View Full Version : Hand conditioning and toughening & MA
Is hand conditioning and toughening necessary to develop the natural weapons? And if so, what are some good ways to obtain this hand conditioning and toughening? Is it a good idea to strike a steel bar for thirty minutes a day with the side of your hand as one MA teacher I know does? Is it good to thrust an open hand into a bucket of rice and later a bucket of gravel as some so? What are good, safe ways to condition and toughen your natural weapons if this is indeed desireable? All opinions appreciated.
blindsage
09-22-2009, 08:18 PM
It is absolutely not necessary to do this kind of conditioning. I've heard there can be some minor drawbacks, but there's nothing really wrong with doing it either. If you want to do it you need to find a qualified teacher so you don't do unnecessary damage to your hands.
elder999
09-22-2009, 08:24 PM
Well, the first question would be, conditioning and toughening your hands for what, exactly?
Is it for tameshiwari, or combat sport, or self-defense?
In any case, you should do it under the supervision of a qualified teacher-preferably one in his 50's who doesn't have arthritis or calcification. Both the methods you've described can result in a variety of long-term damage-not injuries, which can heal, but damage , if not done correctly:those "minor drawbacks" blindsage spoke of. In fact, I'd say to avoid any training of this sort with metal.
If you want this, find a teacher. Preferably one in CMA, where the process will take years, but get done properly.
And, no, it's not necessary.
Xinglu
09-22-2009, 08:50 PM
It is never a good idea to do iron palm training without herbs and and experienced teacher. I have done iron palm training for 12 years, I have no problems with my hands. My Shifu has done it for 40 years and his hands are stronger, nimbler, and have less problems then people half his age!
Make sure that when you train you use a proper pre soak, and a good Die Da Jiu 跌打酒
suicide
09-22-2009, 09:06 PM
OUCH ! but you know what they say : no pain no gain ...
Well, the first question would be, conditioning and toughening your hands for what, exactly?
Is it for tameshiwari, or combat sport, or self-defense?
In any case, you should do it under the supervision of a qualified teacher-preferably one in his 50's who doesn't have arthritis or calcification. Both the methods you've described can result in a variety of long-term damage-not injuries, which can heal, but damage , if not done correctly:those "minor drawbacks" blindsage spoke of. In fact, I'd say to avoid any training of this sort with metal.
If you want this, find a teacher. Preferably one in CMA, where the process will take years, but get done properly.
And, no, it's not necessary.
Conditioning for self defense
Though not for everyone, I like Knuckle Push-Ups. They condition the fist without the cracking impact of hitting something as solid as steel or stone. I also am an artist and architectural AutoCad draftsman, if I were to injure my right hand, I would not be able to earn my livlihood.
Take care of your hands (weapons) so they take care of you. Many traditions of extreme hand conditioning were developed in times when many did not live long enough for the (damage) bodys break down to pain them in old age. Many had to have a fist of stone to survive, but we do not always need to be that hardened just to train and live.
If you bother to condition the hand, be sure to research for a qualified instructor to help you. Many people get the idea of extreme conditioning = BAD### so they dive in without thought. i see many in Muay Thai claiming if you do not condition the shins on the coke bottle you are killing Muay Thai. That is more of a bravado thing. Likewise, someone in full contact Karate feels if your knuckles are not cracked and callused then you are not doing right by the art. Again, bravado.
Such extreme conditioning is not required, but some milder conditioning such as knuckle push-ups, wrapping hands and working a bag etc... are enough to keep from having hands of glass. I think that is more important than having hands of granite.
Xinglu
09-23-2009, 02:24 AM
Though not for everyone, I like Knuckle Push-Ups. They condition the fist without the cracking impact of hitting something as solid as steel or stone. I also am an artist and architectural AutoCad draftsman, if I were to injure my right hand, I would not be able to earn my livlihood.
Take care of your hands (weapons) so they take care of you. Many traditions of extreme hand conditioning were developed in times when many did not live long enough for the (damage) bodys break down to pain them in old age. Many had to have a fist of stone to survive, but we do not always need to be that hardened just to train and live.
If you bother to condition the hand, be sure to research for a qualified instructor to help you. Many people get the idea of extreme conditioning = BAD### so they dive in without thought. i see many in Muay Thai claiming if you do not condition the shins on the coke bottle you are killing Muay Thai. That is more of a bravado thing. Likewise, someone in full contact Karate feels if your knuckles are not cracked and callused then you are not doing right by the art. Again, bravado.
