Do all fights end up on the ground?

[Joab]

In my experience seeing and being part of a whole lot of fights in a fairly tough Junior High and High School, most, but not all fights ended up on the ground. When I bounced this question off a Wing Chun Sifu many years ago before the current ground fighting craze, he said that is what happens when you have two inexperienced fighters. he went on to say he had been in a lot of fights but he never went to the ground, and that you don't want to go to the ground because "his buddies can kick the crap out of you." This happened to me once in Junior High, a kid picked a fight with me, even throwing the first punch, and when I got him to the ground and put him in a head lock his female companion had fun kicking me over and over again. The kicks hurt, girls can kick hard, most definitely.

I would say that it is a good idea to know what to do if you end up on the ground even if it is less than desireable in a self defense scenario, but no, not all fights inevitably end up on the ground. All opinions appreciated.

[xJOHNx]

No.

When in a fight, I just take distance when the other fellow is on the ground. I have no intention of going there for the reason you mentioned.

The ground is a good place to finish someone, but I have no intention of staying there because it leaves my defense vunerable. But A decent knowledge of ground training is a good idea, when it would happen that I'm not able to take distance.

[chrispillertkd]

Do all fights end up on the ground? No.

The figure that the Gracies were throwing around of something like 90% of all fights ending up on the ground was, IIRC, based on law enforcement figures which are really the only reliable statistics we have on this topic. They are, however, based on altercations involving law enforcement personnel who are specifically trying to get the person prone in order to cuff them.

As was mentioned before, if you go prone in a fight and the person has a friend with him you are in for a world of hurt.

Pax,

Chris

[Bill Mattocks]

This is a MA newbie talking, feel free to disregard.

Do all fights end up on the ground? No. And my style (isshinryu) teaches to fight standing up. We don't have a much of a ground game, strictly speaking (although our sensei teaches a variety of ground techniques, they are not 'isshinryu' per se).

However, I think it is fair to say that any fight COULD end up on the ground, no matter how much you might try to keep it standing up. Anything could happen, right?

For this reason, I am hoping to do some cross-training eventually in some form of MA that has more emphasis on ground-fighting. It doesn't hurt to be able to grapple if you need to.

[Big Don]

I was about to say:
Only for one participant, but, that isn't true either.

[MJS]

In my experience seeing and being part of a whole lot of fights in a fairly tough Junior High and High School, most, but not all fights ended up on the ground. When I bounced this question off a Wing Chun Sifu many years ago before the current ground fighting craze, he said that is what happens when you have two inexperienced fighters. he went on to say he had been in a lot of fights but he never went to the ground, and that you don't want to go to the ground because "his buddies can kick the crap out of you." This happened to me once in Junior High, a kid picked a fight with me, even throwing the first punch, and when I got him to the ground and put him in a head lock his female companion had fun kicking me over and over again. The kicks hurt, girls can kick hard, most definitely.

I would say that it is a good idea to know what to do if you end up on the ground even if it is less than desireable in a self defense scenario, but no, not all fights inevitably end up on the ground. All opinions appreciated.

No. The "All fights go to the ground, and 90% of them do" comments, were a result of a PD study. Yes, chances are, a cop will find most of his 'fights' on the ground, so he can cuff the badguy.

Sure, if you clinch with the guy, ie: he grabs onto you, you trip, whatever, I firmly believe that you should have an understanding of the ground. But no, me personally, I'm not intentionally going to take the guy there. If I do end up there, I'm not going to spend any more time than necessary. In other words, I'm going to do my best to get back up. I'm not going to stay there for the sake of looking for an armlock. If it presents itself, if I can get it, break the arm, etc., then sure, I'll take the gift that the guy is giving me, but I'm not going to stay there, pull him in guard, play for a few minutes, then try for that sub.

Of course, on the flip side, you have some people who think that a fight will never end up there. I find it interesting that so many people can predict the future. LOL! Personally, I dont want to assume that they won't. I'll do my best to avoid it, but I feel comfortable enough on the ground, against the average Joe, to survive, should I end up there.

[Deaf Smith]

Hopefully for at least one side it does go to the ground.

As for 'most', are we talking 51 percent? We talking muggings? Bar room fights? Police arrest (well most of them DO go to the ground, at least to put the cuffs on them.)

