I recall hearing it often said that there are four major styles of Okinawan karate; in chronological order, Shorin-ryu and its sub-styles, Goju-ryu and its sub-styles, Uechi-ryu and its (few) sub-styles, and Isshin-ryu and its (few if any) sub-styles.

Would anyone contest this? We hear more and more today about Ryukyu kempo (under various names) and of course there are other Okinawan styles extant that are not sub-styles of any of these four, but would people agree that these are the four major Okinawan styles?

I would agree that they are the four major Okinawan styles of today, since you can still find schools from each system in Okinawa.

I had more to say, but my brain locked up on me.

Cthulhu

I agree but what about Te dose it still exsist as a style/system of its own in Okinawa?
Any one know if the Okinwan ryukian do karate do association still exsists
Shadow

To me, 'Te' (sometimes 'ti) is a generic term used to describe the majority of early Okinawan martial arts. So, there is no one style of 'Te'...it's used similar to the word 'karate'. It describes a group of styles with a common foundation, but not any individual style.

Cthulhu

Well, there is Shito Ryu founded in ( 1926) by Mabuni Kenwa Shorinji Kempo and Okinawan Kempo! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Originally posted by Chiduce

Well, there is Shito Ryu founded in ( 1926) by Mabuni Kenwa Shorinji Kempo and Okinawan Kempo! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Shorinji Kempo is Japanese, and is supposedly based off of Shaolin chuan-fa. I have yet to hear of a school in Okinawa billing itself as Okinawan kempo.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Shorinji Kempo is Japanese, and is supposedly based off of Shaolin chuan-fa. I have yet to hear of a school in Okinawa billing itself as Okinawan kempo.

Cthulhu Sorry, the spelling is Shorenji Kempo, it may have been a misprint; yet the country of it's origin says The Ryukyu Archepeligo or Islands. My source is "Shorin-Ryu Okinawan Karate Question And Answer Book, page 81"! It Lists Shorenji Ryu under Shito-Ryu; yet it does not list a date or founder! As far as Okinawan Kempo, the lineage states back to bushi and nabe matsumura and choki motobu and was founded by Shigeru Nakamura! Though is seems to be of chinese and okinawan origin during the time when okinawa was a tributary state of china. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

My second instructor studyed Shorenji kempo in Okinawa but did not learn any of the history of the style. Thus some of my earliest posts and questions on this forum He studied in the early to mid 50's.
Shadow

Originally posted by Cthulhu

To me, 'Te' (sometimes 'ti) is a generic term used to describe the majority of early Okinawan martial arts. So, there is no one style of 'Te'...it's used similar to the word 'karate'. It describes a group of styles with a common foundation, but not any individual style.



A few years ago, I ran into a couple of styles that labeled themselves as Te, or okinawa Te, to distance themseves from karate in general (okinawan karate aswell), but Im afraid I have lost all references and dont remember any names.

I do recall that they used no (or almost no) kata, but other than that I could not see any real difference other uchinadi/okinawan karate.

I have also seen some styles that refuse to be called karate, but use the older term toude.
Once again, I have no idea what they are about or what differs them from other okinawan karate (or how they fit into the okinawan martial art society).

Actually I believe Isshin is a substyle hybrid style, one of its components being Goju.

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

I think this is correct--and there are Shorin influences too I believe--but it seems that people consistently list Shorin, Goju, Uechi, and Isshin as the four main styles. The first three are fairly independent of one another, though there was clearly cross-fdertilization of the styles that were precursors of Shorin and Goju, but Isshin is descended from previous arts, so I agree with you in that regard.

Originally posted by Chiduce

Sorry, the spelling is Shorenji Kempo, it may have been a misprint; yet the country of it's origin says The Ryukyu Archepeligo or Islands. My source is "Shorin-Ryu Okinawan Karate Question And Answer Book, page 81"! It Lists Shorenji Ryu under Shito-Ryu; yet it does not list a date or founder! As far as Okinawan Kempo, the lineage states back to bushi and nabe matsumura and choki motobu and was founded by Shigeru Nakamura! Though is seems to be of chinese and okinawan origin during the time when okinawa was a tributary state of china. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

I am not to sure about the four major styles but I can tell you that "Shorenji" is Japanese for Shoalin.

Kempo/ Kenpo is the same character in Okinawa as the one the Chinese use for Quan fa, which means "fist law" or "way of the fist".