Such extreme conditioning is not required, but some milder conditioning such as knuckle push-ups, wrapping hands and working a bag etc... are enough to keep from having hands of glass. I think that is more important than having hands of granite.
My hands are not gnarled or rough, neither are my Shifu's. In fact the only people I have seen with mangled hands are those not doing it right.
My Shifu has a saying, Iron Palm should not interfere with calligraphy.
Josh Oakley
09-23-2009, 03:50 AM
It is never a good idea to do iron palm training without herbs and and experienced teacher. I have done iron palm training for 12 years, I have no problems with my hands. My Shifu has done it for 40 years and his hands are stronger, nimbler, and have less problems then people half his age!
Make sure that when you train you use a proper pre soak, and a good Die Da Jiu 跌打酒
Absolutely right. did it without herbs or an instructor. Now I can punch brick or stucco without opening the skin, but the trade-off is that my hands are like sandpaper, I have to be careful when I handle one of my really young students, or I'll accidentaly scratch and hurt them. I did that to my wife, too, untill your skin got used to it. I hadn't even known there was another way until years later. Now nothing I do has managed to heal my hands.
Is hand conditioning and toughening necessary to develop the natural weapons? And if so, what are some good ways to obtain this hand conditioning and toughening? Is it a good idea to strike a steel bar for thirty minutes a day with the side of your hand as one MA teacher I know does? Is it good to thrust an open hand into a bucket of rice and later a bucket of gravel as some so? What are good, safe ways to condition and toughen your natural weapons if this is indeed desireable? All opinions appreciated.
Do you have to do this training? Not at all. Everyone will have their reasons for doing it or not. However, IMO, I feel that before anything like this is done, you need to get training from a qualified person. I dont feel that any book or online advice is better than working with someone who knows what they're doing. Keep in mind, you're talking about your hands here. One mistake and you could end up with an injury or something that'll effect you as you age.
Keep in mind, you're talking about your hands here. One mistake and you could end up with an injury or something that'll effect you as you age.[/quote]
I'm 46, I'm already aging! I agree it should only be done with the supervision of someone who knows what they are doing. I think thrusting an open hand into a bag of rice though would be pretty safe.
Keep in mind, you're talking about your hands here. One mistake and you could end up with an injury or something that'll effect you as you age.
I'm 46, I'm already aging! I agree it should only be done with the supervision of someone who knows what they are doing. I think thrusting an open hand into a bag of rice though would be pretty safe.[/quote]
Oh come on now...you make it sound as if you're ancient. LOL! All kidding aside...I'm sure the rice is pretty harmless. I'm no iron palm master, but like anything, I'd think there would be proper hand position, technique, etc. for doing this, as eventually you're going to start using stuff other than rice.
BLACK LION
09-23-2009, 09:41 PM
I always liked striking sandbags then move to gravel bags... This is for the hands, fists and fingers. I also like to use trees for conditioning various areas.
Makiwara boards are good too but you can also wrap rope around a smaller tree and go to town...
I wouldnt punch steel or bricks or anything like that as you will do more harm than good in the long run... and the short run;)
The goal is to line your hard parts with thier soft parts... keeping this in mind you do not need to be able to uppercut through 8 cinderblocks to have an effect on your target...
I wouldnt punch steel or bricks or anything like that as you will do more harm than good in the long run... and the short run;)
The goal is to line your hard parts with thier soft parts... keeping this in mind you do not need to be able to uppercut through 8 cinderblocks to have an effect on your target...
The teacher I know who strikes a steel bar for thirty minutes a day uses the side of his hand. It is more a chop than a punch, the impact hits the side of the hand, not the knuckles. He hits a makiwara board for long lengths of time, rain or shine, outside in Seatle in his backyard. Gets kind of wet at times, but he likes the rain.