Go look at such places as Youtube and view the real fights (not the fake ones or the 'fight club' kind of fights.) Many fights do, but many fights don't, at least for both participants.

And even on the ground, they don't always end up like BJJ.

Deaf

[Xue Sheng]

Aaaa another question that pops up on MT every now and then

And as already answerd..... no

[Xinglu]

If you are a Judoka, Jujitsuka, or Aikidoka - yes. If you are Karateka or Kenpoka - no.

[ralphmcpherson]

I can only answer this based on fights I saw when I was younger and going out to bars , parties etc and before that when I was at school. I have never seen a fight go to the ground , Im sure some do but for me personally Ive never seen one go to the ground. Ive seen the loser land on the ground many times though.

[corwin137]

Another perspective, is that fights tend to go (but not always) where the most skilled fighter of the two tend to be comfortable. This is overstating too.

Another interesting thing- most fights are arguably not between trained "opponents". I think a lot changes if one is trained and the other is not, or if both are.

Most relevant I think is that enough fights go to the ground (intentionally, or by accident) that training on the ground is relevant. Particularly, training to get the **** up and away ASAP. Timing and access (or dealing with) tools is also a big concern here, that is not covered by a lot of systems (styles, etc ad nauseum). Training ground stuff can also quickly disintegrate into sport "fighting". This is no es bueno for t34 d34d1y str33tz. Just my .02.

[celtic_crippler]

At least one person should end up on the ground. :rolleyes:

[Omar B]

If you are in a fight that ends up on the ground, in my eyes you've failed. You've not kept the distance/range of the fight where you can control it.

[BLACK LION]

No...

You should train to fight in every conceivable way possible... from pissing down a urinal in a truck stop restroom to lying flat on your face soaking up some rays in the park and so on... there is no singular way a fight can start or ''end up''....

[myusername]

If you are in a fight that ends up on the ground, in my eyes you've failed. You've not kept the distance/range of the fight where you can control it.

I would say that if that person who ended up on the ground still managed to fight off their attacker and survive then they haven't "failed". It's a bit like saying if your attacker lands a blow on you during the fight then you have "failed" because you didn't keep distance/range. A fight is a fight not a demo or tournament. I say try to stay on your feet but if you get taken down as long as you survive, knock out the attacker or escape then you have won in my eyes.

[myusername]

No I don't think anyone can say all fights go to the ground as the definition of a fight is a broad one that needs to cover surprise ambushes/muggings right to one on one ego matches in the pub car park. With such a wide ranging potential for scenarios it isn't possible to make that claim.

I do think that it is wise to learn to fight from all ranges. That is one of the reasons I cross train in TKD and Jujutsu. I believe it to be vital for self defence to practice and know how to fight your way back to your feet. I agree that the ground is not the place you want to be in a fight/self defence situation however there is a chance you might end up there so you should know what to do.

It does amuse me when I hear the strikers claiming that they will never end up on the ground in a fight considering how many times you see TKD and karate fighters falling on the arses in sparring! Who knows what will happen in the street, you could slip or trip and it is best not feel like an upturned turtle when you have your attacker on top of you eager to inflict a beating!

[geezer]

Who can predict where a fight will go? I got into it once with a wrestler. He was determined to take me down, I was determined to fight my best standup game. We ended up both going into the pool... in mid-winter. Water maybe 40 or 45 degrees. Anyway that one ended right there with our friends helping us out of the icy water.

[JDenver]

What if it started on a hot air balloon ride?

[Omar B]

I would say that if that person who ended up on the ground still managed to fight off their attacker and survive then they haven't "failed". It's a bit like saying if your attacker lands a blow on you during the fight then you have "failed" because you didn't keep distance/range. A fight is a fight not a demo or tournament. I say try to stay on your feet but if you get taken down as long as you survive, knock out the attacker or escape then you have won in my eyes.

You are entitled to think so, but as I said, In my eyes it's a failure.

[Kwan Jang]

I love grappling and have a very well developed ground game, but I would not intentionally take the fight to the ground in a self defense situation. I am going to sprawl and if I am not successful with that, I am going to post back to my feet as quickly as possible. Both the risk from lack of mobility and the potential of enviromental damage (many grapplers often scoff at this, but ask Renzo Gracie about this) is just not worth it. Maybe if I were completely outgunned in stand up, I may consider it hoping that my opponent is one dimensional and I could take a page from a rabbit in a briar patch. Otherwise, I will leave the strategy of taking the fight to the ground for sport. Similar to high kicks, I see them as good for use in competition, but not a wise strategy for self defense.

