Martial Artists vary. Some need self control more than others.
While some may need to work more on their focus and paying attention to simple directions, or some might lack in motor skill coordination. As Martial Artists and parents, it is quite evident to us what child has what need. These needs are not weaknesses or character flaws, but merely what individualizes all of us as human beings.
Another factor that may lead to a slower rank progression in the Martial Arts is a very simple one to recognize. Some students don’t have the drive to practice at home. They may be spread too thin with school activities or a hectic family schedule, they may have to many distractions at home with the television, computer or video games. Whatever the case may be, Martial Arts is like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it.
And finally, the level of maturity of a student has a lot to do with rank progression. Age is definitely a factor, but what better way to grow in maturity than in an activity that positively reinforces self control, discipline, manners, respect and healthy physical activity.
Bottom line is that we are all different, and we can’t measure our own personal growth against someone else’s benchmark. That’s not fair to anyone. Our promise to you as parents is an easy one to keep. We will never test a student that isn’t ready to test, and we will never hold back a student from testing that’s ready. Personal growth in the Martial Arts is just that, personal. I encourage your comments and appreciate that as parents, you hate to see your child not test when others are testing, I have children in the martial arts as well, and have felt that way also. I assure you that I have no personal favorites, I enjoy the opportunity I have to interface with all my students, and each one is equally as valuable to me. That is why when they work harder to achieve what seems unattainable to them; they have a better sense of accomplishment and a clearer view of how hard work pays off in every aspect of their lives. This is a knowledge that can’t be bought or learned in any school. This only comes from personal experience
As young Martial Artists your students will learn very valuable life lessons. They will learn to deal with the disappointment that comes part and parcel with any sports or academic program. They will not always test with other students at the same time. But unlike any other sport, they hold the key to their own success. There is no team to depend on or to let them down. A Martial Artist learns to become self reliant, this builds their confidence and their self esteem. These are all basic needs, remember how thrilled your child was when they learned to tie their own shoes or ride their bike solo. This is the same feeling that they will get every time they reach a new milestone in the martial arts.
If I give a student something that they haven’t strived hard for, I am sending out a message that good things come with minimal effort. That would be great injustice, one I’m not willing to deal them. What I will do for my students is teach them that hard work pays off, and that if you want something bad enough it can be yours, but you have to be willing to trade hard work for reward. In the end, they will become better and more productive members of society knowing the best things in life come from the fruits of their labors.


Hello,

Well put, and a good post! Thank you.

Milt G.

[tonbo]

I'd weigh in on the "long enough" angle...

Yes, I think that there should be "average" times...guidelines, more or less, just to work out how long it should take to cover the material in suitable depth. As an instructor, you want to be sure that your students understand what is being taught in the techniques, not just that they are able to mimic the movements well enough. (Well, ok, at least I would HOPE that people would want that....)

Some instructors may move people along faster or slower, depending on their knowledge of the material and abilities. I don't think that anyone should necessarily be held back or held to strict guidelines if they have proven that they have met the standards; conversely, I don't believe someone should be promoted based on length of time in a belt. Bad juju either way, IMHO.

If it's done right, I would think that the final decision would be the instructor's unbiased discretion -- that the instructor would ok for testing all those that were ready for testing, not just those that were most persistent in asking, or those longest in the rank, etc.

As always, just my opinion.

Peace--

--Tonbo