Em MacIntosh
09-24-2009, 03:10 PM
As far as physics are concerned you can hit just as hard regardless (technique aside). The reason to condition the hands is for your own "comfort" by minimising the pain of impact and likelyhood of injury. This allows your psychology to feel you can hit harder. I made a hobby out of breaking and feel I've been very fortunate not to have injured myself because I've had minimal instruction. I was conditioning my hands like the imperial guard for a while and have since given it a break because it was starting to affect my dexterity. I don't think I have any significant permanent damage but that has yet to be seen. I like using bare knuckles on a canvas bag to impact-train the cartilage of the carpals (wrists) and help callous the knuckles but I'm not into hitting !hard! objects for conditioning anymore. That being said you can train your hands progressively but without instruction you might pay a high price for it.
Live True
09-24-2009, 07:42 PM
Joab, I just starting doing some of the hand/leg conditioning with my current sensei, and I have to emphasize the importance of a good instructor. Take what I say, below, as coming from a newbie in this type of conditioning.
After my first session, I went home and got..shall we say, a bit overeager with my practice and ended up with some lovely bruised, broken (skin, not bone), and battered knuckles. After this, my instructor was a bit more specific (she didn't expect me to be so....eager...after only one session with her), and she reminded me that this is a process that will take YEARS. It should be a daily, gentle, repetitive practice, as you are working to strengthen the underlying structures. I currently use a rope wrapped wooden pole for my practice...as the rope adds some give into the harder surface.
You are not trying to build up callouses and scars. It is my understanding you are trying to encourage your bones to build up calcified tissue in thin plates. This build up strengthens the bones in small ways. It will not prevent damage, but it does make the bones stronger in areas that have been conditioned and more resistent/tougher. I've been told that such conditioning, done properly, also helps the muscles, but I have not found anything to verify that or how it benefits.
As for the pre soak, herbs and Die Da Jiu..I have to admit I am aware such things exist, but don't truly know anything about it...will be asking my instructor for information as I'm not sure that was part of her training...is there anyplace I can get a start on some information....and then seek out a good source for better information?
Although I am no hardcore CMA stylist w/ access to Shifus (Sifus) who imports his own herbs and dit da jows etc... anymore, I have meet men like Master Tai Yim and his brother, who were the ones who kept myself and my training partners in tiger balm and even a more fluid Dit Da Jow I used only once as a teen, tiger balm has never been too far from me, lol.
I have trained old school TSD,MDk, Isshin Ryu, Amateur Boxing Fed, etc... as a teen I conditioned fists forearms shins (even Muay Thai & Bama Lethwei) etc... and more recently (past two years) I have worked a mook jong (WC/JF/JKD) a great deal. Some knuckle conditioning from the form where there are a few punches, but I have seen that my palm strike to the body has increased in its overall strength. Conditioning has its place.
Like another member said "All in moderation" do not destroy yourself thru conditioning. Most of us will never truely need the extreme conditioning from some arts just to live. If I had to condition that hard for day to day life in self preservation, I should just go to war with the world.
I want to live as well as just survive. I had seen the aged in many sports and athletics, It is sad to see some fall from such powerfull youthfull strength and conditioning, but we all must answer to age. Those who condition well, not over condition, and are flexible , strong and healthy (as one member noted about his instructor) at an older age are blessed. Many do not survive their sport, art etc... with such a blessing of life without nearly crippling ache.
Condition well, live even better. PEACE
Shotgun Buddha
09-25-2009, 11:35 AM
Its a very important fact to remember that human hands are not designed for hitting things. They are designed for picking up harder/pointier objects and hitting with those instead.
When confronted with the fact that punching a very solid head with our not so solid fists hurts alot, there's a number of ways we can choose to deal with it.
The one which hand conditioning espouses is to make our fists a distinctly more solid object.
Its important to remember however that many of these practices from times when variously there was a shorter life expectancy, and/or a slightly less detailed knowledge of how our bodies function.
This means that the longer term effects of such practices may not have been explored or documented too thoroughly. Especially given that most information regarding the practices is anectdotal, and that there's been no proper detailed surveys and investigations that I know of.
If anyone has a link to one I'd quite like to read it?
But there is a fair chance that such practices can mangle the hand, and till more info is available, I'd be wary of going that route.
Another solution and the one I endorse ( so you know its good) ;) is that of not trying to hit really hard objects with your fist. Use the less breakable parts instead, like hitting with the heel of your palm instead.
Or more enjoyably hit them with your elbows and knees instead.
Save your fist for hitting the soft parts, and working the body instead.