OTOH, I believe that it is VITAL to have solid ground skills both in striking and grappling. As other posters have stated, attacks can happen anytime and anywhere and you must be prepared or at least be able to adapt to just about anything. Unless you have serious grappling skills of your own, it's very hard to keep the fight standing and if someone gets the drop on you, even then it can still happen.

[suicide]

it all depends who you fight , you could be a 10 degree karateka and that still dont ganrauntee you wont be taken to the ground , it all depends who you fight %-}

[Xinglu]

it all depends who you fight , you could be a 10 degree karateka and that still dont ganrauntee you wont be taken to the ground , it all depends who you fight %-}

Precisely, say the other guy an all-american class wrestler with a iron jaw. You had better know your ground work if you want to survive.

Omar, do you mean to imply that Judo, Jiu-jitsu, Aikido, Sambo and all other grappling arts are failures because they intend to take their opponent to the ground and finish them there?

[Xinglu]

I love grappling and have a very well developed ground game, but I would not intentionally take the fight to the ground in a self defense situation. I am going to sprawl and if I am not successful with that, I am going to post back to my feet as quickly as possible. Both the risk from lack of mobility and the potential of enviromental damage (many grapplers often scoff at this, but ask Renzo Gracie about this) is just not worth it. Maybe if I were completely outgunned in stand up, I may consider it hoping that my opponent is one dimensional and I could take a page from a rabbit in a briar patch. Otherwise, I will leave the strategy of taking the fight to the ground for sport. Similar to high kicks, I see them as good for use in competition, but not a wise strategy for self defense.

OTOH, I believe that it is VITAL to have solid ground skills both in striking and grappling. As other posters have stated, attacks can happen anytime and anywhere and you must be prepared or at least be able to adapt to just about anything. Unless you have serious grappling skills of your own, it's very hard to keep the fight standing and if someone gets the drop on you, even then it can still happen.

Yes, but a hip throw on concrete can really mess an attacker up, and plenty of chokes and breaks can be applied while standing or right after a throw leaving you in a standing position.

I think there is a misconception that grappling arts fight for SD like they do in tourneys or the MMA ring.

[Omar B]

Omar, do you mean to imply that Judo, Jiu-jitsu, Aikido, Sambo and all other grappling arts are failures because they intend to take their opponent to the ground and finish them there?

If you wanna roll around with dudes that's fine man. I said that from my perspective it's a failure. I can't for the life of me wrap my head around going to the ground or allowing yourself to be taken down in a fight. And yes, I have taken judo from the same sensei who taught me karate so I know both sides of the argument. I'm still not ever going to let a fight go to the ground or allow myself to be taken down though.

[MJS]

It does amuse me when I hear the strikers claiming that they will never end up on the ground in a fight considering how many times you see TKD and karate fighters falling on the arses in sparring! Who knows what will happen in the street, you could slip or trip and it is best not feel like an upturned turtle when you have your attacker on top of you eager to inflict a beating!

I used to go around and around with other Kenpo people, when I first came onto this forum. Hey, to each his own, but I find it interesting that people can predict the exact outcome.

Its like I always say...wrestling is taught in many schools and at the college level, MMA is huge, with people joining up at schools all the time. So the odds of facing someone with grappling skills is up there. Now, I'm not saying that I personally would take the fight there, but who the heck knows what'll happen. As you said, I may lose balance, trip, whatever, and end up there.

IMO, a loss is when the person is clueless there, with no means of getting back up.

[ATC]

As a kid and young adult I was stupid enough to be in way too many fights, and not one ever went to the ground. I have fought bullies, street thugs, wrestlers and other martial artists and not one of them ever went to the ground.

I have had people try to take it there but was always able to keep the fight up until the loser went to the ground and got stomped or pounded until the fight was over.

Real fights are not like you see on UFC or any controlled sport. Once you go to the ground then beating starts with all available. There are no rules to protect you from wild elbow, feet, fist, palm strikes, and hammer fist, not to mention the knees. A real fight is crazy and even if skilled in some MA or training most likely that goes out the window.

