TMA class warm-up: Traditional or Modern Calisthenics?

[ven1911]

I pose this question out of my own general curiosities; When warming up a class (assuming your dojo does so) Do you or your instructor perform traditionally taught exercises or do they incorperate modern exercises such as crossfit or the like.

I have been to several training facilities which have done both and I was wondering which would be better for a TMA structure/class benefit.

[Flying Crane]

maybe you could give some descriptions of what you are thinking of as traditional vs. modern warmups?

I personally am not familiar with "crossfit"

[suicide]

i think a lil bit of both is the ticket %-}

[Live True]

I'm going to assume that by "traditional vs modern" you are referring to traditional warm up exercises for a particular style vs modern athletic training and sports science.

For example, in my style, Uechi, we have warm up exercises known as Junbi Undo and Hojo Undo. Some of these, in the light of modern sports knowledge, have actually been shown likely to contribute to damage to knees, etc. Then there are other "traditional" warm ups and practices such as makiwara training, weighted jars, etc.

I seem to remember another discussion on these forums about crossfit, and I think it's simply a cardio/weight program that seeks to incorporate many of the benefits of modern cross training and interval training. Here's what I found online: http://journal.crossfit.com/2002/04/foundations.tpl
From this page: "...Cardiovascular and Respiratory endurance, Stamina, Strength, Flexibility, Power, Speed, Coordination, Agility, Balance, and Accuracy."

To answer your question, in my recent and limited experience, we do a bit of both and adapt the more traditional exercises based on understandings gained from modern sports science.

I like what my sensei and I discussed last class. We do Junbi undo and calisthenics to develop the will. We do makiwara and bag work to (slowly and over months and years) develop inner muscular and bone strength. We do Hojo Undo to develop stamina and drill muscle strength/memory. We do kata to develop mental clarity, strategy, and focus. They all fit together and have thier time/purpose.

Does that answer your question at all?

[punisher73]

To quote a famous instructor on here: "It depends".

I think that whatever warm-up exercise is used it should be related to the activity at hand. You are training a martial arts class and not a gym class. If you only have a limited time it is better that you teach them HOW to exercise on their own then spending alot of time in class doing calisthenics.

Or better yet incorporate the movements to BE the warm up. For example starting with a front snap kick at knee height and lower intensity and then as the muscle warms up increase the height applicable to your style along with the speed and intensity. Maybe have them kneel down on one knee and push themselves up on the other leg and then do the kick.

I don't know, I just think that class time could be better spent working on the techs themselves to improve.

[Xue Sheng]

All I will say is I have had both from the same Sifu early he used traditional and later he used Modern Calisthenics and the modern Calisthenics were not bad but the Traditional damn near killed me but I got more out of them as it applies to MA.

Basically the modern Calisthenics were actually much easier

[Omar B]

Personally I hate the whole group warm up thing that wastes the first 10 minutes of class. You should do your own warm up so from the moment class starts it's on. But yeah, I do a more modern routine.

[zDom]

Personally I hate the whole group warm up thing that wastes the first 10 minutes of class. You should do your own warm up so from the moment class starts it's on. But yeah, I do a more modern routine.

Yes, you SHOULD.

But unfortunately the fact is, MOST students simply will NOT warm themselves up properly.

If you let them "learn the hard way" and suffer injuries, you end up with an empty mat.

Hence, most instructors just deal with it by including a warmup as part of the training session package.

[still learning]

Hello, With some many scientific studies, modern training materials, today athlete's are better train because of these NEW programs...

To stay in the past is to remaim in the past....

Some traditional excercise still makes sense base on time....and new ways can also improve the over all classes..

Aloha, Off course one has to research this further...what is best over all..

[ven1911]

Thanks everyone, very good responses. However LiveTrue hit the nail on the head with his post. Yes, you did answer my question, thank you.

I am all for warming up, especially when you reach a certain age (when I was very young I thought that is was a waste of class time as well OmarB). I agree that people are not joining dojos to workout, however I believe the class should be conditioned or prepared for class with a warm up.