I think you will find that most of the Ryukyu styles, are just styles as practised in the Ryukyu Kingdom, rather than a specific style. Much the same as "Karate" has many styles under it's umbrella.

For further in depth information, you should read, The Bubishi, by Patrick McCarthy. Once you get through all the pats on the back that the author gives himself, it makes for a great read.

Hope this helps.
--Dave


:asian:

There is also a system that uses the old Okinawan term 'udun di' (Motobu Ryu Udun Di).

Shorinji Kempo is pretty much a direct Japanese translation of Shaolin Chuan Fa. It is a Japanese, not Okinawan, system and it isn't very old at all.

Cthulhu

I studied Shorinji Kempo for 2 years under someone who studied it while stationed in Japan. It is a relatively new art (like all of them) that was created by So Doshin <A title of some sort>, a Japanese intelligence agent spying on the Chinese. One of his 'covers' was that of a monk and he spent a great deal of time in Temples and studied the martial arts. Like the founder of Shotokan, he was dismayed at what had become of the Japanese society after the war and so he created Shorinji Kempo. Due to the fact that there was a time period in the 1900s where the study of martial arts was illegal, he claimed that it was a religion... often times you will see its black belts wearing the brown habits of monks over their Gi's tied off with long ropes.

Its a small martial art primarily because of the extremely tight reign its Hombu keeps on its members. So Doshin claims that the Grand Master of one of the Chinese Temples He trained at named him his successor, but on the GrandMaster's death his son took the title.

The system is very similar to hapkido, but not flexible at all. It doesn't teach, nor does it allow variations. It primarily relies on Joint manipulations and basic kicks, punches, and blocks. It only has 3 Kyu Levels (Brown Belts) for adults.. more for children... Its forms are continuous forms that allow the Kempo-ka and his bunkai to go back and forth in a never ending circle.

Originally posted by Cthulhu

To me, 'Te' (sometimes 'ti) is a generic term used to describe the majority of early Okinawan martial arts. So, there is no one style of 'Te'...it's used similar to the word 'karate'. It describes a group of styles with a common foundation, but not any individual style.

Cthulhu


I have read that Ti was the forunner to Karate. It seems plausible since many Ti styles do not resemble Karate very much.

Originally posted by Chiduce

Well, there is Shito Ryu founded in ( 1926) by Mabuni Kenwa Shorinji Kempo and Okinawan Kempo! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Shorinji Kempo was developed by Do Shin So and is very Japanese. He claims to have learned his art from the Shao lin temple in China.
Like many people I am doubtful of this claim since what he taught is different than what the Shao lin temple taught.
A good documentary on Shorinji Kempo was done by the BBC in their series "The Way of the Warrior".
Do Shin So's daughter is now the "Head Master" although she does not practice the art herself.
Actually Mr. Turner they are a very large group, several million members, and a very rich one. They claim to be a religious organization and therefore are tax exempt under Japanese law. (BTW, after WWII Karate and Shorinji Kempo were the only martial arts NOT banned from practicing by the GHQ)


In Okinawa there is a group that goes by the name of Shorinji Ryu no relation to Shorinji Kempo. They do have Shorinji Kempo clubs on Okinawa but they are of the above mentioned Japanese style.

Okinawa Kempo was developed by Nakamura Shigeru. Mr. Nakamura is mentioned in Mark Bishop's book Okinawan Karate. A good book to have BTW.


As for the 4 styles in Okinawa................politically I guess you could say that.
My teacher has always enforced on us the "All Karate is one".

All Karate is One! I hear that more often about Japanese Jujutsu.

I wouldn't agree--uech-ryu especially is too different. Throw it out and I'd be more sympathetic to the idea.

Well, there is Shito Ryu founded in ( 1926) by Mabuni Kenwa Shorinji Kempo and Okinawan Kempo! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
Actually Shito-ryu is based on Shorin-ryu from Anko Itosu and Naha-te from Seisho Aragaki. He also picked up some kata from the Ryuei-ryu style. It has both Okinawan and Japanese sub-systems. They share many kata and a common lineage, btu they also have many differences.

I believe that there are only three main style, but many sub-styles. I go a step further back and divide them into: Shuri-te, Tomari-te, and Naha-te. While most of Shuri-te and Tomari-te are today called Shorin-ryu the styles that have come out of these distinct areas have differences in kata and bunkai. This is why Shorin-ryu has three main branches: Shobayashi, Kobayashi, and Mastubayashi.