The one good thing about being trained or doing a MA that helps you in a real fight is that your body is usually more hardened than that of the person not trained and you should have more endurance stamina. Those are the things that will win you the fight, being able to outlast your opponent.

Most of my fights were wins due to me being faster, stronger, and in better shape than the people that I was fighting. Even the ones that outweighed me and looked like they should win did not due to no conditioning.

Now that I am smarter now I know the best way to win a fight is to not have one at all. Fighting does not pay off and even if you win you lose. Trust me I know, but that is another story.

[Xinglu]

If you wanna roll around with dudes that's fine man. I said that from my perspective it's a failure. I can't for the life of me wrap my head around going to the ground or allowing yourself to be taken down in a fight. And yes, I have taken judo from the same sensei who taught me karate so I know both sides of the argument. I'm still not ever going to let a fight go to the ground or allow myself to be taken down though.

I guess you had just better hope no one blindsides you and puts you on the ground. I also hope you are as sure footed as a pack mule because it's not always even ground when you are attacked. I'm just saying that you can't control all the circumstances. What dictates a failure and a success once combat ensues is how the fight ends not how it progressed.

[Xinglu]

As a kid and young adult I was stupid enough to be in way too many fights, and not one ever went to the ground. I have fought bullies, street thugs, wrestlers and other martial artists and not one of them ever went to the ground.

I have had people try to take it there but was always able to keep the fight up until the loser went to the ground and got stomped or pounded until the fight was over.

Real fights are not like you see on UFC or any controlled sport. Once you go to the ground then beating starts with all available. There are no rules to protect you from wild elbow, feet, fist, palm strikes, and hammer fist, not to mention the knees. A real fight is crazy and even if skilled in some MA or training most likely that goes out the window.

The one good thing about being trained or doing a MA that helps you in a real fight is that your body is usually more hardened than that of the person not trained and you should have more endurance stamina. Those are the things that will win you the fight, being able to outlast your opponent.

Most of my fights were wins due to me being faster, stronger, and in better shape than the people that I was fighting. Even the ones that outweighed me and looked like they should win did not due to no conditioning.

Now that I am smarter now I know the best way to win a fight is to not have one at all. Fighting does not pay off and even if you win you lose. Trust me I know, but that is another story.

Yup, everyone in the fight is a loser. I concur whole heartedly.

Having been in my fair share of fights as a kid, I'd say about a third went to the ground. One time it was because the kid step out from a corner behind me and took a bat to my legs. Took them right out from under me and fractured my tibia it is really hard to stand with a fractured tibia, let me tell you! Another time, I slipped on sandy concrete (that stuff is pretty slick!). I'm no klutz either, was an athlete growing up, but never once was I in a fight with ideal circumstances!

It is good to have a ground game. Call it emergency preparedness - if you're in a fight things are bad, but if you slip or get knocked down, things are worse and you better know how to cope!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Each and every violent encounter is unique. So some will go to the ground and others will be fought standing up. Bottom line you need to be well rounded and able to work in either situation. So in my mind that means you need to train for both. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif (ie. standing and grappling)

[sgtmac_46]

All fights don't end up on the ground......but any fight could very easily at any time. All it takes is one guy grabbing the other and falling to the ground, or one or both people tripping over the scenery

[MJS]

As a kid and young adult I was stupid enough to be in way too many fights, and not one ever went to the ground. I have fought bullies, street thugs, wrestlers and other martial artists and not one of them ever went to the ground.

I have had people try to take it there but was always able to keep the fight up until the loser went to the ground and got stomped or pounded until the fight was over.

Real fights are not like you see on UFC or any controlled sport. Once you go to the ground then beating starts with all available. There are no rules to protect you from wild elbow, feet, fist, palm strikes, and hammer fist, not to mention the knees. A real fight is crazy and even if skilled in some MA or training most likely that goes out the window.

The one good thing about being trained or doing a MA that helps you in a real fight is that your body is usually more hardened than that of the person not trained and you should have more endurance stamina. Those are the things that will win you the fight, being able to outlast your opponent.

Most of my fights were wins due to me being faster, stronger, and in better shape than the people that I was fighting. Even the ones that outweighed me and looked like they should win did not due to no conditioning.

Now that I am smarter now I know the best way to win a fight is to not have one at all. Fighting does not pay off and even if you win you lose. Trust me I know, but that is another story.