I simply wanted know if TMA classes have gone the way of modern fads (such as crossfit).

LiveTrue, if you have time I would like to hear about some of your Junbi undo, makiwara, and Hojo Undo training (PM if you like).

[Omar B]

I firmly believe that after you are out of a beginner class you should have the warm up routine down and should be able to do it yourself.

[Xue Sheng]

I simply wanted know if TMA classes have gone the way of modern fads (such as crossfit).

Based on the TMA schools I have most recently been associated with.....Simple answer, no.

[Xinglu]

Based on the TMA schools I have most recently been associated with.....Simple answer, no.

Yes, but we xingyi men are notorious for not being swayed easily from our routines ;)

Personally, I think that a mix of both is a good thing. Just because something is new doesn't mean it is better (or worse for that matter), we should be open-minded and incorporate what works and leave out what doesn't.

[Bruno@MT]

Personally I hate the whole group warm up thing that wastes the first 10 minutes of class. You should do your own warm up so from the moment class starts it's on. But yeah, I do a more modern routine.

In theory I agree with you, but sometimes that just isn't feasible.
We work out in a communal MA gym. We have alloted time slices, and we have to wait for the earlier class to finish first. So there is no real opportunity to get warmed up right before class.

I could warm up at home, then drive to the dojo, then stand still until we get in. By that time I would have cooled off again.

[Bruno@MT]

In my dojo, warming up consists of some light stretching and loosening up (and some situps, pushups etc) and then we often start with basic kihon to get the blood flowing. That way, warming up itself is useful as practise, since basic kihon is one fo the most important things to repeat.

Basic kihon is very important, and it is ideal for warming up as well.

[xJOHNx]

Live true: would you mind elaborating abit on Junbi Undo and Hojo Undo? If you want to that is. I've googled both terms (my japanese is very lousy) and I came up with stretching and powertraining (although the later also seemed to gave a hit about woodwork).

We run for warm up, then we do some strength exercices for the thighs (as it makes the basic stands easier) and some general core training. Sometimes we do tabata or work with shinai's that have been made heavier.

Warm up is important to prevent injuries, so it's part of the game. Although most students seem to stop doing it, because it is too hard..

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, but we xingyi men are notorious for not being swayed easily from our routines ;)

Personally, I think that a mix of both is a good thing. Just because something is new doesn't mean it is better (or worse for that matter), we should be open-minded and incorporate what works and leave out what doesn't.

Xingyiquan has nothing to do with it what-so-ever.... now if you don't mind this is cutting in to my Santi Shi training and copious rounds of wuxing :D

You are likely correct, and with me, throw in some rather old school Taiji training and I am guessing I am less likely than most to change. And as painful as this is for me to admit, I do agree that there is good in bad in both old school training and new school thinking about training. My only real concern in discussions like this is that some will throw out the old school stuff just because they feel it is old and the new way MUST be better :rolleyes:. And in some cases it might be but most certainly not in all cases. And I am also of the opinion that many of the old TMA that people complain about as being ineffective has a lot to do with the shedding of old styles of training that go with those arts that are harder than the new "Scientific" method because we all know in all cases that easier is more effective ;)

[Em MacIntosh]

If you consider stretching part of the warmup I think most of what I've done in any martial art was based on yoga, which I would consider traditional but modified. As for the warmup it's just a matter of increasing the elasticity of the muscles to help prevent damage and this is done by repeatedly using the muscle progressively harder until you can put out an adequate amount of force at an adequate speed without injury and are ready to train. Perhaps I haven't studied one or the other enough but I see little or no difference.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well seeing as I am currently engaege in a discussion on Judoforum about what defines Traditional Jujutsu, traditional is a broad term.

I'll say what we do is a blend.

One of my past gripes with my former Sensei is he had us do the same , exact stretchin routine that he learned in 1964 for everyclass and as a personal trainer I pointed out how antiquated, potentially harmfull and incomplete it was. (I waited till I was a 4th dan to push this BTW)

When ever I taught class ( about a 1/3rd the time) I did a different routine or let the guys do a solo warmup.