The same can be said of Naha-te, aka Shorei-ryu. Uechi-ryu, Goju-ryu, Ryuei-ryu all have some similarities, but they have to many differences to be called the same.

Styles like Shito-ryu, Chito-ryu, Isshin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo/Kenpo, are all some combination of these. The level of influence from one area is dependant on the time each founder spent with his different instructors.

You're talking about traditional styles, some of which are not, or only barely, extant. I might well agree with you in that sense ! But I was discussing today's four major styles.

This is why Shorin-ryu has three main branches: Shobayashi, Kobayashi, and Mastubayashi.


I would say it has four, or even five, main branches:

Shobayashi, Kobayashi, Matsubayashi and Seibukan. The fifth might be Isshin ryu

All Karate is One! I hear that more often about Japanese Jujutsu.

I wouldn't agree--uech-ryu especially is too different. Throw it out and I'd be more sympathetic to the idea.

Well, I don't know. If we consider only the outside form, sure they're all different, but maybe what is inside is not so different. The principles are the same in all: kata is a key element, kicks, blocks and punches play a major part in all and so on

The fifth might be Isshin ryu
Only at a very gross level. I think it's earned the right to be called its own art, even though it does have a significant historical debt.

The vertical punch, and modified angles of the fist on the blocks...the more forward-facing stance...tatsuo Shimabuku's imprint is on it.

Well, I don't know. If we consider only the outside form, sure they're all different, but maybe what is inside is not so different. The principles are the same in all: kata is a key element, kicks, blocks and punches play a major part in all and so on
I can agree to an extent...Karate is clearly correctly grouped together, taxonomically speaking; it is one general system. But each art is different. Compare Goju-ryu to Uechi-ryu. They look very different in many important ways, even if they do look more similar to one anotehr than either does to Silat.

Only at a very gross level. I think it's earned the right to be called its own art, even though it does have a significant historical debt..

I've never seen Isshin ryu, so my viewpoint was mainly it's lineage. But from my limited understanding I think you're right, and that's why I said that it might be considered a Shorin system. Then again, I guess it could be considered to be an off-shoot of Goju also

Yeah, my recollection is that both sides influenced it. But, it's been a looooong time since I studied it!

I would like to see Isshin ryu, actually, but it's not to be found here in Finland. The thing that intrigues me about it is that it combines Shorin and Goju traditions and I think it was last summer during one seminar that a Finnish Goju instructor told us that you don't often see someone who is good at Shorin kata and who is also good at Goju kata, because they're like two different car engines. That was, of course, only his opinion, but I guess he has a point

My base art was called Ryukai Kenpo and was very light on kata. The history I was told was that it was a fusion between Te and Shaolin martial arts.

I was not introduced to full kata until I had spent 5 years in the system. Learning the first kata was part of finishing the Seigansha (petitioning student) stage of training.

Subsequent research on my part has led me to believe that it is a hybrid of Kojo-ryu (or something similar, since a few of the animal styles referenced in training are not used in any other Okinawan art) and jujutsu. My teacher's teach was Japanese and not Okinawan, so this seems plausible.

After quite a bit of reading I think that Okinawa had at least two unarmed and one armed martial arts with little or no kata: Te, Tegumi and Okinawan weapon techniques. Very few threads of these arts remain; modern Tegumi is now called "Okinawan sumo" despite the fact that it isn't much like Japanese sumo. Tegumi matches were central to my own training. Patrick McCarthy believes that early Thai and Indochinese arts may have informed te training, and demonstrations of krabi krabong and muay boran do look somewhat technically familiar to me.

In my personal view, form-oriented Chinese martial arts really took root some time in the 18th century and were combined with te in a haphazard fashion. It looks like early to-te masters cherry-picked kata that fit their te-informed fighting methodologies. It also looks like the central point of karate transmission through the Meiji period was through people with close ties to the Japanese administration, while te was left to wither on the vine. Nowadays, I'd say that pure te died with Seikichi Uehara. This is a pity, because the te/tegumi elements I've seen in my own training, in articles and elsewhere are radically different from contemporary karate: far more relaxed, little emphasis on kata and in terms of custom, somewhat more informal.

The fifth might be Isshin ryu
If it were not for the heavy Goju influence I might agree. It is still a blend like many other styles.