I hope that you didn't get the impression, from my posts at least, that I was suggesting that we should go to the ground. A simple look at my past posts, will show that I've said that I've felt that its important to have a ground understanding, that if you end up there, the #1 goal should be to get back to your feet, and that you shouldn't spend time looking for a sub.

What I do find interesting is when you said once it goes down, thats when the beating starts. I'm assuming that you're the one talking about giving the beating? However, keep in mind, that if the shoe was on the other foot, that its important to know how to survive, how to get back up safely.

On the flip side, if it was always so easy to defend the takedown, I find it interesting that so many of the early UFC non grapplers, had such a difficult time defending the takedown. Now, if we look at someone like Chuck, he has some excellent takedown defense, which comes from him having a grappling background.

[blindsage]

Just for the record, because someone needs to make the point...again. Ground fighting is generally a part of grappling, grappling does not mean strictly ground fighting.

[ATC]

I hope that you didn't get the impression, from my posts at least, that I was suggesting that we should go to the ground. A simple look at my past posts, will show that I've said that I've felt that its important to have a ground understanding, that if you end up there, the #1 goal should be to get back to your feet, and that you shouldn't spend time looking for a sub.

What I do find interesting is when you said once it goes down, thats when the beating starts. I'm assuming that you're the one talking about giving the beating? However, keep in mind, that if the shoe was on the other foot, that its important to know how to survive, how to get back up safely.

On the flip side, if it was always so easy to defend the takedown, I find it interesting that so many of the early UFC non grapplers, had such a difficult time defending the takedown. Now, if we look at someone like Chuck, he has some excellent takedown defense, which comes from him having a grappling background.No I was not stating anything in regards to any post prior. I was just stating my points. And yes I agree with your points as well.

[Xinglu]

Just for the record, because someone needs to make the point...again. Ground fighting is generally a part of grappling, grappling does not mean strictly ground fighting.

I already did (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1221782&postcount=23)

[Omar B]

I guess you had just better hope no one blindsides you and puts you on the ground. I also hope you are as sure footed as a pack mule because it's not always even ground when you are attacked. I'm just saying that you can't control all the circumstances. What dictates a failure and a success once combat ensues is how the fight ends not how it progressed.

It's called situational awareness man, not gonna happen. This topic is about "do all fights end up on the ground." From my experience, it's never happened to me so no. I also see it as a strategic failure ending up on the ground. I know the waters in this thread are all muddied and people must think that my saying "I" somehow applies to them, but it simply applies to me, my skill level and experience in fights. I've never ended up on the ground, nor do I plan to, it's never even gotten far enough for someone to hit me.

[Xinglu]

It's called situational awareness man, not gonna happen. This topic is about "do all fights end up on the ground." From my experience, it's never happened to me so no. I also see it as a strategic failure ending up on the ground. I know the waters in this thread are all muddied and people must think that my saying "I" somehow applies to them, but it simply applies to me, my skill level and experience in fights. I've never ended up on the ground, nor do I plan to, it's never even gotten far enough for someone to hit me.

Right on man. :rolleyes:

[kingkong89]

One it depends on how long the fight lasts
second most fights do go to the ground mainly due to the growing popularity to the mma style

[K831]

I don't think most fights go to the ground, but it can happen... Untrained fighters get nervous when they get hit once and tend to bear hug / clinch / tackle and then roll around on the ground sometimes, guess that's why you see it on youtube vids.

I have been very successful keeping street/bar fights standing, the lack of certain rules used by sporting events make it much easier to punish the would be ground fighter for his attempts, often ending the fight right there.

I was, however, taken by surprise once and slammed on the parking lot pavement pretty hard by a wrestler. It never should have happened but it did. Fortunately, like most grapplers, he started working conventionally and it took only a moment for me to get my hands to areas he never even considered training to protect. That is another great gift MMA schools offer the rest of us; opponents whose training has never even mentioned or considered certain real world options that we drill and ingrain every day.

I think it is a waste of time to work most submission grappling and conventional GNP for self defense, it is of great benefit though, to work your dirty ground fighting-hurry-get-to-your-feet stuff though.

I hear guys all the time at the gym, work etc talk about how "I'll pull guard and choke him out" and I smile and say, few.... one more guy with a false sense of security I don't have to worry about.