Now that we have our own Dojo, are genral warm up is as follows.

We starte with a blend of Eishen's Yoga and more conventional Yoga for 10-15 minutes and then we do Ukemi (Falls and rolls) for anywherwe between 5-20 minutes (Yes that can be on the longish side but Ukemi is a very important part of Jujutsu, both for the safety reasons but good Ukemi also makes your actual waza better.) Now sometimes I skip this and let the guys do a solo warm up for 10-15 minutes.

Then I tend to spend 10-30 minutes on technique reveiw and drill before going into the main subject of our class, further greasing the crew up to better obsorb the lessons.

Shugyo!

[Xinglu]

Xingyiquan has nothing to do with it what-so-ever.... now if you don't mind this is cutting in to my Santi Shi training and copious rounds of wuxing :D

You are likely correct, and with me, throw in some rather old school Taiji training and I am guessing I am less likely than most to change. And as painful as this is for me to admit, I do agree that there is good in bad in both old school training and new school thinking about training. My only real concern in discussions like this is that some will throw out the old school stuff just because they feel it is old and the new way MUST be better :rolleyes:. And in some cases it might be but most certainly not in all cases. And I am also of the opinion that many of the old TMA that people complain about as being ineffective has a lot to do with the shedding of old styles of training that go with those arts that are harder than the new "Scientific" method because we all know in all cases that easier is more effective ;)

To paraphrase JFK: We train "not because it is easy, but because it is hard." It is a fact that we do not get better with out challenging ourselves. This holds very true especially in conditioning, techniques, stretching, cardio (to build endurance). New methods or old methods, with out difficulty there can be no improvement.

Some of thew methods are safer than the old, some are not. Some compliment the old training methods very well, some do not. In the end, it should be looked at objectively on a case by case basis.

[still learning]

Hello, ..we were doing a knee rotation excercises...and a new student who is experience in physcial therpy mention to our Head Instructor..

This is NOT a good excercise...for the knees....(yet people have being doing them for years) ....she said it is BAD for knees..

Anyone can give more information on this?

Aloha,

[Xinglu]

One of my past gripes with my former Sensei is he had us do the same , exact stretchin routine that he learned in 1964 for everyclass and as a personal trainer I pointed out how antiquated, potentially harmfull and incomplete it was.

It is also worth noting that, stretching (as with weight training or any resistance training for that matter) requires a somewhat varied routine, otherwise the body adapts and the training is less efficient.

[Xue Sheng]

To paraphrase JFK: We train "not because it is easy, but because it is hard." It is a fact that we do not get better with out challenging ourselves. This holds very true especially in conditioning, techniques, stretching, cardio (to build endurance). New methods or old methods, with out difficulty there can be no improvement.

Some of thew methods are safer than the old, some are not. Some compliment the old training methods very well, some do not. In the end, it should be looked at objectively on a case by case basis.

Agreed

But when looking at some of the older methods, such as things like Santi Shi, it is also good to look at exactly what it is trying to develop. Is there a more modern exercise to develop leg strength?? Yes there is, but is that all that santi shi trying to develop? No it is doing much more.

With most things TMA, particularly TCMA I find that there is a gross lack of understanding of what is being done and instead of trying to understand it people change it to what they "think" it was doing and in that process they miss the target.

However with that said I do agree that some of the traditional training exercises are not really safe and that some of the modern exercises are more effective but then it still comes back to what was the originator of the traditional method trying to do and it could be that he simply did not have the knowledge or the available equipment to do it any better or it could be that he had a deeper type of training in mind.

[Xinglu]

Agreed

But when looking at some of the older methods, such as things like Santi Shi, it is also good to look at exactly what it is trying to develop. Is there a more modern exercise to develop leg strength?? Yes there is, but is that all that santi shi trying to develop? No it is doing much more.

With most things TMA, particularly TCMA I find that there is a gross lack of understanding of what is being done and instead of trying to understand it people change it to what they "think" it was doing and in that process they miss the target.