And third of course the historical favourite of hitting them with a rock instead. Low-tech yes, but it retains that nostalgiac charm of a time when men were men, women only slightly less hairy than men, and nature was something that tried to eat you.
LawDog
09-25-2009, 01:43 PM
I would and have stated that it is needed. I am 60 and have been doing this since the early 70's. I have no hand deformity and my last medical exam showed that I have no arthritis in either of my hands.
Some would say that they would rather chance a broken hand in a fight that have to endure hand conditioning training.
Broken hand = lost fight.
Just my 2 cents.
DeLamar.J
10-26-2009, 06:38 PM
Conditioning should be the very first thing you learn, because it will improve what skills you already have in a short amount of time. I think its best to give people fast results. expose them to some weight training, medicine ball, push ups and situps, 3 star, shin kicking and punching a bag, jumping rope, ect.
You can have a nice roundhouse, but when someone blocks it with a conditioned arm, your leg is out for the count if your not conditioned. I bet you could take a decent football player into some karate schools, and and watch him beat up on alot of the blacks belts only because he is used to smashing his body into other people and taking bumps and bruises. And win with little or no technique only because he is conditioned.
Conditioning should be the very first thing you learn.
Bruno@MT
10-26-2009, 06:47 PM
While conditioning is necessary, it should not be taken to the extreme imo.
When Takamatsu sensei was a youngster, he conditioned his hands by stabbing his hands in a bucket of small pebbles, or so the story goes. He reportedly needed pliers to cut his fingernails.
Even he argued that that sort of extreme conditioning is no longer necessary, because the kind of combat where that conditioning pays off no longer existed, and with people living to a relatively old age, the damage got to be a serious hindrance.
Personally, I prefer hitting a heavy bag or makiwara style target. That way, you get conditioning and punching practise in one.
Brandon Fisher
10-27-2009, 06:26 PM
I highly recomend makiwara training for conditioning and for perfection of technique. There are draw backs if you take it to fast or the extreme on conditioning though. Take a look at these videos:
Hanshi Tetsuhiro Hokama, 10th Dan Okinawa Goju Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1s8jLXlE0I
Conditioning - Uechi Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2rovVDZYI&feature=PlayList&p=8A0B4D0AD798A14C&index=5&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL
Hope this helps
prokarateshop
10-27-2009, 11:26 PM
A lot of these techniques seem very extreme. I think if you training correctly, your entire body will be conditioned
Brandon Fisher
10-27-2009, 11:36 PM
The ones I posted are very extreme
Is hand conditioning and toughening necessary to develop the natural weapons? And if so, what are some good ways to obtain this hand conditioning and toughening? Is it a good idea to strike a steel bar for thirty minutes a day with the side of your hand as one MA teacher I know does? Is it good to thrust an open hand into a bucket of rice and later a bucket of gravel as some so? What are good, safe ways to condition and toughen your natural weapons if this is indeed desireable? All opinions appreciated.
Why not shoot a message to Dale Dugas. He's a super nice guy & an excellent source of hand conditioning information.
tomlaat
07-06-2010, 02:51 PM
Hey colleagues.
There is this movie on youtube where this guy is doing a workout on a pallet, it’s called “pallet destruction” www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cbzDoEymcg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cbzDoEymcg), did anyone hear of this training?
His foot beats a sledgehammer, anyone?
Thanks, Tom.
Chris Parker
07-07-2010, 12:14 AM
Hi Tom,
I don't really know that I would go so far as to describe the clip as "training", what we're talking about here is conditioning the striking surfaces of the body so as to not damage them when striking, as well as hardening them to do more damage, whereas our young lad in the clip seems more to be exploiting a structural weakness in the pallet construction, is wearing heavy-heeled boots, and is kicking/stomping in a very non-martial arts way (very off balance, and honestly he can get more power if he gets his mechanics right...).
So while he certainly seems to be having fun, it is a fair bit removed from the concepts we're discussing here. And as to the "beats a sledgehammer and shotgun" comments on the clip description, well, I'm not convinced that is tested. I just think they put it there cause it sounds cool.
Bruno@MT
07-07-2010, 02:39 AM
His foot does not beat a sledgehammer.
He just kicks the euro pallet to bits with his heel, which is honestly something that anyone can do if he wears hard heel boots or hiking shoes. I've done it myself, though I didn't bother to snap every single plank.
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