[Stonecold]

Most of the fights that I have seen go to the ground , were drunken fool's trying to be tough guy's at the bar and tripping, falling all over each other or school yard fights ( all inexperenced fighters ) . Working as a bouncer for many years I have been in and seen some very serious fights, most only one person goes to the ground, although there are exceptions to every thing...

[blindsage]

second most fights do go to the ground mainly due to the growing popularity to the mma style
This is based on the assumption that most people fighting train typical MMA styles. Bad assumption.

[chinto]

do all fights go to the ground? NO. and when two trained fighters fight, and I do not mean spar or have a sport match like in a cage fight or the ufc, it is over in seconds! Not minutes, and the first to hit the ground is in very very serious trouble already!

that said any fight could conceivably end up there, but unless you are a LEO who has a lot of back up, going to the ground when you can avoid it, is a very bad idea I think. this is of course once again talking about a self defense situation.

[MattJ]

Some studies to check out:

http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/

[Twin Fist]

yes ALL fights go to the ground, and yes, there is a Santa Clause

[ATC]

Some studies to check out:

http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/

The first study is a police study and can be looked at a bit differet than a fight. In the case of the police they are trying to apprehend or subbdu you. They are not looking to win a fight. More times than not they want you on the ground and have more than one officer assisting in getting you to the ground to contain you. Their purpose is to get you on the ground and contain you, they don't want you running, they don't want to have to chase you. So I have to dissmiss that study as the data is skewed that is being used.

[shihansmurf]

This is based on the assumption that most people fighting train typical MMA styles. Bad assumption.

QFT!

I think that all fights have the potential to end up on the ground, but I've been in an unfortunate number of them over the years and few of them were resolved with us wrestling around or doing any sort of ground and pound. Whil I don't have extensive statistics to support this and I realize that what I'm about to say is anecdotal, in my experience most fights involve folks that are poorly trained. Lots a looping punches, rushes, poor tackle attempts, bear hugs, personal space invasions, pushes, headlocks, that sort of thing.

None of this isn't to say that one shouldn't prepare for the possibility that they may face a trained opponent, even one with solid ability in all ranges, but the odds of facing a cage fighter in a typical bar brawl is pretty small. I would think. Preparing to fight a person like that is all well and good but generally far outside the realm of why most of us train, and outside the normal realm of self-defense scenarios that we are apt to encounter.

Developing solid punching, kicking, and blocking skills will serve most people rather well in most self defense situations. Training grappling and ground work is fine as well, it just isn't a magic bullet skill set in a real world violent encounter.

Mark

[K831]

QFT!

While I don't have extensive statistics to support this and I realize that what I'm about to say is anecdotal...

Mark

When we compile the "anecdotal" evidence of martial artists on this site/thread we have a trend suggesting that most fights do not go to the ground.

This seems to be the case for two (anecdotal evidence) reasons;

1.) Despite what we see in MMA competitions sometimes, martial artists training with SD in mind are actually pretty successful at keeping the fight standing

2.) Martial artists training for SD purposes clearly do not want to go to the ground.

While anecdotal evidence can be more difficult to quantify, and sometimes academics look down their noses at it.... I find, especially when looking at a niche, sub culture or set of particular and less common experiences that anecdotal evidence is often more illuminating and telling.

[MJS]

Its like I've said earlier....train and prepare for the worst and dont assume anything. Wrestling is taught is many high schools and colleges, and MMA is big right now, so the odds of getting into a fight with someone who has been exposed to grappling are good. Of course, do what you can to avoid being taken down, but I dont think that we should be over confident in ourselves and say that we'll never be taken down. I dont know about anyone else, but I can't predict the future, so who knows what'll happen. I could trip, get taken down while defending against a grab, whatever.

Learn enough about the ground to get back up safely. As for the studies...well, I'm not putting all my faith in them, especially if they're police based studies. In other words...for them, that is probably where they're going to end up, to control the suspect to cuff them. I'm not looking to control someone to cuff them, I'm looking to defend myself.

[sfs982000]

If you are in a fight that ends up on the ground, in my eyes you've failed. You've not kept the distance/range of the fight where you can control it.

I wouldn't say a person failed by taking the fight to the ground. Personally for me it wouldn't be the ideal situation (especially if there were multiple attackers), but if the person were getting the better with the striking and/or was a little bigger or stronger taking it to the ground could be the advantage you would need. The situation ultimately will dictate the proper course of action.