However with that said I do agree that some of the traditional training exercises are not really safe and that some of the modern exercises are more effective but then it still comes back to what was the originator of the traditional method trying to do and it could be that he simply did not have the knowledge or the available equipment to do it any better or it cold be that he had a deeper type of training in mind.


Well, especially in neijia you have the TCM approach to what is being done in each and every movement. A person with proper TCM understanding though can look at modern exercises and find their neijia qualities. I get all :soapbox: and :tantrum: with even a little :shooter: when people get down on TCMA out of ignorance. It is worse when I see someone practicing TCMA and don't even have a basic understanding of the flow of qi. I'm not looking to see OMDs but they do need basic TCM knowledge or they are missing 50% (or more) of their art!

[Live True]

Thanks everyone, very good responses. However LiveTrue hit the nail on the head with his post. Yes, you did answer my question, thank you.
[...]LiveTrue, if you have time I would like to hear about some of your Junbi undo, makiwara, and Hojo Undo training (PM if you like).

"her post" actually...but no worries. I appreciate the offer to discuss via PM, but I will post what I know in this and following posts so all can discuss...I'm learning some good stuff as wel and believe the sharing of knowledge is a good thing


Live true: would you mind elaborating abit on Junbi Undo and Hojo Undo? If you want to that is. I've googled both terms (my japanese is very lousy) and I came up with stretching and powertraining (although the later also seemed to gave a hit about woodwork).[...]Warm up is important to prevent injuries, so it's part of the game. Although most students seem to stop doing it, because it is too hard..

I wouldn't say hard, but it can get monotonous....but as other's have stated...mixing up the warm up is as important as occassionally mixing up the workout itself to prevent muscle adaptation and plateaus.


Hello, ..we were doing a knee rotation excercises...and a new student who is experience in physcial therpy mention to our Head Instructor..

This is NOT a good excercise...for the knees....(yet people have being doing them for years) ....she said it is BAD for knees..

Anyone can give more information on this?

I don't mind posting what I know and have learned, with the caution that I consider myself still a beginner (only about 2 1/2 years into training). I am posting information from the website I built for my last dojo on the listings of junbi and hojo undo first, then will explain what I am currently doing with my sensei now, but first:

still learning, it is my understanding that the knee rotation exercise puts bad strain on the knees and ligaments, and moves them in directions they don't naturally move. I believe, but would encrouage you to consult an expert like your PT mentioned, it hyperextends the knee in multiple directions.

More specifically it is often done as a warm up exercise when muscles and connective tissue is still cold and more fragile. Recent studies in stretching encourage more of a progressive repetition of actions you will be doing or cardio based warm up and then stretching, as a way to allow muscles and connective tissue to warm up prior to placing it under direct strain.

Some of the junbi undo I will post are not recommend for those specific reasons (and because some of them encouraged "bouncing" which is also hard on cold connective tissues)...and it's why we now focus more on progressively warming up and doing specific actions prior to any intensive stretching...most intensive stretching is done at the end of class, actually as part of cool down.

Again, I would encourage you to consult a sports medicine expert on the specifics...but that is the little understanding I have from readings, etc.

hope that is helpful.

[Live True]

from website (http://www.glasheensasianarts.com/terms-lists/bunkai-drills.htm)

Junbi Undo (warm up exercises):
Note: Several of these are no longer recommended due to their injury-prone nature. Use with caution

Ashi sakio ageru undo -heel pivot
Kagato o ageru undo - heel lift
Ashikubi o mawasu undo- foot/ankle circle exercise
Hiza mae yoko undo- knee lift and turn exercise
Ashio Uechi nanameni abary undo- straight leg kicking
Taio mae ni taosu undo- waist scooping exercise
Koshino nenten- body stretching
Udeo mae yoko shitani nobasu undo- arm thrusting
Kubi no undo- neck rolling/stretching exercise
Shinko kyu-deep breathing


Hojo Undo (beginning exercises):

Sokuto geri- side of foot/blade foot kick (can be a front or side kick)
Shomen geri- pointed toe front kicks
Furi Zuki (mawashi zuki)- round house punches
Hajiki uke hiraken zuki- high block/flat fist punch
Shomen zuki - seiken front punch/palm block
Soto uke, shuto uchi, ura uchi, shoken zuki - outside block, knife hand strike, back fist, one knuckle punch
Hiji zuki - elbow striking/blocking
Tenshin zensoku geri - turn and get off line, wauke, kick with front leg
Tenshin kosoku geri - turn and get off line, wauke, kick with back leg
Koino shippo tatte uchi - wrist blocks/strikes, four directions, perpendicular
Koino shippo yoko uchi - wrist blocks/strikes, side to side "fish tail" blocks
Shomen Hagiki - stepping (sliding) eye strikes
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I will note that there are variations on how to actually perform many of these actions from dojo to dojo, but the basic motions should be roughly the same. I can go into more detail on some, but not all of the above exercises (all of the hojo undo, only some of the junbi undo). Actually, the website has a very detailed explanation of the hojo undo exercises for those interested.

[Live True]

Ven,
A typical warm up with my current sensei goes something like this, with variations and we do this in roughly 15 min so it's a quick progression:


bow in
shiko kyo (this facilitates setting up mental focus as well as initiating the flow of energy or Qi as Xue and Xingli mention)
kubi no undo-neck rolling and stretching, which involves up/down, tilt side to side/rotate side to side, rotate back and down (slowly/carefully on this last one)
I think the next few are variations on some of junbi undo, with some aikido and traditional uechi practices thrown in

arm/shoulder/chest warm ups using weight of body to throw/circle/move
leg stretching from front/side, back stances using bar/fence
wrist locks with progressive horse stance practice
front/side/back kicks focusing on one point/balance (fairly light power as kicking air and that can be harmful)
arm thrusts (basically repetition of opening Sanchin sequence with dynamic tension)
arm rubbing and arm pounding
leg pounding

pushups-(4-5 types)

alternating with situps, bicycle kicks, and back lifts

Makiwara/heavy bag-light repetitive punching meant to condition deep tissues and muscles...NOT trying to break skin or create huge callouses

run through various Uechi strikes/kicks to condition the many different surfaces used in movement and combat
for example: ridge hand, back fist, fingertips, front kick ball of foot, front kick toe, blade foot kick, etc.

hojo undo-repetitive technique practice done on both sides
Then we begin the actual work on kata, kumite, and whatever sensei wants to focus on for that class.

It is not always the same, but that's a general example.

My prior sensei would do more junbi undo, particularly heel pivot (standing and pivoting on heel to open/close foot and loosen up ankles), heel lift (alternate lifting of heels with straight legs that emphasized foot/hip connections), knee lift and turn exercise (I beleive this is where the traditional knee circle may fit in...but this variation involved slowly lifting knee up, slowly extending leg, rotating leg to side, back to front, bend, grab foot, lift up toward head....emphasized balance/leg strength/flexibility/height), waist scooping(incorporates breathing and stretching...in this version you bent from waist and scooped arms back and up 2-3 times, some bouncing, lifted up and did dynamic waist twisting with clapsed arms in opposing direction).

I hope that makes sense...please feel free to ask questions and I will answer to the best of my knowledge.

[jks9199]

Personally I hate the whole group warm up thing that wastes the first 10 minutes of class. You should do your own warm up so from the moment class starts it's on. But yeah, I do a more modern routine.
I use group warmups to prepare students for the specific plans I have for class. I also use them to teach exercises that the students can do on their own, and to ensure that people are doing exercises properly. They're not a waste of time...

[ven1911]

"her post" actually...but no worries.

Whoops! My apologies :)

Thank you for posting your input, it is much appreciated. As long as traditional warm-ups do not pose a threat of injury I will continue to train in this manner. I thoroughly enjoy them over the calisthenics of today. I am glad to see others do as well.